In new orleans twenty twelve burst catch. Here I drove to an address some one had given him that didn't exist ass. He stood in the park, what were the address should have been, he was shot and killed. I'm dvd umbra join me for the newest season of counter clock, as I dive into the motive behind bruces murder. a series of events that have never been fully investigated until now binge all fourteen epoch, loads of counter clock season. Five, wherever you listen to podcasts this spring transform your outdoor space. Into a regular gathering place for you and your loved ones. With help from actually whether you're into wicker, teak or driftwood inspired furniture. We ve got the look you're going for adam accessories, like string lights and beverage tub to take your patio party from basic to curated and enjoy cosy evening vibes with a new fire bid, visit, ashley dot com or stop by your local store and find affordable pricing and expert support. Today, shop and safe

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this one is for you. Next up, we have can't in atlanta georgia, or we can't request the shout out from the cap is so please, sir, do you think kent's guilty? We have valerie and harrison burg virginia and next summer Of Daniela in silver bell, washington, silver dale silver dish, sneered, naturally, the body in chino to drink the beer and last but not least, kept in a big shout out, and thank you to melissa in three bridges: new jersey. So thanks to everybody for filling up the fridge for sweet show, if you want to help us out with next week's beer run, go to true I'm garage doc, tab click on that donate, readable the war, you win beer run for canada interest in how we got this week case suggestion we went to goes the black belt of comedians, Michael LE note

and he is known worldwide- is the greatest kicking stand up comedian of all time, and while we were there, we got the chance to speak with them and captain this not a suggested case, meaning threatened us with erasmus when the kick lands belt and the kicking in the comedy the kicking style. He also has a podcast called guys night out so check that out. You can see him on tour, he's opening up for the elder himself, the kuta want a firearm crystal clear am, I was not the only one to suggest this case is a pretty popular case We ve got a lotta suggestions for because been covered on the confession: tapes on Netflix yeah: this is the case confusing and theirs alone. If that aren't clear, a lot of things to sift through it's going to leave you maybe a little angry, but hopefully we can get to the bottom of

and that's why you want to gather round because we're going to break it down for you, so we can break it down. Grab a chair grab a beer. Let's talk, some true crime

July thirteen nineteen? Ninety four, just after two am the Bellevue washington police department or called to a crime scene, teenagers, sebastian burns and achieve repay return to achieve families family's

which is located in a quiet upper middle class area of bellevue when they arrive, they stumbled onto a horrific scene. A team. Parents and sister had been brutally attacked Sebastian burns called nine. What one asking for an ambulance, the

The my only a year by one guy as you may waited for help to arise the chiefs older sister, smoke was clinging to life moaning.

Edward detective. Bob Thompson was one of the officers that responded to the scene of the attacks, according to him it appeared a tv mother, was the first to be killed, achieves. Other was the next to be murdered. Detective thompson, It was overkill and it looks someone has hit the man forty or fifty times Sister died at the hospital just a few hours after the attack, unable to tell the detectives who had attacked this Is the true east merge? The clip was played there, the name on one call that is,

Eighteen year old sebastian burns calling to report that when he had returned with his friend it's heath back to their home back to the teeth home. Did they found heaves, mother and father very badly b, to the point that they believe them to be dead. They found achieves sister very had beaten been near death and they're, calling in their asking for police they're asking for ambulance they're asking for help. They are afraid that who, Where did this? Whoever perpetrated this attack mace I'll be in the home and they decide to go in way outside until the police arrive. Now I've read some ports. Here that stated, the police did have a little trouble finding the location of the crime scene, finding the home that they were calling about. and, as we stated Sebastian in, a tea would have been outside waiting for the police and they had a down the police to

them, where, in fact, the house was a little background here. Captain The were Faye family. The repay family was the family that was attacked, so the a family of four had just moved to Bellevue washington from vancouver canada. The father to wreak rafale as a very talented structural engineer who had worked on buildings all over the world, the mother sultana, she a doctorate in nutrition and but devoted her life to raising her children? This is basra and a teeth, somewhere. To me I mean how my doctorate, but I I continued to work on the park ass. I have many after from many of the highest, the highest of points like MT everest from some, the best universities on both the east and west coast. But enough about me right

sebastian and teeth. They had been best friends since high school. Both of them were very, I guess you know I've I've seen interviews with these guys ed stuff. With these guys, I can honestly say they are very smart young men, probably more intelligent than me, even though I hold all those doctorates from many very distinguished universities, now. Sebastian was raised in a loving family with english routes and grew up playing classical cello. Became a member of the royal kick canadian air cadets and was given an award by prince edward leg. We said both these keyser intellectuals but the other problem with these two guys, as they actually believed They are smarter than probably what they are and smarter than every by they assume a lot of times at their smarten there. The smartest guide them room, yeah, dad just kind of.

Canada's bleeds through them done that when you, when you are what you see them speaking and everybody knows that kind of guy in high school where where you know he's smart, all your friends know he's smart, but it's the fact that he puts himself on a pedestal that you're decide care. Clearly that there's is an arrogance about both of these young stinks achieve attended. Coronel university, so he is in his summer year of college right, corner hauser, ivy league school, but as the only ivy league school, that accepted him. So was wasn't light. He had a bunch options. So, let's less as ivy league schools go. Let's clean up this boy. Ground information here, a little bit before we move into the crime in the crime scene, so there were Faye family afore had just move to Bellevue Washington, from Vancouver canada during this time, people were living in the repay home

he is away at college and his friends about she's still lives up in canada now dirt this night on this night when they find a tv parents murdered and his sister attacked, a team had been stay he had been visiting his family from college for a few nights and his best friend, high school sebastian came down to visit him while was staying in bellevue, washington, washington obviously much closer to vancouver than Coronel university, so the two friends at teeth and bad. Had been out for a night out on the town when they return to tee. Home and they discovered that this attack had occurred. So, let's take a look at went down in the crime scene is there any evidence to tell us who the perpetrator or perpetrators are? What are the investigator suspense and in what are they finding at the crime scene, and we can do that as we go through this sort of timeline

we're starting with the two, a m marker on July, thirteen nineteen. Ninety four. So as we said sebastian bashing, teeth, discover the bodies of If the parents- and they call nine when one this is roughly at two a m- and we know this- because the nine one one call comes in at two- a one- a m now- a chief's sister bosma. She then shortly later dies in the hospital from injuries inflicted from that attack from the time. The boys found the bodies until eight thirty a m that morning sebastian anna teeth or up all night with police, mostly at the bellevue police department. During this time they are each interviewed separately twice when asked where,

