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The Ice Box Murders /// Part 2 /// 444

2020-11-18 | 🔗

The Ice Box Murders /// Part 2 /// 444

Part 2 of 2


June 1965 - Houston, Texas. Over the course of Father’s Day weekend someone murdered Fred and Edwina Rogers in their home. The killer dismembered the victims and stuffed them in the refrigerator. Who killed the elderly couple? What was the motive or motives for the murders? Join us in the Garage as we go back in time and review this cold case.

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The Welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing, thanks for listening, I'm your host nick and with me, as always, is a man that insists that willie nelson file, his taxes for him. Ladies and gentlemen, the independently wealthy capita
yeah I had a bunch of money till the government took my hashish money. To be seen, good to see you thanks for listening thanks for town, a friend, the today in the old garage ice box, we have a little tramps like us, ip, a from intersect brewing. This is a citrusy I PA with and a bb of six point. Five percent in a garage grade of three and three quarter bottle caps out of five. Let's give some cheers too are good friends. They helped us out what this week's beer fun. First up a chair to Andy and charles at the columbia river roadhouse and should not get some and a big we like it. Two to blair in minneapolis. This next one is Carlos Louis and the young wolf from Liverpool england
the young wolf, I feel like we just gave a shout out to three dudes that are about to commit a bank heist the hour, maybe like three dudes that are raised, the kid as a wolf in the woods, and we don't know if she's a wolf or not me, she might be a fox, they shouted erika in rest in virginia next up a bit. Little cheers and IRAN swanton. Please- and thank you too little, linda from could Nikko stewed oh in dallas and last, but certainly not least, we have aaron flipping late in gig harbor washington, thanks to everyone for helping us, fill up this week's garage, icebox, yeah be doing The boy are in beer run if you'd like to to about the show you get something back in return, go to true crime, garage, grudged, dotcom click on the store, bade picking up a hoodie pick, give tee shirts picking coffee mug, so many things some beer parts, she could pick up some beer points and
that is enough of the business Everybody gather round grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk some true grab in june of nineteen sixty five houston police officers force way into the home of fred and edward, rogers finding the elderly couple murdered in their bodies dismembered in the refrigerator or icebox, therefore,
The three year old son charles who lived in the home with the deceased couple, was nowhere to be found based on the autopsy, the crime scene and the evidence. Investigators believe that fred was killed by blows to the head with a claw hammer and wiener had been beaten and shot execution style. Investigators believe that Charles their son killed his parents, dismembered them and cleaned up most of the blood. The house was staged to have the appearance of a robbery, a search for charles rogers was launched and a warrant was issued for him as a material next to the crime. This is attacked. Take that we ve seen before in other murder investigations captain where they are not saying this man is a suspect. They are not publicly saying this. and murdered his parents. What they are saying is we are searching for this man. The best we could do is get a material witness search warrant for this man right.
