On February 6th, 1973 in Detroit Michigan, drug dealer Ruben Bryant was shot dead. 21 year-old artist Ray Gray was convicted for the murder, the conviction based on a fixed line-up and no evidence. Raymond Gray is an internationally recognized artist. He is also in the 44th year of a life sentence for the 1973 murder of drug dealer Ruben Bryant. The state of Michigan has had in it's possession for over thirty of those years, an affidavit from one of the two hold-up men responsible for Bryant's murder, that exonerates Gray! And yet Michigan recently turned Gray down, yet again for sentence commutation. In 2007 Fred Rosen was looking to do a follow-up to one of his books and had the idea of interviewing lifers behind bars who had made something of their second chance. Also a film professor, Rosen recalled the 1960 film Convicts 4 starring Ben Gazzara as John Resko, a convicted murderer who became an artist behind bars. The art led to 'Reprieve' his autobiography that became that movie. Rosen started looking for someone like Resko and found Ray Gray in Muskegon Prison. After investigating Rosen realized he had found an innocent man. Not only had Gray been an artist before prison, he was a bout to go pro as a boxer, using the money he made from boxing to attend art school!Rosen knew getting an innocent man out of jail takes years, if you are lucky. If not...Rosen had a decison to make. Was he in-or out? 44 YEARS AND COUNTING: An Innocent Man in Prison-Ray Gray and Fred Rosen
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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To accept this call for us? You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Bck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Soufan Ski one thousand nine hundred and seventy three in Detroit Michigan Drug dealer, Ruben Bryant was shot dead. Twenty one year, old artist, Ray Gray, was convicted for the murder, the conviction based on a fixed line up and no evidence. Raymond
Ray is an internationally recognized artist. He is also in the 44th year of a life sentence for the nineteen. Seventy three murder of drug dealer, Ruben Bryant the stay Michigan has had in his possession for over thirty of those years, an affidavit from, One of the two hold that men responsible for Bryant's murder, exonerates gray, yet miss again recently turned grey down yet again for sentence computation computation in two thousand and seven Fred Rosen was looking to do a follow up to one of his books and had the idea of interviewing lifers behind bars. We made something of second chance. Also a film professor Rosen recalled the nineteen sixty film con six four starring Ben, because there is John Resco a convicted murder. Who became an artist behind bars. The art led to reprieve his autobiography. That became that movie rose and started for someone like rest going found. Ray Gray in Muskegon prison in Michigan after investigating rose and realized he had
found an innocent man. Not only great been an artist before prison. He was about to go pro as a boxer using the money he made from boxing to attend art school. Rosen New, getting an innocent man of the jail takes years. If you were lucky, if not Rosa. Had a chance to make had a decision to make. Was he in or out the Store featuring this evening, the story we're featuring this evening is forty four years and counting an innocent man in prison with my special guest from Muskegon prison, Ray Gray and author and journalist and filmmaker Fred, Rosen, Welcome Ray Gray and Fred Rosen to the program. Thank you, gentlemen. For joining the program. Hey debit call from Ray go to accept it inmate at the Michigan Department of Corrections, Muskegon Correctional Facility, if you
so you're being victimized or extorted by this prisoner. Please contact Gtl customer service at eighty five billion five hundred and forty six million six hundred and twenty eight thousand three hundred and twenty two accept. This call press zero to refuse. This call hang up or press one to prevent calls from this facility press six somebody needs to- zero. Your call was not accepted. Please try again later hello, hello, Dan. It's ray! No, it's Fred hello, Fred, sorry for the problem here with the prison in Michigan. And I know with the audience for that. No, just the audience on that one. Let me just explain that when he called in you have to press zero. I during your cell, you did, and it didn't come through yeah
No well will will try again he'll call again, and there was a problem when he just called, and just during answer that yeah yeah yeah, we'll just we'll we'll work it out when he calls back he's he's called back twice, told them again and will connect with the program. Welcome back to the program Fred, Thank you for coming on with this incredible story and also surviving hurricane Irma. Today, a Dan. It's always a pleasure to be with you. I truly appreciate that especially doing a program on this man, because this is the first time in my professionalize I've ever found an innocent man. Certainly, let's why Ray Gray is not connecting. We we all know- and he has an excellent site facebook. Agent also website free, Ray Gray, giving people
