The welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing. Thanks for listening, I'm your hosts, nick and with me, as always, is a man who still has the euro toilet paper. He is the cap

but I still have a lot of leaves it's good to be seen, and it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for town of france, all right, I'm excited, because we are lucky enough to be sipping on cold cans of beautifully crafted dort wondered rolled. This is it smooth logger that strikes a delicate balance between sweet, more and dry, hop, flavors barrage grade a big five bottle caps and take thanks goes out to our garage beer fund. A friend. First, up cheers to robin and alicia in plymouth, new Hampshire and a big shout to christopher b and parts unknown. Also in the parts that are unknown captain we have Craig f. Next, we have kelly and honey bear in Tampa. This, of course, begs the question. Captain who do you think is sweeter kelly, her honey bear. I think neither I think, justine from up way. Australia is sweeter. An

ass, a certainly not least, we have any and samir na tennessee Amy says she has listened to every single episode of true crime garage If you haven't listened to every episode check us out on the stitcher app, you can listen free every show, and we have a bonus, show called off the record on stitcher premium, and that is enough of the business alright everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime,

the one thing that very quickly comes up in most profiles: the the level of concealment of the victim of the body, often indicates how well known the offender was to the victim, how close the two were related and where we were. We have here. If tying the bodies up post mortem, making smaller packages, making sure that those packages stay under the water it

they conceals the bodies in its somebody, taking on added risk to themselves getting caught by. Taking that time to conceal the bodies and manner. If it were some maniac from the truck stop would have done what he wanted to do and then just fled the area exactly right, yeah and that that's especially when you consider you Tom other, the they were taking again. This is not of a remote forest. This person was was due, All that worked conceal those bodies with semi trucks pulling up in and out of a truck wash hundred feet from them people playing in their backyards hundred feet in the other direction, like all It is happening around them and are doing in the only reason to do that is typically what I The sea is.

not necessarily that people know that this individual was with the victims right before they died, but that that's individual thinks people might know that he was with the victims. Right before they died, so so say say who would ever say. Person x sees the other boys cross the piping go in there a person acts gets out of out of their vehicle, your walks across people's yards walks across the pipe which is in broad daylight, In view of the mayfair apartments walks into the woods, and then when the boys in then is like oh shit, I dont know if anyone saw me do that, you know if they weren't going there with the intention of killing them, which I don't believe they did. So now they think. I think people know that I was with them, so that explains the risk in the concealment in the fact that they'll can I gotta make sure when people come here to look that this is not where they find

boys bodies, because someone could say hey, I just saw you go in there and now the bodies are there. I think that's why the lot we see that level of concealment nice. I think that's why we see even the bikes thrown into the body was part of the concealment, because this person, I needed a bab and have a backup plan or somebody said hey. I saw you going in there that could say yeah I was searching. I didn't find them in there, whereas you know if they fi The boy's body is very clearly quickly and they were there, then they're obviously going to get paid for the crime. So it's it. So it's a way for them to get to put some distance between themselves, both both geographic distance and I'm away from them to delay the the bodies being found so that they can that they're, not They ve not known to be the last people with them in that location in it all comes actor there being a personal relationship with them. There's someone that people would expect to be with those boys at that time, which is typically someone who knows them now, Lot of people would say in this cast of characters because them

a situation like you're you're, making all these great points of war it was so or not. Why? But the fact that it was such a I, I know what the word is: a shit storm of investigation You have an individual like the guy and boge angles, where what's your thought after looking into this case now on an individual like that, I think that Mr Bowe is a is a red herring. We we we're gonna broke down. The podcast during season. Five about the timing. the terrain and then you'll see on the tv series we actually where she brought in and an ex special forces person that that navigates terrain like that for a living and had them make the actual run that that the boat jingles man would have had to make, and

in autumn alleviate. The determination was that there is no way that this guy had any connection to the crime whatsoever for it. For a number of reasons I mean the blood that was on him. While there wasn't any blood on the boys the way they were killed, and even with what we found in four mario. The tv series was the mud there I have been either and you'll see. He is when you're listed are listening to this, they will have already seen it you'll see this weekend. Why that's the case? Is it because you could have done everything from. And not be in the water. No, it's me as the water, so we went very similar conditions when the water was murky and gross the you know that you have to cross the water to get df across two creeks actually to get to bo jingles. If you were taking the route from the crime scene.