And we can't find him anywhere locally very quickly within twenty four, forty eight hours of the discovery of the parents having been murdered There's a nationwide manhunt for three year old, charles rogers. The difficult thing here is charles lived at the home of possibly own the home. So fingerprints, that's not going to matter footprints not going to matter, but what does matter is we have two dead parents and the house is filled with bleach and I think that the, when, when you talk about the fact that there might be some like gambling or less
go mob or even national mob. Why would the mob clean up the house there's no point to it or spend the time to dismember the bodies the really invited were this? Member of the bodies could be to prove a point that let's show you how vicious we are, and so, when you come home and again well, maybe that's the reason why there would have been any cleanup, maybe HU. I d is your gun, Come home you're not going to really notice much difference in the house and then, when you open up the refrigerator you're going to find your parents chopped up and that's to send a message- and I guess then the bleach would make sense, but doesn't make a lot of sense to me I guess the thought being here. If it was a robbery if it was a hit, if it was a job that you go in
at the murders any leave. You don't hang out there for hours, possibly days altering the crime scene in dismembering the bodies This case reminds me of an fbi top ten most wanted case that we covered in august of two thousand and seventeen. This is the bread for bishop case. He was aged thirty nine, he disappeared march. Second, back in nineteen, seventy six from bethesda Marilyn shortly after a legit lee. murdering his wife, mother and children, similar situation where everybody It's that lived in the house was killed, the bodies were later moved and he attempted to burn them and fled the area the car, the family carers found on isolated campground in tennessee more situation to that that the only person laughed the last
And standing, if you will is labeled the suspect, because that is the closest point we can get from perpetrator to victims and he bishop has been on the f b I's most wanted list since two thousand and fourteen, I believe so, they're still looking for him. Charles rodgers has never made it onto any of these list. I was looking for a state of texas, most wanted feud it gives the harris county, Houston, city, f b. I top ten he's, never made it onto any. Of these less now mind you. A lot of these lists that exist today did not exist in nineteen sixty five when he allegedly killed his parents and fled the area. The interesting thing, though, was the
I believed, or at least worked on several persons that they believe to have been fred. Rogers. Excuse me, Charles rogers, now part of that is it's a pretty common name, so when they go all there's a I'll, rogers and Oklahoma. What we gotta go investigate him right was just a common name. There were several people, they went to several different cities in taxes. They went to Oklahoma I could find one case as far away as michigan and this one look. Like a really good lead, a michigan, because the Charles rogers in Michigan had a pilots licence had his own plane. They were very quickly able to figure out that the pilots since did not match up with that of the one charles rogers, that they in fact we're looking for there's. Even this we're. story to wear gloves
Luckily, on the local level, they locked up a guy and the guy said he was Charles rogers and to peace. came forward and identified him as the charles rogers. They were looking for. They held him in jail for several days, only to find out that the man was suffering from mental illness. He was not who said he was in the two people that identified him. They simply were mistaken. It was somebody else entirely. What became of this, though, is Charles rogers became somewhat of ghost and he really became like the local boogeyman for the kids of that neighborhood him for the kids of Houston. It was said that for several weeks after the discovery, bodies. The police were guarding the house. This is for several reasons, one. They thought that there was a decent chance. The Charles rogers might return to the home at some point, gotta
the other thing was they were worried that vandals would come in and vandalize the home they couldn't do anything. This would be the banks in the They couldn't do anything with the home because the owners were so how you shake this thing out. We talked about how charles own half the house Maybe you own the entire house, the rightful owner of the home, be it his parents him or charles by himself. They could not locate them, so they couldn't just confiscate the home. Take were the home and take all the belongings out of there. So they watched the house for several weeks
They didn't have any instance where Charles rogers returned to the house. They were not able to find him, then what happens in this bizarre story is. They would go in periodical check on the house from time to time after several years have gone by now do. The house by this point has been abandoned for a long time. The yard probably looks crazy that the house probably looks scary, and now you have these stories that are being told throughout the neighborhood of that's the house where Charles rogers killed his parents. The police go to check on the house. They find a window in the side door were left open. Someone had entered the home and in living room on the wall, someone wrote, I killed my parents, I am the killer
and whoever did this, they believe rifle through the drawers and and looked for any potential valuables before leaving the home rain. This story gets out This scares the hell out of the neighborhood kids, who are now being told by some of the older kids. Things like you know somebody. So call charles, rogers peeking in their window. Last week somebody saw Charles rogers in the neighborhood. There were even stories where the older kids would tell the younger kids don't be out later night by yourself or charles rogers will get you cut you up into pieces and flesh you down the toilet, so yeah. He became the local bogey man and in nineteen seventy five, a Houston judge declared charles rogers legally dead. This is so