So a lot of information about what happened at this incre trial. I guess that he had or didn't have the convicted him and sent him to prison and continues to keep him incarcerated. Now for the forty four, year. Maybe you could tell us how again we just alluded to it and spoke briefly to it in the introduction how you got involved. Tell us what how you got convinced. Basically that this man was innocent, when you were looking at completely different situation, we talked about looking at life, people doing life who had made something of their second chance, and then you found Yeah yeah, it was it's funny. Thing. I if you start remembering things you know, and at the time
I didn't you know all I was thinking was well. I just wrote a book about serial killers, their parts of the grace of God. Let me go see if I could find some bad guys. You did something behind bars to make our lives better. So I started you know I said a couple letters down, but there a couple of emails and It was weird Dan I mean I gotta turn down from one of the Manson murders with his name. I can't remember he became a minister and uh. You told that text Watson. Yes, thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Oh there you go uh and yeah and you wouldn't talk to me said I already signed with another writer right. I got oh ok. Then I sent the letter to the Son of Sand David Berkowitz in a New York state prison. He he wrote me back he's not sorry, I'm too busy! I can't
what year. Ok, you got a life sentence, you're too busy to talk to somebody yeah. Well, I'm helping him up, I'm I'm! I'm probably not prisoners doing this and that I said ok can I that letter someplace and then I I don't remember you know. Suddenly I remembered John Resco. I remember this movie contracts for which it stuck with me. Since I was a kid and then I I essentially did a search in Google. Where I used search terms, homicide, killer, artists and eventually raised me making came up and here's what happened. I'm out that shots, website. You know anybody can do a website. You know even the Russians, so I got that in. I got that in and um. I I I start reading about the facts of the case.
And I contacted raised, wife all are, and I said look it looks to me like he's innocent, but if If I find out that you're calling me I'll burn you guys and she says we can take it investigate. Well, I read the court. A Trans. Barb now she's calling me on the other line. I read the court transcript. And I read the transcript. I read the police reports. And when I saw the ad David that Ray had gotten from I don't want to be actual hold up in which he actually said. He was part of this thing with uh rug, dealer Ruben brand diarrhea, nothing. Oh my god. I've got an innocent man, you know, plus the trial had stuff in it that was signed, sticks
I mean a trial in the United States is a criminal trial. Actually criminal or civil. You supposed to have discovery first, he could have discovering that is a cool clear constitutional violation, and he had a first time, neophyte attorney, who won? Who is deceased, and I We don't care. This guy was a moron, so when I put it all together- and I realized the jilted girlfriend was involved with this- and not to mention racism. I realize they found an innocent man. For those people that don't know we're talking about his ex girlfriend going to this Bryant's house for drugs, right Minutes before there's a home invasion.
When right dust clears right right, let me go ahead. No correct what happens ray is, at his house Ann, the girlfriend most to the house and the with with these two guys- and she just wants to get some error when which Ray would have absolutely no idea where it is because Ray is a an athlete he. He was about to turn professional as a boxer and he's going to use the money made from boxing too find is is clear as an artist and study, art and so forth, So he had no motive, no means no opportunity. He had alibi witnesses um And she comes over and says: hey these in my buddy's want to get her way and then she takes mode ripping client's apartment and then the whole of the curse hang on Fred, but see we got Ray Gray here connecting again from Muskegon prison. If you feel
you are being victimized or extorted by this prisoner. Please contact Gtl customer service at eighty five billion five hundred and forty six million six hundred and twenty eight thousand three hundred and twenty two accept. This call press zero to refuse. This call hang up or press one to prevent calls from this facility press six, your call was not accepted. Please try again later well, Fred, that's what we get, but I did the prompts properly and they said try again later we're having problems getting ray great connected here from Muskegon prison to be able to I can hardly like. Maybe I can get him connected done to my phone here. Well, let's just continue with the in view and see if we can solve it on here, because the into option will be we we're talking about the girlfriend and the drugs.