They had been that evening. The boys provided a full account stating that at eight thirty p m, they drove to a place called the keg restaurant for a bite to eat. They had a salad and they each had a glass of wine. Then they went to. HU, a nine fifty p m showing of the moon, the lion king after the movie they stopped for They stopped off at a club. And they left the waitress a tip sixty. Tip on a nine dollar tab. I've actually I've seen this. These numbers reported slightly different on this. What their tab was and what their tipp was. The general thought is that they left but what would be considered to be a high noticeably high tip for whatever they purchased at that club? sebastian anna teeth provided police with their clothing that they wore that evening. They were both eggs

and by an alternative light source for evidence of blood spatter and examined for gunshot residue both test. Come up negative correct. The first thing that troubled police was how could submit in in a tif provide so much detail about where they had been that evening, but not recall key moments at the murder scene. Well, I mean, I think one of the explanations would be. You know you go fighter you know eight and they flew yes, yes, they flew, and I think then it's the idea, What can you remember because you're in shock I mean, is the leg, the name one one call and we can break that down later, but some people see some way. That's trying a liar put on a show, and some people see some may that is incomplete shock and has no clue what to do.

here's my thoughts on their. I personally. I think this is a weird thing for the police to say that this drew some suspicion for them and how could they provide so much deed about what they had been doing that evening, but not recall key moments at the murdering and an eye to be a little more clear by about what they mean by that. But let's get into that here because, first of all, we see that their at a restaurant at eight thirty p m there, not words according to their story, they do not return home till two, a m okay. So that's fine half hours, yeah yeah can provide a lot of detail of something you were doing for five and a half hours when they return to the crime scene. When they found a tv parents, it would have been a matter of minutes by the time they would called nine one one and went to that fight or flight? in flew out of the home in and remained out by the curb to wait for police to arrive. You're talking about a comparison of five and a half to a matter of minutes of motion.

we get more detail from something that you spent that amount of time on yes, so the story is that they got home roughly about two o clock and then, when they entered the hall, they're, probably only in the home, for about three minutes until the nine one one call was placed right, so I Finally, for me, I don't see anything weird about not knowing that this is. Where does get a little weird, though, when they are taking when they are going through crime scene in their going through the home they're asking a teeth and Sebastian if, if they had touched any of the victims and a chief can't remitted like- most time he saying I might have touched my mom, I'm I dont think I did no. I don't think I did that's, basically how he answers when east he's gone about his mother and his father. I may have, but I dont think I did know. I probably did not

stand that we have a situation where he's probably very much in shock have a hard time, believing that he wouldn't be aware if he touched his if he touched any of the victims, and why would this the key thing for the police. Well, and this is why I think he could be vague about it if he is trying to hide something. You would rather be vague about whether you touched one of the victims than to give a definitive answer because They are going to be able to do test on you, like we said at testing. For blood spatter rest four gunshot residue they're going to do tests on you that, determine whether you were being honest about having touch the victims or not. Sometimes the honest answer is, I dont know now detective. also point out that the killer or killers me have known the victims,

Firstly, we come across this with every case that we cover that's, always a possibility. Usually it's a likelihood they could find. Oh signs of forced entry and that going to be something that could be key here because remember on the nine, when one call, the first thing the Sebastian says is: there appears to be some sort of break in. therein. The police are unable to find any signs of forced entry. So what does that mean? Well couldn't? Could the killer or killers have gained access to the home without breaking in possum, possible people, leave their doors, unlock people figure out ways to get into homes. Could the killers or killer I have known the victims and were let into the hope, that's a possibility as well gained access to the home through one of the victims themselves. Right or they got lucky in theirs door was unlocked or did they

killers where they already inside the home when they attack went down and they didn't need to gain entry into the home. So those are your options there. If you cannot find a sign of of obvious break in this, the thought that the perpetrators may have known the victims also comes up in this fact of the crime scene. So detective thompson would say that the mother at his mother was attacked. First, she was downstairs. And then we have the father who was upstairs, presumably sleeping that he was attacked. Second, in how dead, when how are these individuals attack it? It had appeared that it would have been with with the chiefs mother anyway, that it would have been a like a blitz attack that she probably was surprised and struck with the heavy. Et right, so a hammer or a baseball bat, or something like that. You're bored anything like that that,

same weapon was used again on a chiefs father upstairs in the bedroom, as he lie, sleeping that would be a sneak attack pretty much that he was unaware that he was being attacked. Probably did not hear his wife having been attacked just before him, so the father, though, was was brutalized. I mean he was hit on the thompson said forty or fifty times. Let's go back to the mom real, quick, okay cause she was hit, she was dead. Her face was covered. Somebody covered her face probably afterwards and she was facing east, which this is a muslim family, said that'd, be the direction in which they pray. So then, let's go to the father, so she was kind of killed but almost shown some kind of respect after the murder. I guess

If that makes any sense, then the father is just bludgeon not only bludgeoned, he was he was destroyed. The killer didn't want to just to to kill a teeth's father. That person wanted to destroy him. Like I said detective thompson saying it looked like he had been hit. Forty or fifty times and whatever object was used to kill the man had sprayed matter either blood everyone yeah? Not yet not just blood? We get we blood, we got teeth. We gap pieces bone, skin flesh, there's, there's matter all over spread all over that room from wherever he was hit and then pulled back up again. Again in every time. You do that. Bringing a little bit with it when you pull it back It sprang it on the walls and the ceiling of this bedroom. Then we have the sister, the older, achieves older sister basra, who is attacked