the estate could be probate it. This is even though the case still remained officially unsolved and open with charles rogers b, the only suspect the house then is allowed to be sold. It sat there and sat there until they eventually demolished the home with the furniture still inside. I saw an article captain that said that the the lots at their vacant until two thousand and two the year, two thousand when condominiums were built in that lot, and probably the surrounding area as well as a
an attractive building the belt, but that the neighbors were saying that, whether ot on halloween or the anniversary of the murders there'd be people that would be there. That would take pictures or light candles or just people that are fascinated by the case locally yeah in two thousand and twelve culture map, Houston writer, Sarah rough cut wrote a chilling tales. Article titled, Houston's crime rate is low, but it's history is dark. The city's five most notorious murders. The good news, as the article starts out the year two thousand and eleven, the city of Houston, had fewer homicides than any year since nineteen sixty five. That is quite the accomplishment for a city as large as houston. Oddly enough, that is the fewest amount of homicides since the year of the still
unsolved double frederick in at weena rogers homicides. The list like most places refer to this case as the ice box, murders, which Sarah placed at the number for spot on houston's. Most notorious murders list Andrea yates, who drowned her five children in the bathtub of their home, It was later found not guilty by reason of insanity due to postpartum, depression and psychosis. The other cases listed are the sunday morning slasher case the killing fields case, which we, which for all of the good people out there listening on stitcher. We covered this in our killing fields, trilogy in august of two thousand and seventeen, and finally, the series
killer dean corll the case which we covered as well in our candyman episodes in october, two thousand and eighteen. So certainly this case, remains on the minds of people at the local level and, as you said, captain very much now folklore and local legend in the houston area, while, like we both said chances, are he's the most likely suspect, but what would his motives be well. There are two prevailing theories as far as motive for murder here, because if we trace this thing, it appears that he lived with his parents for a good deal of time, and then something happened that made him murder his parents, and some have suggested that it was all is building up to this, that the hatred that he had for his father, that the disagreements it he had with his mother him being weird them
being weird his father, potentially being abusive, both physically and verbally to his son. Some have even suggested that this carried on in two charles is a doll I've and may have still been going on roughly about the time of the murders that it was this abuse that lead to him losing it reacting in killing both of his parents, but the icing on the cake b. in that they were cheating him financially as well and at some point he discovered this and chose to seek revenge against his parents and kill them. Both there is evidence to suggest that a cup things were going on here, one that they were stealing money from their son. The way that these reports go captain. I want to be clear here some state that boy
His parents were knowing and willingly doing this other reports state that the father was the one doing this yeah, but they were steal money from their son and remember we mention that there is evidence that says he owned a good deal of property elsewhere. What has come to light is that he found evidence that his parents forged the documents, to make it appear as they wore the owners of that property and what they were doing. What They were borrowing against that property, basically they stole the land from him and took out a loan against that land value of the land, they're collecting money based off this and then we already talked about the weird stuff with the house. Did it belonged to them? Did it belonged to Charles did they? It was
it's a situation where he actually paid for the entirety of the house and they forged documents to make it look like they owned half but again, you're saying this is all speculation. We don't have any actual proof of this. There with some proof. I don't have any that. I can cite right here for you today, but I I do believe that there's a good amount of proof for this, because we have a book that came out in this would have been in two thousand and three in october of two thousand and three red bud pub sing released the ice box murders. This is a novel written by q and Martha gardener open, I'm hoping I'm their name correctly. According
To a review and the houston press, the icebox murders is written, as fact based fiction and supposition, interesting that its listed as this it's not listed as true crime is listed, as fact based fiction, an interview with the authors, hugh states that eighty five percent of the book is fact the other fifteen percent is fiction. They weren't able to get the true crime category for their book, based off of that thing, This is still technically unsolved. They believed that they ve solved it. One thing that I find fascinating regarding the financials, the fine man element to
the motive for murder here, is that the married couple that wrote the book the ice box murders. They are both forensic accountants, people that are able to take documents, review doc, you and then find out the reasons why and trace everything back to how numbers got to be numbers and how statements got to be statements and if, in fact, they are true or false, or this guy missing and he's never been found. How does a individual like this do that the book itself in their theory, captain is not with a certain level of conspiracy, and that, I think, is why the authors are saying: hey, look it's eighty five percent fact: fifteen percent fiction or left to the unknown, because in the book there are
many unnamed characters, and these are supposed to be various politicians, real life, politicians and attorneys as well as possible. I witnesses who may have saw rogers in other countries after these murders or maybe even helped him or employed him after he fled the Houston area and essentially fled the united states because of the discovery of his killed parents. One thing that the author site- and this is something that was hold back information in the ice box murders case it came out three years after the murders, so the murders were committed in nineteen sixty five, while in nineteen sixty eight there was a Houston cry.