You were talking about the alibi he had me again. He wouldn't have had anything to do with heroin, but this is an ex girlfriend at this point. This is now at his current girlfriend as well to be. Now, this is getting back straight on this yeah. This is an ex girlfriend who actually singers sent to the cops. What happens is according to the records of the case, the the girl friend goes to the to the to the drug dealers apartment with their two bodies. She goes up alone. There were two women up stairs and a couple of kids in that apartment with Drug dealer: ok, so they drew and uhm um and and and so so what happens is very slow
the door, the then the door depending upon which person you talk. Who was in that room either. Girlfriend open starts to open the door or the you guys break. They are indeed her. Two buddy, ok and they have been identified. Ok, one of them hi ron you and uh the other guy is is, is is Charlie. Charlie later will what happens is Ray is home at the time
This all occurs uh. Eventually, there is a fight between the drug dealer, who's being held at Bay with the gun and one of the shorter of the two hold up men. Who is the lead with rain and grey? Well guess: what grade was almost practically a professional boxer? He would have taken out with one punch instead, they tussle and, however, that the government is probably probably Charlie. He shoots. Ok, anyway long story short, the drug dealer guys you eventually the cops come and all that stuff Sun goes downtown with that statement and then example off at her boyfriends house that evening, after getting the statement and the boyfriend, not the
boyfriend, the exploit, Sunray, gray and grey, it's like what's going on and she explains what happened once he said he said well, who were the two guys were broken with a two guys. You were here with the same uh, She would want her and what happens from that tonight is the girlfriend, that without having any evidence, better restroom grade for the motor, that's the whole sport. No, no, not one piece of evidence. I don't even search it out. They don't do nothing great honey. I didn't do it now an interesting twist in this immediately, though Michael Bryant, the brother of RU,.
Riot is a newly minted Detroit Police cadet. So it said that he embarked on a mission to Avengers brothers, murder and there is a right on the wet on Raymond grave site. He talks about the confrontation he has the conversation. He has Michael Bryant over this murder and clearly what Michael Bryant's intent is. So maybe you can just give us a briefing on what that conversation was super warm great forty now they don't have it E. Is I didn't? Do it. Well. You gotta have corroborated that corroborating evidence. So one of its to do that is a lineup great, taking two two greatest take into a cell and
let it section of the links on the jail and or not the Detroit. What won't cut it come is Michael Bryant, who does he say, who's deceased brother, please connect, and he says that there's going to be a line up in a race that grace is well that's great because I'll be cleared the crisis, I don't think so, laugh at him and what happens? Is there? The first thing the cops do, and this is like corrupt cops too. They did a a throwdown which is where you take sharks and down in front of the witness. Instead, so they sent it to the witness the Pelican eight it through the through the man, and I were in the it the other two women. Do you see the bad guy here who shot? with Bryant, and only one of the pictures is of with a flourish, Manchu mustache, we're in hairstyle great spot question from the great no words,
yeah. That doesn't look like any of the other guys. It's just it's just a diploid, the cop series, corrupt cops to get somebody identifiable. The next thing is, it is an actual wind up. Just let you watch and not you know warm order, it and single gray is, is the shore Skype. Here he was a featherweight box. There are all these other guys are big and he's learning right in the few minutes. You're, not special, guess what two women say. Oh he looked, it looks like he's the one. Did they not even positive but looks like he's the one and, on the basis of that. He even values and within a month or six weeks or so, and he goes to trial, and it's stupid. Charlie decides to go for a bench trial with the judge. It's like twelve citizen in what will become crucial in terms of what happen.
You also talk about it week. We did, you did mention it, but but I think we got to reinforce this lack of evidence. There is, you said, no murder weapon found. There was no search of his home. He responded in search of his home. There is no murder weapon found that there is another very important point: the the Something here in the Us Cold Lady issues, which means that, when you're going to trial, you can't keep anything behind your back. Ok, well, one of Brady Issues was that they need anything after witnesses said that one of the bad guys have gone into the bed. Yeah and touch the jail with management, took my allergy well, that sure had been dusted for prints and yes, that Gregory Transformer
Now, whether or not it's too cold up man had the transonic is another story. That is not clear, but we know for a fact hungry and that you're not miniature. It kept it behind her back until two thousand and stuff. If that had been presented at the time of the trial, the Judge Mathis City is not there, some reasonable doubt that did not. So now you got, you got a lot of stuff going down. You know you got questionable id. You got uh? You know you, you said you got a questionable id you've got. You got your number when the cops be arrested, another one.