Last and we haven't brought it up yet, but his sister is she's autistic down an eye don't know the. I don't know the severity of her autism and I bring that up because of a statement that the police made. I want to be very clear. This is the police they maranon migrant, their different spectrums yeah. So the police, a statement, would be that at this point again that the killer knew the family that new the family well to the point that they would have attacked the parents first and killed the parents first, attacking the cistern last. Knowing that she would be unable to call nine one one right, that's what the police state now to the nine one one call captain remember we had stated sebastian: There was some type of break in, and I want to talk about what the detective say that they are see. At the home, not only no sign of forced entry, but also

just looking at the room and rooms of the home, there, stating that it appears to the detectives Boxes were ok, so the home they had recently moved there right you have a lot of boxes that have not been unpacked in put away these I have not been put away yet by so whoever broke into this home quote unquote broke into this home, they didn't here, too, have sifted through items that were still in the boxes. The detective said that it looked like they just tipped over boxes, Did they didn't really go through anything? The drawers were open, but nobody, it just look like principle open up the or maybe looked inside, didn't didn't rummage around and pull any thing out. Yes, so go ahead right, a teeth. Is one, that's gonna say while my walkman missing. I think, though viziers missing yes, so this

It also individual. Yes, he is the son of the the parents that were murdered, but he hasn't lived. this property for a long time? he's been away at school. So, like you said, first of all the houses and put together in a fully from the move and then you have an individual. That's only been, therefore, a couple days so now you're trying to say, hey, what's missing that's a lot easier do when the house is put together, but when the houses and put together at all, looks like stuffs missing yeah, I ate here's. The thing, though I kind of I'm gonna, go with the end, if, if it for anybody out there, that is familiar with this case can see what road we're going down here. It's starting to look like the police have suspicions regarding a teeth in Sebastian, right. Ok and that's why we're going through these crime scene items one at a time now I have to

I go with the the police's, if they're being honest, if there unbiased. In their opinion, I have to go with their belief they say you know it looks like people kind of staged this break and I've, because then they would have in robberies and burglaries, Times you know you, you you're a detective. You been on the force for quite some time by the I'm your detective and you ve seen break ins. You ve seen this kind of thing go down and when it doesn't look right when it doesn't pass the smell test it. It looks like a set up to these guys. It looks like a staged burglary, while I guess others a couple problems. First problem is that just moved into the property and the stuff is not put away so yeah, you might have seen a bunch of break ins and burglaries before, but how many times have you seen one where some I just moving in my other issue with the police going down this road

idea that you don't know what this person that make mighta you know they might have broken to kill you, but there was reason why they was rummaging through your stuff and that reason could be a stack of pay. Is there something that you would have let there be no clear evidence that this item is now missing? You bring up a very good point, their captain, so we have achieved stating that his walk men was was taken, a vcr was taken from the home, which seems crazy to have three. People murdered just to take a vcr and walkman, but you bring up a very good point. We have three of the four family members are dead. These people had just move there, you're right there are, They could have had the if, if a teeth can't say, ok this item is missing that items missing the stack of papers is missing. We had some

already. There was missing if he doesn't report, something as not being still at the home the detectives are gonna have no clue the other. Additional items are actually missing from the hall where I like you said I mean you, know his father engineer, and he was working on some pretty interesting stuff, so we'll get back to that after the break. But you know again with the mother: he's not going to know of a piece of jewelry is missing her. Then let them I tell you. I've lived with my father my teenage years. I lived with my mother before that and I couldn't have told you somebody broke in our home and stole half my mom's jury, I would be able to tell you what any of it was. You know my father had guns in the home when we grew up and my machine guns and all kinds of and skin and hand cannons. I n, you know what he fancies. of a bit of a collector. I wouldn't to tell you if the guy's got two guns or if he has ten, you know what I mean

I just don't know it's not my personal prolonging, so he would have no clue. bring up a very good point. There oh get ready, to my amazing points in the point on your head run after this quick beer break. Let's take second and talk about two of the grossest words in the english language. Dog food, Dog food is literally how we describe food so grows are tongues one. It touch it with a ten foot pole, economic sense, Kip. It's so over process so cook to a crisp than an act. they stopped looking like food at all and it does it nourish. Are dogs like real food either? That's why there's fresh pet for your dogs fresh bet, isn't dog food, its food food? It's real meat,

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find anything that jumps off the page to you immediately regarding the nine, when one call, No, and I wish reddit had a clearer version. I hate when we have a kind of crappy audio, but I think you can decipher it enough again. I think this is a weird situation: yo either you think Sebastian is lying or you just think he is sad. disturbed or he's out of his mind, so Sebastian's, the one making the call a tif, presumably is in the home with him when this call is going down- and we hear mediately, so bad It sounds to be confused or stuttering, an estate of panic or shock. That's what I hear. That's my you know, that's my job all thought on his behavior now I have seen several in our views with with Sebastian. I've also seen a videotape footage of him speaking several too

he does on occasion have a little bit of a stutter. A little bit of a stammer is so that's not does it doesn't seem to be. My thing is captain I was trying to figure out. Was this put on? Was he put this on this this act? So I have. Give him the benefit of the doubt there, and I don't feel like it's a total put on now. One thing that I did find weird is several times he starts to say something and then kindest stops in re kind of re gears himself. You know where he'll started say and the two which it sounded like he was about to say the two adults, or rather to parents, and then he says, might my friends, parents both of them he struggles to find the right words and then he says we think they're dead. He just it. We think they're dead, very fast, like that which

I don't know- maybe I'm maybe I'm putting this under the microscope too much here, because I dont know it's hard to say how anybody would react in this situation, but I do feel like, but we where the stutter and where the stammer might not be a put on. I question is he choosing his words, and why would you take the time to choose your words, especially when you end the call saying very fast fast and by he might be actually choose in his words. It might just be he's and the moment of speaking, but because he's in such shock he is trying to edit himself and his brain causes. Brain is not functioning cry we and I you know the interview with him, as he said out of my mind when I was making that call. So

possibly you know he might not even remember the call. The the fact of the matter is. You've got two boys that walk into a situation. This is their accounts. They see the dead mother they go up now. Now you have to check on the father, he is brutally murdered. Unrecognizable he would be unrecognizable, maybe even as a you might not even recognize him as a person at that point. Right. and then you and and yeah, and that rooms completely covered in blood, and then you gotta check on your sister. But before you get to the point where you're checking on your sister, you can hear her and you know so.