cool article, where law enforcement was asking the public for their help by you know. For three years in this small area, there was probably tons of rumors coming out what they wanted was they wanted to identify a man who was using the name, Anthony pitts or to have the public come forward and point out and say, hey, I I know somebody using that name, or I know Anthony pitts here is where he is here- is his location, so they could go speak with them. Why would they want to talk to somebody named Anthony pitts? Well, they believe that this was an alias that rogers was using to flee the area. The way that the story goes is within a day or two of the murders. Remember they were able to really narrow that down to just a few hours, either late saturday or early
Andy morning, the couple was killed inside their home. this would have been monday or tuesday. Of that same week, a man went into an office building applying for a job. A welder job overseas Now, there's no evidence to suggest that charles Yours was a welder. Ever was a welder any point in his life. However, the man match charles rogers description and the key being here that the job was overseas. If Charles rogers is a smart and brilliant as they they, as I'm sure he thought he could figure out how to fake his way, at least to the point to getting out of the country he applied. For this.
Out of the country welder job using the name, anthony pits ray what the ice box, murders, book authors, the husband and wife you and Martha put together. They don't think the Charles rogers was as much of a recluse as what the papers with us believe they think that he was out living a pretty full life when he was away from his parents and away from the home so much so that he had a girlfriend. The way that story all ties in is that they believe that Charles's girlfriend and they simply give the first name only as jean worked at that his building and he was going there not so much so to try to get this job out the contrary. It was more
of a way for him to get a vehicle. Remember. We said that both of the vehicles that belong to the rogers family wherein inoperable the reports were that they were up on blocks in the driveway of the home. He needed a getaway car his girlfriend jean was going to provide this to him. He just had to go to the office and pick it up. She didn't want to be tied to the murder house. So, according to the authors, jean provided charles rogers in nineteen fifty nine cadillac, which he used to help him get to the mexico border or get to his cessna airplane right that we referenced earlier to get
his ass out of the country, the. the back cheers mates cheers to you cap couple more twists and turns to possibly think about in this case well Alice. Are you ready to go dive down the giant rabbit hole
yeah I got my little dress on. I took my love crumpets tuna, this one this will make you drink. This makes a smaller, I like the one that makes me taller, so I'm going to drink my drink and let's swan dived down the old rabbit whole, because there is a mother theory that takes much of the same aspects of that theory that we just reviewed, but it takes it a whole step further, and what is that? Well that Charles rogers was somehow involved in the assassination of our thirty fifth president of the united states, John,
kennedy. Yeah makes some sense. Just on the surface. Having said that, this double homicide goes down in nineteen. Sixty five in houston, Texas and Kennedy is shot and killed in dallas in november of nineteen sixty three, but the way that this general theory works is that rogers discovered that his pen, were stealing money from him and fraud him out of his property, to which he says. Look, I know what you guys are doing. I don't know threats they believe were made if he threatened to kick them out of the house or have them arrested, thrown behind bars or what, but in red action to that argument about the financials. The theory goes that Edwina said. You know what you've been yeah, we've been stealing your money, but you don't think that you
father, and I know what you ve been up to four these last few years that you and your guinea friends got together and plotted against the president and killed the president. by the way, we're going to keep stealing your money and keep abusing you and doing whatever we want as a form of blackmail, because we know that you are involved in the assassination of jfk yeah. Supposedly, she was logging. His calls and again you'd think that law enforcement would it all to come out and say one tell me if he is even living in that house, but was he receiving a bunch of calls and where, where they're, coming from yes
with this theory, I'm not going to I'm not going to try to sugar coat it one bit. There are plenty of holes in this theory, just as there would be with any of the conspiracy theories, swiss cheese for the Jf, is ass, a nation. So I don't want anybody out there going well. The neck in the old nick he's got an extra
