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The Missoula Mauler /// Part 1 /// 431

2020-10-06 | 🔗

The Missoula Mauler /// Part 1 /// 431

Part 1 of 2


Two murders take place in Missoula Montana in early 1974. Both cases are mysterious and the public starts to wonder are these murders connected? In the mid-80’s a married Missoula couple is murdered inside their home. The killer attempted to burn the house down with the victim’s children still inside. Why is this killer terrorizing the people of Missoula Montana and will he ever be caught?

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The the welcome to true crime garage. Where view are whatever you're doing. Thank you for listening. I'm your hosts naked with me, as always, is a man that would like to remind us all to be where of what's in the sewers Derry Maine here is the captain yeah warning its poop
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The following is taken from a two thousand and six article from the independent record. Her girl is never far. citibank in thoughts. The girl lives in a tupperware box right now the boxes Hayden lake idaho, with a universe. of montana student who is studying her
But she'll soon be returned to missoula, for what bacon and others hope will be, the next step and figuring out who she is sydney bacon. as a masters degree in forensic anthropology from the universe city of montana knows the girl better than almost anyone. She detailed everything about her for her master's thesis, but someone somewhere knows her Someone knows the name that goes with the bones in the box it's very upsetting to me that she is on a missing persons report somewhere bacon said for now the girl. Known by other names case number. Eight hundred and fifty nine one zero, two christie crystal creek. for more than twenty years christie crystal creek, It's essentially the sole sister.
Another young woman known only as Debbie deer creek nude body was found in the deer creek drainage. On christmas eve, nineteen eighty four chris, These remains were found by a bare hunter, nine months later, scattered across a hillside in crystal creek one drainage over from dear creek Missoula county sheriff's captain Greg hence has known Kristy crystal creek from the start. known about the two bullets in her skull, known about the possible connection to a suspect captain. and is contacted on a regular basis by people who think Christie might be this woman or that. But far he's never made the match, but with the work being done in north texas, he is once again hopeful that Christie's identity might be closer to discovery. The technology,
he's out there and said all we have to do now is a little more work, primarily. We're consists of sending one of christie's bones to north Texas. Then it's a matter of crossing our fingers, there's no getting around it. We need some luck and said. The problem, of course, is that the north texas lab may produce a perfectly good dna sample and have nothing to match it. To have some enforcement agency somewhere doesn't have evidence on the or her family a man is unlikely and one of the key meth, of identifying remains, has already been tried and failed with Christie. She had very distinctive dentistry work, done bacon, set its unique work and extreme work chris
He had excellent and extensive dental care, and so maybe a year before her death, she had feelings and almost every tooth they had to rule now, including one in a relatively rare location, and then it all just stopped. About a year before she died, bacon said someone stop taking care of her or she stopped taking care of herself. That sort of dentistry is often enough to identify an unknown body. If someone a family member has given the dental, records to law enforcement so that they can be entered into the f b I's computerized national crime information center. But there's never been a match. That suggests that Christie might not be listed anywhere as a missing person. But it's also at least remotely possible the dental records weren't available christie was petite, maybe five foot tall,
eighteen to twenty one years old, it may be. One hundred pounds remains suggests the possibility of both caucasian and asian heritage and she was most likely right handed. She smoked and bacon speculates I have used drugs in the last years of her life. I don't think She was from around here, based on them amazon reacts to somebody going missing. She said. bacon, has long felt. Christie may be from the east coast a runaway most likely, but that's just a hunch. I want to help in any way. I can. I want her to be able to go home to a family. Bacon said it's now october of twenty twenty and christie crystal creek's. Real identity is still unknown. Christie crystal creek has been
added to the name is database. The fbi's violent criminal apprehension programme, better known as via cap at the dough network,. she is simply known, as three ufmt f female remains were discovered. Female September remains were discovered on september, ninth, nineteen, five recovered in a wooded area county montana. No clothing, jewelry or other personal effects were located. The victim's estimated date Death was approximately one year prior dental raise and dna are available for comparison to providers. quest additional information. Please contact them Zola county, sheriff's office at four zero, six, two five, eight three three three hundred or forty
an fbi, violent criminal apprehension program at eight hundred six, three, four, four zero, nine seven christie crystal creek is only one of the victims that we will be discussing this week. This is true, graham garage. Montana or big sky country, as I like to say, is the fourth largest state by area in this greatest of countries, the us and a weave done or four hundred episodes and weave only taken this flying garage ship to Montana one time before, and that was in July of this year for our cereal confessor episodes
now I have only seen pictures, but this looks like an absolutely stunning place to live. I'm talking about missoula Montana, with beautiful landscapes and earth. As far as the eye can see, you've got mountains and, of course, the big big. sky well here we are again, but this time we are not in popular montana, like the confessors shows this time We are in missoula the hub of the five valley and in relation to poplar, the other small towns in Montana. Missoula is the big city day. We have over seventy five thousand people living in missoula. Our story starts back in the mid seventies. Since then the population has more than doubled. So let's go back to nineteen. Seventy four! missoula Montana, to a city of about thirty thousand people on thursday April, eleventh nineteen, seventy four.