One would assume that you would run to her aid to help her, but are also you might again it's the fighter flight mentality, and if your body tells you to to fly out of their there's nothing, you can do Yeah, so let's be clear about that, his tif sister was still alive during the the call of the nine one one she didn't die until they got her back to the hospital right and but how much the is the boys, and I can call them. Boys are eighteen year old, young man at this point, but the very sheltered this is. This is up middle class and online are offered were often reports refer to as the boys as well. So I think that's why that seeped into my psyche here, but so

sebastian in a tea while hold on. I was saying that there are many class at think that important here. Yet, as these are eighty year old, kids that were sheltered, very sheltered and audits argue to say that their just upper class kids yeah yeah. I found I found that we're weird when they describe them as upper middle class and then saw the neighborhood in the homes in the neighborhood, and I thought well, if that's upper, I always thought I was middle class. They said their upper middle middle class that, while I paused dirt We are appalled cast in the garage yeah. You know what homes were very nice and that's a very nice neighborhood. So to me that looks like an upper class of louis let's get a ride in the teeth, dad was an engineer saw mean he has his doctor. I mean he's doing well for himself, but they did not help his sister. They did not help his dying sister right, but it wasn't again. That's

yeah sought- and sometimes you can say that makes it seem so bad. I didn't help the dine sister. She she was in a state that Neither one of us could have done anything without the date they had no medical training, so wasn. they could really do anything to help her. Do you think they even open the door to her room. May I I think they did that's one thing. I question because I couldn't find I could find parts of their interview where they wear a tea was being asked. If he had touched the body of his mother or his father. I couldn't find any parts of the actual interview where he was being asked questions directly about his sister now I think he said he knew there not that I could do to help her right. That's it! That's the only good mind you know what his day was, I don't know how to put it

I don't even know how to put a band aid or something like that, which I think was kind of a dumb statement, but this was also in a situation where it's like. If I came into the garage and some a bludgeon you and you're hanging onto dear life, I cant do nothin. So I have two options: ah sit there in the room, I could call and sit in the room with you You know I lose my appetite or I call the police and a step in the other room and yell pray to god, the ambulance gets their quick enough to save, because I don't have the means in order to save you the night. I just wanted to hear from his from his mouth that they had in fact opened the door and in some form, check on her now. Here's the other thing he I don't know if I definitively ever saw him or heard him say that I also wanted to hear him say definitively the he touched, the body of his sister, because you

here's why? What I'm getting at for him to to lay out the assessment that I could there was nothing I could do. There's nothing could do to help her earth Xaver. I want there too, Some kind of investigate, and by him to arrive to that conclusion bright. But there is also the statement by us abash in that. We think that somebody is in the house or possibly isn't there, so based on their story, these two guys go and they find the man they find the dead. Then there's the sister that here the sister or maybe they see, the system were not really clear on that. But for whatever reason, when they go outside to make the nine. When one call they don't, the scene right. They say were here, we're gonna flag, you down and we're staying outside, because we think that maybe this killer

still there and then please want to come out and say: well, that's a law, don't you think? Why would you just hang outside. If you think the killers in the house, while look again, there might be eighteen year old, young men, but their naive, and they they could be as intellectual as they want. These guys are not street smart at all. These guys are very sheltered. So, ah, if it's me- and I walk into a house in theirs- attack and I call the police and I say: hey you get here: the police probably should tell you hey, you might want to go outside, the person might still be in the house and there might be some evidence, some noise, that they heard that there were they went out shit. Did you hear something in the basement? Somebody might be in the house, I'm finding a weapon and I'm going outside and I'm giving myself some space and I'm going to keep my eyes on that house and if somebody comes out of the house, you know it's go time. You gotta fight for your life. At that point,

three dead people inside well and you you ve, made the right call essentially because remember you know when I worked security for you, is one thing that they taught us was. If you are trying to protect someone. Ok, let's say: there's a break in kung fu, let's say: there's a break into the garage right now and let's pretend that this garage has many different brooms and pretend in the garage this episode in a couple different levels as well. would it be great if the ground actually did have several levels rely rules anyway, one day my friend for level So if somebody came in to the garage and they wanted to harm or kill you ok doubt it? But let me tell you what what my training, what what we were taught during this training was unless you have, unless you have some kind of set up where you have like a panic room which most homes would not have a panic room

and not a real legit panic room, not tonia have one or not, but what I'm saying is that if my job is to protect you from anything, I'm I'm your security. You have to listen to this. I hope mice and works out a little bit more now, but what the training taught us or as big weapons was that if my job is to protect you against anything in somebody breaks into home or to a place where you are staying in, I'm guarding you my number one object. My number one objective is to get you outside, it in less there's a legit panic room. The numbers say that, as soon as it gets you outside out of that building, rather than trying to hide you in a closet somewhere or rather then try to hide you in a room. That's far away from the break in point right. Did that your your

birth of living in surviving that break in and that attack significantly increase. If I get you outside, so you in fact did the right thing and they in fact be it that they be eve eighteen year olds, in fact, did the right thing. The thing that I keep going back to those how much information did they collect regarding the sister, but or they decided that the that's. Why there's nothing. We can do for her before we flee the home and two. We can't leave home with there's a chance that if, if she's in a certain state, you might be able to bring her with you out of the house right in that didn't happen as well and in, and I think where the police, questioning their moves. Are there saying? Well ass. You went outside, but you're you're, like you're, like twenty feet. Twenty twenty five feet you know from the whole. My boy you want them to do run, run a couple blocks away.