Hello mobile along with it all well, we know. Basically, we can set something along with the world block by using a different chance on They put training for clubs, you see us phone is no evidence whatsoever, and then they never check this part and I'm not gonna get no motive is not affinity. It is one of the biggest the biggest massage justice I'd ever. Certainly you talk about trial as way as well that the Michael Bryant, the some of the people that didn't weren't, able to identify, Ray Gray whatsoever suddenly at trial, were able to identify him positively. So what's Ray gray and supporters contend is that There was some coaching in there by the police
or Michael Bryant, or both in so that that testimony became much different from the beginning to the time it were ready for trial. Isn't that true were very possible yeah, very, very possible and Center for size enough that this is a bench trial. So, even though Ray has a half a dozen witnesses who said he was home at the time. For some reason, the judge decides not to believe that you know it doesn't explain her, explains it. No, no, not, and and and just find him guilty and it it does say at the time when the sentences him, the name, was too Judge Irving Rabbit. She does say that he wishes that he didn't have to give them the book. You know to the limit, which was life because you didn't think you deserved it, but he he did it anyway, and so
you know it. You know, I think the crime was called felony murder. You know every state calls it differently, but essentially it it it. You know it's it's a murder, one conviction, you know what I mean, and it happens in michigan- is a very, very conservative state. It's very very difficult. I mean to. To get the truth out when you were victimized by the criminal justice system is Raymond Gray has been. Immediately after this decision, I know it's now Forty four years and things like innocence projects, forty four years ago, I mean I'm not up on the story on this, but I would think that the momentum from the innocence projects throughout the
United States has been more recent in forty four years. I would think yes, but with those trials with those apart made those appeal trials. Potentially there is uh an opportunity, the review, and there are people that could line up find Ray gray to support him and his bid to have for a successful appeal and retrial. Immediately after this trial, what was that effort? What was that like or not like great question? I I've asked my that question to immediately after a stop you know one and going forward were immediately after the trial. There was hello. There were a couple of sorry recorder couple of local appeals for you. It all costs money.
You know, and eventually, though, now it all costs money, but eventually what happened was uh. Those first couple of attempts failed, of course, that's number one, I can't find anybody that. I would term a really too lawyer on on on this case you know what I mean I wore the loitering wasn't the best in the world, but he did get managed to get a a couple of people to work. On appeals, and what happened was I guess it would be
sometime in the late 70s early yet late, 70s. What changes is this rain needs Warren heart, in the form of it, she's an art teacher behind bars and they start to work together. So now He's got somebody behind him. One hundred and ten percent. Leg, and so they get an attorney and they start working on a social and while this is going on- and this is about Tools, seven years after Ray gonna behind the walls. Charlie Matthews, one of the alleged holdup men comes behind bars in the prison and he said he's at Ray. Season in the yard just among Here- because they think I'm you Charlie agrees to give him an apfa David say: But that he is one of the holder man, not that he killed group and bright one of the hold on
aren't you just a minute after and that the attorney raise a at the time and bar pray going to court with judge rabbits, the same trial judge that convicted ready and they they want to introduce this new evidence and the court NASH Use on the stand in Massachusetts, then courtship by the district attorney that if he Where is he cops to crime like participating in a murder he's going to get prosecuted to the fullest limits of the law? and will not give him immunity. So Matthews keeps his mouth shut, the aft if it doesn't get introduced as evidence and re, goes back to jail. That's what happened g
sounds sort of convenient. Doesn't it nice nice way to cover up the truth? Well, it does seem to be to solve this problem and and in effect, this is a fraction of that new evidence, and it's also again just the refusal to look at something once the courts have made that conviction in their own will say they hood for lack of better term. They don't want somebody overturning something, and seeing this glaring example of injustice? Exactly now you talked about you talked about this apfa David from Charlie Matthews, so this is very powerful. Does this apfa David in this effort lead to
Any other effort in any other supporters coming forward out, for he had a great great now. Let me answer your call. You know if this was anybody else, I I couch what I say, but when I'm on your show Dan, I just say it the way it is okay. And and and honestly you know, I mean 'cause. That's the way to go, I'm not you know. I certainly don't want to offend anybody, but what happened was ok I'll, just tell you what happened was some somebody got involved play one point. Who is in journalist in Michigan a a lawyer? Call pro bono point I'm on the case. So in other words we're talking about something it happened in seven years ago. Eight years ago,.