follow the buy you all the way down there and we expected are our special forces guy to come out covered in caked in mud. Like MR bowe jingles was, but when he came out he was perfectly clean and it was because of the water from crossing the by you actually just just rinsed, all that mud right off of them and we we try to things were lay. I was it possible that just the way that it worked out is is what you cross the by you to go in both jangled. You come out no matter how much we take more on him when she came up other side. You are clean, so most likely we Would you don't necessarily see it on the show, but we determined in the process was where this guy probably came from was from the the the open field. to the it would be the south of of the bo jingles restaurant there's a little ditch there and the guy probably stump

do that ditch on his way to the restaurant in there you can get yourself covered in maso. The the boys are placed in the water for concealment, the bikes to bicycles, belonging to two of the boys, are placed in the water for concealment as well. What do in this might not be important because it may have already been left elsewhere beforehand. but wasn't christopher byers on a skateboard at some point that evening it was at skateboard ever located or or again, if it's even important too. Yeah. I mean that he was on a skateboard at some point and it was located. I think it was found this down there from his house yeah, all it was was dad. Bookmark buyers. Excuse me was dad. Mark byers actually found him riding the skateboard down the middle of the road. That's why he took him home and gave him the weapon. So

he was off the skateboard at that point, there was another indication that he was writing an earlier. The now writing escape went around with the girl him location, freeman down the road from him, but there's no, no it. asian of being on the skateboard after he was punished for it being of the bikes, though the bikes where they were found, helps paint a very clear picture of the. While over answer- which, which really is another thing that should have tipp police off, they are gone wrong way. So, unlike so the boys leave their bikes on the on the ground south of the by you. They don't the bikes, never crossed the by you with them. so they go over there. So the killer finds the boys, you know where they're at and kill them now, presumably the killer didn't murder in mind when they went that way, I don't think anybody went across that pipe again, I'm going to kill these three boys right now. I think

happen out of out of rage or was probably started as a mistake, but my point is: they wouldn't have thrown the bikes into the by you, yet the bikes get from him the by EU as part of concealment, which tells you, after the boys were killed, and after the boys were put into the water and air the crime scenes concealed after that, the killer throws the bikes in the water, which tells you that the killer kay and went from the neighborhood not the highway, where the west Memphis three came and went from that they were saying right from like the truck was from the the highway from over marion the killer had one when, when twenty exited the crime scene, went back across the by the button. The pipe sees the bikes there and knows those bikes are going to be a clear tip off the that's for the boys are They throw the bikes into the by you, so no one knows to go. Look in that direction, and you talked about your test of.

taking the guy in mud and having them run through. through the water and so on and so forth, talk about your the interesting test you did regarding was. It was a pig or chicken that you did in the in the water down there yeah. So we in this was this. Was prior to the the the of tv series we just did this when I started my investigation thin and mike my co host and producer, and our music guy shane yoda, who happened to be from tennessee not far from there. We all spent weak and wes, Memphis and you'll out. I look the medical evidence- and I know that there's there's the theory out there and what seems to be pretty much scientific proof proven evidence that most of the the the injuries on the boys came post mortem from animal activity, namely from turtles and then peoples well, that's crazy! That would never happen, and you know that that the people who believe the west Memphis three are guilty fight that. So I want to go two things. First, I wanted to know a. Are there turtles in this by you and be?

How will those turtles react to flesh in the by EU? So the Then we did is, we went me bought a couple of august wrought chickens, tied him. The ropes set up go pro. Cameras was our I'm going to throw these in the water, the gopro battery about four hours and then we'll come back and pull these out and see what we find throw the chickens in the water when we walking back four hours later we see turtles every we're just scatter away from the chicken which was pretty shocking, pull the chickens out of the water and there's nothing in four hours there was nothing left of those chickens but skeleton, and so we we go back. We pull the gopro footage, sure as shit within twenty minutes, I was putting that meet in the water. The turtle start coming in it's it's all not big snapper turtles like you'd, think, is a lot of red sliders, some, happy turtles, several different species, but they they.

