In new orleans twenty twelve bruce catch. Here I drove to an address some one had given him that didn't exist ass. He stood in the park What were the address should have been? He was shot and killed. I'm you d umbra, join me for the newest season of counter clock as I die, the motive behind bruces murder. a series of events that have never been fully investigated until now binge all fourteen episodes of or clock season five wherever you listen to pod Discount sire, we know your time as I get thirty percent shorter average wait time when you buy and book on. My did. You know discount tyrant ourselves why waste check out our current deals at discount, tired out god or stop in and talk to dissociate. Today this I ask you to do I

the I don't want a wholly life, a prayer and contemplation. I want a life.

right last straw, seeking struggling and debauchery. I'm not, and to settle for one experience when there is a whole lifetime of experiences to be had I'm so We for knowledge that I live several lives at once to acquire a catholic in a buddhist reader and a rider a centre and a philosopher father american and a white man, I no longer any desire to feed into any one category the canvas on the altar was also given to me. It's calligraphy. Translate to moonbeams appears to the bottom of the pools. Yet in the water trace remains not a trace remains. I have two definitions for the word magic, the first is knowing that I can affect change too mild will even behind these bars

their meaning is more experiential seeing beauty for a moment in the midst of the mundane. movies, it's always the other prisoners who have to watch out for in real life is the guards and the administration, they go out of their way to make your life harder and more stressful than it already is being on death row were not enough. They can send a man to prison. running bad checks and then torment there until it becomes a violent offender, one of our laws mine's greatest inventions was moon, water The prisoner was discovered me making moon water and said it was so illogical. It nearly drove him insane or money afterward. He was stopped as freedom, frustration and Bello dishes crazy. It may no sense. I should make it my heart for some reason The thought of it seemed a hard his mind. Then again, he was Allow me to begin with moonlight.

it can be made only once a month on the night of the full moon after the sun goes down and the moon rides high. You fill a container with water. Window ledge, so that the moon cast a reflection in it. You must they're all night so that it catches as much of the moons light as possible We have to remove it right before morning, the sun slight, never touches. It must then be kept in the dark place. My wife- and I did this every full moon for years and we would take a single sip of water at the same time each night, while thinking of each other, we were united, no matter how far apart we might be. You take a single step each night so that you have enough to last the entire mine for every way the system attempts to separate us. We can't help but seek out new ways to pull ourselves together. In the end, fulness in ignorance, always fail in the face of intelligence and love the proof

and the moon water, seems peers to the bottom of the pools. Yet in the water a trace remains. Not a trace remains Not a trace remains welcome to true crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing. Thanks for listening, I'm like your host and with me the only Eight certified death, metals, our camp counselor, the captain Rocky oh, who ciccu aids, blew up my boy, my vocal, it's good to see you and it's could be seen yet to the after party. We are sitting here staying up late garages, open it, the cold down outside love. These or time nights. Well, we had

Do a part three of this, because it is so huge and we who I am and think we're going to cover all the details anyway, but we're gonna do our best. This would have to be like that twenty partner, and I just yet if you weren't so long winded, we would have been able to get through and to try to keep my mouth shut for these, but we want to put. another episode to episodes in one week as a thank you to all the support that we got and season three and the growing of the show being rolling stone magazine. Everything that you guys do for the show is beautiful. we appreciate it and now we're trying to give you back as much as you give us thank you for joining us each week in the garage and thank you to the two are good friends who signed up on the mailing list and joined the true crime garage army, and I want to thank west from san diego california, for his donation, hugh, stoning

providing the beer bring in the beer to the after parties very special thing. Rather they are not just for us, but for everybody rolled in a keg, and if you want to support the showed this go to true crime garage dot com, we have old episodes, the subsidies? Are we sell, t, shirts and stuff like that, so as to get down with the business and let's get right into part three wes memphis. Yes, this is episode three, I recommend listening to them in order, but you're welcome to listen to them and in any order you see fit. So if you want to start with this, one welcome today after party, where we left off the police had just picked up. Jesse miss Kelly junior, they brought him to the police department and they are going to interview, now they're interested in him, because he knows of some character, They are interested in jason old when an damien echoes the list that was put together by the juvenile officer, and he basically came up with a list of about

people that he would say that maybe would have something to do with these matters and jesse's interested in talking to the police, because one he seems to be a bit of a helpful character and too he is, Suddenly found out that there is reward money and if he knows anything this case he should tell them so that he could help him and his family get receive that money. It's about ten, a m when they pick up jesse, miss kelly and take him to the poor department now this is approximately a month after the murders. So the heat is on four police, and they need to solve this thing soon, because there's panic, there's been three boys. That started of missing. They were found dead, they were found terribly mutilated and this crime needs to be solved. yeah. That crime happen on may fifth, and now he's been interviewed on june, the third so they have him in there talking to him. They're gonna question him and they ask him one thing that I found

resting captain is the day came up with, with the help of the fbi. They came up with a list of questions that they should ask people now some. Sometimes this is somebody that maybe they just knocked on their door or maybe that somebody that was of interest and they brought them to the police department. But they tried to ask most of the people about the same questions. and first thing they want to know is, did does he know, thing about the murder. Sir. Has he heard anything about the martyrs while Jesse would explain to them that he he knew of them? first, because he was on his way to work, and he had heard on the news he was going to go to a roofing job, any on the news that the boys were missing, so We can assume that this is made six. This is not may fifth, because its being reported in the news now. He says that same day he had come home and when he was done with work, a friend of his had told him that the boys had been found. So we do know that this is made six because they were found in the afternoon

day does he know anything about damien eccles or does he know anything about jason baldwin? And he says yes, I know them. I know I know jason Baldwin he's a nice guy and we we ve been friends. time to time, and I dont really no damien eccles. I know who he is. I think he's kind of weird, but I know he's a good friend of jason Baldwin's and after they get talking to for a while. They did they ask him if he would like to take a polygraph test and he agreed to it. Says he would have no problem doing so and of course, they need again to get the permission from his father. They find his father his father's at like a fast food restaurant and he signs. He says yes or no problem outside the paper. and so now they have permission to give him the polygraph. They ask only about six or seven questions. I dont have them in front of me, but basically it's simple. It's simple questions things like did you.

Do you know anything about the murders? Have you heard anything about the matters? Do you know who killed these boys ass, a questionnaire that they had an in width? those questions they are going to sprinkle in things that may or may not have anything to do with the case that they are looking into and one of those questions that they ask him is have you ever done? Drugs and he basically says no to most of these questions he doesn't know, killed these boys. He doesn't know much about the martyr. Oh he's never done drugs and they come back to and they explained to him. You are lying Your note. We know that you're lie my. How do we know this machine that we have read it tell less than your locker machine it. actually you're. It's hooked up to your brain, Your brain is telling us that your lie, while this confuses jesse- and he is let's go back- just a simple minded guy. Yes, so for the people that want to point out that the west meant

three are innocent. You will hear them say that he has an I q as low as sixty eight or sixty seven for the people that want to say that their guilty, sometimes they report, that his iq is as high as seventy, nine or eighty, so it It depends on the ventura and some people like to say, like he's, has a handicap. I don't I don't like to think of them like that. I just think he's very simple and that's the way I'd like to view it so he's used by being told that he's lying and they point out to him. While we know that you ve done drugs because we ve seen you sell that men he explained to them, I've never sold them, but ok. Yes, I have done drugs so now they're getting him to admit to some things and they start with what we're going to call an interrogation What I'm gonna call of they started with questions they moved on to them a graph now they're gonna, say questioning him more. This is an interrogation. And they believe that he knows something of these markers and

it is more than just hearing about it from his friends, so he starts to agree with some of the things that they're telling and he's gonna start. by telling them that, yes, he was, he was in robin hood hills and he had been there before and he got there around nine, a m He says he woke up at nine a m, but then he got there about twelve. Well, that's the first. The first state pour the questions. He says he was there as early as nine yeah and they will there coax him a little bit more and that of hashish moves to noon. online, it's kind of hard to find, but there's there's two recordings. One of the first confession. The first statement made and then the second one. But you can also find the one that happen about you. So later. So, if you're interested in them those are available on the internet real quickly. I'm gonna try to go through the his first

in fashion, I'm just going to sum it up real, quick, yes and we'll go through some questionable things with it, but basically he says that that he met Jessie and I'm sorry that Jessie had met jason and Damien and robin hood hills and he got there running time they walked. He walked there in the other, boys had walked, there is well and he states, That's when he saw these saw the three kids and they hollered Adam to come in what damien hollered at an end the kids come in there and he says that he saw Damien hit, one boy and bruce em up real bad, is that jason starts to attack one of the other boys and then at this point, the police are already their concern bout. This potential confession that they're getting because they know that the police. They know that the kids were at school There was no way for them to have been there at nine, a m or yeah, or even if you go with the toy

of a clock; they're not gonna, be out of school. By that point, I get Jesse then says while the boys skip school yeah. Well, he starts off by saying that he didn't go to school right and I well, I didn't go to school and they go yeah gabbert the boys were in school and he has no. They skip school right and and so that their walking him further down the road and further down on this confession and he's to get a little more elaborate with what he sees and He starts to say you know they. They want to know if there was anything sexual going on and he explains that the that they Damian and jet jason started screwing them and stuff, I believe, is pretty much yeah and I'm basically, what he's saying is that there were tryin to then I said well, what do you mean by that? He said well that they pulled off their pants, so he was this assuming that they were going to try to screw the boys

and then he goes well. What makes you so sure that that is what mean was gonna: do anything like what they mean have his pants on button and at some Why it's a little unclear to me if it's, if it wasn't during, interrogation, but there are multiple intact nations in theirs different parts that are recorded of the confession. But some things that may have scared jesse into opening up or to creating a story to tell them the police, you some tactics here they had kitchen gary so the lead investigator. He had in a circle- and he put three often cited the circle and he put exe. All around the circle- and jesse said you see the circle, those three dots inside Well, that's you jason and Damien. Those axes all around the circle, those or police. Now do you want inside their circle. Or do you want to be outside of that circle? And he says