the pounds family got up and started their day as usual. This is a family of five very religious family living in east missoula. This time there are only four of the five family members living in the home. We have husband and wife, which is harvey and donna pounds who ve been married for quite a while by this time their son Kenny was out of the house. He is off serving this country in the armed forces there oldest daughter, Karen. She too, has grown, but still living at home and their youngest is cathy, who is only twelve years old. Harvey works at a local clothing store and does quite a bit of work for the church that his family attends Donna works part time at a near by christian bookstore. On this thursday, harvey and daughter karen will be going.
Off to work and Cathy she'll be going off to school Donna. She has the day off, but on this morning, she's going to go off with a friend and at the pounds home this morning, really is nothing but routine. Everyone left the house, including donna who, again has the day off, but she's picked up by a friend, would ride along with her friend, who made her avon delivery sets out. The captain spends a lot of his free time as well. Donna's friend returned and dropped her back off at the pounds home. This is some time after one p in the afternoon later that afternoon, Kathy the little girl twelve years old is the first one of the three to return to the home. She and a friend from school went to the pounds house they're doing typical. After school stuff, enjoying some snacks watching a little television a little.
Then, two hours later, the father husband harvey returns home from his day job when he arrived. He briefly spoke with kathy and her friend, and he inquired about the whereabouts of his wife. Harvey went upstairs to look for her there. He found several cut lengths of rope. This is very unusual in itself, but even more so because one the family did not, have any rope anywhere inside the home and to the different locations of these pieces of rope. There were pieces tied to the bedpost and one of the bedrooms.
Cut piece of rope dangling from the door knob in the bathroom and some rope tied to the hose is attached to the families washing machine. But despite these strange discoveries, his wife was nowhere to be found. Harvey decided to check the basement and there at the bottom of the stairs lying face down. But up against the wall waugh, was a lifeless body of his wife harvey knew she was dead and was the victim of an attack that took place inside his home yeah. Of course, he's going to tell his children to get out of the house they play wanted neighbour's house, but you definitely want to protect them from seeing their mother like that, yeah he's gonna call the police. and call for help the police arrive on the scene and we can go through some. The evidence here, cabbie, the
police arrived on the scene. This is what they're looking for is how this whole thing went down. Of course, and along with the rope evidence, they are able to determine the following fairly quickly that the killing took place some time between one p m, when dawn His friend dropped her off at the house and what they're a little murky on his did. This murder occur before kathy and her friend arrived at the house, which seems the most likely or when harvey arrived home, or did it occur shortly after he arrived home they're a little suspicious Of course, what seems like the perpetrator would have to spend a lot of time in the house. So possibly there with the left. Dna were fingerprints, so there's no sign of a break in.
There was little sign of of any actual struggle as well. This is concerning for police. The cause of death is five. Twenty two caliber bullets fired into the back of down his head. There was evidence at the scene that suggest that the killer, as you said, spent a considerable amount of time in the home. This could be a couple of hours. We talk about the cut links of rope. There are found in several different locations of the home now to very import the key elements to this murder. The weapon was found at the scene. Now this is not terribly uncommon, but more times than not when a gun is used in the commission of a homicide? It is removed from the scene. The killer takes it with them and I of the gun elsewhere or keeps it sometimes for the purpose of committing future crops,
yeah. Why do you think that is well in this case? The twenty two caliber death instrument was not only left at the scene, but was found pinned between the legs. Of the victim and even more curious. The I belong to harvey pounds, the husband, ok, so the poverty, comes and brings its own rope, probably brains zone knife does brings other things but uses the homeowners gun correct. That's the way that it looks. That's the way that it sounds Their discussion going on with harvey at the time now mind you harvey's, being pretty forthcoming. That's my gun, nor one, but he's the only one that can tell you if that rope came from the house or not, and he saying that we do have any rope in the house. That is not our rope. Now I read somewhere that this stuff was the hold back. Information means
how many times she was shot and where they and the gun and who the actually belong to re. I read several places. This said that that is the the whole back information now, I not calling bullshit on that, but if that was the whole information they manage to hold it back all of two days, because all three Those items were in the newspaper two days after the murder, that were in fact held back was that Donna's clothing was found in the upstairs master bedroom also found upstairs were some bullets This means that shots were fired in the upstairs of the house, not just the downstairs in the basement where we have our victim shot five times right, but do we know if she was sexually assaulted? It is believed that she was, but was that when she was alive or is up.