And so what happens is this? But I I was under the impression that one when I was told that this individual was raised lawyer, so so foolish me. I always think that somebody's somebody order. You signed a contract rate, never signed a contract. Okay. I just assume that this was a pro Boehner attorney it turned out. This person was just basically uh uh. You know somebody will, can you know it was? It was a high priced attorney with a big public profile. It was what was looking too Defeat this well, that happened quite frankly on more than one occasion, attorneys would get involved. Pro bono they'd stay on for five minutes and then they were offered five. The mission, the Michigan Innocence project at the University of Michigan took a briefcase about old, but a year and a half ago, okay, now the most recent of his projects, as you know,
then they rely on DNA. Raise cases got nothing to do with DNA. It's old flashlight work. Well so, but the Michigan Innocence project is not being able to you know it. You know so you know so law school and you know you get the students involved and so forth and so on and. Eventually they looked into it and they would not take care hello. What I heard through through reliable second party, was that they felt it was too complicated and too old Right now now I don't understand that Bih cause. Last time I looked, you know yes, gotta, be constitutional limitations. Just like this crown limit nations on when you can file document but legally, but this guy
be something not to mention the fact that what kind of we'll just the system allows an innocent man, the strange ale one is evidence, exculpatory evidence to prove he didn't. Do it sure you know. So it's it's! It's it's good. You know, and, and the frustrating part is that. That heat Ray didn't have a parole hearing in two thousand ten. This is the first time I met Ray Grant. Person are never in in shackles and handcuffs. We were in a prison in Michigan the the Parole board individual conducting the hearing chose not to concentrate on what he was supposed to. According the regulations, which was what Ray would do when he got out of jail, and so
for it. You know where he live. What he do in all that stuff was taken care of he be painting for God. Sakes is paintings again. All is just people wanted to thank for money. Well, this guy starts didn't like the fact that the fact that great gray has done something that very few people well Reg. He refuses to say that he thought he did it very great city did a long time ago, B, l but part of that yeah, the of the of the poor for all commutation process. Is the person taking responsibility for their cart? What are you could respond billing for crap, I thought you didn't do ray. Will admit that he did something wrong when he didn't go, and this particular individual with the Parole board past the gate between I'm of verbally, to the point that I should have stood up and said something, and I didn't even
abusing him verbally screaming at the guy. I mean it was unbelievable. You know! Well, I actually actually in retrospect you know- and this is you know two thousand and ten- is the people had cameras, you know phone cameras but for some reason nobody shot. I don't remember what happened. I don't remember. If we checked our cameras at the door or whatever it might you know, but it was. It was a very difficult situation and course they didn't give him parole and that's that's basically, you know he came up for parole again a couple of months ago they turned down, they didn't even have a hearing. This turn him down. You know they. They passion, note into his cell wow, What did they turn them down? What were the grounds this time. Same thing, they don't know they, don't they don't have to keep the grounds. There's no gr.
Yes, if you say when I'm interested we're, not gonna even consider you buddy, that's basically what they said, and you know within the you know the the I think there's a lot of people that know Ray is innocent. Okay within the system, but you know, but they there's nothing. They can do about it Unless up somebody in the parole board, would they would do the right thing? You know, but we're talking about a state that poisons its own citizens in Flint MI with its with its river water. So you know we're talking. You know there this it was a lot of stuff going on here politically that influences the decision, whether to release it fell. Like rate gray or not. Certainly you talk politically what about the addition to Governor Rick Snyder State of Michigan. That was not that long ago. What about that bid to have a petition to Governor Rick Snyder.