They smell that flesh and go right to it and start ripping it off the bone immediately. So what with it tells me, is the only for saw him either. in argue whether okay, this was turtles or wasn't turtles, but what I was trying to prove this group is. Is it possible to throw flesh into that creek and that by you and not have turtles attack it? and the answer: no, we did that test several times in the new eventually went and got we bought a sixty lb pig, the hagen the water. So we get out because we could work with a chicken. They keep their aid to vast pigs a little closer to human flesh. you're, not we watch them to adjust exactly what we see with the boys are. For soft areas going for the cross, the inner thighs the face the ears. The turtles were just chop. Yeah The turtles were just chomping and chewing on that pig. So still try and argue that you know that that way

an animal activity. But I will maintain based on what we discovered. It is literally impossible to put any kind of meat into that by you and not have turtles attack it and then once we also learn how they feed. At one point, we did have we put a turtle upstream and one downstream of fifty feet apart, because you know either with the way the boys are position in the by you. You know Chris byers in stevie brown She had much more activity, what many more wounds than Michael Moore while they were downstream of him, so they feed by but my theory was, if I put a chicken upstream and one downstream, the one downstream should get more damage than the one upstream, because they're you know, they're they're, following the sent upstream and the first one they come to is going to get worse in turn up. That's what we found that the only if we had to in the water one fifty feet further north than that further upstream than the other one. The first chicken would get eaten to the bone.

and you would only find in that same period of time only a few bites and the one that was further upstream, but if, but if you only put one in then that one obviously gets the full brunt of it. So that explains why you have. The The the shania of ray maculation of Christopher byers, the how badly stevie branches face, was chewed up and the inner thighs of buyers and all those Where is where Michael moore didn't sustain as much it's, because the way they feed as they follow the scent up stream and when they did that the first one they came to was christopher byers, a few feet away from him was stevie at that's, for the feeding frenzy is, is, is horrible at his talk about it was occurring, and then you might more so twenty five feet further upstream. So not as many made it. The other negative leave a viable food source to get to another one. Ok, so that in this takes us back again bob to the pod cast, there were some pretty aggressive and have been pretty aggressive allegations against terry hobbs and I'm sure

Most people are well aware of those, and maybe he is the one responsible for the deaths of these children. I certainly don't know, but part of his alibi or part of the story. We've always been told involves another man named David jacoby. You had some pretty strong opinions of David jacoby that you voiced on your show. Could you could you tell us a little bit more about David jacoby and your your thoughts on that yeah. I I actually and it's going to air here on the podcast in the next few weeks, and I I actually conducted besides my multiple trips down to arkansas to meet with with David in end conversations with him and to convince him to do an interview, but I I end up morning about a two hour interview, exit videoed? Its rushing to put our you to channel is well it's the only and law

guess interview with a is even interviewed a little bit here and there, but it's the only full full length interview with David. You cope with its ever occurred that we're gonna put out, and I think when, when hear that you'll see some of it in the series and the tv series, but more so when you hear this interview with him, You'll realize that this guy had nothing to do with this. You know there's he doesn't fit oh file at all this is a guy. He's got seven children. You actually spoke with his ex wife and the biggest plaint anybody has with him from from his mother and his ex wife were the fact that he was he would never discipline? The kids could never bring himself to harm a kid. Even an even his own when they were in trouble. Onus is mom and a step mobs as all that's why some of the kids are now getting into well because he never disciplined him enough, but then when you hear everything that David did to try to help the the defense investigators, it.

It becomes very apparent. This guy has no idea what happened not to mention just the raw motion from him, but you know he the one thing that dialect aside. A lot of people don't realize David jacoby, actually allowed himself to be hypnotized to try to help. member- and this was part of any bergs team that did the west of Memphis. Now he was working with with douglas and yo ease he's very emotional about it. He was very close with stevie and he wants to know what happened. He has a hard time, believing that terry would have anything to do with it and so of try to get him to trace down a timeline invasive all. What would you agree to be hypnotized and he's a yacht whatever, whatever it takes, so the magic in this. Is a guy that actually had some knowledge of the crime Do you know how date think about how dangerous it would be for that person to let themselves be hypnotized and interviewed about it, they're, just there's just no way

there's there's a lot of other things that he did to to try to help along the way. You know he wore a wire. He let his phone be tapped to have phone conversations with terry hobbs. They had to try and herman of terry had anything to do with it. I don't think he realized, at the time that they were yet they were also trying to figure out if David had anything to do with it any kind of got left, hung out to dry with west Memphis. In way it was, it was it may better tv for them to put out the other. The hare that the the hare found on the stump the basin. The other call the jacobus here that you, his hair, was found in the crime scene too, but that they really did they put it out will bid, but they didn't really near it down as much as they should have for the viewers to digest the fact that, that was a hair that was found on the crime scene in a public place six weeks after the crime. that wasn't discovered by law enforcement and it matches like. I don't remember