There is every indication that the sexual assault took place upstairs in the bedroom, where we found the rope and they held that back at the time for two days, They held that back for quite some time, actually, along with it. The stuff that I just went through, but though idea that this initial stuff was gonna be held back seems like a big deal. the problem is because the murder weapon belonged to harvey pounds. It's tough to hold that back right because now, you have a concern that he might be your suspect right and, if you're walking into this case as an investigator you're going okay who's, the most likely suspect bing bing bing? Bang, the husband all bing bing bing bing, it's his gun Then you start wondering: did they get in argument and then did he staged this whole scene,
make it look like something that wasn't it now Yeah immediately harvey was a suspect. This, of course, makes a lot of sense he's the husband. You know, we've all seen the shirts that say the husband did. It took grandpa camp, the murder of whistles, and we don't have those able the murder. I've been belong to him as we said, and he fell. The body right, everyone knows that the husband or the spouse is not only often an early suspect, but If you watch three episodes dateline on two of them, the spouse turns out to be the murderer. Right then compound this with it is his gun and he found the victim. It's also not terribly uncommon for the person who could I found the victim to actually be the one who committed the murder right and of course you have to, during that there is no sign of forced entry, so either mrs pounds let the killer into the home.
Or the killer somehow had access to the home or just want stop on that for a second cousin. Right now you say the population is seventy five thousand today, yes right so back, then thirty thousand and right, so not a people, I guarantee you. A lot of people were not locking every door, but there are a couple problems with the theory that harvey killed his wife first, the police, had to other leads on the case that needed to be investigated. axed. Mrs pounds was alive and well when Harvey karen and Cathy left for the day. She is alive and well when her friend drops her off at one p m, Cathy and her friend did not see nor encounter any one else. Inside the whole, until her father returned over an hour after the two kids arrived. So if We are to believe our witnesses, Cathy and her friend, then
his donna pounds was dead before harvey even returned from work now going, Canst harvey is someone in the neighborhood who says that they think that they saw harvey's vehicle at the pounds house at some point during the day, but couldn't be sure, harangue look. I am all for sea something say something but you're running a risk here of of locking this man up for the rest of his life. By going, I I saw him his vehicle at their house sometime during the work day. We have five shots so doing by that's. Your witness now we have no ear witnesses in the case and that's what's weird, because we know that the five shots the that killed this poor woman took place in the basement of the home. Okay, so that's somewhat,
You can explain that away. Maybe that muffles the sound a little bit, but there's evidence that shots were fired at in the upstairs of the home as well. But again, maybe maybe everybody's just gone. Maybe everybody else is just at work or at school during the time that this murder took place the problem, With the idea of this neighbour, saying I might have seen harvey's vehicle at the pounds house during the daytime. We have several people who say and confirm that harvey was at work, that day for the entirety of the work day right. So this I might have seen vehicle doesn't seem like such such a it's definitely not a congo. Thing, but it doesn't even seem like a good possibility at this point. Okay, so what are these other two leads in this case. The first comes from the statement of a another potential witness. This is a neighbor.