I wanna be outside of the circle and kitchen. go on to show him a picture of one of the dead boys. Later. Jesse would say that this shocked him that they, he saw a picture of of the face of one of the dead boys and he could see that he was all beat up and he was all bruised up and he probably had never seen a picture of a dead person, let alone a dead child before a hopefully in ever did what shocks. Well, if it couldn't shock him any more than this shortly afterwards, ghetto would play a audio tape for jesse miss kelly. and what it is, it's a child's voice and he said one sentence of the boy on the recording says: nobody knows what happened, but me this terrifies Jesse he doesn't know what to think of the picture. He doesn't know what to think of the recording. He doesn't know who

the recording or why it that was said. Well he's going on and on into this confession, and it's a lot of back and forth. You PETE I have seen this bits of this confession in the movies in the documentaries and you can find some of it online, those documentaries or paradise lost or western memphis, and I dont that we're gonna go into every bit of it because we'd be for another, now would have another after party after this one. look, if you're really interests in this case, start with a paradise lost sancho. To give you a bunch of information, we can start with our start with our podcast, obviously ah maxie pretty proud of what we ve done so far with the first two parts with the facts that were put it out. And but check out those documentaries than the west memphis, and then you are tell me if you're really into this case, you want to check out devils, not yet the devil. not was a book that came out. I believe it was definitely after the first Paradise lost movie and I believe before the second one. I actually think did this

Second one. The second paradise lost that starts to implicate, may be John mark buyers as having been the perpetrator of this crime, the devils Hence around that quite a bit. Anybody, that's read. That knows what I'm talking about and maybe Paradise lost, got that deal from the book, and then they recently made a movie ah called devils got, and I heard that they changed the sky at the screen play a little bit because they wanted a habit match with the new evidence that has come out ah by aways. There's a confession as very fashionable now to me. The first statement given sounds It sounds like my god is tommy that he's telling the truth but there. There also leading him and then all the information that you know we you you just gave beforehand it dismay, should question wisest kid confessing.

All well and when you say the first statement, what you're referring to is theirs multiple recordings of the confessions right and you're. Talking about the first confession that recorded in its entirety sounds what you said. What it sounds it sounds legitimate to me like my gut is telling me that he's that he's telling the truth, that's my thought, but ah nothing else makes sense to me: okay, well the far as the confessions go and I've listened to them in their entirety, and I I know you have as well, and I will say, let's just go through some things that are of question. Okay now these might be things that point towards his guilt or things that might point towards him being assent or that the police are leading. Or what have you? The first thing, the obvious thing that stands out most people's mine is the times by the time, doesn't make any sense. Will the the prosecutions timeline

threw out the confessions that were taken on this day, the times Jesse change times eight times he will give eight different times of day for when he first met up with dame in the right and the investigators are always leading him later. In the day there trying to get from that nine o clock to try to get away from that noon. The investigators the boys were last seen around six or six thirty p m, so they need they need damien, jason and jesse to have met up with those boys at that time are late right, not at noon. So, as we said He starts off, saying nine and the nine becomes noon and the new becomes after after after work, it was after work. It was about five o clock. While he did. You have your watch with you that day now, Well, then, you may not know what time it was. You said it was fibres. now we're up to six and then later becomes seven or eight. There was a light or was it dark and then

You'll says, while that sums it up because Jesse says well, it was it was getting dark when we had reported in the first episode that the moon, that the the sun went down. Moon came up about seven forty one that day it's like favorite line or one of my favorite lines in a movie from perks of wallflower, the main character ass, his dad for fifty dollar bill, the dad says too dollars. What do you need ten dollars for? It's like they did the same thing too, it's like was it four or five? Was it ok? So five ok was dark and then we just keep pushing it back while real This is how we got two seven or eight p m as far as jesse's cancer, once they had got to five o clock at some point. The investigator says now earlier you had told me it was more like seven or eight and There is no part on any of those tapes now maybe this was a discussion that was off off the tap off the record.

There was no discussion that was being recorded where jesse had said earlier that it was seven or eight. he's leading him up to seven or eight and exactly what you said that the police ask him now. Was it seven or eight and jesse's responses? Not seven is not eight uses yet was seven or eight right right. You pick and not only there, you could pick either one in youth still be considered guilty. There is no right answer unless you're the police, so we have the times there. The tie are confusing the times or are a problem for the police department and their problem free for jesse's confession. The other part is when they see talking about the boys being tied up now, the least want to know you know how. How are these boys tied up with jesse says they were tied with rope and that he at no point does he ever indicate that he understands that the hands were tied to the ankles? Remember we said that the right hand was tied to the right ankle, and so

and he says that their hands were tied with rope. What color rope it was brownrigg, pisa, that's what color rope is this is a problem, because we know that there were tied up with shoelaces yeah and they weren't tied with, hands behind their back, so that again it's it's weird thing word site out. Ok, so you ve got an alley that jesse explains that they they couldn't have been tied hand to two ankle, because they they were trying to run the one boy had taken off running. so, they can't run when you're tied hand ankle and he's the one that went and got the boy and stopped him. So at some point, the police have to have him, stop the confession and he's going to have to go through it again because they weren't obviously tied with rope. We gotta get that right, take on a fixed somethin's. So there's some other problems. Okay, so what one thing that

jesse had said was that jason and Damien it started screwing them and stuff, meaning the victims. Okay, well,. Here's a problem with that we know How the boys were tied if they were going to be sodomizing the boys, it's probably closed impossible with how they were fight without getting into specifics. He does talk about oral actually ask if anybody was having oral sex and he does say that damien in jason we're having a stick in there. Things in their mouths of two of the boys. He said that they were holding them by the ears now that that is a problem for jesse, because there are are injuries to some of the boys, if not all of them. That would indicate an act like that occur. Oh yeah! If you go again science, yes

the police want to know, did jason well. First of all, they want to know the jesse rape any of the boy and he says no, I didn't do any of that. One thing. You'll notice in these confessions is that jesse is constantly, he will tell some of the story and then he'll say and then that's when I left and then later they'll get him to tell more of a story, and then he go always refers back. And then that's when I left they'll tell a little bit more and then that's when I left he's constantly try get him out himself out of that, or this is the end of the story now then want to know. If any of the here's some problems that they have with jesse story when they're talking about the rape of the boys now we'll here more than one time jesse say that Damien Roy, myers and both of them raped branches Ok, so now you starting to get the names of the victims wrong here.

and tat. You just got him. We're all know he's referring to buyer may I dont know if he's referring to more or buyers, but he says myers right, which is kind of, smashing of the two and then he talks about both of them raping branches, but there is a problem, for here is a problem for jesse. At some point he doesn't realize this, but I think he's trying who confirm their story or put validity to his story. He said at some point that the more boy got away started to run and jesse caught him and brought him back Well, now, he's just implicated himself and he's he's gone from having witnessed rape and murder. To now being involved in the actual kill all one he's not do anything to stop these attacks happening, but then, when the one goes to get away. If it was

for him bring them back then that boy, when lived exactly eight on jesse story, and only that may be whatever was going on would have stopped because somebody got away anyway. He now implicated himself, the poor, You want to know if jason our damien went down on any of the boys now. Why do they want to know this? While we went through some of the topsy and we were not going to go through it in its tired entirety, because it is just too much should take its you can find it if you really want to read it. But thing that I will point out for you is it there were asian there were damages to stevie branches, penis it had some bruising on it, and they wanted to know if somebody had gone down on any of the boys, because this was something They would have expected. Something had happened for him for those bruises to occur,

yeah I mean those bruises would also be with any sexual abuse. Ok- Let's talk about something that he had said earlier in the ghetto he said I seen damien hit this. One boy improves em up real bad bouquet. Well, I do believe. I do believe that this crime, Cook a certain amount of time to to occur the way that the things we're done these boys in the way that they were left in the woods. I believe that it would have taken a certain amount of time for this to occur what I find strange. He is here and I'm I'm obviously no doctor gap and I'm just hanging out in the garage with you know: you're not a doctor, but is there any bruised, em up real bad? You usually punch somebody or hit somebody in a bruise instantly. I dont know Jesse's definition of bruise, but it seemed by definition. A bruise is usually something you see well after the fact

I don't know. I think if you hit some by amending the going, gets blotchy red, splotches and stuff the other thing they wanted to know who had a knife jesse did you have a knife now know who life did damien have a knife, no jason had a knife. Does he did yes of several months Not there, but has several me has several was, but what knife did he have with them at the crime scene? It's a pull out, lock blade. So it's it's the kind of blade that you when you pull it out that lock into place? Well, Jesse's asked you know to describe the knife and he, he says, it's a lock played and he says bout six inches, it's it's a blade, that's about six inches and what kind of blade is it well the problem with this is he says it's a regular blade. Now again I don't know, Jesse's definition of bruising. I dont know his definition of a regular blade, but

when I hear somebody say regular blade, I'm thinking of a flat single, edged, lock knife, the problem with that is They firmly believe that the injuries that worse did were suffered by christopher buyers when they cut off scroll down. They believed that it was us serrated knife that would have caused that wound. That would have move that portion of the, but this fathers they find a perfect give further dad who loves the perfect yard right. now say fifty dollars on the steel. Ever fifty seven battery trimmer set setting clumsy ever say fifty seven battery german plus the eighth eighteen battery and I wanna one charger- offer only in forty nine dollars. Ninety nine cents, real steel, find you it still, dealers that come what may nine ninety nine emma s s our pe offer ballot through. it's eighteen, twenty three at participating dealers while supplies last.