krispijn his recent days, the old crispy colonel announced it added and now falling off, that's right. They they think they ve solved J of kase murder. Well, no, that's not it, but this is a very interesting story and one that I'm been very pleased to have spent some time looking into recently. The way that this works is there were three men. They were photographed by several dallas area newspapers. There were under police escort near the texas school book depository shortly after the assassination of united states. President John F Kennedy on november. Twenty second now team sixty three referred to as the three tramp's the three traps, the three transience were all men, as the captain just said later, commonly referred to as the three traps: nine, according to vincent bungalow, see
allegations that these men were involved in a conspiracy against the president originated from theorists richard sprague, who compiled the photographs in nineteen sixty six and one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven and then gave them to Jim gary Jim garrison was the attorney that was going after and leading the investigation of clay shaw, who he believed was involved in the conspiracy murder of John Kennedy. Now appearing before a nationwide audience on 31st one thirty first, nineteen sixty eight on the tonight show Jim garrison a guest on the tonight show
He held up a photo of the three traps right and suggested that they were involved in the assassination one. One of the reasons people believe this is because we we do have proof that these three guys were arrested. They all gave three fake names and they were, they all were released. Correct and ever since then, ever since garrison his appearance on the tonight show there have been various upon. areas allegations of who or the idea
entities of the three men that were arrested that day and called and labelled the three traps now rodgers his father, fred rogers, had kind of a sunken chin, and so you can compare one of the three tramps and go okay, while that guy has a sunken enchanting as a straight pointy nose. That would be consistent with charles, but there are so few pictures of charles that it's really hard to look at any pictures of the tramps there. So few pictures of the tramps to look at either one of those and say that that's charles roger, I can't look at it. In and say that's charles rodgers to me. Well, the thing that's difficult about charles rogers is there's not a whole lot of photos that exist of this man and often the photos that we are seeing would be things like his senior picture, and I school
We would also be looking at his days in the navy when he was photographed in the navy. So I don't if you have a lot of great comparisons when trying to compare his picture to that of one of the three tramps. What is interesting, though, is that we have Lois gibson. She worked with the Houston police department. She was a forensic artist, so she is the person that's going to make these composite sketches of suspects that we see at the post office or released on F b. I dot gov and what have you lois Gibson is the one that said to have identified charles rogers as what is known as the small train.
tramp number three tramp number three. He was the the shortest of the three tramps according to Lois gibson, and he was a shorter man. He was listed at five foot, seven or five foot eight, and she says that he she believes he was the small tramp. She also identified Charles harrison to be that of the tall tramp and chauncey holt. She identified him as being well that my list here says the third tramp yeah, it's locked. It depends on what patients you look depends on whose labeling them? Oh, I wonder if he's called the third tramp in this version, because they show a picture
of the three of them being led away from the area right in these, the last form these last one in the picture, but the but the first one in the pictures who people think maybe Charles would be so these three traps their located in the general facility of where kennedys, assassinated and what's interesting is these are the we're over by the the railroad and the grassy knoll area yeah, and I saw a lot of people think they were dressed as something else and then change clothes they did get arrested. They were let go, but they gave fake name. So how? How would you be like
So when you give fake names, I mean, I know, there's a lot going on in that town, but a lot of people believe that this is part of the conspiracy, because some people higher up people were able to get them out that maybe they worked for the cia or the work for the f b. I, and but the only thing that really stands out to me when you're looking at this six years, and I oppose those unanswered ram as well is charles? Has it's almost like his right
Here is a little different than his left ear and more more of a circle and can sticks out a little bit more and if you look at the pictures of tramp number, three definitely has the same type of situation. Goin on with his right here as well now must looks like like a deformity like almost like a wrestler would have, but yeah that's only thing that can sticks out to me to go out. Maybe maybe maybe that could be him. But then, when you look at possible other pictures of arm charles when he gets a little older. What maybe they think hugh he would look like or what it does on looking anywhere close to him once interesting here is, there is a little proof in the pudding. There is some reason to speculate that this is a possibility and I think we should continue down that rabbit hole. So we have john are craig and philip.