seven percent of the population of the world if you take the the the odds of that going to any particular individual and take the amount of peace. We know for a fact were on the crime scene, the I don't remember the number, but it was it was. It was several of be something like nine of the people that were at the crime scene, that hair. What have they also couldn't have been excluded from it, so it was with ended up doing it as it ruined the guy's life. You know he he it up you he would go to the grocery store and people would throw it He told me a story about someone throwing a head of lettuce at him at the at the walmart when he's trying to buy his groceries, call him a child killer spray painting child killer on his on his car. They ran

The west meant this, which is really sad, because when you talk about the west of mount as the documentary, one of things are always stuck out to me about David is when he's telling the story about how stevie would be doing something and terry would begin an angry. I keep that up, I'm gonna bust sure, but I think he talks about marbles or something and he would talker and it seems like this would be a currency that happened multiple times where stevie is get on terry hobbs, his nerve and then David would conduct come to the rescue. Well, if I talk to stevie, if I play with stevie, then terry hobbs will get his focus off of stevie right in a I. I don't think that once we air our my full interview with him, especially the video version of it anybody that can watch that and watch this man stood

go through the emotions and what he went through and how desperate he is to find out who killed. Those boys if you can watch that and still say the I think he had anything to do with this, then more power to you, because I can't I mean I'm I might I I would. I would David, jacoby babysit my kids any day of the week he's he is he's an extremely kind man dedicated father, dedicated grandfather in and they're. Just absolutely the way he had anything to do with this now as far as west of memphis documentary. What what do you make of the hobbs family I regret it's hard to put any weight into that. It made good tv. Maybe it's true I'm in certainly that known that good guy came forward with that information, but I think this is too much at stake, He understood their offer such a big big reward. It seems unlikely to me that if Terry hobbs actually did this

that. He would just share that information with it with it, with his family We're just discussing it over a game of pool in the basement or whatever, so it is possible, but I don't personally, I don't It's all that all that credible, the what is interesting, though, in regards to somebody like terry hobbs or maybe even john mark byers is some of the injuries to the boys, which I I

gets a little dicey when you're trying to look through all of this, because we do know that their there may have been marks and bite marks and in different things that that occurred to the the bodies after the fact. But Some of this appears to be reactionary and what more lever it pointed out- and I believe, is an article in the arkansas times in nineteen. Ninety four. This is still when a lot of the area really believe these teenagers did this. She points out in a wonderfully written article about the the criminal problems that buyers and tear jobs ran into, and some of that in regards to terry hobbs shows signs of abuse on other people, and That's where I have a hard time. You know I go. I go back to the injuries of reactionary and what you said earlier about there's no way

into believe that that the person went into those woods with the intent to kill but may have reacted to something? It went too far, and maybe now I have to I've. I've accidentally killed this one boy. and now I need to kill these other two boys yeah. I mean that that's my theory of exactly my theory. What happened that there was probably a schmid of some kind that that went too far and then now You got two witnesses and I mean it takes a. I wish you a path and not a psychopath. The two then turn on the two innocent eight year, old, kids and intentionally kill them, but that it is the only way that crimes he makes sense to me. What do you make of mark buyers? pass in the light of texts at at only matters honestly and that's the of you look it there's a lot. Be still a lot of people medford? We have people that, were you

involved with our investigation on our facebook page. There are groups and stuff that we're going to friends of the show during this case and do the case really well, then, eventually just kind of got pee often wouldn't talk to me anymore, because I didn't agree with them. That mark byers is a likely suspect, but about mark myers is alibi, Alec nick mentioned it earlier he's alibis. One hundred percent the entire time- and I interviewed someone that no one's ever heard from before that have seen on the show where you're going to see in the show this weekend, weakening that's ryan clark, who's chris buyers, brother and ill. He was. you're right now. He does not like mark byers, he's even told that he thinks Mart buyers had something to do with it. But then, when he walks me through the day, he is forget everything we know up till six, so at five, thirty mark fines