Well, we have an online petition to free rate gray. What will you know and it it went to so the governor and that they didn't care they just actually went to the it went to the gun and it also went to the parole board. They basically just set date, knowledge, three seat, and that was all they did and then they just turn this down. And there's been. It never been an acknowledgement from the governor receiving it. So it's it's. You know it's still there I mean if you, you know that the best way to get. Ray out is to pursue a legal case. If we could find an attorney that would work pro bono, I think we could. We could proceed very quickly, quite frankly, especially with the support of good people. Like you. You talk about getting the necessary money and we did talk about how important to this,
story, because it led you to Ray Gray. Is your work of rape ray and there is yes? A little bit of the artwork on the show description of this for people to he later after they listen to it before they. Listen to this will see that or now they'll know that that's what that is, and he has been raising money and making money from art forever well. Well, maybe we can talk about that a little bit later, but we want to talk about his art as well and how important that is in somehow surviving the roller coaster ride of emotions, but also the the depths of despair of what four? four years, yeah it to a man yeah. I can tell yeah he's he's told me about that. I can. Maybe I should talk about sure
I I seem to be in the situation of of acts of speaking for him today and it's Not this, not unusual for Maine uh, I'm not totally surprised. There was a difficulty with the colon, maybe, but as far as the rays work raise explained to me that pretty person prison, you know like his first, we gotta tv, you know I'm like excuse me, you got a tv, she buddy, you got cable, they charge you so um and he's got a tv and he paints in his cell. And what- and I would say will pass what's going on Here- is that his work, um, you know is work,
helps him cope with. This is to me it's unbelievable, because if it was me, I would have succumbed to depression long ago want to grow all right. So I just can't believe you know how he's maintains his sanity with everything that's going on you know, but by painting it helps him stay connected. That to him is the thing more than anything else that you know helps you get through the night. Actually, if I can find it here, I can even read your quote but actually helps in Fisher tonight. You know what I mean. And he's always wanted to be a painter, and
Again, that's why the whole it's There is no. No, there is no. It was no motive for what he did it. That's what I was trying to get through there was no motive for what he did You know, here's a guy wants to you know, become become an order and a professional fighter and all that stuff. Here's what he says he says I in Rr in an article for the line up the artist helped me in many ways, for it allows me to express some of my deepest their feelings and, on another level, created a world much different from this one, a form of escape. This am, I suppose, however, I try to address world events also despi where I'm at to still try and be aware of. What's going on in the war
large to that some of my workers on peoples, walls that I don't even know some in other countries, good feeling and that's by way of my heart five, and that that way of my heart, I was able to meet and marry my barb on samples that pretty eloquent absolutely. We're going to use their friend is just the sorry Fred diseases has a moment to stop about and talk about the sponsor of our program tonight Brooklyn and we're going to come right back. And talk about Ray Gray, some of his art and the fight to free Ray gray. Now my wife and I just received our beautiful Brooklyn Queen size, LUX queen size sheets, and if a cover, this is a four hundred Eighty thread count. They call it locks, which is a course short form from luxurious and sir
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R, o okay l, I n e n dot com, promo code, murder Brooklyn in these are the best seats ever server interrupting you Fred. Let's talk now about more about Ray Gray and his artwork. We didn't really describe. I wanted to ask you what you felt and you thought, given the circumstances and the predicament. The tray gray been in for all these years. What were you surprised at the artwork of Ray gray? Yes, I was because I didn't know what to expect. I thought It was just going to be one of those sensationalistic Condit kind of things, dude, some dude behind bars. You know drawers little bit, you know I was expecting the level of artistic prayer,
cation, not to mention professional. I I I just wasn't expecting it plus. I you know what gets me about this stuff, the is particularly some of his later stuff he's really Funny- and you know he's got a couple of you know: he's got a couple of paintings. You know, what do you call it? Spacemen are going up in space, you know, and- and you know when I hear they land until planet in the in the aliens got. You know her. We don't want aliens here. You know I mean again. There is a good example of rains. You know key bring up with. I mean you know that you know that that is just to the television but the level of professionalism. The level of.
Feeling, you know, I'm not I'm not a book, I'm I'm not a. You know an art person, I mean I, I don't know what that well but I tend to go more with impressionistic stuff, but. He he gets a lot of emotion into what he does. Thank God. You know and yeah. I gotta wonder just like John Resco. What would happen if Raymond Gray got the opportunity paint in a raid. Studio help it doesn't, could be a studio. Even he's got an apartment with his wife. You know, there's a separate room. You can paint in. You know He's gotten offers to do. Eastern book covers it covers, for me, he's he's, obviously, a portraitist, etcetera, etcetera.
