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the welcome to true crime garage. Where have you are whatever you're doing thanks for listening, I'm your host, nick and with me, as always, is a man who would like to remind you that the garage is gladiator territory, so act accordingly. Here is the captain not entertain

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what were they can rise? Writer, blogger researcher and pod cast host. He co host the true crime, podcast criminology. He has extensively researched and consulted on the zodiac killer and golden state killer cases. The morph, as he is often affectionately refer to, as is an expert on all things, zodiac killer and all things golden state killer. So mike welcome to the garage- and I want to start off by asking- why are those two cases so important to you

you ve spent years, researching both why those cases or thanks offer for inviting me to come on it. It pleasure, and you guys are one of the people, one of the teams that inspired me to become a podcaster. So thank you for that only case, I started out on the reading about in high school, where those words majors in the 80s that, just name's oda agone, the personnel that came with it. I want we're a little bit more about it. So I had a book on serial killers that I read and then I got the book zodiac by rob. gray smith. You know from there. I just read it and did a book. We're on it and then the teacher wasn't too happy that I picked that as a subject to write a book report on You know something just the sinister aspect of that case: grab me in the fact that someone who call themselves zodiac and write letters to the press and then attacked people wearing and executions

hood just really reeled me in and I miss it sort of stuck and grow up, watching unsolved, mysteries and stuff like that, but the the zodiac was one thing that really rarely I attached to him and stuck with before the golden state killer, ears ons. You know the case with so many names was solved. Joseph James deangelo has been arrested man who is, I take a lot of joy out of seeing how frail he looks these days. Hopefully, his time is coming to an end. Soon, he's like seventy five or so years old. When you started diving into the golden state killer case was that you kind of looking for some more zodiac cases. I mean zodiac claimed that he would go on to kill and kill again and he if taunting us sending communications with a growing number on it. Where you look looking for additional zodiac cases. Is that what led you to golden state killer

really they're the golden state killer before the easter rapist. IRAN's thousand named yet aware of the case because of some other researchers that thought they might be connected to the zodiac case. I never did their two different kinds of killers in their ammo and and just totally in opposite ends of the spectrum, but I was aware of the case and I used to communicate any mail back and forth with the late michelle mcnamara, who obviously road pretty impactful book on the golden state killer case and she had reached out and asked? If I had any interest in poking around in the golden state killer case- and I told her- you know thanks, but I'm sort of wrap in all things, zodiac at the time

so. She went on down her rabbit holes in the golden state killer case and then after she passed away, I sort of reflected and felt guilty that I hadn't taken her up on that offer I sort of dove into the case, and you know I knew some different people that were investigators and they open some doors for me and I became friends. Some of the survivors and victims of the angels and that's how I sort of went down that that path. Do we have an idea of how the zoo D I came up with his name or is it? Does something random will lead in this sort of thing, I don't really know, he's the one that gave himself that name and in one of his early letters. He said this is the zodiac speaking and he most of his letters with across here. Looking for circle, and there's a watch that episode

I mean brand watch and it has a her lulu logo as it's sort of visit symbol. So if you put them, together. That seems to me, like the most likely place that it came from, but there's all kinds of theories that he was maybe into the astrology and stuff like that. Yeah and we see things like mathematics, coordinates on maps astrology. Of course, horoscopes have been famous and popular throughout time, especially in the late sixties. So there's all kinds of thoughts that can be applied to how this individual came up with the name. Obviously he's going to want to pick something that sounds ominous. He wants to be threatening and terroristic almost in in nature, and so it almost seems fitting to

pick such a vague name, but also something that sounds, sounds a little evil or at least mysterious. That's that's my take on it as well. Now we all know the killers can inspire other killers, or at least they tend to imitate one another on occasion and as far as the soda goes some cases they come to mind immediately for me, are like son of SAM I've, always kind of thought of him as a zombie act. Wanna be kind of a sloppy here, dumb down version of the zodiac. The phantom killer case out of texts are Anna sounds like early sodium type stuff and then just the idea of, writing the letters in communicating with law enforcement and the press. I mean that takes us all the way back to jack the ripper. What are you take mike from any of these other killers out there? What do you think zodiac took from any of these other