at some time during the day they saw a young man in the pounds backyard he described the young man as someone who lived down the street, you looks like this kid that lives down the street: a white guy young, maybe roughly twenty years of age, so police went to where it was thought that this young man lived and they said with a guy named wayne, nance he's eighteen at the time wayne fit the description, and not only did he I live in the neighborhood and he's lived there for several years. He lives there with his father and brother and they got a fairly big family. I believe mother, father in four kids, including wayne. He was friends with the pounds. Son Kenny, remember
me is off at the army at this time right. So he knows the pounds family not just by living in the neighborhood. He was good friends with this kid at one point in their lives. Wayne had been inside the pounds home on several occasions, police questioned the young man who said he had been home the entirety of the day, nursing a cold. He says I've mostly been sleeping and watching tv so he doesn't really have much of an alibi he supposed to be in school that day, right police. strongly question wayne's lack of a real alibi and they decided key, him on their very short list of suspects, but other than that they do I have much to go on plus they had that other led his kids skins school draken back the old robot, toughened jerking off too the price is right? This other lead they found is quite suspicious
A young man, nineteen years of age, his name, clyde, wicks durum, was found on interstate ninety about twelve miles outside of town. When he's found, he's dying from a self inflicted gun, shot to the head. Oh clyde was rushed to the hospital where he soon died, police wandered and publicly. They wandered and said this to the papers. Could it be that clyde was the young man spotted in the back yard of the pounds home nodded. Did he have a gun on him at the time? Yes, he did of it so that to me I know away because why would he use Why would he use the homeowner's gun when he had a gun with him? That's a good question. You know they. They asked the papers we're asking and wondering: did he attack and kill? Mrs,
pounds and then due to the guilt or fear of getting caught or both that he decide to take his own life. That's the thing, though, the percentage of these killers that are actually guilty or fill anything is pretty small. It can be. I mean everybody has a different reaction to to their actions and maybe the person Oh god, I want to go down that road, because it's a long one and its going to lead us nowhere because you pointed out, clyde they take his own life. He used his own gone Why would he choose to use the pounds twenty two found inside the home and if clyde new, on used in the murder could not be tied to him. Well, then you start to wonder: what's my chances of getting caught right, but so have we have these two leads us Simple wayne has been in their house, so if his fingerprints are in the house is kind of high
say when they got there, this guy clyde. He has no connection to the family, of his fingerprints prints anywhere in the house, then he's guilty yeah the theory quickly, unraveled in just a little over twenty four hours after the murder of mrs donna pounds, the missoula county sheriff's office announced that any possible can Jim, between the murder of mrs pounds, mother of three and the death of nineteen year old clyde. Wicks room had been ruled out. the
all right. We're back cheers maids, he's back, I'm that these acts tall, cannes in the air, every robot us in the air within days. The shares department announce another possibility that there could be a connection between mrs pounds, murder and the slave. I have a billings Montana couple that was murdered in their home a little more than six months before mrs pounds was murdered. Law enforcement from both cities announced that they would be working together to see if there was in fact the connection between. What the sheriff was calling to bizarre sets of crimes right, but this makes the whole community go on high alert, yeah yeah, and we should
without that the city's, although in the same state in montana, is a big state and the two cities of missoula and billings are about a five hour drive from one another, so in the same state, but not really close at all. Okay, so let's go through the double slayings in billings Montana. This is a young married couple, and this is MR and mrs clifford and linda bernhardt. They were found dead inside their home by Linda's mother. She was. Unable to reach her daughter and son in law by phone for a couple of days and decided to go to the home to investigate and found both of them dead in an obvious double homicide. The couple were both twenty four years of age.
and had been married for four years, and they recently moved into this home. I think it might even have been a new build. Clifford was an army sergeant and Linda worked at the grocery store. Clifford was found lying face down in a pool of blood. Linda was found in a bedroom, sexually assaulted and strangled. There was no sign of forced entry into the home. There was evidence that both victims at one time during the attack, were tied at the wrist and ankles, but detectives did not locate the bindings at the scene, so mean The killer took them with him, also taken from the scene where several of Linda's personal items, this included a suitcase and some of her clothing. But there were some even more bizarre things about this crime scene one. It appeared that the couple
getting ready to sit down for their evening dinner when something terrible happen, meaning they were attacked just before supper. Tat dinner was prepared and set out on the counter, as if it was about to be served even more strange. The table was set, but not for two people. The table set for three people, it was looking like the bernhardt dinner guest either. Never arrived or killed them both to their language, There are serving cried another odd behaviour of the killer. Would you like to solid turned the heat way down in the home and opened up several of the windows in the couple of days that it took for the bodies to be found? The low temperature was six degrees he's during those days now, if any connection was made between
These two horrific crimes at that time It's really unknown and probably not likely. but it was never really mentioned again. They said twenty eight These are going to work together on this and then it kind of disappears from the news. Did we have any tampering with, though thermostat at the pounds home right now we did not, so course. This is something we have seen in many other cases where law enforcement will say they are looking for connection either between two somewhat similar. times or maybe a location. You know, we've we've covered cases where they start talking about pig farms, church gun stores, state park even stating that they are looking for connection to unknown offender. Someone recently picked up for something completely else right after a couple days
it just fades from the news they don't ever really announce all we were looking at this guy and we d find anything it just kind of goes away and we don't hear much about it again. What we do here about, in the donner pounds case is a surgical glove. The sheriffs department, of course canvas the area a meal italy going door to door, asking questions, that's how they got the lead on the wane, nance, the witness who said they saw young man in the pounds back yard, and that was what led them to question him and said. it was a senior in high school in some of the officers, thought this type of horrible heinous act could not have been perpetrated by some kid from the local high school. This surgical glove, however, was quite morton and of course they thought so, and it was not ever hold back information that the authorities found the glove just outside of the pounds,
Perhaps it was a single latex or what some would call a rubber surgical glove. It look like someone had just tossed it on the ground Is an amazing how many cases are somewhere like when you think of the actions that probably took place in the pounds home the instruments that were brought the way she was found, the way that she was bound. That really reminds me a lot of like p k, but then you have this glove found out in the yard or my room my lord of the terror grinstead case. Well, you see what type of people litter what type of losers who litter yeah you litter you're? Obviously a psychopath that raise lesson kids, so this glove?