Chris riding skateboard on the middle, the road grabs and take them home. That's when it gives him the spanking and makes him clean under the carport, that's confirmed by, but by Chris, his mother, Melissa, buyer. She told police the same thing that he came home. You get the woman, he was cleaning under the carport mark leave. Go pick up ryan court on in ryan's as yet again we would happen, and then the thing was an ryan explore into me when they. At home how that went down, I might do he doesn't like mark and in pain billy's markets on the do with it cause he just he thinks you know he's a mark was abusive and didn't like Chris, but he he to me the story of coming home and walk inside they were going to go to dinner and mark comes in and wants to know where Chris is at he's mad, because chris was supposed to be cleaning. The carport ryan witnessed his mother say he. Inside. I just saw him in marks, like you, not out there and she's Well, maybe he's upstairs and ryan goes upstairs and looks, and they,

looking around the neighborhood and from that point forward mark was with ease or ryan or melissa, or both throughout the entire rest of the evening by searching so it it its, it seems to me impossible for someone to think that you're what kind of thing We could you have about when he found him and killed him if, when he comes home with rights melissa. His wife and chris's mom says while you were gone with ryan I saw chris outside. So we know Chris is home alive and save that point and when he gets home Chris has already gone so they're. Just there, no way took to make mark myers fit into the suspect pool and then he's actively looking for chris with another person throughout the entire evening, a nightmare What one thing we were able to do on our show was just point out: there's just no time for him to have done this and he's also,

one. That's like raising the the flags here, the other he's. the alarm bells, because I think I'll drive around in. He stops and talks to an officer and says hey of my kids. We can't find and we were supposed to go to dinner. He was supposed to be home. We ve been out looking for me find him anywhere. Should I report him missing and I believe that officer says you know it's. It's still it was still maybe twilight, that time I guess and we still got a little bit of daylight left, and so why? Don't you just you know, take it easy, he'll, probably turn up

if, if an hour so from now, you still feel the same way. Call it in an eye in he's the one that phones the police at a. But what about eight o clock? I think it was around that title here it too to an odour fight it they Chris, is missing, and on top of it he seems clueless that two other boys are missing because Michael moors mother comes across the street and then says to the officer yeah. My my son is missing as well. I haven't seen him since this time and when you really sorry putting together that the time frame of these possible and out, I do want to stress this, though these possible, I witness accounts of having seen the boys, because I dont know that I fully believe every single one of them- and we all know from doing this for a long time that I witness accounts, are

are pretty unreliable in general. But I do believe that some of these sightings occurred in that they that they were correct and I'm not going to willy nilly pick, which ones are right and wrong it doesn't allow for the timeline for anything to four four mark byers to have done anything to Chris level. on the other two boys as well. Just it just doesn't fit it's it's damn near impossible right and the only way you have there there's a We call the manhole theory out there and there there's a bunch of different crazy theories that you know he like wrote: a boat down the buy you late at night to put the bodies in there and it just it just it just In my opinion, those those are just not possible. You know, like you said, you know that that doesn't make any sense at all and he just yelled problem is, and I bet mark I interviewed him. You hear from him quite a bit on the bod cast during season five, but five, but he's

changes story. A few time he's a very dynamic guy he's not even tell by his path is not a great guy. It's we rubs, allow people the wrong way and so it came either people love to hate him, but same time. You know it to me: that's no different, the Damien Echols, you know people will say well, Damian's change the story. He was a liar and he was a satan worshippers like well. You know and if he was a liar, and even if he was a satan worshiper, that still doesn't mean that he killed those boys. There still no evidence that he actually killed those boys well in that's what's funny to is when people look at these different cast of characters, as the captain has called them and says. Well, this person has changed your story. This person has changed their story. That's why I don't like him. The police have changed their story, the whole time and changed other people story to fit their narrative, and then you people that still believe that the three of them did it I mean you have you know

mention the hollings worth earlier, but we have, we have two people that in captain said what what else? What else evidence do we have in regards to Damien ackles? Well up a problem for eccles that he ran into a trial? Is we have the hollings worth clan, who says I saw Damien Echols and Domini tear out and they were doing They were muddy and it was. It was late at night on the night that the boys were killed, and then the police have to change that. That story a little bit themselves and they said you know Jason baldwin. It well he's he's a smaller guy. He shore east, then he's got long hair that you probably saw Damien with with jason. old one and you're mistaken. It wasn't dominates here right, even though gnarly missing nope, I know my niece. I know for sure that was her, but they still present. That is evidence that that he saw J.