hours with the attacks of of people in some of those areas like on lovers lanes were the phantom killer struck or some sam straw Those are easy opportunities and to find people that attention they're out in isolated areas, they're easy targets, and I think that's perhaps why he searched for people like that, and so I went searching for different cases we'll see united states with lover's lane scenario attacks and did they distort started piling up some, so many couldn't keep track. So that's that's a trend. that's that's been going on early, but as far as back as early maintain hundreds were, people would be attack that the key differences. Is someone like son of sam or jack the Ripper, sending letters and notes and correspondences

that's very rare. So when zodiac did that, you know that was rare, you can go through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of case in california, and and there were lots of bad guys running around, but most of them didn't want to communicate with police. They wanted to stick to their own their own attacks and in not if the police anything to work with, whereas zodiac seemed to crave the press, I think that actually took over as his main motivation and comparing comparison to the golden state killer case, for example,

Joseph de Angelo didn't really taunt the police or newspapers he taunted victims, because he like reliving the pain that he inflicted on them. So he would call them years afterwards, but element of a different thrill for him versus zodiac warning see his name in the newspapers. I think that was a key difference. The first confirmed attack for the soda act at lake. Herman road was an absence, a success for the killer. He achieved what we set out to war. What we can believe he set out

achieve any way he successfully attacked and killed both of the victims and didn't find himself in a situation where there was much of an eye witness to identify him as the killer, with the exception of one witness saying they, they possibly saw a white vehicle parked near David faraday's vehicle on that night. That leads us to a similar, but slightly different situation at the next confirmed. Attack at blue rock springs where he is unsuccessful, in the sense that he leaves one of the victims alive, he intended to kill both of them. We know that, based off of his phone call he's calling to report a double murder, not realising that he left one of the the victims alive MIKE Michaud. One thing I found interesting about

this attack, in particular variations of stories in and what went down, how the attack went down and just the the couple of events leading up to the two of them being parked abu rock springs park. Can you tell just through, maybe not necessarily the changing stories or the different versions. But it looked to me like that. Most of these different versions are coming from MIKE Michel is. Is that correct and in what are your feelings on on the different variations of these stories? Yet might Michaud story has chow changed a lot over the years from July. Nineteen sixty nine when it happened to recently he was featured in a two thousand and seven documentary that came out with the zodiac movie, dvd release and his story changed quite a bit in essence early on. He said that he had been picked up by

lean Farren and they d If Europe, MR adds a local hangout out those popular with you most younger people, for whatever reason, darlene cut doubt while there and decided to drive away and go privacy and they decided to go to blue rock springs park, which is very dark again. It is always those areas where people might go to hang out to make out whatever it's where they wound up some key things that happened were they were there for a couple minutes. Some kids came in through some firecrackers and stay there raise hell for about five minutes and then left, but just after that, a car came in and pulled up next to means car and sorted. This sat there and darlene and MIKE had the conversation. Do you know that person? Who is that? And they really know, and after a minute or two, the car drove off. So they sat

listen the radio talking and then about five minutes later car came back to the mike thinks, was the same car and came into the parking lot look directly behind them. Someone got out shine. A bright light into darlings car, blinding simply darlene and mike, and then he walked up to mike side and they actually thought it was the police. So proceeded to start getting their licenses out and mike looked up and was shot immediately through the window and darlene was shot both of them were shot several times. That's been consistent for, for the most part, the shooter back in his car and was about to leave and mike started flailing around after being shot and the shooter got back out of the car and fired two more shots into the into darlings car hitting mike again in. I and then this time he drove away. That's always been consistent. That's what