You want to do will actually think are they didn't because they wouldn't have been there. lay down the police. So now, I'm not saying that that I'm not questioning what they did on bringing up the police in up in investigators thoughts in suspicions on their moves throughout that even right since their opinions of what they think. This means, or that means oh, what was his demeanor and the nine one one call what withdrew demeanor when we got there all speculation, do we have any actual evidence yeah well loved buster, the luminous. This whole places a crime scene. So there he's illuminato spray down the crime scene they're looking for ever it's of blood. That's been washed away, don't ever say that a party, a company called the lumina it's time to party, but what they find here in this is very troubling. They

when they conduct this test. It showed an enormous amount of blood on the shower walls. So the killer had used the shower for leaving the killer put in the shower washed himself herself off and then left the scene? and now the police are wandering this this is a very, this is not a normal thing to go down at it at a murder scene at a triple homicide, seen re so This again is going to lead them back to the thought that the the attacker knew the family and knew the family intimately knew them to the point where they could. They would have access to the whole and they would also not be in such a hurry to leave the home that they would clean themselves up before, leaving the whole right- and I you said this is not very typical, but we have to hand the blood and the room that the father was killed and on the blood with on the splatter ever

yeah. So if the killer had left the home in the close it they arrived in, did they or during the attack- and didn't bother to wash themselves off? You would see a person covered in blood from head to toe, leaving the crime scene right and leaving evidence as they went so possibly this. This is something that could be considered like a hit. Type move killer goes and kills. It's victims cleans itself up cleaves selves up and- and we have hairs found in the shower as well- and those hairs that they're going to find they're going to find over twenty some hairs in that shower and that's going to be of sebastian burns, but he was staying at the house for three days. Prior right. So there's your reason why? If there is gonna, be any hairs in that shower? That's reasons why? Well, let's, let's talk about why the I we

it is obvious why the killer would take a shower. But let's talk about like what you said if this was a hit or if somebody had came to kill the family for some reason Natalie it has happened in other crops. Theirs. The crimes that I've read about where the killer has in fact done something that was too italy unnecessary at a crime scene where they ve, they ve killed people- and then they they decided to sit in the kitchen and drink a few beers before they left or they had. Bull of cereal or they took out. They took a shower to clean themselves up or student, but but you would have think this. If somebody was planning, if someone had planned this murder- and somebody had watched the family because the first you got a question: is your media thought? be as soon as you kill this family that you would want. flee the scene as fast as possible to evade capture right, that's, your immediate first thought, but if I

been watching this family and I had been planning to kill this family now, keep in mind b. I did my surveillance on the home and on family the week before. In my in my surveillance ended. I watched them for a course of three or four days the week before well according to my surveillance ma. belief would be. My knowledge would tell me that We three people live in that home rent and so having just killed all three of them? I may be in a huge hurry to leave the home, I might take a bunch of noise right. I might take the time to clean myself up if I brought it full bag, with a pit with a change of close in that full bag annihilated this family in the shower, through my bloody clothes in the duffel bag put on the fresh, close walked out there, all you would see is one very

handsome very clean man walking out with the duffel bag, some its opinion, but So what I'm getting at is it's not impossible. It doesn't have to be a teeth or sebastian or the two of them. Having lived there staying there. They took the shower right so that the cops are again. Unless reiterate the fact that the cop then question them for hours, they detest- there is no trace of blood. I mean one would argue that a wild they took a shower. So that's why there's no blood cause they watch, love off. There's a lot of blood, a lot of blood. I would, I would actually have to argue that someone has to take quite a in the shower to make sure they didn't have any any blood on them and so given these guys are not mastermind killers that we know of so, would they

Would they even know if they had any residue left on him? Who knows well, I think, but I think therein lies the problem. Is there Let's say a tif and sebastian or totally innocent and all they did was stumble onto a crime scene the problem here is: u fine, nothing on these guys. You would, if they were just victims, it had stumbled onto a crime scene you. I would actually believe that I would find something on them. and to me. That is why it looks very suspicious it's not so much that. Why would you find something on him, because some of those rooms were covered in in blood that the the father's bedroom was covered in in matter and bright and I'm sure whatever shoes they were wearing had evidence on them, but because they were at the crime scene have reported that, but you just walk into rooms and he don't touch anything then what are they gonna find on you? I just either than yours.

I do have a hard time, believing that they wouldn't have touched anything, and I don't necessarily mean a victim but this is these- are upper class kids, the sheltered, talking about? Who cares about sheltered or not sheltered, I'm talking about. If I walk into a room- and I see a dead body, whether I choose to go run up in the house will know what I'm so. is whether whether I choose to to investigate further in touch the body or not- I probably wouldn't what I'm saying is if I were into a room, and I found someone dead, whether be a family member, not there's a good chance. I I have to grab a wall to brace myself from falling over. I might have, go down to one me, because I'm I'm in total shock right by who says that the than they did in the blood evidence. that they didn't know hits the they didn't touched. The evidence you I mean so and another thing was a wooden if they didn't do it in the fathers bedroom right, but that could be a simple them walk in and

you don't have to walk into that room to see that guy's dead? Now I know. I know that, but what I'm saying is I find it very strange that, given the description of the crime scene and how blood. There was that these guys had nothing on them, but there in the house, for how long or throb of Lee raised probably three to four minutes so right so within three, three to form, but I am, I gonna call to nine when one in there waiting outside on the curb right, but I don't have to convince you, I'm just telling you my suspicions this, for this seems very suspicious to me. None, I guess, I get the leaning that way, but I look like I'm saying I think, there's that there's a ob there's an explanation for that, because one, the first person you're seeing is not so brutal and then the next. I think you know if they're telling the truth that once they got to the father's room, that that was it. That was the tipping point. This is

awful and we need to get out of here, but it, but to add to your point with with them being you say: sheltered I actually with them being sheltered, that they would be even more shocked and even more unable to control themselves at the at the crime scene yeah. But I think that's what led them to the flight mentality. You I mean, nay. I think it is quickly let's get the hell out of here. We don't know what's going on here and if somebody is the killer still here, we need to get out of here way more so than the be somebody else. The initial questioning of sebastian in a tif ends at eight thirty, a m that day when an officer takes the two men to buy clothes, they go remember they provided the clothes to the detective, so they need something to where they take them to buy some clothes and they take them to eat breakfast afterwards. The officer takes a bashing

a team to the Bellevue motel and the two having been up all night there. Now, hotel. They presumably sleep until about two p m that afternoon at two p m they are picked. again by detectives and taken back to the Bellevue police department for further questioning this also during this time. They also conduct finger printing and photographing of the two young men. They are let go at about six p m. They are released from this, sir, at six p m from there the to go to a video store and sebastian anna teeth. Rent a vcr in several movies at

p. I locked buster at nine p m. P m Sebastian calls his father to tell that. Tell him what has happened rain so a couple things here, so there stand in a hotel, that's been furnished for them by the police right so and that now make sense. He you have these kids if they're not involved Definitely victims and this kid's whole life has changed cause his whole family has been murdered, but they're are also our number one suspect slash lead that we have so we need to keep them close. So you sleep all day, then you get question