important because they believed there was blood on it, so they sent it to the. fbi. Crime labs for analysis thought to be the best at the time. They are hoping for two results one, the very unlikely chance, the glove contained, both the killers blood and the victims or fingerprints from the person who took the glove off at this time. Of course, captain they would just be simply looking for blood type. They could directly connect the killer to the victim or, at the very least, match the victims blood. So they know that the glove was used in the commission of the cry. My but, of course the test would take time and regardless of what the results came back
with law enforcement wanted to find the match to this glove, write another single glove in someone's possession, or even a box of gloves that match this glove. So the sheriffs off asked ask everyone in the area for their help. They were very public about this surgical glove. Finding. They want to know. Has anyone seen gloves like this in someone's possession or they know anyone that uses these types of gloves. More importantly, if people could go outside and check their yards to see if the second was discarded elsewhere or maybe even the gloves were tossed together and all got something made off with one of them. We ve cover true crime story We're doll, show up running back to their owners, with both or body parts rain? So the moving of a glove does not seem strange at all. Now like with most sounds cap,
and there are going to be some local rumors and some of them make their way to the police. Or even the newspapers and some of them don't and just like this case, the rumours from the seventies and eighties, when there is an unsolved mark when there is an unsolved murders, are always very interesting. We are coming up on a hollow wean, the old trick or treat time, and we ve covered plenty of cases where they cancel beggars night because of local mars because of an unsolved murder and local rumours right. So what were some of the local rumours here in mozilla at the time. I am going to warn you I'm not going to go through all of them, because there were quite a bit. There was a a bunch of stuff swirling around and We would later learn that the majority of them don't carry much weight they're, just not true, but the more interesting one,
this world around was the idea of a cold or witchcraft being involved, in the donner pounds- murder one rumour tied to her play to the murder of donna. Is that an individual involved in the occult or satanist the killer, the rumor, was that either a no or a letter of some type was found near donna pounds, crime scene that describe the quote ritual that was individual needed to kill three people to give themselves to Satan. Alright, the need to kill three people. First, according to this rumor they needed to kill or
her face. A virgin then kill or sacrifice someone who is a faithful christian and then the third murder would be that of a betrayer. If this is true, then donna pounds, the wife of harvey who spends most of his time working for the church rate. She must be the faithful, christian follower. Okay. So that means that some someone, the virgin already been murdered and then donna pounds was killed and some one else, a third victim still needs to to die, or this a contest or satanist for them to achieve their goal. So who was the virgin will? Sadly, there was a local case to connect that theory to, and that was the very soon a case that started just two months earlier, with the abduction of a little girl on tuesday february fifth, nineteen. Seventy four young stir described as precocious and friendly
this- is little five year old, chauvelin mcguinness. She vanished around seven p m on that night in early february, She was last seen by her neighborhood friend at approximately seven p m, that her friend's house, the friend lives in neighborhood around six, thirty p m. heavens mother, Bonnie called the friends house, spoke wish of on tells her. She needs to come home soon. The two little girls walked from the friends house, headed in the direction of chiffons home right. When the two reached at the halfway mark. This is right near whittier, school three blocks from Chauvin home, the two parted ways, but what kind of school is it elementary middle school high school? I have no idea, but it
The papers just said whittier school again. This is only about three blocks from chauvelin home. The two part ways friend turned around and is going to head back to her house. chauvin, presumably continued on her way, however, never made it to her home. Now report her missing at eight hundred and forty five p dot m. Now the search intensified after a report of an attempted assault, on another five year old in the neighborhood that day. According to police ports, a man with curly red hair, talked this other girl into a shack or a shed on the north side of missoula and try to molest her the girl. According to the papers escaped unharmed, the february seventh newspaper featured a skit each of the man saw in the molest station attempt police did say
that there was no official link between the two gripes doing. It's an older man or younger man. Judging by the sketch, it appears to a younger man. another lead was a report that came in from another local school. This is from the paxton school officials, They said a man was seen near their school in children to get into his car, so that he could take pictures of them now. That's it that's an innocent hobby. Isn't it yeah? The description of this man did not match that of the description of the man saw in the molest station with people. You know I mean what's wrong with people well and then you got to go further and you go okay, what is scarier? Do we have one guy going around to multiple schools looking for a potential victim or do we have three individuals who were all deviates into different, weird stuff. My.