not to mention their whole story of there being. I think it one point ends up being like nine or twelve people in that little hatchback is it. Yours is this. Where he progresses in their reporting different times too. Like I, I believe, there's the one of the witnesses is like an hour and a half difference from from one of the other ones. They they said they they probably sat together, came up with some kind of story because again it's reward money. That's this fueling, some of of this confusion around the case. Others put this old cases a perfect situation. It. It was. It was just the wrong set of circumstances and the wrong set of people to create this chaos, because you've got Y o y a complicated case. That wallet was made complex, and then- and you have all of these boy: are their emotions running high? Everybody wants to solve the case and throw this big

that reward out to a whole bunch of poor people and edges indices like thrown fire on on gasoline it it just edges nights, but when you're talking about the victimology, it seems like you believe you learned a couple things: one that these murders took place by one single individual who gave us the reasons you believe for that. You also believe that this person was connected to the boys somehow, but also connect to that neighborhood? Somehow you gave us your evidence reasons of those. Is there any other things that you guys have come to conclusions about the profile of this? sure there was a big reveal. You know I've worked with retired as a profiler, Jim Clemente, about five years now and he's been kind of a mentor to me and

and I think it did, a pretty good job profiling. The crime scene hit his profile and mine were were pretty close actually once he finally did his job. But Jim is an expert for a reason and what you'll you will see the tv series is Jim catching something that I never caught before and it in an egg. I guess it doesn't necessarily This may not answer your question, but it's interesting along the same lines. when he was was going through. The evidence with with terry hobbs. You know what time line, what we have what's verifiable and the fact that terry called the police from calf his island would, when he pick pam Will we knew? That is what happened, not till nine o clock. He calls a police reports a missing and then has the police and meet him their ill.

we thought you know, that's it. We always let you know how cal. Obviously, this guy must not have a big concern. Why did he wait? So long to call the police and Jim watched it in water. I watched a light, bulb go off in his head and you will have seen that on the t v series when he tells me to hit pause and said, wait a minute he from catfish island and he didn't go home. He waited. He met them in the parking lot there. I had thought much of and he's like why? Wouldn't they go home pans son is missing. His death one is missing there waiting for him to go home, they're terrified. Where would you want to be in that situation at home right waiting for him to come home? And he says this guy didn't want the police in his house that in in in gym just I mean just poignantly that is,

there is a huge red flag? This guy was calculated for some reason: terry hobbs, the and seems to indicate did not want to meet the police at his house did not work, the police at his house and that's why you waited to call catfish island and that's why he stayed at catfish island to take the report instead of telling them to meet him back at the house. So it is an excellent your question about the profile. But again is that, where my mind, when you said that one, I think you're mine also can go to the idea that if My son was missing and I call the police I'd say all well made us back at the house has maybe he showed up, but if you're responsible for these, as you know, that there are not going to show up right exactly right If, if you, if you've seen seen at this point the game you haven't seen the show yet but you've seen some of the trailers and if you use a little bit of that moment, I'm describing in the trailers and the new year so see me

sitting at a desk looking up at the sky with tears in my eyes, trying to compose myself. That was that was that moment when all of a sudden it occurred to me what pam hobbs must have been going through when she was forced to sit and stay at catfish island and wait for the police when her son was missing and she couldn't get home to see if he was there when there's a lot of thought to that, he never wanted to call police that he only did so because pam questions him when he arrives to pick her up well did did you call the police and he says no and then you're right, it's very calculated for him to deterrent to decide to call them there. You now to to I got a and her worry by phoning the police, but I'm going to do it here right now and stay here. As you said, that's very yet the staying here was the big part, you know cause I've heard people say: will maybe their phone was working or whenever an in he another innovation said they did. Have a working phone book

Staying here is is, is the big thing? That's your! Why why I go home and I m just at I'd- never thought about in that context, until Jim brought that up and its I have had a hard time letting go of it ever since. On an I, I liked the fact that you brought up when I was looking at the trailer there's this moment that you just talked about where I was like wait. It was bob teary eyed, because we've hung out several times at a crime con and fun events. So we're always upbeat- and it's good to see- buddy and I saw this clip and I went wow. I think this gets really emotional, but I also think it's important with these cases to have people that are emotional about the cases and that that that these cases actually matter to them, and it's just not somebody collecting a paycheck to investigate a crime for t v on and that's one of the main reasons. I'm very excited to check that