said early on, but in the end documentary years later, there's some things that change he. He mentions that they were being chased and pursued from mr dot at high rates of speed, and that's not what's in the police report. Nothing like that isn't they just decided to go there instead and totally was driving and then in early on, they didn't know who the shooter was in when they were having reputation amongst themselves, but then he next hey? The name was richard. She said something about richard and if you watch documentary. It's plain to see that he's suffering from Mental illness may be some kind of addiction. I don't know, I'm not. I don't know what he might be suffering from, but I think that's affected his account of. What's happened over the last. You know, years. In his initial report, he saying that the vehicle was very similar to darlene

so it would have either been a chevy, corvair or others have said- maybe a ford mustang because they would have had similar body type, and he says was pretty much the same color as darlings. Maybe a little bit lighter. What are your thoughts on the vehicle description? I think it because it so dark out there and he's probably is intense number to make out with darlene. It probably wasn't paying a lot of attention and I think a lot of course back then looked a lot alike so for him not to people a pinpoint the details of the corridor. I totally get that. I understand that, but I think

based on what he said it did have some kind of similar features to darlings over the thing that jumps off the page. To me in regard to the first two attacks: not only are they very close in proximity, I think it was roughly about two miles distance between the first double murder and then the double murder attempt that left MIKE michaud alive when you cross reference the events of that night. The stories I found might say that both couples went to Mr Ed's restaurant and drive in

prior to going in parking, and I mean that just jumps off the page to me, because I'm I'm sitting there thinking if I'm some dude in my late, twenties or however old zodiac may have been at the time if you're looking for a car involved in young love, MR adds makes a perfect sense to to park. There hang out there and in the dark hours of a weekend night or a friday night for that matter and find your pray there and follow them to where they end up parked yeah, that's that's the happening place back then was miss. Fred's, you know there's an interesting connection in that one of the lake herman road witnesses,

just not only for the shooting on the road that night worked at mister. It's so there's that connection as well. One thing, that's very different about the blue rock springs attack in comparison to the lake herman road attacked. Is that the voting act then calls the police dispatcher and says hey. I just committed a double murder: here's where you're going to find the kids in a brown car and by the way I killed those kids last christmas as well. There there's a a decent gap in time minutes missing there about twenty two thirty minutes based off of our ear witnesses of when the the couple was shot. Louis rock springs and when the phone call came in, what are your thoughts on what zodiac could have been up to during that time frame? I've always found it a bit bizarre. We know he wants to report it, or else he wouldn't have called it in, but it doesn't

like he made a mad dash from the crime scene to the pay phone which would have been depending on which route you use roughly seven to eleven minutes, travel time eight and make a mad dash to get to that pay phone, any thoughts, at my yeah. It's that's one of the most interesting things about that attack because the cause they probably at least thirty minutes product closer to forty minutes later But it's you rounding it's around a half hour. We can say that and to go that distances, it's only a few miles and the both booth was at springs and wall me, which is you know in a more populated section of town where blue rock springs park. Is this on developed area up vallejo at the time, so if

The zodiac wanted to get away and make a clean getaway away and just keep driving, there's unlimited phone booths he could have called from, but yet he called from a phone booth LEO, which is interesting. to me, my my opinion is- and I try to put myself in the shoes of of zodiac when he's doing, that is that perhaps he would want to get rid of this car get rid of his gun stash it because I you know I wouldn't want to be driving around in a car with a gun in there. Just in case someone saw me so I was thinking. Maybe he lived close to that phone booth. and perhaps put his car in the yard, are produced in the house and walk to the phone booth. But there's you know again it's that speculation, but he certainly made it out of the latter. If he didn't live in valea and wanted to get away and then called from a different phone booth, do you think he caught

please to mimic somebody like jack the ripper or or do you think it simply because I committed these crimes and because it's stranger on stranger crimes, the police might not make the connection that it was me yeah. I think maybe combination I think number one he wanted the attention he wanted police to know what he had done. I think it was a way to rub salt into the wounds of these police officers to the site I did this sum bragging about it in and there's nothing can do about it in the phone booth was actually not far from the police station, which is in sitting, so he might even be able to see police when they finally got the call, racing out of there and then maybe got some kind of thrill from that