In new orleans, twenty twelve bruschi chair I drove to an address. Someone had given him that didn't exist ass. He stood in the park What were the address? Should have been, he was shot and killed, I'm you. D. Umbra join me for the newest season of counter clock as I die. the motive behind bruces murder a series of events that have never been fully investigated until now. Binge all fourteen episodes of or clock season. Five, wherever you listen to podcast curiosity pushes you ford, leading to new discoveries may only uses the best that goes to California has to offer, which is did in wines that tastes like no other enjoy the bold rivers of mail me pinata war, cabernet, sauvignon, red blend in may only bright may always knew lower alcohol, be no new, are discover the unrivalled taste of mail me at sub mail me that car that shop? Any? I oh am I dotcom mayo Naomi flavour ford. Please enjoy

possibly may only why it's a camel california body he never. describes surrounded knife, the normal life they pay bon they want to know where it would any of the boys dead when you left, because he remember he keeps saying that he left the first couple times? No, all the boys were still alive only laughed and Surely they get him to the point where he says the yes side, the buyers boy. You know he basic. They have three pictures. They have a picture of each boy on the tape and a lot of times he doesn't referred. The boys by names he'll just point at one of the pictures and say that boy any points at a picture nieces that boy he was dead. They killed him were left, while the investigators, by got tired of them, saying the wrong names At the mind, it's been like you'd steal, a point from now on, because you call in the myers and stuff doesn't work for what we need you for

and you know it's interesting to me- was at one point early in the confession he calls he refers to buyers boy as more- which the strange thing That was the police and the medical examiner early in the investigation had confuse those two boys as well that strange? It doesn't mean anything, but I was found it odd that that two of the boys were confused by multiple people anyway. He said Yes, the buyers boy was killed before he had left and ask how how he was killed while he they choked him they choked him. his hands and then they choked him with a stick, a little stick yeah and then they threw him into the water and I believe he says that he saw him still twitching earth feet so kickin yeah, one of whom was kickin once he was thrown in the water and he's referring to the buyers boy. There's a couple

arms. Are we don't really know who is refer here? We do because he says that one right there and get your says you're talking I myers boy. I know what I'm saying is for for most of the interrogation switch in them up, so but for this instance, he's talking about he's, he's pointing to christopher buyers, now. The reason why this is important is because, out of all the out of the three victims, when you refer to the topsy report. There was a lot of damage done to all three of these boys. There was more damage done, Christopher buyers than anybody else, but one of the few body parts that was not damage on christopher buyers was his neck. There no indication of having been choked, strangled or choked with a stick on his neck right Furthermore, he didn't drowned. He was the only boy out of the three that didn't have water and his lungs are you? What are we assume that he had died before per put the water? He was dead,

four is put in the water, but according to Jesse he's kicking. He was kick him still kicking. He would have been exactly he would have been alive and he probably would have inhaled some water at that point. According to the autopsy report, Christopher byers died from multiple injuries and had bled out, which makes me really feel bad about my gut instinct. when I think about what my gut was told me when I first heard the first interview with him now things that don't work out well for jesse. In my opinion, is there he he's asked? How did they keep the boys quiet me says? Well, they do held their hands over their mouths and then at some point he says that they stuffed their shirts into their mouths. this is. This is interesting to me, because is not something that I've heard anywhere else and it wasn't a quest in that they were specifically asking him, you know: did you put a shirt in their mouth? There were other points in these confession: where he's being led clear- Leaving lead

once in a while he's offering up information without having been led to this answer. and this is one- and we have any proof that we add shirts on there- Some of you saw in a movie with no your exactly right, but what I'm getting at is put the people. That point over and over again that the west Memphis three are innocent. They will constantly say that, oh, he was being led on every single question. He was now some of this stuff. He was coming up with on his own, whether he had seen it or whether he was making it up at that point now the The problem that I have with his confession that doesn't look good for jesse is that he does admit that only one of the boys had their penis removed. Their network was cast this is also a month afterwards and how many rumours are happening in that town. The reason why I have a problem with that is, as we reported in an hour first episode, what was reported in

newspaper the day after the boys were found as a mere what's reported, I understand, but what I'm saying is the way, reported in that newspaper is what starts off everybody's general understanding of what the police found in that, standing is that all three boys were set, surely mutilated that's what was stated in the news that doesn't mean that they didn't hear other rumours at a month later. But what I'm getting at is that's one of the things that you need to look at. That's one of the things that the police were holding close themselves. They they were. They were ashamed that that information had got now, but they knew that when they find the right person. The right person would know that only one of them- was I mean, they're, the ones castrate, but want there is abuse to one of the kids genitals, but keep in mind for hours,

earlier Jessie misskelley knew nothing about this crime, so for him to come up with with something like this and be spot on, He goes straight from knowing nothing to knowing something that that is not only the need doesn't know anything. He does answered that he didn't know any you didn't know anything at the time. This is me he doesn't know somethin. I understand answered as I get What I'm getting at is that this is a problem for jesse miss Kelly. Wouldn't you agree that he knows he knows, he's reporting a fact that is he's reporting something the police. That is a fact that the general public not have known, as fact after this confession anything else, you want to touch on the confession cap now, ok, so after the confession, the other boys are promptly arrested. and now charges are being filed against all three of them

we're not going to go through all the details of the arrest and how this all went down, but you can imagine, what's going on and in most of you out, there have seen the paradise lost movies or the west of Memphis movie, and this doesn't go down like you know normal situation there. Now even people, the right to call home right away. Ah jason Baldwin parents. I'm not worried that for a while. So kind of going down a little funny they arrested at night and according to arkansas law. They are not really supposed to issue a warrant for rest for a night time but process, and that has to that has to have special circumstances and though six circumstances would be that you, you would think that the the perpetrators would flee that you would think that they would try to destroy ever it's or that they could conspire together to to form a story, or you know create a story of innocence and young thing. This gives them enough reason to rest the matter,

now in a reason. Why is this? Was a month later, if you're worried evidence being destroyed. Well, it's been a month if you're worried about them. up with the girls were our, though, is within that last month, if your damien echo in your jason baldwin your buddy, that with you, ah he's not being put into question. The alternative would get around town all you know they they got, miss kelly in there in their question in them, and if you, if you heard that in the end, you are involved in this one that give you some time to start getting ready stuff one of the boys was a minor, the other the other ten year. The adult never had a drivers. reasons right. Jason Baldwin was sixteen bear. Familiarly was seventeen right, but there's not probable cause to believe that the two of them have the ability to flee and youth and, furthermore, any any general and the giant would tell you that they ve already had the opportunity to destroy evidence and they ve already had the

opportunity to conspire to come up with a good story whom I get that, but also if these boys were involved, they were brutally murdered three kids, so the public's out fisk, I'm not saying that it shouldn't have happened, I'm just saying that it's not normal. It's abnormal to issue a warrant for arrest for an evening for the for the nighttime. I agree with that. I'm just saying that if, if I'm the cops and I find out through a confession or whatever, that somebody murdered kids, I'm gonna go pick em up as quick as I can get. You have to get a judge out of bed or away from dinner that night to come in and issued the war, and then you go in you apprehended, though the one child in leave the man. The other thing here is one thing we I should point out that that goes against this, this is bad for the police. They did spend about twelve hours that day with jesse miss kelly.

Forty one minutes of that time ended up on tape, are being recorded. Yeah, that's not good! That's not good for the police, the the bad thing for the people that believed that the west Memphis three are innocent. Would be lotta people point out. Well, they interrogate them for twelve hours. Well, that's not really the case. They them up at ten a m and by two p m. He was, he was spitting out a confession. I dont really loved the tactics of showing the picture of the dead body. Maybe that's general procedure, I don't know, but the strange voice of the boy saying I'm the only one that knows what happened seems since the law in question more things seems to me, there are definitely fishing well, they the boys it got him arrested the west Memphis three damien eccles jason baldwin jesse miss kelly. Now they ve gotta. Try these guys ray. So it's decided that they're all gonna be tried as adults and they're gonna have to separate trials, which is complete bullshit for jason Baldwin been sixteen yeah

yeah I've. I've always thought actually that probably jesse and jason could have been charged, as has youths now on jesse deftly dismantling. Yesterday I mean anybody there. would have taken some time or if they would have evaluated him further. I mean that be the logical thing to do what they decide to do there going to try jesse, miss kelly by himself because then there is a certain law and I don't know which it is, but in unless he's willing to implicate the other two he's confessing about than he has to be tried separately. So, first of all, they have Jesse's trial. Ok, now this is covered, an paradise lost one. Gatt Do they spend a lot of time covering his case in and you can see him it's strange. You know you see him. He doesn't ever really look at the jury. He doesn't look at that his lawyers Tom, to keep his head down, so he does looks down on the ground the whole time and

they they later on. They wanted to get a public opinion on his his. You know what they thought of how he carried himself in court. You know because going into this. He was looked at as kind of a local bad ass is somebody that, as a as a boy that liked to get in fights because he wants to be a wrestler yeah, he was kind of a tough kid and a lot of pie were shocked when he showed up the court. Knees, like you said, he's only like five foot tall and they see very small kind of meek, looking person, five one so by tat, yeah and in and he gets there and he spends the entire trial staring at his shoes. He doesn't cup at anybody. As you said, the lawyer told him do that public opinion was was kind of on the fence about that date, while some of the people that it made it look like he was scared and intimidated, which made Look almost innocent. Other people thought that it made him look dis, interested or