Hey did you want to call it documentary docu series, yeah you're, going to we're going to see some emotion out of me that I wasn't thrilled about that. I'm on you're, going to see me on camera crying a couple of times, which, of course he will be in the top burly man than I am wasn't wasn't thrilled with, but it's the reality. You know that this docu series making you the view along with me. While I'm doing the investigation and you get to see what- really looks like you get to see what it looks like when I sit down in the called an interview I'm speaking with someone who lost their child who lost their brother and it it where's. I shall tell you as though your we filmed for about three months and as the there there was. Definitely a fatigue fact

her, it just so much sadness and so much hurt and pain that it got to be ill. a lot of it. A lot of the interviews- and we filmed later on I'm just kind of as it is, it is awaited ways on me, so much too so badly want to find the truth for these people and finally find some justice. Now, bob there. There are obviously a lot of question marks in regards to terry hobbs, but are there? Is there anybody else, any other persons, any other people that, in the eyes of bob rough, should be persons of interest and why There are a few others, but what we really determined throughout the course of this, that the the tv series in our active investigation last year, is when we filmed it was this case is only going to be solved one way and that's through science there's. we're not going to solve this case by by interviewing

people by finding more witnesses there's just ever it. There's time has passed. There's too much motivation, there's been too much motivation with money and with media and memories of shifted, there's too much drug use and too much alcoholism and and too many people with agendas stories. changing, but we have break in science with new technology that can actually solve this case and what is going to come down to that doesn't necessarily matter. Ooh, the the of interest are necessarily matter. If you think terry hobbs did it, I didn't do it, I'm not saying if he did or didn't I dont know I but I'll tell you that he's. Some of that I think, needs further investigation and what its go you gonna take is to convince scott ellington, the district attorney that that huh, holds the keys, he's the gatekeeper to the evidence to is the evidence and allow us to use new technology and science to test it, and that is what is going to solve the

and that is the only thing that's gonna finally solve this case, while in the statistics show this to be true that younger of victim, the more likely that they had a has to be someone on their inner circle in these victims were all three. Eight years old, if you take a victim, that's one or two: it's almost somebody inside the house. It's because the younger you are the smaller your social circle. Is you just don't have that much going on in your life, and the interesting thing here is with these. With these three victims with the three boys, you're, really not talking about a whole lot of circles, because you, you probably looking for the common themes throughout them. When you talk about victimology, okay, they went to the same school. They lived in the same neighborhood. They they were in the same up. All three of them were cub scouts. I believe

and then you also have that this because they're all three friends just their immediate families in general. It feels to me like, if this killer is known to the kids and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that it's be somebody in one of those circles there. I agree, and I think that the other that the biggest the saddest part about this whole case is that west memphis police didn't do their job on day one. I think I think all of this mystery I most of us, would it never heard about this case? I think it would have been easily and quickly solved. Had they done their job on day want they did bad police work to be with, but they they are also were not skilled in in a homicide or the homicide of of a three children, but that, but that the thing that always fascinates me with these smaller police departments that

can't fight their way out of a white paper bag date. They turned down assistance from from agencies that no better that know what they're doing I mean we have statements of the state police saying that no, they didn't want our help down there and in no west memphis in If, as you pointed out the f b, I tried to get involved yeah, it's it's sad. You know I worked in government for a long day. I was a firefighter for for sixteen years and I worked alongside with a lot of police officers and lawn forest. But I'll. Just tell you that the there's definitely a mark of territory that goes on and all that is the same thing at the fire service. You know what I've been at fires where we need help, we don't have enough. We don't have enough enough apparatus, it's all yours when I was in my younger years in the fire service. I knew, as chief you call for mutual aid, asked the neighboring town to come over here and help us, which it would happily do in.

This mentality in the we're talking early, two thousands now not not terribly far removed from this case, where they would a house within a burning down because they refused to call for help because they didn't want to admit to another is a that they needed their help. You know that that culture, local locally and thankful changed over the course of my career Of course. For me I was the chief by the end, so I was the one that got to make those decisions, but, the same thing in law enforcement. I think there's a lot of what you see it. Just it is people pissing on fire hydrants. You know that this is my territory and I don't need you when in here to tell me how to do my job, but the saddest, What about it is beside that even is this case was made more. Allocated than it actually was. That was Memphis police department had certainly didn't dealt with homicides before, but this was a right, a triple homicide of children. This is different in that the problem is they looked at it like it was different, but where they needed to do was investigated the same