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These dot com were on the new app introduced. think the new three for one bundle from xfinity say: big, unlimited internet and streaming. When you add xfinity mobile, go to xfinity dot com slashed three for one call one eight hundred xfinity or visit and extend the store today limited time offer restrictions apply. do you think that he was a local to allay hope? As I found it interesting that in the phone call, he doesn't just say, blue rock springs park the rather he gives directions to find the victims. Yeah. If I had to guess it's almost like he didn't know the name of the park yeah He does direct them pretty well and if he would have said blue rock springs park, obviously they would have found it, but he gives them

specific directions? I wonder if that could be, because maybe he does lived there. He knows the area they know knows how to direct them variously easily, but it all could be that he wants him to have no doubt that he did it and he's going to direct them right to the bodies and at the time he thinks they're gonna, be dead, but you know like mozilla survive, and I think he wanted to get there seems possible, so he could revel

in what he had done and very interesting as well that given mike measures description of the shooter, you know when the shooter comes back and then shoots darlene twice and shoots mike again to more times. He is able to get a description of what this guy looks like and if you know given what took place in the second attack, we have to believe that the first attack with no survivors likely went down very similar, so based offer that we can assume that in the description might gives us zodiac start using any type of the skies. At this point, and yet the next attack at lake bury s is gonna, be significantly different. where the guy is disguised from head to toe. Is this guy? Is he evolving? Why is he changing? Well, that would on my part, that would be speculation, but I think that the most

likely reason is he realized after blue rock springs, he left eye, witness I witness to the the crime and then the next attack at at lake berryessa he's attacking during daylight hours, so he's all let the witness he knows that and now he's doing a factor in the daytime. So I think maybe twenty two keep himself from being identified if something goes wrong or witness goes by he's got that hood, and in another reason, could be just to scare. The shit out of the people is attacking because a guy walking up to you with that kind of executions, hood on and a gun in his hand, saying everything's, we will k. I even if it was me in that situation. I wouldn't I wouldn't believe him, but he tried to calm them down when he attacked there and that he was wearing yeah. I almost feel like it had the mask had two purposes like you said: want it it's going to

scare them more and it seems like he's, loves to see people's reactions, but also if, if they do survive the cat and then if I am now thicket, it deftly sirs, multi purposes and- and I think he's very theatrical. We know that from a lot of loose, and I think he probably enjoyed making that hood had the zodiac crosshair logo. On the on the chair and he never mention two brine heart known as a solar shepherd at labour, has said that he was the zodiac. It never came up. and it maybe that's cuz. If something went wrong, he didn't want anyone to know that he was the zodiac by that point and connected to another crime, but it was, you know, or terminate after he rode on the side of their card or that sort of changed everything. The new zodiac do you have any

thoughts on what the mask was made out of her the account varied from from brine. He said it was made with care. It wasn't just like some plastic bag that someone spray painted a white circle and he said the cross, your logo was stitched very nice, Lee and professionally and most on the front, and the hood was was made with carers straight over his entire shoulders and The face- and there were a clip on sunglasses that were attached to the to the mask itself, so he he pointed out that it was definitely made with care. It was made with some kind of professional quality. It wasn't just some some bag that was had white paint on it or something like that. That's very interesting because often times with these serial killer