you no kind of kind of disassociated with what was going on, I believe jesse was scared, though I think you definitely was scared. One hunter percent nominees locked away. He he just wants to go home to be with his family. There's lots talk about how like he had a lot of issues. Ah, sir asian anxiety from his mother, when I was younger, so can imagine what through his head now he's in jail with with no family yet, and there there's some- problems going on to outside of the court, his defence attorney stem, is, is having problems with jesse when he's trying to put together the case. Why? Because just he is when his when Jesse's. Others around Jesse's innocent. He pleads cities innocent. When his father leaves, he's telling his attorney that he's guilty any tat. He continues to confess to his attorney ends up occurring, we're gonna make this could shorter than it. Then it should be. But what ends up occurring

the attorney figures out, did jesse doesn't understand that the defence attorney works for jesse by that that he's trying to help him out exactly he figures out the jesse Instead, the attorneys just another detective that he's a cop and, These training all fairness, he kind of looks like a cop, I may add the beard and the heat exactly he look here. Similar to most of the detectives. The jesse probably spoke with at some point, and I think you told me that it was through jesse's father. They Jesse's father pointed out to to junior that that this guy it's for you that he's on your side, we're all on your side here and you need to tell the truth yeah. Well, I think this. While there was a bunch of stuff going back and forth, but even his mom, you know was trying to tell him like look. These people are here to help. You Jesse ends up being convicted and he's can did he sentenced to life in prison plus forty years and two after you dead

firstly, the imprisoned for years. He had in and then they figured out. Forty years from now, but that the real for that his city. That's that's my cellmate. Do you know the reason for that sentence so he received. one he received the life of the one man, and then twenty for each of the act, because one of the boys he said he caught and brought back, and that was more, so he received a life sentence for the death of Michael, more plus twenty years or stevie branch plus twenty years for christopher buyers, now january of ninety. Ninety four: there is a knife that is presented to the police, but not presented its mailed to the police. I believe they fedex to them So what knife is is this is the knife that John mark buyers gave to some the plaza your turn indifferent knife yeah, there's lots of knives in this case in actual

I think that when we went through the evidence it was submitted throughout the time of this investigation was like what eighteen or nineteen knives worse submitted as evidence at some point or looked at sent to the crime lab for now sis and one of those knives was a knife. There was given to the people that were wrecked wording and videotaping the one of the Paradise lost in cameramen yet, and it was around christmas time, John mark buyers had given a gifted them a knife and at some point, the person that received the knife thought that it looked to have been used There was something on it in this item could be blood well, they d the good people at h b, o decided they should turn the knife into the police department, the police department. That in turn gives it to the crime lab and they are able to determine. This is quite strange there. Able to determine that the blood there is blood on the knife and that the blue. matches that of christopher buyers. While

is a problem because is found in the possession of john mark buyers. They were going to ask John. buyers about this knife and how he had received, didn't and what he had done with the knife. And would there be The reason why lot matches, but it doesn't match like exactly right, says the type the same type right, but for the purpose of their questioning it matches Christopher byers, okay, so they're going to interrogate and in in air You john mark buyers about the knife they want to know. Why did the boys blood would beyond the knife he doesn't know. He doesn't know that their. There is no reason why there should be any blood at all. They dont bluntly. Ask him about christopher buyers, he's. He goes on to say that maybe he was using it to cut dear me or maybe had used it cut himself while use to cut himself on accident while he was cut, dear me might have saved him a bit because they would or find out later determined that the blood there was on that knife also matched hits

now. This is curious because they're not they're, not father and son, biologically, though we know of exile, reported that exactly, but but I had started seeing our when she's pregnant so and they have so they end up having similar similar blood. Now we should be. We should point out here that your exactly right, captain that, although they did, is what what is referred to as an alpha test on that which which really breaks down and have much dna testing at the time, and all that does is break it down and say that you can eliminate this person or that person you can't eliminate these other people, and so I am sure that it probably matches more than just john mark christopher buyers, this was something that they were looking into during the course of putting together the case against Damien and jason, and this is interesting to because there was another knife that was found before that, and that was the

it was found in the water in the pond or lake, behind jason, Baldwin's trailer, and now this was not a lock knife was it captain knows noses called a survival knife, the blade doesn't bend, it is handle and blade. Looks like like night for a year like up in this. This would be like a seven or eight inch blade. This is a big blade. The problem with few of these things too, is one one, with the six inch blade that is discussed in jesse, miss kelly's compassion and this big giant rambo If that's found in the water behind jason, Baldwin's trailer, these are giant knives. These are big knives, ok, the injuries that one miniature swords the injuries, were stained by these boys, some of the sum of what could be looked at as potential stab wounds.

none of them know none of them penetrated the boys more than two inches. So that's a bit of an issue. You got all these big giant knives. If we're testing now is not to say that you couldn't just pick at somebody or worse or or lightly, go at it, but it's improbable my mind before, I can get to the trial of Damien and jason. There is another confession: by jesse after he's, convicted and he's driven by the deputies to the prison, he will offer a another confession to these deputies. I think at this point he dislikes the attention the deputies would go on to report what he says to them and I'm not gonna, go through the whole confession, but there are some chick just to his story. He says that he met up with damien and jason after he got off work in that things went down a little bit

front that they were hanging out in the woods in the water they had seen. The boys Damien called the boys over and jesse and jason were hiding and after Damien grabbed one of the boys. The boy started attacking Damien and that's when jesse and jason started eating the boys with sticks most of his confession. After that would be about the same, he would tell the deputies this again, though we got a point out is according to the deputies, he would tell me deputies believe that he lied to the police in his original confession about the times, because he wanted to see if he could trick the police and he also lied about the rope and he knew that it was shoelaces that had tied the burma. This was recorded mean, so we can go back and listen to it.

This this confession was given on the ride from the court house to the present ripe, and then there was another compassion that they reach the quarter when they are trying to make the deal. Yes, that that would be a third confession that was given to the prosecuting attorneys as well as His defence attorney jesse would letter later state that he only gave this confession to the deputies were driving him to present, because that they promised him that they would derive his girlfriend to see him in prison if he told them what really It happened, and they had also told him that if he didn't, if he didn't confess and hidden testify against those other boys did what's going to happen, is while he's locked away in prison, the damien in jason was going to get to his girlfriend. So regardless he offered this concession to the deputies- and we don't know it actually happened, or if the deputies made it up as a captain, it pointed out there

was another confession that was given to other prosecutors, as well as the defence attorney, and during that confession, is one thing that comes to light that we haven't heard so far. Is it the he explains that he had been drinking that day? yeah and he was drinking whiskey. A couple of times come up was he's drinking whisky boys of drinking beer and that he also mentions now, instead of just running and catching the kid that he actually actually takes part attacking the kid yeah that he's bees helping to beat up some of the boys and he's even holding some of the boys while they are being hit by the bye, damien and jason and he would also say that back to the whisky, though he would tell the tell them that was drinking. Evan Williams, I believe, was the name of the brand of whisky. Now I'm just stop you right here cause if you can find this recording. This is very hard to listen to back to the whisky that J Jesse was true.

He says he was drinking that day. He says the brand of whisky was Evan Williams and now key. Remember Vicki hutchinson. She would go on to say that she had gave that bottle to jesse, because he had helped her with something to pay him back and he says that after he left the scene of the crime that he was walking home and that he thrown the bottle and overpass near and overpass and had broken this on the side of the of the overpass there and Steady. His defence attorney refuse to believe that jesse was guilty the prosecutors and the investigators were trying to convince the defense attorney that he was in fact guilty right and so what they did was. They went with stanhope to go, find this broken bottle, and they were a

to recover at that very overpass that jesse had mentioned, they were able to recover the neck of a Evan Williams. Whisky bottle burden. That is weird. problem with that is remember. We had said earlier did that in that area as one of the most travelled free ways in the united states- and they find this bottleneck about a year after after the crime had taken place here after the time that you said he had thrown it now. Evan Williams is not a terribly uncommon bottle of whiskey. I mean it's well known in its proper we better known in that area. We should try to drink more whisky on the show. A refund more would have a lot of fun on this. This we ve got to talk about the second trial and a big thing that comes out second trial just beforehand. I believe, under the nonsense the day before Jesse

as I am not going to testify against Damien and jason now, the there we gotta be clear, because jesse was offered a deal, he was going to be offered overdue sentence of forty years rather than as a way of life in prison plus forty years. Just down the forty years so- and he was only If you look at paradise, lost the prosecution states to the family. If he doesn't, so why we don't have a case. That's what they say and a lot of people would point out. Look well, it's a real quick because I believe jesse would have been eighteen by this time, so he would have been fifty ape if, after he served forty years, he would probably get out and be alive or he could give you know after good Behavior whatever might get even more reduced after that point, but regardless he doesn't take. The deal

People would point out that this points towards their innocence, and I would point out that no, this is probably just a tactic of legality that his death, his defence attorney, is going to tell the him. This is what I would tell my client look for you to be guilty. if if they have nothing on Damien or jason other than your confession than they can't convict those two guys and as soon as the two guys- get off the guess, what were put an end to the appeal process, your case, and if you go and testify against them, it's gonna make it much harder for us to appeal. You case later right, so he's not really he's not really to me, doesn't present innocence by not testifying against this guy. But I we'll go further to say, did also does not present that he's guilty either right. Let's talk about the evidence that they do have right captain.