Rogers no relation to charles rogers In the early nineties, they were least a book called the man on the grassy. No did the c. I a hire a psychopath to assassinate J f k. Now the psychopath is Charles rogers, but also could be Charles Harrison right now. Who is charlie, harrelson Charles else, then, is what he Harrison's father yeah. This is a weird story, but sounds like we're, making this forehead and then in, and then there was the father of who in your. I almost feel bad telling this because woody harrelson is one of my favorite actors and he's amazing. I feel like I'm, like I'm just doing a disservice to a man that I I enjoy his work very much. In september of nineteen. Eighty two contract killer Charles Harrelson. This is one thing that you
factor in here nobody's really. arguing that two of these three men that they're saying could be the three tramps have they murdered other people were on to murder, other people, so they're known killers that there filling the shoes of these three traps? In september of nineteen? Eighty, two, Charles Harrelson, while wanted for the murder of federal judge, John of wood, junior quote on quote confessed to killing the judge and president Kennedy during a six hours stand off with police, which later it was determined that Harrelson was high on cocaine. We have several witnesses that that witnessed this man state. That not only did I
the judge, but I killed president Kennedy as well. These witnesses later testified that they didn't really believe harrelson These are words that Charles Harrelson set known killer, get in the way that the book puts this theory to gather the man on the grassy know is that you had Harrelson a contract killer, someone that you can hire to go off and kill someone and charles rogers someone who we know spent time. in the navy served in world war, two that these two men were going to be additional shooters today would be the ones shooting of the two tramps in this chauncey holt would be a lookout
and the way that this siri works as if they were involved with the c. I a they were CIA operatives and they were all so working with Oswald and what's interesting. One thing that I found fascinating in the book itself is: they show a picture anybody that seen the movie j f k by Oliver stone will know exactly what I'm talking about their its. They spent a good portion of that movie. I understand that it's a movie but they spent a good portion of that movie in new orleans, where they show lee harvey oswald, passing out leaflets for the cuba move. Our whatever they were, calling it well, they show a picture in this book lee harvey oswald passing out, said leaflets the fair play for cuba, leaflets in new orleans this on august 16th, one thousand nine hundred and sixty three. This is not just some random photograph. This is a photograph from
w d s v tv in new orleans in the picture you can see reporters you can see several other persons all dress like oswald. This is dark, pants white, but not sure what the thai passing out these leaflets in this. Picture here, chauncey holt, who is later said to be one of the three tramps identifies a may and who is on the far right of this picture at as being charles rogers, who he says he didn't know as charles raw He knew him under the name of richard montoya and he says that he was an agent that he worked with with While he was a c. I a age is what you're saying. According to this chauncey halt right, and there is also evidence of bleak
that oswald had an office in and like CIA or the the fbi they had a building that Oswald had our office with inside. So there's other people that have made those claims that puzzled has worked for government and many different capacities. Right and again, this theory has quite a bit of holes to it and really the interlocking theory here is that in some form or fashion, all four, including oswald, chauncey hall, Charles rogers and Charles Harrelson, we're all working, contracted or employed by cia during this assassination of jfk right while
about the difference that would have made after Oswald was shot and killed, they would have said, oh by the way he was working for the government, wait so the guy. You arrested that you believe killed the president was working for the government. That seems a little fishy. Well, I'm not going to lie the pictures that I've seen and been able to compare to the ones where chauncey hold are saying. Look in this picture taken in august of sixty three in new orleans
does appear to me that we have your walls in the picture, as well as a man that lowest gibson later identified as charles rogers and that chauncey halt later identified as charles rogers. One thing this important here to the that's interesting: is it in the mid nineteen fifty charles rogers joined this civil air patrol where he reportedly met David. Ferrie. who is believed to be a possible alleged conspirator and the assassination of president Kennedy as well.