We will find that someone killing in the nature of someone like the zodiac, where they're going out and they're killing people end up a park near the lake or or at lake herman road or the blue rock springs park there we are in their finding their victim and their killing them out on the streets are out in public. In these you know, secluded areas, usually that suggest that they cannot kill at home. They cannot abdicate people and bring them home that they don't have privacy, that they don't have their own place. But then everything else the desire to act does implies that he does have a certain level of privacy. The me

king the mask in disguise with care that something that took time. The putting together the ciphers and the letters that he would later send that takes time and in it takes barely with the ciphers and the the letters I've seen it suggested that it he probably had what he considered to be some type of work. That may be. Maybe if he did live with other people, you had to keep under lock and key or guarded very tightly. But it's it's weird the contrast between the two natures of the beast. If you will I've often thought about that, but I I also wonder if it's a simply location a lot of those housing developments in California, where they, these little crackerjack size houses, They had really small yard, so it could be possible. He's going. Why have privacy with inside my house? But I don't have proof,

the sea on the outside cause. The houses are so close together, tat s interesting point in in one of his letters. He did mention a storing something in his basement. Police seized on that and Maybe that's a clue, because most houses in the bay area did not have basements That thought maybe helpful a little workshop down there, someplace, where he could get away from anyone else in the house and tinker around down there, but then again, Zurich? It wasn't always honest in his letter, so it could have been an attempt at misdirection. Maybe he didn't have a basement, but that was something police were interested in and I think it it also goes into what kind of killer he was. Whereas you know someone like a golden state killer wants to spend time with his victim stay there terrorize them stretch it out as long as possible get

alone. The zodiac never had an interest in that kind of activity. He wanted to attack quickly and get out I think. Perhaps he never had an intention of bringing them back to his house or something like that. I think he was more of a of a thrill killer that got a thrill out of attack itself and then later on reliving it. I think that gave him some satisfaction yeah that that's very interesting, because, yes, I think he was a thrill killer, but I also think he executed the first murder so easily that by may be contacting the please it was another rush because was another point in the crime where he could get caught in Hee hee about all about cat and mouse activity with police in getting them to engage with him and

there's some evidence that he was inspired by comic books and movies like the most dangerous game, and I think he thought himself as this villain were made himself into this. This villain called zodiac and I think part of the fun for him part of the three. from him was a interaction with please I'm in his murderers, farmers. Anyhow, they range in December, sixty eight until october, sixty nine, but then he's got a letter writing campaign that stretches until one thousand nine hundred and seventy four. So he at some point it seemed like the thrill of the interaction with the police in the was. Was his letter writing and not so much the mercy? It seemed like he got some kind of pleasure out of out of that part of it

this. Some of these comic books. You think the zodiac was reading the others there's one called in its at him: hold comic book, An end to give you a bit of a back story: he send a halloween card to reporter Paul Avery and in that card by fire by rope. Trying to remember off the top of my head but it was laid out in a specific image and there's a comic book by TIM. Hold its a deal comics. One of the I don't remember the title of it, but it's if, if you go what you'll find it and there's a wheel on it and death by fire death by knife death by gun death by it's the same things mentioned in the the card to avery. So from that it's almost definite, that's where he had

we've got that from when you base that, when you based on some of the other clues, he mentioned the short story, the most dangerous scheme. He makes references to theatrical stuff like the machado, so it seems like he was in his own fantasy world and this this person that he created this persona. I really think he he wanted to be some kind of arch villain or be known as as one yeah. I just looked up the tim holt comic, so it looks like it's. It's actually titled TIM halt. I think he supposed to be may be the hero

and its issue number thirty. According to what I found but its you're right. It's the you, have a man there and I guess his name is red, mask he tied up and there's a wheel of chance behind him and its, as you said, death by gun, death by knife, death by rope and yeah is very, very theatrical, very zodiac alike, and it appears that this comic may have some value. Does it has some linkage to the zodiac name, one, and also around that time period? There was a lot of comics that were beyond these detective That's where we eventually get batman from. I wonder if there's other comics that he was in full. By that people just haven't, got the references yet yeah. That could definitely be the case and on the very least we can tell that he's into fantasy stuff.