Let's we don't, we no longer have this confession, and this is what they base the whole arrest off of when they went and picked up, damien and jason. So we have no com, ashen. So what evidence do we have? Well, it's pointed damien, first, okay, so there are some people that say. They had heard or overheard him saying that he was involved in the case here. Come out many many years later and kind of explain. This One thing I want to point out, I think, he's kind of spot on with his explanation of this. And I'll tell you why afterwards, but the gent story is is that he was at a soft ballgame. He was seen at a soft game and he had made reference. That he had either knew what had happened to the boys or he had been involved in killing the boys and the reason they says that this came about was when he went to the soft game. People started kind,

pointing at him and looking at him, and he could hear them talking about the old there. He is he that is the guy that that's the weirdo that killed those kids. That's the the he's, a satanist and he's gotten a call, and he and his occult is called he'll those boys right, but jason Baldwin current talks about this that you now, even though that Damien was different, people saw as different that it was kind of became a joke like damien like the packets lunch. So which is not a weird. They need the student lights school lunch. So then all the boys or girls would say our which again your lunch, a cat. And then Damian would just go now. It just go along with, but it wasn't like he was being mean or rude, or they were even being that rude. It was just kind of a joke, like this guy's just a little different but We seem to like him when he liked. In strange any like poking fun it people and if you thought one of him he was happy to let you think that and why

Why do I believe his explanation? This goes back to that polaroid picture that was taken of him, the police were going around and they were showing this to people and asking if they knew if he was in a called or if he was a satanist or if he was involved. murder of these boys right. You sure that enough people, now your are like a celebrity in your small little town, yeah you're, you're you're, putting a face and a name to the crime and people nothing about this crime and at some point they see talking amongst themselves. Well, he must be involved because the police showed me a picture and set his name So I absolutely believe that the people, the soft ballgame said that about him and I betcha he retaliated with something that he probably should have said. You know they gave just enough rope any hung himself well so what other evidence do we have regarding Damien? Well, there was the knife that was found in the lake shore trailer park. ponder or labour that knife was thrown. There

a year before the murders even took place that that's what they would figuring out, but they would still present this as potential evidence. In the case now and again, I dont believe there's no reason to believe that that knife was involved in this case and, furthermore the according to jesse. Miss kelly's every single one of his confessions. The knife was jason's, it belonged to Jason jason, brought the knife jason's one that use the knife most of the time during the murders. However, nobody at nope We had ever said that that knife, the jesse describe not match the one that was found in the water right now, who what did it match? It matched a number a match, rainbows knife and it also matched a knife that several people have pointed out. That Damien was known to possessed or carried at one point rotten based on Jesse's. Fashion damien didn't use a knife, but

It doesn't matter if I have a rambo knife or not, because that's not the knife that was used in the confession, and it was probably not the knife that was used in the crime at all that they do. A lot of here. Stuff. I me when they have em read these quotes from one of his job. was or one of his folders any heeds, quoting lady spraying down, quotes from william shakespeare and metallica, and what's so wrong about that, like what that's? That's, not evidence of anything I wrote down plenty of metallica quotes when I was in why don't they I'm close those their lyrics but anyways? The point is that you know that's something that you know Damien seems like a guy, that's costly, searching for knowledge, so I think it started way back then, even though he was a shitty student but they use that against him in this trial, but is not evidence. Speculation are hearsay. There was, I witnessed testimony against Amy,

Somebody had seen Damien near the scene of the crime on may fifth, now. Who was that that was his girlfriend? That was her aunt that had seen him the problem his eye. Witness testimony was ditch. never says that she sees damien with jason or with jesse he sees Damien with her niece Domini bell That's a little strange because it no point in jesse, miss kelly's confession is Domini ever present So is this evidence, or is it just something that that might point to him being innocent than of mistaken identity? I believe that the aunt would be able to I easily identify the to the two kids. You know Domini in and damien, but did she just get up the wrong day. You know: did she ask to could have it could have been any day? What was what was Damian's alibi for that night was why there's

different versions, but I think the one that they settle on as that he was talking to some girls on the phone yeah there's a few things to back his alibi for that evening. He was with jason and they had gone. two jason's uncles house to cut the grass. While this is, firm by jason. It's also confirmed by jason's uncle now. This would have taken place well before the always had disappeared. The because Damien had said that at some point either his father or his mother had come and pick them up and taken him home on the way they stopped and they completed several aaron's before they got home. He is that he believes that he was picked up, probably about five. Thirty from jason's uncles house now want that kind of goes. Along with his story, though, is remember their running errants, where one of the airlines is too damien had been to several mental hospitals, he had heat and he was being treated for depression, so yet a prescription that need

to be picked up. Now we can't savour. We kaaba we can say with certainty that damien The person that picked up that proscription, however, the pharmacy did provide proof that that prescription was picked up that evening. Both now and in Damien. It said that any that they had, stopped on the way home to pick up this prescription. This was one of the errands that they were running, and this was this also goes with his mother's story and his father's story as well, and it's also kind of goes with jason story as well to get in your exactly right. Once Damien got home, he said he spent the evening at home on the phone with two girls from memphis tennessee yo play it well in the girls. Memphis tennessee would say. Yes, we spoke to damien that evening. What's another thing against it, well. There were some fibres that were found at the crime scene. There was a red fibre and there was a green fibre. Now police would be able

two days remember they searched all of these aspects, homes and trailers. and during the search, they were able to come up with a fiber that match the green fibre, there was found at the crime scene. They found this fiber in Damien trailer right. However, there is a side note there it it was. I dont know what the fibre was from? They dont specifically list what the fibre was from. However, it was mentioned that this would not be an article of clothing that would have worn by Damien. Did this come from? kind of green shirt I'm getting at is its main I've been a man shirt in may have been assured. That would have fit him at the time. Was waiting on a child to be born. Maybe it was a piece of childs clothing, so it for whatever reason that they don't specifically say where that fibre came. now they do say the fibre match. However, the defence would point out that you walk into any walmart and find a green

fiber that would match that fibre them or possible you walk into any of the victims homes. probably find a fiber thou match that. Well, that leads us to the red fibre right There was a red fibre that was found and this they ve when they searched jason Baldwin's trailer. They found a red fibre that match that fibre, again: this was from an article of clothing. That would probably have been warned by jason Baldwin. Do you know what they found tat red fibre from it was a red woman's bathrobe. It was his others bathrobe. So unless he wore the blunt his moms bathrobe down, I mean it could transfer it right right. These can transfer your exactly right. Captain. However, I mean it's not super likely and again this red fibre was again other fibre that you could find anything in walmart yeah go to the three victims homes and try to find that same fibre, see I'd

have more weight on that. If they could tell me, oh yeah, we went to the victim's houses and we couldn't find a match to this. The thing about jason Baldwin is other than jesse miss kelly's confession in that. And fibre. They had nothing linking jason baldwin to this crime rate and that's why they try them together. They tried them together and in the thing is, I think, by association, if you would have tried jason baldwin by himself without the confession, I dont know how you would get a guilty people. I don't know how you get a guilty verdict bah. I ah how they gotta guilty verdict anyways other than it came out later. Do you want to talk about that, of course, but real quick? They are both convicted. They are both found guilty and damien. Echols receives the death penalty, and jason Baldwin receives life imprisonment after the trial, the movie star

come out. We have documentaries coming out, we talked about the paradise lost movies. We talked about the west of memphis documentary. There's these books coming out, but after the Paradise loss, documentaries come out it cannot. It goes from a witch hunt to hey. Maybe These guys are not guilty of this crime and a bunch of celebrities. It involve people like johnny, depp, eddie, better, the dixie checks they start raising money for their defence. Now it's reported and here's what I hate about this report, ten to twenty million the big difference to me. So either way it was a lot of money that was raised. My craig Where does eddie vedder keep popping up in all afar, like every other case cover his, he said eventually, Eddie will be on our show, using the Brian shaffer case. Now he's in this one, yeah he's, maybe just a true crime fan eddie thanks for listening, takes realistic.

Yeah, I believe, Maryland manson was involved to, and you also had the who was the black flag. I don't love henry ruins of mail manson was involved. I think there is some pictures and stuff taken afterwards once they got out and then people start saying how much who is involved. I don't know how much he was well. Damien echoes said that he was dead, did manson was supporter financially as well as emotionally and whatever I didn't hear that. But but the reason being was that you know most people that he said- and I agree with him well and in the public eye Marilyn manson's, not a welcomed figure amongst the most people especially the religious groups I like under and welcome in the grand yeah, but the thing is Damien. Eccles is trying to prove that he's, not a sadness because he was facing. He was basically proven guilty, because it was speculated that he was into satan lady with airlines maryland things for the donation butter.

And so befriending. Somebody like maryland manson and bringing him to the forefront than it looks a little like. Maybe you are satanist not saying that marilla manson is but but it was agreed upon and I think it might have even been barely Manson's idea was that how body port you from behind the scenes, because me being involved, might might look bad for you, yeah timing salon assent, so guys get involved. now remains was involved. I said dixie checks did you. I include olive amid minded to spend her, but so again, in this money is being raised in what they're trying to do, and this could cause they're looking for evidence to point to the fact that they're innocent there. Also in four, you know little loopholes the system there they're looking for with, but there are also hiring investigators to start questioning. People non paradise os like we said that go after buyers and then, if you watch western memphis, they go after hobbs the problem with both of these

individuals as there's not a lotta evidence that links either one of these two there is a ton of speculation, there's a ton of character, and I want to call it character assassination because I cause, I think, some of these people just weird people, but it stop that attacks their care just like they did with Damien, which is not real evidence. Your exactly right, the exact what they did to davy an end jason and jesse, other than the confession of Jesse right. But but what happened to Jesse jason in Damien. I'm sorry is exactly what happened to mark buyers and then terry, hobbs and, first of all, what what did they have against mark buyers? Ok, they point, If did they? He has times of the evening that he's unaccounted for. Well, he talked to the police officer so much that night. I mean he's overhung police officers a lot. He had a lot of communication with police officers he's sk in police officers. What