Isn't he the only man that has actually been brought to trial? No, that was clay, shaw Davis place. It was brought to trial by garrison, but again, some of that people made a bunch of claims against saying that he knew who oswald was he denied it and then later they ve found pictures and then found out that there were in the same civil air patrol. So it's. as much as there's holes, there's a lot that are connecting the dots at least before we move on. I do want to mention Charles Harrelson was three times tried for murder. This is three separate murders this. The murder of Alan burg, SAM de gallia, and the murder of judge John H would junior that as well
that, during the stand off for his arrest, he admitted to killing the judge and Kennedy. This is how you tie him to being one of the three tramps and he does look like one of them. He went on to be convicted of two homicides and later I know that he attempted to escape prison on at least one occasion now. The problem here, though, captain is where this story falls apart. of these three men, two of them one one killer. The other Charles rogers believed very much to be a killer where this falls apart is it looks like shortly after the release of the book, the man from
grassy knoll. The three traps were identified, and none of them were what lowest gibson said, charles rogers, Charles Harrelson or chauncey hope here. But I think I think that three tramps have been done, a fine a million times now. I don't know if they been correctly identified. through correct right, they, the it's, been again various allegations of who the three traps were throughout the history ever since garrison held up that photo on the tunnel, So this has been going on since the late sixties. people say these guys were arrested, whoever they put their names down as that's who they were and they
May be had idea or had somebody check it out or whatever and then there's other people have said these guys were arrested and they use fake names. So I mean I have never heard any solid confirmation other than look at this picture and compare it with this other picture. Well, this is another confusing exploits sure. But the explanation goes as this is the three traps were identified in ninety ninety two as gus abrams, Harold Doyle and John get me. This is from journalist mary lay fond. chain who discovered the November 22nd. One thousand nine hundred and sixty three arrest records that the Dallas police department had released in nine in eighty nine, which named the three men as gus, w abrams, Harold Doyle and John F gidney. According to the arrest reports, the three men were taken
off a boxcar in the railroad yards right after President Kennedy was shot, detained and investigated as prisoners described as unemployed and passing through. The Dallas area then released four days later. an immediate search for the three men by the f b I and others, prompted by an article by ray and mary le fontaine on the front page of the february, ninth nineteen. Ninety two houston post. Less than one month later, the f b I reported the abrams was dead and that interviews with guinea and doyle revealed no new information about the assassination it being. The fbi's claim that they tracked down all three of these men and none of them used a fake name
when they were arrested and this report stating that the three traps in air quotes were held for about four days viewed by a current affair. Remember that old tv show. Ninety ninety two doyle came forward said that he- was aware of the allegations and did not come forward for fear of being implicated in the assassination he added quote. I am a plain guy. Is simple country boy? That's the way I want to stay. I wouldn't be a celebrity for ten million dollars. Kidney independently affirmed, Doyle's account and a researcher who tracked down abrams sister confirmed that aims lived the life of a train hopper and died in nineteen. Eighty seven
that all seems pretty firm to me having two of the individuals coming forward and then the sister of the deceased third tramp stating yes, everything seems on the up and up with these claims, where it gets wonky is that we have people that that push the idea and there's probably some proof to back this up. I'm guessing I've not seen it. I don't know
but they're, saying look, Dallas police have claimed to have lost the records of these arrests as well as the mug shots and fingerprints. So what are we to believe or about the identity of these quota? Quote three tramp's there, because a vehement of time, I predicted actually pull up three, maybe six different names that I have read in the past that don't match those names that that you're, just given that report. But but that's the problem with this case or the problem with the jib kiss ass nation case, what Really interesting is the ice box, murders, which is a very different book from that of the man on the grassy knoll. I do want to point out here with the man on
branzino the authors, I'm sure they've worked their butts off, putting together this book. It's an incredibly interesting book. I it was a fascinating, read now question. However, I don't want to jump way off subject. I just want to point this out the picture on the cover of the man with the grassy knoll. That's
to be Charles rodgers yeah right. I'm just gonna throw this out there, because I was watching that new show it's like sa unsolved mysteries, but it's called something like that with a laurence fishburne and they were gone over the db cooper case, and it wouldn't be that far off of a match for Charles roger I mean, I think they have db cooper being a little bit taller, but but now a lot taller and but I could see that photo matching a little bit of the the composite sketch yeah. I guess I mean Charles rodgers looks like you're, pretty average joe. There is nothing remarkable to me about him.