in between the theatre and the the comic books he's got perhaps he's living in a a fantasy world. You know when When I look at it as when most of these victims are young couples, attack the rout enjoying each other's company making out in one of her does couples do he's home, reading, comic books and- and this is is world, so he goes out and strikes against those people that are doing the thing that he wishes. He could do you,

it's very in the captain. I were talking about this earlier. It's very comic book, theatrical like with the zodiac he's given himself. This name, the zodiac he's given himself a logo, the crosshairs, and then he supplying all these threats to via these newspapers and such and then the costume at lake barry s. It's almost mean, that's that's. What is superhero supervillain is then the name the logo- the costume now with you would mention the confirmed five and there's a lot of suspicion that there are other attacks that we can get into that later, but lay down for us these are the confirmed five murders of the zodiac killer and bye, and then there's some blatant prince along the way, there's some palm palmprint

some some of the letters, but police really haven't said publicly if any of those prince from various seeing for various letters, matches they're. So we know that there are linked by handwriting bye the ammo you know and in lake herman road once he claims responsive early for that, along with the July fourth attack, you know, he'd, we have a handwritten letter he's detailing Both crimes he's accurately describing both crime scenes those two are linked together. Then, when you get to berryessa, he's save zodiac, but he's wearing zodiac zodiac, cross symbol on his outfit and as he flees the scene. Take the time to write a taunting message on Brian hart door. and it has the zodiac symbol and the writing matches the writing in the letters

and then we move forward the murder, Paul Palestine, which is the most unlike the first set of crimes. Here we have another letter to the hand, again matches the previous ones. This time he actually sent a piece of a bloody shirt to the press along with the letter, so you know he's confirming that. Yes, I killed him. Here is a piece of his bloody sure, I verified. It was so you have all of these different letters The ammo calling and in writing to the press linking everything here not like, we have

dna like we would have today or clear cut fingerprints, but all of the stuff combine tells them that the same person was or all of these different scenes and is responsible for all these crimes. Do you have a ballpark number of crimes that you think the zodiac is responsible for, or do you think these five are the only signature crimes from the zodiac? Well, there's crimes that he definitely hinted at that he was involved in and I think he had a habit of trying to catch attention for other cases to prop himself up and make it look like he was even more of a if villain actually was, I try not to wander too far out of the the the five murder victims we know of, but he, I do look at some earlier crimes in there area and then in southern for me, a specially their similar crimes? That could definitely be him but

so many bad guys running around in california. The time there's so much crime that it's hard to to go off, because then you start looking at His crime looks like zodiac, and this one had some aspects, and so I try to stick with the ones that have the closest ammo to to what we know. Zodiac did what are your thoughts on zodiac, mentioning deer lodge montana to the victims at lake berryessa. I think that's a really important clue, but I need to point out is: is that deer lodge is not necessarily with what he said, and others who were shaken up. He was scared. He was badly wounded, so he when he was tone, police were by word the conversation. He said it was something with it Two word name in montana like and he's trying to come up with ideas and someone

the deer lodge montana and he said yeah that might be it, but there's there's been reports that been affirmed large. It could have been a red lodge something with two words and in the name of the town, so what lol Those people settled on a being deer lodge it's not one hundred percent proof that he did say your lodge, but you know there were no escaped prisoners as the story that he gave them at the time from their logic at that time. So I think it's it could have been just hey. I'm going to tell these people story, something I read three years ago about some kind of escape and I'll tell him. You know just

them down and get them to cooperate and in what he told them worked and they cooperated. Yes, some suspect the zodiac was a bit of a master of misdirection and therefore deer lodge Montana were saying. Just the state of Montana in general would be another example that he might be trying to mister act. People should somebody survive, because what zodiac has learned about himself by the time of the lake bury s attack. Is that he's not perfect that he did leave a survivor, a surviving victim in his second confirmed attack with MIKE michaud surviving that attack an tit less sake that a step further, because there some thought to that with the brown car, because Vallejo police said they actively said this in the newspapers at the time they gave a brief description of a young.