And then you probably don't want to go out or do anything now saw a lot of people have really kinda speculated that, while these guys are definitely guilty, they went to blockbuster and rented some movies. Ah, I don't know, look you're you're two eighteen year old boys. This tragic event does happen. You're up all night, in question, you are then question again, maybe you're sitting in the hotel room, hey the hotel room I not have cable or has cable and needs is not the non negro hairless discovering some movies public access channel was all head of joking. I don't ride I know that, but but it's as funny to me that you know people will sit there and speculate or you know they rented some movies, they're they're murderers. Like I dunno, I think that stuff is a stretch. Wait. You would not know what you would do in those circumstances, if you know until it happens,

While I agree with that one hundred percent, I do have to call into question myself, because when I saw this report that they had done this, I found it. I didn't find it particularly like overboard, weirder strange the question in a little bit, but then I remembered way back when when we covered casey, Anthony and she had gone to the video store man. I'm Probably I dont know that I can't recur. my reaction, but my guess what my gut tells me. I probably held her feet to the flames for going to the video store, so what I should do. So I guess in this case as well, have it's crazy pit. I mean so thing I did find strange is the nine p m phone call from Sebastian to his father This seems, like a very traumatic event to somebody to anybody. Obviously I

I feel, like I really wonder the delay for that phone call and obviously sebastian not here with us today to explain why There was one. I would call a d maybe that maybe he felt that his only in first opportunity to actually make that phone call, and it was something he had to do all day long. But, however, I see that there's some windows of time, where that phone call could have been made and did not happen. Yeah yeah look at got again there's all these little actions that people put on to people to go: hey they're guilty. They rendered movies day. They watched the lion king first of all, What eighteen year old boys are gonna, go get some add in some wine and watch the lion king together. That's how I spent every friday night and we're gonna have to get in

come on- tell I spent last for head. I now here's the thing captain, though, that the, but, but I gotta harp on this phone call for a little because, had I been with you or with any of my other friends in discovered right there friends, let me finish school thought that ahead reason why you like us in every bay, harps on or that for all we know they go right from the murder scene, the crime scene to questioning and the cops might of told him since their eighteen there, on that, cusp,

I said Logan they might have asked. Do you need to call your dad? We need to call your parents, or maybe they did it or maybe they called them for them. I mean there could be some little tiny piece of information that we don't know. That's why I'm not going to harp on a harp on it too much. I don't know if it leads either way he either it was the first opportunity he felt that he could call or he knew that he had, wait at a time period before his able to call his father again, though there there are clear windows of time that he would have been able to call them, but we have to factor in some other things. We don't know what his parents' schedules Maybe during those windows of the time he he believed he would be unable to get a hold of either father or mother. The other thing to us, I guess, I am questioning why he delayed calling his parents and the reason, is what I should probably, as is his relationship with his parents. You know

kind of looking at it. In my shoes, I'm looking at it like look I'm in my thirty's. then that's romantic happen to me. Probably the first thing I would probably want to do is call somebody that that makes me feel some kind of sense of safety and secure That would be one of my parents. The thing, though, is have a good relationship with my parents. I am I an assumed that he has a good relationship with hit yeah, but also we have Sebastian hanging out with the teeth and achieve his best friend and how much consoling as he doing poor teeth that just lost his father, his mother and his sister, that's true, he could be tending to his his good friend. Now, on the day after the bodies were in the early afternoon, Sebastian in a teeth, go to barnes and noble bookstore. At about three p m, the detectives locate the two men at the bookstore. And they request another meeting with each of them and chief put participates in a three hour taped it

You and Sebastian does an hour and a half taped interview with the investigators and at no point these guys are asking for a lawyer. Well, not only that their cooperating. They handed over their closed anything These are investigators and actors are asking for interviews they're doing that ran their allowing the interviews to be taped. They're, probably writing things. Writing statements as well. During this time they ve submitted to fingerprints to other forms of test their there. While operating in every form and fashion that you would ask of a person expect of a person in there doing that now July fifteenth in the morning. The canadian consulate calls to obtain permission from the Bellevue police department to return sebastian and teeth to Sebastian, parents who live in vancouver

right. Ok, so make this a little more clear. So when Sebastian ends up talk him with his father, his father starts going had their questioning these eighteen year old boys. They need to come home. This is not right, so what they do like we said there in a hotel room that has been there being put up by the police department, so they have their there. contact, even though that they had contact with the detectives and stuff themselves and had their numbers. They didn't call. like when you call into work sick. You know you'd, be like sixteen in here, your second but you don't want to call in the strike to get your parents call in. For you, I mean,

found the same thing, I think they don't want to talk to the detectives. I think there were also nervous than their being told by Sebastian. Father hake come home. You need to come home at their question. You multiple times you need to come home, and so they have their counselor call. They say: hey it's fine. They are allowed to go there. They're not do anything wrong, so they leave. And then what does the police department do? They run to the brass and then tell the press that these two inch individuals, their fleeing yeah, ended. A funny thing is when you go back and you fine newspaper reports from July of ninety four, it's obvious it that's the one meat, media believed his well. That's what's reported that the two I led to Canada. That's why I wanted to point out that a consulate employ called bellevue police ass.