I do is I dont know what to do in this point. Not only is he around police officers, but we just went through his timeline there's not enough time for him to have committed this crime into hide the bodies, the way that they were head. They. He was a and other people almost that entire evening yeah. He might have had ten minutes here, five minutes there by himself, but that's not the amount of time that it would have taken to conceal these bodies. Now they go after him because of a few different things. While there is a bite mark on stevie branch's face, they think it be a bite marked originally came out as a bell like buckle mark. They thought it was a belt buckle, and when I read the autopsy in from from the testimony of the medical examiners office in both of the trials, there was more than just that there there was not only a belt mark on one of the kids or what appeared. What could have been a belt mark on one of the kids? But there is also definitely a bite or could be a by on stevie branches face,

but they actually believed that there was more than one by on his face. There was always is one bite there was talked about. There was born that there was multiple the bull. There was multiple attacks to the face and several of them look like they could have been bites. Now one thing that made him buyers look He was, he had had his teeth removed or he had lost his teeth. We're uncertain about how he lost his teeth or why you didn't have teeth, or whatever people claim that, because he replaced his teeth, that that was to hide his guilt, what then also the bite mark. There is a bunch stuff on line. Terry hobbs has partials yet partials at the time so partials or where they like make canada dentures, but they connect to other teeth, and if you look at that in print that it matches hobbs now I've looked at home. It looks

Pretty convincing. The other problem is we have to bring into the staffing turtle thing. There's marks on that years knows mouth possibly face and those might be consistent with awe post mortem. I'd, buy the snapping turtle now. I should point out here, though, that I dont think that regardless of this was injuries that were posts, and by snapping turtles or if they were marks or bite marks or damage done to the face, bodies of the boys, while they were still alive. I don't really think that snapping for those being involved points to anybody being innocent, no, no, no, the the only thing that it might point to is the the damage that was done to christopher byers, where they had said that. Ah, you know the remove meant of the cast grace castration would be would be something that would be done in a satanic ritual

oh, that would be the only thing that might linked to somebody being innocent people also want to point out that mark buyers had the had moments where he was violent before the boys were killed. He had it. He had an instance where he had attacked his first wife in that was on police record. She said that he had threatened to kill her and that he was attacking her with a stun gun with like a zapper, and that was of police record, addressing its weapons yeah and ended. He had been violent after nice, I'll take the stun gun. Then his wife dies a mysterious death, yeah and he says that the universe that she died in bed with him and people have always wondered about that as well. I I don't find anything there. I don't see anything he. If there was something there the police will, I think what to do

when two that little more and I dont think that if you were view his history and militia buyers history there not the most healthy people and what I mean by that is at one point, Melissa had been on shoe been using, like Hell, winner some kind of strong drug and they were both. known to be on and off of pills and may be cocaine from time to time. So They had had a history of living hard, let's say, and so it doesn't surprise me that she didn't live to be superfluous. so I mean there's only some weird stuff with buyers, but nothing that really points Tom directly. Now, because here's the thing, I don't care. If somebody was you know it's, it's not a good thing to ever be violent, but I don't care if somebody has a record of being violent in the past or in the future. Is it all that matters is? Was he violent. Day was. He violent was a homicidal that day and the problem that I have with that. Is yes, he's

strange bird ban, there's no arguing that and it is a weird does he did fail. Polygraph test. Yes, did he pass a polygraph test? Yes, did he submit ever thing that they asked him to submit. Yes, he submitted blood hair fingerprints. They didn't find anything of his ever at the crime scene and further or we just went through a timeline, an episode to that does not while a window window of time to do any odd and also by you said he has to be homicidal that day and so then he would have to talk to police officers multiple times and to cover up that he spoke to the police more than anybody else during the search for these boys, and not only did he not only did he the first to call police. He had spoken to several police, officers when he was out searching for his boy and knowledge that he came home at eleven or twelve o clock at night and called the shit

his department and complained that they weren't doing everything that they could do to find his son in the other bright and, if you're guilty of it, you don't want to go, hey cops, cops, we need more cops and, furthermore, he was he was when they said that they were going to investigate the families, people that new the boys people did know the boys in either a gang or an or called, though the one per and out of all the families that they investigated and talk to more than anybody else was john mark buyers. He spoke to them often willingly and often may like to talk. Ok, What about the people that may or may not have known the boys? While this would be some of the miscellaneous people that the police had spoken to, mr bo django yeah, so the problem with the bo jingles restaurant, the so yeah rural quickly. Guy goes in the women's restroom he's bloody his muddy. He leave some evidence behind they collect it, and then they lose the evidence they can

currently lose the evidence and nothing nothing's known about this guy and unfortunately, before the police before Regina makes can arrive, This person is already wandered off according to the manager. I think something there, because there's some there's there's something about the timing of that. You know she arrives about eight thirty to go talk to the restaurant manager, which, Strange time for me, because I don't know The boys are last seen about six six, thirty, it's starting to dark around that time. It's a window of about two hours. Yeah and nobody knows who this person is he's not identified, and there was a african american hair found at the scene. Yes, sir, was, and that that has never been fully explained. but so it's it's very interesting inter resting. But it's a big question mark and then again we talked about the

ants there were. There are multiple sightings of these strange vans, one one black van was found, on an abandoned property. There was near the woods, and that was spotted that night. That was actually spotted by John, buyers and several other people. They had reported it to police There is also the strange white man was driving the white van something white man, The white face some reported a young man in a white band, some reported an old man and a and we got a black man than the buck fame. Well, there reported a black man in a white van with a illinois licence boy get it together, ok, but all at the end of the day to day. question mark and we wish we knew more about MR bowe jingles. Yet there were also the boys, the teenage boys, that reported seeing coming out of robin hood hills by dawn, or the sister of Michael more now be the one white male and to blackmail, and we don't know that that means anything and

Who knows? Who knows what time that was? The girl is she's about ten years old she unable to give an accurate time. While it could not be an accurate statement, it could have been three white boys or it could be done at three. Black boys were not really for sure. So that's a big question mark but then there is two gentlemen that left west of memphis, like ten days after the murders take place and the those boys head out to california. So they a track. Those boys down yeah, so the the laurie with those guys about four days after the bodies were found. Chris morgue and Brian HOLLAND, they work in the area they had prior drug offences. They were kind of on the police spotlight, let's say They were aware of these characters and these guys taken off and they had gone for california, and they arrested them in california. On may seventeen. Ninety ninety three, this is an

she sighed. Now they ve they pick them. Because they are concerned about. Why would they what they're going to refer to his feet? The area where, shortly after the murders, while they took off about, as we said four days after the bodies were found to picked up on the seventeenth and their given polygraph exams, now. They are asked similar questions that were mentioned, which they'll have to take these tests, but they do because they're cooperating and they're doing that. What's it called the survey get fbi survey and it's it's like. We had set the f b. I worked with the west bank, police came up with this questionnaire by their given him similar questions that they gave to Jesse miss kelly and that in his confession- and they come back and they say well you're lying and we ve seen this before right. We're gonna interrogates. You further well at point during the interrogation one of the boys

I say boys because these are pretty young man. I mean they're like eighteen nineteen years old and one from head said that he might have known one or several of the murdered boys, because he had previously driven and a ice cream truck and he had a rule in the neighborhood. So he makes sense, He said that he may have known one or the one or all of them in our last seen them yet after being talked for while they held them there for quite some time in question them for quite some time one of them had a drug and alcohol problem He had said that the at times he would even experience blackouts in memory lapses in he couldn't account for some of his time. At some point, this interview becomes very heated. and at some point he starts. He stands up on the chair and he's yelling at the officers and his exact statement is this

Do you want me to lie? You only a lie. You always say that I fucking kill those boys. Ok, maybe I killed him. He says something too that does not verbatim iron but he's jealous. I compassion he's? U right, he's yelling at these officers and in and to be honest with you. If I've read that his whole statement I wouldn't say that I would do the exact thing, but I put probably do something very similar. You know because I've always wondered when you see these people being interrogated in their being and they know their innocent. And yet these people, just poker, lemon poker adam poking Adam, I'm not saying that I would stand up and say yeah, I killed em. What I'm saying I could see myself getting angry and yet back and in getting verbal and getting hostile with these officer. While this actually happened to me, an eighth grade. So here's the story, the squirrel somebody throws a full pop can on open at this little girl

and it hits or in the head, and they said I did it so they pull me down to the police are not the place to the principal's office. And he's going to town on me right here he said you did does, she know you did holly holograph you at water, borgia and everything yeah, and I'm saying I didn't do this. I didn't do this. I couldn't fix about how I knew I mean one. I knew I didn't throw the can, but, but I knew for a fact that out I didn't do this again. halfway through him yelling at me. I realized I was even on the bus that day I missed the boss and my father had to take me to school. So now I'm screamin, I was even on the bus he's gone. Yes, you are, and I end up standing up, throw in that chair and then slamming the door on my way out and broke the door and then again in trouble for that. got suspended again school suspension but is bullshitting, was you're you're, falsely

accusing me of something, and I proved that I was even on the bus. I should get in trouble in the first place in that proves my boy. I've always thought that at some point I would be able to take it anymore and I would just can assert gelasimus yet yet, if, if you report in anywhere you, is always ask for an attorney always ask our they wanna. Let me I was asked in a low nigel. You are talking about these guys and california, so Here's the real story. This is the story that we get told right, but what what we're not told in what you will find one should dive into this particular part of the case is that these two guys didn't just get up and leave they received a ride from friends of theirs. They rode out there with several friends of theirs. That hit was traveling else. And dropped them off along the way they didn't have any intention of living out the rest of their lives in california or on the run. They plan to be California, for a few weeks or maybe a month, and they wanted to return back to emphasis airy right, so it seems like hey, were gone,