Unfortunately, cap inch of the body was found in a covert by a county road worker at the turret. I believe it's pronounced her tea. You are a h exit from interstate ninety. She was found at approximately three forty five p m on thursday. February. Seventh, the body was reported to be bloodied and there was a blood trail found beneath a new layer of snow. So it's early february, it's cold, Oh, it's montana, which gets even colder than here. They were experience. snow fall within several a period of several days? An however this blood got there s head It got there and it was on top of some snow, but then there was an additional layer of snow that had fallen on top of this blood trail
things going on. Here, though there were no human footprints found. In the area, but there were several dog prints, found in the area a mind you they find this trail, a blood that Lee down from the road out to this call her where He is eventually discovered underneath that layer of the new layer of snow right, but dog, didn't transfer out there. Well, you just you just. totally poked holes. In my my theory, I was going to say have not not found anything to confirm my suspicions, but I think it's possible. She was dumped right the side of the road and then dragged the dogs dragged the body to where she was eventually found. Okay, look is it possible, but why don't? We have some drag marks on the body, drag marks in the area we could. We could it's. I just
Yet we are that we find dog tracks, but no human prince by it, but also that might give you a clue of one. The body was left because if the, if it was dry cold, we want to have any foot ants of a human. She was found frozen and fully clothed. Now witnesses reported seeing two distinct vehicles in the area the dumpsite, maybe even roughly the time that it's believed that she could have been dumped. One of the report states that the police were looking for a nineteen, fifty nine or one thousand nine hundred and sixty ford fairlane with montana license plates the other, and this seems to be more if they were more focused on this other vehicle and you'll, see why here in just a sec,
A heavy focus on this vehicle: this was either a nineteen, fifty eight to nineteen sixty So19, five thousand eight hundred and fifty nine or one thousand nine hundred and sixty green cadillac with new york plates. That's very interesting. has this car sounds even more distinctive, then the other and plus we have the out of state plates right. So am I have been noticed by other people in the area at the time or even the town over one, not a close neighboring state right. and yeah, because you have new york and then you have parts unknown and then Montana, If I had known as huge right here in our high, oh and there's a highly in you see like indiana license plate, not that big of a deal right, you see kentucky or if he can see, see Michigan than ever, give a deal. But you see a new york license plate you all that it always sticks out of it
look by our captain Owsley, usually out that there's a new york city playing are so there. His interesting, though, to because, along with this description of the car, we get a description of the driver of this car. They those like a guy from new york city s, the describe the driver is described as a middle aged white man wearing dark clothing and a baseball cap. The left, rear, fender skirt on the vehicle was missing. so even more descriptive nests of dense a word. Later on the autopsy revealed that the little girl died from multiple stab wounds and she had been sexually assaulted now, regardless, whether The two unsolved murders were connected, and I know we've covered several murders by this point, but I'm about donna pounds and chauvelin mcguinness, the little girl
while the reason why I wanted this comment is the idea that I think in the pounds case, it almost seems like the perpetrator, had this idea or had this plan, and then it gets which the round, once he found the gun of the homeowner, meaning like you, so just because they were just because the murders happened by the different inflictions or injuries. I want a separate the two necessarily correct. Maybe he showed up with the knife. Did he used on chauvelin mcguinness undecided? That's not! I was a guy or threatened The whole manner you any weapons and she she reveals where, though with a weapon, may be and then decide
to use all our use the gun, because there's no connection to me and I'll just leave it here, because if I don't take it with me again, no connection to me yeah, but I also think on some level just be easier like that you have to have some kind of More of a role, emotion, more pop, possibly a hatred for the individual like they said, wouldn't, there's a stabbing victim, it's normally a crime of passion. Well, Maybe these are just sexually motivated crimes. Then you have to murder the person to cover it up, but the murderer is just to cover it up as not part of the sexual fantasy right in there in lies, some more difficulty when I, when I look at both of these crimes, where you go. Ok, what why is murder necessary to cover up the scribes that usually
points to the victim could identify the perpetrator, not just in description, but maybe even knows them by name and little girl, her circle is much smaller. Socially, then then an adult, who's in her late thirties. Early forties. generally, an adult will have a much larger social circle then have four five or six year old child. But what I'm saying is that I think this perpetrator is. I think this murderer knows his victims without the victims, knowing him as well as he knows regardless, whether or not the two unsolved murders were actually connected They were now linked in the minds of the public, and this will be for a couple of reasons: one they satanic panic letter rumor that was going around