king for permission, stating that you know. Basically there saying is it ok, if these two young men leave is it kay that they returned to canada and you gotta keep in mind here Sebastian, that's his family, that's where he lives, that's where he's from he was just visiting and I as a further more teeth his family's been killed. Ashton's family might be the closest thing he has to family. At this point right, but I'll also say at this point in his life. You know Canada has more his home. You know he's a he citizen of canada ready on the user. American citizen he had lived in canada for the majority of his life. They had lived in multiple countries, but but he lived in canada for the majority of his life one. The thing that's gonna happen once he gets a canada as he misses his family's funeral and that becomes,

big deal. Yes, so we have approximately ten a m on July fifteen. Ninety ninety four, the lead detective on the case and Bellevue, learns that the reform funeral will take place. That day and then that evening sebastian anna teeth. They are now at the burns residents in canada, and they're watching the evening news, and that is when a t discover noise from watching the news that his family funeral was planned and took place that day without him being there. Why? Yes, in the traditional muslim traditions, I guess you have to be buried within a certain time period no got so it sites. wanna, say three to four days, so the argument here is that he would unknown known based on tradition, but again here's what weird, as we do, We don't know this dynamic. We know that his family's muslim, but we don't know how orthodox sir unorthodox they are, but his

surrounding family as the one that that took care the free the funeral arrangements, so he not unknown. It's a little odd though I mean I think I could toy see sebastian dad saying you guys need to come home. yeah, does achieve come with. You were not well. I say I say yes, brain him with us, but What I thought was interesting was win us fashions. Dad was talking about this said were watching the evening news, and we see that not only there was a funeral if they're, going hey a tif, mister funeral. What's up with that right that that the mom said off camera. If you watch this, this was on the confession. Tapes on netflix confession: tapes. It's episode, one and two. She

off camera- and she says- hey it wasn't- I was just upset he literally like yelled at the t v and like almost like dove towards the t, v and anger. Well, and in all fairness to I don't know muslim tradition, well enough to say that you know how many days is the rule. But I just want to point out to the listeners that are that are wandering, so we have the these are discovered at two a m on July thirteenth, the date we're talking about it. the funeral would have been on July, fifteenth so too, days later now was a tradition that its three as for days, I don't know but I'm getting out- I don't know what I'm saying is that the protocol is that they have to be buried within that time here, within a certain amount of time, bright red right what I'm? What I wanted to point out here, was that we're stating that there's a good.

Chance, a tif, would have known what the tradition would be and should have had an idea of what was going to happen. If that's, even if that is the case, if he does have that knowledge, what I'm put out here, is they left the morning of the fifteenth and took a bus back to vancouver? I dont know how many hours it took them to get there. What I'm getting at is It was only two days later so if a teeth thought that they had three or four days whenever it is, maybe he thought that some he would contact him. He could just bought a bus and go right back down and attend the services. I do. I don't know what the Timeframe is on that, but obviously he took this bus. An early took him a few hours. They took hours, Get there right now, a lot of this stuff they're going to say what what? Why did this happen or why did this happen and that even Sebastian always kind of come back to this same explanation? We were young, we were just kids.

yeah, you know, there's there's certain times in your life, that you have to kind of step up and and be more adult like. I think whether it was a teeth's fault or his family's fault that he wasn't at the funeral. I think there's evidence that shows that he was upset about it, and so I would I assume that that's not his doing. If why would you be upset about something that you decided not to be at, and so he either here, nor there there's no law, This is all speculation, this does not rule evidence, yeah and obviously the Bellevue police department. They are putting a teeth in Sebastian through the ringer here and it looks like these two well. It looks like they are the main suspects. If you follow this investigation now, we should point out that the detail if they did have other suspects, or they should have had other suspects and who were the people, and how did they get this information well within just

days following the murders, the Bellevue police department. They received three tips through other law enforcement agencies regarding the horrific triple homicide, one was from a constable with the while canadian mounted police, the arcy mp, one from an fbi and format one from the intelligence division of the seattle police. These tips are significant to captain because they provided names, addresses phone numbers and the correct murder, weapon and motives for the murders as well the bellevue police department. Discarded. All of these leads well, let's, let's go through these least showy, so the first one from the arcy mp confidential informant contacted constable Colleen us r c m p. This inform it told the constable than a man, and we don't have the name of this man, but the name was provided from the informant to the constable. This man

all the informant that he had been offered twenty three. in dollars to kill and east indian family. They had pre. Sleep lived in Vancouver canada and had moved to Bellevue Washington. Galina us decided that this information was regarding the rafale killings. The informant told Galina he had heard this two days before the murders were committed officer, Goodliness contacted the bellevue police and the lead investigators on the reformers and communicated this information to them. The bellevue investigators travelled to vancouver. So I guess I wasn't air when saying that they didn't follow up on these leads because they attempted to with this one they travelled to vancouver and they knocked on the man's door. They attempted to speak with this man on two occasions,

However, the man was either not home or just simply did not answer the door for the police department, so the bellevue police ultimately returned to the united states without having made any contact with this tipp with this tipster many call at least he called in evidence even right, but maybe that's. It This is what I heard. That's all. I know don't show up at my house obviously, if people put out beyond thousand hours that on a head on a family, you think they're, not gonna, kill this guy well the other thing to is? We have to be clear that the the offering was for twenty thousand dollars to kill and east indian family. It didn't specifically named the rafale family. However, Have to wonder. Is this lead? In fact, talking about the refers- because it is, I think, it's very- like

if not exactly the right family, who fits the description right at the informant provided. I mean I don't know how many people fit the description of east indian family that had previously lived in Vancouver canada and moved to Bellevue washington recently recently right, so is this the person who murdered the rafale family or what's the motive The motive would be the twenty thousand dollars at your offered. No, what's why would you put the head out for are you paying twenty thousand dollars to have this family killed? While we haven't got to that point yet where we're we're still discussing, if this person actually carried it out- and the thing is obviously know this- this conflict

joan form. It did not say who had murdered the repay family when giving this information right right. He just simply said somebody was offered a contract to murder a family, it's possible, this man didn't except the contract or the money. However, since he talked about contract before the reface family was murdered. very least, investigators could have discovered who wanted the ravine family killed and that's what you're getting at right. Who who was? If you had bothered to speak with this man, you can, least find out. Who was the person offering up the money offering up the contract, because if this guy didn't except it, somebody else could have right, or here she could have found other means of carrying out this. These killings another lead as well, which is pretty solid, come from the f b I get. There in fbi inform this is about five days after the homicide, the Bellevue police department received a call from