white man and a brown vehicle that they were looking for at the time and he later zodiac later in a letter confirms this brown car. Saying all well. Yes, somebody saw me in this pay phone when the when I hung up the the phone the The phone rang- and this drew his attention to me and that's when this witness saw me in the payphone and saw my brown car and I love. The idea of. Maybe, as you pointed out, is dark. Mike Michaud has just been shot several times he's traumatized. Maybe he doesn't know the color of the vehicle couldn't see it and maybe sodium loves us

goes off there? Looking for a white guy in his late twenties in a brown car, while I'll confirm for them that I have a brown car when in fact I do not yeah what would perfect way to divert the police and get them looking totally blind alley, and he- and why would you describe the witness that saw all he says that there was a black man that was shabbily dry saw him in the phone booth. identified. Anyone that reported seeing someone in that phone booth, but it sounds I like that, could easily be I'm going to make this fake witness up so they're spinning their wheels. Looking for this witness I don't know why any anyone that had just killed he killed. Two people would volunteer that information willingly. Given the both of the first attacks took place on a friday night.

in or round vallejo again only separated by about two miles of distance, or so I always thought that that in a sense, was a bit of misdirection as well, that he thought that he may have found the perfect place to kill. It worked out the fur time. Let's killed there again now. People think that I'm local to Vallejo and that's why I always felt like he purposely made the call from a valet who pay phone yet didn't know the name of the park where, where he shot the two kids, it seemed to me. This is the early stages of with this misdirection there it. It definitely could be that, and I I sort of go the other direction. I sort of go with you. A lot of killers start out close to.

In the expanded expand from there. You know you've got someone mentioning these two areas, I'm going to attack they're so close together, like like you're, saying and then call for the phone booth in the same town, what better way to get people looking in Vallejo? What one thing that's interesting is about all the the letters zodiac mailed were postmarked on weekdays from san Francisco and and most of his attacks. Exceptional palestine were on weekends outside of san francisco, so it does. He live, in san francisco and he once on the weekends and blair or that the worst is here. In Vallejo and he's working insane. francisco during the week. I think one of the two is is the most likely scenario. If you guys had the bat, would you bet that

Zodiac is single and living alone, or do you think zodiac is I've I wrestle with that, especially in the If the golden state killer case, I you know, I never thought the golden state killer was going to be a cop. I never thought he would have a wife and kids, so that sort of has made me go back and forth on the fence with zodiac. I would I tend think that he's alone or that to be out with a girl a in a lover's lane parked in a car but he's not he's the one stalking those couples and attacking them. So I tend to think that he He was one of those loner types that didn't have successful relationships, but again after seeing what happened with the golden state killer case, nothing would

We could have had a big family in a nice job and everything else. Why? Thank you. I think it might is right, and I think that we can see some of that in his crimes. Its of wheat. We definitely see overkill in the women and that's why we have more female victims, murder, victims and we have to situations where he attacks a couple in and twice a male some survive, so the female is definitely the receiving the brunt of his anger in those attacks and as MIKE is pointing out he he's, he's attacking and killing. Essentially what he envies young love parked in a car somewhere is what he would have liked to in doing when he was a teenager or in his early twenties, he wasn't

bore, wasn't successful in that realm, and so he this is. This is his lesson to you, general public. This what you get when you park out in the middle of nowhere in the dark at night in these lovers lanes. This is this is what you get. This is the lesson to be learned, don't be out there at night they're achieving something he wished. Who achieve but did not, and then, when you take it to how is living, who may living with. I think that he probably had some brief relationships with women and they