gotta kill, virgin gotta, kill a follower. Gotta kill betrayer. That means it. This person has achieved steps one in two and now is looking for their third victim, The second reason, the murder rate is very very low in this area of the country, Montana has a very low murder rate, especially at this time at the mid seventies. Usually have one or two murders a year, sometimes none, but when they had murders they were solved. They were solved easily. It all too often was the usual suspects, the husband or the boyfriend did it Or someone the victim had been feuding with committed the homicide. So these are linked in the minds of the public simply because they get that many murders and both of these ones are sitting there unsolved at the time two murders
extreme differences and victimology in my opinion, but still must be connected because they occurred within two months in a few days of each other, and they are both unsolved back to the donna pounds case. We still have some suspects and there was rumors surrounding our victim's husband, harvey pounds. Local rumor was that he was having an affair leading up to the murder of his wife. Detectives investigated this angle, quite thoroughly as the local rumoured was. detailed enough that it often named the woman that harvey was though to be having this affair with police spoke to this woman on several occasions and after another if the they were having a hard time, believing that the affair rumor was even true, but one thing they didn't like was harvey
harvey was not only fully cooperating with the investigation Well those weird stories kept where we hear all the time this guy quit talking to police the boyfriend or the husband was not cooperating Right with police, this is one of those we're ties where they go. He's fully operating and we don't feel good about it. They say that he was little too cooperative. He was constantly out in his yard and walking the neighborhood looking for clues. And then calling the sheriff's department reporting every irrelevant small find that he came across. They thought it was he was trying to steer the. The geisha in Riyadh, like he. He sprang up something he found a block over. I found this rock on the side of the road and they're gone. I use you just thrown us off the south.
Right. That's what their thoughts are. Can you imagine this guy, let's say he's innocent right, let's say he's the victim here, his wife has just been killed and he's been told. I police all we're investigating this lead that somebody was seen in your backyard. We're investigating this lead so much so. Point where we're begging the public for their help that we found the surgical glove. Could you all go out your yards and look for the second one is seems to me, like he's kind of doing what the police are asking the public to do walk in the neighborhood in his yard. Looking for that other surgical glove, for at right. There like go out and look for this and he's looking for it and they're like man right, but MR harvey pals. Don't you dare go out and look for this stuff? You seem a little suspicious when you do it. They thought that it was like he was trying to steer the investigation. Maybe he's trying to direct the narrative of the evidence that we are now the tide of the evidence. We don't know that
demeanor of this individual either cause like now gone back to the original when the investigators show up, and you have to talk to the husband knowing what we know, knowing that the percentages is most likely that the spouses involved in the murder of another spouse. So when you show up you, don't want to just assume that you don't want to. that they're guilty before you have any proof of that, but you're going to be looking at them with suspicious eyes anyways. Well now, the issue within the sheriff's department itself, you kind of had a sp down the middle of opinions with the officers and the investigators had half the room that seem to know harvey pounds pretty well, and they understood how religious this man was and
we're going, he could have never have killed his wife because that's not in his nature. That's not who harvey is he's not a violent individual he's very involved in his church and then Add the other half of the room gone maybe these rumors are true. He certainly looks like a good suspect he's the husband. His gun was used to kill this woman so you really had a split down the middle within the sheriff's department. These people arguing these officers, arguing amongst each other as to what the direction of the investigation should be right One thing that harvey reported that the sheriff's department did not like at all was a bullet that he found inside his home. He said that he found a bullet lodged. inside of a book that was in the rooms on a bookshelf in the upstairs
problem. Is the sheriff's department had with this bullet that harvey pounds found? Was they couldn't believe that they didn't find it? This could have simply been one of the shots that was fired upstairs and they didn't find this bullet for whatever reason now the way that this was found, The way that I understand it to be anyway, captain was that the book was position, as such on the shelf that the not deep binding, or whatever you the spine, was an hour. It was the pages. The pages side was out, so This bullet was fired from wherever in the room it got lodged in some pages of the book. But there was another rumour there was going around at the time, and this has nothing to do with harvey pounds, and this was something that started off sounding like a rumour but could actually be really true:
the rumor was that this odd kid in school, his name wayne nance, he's the same one that's already been questioned by police that kid that skipped school because he was feeling. Well, on the same day that donna pounds was murdered. The rumor going around school was that Nancy told a few other students that he was going to kill someone before he turned nineteen years of age. See again they're all connected they're all little pieces of the same puzzle. This reminds me of Damien. Echols right hey, that's one thing that kept popping up and you are mentioned BT, K and you'll, see some Things that will remind you of the golden state killer as well. This is We are very fascinating case
and these rumors that are going around at the school nance says to a couple: people hey, I'm going to kill somebody before I turn nineteen he's eighteen. time he's running out of time. If that's, what he's really going to do? I mean back high school, no middle school. I don't remember ever hearing somebody say any. Like that, I thought was like insane like this lately and say I mean I heard him say a lot of dams yeah. I heard a lot of dumb shit, but I told people have went to be bad man when I grow up still workin on that, although I too, my job application, the other day, failure city mayor denied my application, I'm batman, if you get a call by the way on the mouth of a use you as a reference in you, you need a answer: the phone vandals industries for the next few days. So this kid here's what weird about this? Oh captain, the principal catches win,
Of this in it's not because he's you know how the halls and here's these kids speaking the kids that that nance supposedly told this to they weren't going around school and blabbing this to everybody, no because once donna power. is found murdered in the navy where'd nance lives, these it's our blabbin about it, because there are free to all of a sudden thereafter. and they ve already heard the rumour of the occult letter or say panic. Note that was supposedly found in the area of the crime scene- even there, this afraid in general, not afraid of wayne. No, I think it's twofold. I think they afraid in general, because there is a killer out there, but they're they're extra afraid, because they think they know the killer. They think it is a kiss kissing the method of theft.
of the kids that was in very good upstanding with the school with the teachers and the principal his name was bill and he knew nance fairly. Well, I wouldn't call them friends, but he goes to the principal and he says look. This is what wayne Nance was telling people before donna pounds was killed. that he was going to kill someone before he turned nineteen wayne is weird We just all thought it was wayne being wayne now pounds is dead and in a roundabout way, bill tells the principal, I believe I was trying to tell me that he killed donna pounce. How this comes about is built, in one day he's hanging out with wayne at school. Again I they're, not, they don't seem to be friends, they just know each other from school right they might have to sit beside each other in class
and wayne said something to bill like it has been done or it is done and mind you bill. Has this donna pounds murder on his mind, so he thinks that that's what wayne is referencing and wayne tells him? No, I'm he he's talking about something else. Bill doesn't believe him bill is afraid enough that he goes to the principal to tell him this begging The principle does not don't tell anybody other than the police. The principles in this way bar because he's gone awry. You know, kids will be kids here is We got several years under his bell. He knows how kids behave, how teenagers behave and he's gone is something that I go to the police with, or is this just something weird that this kid is telling me again you go to the place and let them do so Our victim is in her early forties. The person that is rumored to be a suspect is white.
Nancy was a senior in high school. The principal does mentioned this to the the sheriff he calls the head honcho at the sheriff's department discusses what is I on there now the principle is, unaware at this time that the sheriff's department actually spoke to wayne nance. early in their investigation Now what you have remember, we have the split at the sheriff's department, where half of them believe that harvey pounds killed his wife and the other half didn't want the half? They did not believe that harvey pounds kill his wife. They way. Nance killed, thought about. what you have here. Is you have arguments going on within the department of people saying get me a search warrant? Let me put the pressure on harvey pounds and I'll get a confession or I'll get the evidence. You need to convict harvey pounds you have other half of the room saying we need Look into this wayne. Nance kid, this
be some serious stuff here. What they do is they bring both of them in for a polygraph test. Wayne nance passes the polygraph with flying colors according to his answers. He had nothing to do. Nor knows nothing about the murder of donna pounds. The results of heart. Pounds is test, are inconclusive the I think everybody for joining us here in the garage. A lot of people have been talking about the netflix documentary american murder, about Chris watts. We covered that case. It's titled, christopher watts, episode two hundred and sixty nine and two hundred and seventy you can find those episodes for free, just download the stitcher app
and also check out. Our bona show called off the record join us back here in the garage tomorrow. Until then be good, be kind and don't let us.
Transcript generated on 2022-07-25.