the fbi, advising that one of their informants had come forward. Fighting information about the murder of the prophet family, the f b. I am format and again we. The name has been withheld from the same for me should you wanna reenact? This fiscal now talk told a detective of the bellevue police that a militant islamic faction said that tariq rafale this action. Yet this is a tv father should die because of his beliefs and teachings about the koran, the f b. I inform it also said this several days after the homicides. A member of this militant islamic faction came to his house and was worried that the fbi form it had seen a baseball bat that he and some other men had been carrying around in their car. So because of this, the the fbi inform it believed that the murder weapon

and used to kill the reface family, was in fact the baseball bat which they didn't know at the time there was, you know they had to do summer tests to make sure that there was a baseball bat that they believed was the murder weapon and but ultimately, that's where their investigation took them right, but I find out that they think it was in fact a baseball bat. The he killed The family- and this is where the the bellevue invest- gators ears should pork up. You know because this this should be considered a credible lead because the info I knew the murder weapon before this information was was common now before was made public and first of all, is the mother. enough, be I f b, I thought like so only down the street told me about this. Guy with a baseball. Bat is the f b. I listened to them now. I'm saying

while in the informant working for the fbi provided, like we said, provided names addresses and phone numbers of these people to the police, so they could follow up on sleet instead of following up on the lead. They basically said that the investigators basically thought that this FBI inform it was crazy right, like all this, this person that came forward this information easy. Therefore, we are not going to follow up on why. Why are they crazy well. I I mean that that's how dismissive they were of the lead. They don't say this person's crazy because of a b and c or we went and spoke to this person face to face in F, figured out that they are not a credible source. Right, and so it said they just dismiss it and say the person's crazy and, and it's not a foreign faction right, he didn't say forums. I said islamic faction faction yeah, but isn't it like

Is it the germany ramsay thing? Well that claims to be a foreign faction? Correira? Ok, so, but what is their motive? It's not just his! What were they trying to kill him for that? that its described is that his his teachings about the koran and his beliefs about the koran and I'll? Let you go into that, so I think, Maintain was, he was an engineer. He did some number grains and rigour realised that true east, where they pray to, was actually off by, like three degree, or something like that by a minuscule about very small amount. So in this guy was engineer, but also did last of with architect and so is one there's things where yell essentially you go. Well now all these mosque in all these places in canada need to be turned.

They need a gigolo, I'm a bit right. We need to pick up on his buildings a move em an obviously you can't do that, but I think it was pretty vocal about that and again I your murdering as stupid for one but sir to take some of your your muslim? and you got another muslim and there's a couple things he disagrees with you want, and so you want to kill him and makes absolutely no sense to me. It makes zero, well in. You know when I read this information about how dismissive they were, the they being the investigators regarding this lead. You know what popped in I my be brain immediately, reappointed head yet was was art are who we spoke regarding the morrow murray case ray and he's retired. U s marshal and the first thing that he told us is in any investigation to work properly, you should go.

Where the evidence takes, you write, or even you know,. David in follow up on this lead as what I'm getting at ITALY. That gave you what the murder weapon is correct, correct, so, even if it is just investigated even for for some point to the point where you can find out and make a correct determination if it's a in fact a credible, lead or not, and the third, in final lead is when the seattle police, intelligence division called the Bellevue police department told them that they had information that the fatwa numbness that right at you You are a firecracker drab and those f bombs on the show firecracker like the shock or of the fact that a real fact read today it's a it's a radical militant organization that they may have. Involved in these homicides, and this

How the? U s? State department describes the fatwa it's in islamic sect that seeks to purify Islam through violence established some time the early nineteen eighties. Most cells are located in north America and the caribbean Foch remembers. Have act, a variety of targets, the day view as enemies of it. Warm, including muslims themselves in it two following up on this led the Bellevue police department. They did not question any members of the islamic community and bellevue to find out if, if doktor repay, achieves father had conflict with any muslims in the area? A like. We said my unless thing about this game

one you you have this engineer come out and say: hey true, east might not be true. East gone against. You know your holy grail, the the koran right. So then you have this other and format. Saying hey there was this hit put out. Well, maybe that hit was put out that anybody in this extreme group right and this extreme religious group that that that money goes to you if you create this, hit his arms and so could be connected. They could both be connected. Both leads will not only both and here's what we're here's one thing. I question This is one thing that I think that they are the Bellevue police department. Messed up on is that I when they receive this information, you're you're talking about these are potentially huge leads. All three of these are complicated leads at that there. Seeing all these leads within days of each other and here's what guessing went down, I'm guessing that the

Investigators probably thought well, how can any these leads be credible when were receiving another lead that so complicated, just like the one we just received, meaning that even if we of them is true, then two of them are false, Now we know and that's why you point out a good thing that two of them could be connected Hell all three of these rights could be connected and then what the fuck They, there was another murder that took place where they were responsible for the death of a family, a muslim family, and that father also was a engineer and was speaking up against different things. of the muslim faith. So I think we should leave you with that thought. That's the thought they were leaving. We! U with today, is the possibility that not only one of these could be right. All three of them could be correct, rendered it they could be connected.

I think some some of that too, with the bellevue police department with when something is that big and also let us be frank about it happened before nine eleven, and so I believe, if it happens, after nine eleven, maybe they take. These leads low, more serious, but these are also leads that are by their bigger than you. You'd need to get some like. The the fbi involved well in that's another part where they messed up. Think about this one of the tipps is coming from an informant. is working with her helping the fbi in some form rain. So therefore, if you We're lay that information to me and you work for the fbi. That's when I'm goin, I got this triple. Homicide seems pretty complicated, we're getting. We complicated, leads and tips coming in guess what Mr Fbi, agent thank you for bringing this information to our attention, however, information came from you from your division. We need you to step in here and in oversee this or at the very least, oversee that one

don't worry that one lead or please contact your higher ups and have them get involved so yeah I mean it, There's a lot more again to this case, and now, let's do that tomorrow, the everybody for joining us in the very cold. When you're a garage did everything. I look at my code on care, I'm freezing my fuck raw. I hope everybody out their stays warm and enjoy the rest. Your day until tomorrow be good because and don't let her

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