General appearance, so that that makes it difficult you could lump them in a whole bunch of different ways. The the problem with the theory put forth in the man on the grassy know is it really just seems to be a theory based off of Lois gibson saying: look. These three man's pictures match pictures that I've seen and I have of the three tramps and then they are compounding that with this quote, unquote: cocaine fashion of Charles Harrelson, while he's in the middle of a stand off and shoot out with police right. So it's very very, very loosey goosey. Now what isn't loosey goosey is the book the icebox murders, both of those authors say we believe Charles rogers murdered his parents.
Took this cadillac got added dodge hopped in his cessna and went down to south america where he lived and worked for several. Years and that no one he was being aided and abetted by people that still lived in the united states in the state of texas. They didn't come forward turn. Charles rogers, in because he was making a the amount of money for them in their mining operations down in south america right selling Fine, gold and oral, very valuable things and what happened to Charles rogers. According to the ice box, murders book, they did say that thing. That's interesting is look we couldn't find anything to connect him directly to the assassination of john F Kennedy. However, we found things that do connect him to the cia,
they don't say he ever worked for them or was contracted by the cia, but they said it is certainly possible. eleven, even when they open yeah what they believe happened, to charles rogers? Is it there was a wage dispute at one of these mining operations and the the miners attacked him and killed him with a pickaxe and through his body in a river and because of the nature of the attack, the heat, the river itself. The body was not able to be fully identify The best that they could come up with was a known associate of charles rogers. Was this man named John mackey who was running mining businesses in honduras and mexico. The honduras authorities went to jail
maxie saying that an american geologists had been killed by a group of minors with a pickaxe? They threw him in the river. Could you identify this man? He said I don't know who he is. But again, this book is not considered to be factual. sir, to be partially factual. Eighty five percent factual, so their clean there is that the Charles rogers.
I've been working for and making money for, John mackey at the time that he was killed by these miners, which is very possible ansari. Back to the whole point of the d dot b, cooper, history's greatest mysteries, it's hosted by laurence fishburne. They took on the d dot b cooper case, what's interesting about what they found normally, when they take on these greatest mysteries, they walk away with whatever they started. This is different. They actually walked away with dna that they're going to be at
to present to the f b I so now they believe they have db cooper's dna on file, and I'm saying just for the record. That's a very far stretch that Charles rogers is yet connected at all with db cooper hour, that he would be db cooper but were connected with jfk or yeah or oswald or any of them. But it's so fascinating that you have this horrific murder and
The number one suspect goes missing and we know that he worked for. You know he was in the navy, so he has other those connections, but he has also these connections and oil. Where we know boil a lot of money, money equals power. He would have a lot of resources to go like you said, impossibly live his life somewhere else which, if he's responsible for these murders, there is no way he should be living around anybody. It's an inch in case it still technically opened, even though Houston police believe they, Charles rogers, is absolutely responsible for the murder of his parents. What became of charles rogers, We don't know he's never been found even to this. day, all these years later, it's an intriguing case, an intriguing conversation with intriguing possibilities
The thanks for joining us here in the garage for more true crime garage, download, the stitcher app and check out our bonus show called off the record Well, do we have any recommended reading this way? It is with absolute great joy and excitement that we recommend the killers shadow, the f b I's hunt for a white supremacist serial killer by legendary f. Yeah. I profiles John Douglas. The killer shadow is available as of november seventeenth and all of the best forms hard cover, paperback audio book on audible and kendall, and you don't have to write that title down right now, as we have that great title and many others on our recommended page
at true crime garage dotcom an insult until next week be good, be kind and don't let him the.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-24.