They failed and didn't work out and that only added to his anger toward the female gender and I think that a lot of his actions at least once we get past the double homicide or I'm sorry. The second attack at blue rock springs. So this would be now where we're at July. Fourth, one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine. I think after this point, he he has a. Level of privacy. He has a certain ability to spend a lot of time working on these letters, the ciphers, the costume that he built for lake berryessa. So he has time now. That may mean maybe he lived with his mom alone and it had the run of the house for most of the time but yeah. I think that's what's interesting about the makeup of

of this guy. I think he had some level privacy and maybe that's because he was unsuccessful with with women or traditional type relationships. and since you bring that up my question, do you put a zodiac younger or older than thirty. I can say with all confidence, he's older than thirty. I'm just saying, because it seems to me like somebody that you know any and of mine or or people I've talked to that you look back on high school and that it the best time in their life normally, by the time they're thirty there there over that and they could really care less they don't. hold a lot of resentment towards that. That's always wondered is zodiac in like mid. 20s or late twenties, and he's still angry about his unsuccessful attempts with women. Well, you have to be an extremely angry individual to do any

of the things that he's doing so he's he's not normal, like the normal people that you just discussed, he he's not going to get over any of this and that's obvious from his crimes. So with with the in regards to is aged one. We have several crimes where he's described as being in his one is late twenties, maybe twenty five to thirty five. This is from surviving victims and from the phone calls he made where the dispatchers saying he sounded to be of this age. Twenty five to thirty five mike you too, you take it from there. I know that the napa dispatcher, the police officer, took the call, for him after lake berryessa described them as students voice someone in there, and there are only twenty is brine heart now described, so

thing along those lines to not a real, deep, mature voice, but more of a younger person, but again love all kinds of voices and any you can always put a voice with it when you see it. So we can always go by that, but then you've got the eyewitnesses is utah, the ban, in the possibility that officer folk song, zodiac after Paul stine murder. There He thinks he's a little bit older and it's it's interesting in. Scotch. It came out of zodiac after killing palestine in the original estimate and the original sketch was estimating the age to be twenty five, the thirty five and when you when they amended it, it moved it up from thirty five, the forty five, so I look at the twenty five to forty five window in and it's a big spread. But I

I sort of feel that sometimes some of the things he does is his very juvenile. Am I looked towards the younger person and in other times some of the thing? that he's interested in sea like they might be more of a mature person. mikado opera. You in What is a tray compared? I don't think there's any kids out there today listening to opera and if the same thing's, true back in nineteen, sixty nine. I would. I would think that it'd, be more mature person size for a russell myself with with whether he's younger or older yeah. He definitely did some things that come across to me as very immature. I've said it before I'll say it again. I don't trust anybody that doesn't use their real name was it

captain brought up a good point to he. He said that it's almost a zodiacs heart wasn't in the actual killing he he'd leave before people actually dead staying there ensuring they were dead or shooting them in the head. It's almost like squeamish about that part, and I think that goes back to he is playing. On these prisons. Villain out through the villain has to have victims, so he's gotta do party, even though he may not be committed to it. But after he realizes hey. I built this person up. I built this reputation of people Oh, I mean business on a killer kill anyone anymore. Now I can just send letters and I'm going to get the attention I've been craving I didn't get my in my everyday life by writing letters well, there's a good chance. He almost got caught in the paul stine attack the taxicab,

Yet we see a lot of times with serial killers that they take souvenirs from their victims or, like you said, in the go to seek killer case, he's harassing victims zodiac his rousing police officers is, he didn't seem to take souvenirs. It's almost like his victims, dead matter, so much to him at what wasn't. Personal towards the victim. There's no real evidence of him taking any kind of souvenirs taking belongs of the victims. Will see any of that, whereas the golden, if the killer would do that kind of stuff. So definitely two kinds of killers and it seems like you know, someone like deangelo has a a connection, permanent connection to the victim, whereas zodiac maybe be we're just in the wrong place at the wrong time and he needed to

kill someone to get credit for so much more to get to tomorrow. Please join us back here in the garage and if you need more of the captain of the colonel in your ear balls check out, our bonus show called off the record it's on sticker premium. Thank you too. You captain thank you to my.

For joining us in the garage. You all better, join us back here in the garage tomorrow. Until then be good, be kind and don't let the coming in at five foot. Three inches. It's number one mom.

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