that way. If you want to visit your sister, which that's, who their visit in one that guy's sisters But hey we're gone out. That way, you wanna hits ride and not that day willingly submitted blood and urine samples as well as your prince and they they so they went along with the polygraph. They went along with the interview, but it went along with the questioning just like Damien, ackles and say symbol the only thing here is that, when they submitted this evidence to what could be evidence to west memphis police ultimately lost it, They didn't lose it now. They didn't lose it they. Just there, sir to be no, they didn't do anything with it our so they southern test, a good job, There's plenty of other miscellaneous people to that are involved in this case, but that its also like we said it's, it's just minutiae, catches, small little incidences of people that have done things in the past. The question you get about a paragraph worth of notes of an interview that was conducted but by police,

some of them submitted blood urine fingerprints some of them submitted to polygraph test none of that site. To have gone anywhere So now we have what we were left with. Terry hobbs he's a big question on more or less what terry hobbs in the west memphis: three that's what or down to so. What are the problems with terry hobbs? This comes about when two thousand and seven. If this comes about before the alford plea or yeah cause, they go after buyers, for and then, but they saw do intestine, like I said the money that was raised, they have investigators on the ground and I think that's where asserts coming from they finally are able to test dna on this hair sample. This hair sample is found in one of the shoelaces that is binding, Michael more tying the hand to the ankle. Now this is, it comes back in

does does not what does it do? It does eliminate Damien eccles, it doesn't match jesse miss kelly and it doesn't match. Jason Baldwin, however, is not inconsistent with that of the hair of terry hops, meaning it could be his hair. Zack match no there's different matches as far as dna goes, so it's just as far as act match. It says in the ball park and let's talk about this for a second, we have what or the percentages they come out and they say it's one and a half per cent of the population with me this hair, something ok, so the population at in west memphis at that of ninety. Ninety three is roughly between twenty five thousand and thirty thousand people. So that means is that hair. Just the people that live in that area would match terry hobbs, plus twice

Two wondered forty nine to two hundred and ninety nine other people rain storm in its suspicious though, but then you talk, not transfer, I mean one of the boys that was a victim was his steps sun and then the boys were known to play in his house. So again, that's something that can be true, Four were taught him out one hair. Well, That's also going under the assumption that Michael more was tied up by his own shoelaces one thing we're not able to figure out when we look at the evidence is what boy was tied up what boy shoelaces it just because you just because they were each tied up with shoelaces doesn't mean that they were tied up with their own you're. Talking about there, there's a chance, the that binding, Michael, more could have been the branches, chew lace, one, I would make a lot of sense. Why there's a hair of his step dad on his shoe

Now there is another problem, though, with terry hobbs, his friend David Jacobus. They find a hair of his on each free at the crime scene. Why remembered? But the timeline they both claim that they are in those words on the fifth looking for the boys. Exactly not only do they both claim it, but you so have John my mark buyers, who, whose very convinced that the two of them are probably guilty he also says- and now the yet, but he was also convinced that the west Memphis three were guilty at the beginning and he he does. Say in his statement to police at the time. This is a statement given in ninety ninety three that he had solitary hobbs, multiple times in the woods when he was searching. Terry house was searching as well and that he couldn't remember for certain, but here he might have had his friend with him right. This is the same friend that would be talking to them underneath the street, like,

so there is some explanation why those hairs or fibers would have been found there yeah then a lot of the other stuff. If you watch west of memphis, it's just a lot of stuff that dives into his character, and it seems like there's some shady stuff going on there. The problem is the sources and from its coming from PAM hobbs, which is now as ex wife, and they were together for almost ten years before she started making these claims? Yes and no point. ninety ninety three when she talks to police, does she ever say that terry hobbs is guilt if anything or suspects him or settings much bad about him. It's not till years and years and years later and now mentioned that I feel,

as for PAM hobbs, because she seems like somebody and she has the right to you- don't have to get over this tragedy, but she seems like somebody that it is going to be permanently scarred haunted this event that happened on may. Fifth, I changed thing and I dont think for the better. It will definitely ruined her life and you know she's tried to go on, but you can tell when she talks that it's it's with her every day. She carries it around with her, and you have to I mean it's not that carrying the bird and more than a lot lot of people would, and I I totally understand that has no way could be in that. No, it's just impossible put myself in her situation, it's nothing I've ever experienced, and I I guy can't believe that is something that you get over. I guess that at some point it something that maybe you have to just accept, but the

seems like the axe. Accusations that coming out about terry hobbs are so far after the fact that it is hard to believe give em so and then there's talk in light was a memphis, again character, stuff boiling heat. He shot one of her brothers, yeah yeah, yeah tits. Look good right now! There's a lot of that does doesn't good and well well, if we're gonna, bring that up, though we should probably tell a bit of the story of maybe why he shot the brother right. Well, there's all turkish in between. Heaven PAM and then she again the day on the fifth calls her family in her. You know, like we say terry hobbs is looking and PAM hobbs status is looking, so she calls after this altercation and added in the brother come out and the were known to. Canada harassed some other the female. Ah, but not the female

but what hand on the females whether the pay em comes from a big family, she's couple sisters, she's got a couple brothers and apparently, throughout the times, grown up in adulthood that some of the system, he had had problems with boyfriends or has other visitor, and when those poor, mom's came up. Sometimes dad was notified and sometimes dad showed up put the sons who were willing and able to confront and maybe attack the boyfriend or husband of of the sister of any other sister. So in now, this is what happened with terry hobbs and PAM hobbs. There's an altercation. According to him, she got physical first and then he got physical back, either away. It's not right on both and nobody should get physical with anybody, but a phone calls made to dad and then the brother comes out and terry. I dont know how exactly went down at that point, but I'm, but he kind of greets him with a shotgun or not a shotgun, but a europe of peace

or something y. He claims that he was attacked in whose defending himself down here is. What we do know is that there's Hey am side and then there's terry hot side and somewhere in the middle is the truth, and that's all we know so there's this Are they here say: there's laws, speculation or you have? Is this fibre? Not a fiber but a hare sample His timeline. Does you know them? or some spots in his time line there, and here's the problem, though, with his timely, you know, PAM gives a statement back in may of ninety three. Terry hobbs, gives no statement, that's not through any fault of his own. That's through the fall of the west, Memphis police. They never interview him. They came by I'll say, interviewed PAM and terry wasn't there that they, so they never bothered to get back around two interviewing terry now. Furthermore, when they interview pan It's a short interview. There is basically a couple sentences to describe what she says:

that she was doing and her husband were were doing that day and they just taken as fact, and they left it at that now so these were We were not coming out. There's not good reports coming there- is not a good, solid interview of pam, hobbs or terry hobbs until two thousand and seven and this these onto David jacoby as well he's not interviewed until two thousand and sad than their re interviewed, for, though, was was to Memphis documentary. Had then that, because of this, documentary go back and in our view, terry hobbs need to watch that whole Assai interrogated it's definitely a casual. In our view, I wouldn't call interrogation you can watch all that online. I think there's definitely some stuff that seems fishy. but at the end of the day, where's the evidence this this here that matches so many other people and as far as transferring goes, it makes a loss.

It's so again. Another person word, there's just are not done enough, pointing at him and then the stuff that are pointing at the things that they do point at them. Look where it's coming from what about the knife? Here's another knife that is brought into this case, yeah, the the the pocket knife. yeah, see branch was boys gap and so on. Four pocket knife and so PAM hobbs claims that he would have had that pocketknife on that day. So then, the boys are found and later on, like a year. So later she finds the knife and terry hobbs is like nightstand and yet she says that the stevie would not on anywhere without that knife? Here's a couple things about that. First of all, came home from school. Any left almost immediately to go out and play after coming home from school, so chance,

Are they didn't take the knife to school? Everybody knows you shouldn't carry a knife to scold, doesn't stop some boys, but but I'm guessing, he probably didn't. Have it with the many wasn't at home long enough to think about grabbing it again then terry hobbs. His story is that he was messing around with a knife and he just thought my boy doesn't need to have this knife he's messing around with it he's not being responsible with it in terry hobbs is not saying. I took the knife from him on may fifth, he saying I took it to them prior to make it right and that's something, again he's a step farther, so he's disciplining some you don't. I was a step farther before so I have had the same situation. One in my boys was mess around with a knife, and I had to say to him: hey: can you? Can you not do that? That's not responsible this is not a toy and I had to take it away and I put it into a little box and then one day my wife sees my ex wife.

Seize the knife and ah said. What's this, I had to explain the situation and its the same situation. terry hobbs. Another thing that I want to bring up is how the police acted shortly after finding the bar remember an episode one. We had said that all of the items all of the clothing that was reported to be on the persons of the missing boys, all of it was recovered with the adoption of a single sock and two pair of underwear rent. So so that's all that was was missing now later, this was days the bodies were found. Police went to the families and they had said. Could there have been anything else with these boys that we didn't find? Could there be anything that you could think of what Many of them have had a pocket knife wherein they specifically say pocketknife would any of em I've had a billfold any of them have a pin on their hat urbane on their short, the

listen. Why they're asking about these things is because they want to know if they pick somebody up or theirs, king somebody's home and they come across? these items. They found their person no items there there at one point the buyers family says that there bid did christopher may have carried out fold with him at one point, I believe more family says that Michael may have had a pin on his shirt or he may have had a I can out stuff exactly so there's a few things that are brought up, that they may have had none of the parents, able to say with certainty that that any other items that it that way, already located on any of those boys, PAM huh, never mentions this pocket knife debts. The scenes like it's always after that fact, you know it's after the fact analysis point the finger and so yeah is. It is hobbs a little fishy. Yes, we'll fishy, an with the buyer marks.