way. They investigate every other case in had they done that we would have had a resolution very quickly after the boys bodies were found. Obviously, we all still have the question of who did this, but what questions do you still have about the case? I think that's the only one. That's is left for me in there, there's a lot of minutiae, I mean you can get an m in ever. The the callahan website is one of the greatest resources ever made available for any true crime case ever literally, you can go through every single document, the case and that's an end in. What's not on there. I've I've viewed and copied myself when I when the DA's office, to go through their files. drawn, and certainly there are a million unanswered questions, but it kind of goes back to What I mentioned earlier that what I realized is there's not going to be blaring answer in those files. There's not It'd be a glaring answer in a new witness. You know we we

new witnesses you're going to hear from people this weekend that you've never heard from before. But that's not what solve the case that it was going to solve. The case is going to have to be forensic. So much of my big question is: who did it? The answer is sitting right there in front of you and all we need to do collectively as it as it is. On both sides of this is just want. The truth is to force. That issue is to convince scott ellington in the states. his office to allow the evidence to be tested and allow us to find the truth. Look when you watch west of memphis, he just wanted us a strangle. The guy with the basically saying: look. We have enough evidence to convict these guys, but there's resources then. He even said that he has even dove into all the evidence. So when he makes that statement he's basically telling the community, we believe these three individuals are responsible for murdering

three slash eight year old children and we're going to release them to the public? To me that that's the most Oh shit, I've ever seen like if you actually thought that these three individuals killed these three worlds, you would never release them to the community ever because are always be a threat to the children all they did as we want you to admit that you're you're guilty of the crime. So you king sue, us for the time that we made you, sir fright it's the Alfred plea. Is it one of the worst pieces of our criminal justice system and it's not what it was ever intended to be, you know it was essential. The alford plea came from a case where the other at the you, weren't allowed to plead guilty to something if you were innocent, and that makes sense. So that's what that that's, where that plea came from was a guy that was like wallplate. Please guilty to take this deal. But I didn't do it while the judge was not allowed to accept that plea this ruling came in to wear them.

okay work for this. Certain circumstance will allow you to play. But still maintain your innocence, and then that got turned in do. What we now know that the alford plea where you prosecutor as is use it as a is. A pot is an easy way out to say: ok, while I'll dangle your freedom front of you, you can go home and not have any more risk of being a prison. But you have to plead guilty and be convicted, for the rest of your life. In order for that to happen, and that way I get to say we got guys. I dont have to further investigate this because look they played guilty. when I see erste stevie branch, christopher byers, Michael Moore, these three eight year old victims are victims, multiple times they're they're victims of one of abuse, then they are victims, they're murdered, then their victims, in the sense that the whole case becomes about three other victims and then

then they become victims again by by the courts, not standing up and saying that we we believe that these individuals are guilty. If you, if you thought they were guilty, you would never left let them out, but you let them you have them- make a plea where now the case is closed and in the of the law and they're not going to investigate this anymore so we're, never gonna know. Well, that's what we're going to change with it, and it does help a lot of keep saying about the ellington, the forensic evidence will make a lot more sense after this weekend. When you see that when you see the series- but you know we we discovered there's new technology out there that we know I went to calif need to meet with the forensic dna specialists are used, the EM back dna collection technique and ends that doctor she's convinced that if you give me this evidence, I can tell you who did it and words we can't get scott ellington

bulls head out of the sand long enough to allow that testing to be done but his all gonna take public pressure and that's my only argument against baldwin equals and miss kelly is you stated in a documentary that you could do more once you get out, and if this is true, like you said that there's evidence that can be Did these three individuals should be yelling from the rooftops and using their platforms. Get the community behind this too, to stir possibly some movement because, like you said like I said, if there's no public pressure nor I think it's done well, that's what you're gonna see this weekend is all three of them asking for this dna testing and that the reason why Damien and jason participated in the in the docu series. You know they're not making any money off of this or anything they are a part of it, because They believe that our process, here

resting asian could actually led to the truth in and actually figure out who killed those three little boys. That's why they agree to participate and there only one person that holding up that testing right now and it's not damien is not jay. Ten is not jesse. They've all said they're, all four at the only one person stopping this case from being solved that scott ellington how about a little recommended viewing you guessed. It is the highly anticipated the forgotten west. Memphis available on demand on oxygen watch, our friend bob rough on the forgotten west memphis, three and I've had a chance to watch both parts. I'd give it five bottle caps out of five. and until next week be good, be kind and don't miss.

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