Tony. If you look up the bite marks and the partial he had a test looks I mean it does match. It's gone enough for me to say that he's guilty. I look keep looking into maybe you'll, find something. Maybe you'll get a confession. One day I dont know, but there is not enough for me to point to him saying hey this guy's guilty. That leaves us with the west Memphis three. Now we have, we all know that they took an alfred plea. What is that? That means that we are going to can they are going to say that they're guilty, while Nana they're there they're going to claim their innocence, but they're pleading guilty. Yes, and so the judge accepts that plea. This was in two thousand and eleven and Italy, after accepting their plea. He sends all three of them to eighteen years and seventy eight days right. The time served so

The reason why this came about was because of all this new him evidence that their uncovering the dna, and we have the guy on the jury. You wanna talk about real, quick. Yes, oh the jury form, was in charge of the jury. He's gonna lead all their little meetings that they have and the press no they have as their able to figure out by reviewing the notes that were taken by the jurors that at some point, somebody had brought up the confession that Jesse miss Kelly had given by an? If you remember a sane, the confession was not allowed to try jason or Damien. It was not allowed to be brought forth into the course of the day discussed in could not use that confession to weigh their guilt or innocence right. So when p, I saw these documentaries, which are not complete. It's not a bunch of facts. It's it's a lot of these documentaries or entertainment base, but

When you see there s an ego while how the hell did they find them guilty, there's not enough evidence. Well, when somebody saying there was a confession saying that these three boys did it That's probably why they were found guilty. So are they guilty? There? Are people come, and saying you know what they got off the ground pretty girl? Here's what's generous when their first arrested barnum hang on. And then also on their victims, free them free them. People go back and forth, and then they get a help. Now already once of right now that I already again and there's people william ramsay. Ah, he did a documentary called abomination. He talks a lot about the colt stuff Ghana loves stuff he's. Bringing up is a lotta hearsay and speculation. Here's one of the things- and this is very freaky, but talks about damien, eccles happiness bear it number his spirit number be in five. What month at these

in may, which is the fifth month. What day the fifth month on a full moon, that the softball law filled he's talking about murders. He says I killed three boys, I'm gonna kill two more, which would mean five, so go with this whole spirit, number or whatever, yes, low freak but our know how much it adds up it's it's again a lot of speculation and Damien echo. seems to liked her. Play are enormously devils advocate he kindly so independent. He likes to poke the bare right as what he likes to do, but but can but you, as you have said, we're trying to say, I believe, is it. That's whole spirit Prior to that whole spirit. Number thing is no different than convicting somebody because they have long hair, wear black clothes right. Are you listening metallica? So therefore you're a that's how it works. Is there anything? So what do you think the west memphis rear guilty? I dont think they are

I mean I can't say that a hundred percent, because his first statement does feels real, but everything that Jason Baldwin says feels real tomato might maybe God is this wrong completely involved when has always claimed innocence, and, furthermore, not only that win win the prosecution, didn't believe that the trial, the second trial, that of Damien Jason when they believe was going their way and when they lost the confession of jesse miss kelly, they went to jason Baldwin and offered him a bargain if they were going to, they were going to bargain and barter with him, and they were willing to get him a forty year sentence if he would testify against Damien.

Because while- and he also didn't wanna take thou alford, please cause he knew that once they took the plead that the state would then stop their investigation now. What I think my god was tellin me is that people fed jesse miss Kelly a little bit and his simple, so I think he'd believe some of it. So that's why I came off as authentic, but I don't. I just don't think that there's not enough for me to say that their guilty, there's not enough for me to say there are one hundred percent innocent either, but ah they won't be. They want first people that I want to die much into, and I do so, those your mom thoughts. I think Jesse simple and I believe what jason Baldwin says as far as Damien Echols, I think he says some weird stuff and pokes the bear like you are saying I I'm in your camp man I believe that there are there's a couple things, a point towards their

guilt and there's a lot of things at point to their innocence. I camp can't say that their innocent can't say that their guilty. What I can say is, I have a really, hard time believing that there was enough to try anybody here. I maybe you could try Jesse miss kelly, but once Confession was thrown out. There was no evidence, in my opinion, against Damien, our jason and further. for I believe that jason should have been tried separately. I believe he was only convicted because he was tried with Damien and avian was kit, convict on his bad name and his bad reputation. and then it was also convicted on you know certain for answers and when somebody is thirsty for knowledge, this is not something that we should. afraid of this is something that, especially in an eighteen year, old boy is becoming a young man by sir in for answers, and by searching for knowledge is how you gonna get there and then a million people that search for answers, but they were in some,

small minded closed minded town to get crucified for such and I have always thought that jason and jesse should have been tried as children. I understand that this is a heinous crime and horrible crime, but as far as the judicial systems, as I am concerned- yeah, I'm not weighing the crime here. What I'm weighing is the people that are on trial and the evidence against them. There wasn't much. There wasn't really anything at all and, I guess I would err on the side of caution that we're making a big mistake here and we would better would be better off to try them as juveniles than adults. They were both juveniles, and I mean J was sixteen and miss kelly was that might not be dealing with a full deck. Yeah- and I hope their effort doesn't stop that they're out. I know that their free idle. of their names cleared completely because they took that odd plead plea deal I'll. I know that

the public opinion with them. Can it goes back and forth guilty and assent. I always seems to be this ever change. Then these guys have the power saying that they need to or should or have to spend any more time they spent eighteen years in prison for something they pay We didn't do, but they have the power to keep getting real. This is insane is not enough that were added jail? we need answers on this case and its only going to come from pressure, but that requires the state to try somebody for this case and the problem with that is. They already have three people that are on the books guilty and have been convicted of nigh. I understand that born. I'm saying, as is right now, you got little sprinkles of evidence towards hobbs got sprinkled evidence towards buyers have a little bit

sprinkle of evidence towards MR jangled little little bit from west memphis? Three, that's not enough! We need more. We need we need something that you know makes us go all that someday. We can't dispute I'll go on record here and I believe John mark buyers got absolutely railroaded in this whole thing. I but that, yes, it is a strange, but there is some sprague sprinkles of avenant there's some tidbits yeah, there's a morsels and horses and it's it's. It's strange and it's a strange case. However, when again, when I'm want to keep going back to the time line of that night in that morning, there was just no time for him to do it. Whether you think he's Paypal bore not there was no time for him to do any of this, and I will go back. at every single time. I think he got absolutely railroaded. I think if the people that put together Paradise lost too, and if the author, that put together the devil's, not

I want to go on record here the devil's, not as a fantastic book. If you like this case, you should definitely remains recommended re, that's my recommended reading. However, I think that those two things railroaded buyers, and I think that if that that they're in the producers of that film would have spent enough? I am looking at his whereabouts that evening and one that was higher than I would have. They would never have made him a suspect they might never been, maybe even considered, and how much time did that waste? How how much time did people look into this guy when they? been looking into some of us any Terry hobbs, who is the more likely suspect because there are sometimes in his time line that would present somehow there's a little bit of holes. There's not big holes, though I would be expecting, but we do have gaps. We have that hair, and that I mean again, I think that's a transfer. thing that's what I believe. Not only that matches one point: one percent of the people in the area and everybody in the world and you're talking about you're talking about what a football field or to four

fields away from one of the most travelled free ways and in america who's this. That somebody didn't stop off at the blue, beacon and see these kids and do something terrible who's, this there was an a petty file or our lawns error in the neighborhood, in that they did something to these boys and in the african. American hair is still not explained in that was found. Damn on one of the bodies. found in the sheet wrapping the buyers boy now that case reminds me of o J. I mean we did the reports of that, but reminds me of oj because it so huge and are so much to dive into an there. So much out there some dis bull shit, there is a lot tons of facts on this way. You can find actual facts and actual evidence on this case, but I feel like I had a stronger, a pen opinion before we started this case and now at the end of it, I'm just not soup. Certain either way other than there

not much evidence to point towards anybody. I can. Point to anything that would point to somebody, but what I can point to is, I believe that, had they taken this investigation and done it properly, there was no reason too to assume that a gang or called or satanist were involved in this crime there was nothing that showed their at the seem to believe that, while I mean other than back fact that there's three victims and self its It's one murder. They have to control three victims. Exactly I get but what I'm getting at is it doesn't mean that your sworn into some gang or some call to your satan, is that they have to carry this out. It just means that you three or to screwed up individuals that our homicidal maniacs, that that we ve got the fight or one that's very clever, so they're my opinion, there is no reason for the investigation to take that route and, first of all, if they would have spent the the proper amount.

I am in taken the proper amount of notes and conducted the right interviews and collected the right amount of evidence from all of the family members of the victims. If they would have spent time on that than I, I really believe that we would have never discussed john mark buyers, would have never discuss terry hobbs because I believe that those people alive what the other family members would have been cleared and get go from this thing and we wouldn't have to sit around and argue about this right when the early regulate, because we don't know there's this holes there's holds a timeline but there's also just holes in the investigation, and I dont know This means that somebody that didn't know the boys committed the crime. What I'm getting at is, I don't believe the west Memphis three did it. I dont believe it than any other family members did it. I think this is somebody that is either unknown to the police or somebody that they had interviewed at some point in their investigate Yeah- and you told me,

about a week ago, which made me so mad at you. Dont know if this will ever be solved. I actually believe that it will never be solved in and the reason being is because of that Alfred play. I believe that the state of arkansas has no motivation to solve this case. This is off their books as far as our concern right, so we had to end on a big bang, wanna thank everybody for a great season two on more than upward to season. Three things are really going to big and great and fantastic in season. Three can't wait and eggs Sport were glad that we can put out to episodes this week. Yes, we are as much as it is me hang in the garage with you all night long. Will you kindly smelled thing in the ground. Well,

well next season be good, be kind and don't litter. That is why I won't do two shows. A cure,

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