What how how can't you know that that's, of course, the the the conundrum which is it's not just the fact that the guys talented, but it's the fact that he's talented and he's innocent. Can you put those two things together and how powerful that beat in a civilian population. If you, if you wish out you'd, be able to work with. Not only would he be able to do with art he'd be able to work with disadvantaged you. You know things like that You see what I'm saying and and and so the work it and by the way, he's also one of his friends is bill? Messner low, and I'm mentioning this because he's awesome there's? Also a friend of mine and bill just want finger award from the car
from comic con. It's a big award and the reason is now just to let viewers listeners in Dan and I are both Marvel fans well Bill Messner. Loebs wrote wonder woman during the 1980s, and so he is going to try and get they also want to do in comic books. So there's a lot of stuff that rate could be doing is he was out and he's able to adapt into these various areas. Why I mention this as well as because we talked about the again the importance of hooray, Ray Gray, and hooray great is, and that is that he is an artist and we talk About raising money, the.
Incredible amount of money that you always need for better and better lawyers to try to appeal this, which cost even more money than probably originally. Obviously it would have cost had he had the right representation. So one way of supporting this man is: there is no book as of yet above chronicling his story, but there is fantastic art for people to look at and the is the best way to support him as a as a human being period. Isn't it you're not you're necessary action. Consider yeah yeah and you know, and if someone were interested in buying something of raised, you know you know just go online and you can contact me through Facebook or any of the you know you know, contact me through your show, what or it might be. You know the Facebook Agter a great. You know
and yeah. That's a great idea! Honestly. I hadn't even thought of it, because you know it's it's not like the guy. Taking a huge amount of money and also this also issues of involved in what he you know when you're a prisoner, you can't see you know you got to put it all through somebody else, you're not supposed to make money, you know so you have to you know you have to set things up differently. We at least at least in Michigan. You do, but it would be wonderful. People could help support in that way. Also, if anybody has a recommendation for a Michigan attorney. You know, because we've got a situation here where we're ready to go, but we just we just don't have the bread.
It's incredible to to realize it at twenty one or twenty two years old, Ray Gray, was imprisoned, so his entire for life in forty four years and why I say this too is is that if you look at just a few, examples of his artwork? It's so optimistic, it's bright! It's positive. Does it be unique style, but it also is quite interesting to see what exudes from this man, despite that forty four years of barbarity, basically you, no matter how good prison can be or has been for him. It's no walk in the park, forty four years, your entire life in prison. He said that so eloquently Dan. I couldn't say it any better You know I'm so close to this I mean I, I guess, is it
and clear you know Ray has become a very close friend of mine as his wife bar pads. It's you know, it's just what's happen. And you know so for me: it's it's trying to get my friend out of jail, you know now, if you're lucky and you know, of course you know I'm about, but you know, but you know it's it. Then it's been, you know it look for been. You know, there's an option down, so we had. We actually had a gp show those interested in doing something with him recently and he was going to be the pilot episodes of the tv show, and it was going to be on a major network who's going to be her kind thing was an idea with somebody else. And the reason that they wouldn't do it to be state of Michigan does not allow in on camera interviews right,
I needed the on camera interview for the for the footage for the they couldn't you know so so you know this is not the only state, but you see that you know the difficulties here. You know not to mention affected You know people listening to me instead of rate because of the difficulty in getting connected from prison yeah, it seems pretty simple when it's a press, zero and the press. Zero doesn't work so yeah again, we don't know, we don't know, you know what they might. They might have known this the fact that we're doing this interview today, you know there. They were where through emails, because I have to let me know what the phone number list colon. So it it sure you're old. If he is very easy to some, ready to mess up a phone line or something like that, I'm not saying they did it. I don't have any evidence of that. You know I'm I'm not one of those people that you know uh.
You know I I promise I didn't bug trump tower. I didn't do it, you know, but but but you know, this thing is seriously the thing is you know just like I, when you're on the phone talking to him, I have to be careful because I'm the yeah, I'm the same as I am with you in any place else. You know I'll look around and one day I said to him because he's also a Marvel fan ice. Hey Ray, I'm going to get spidey to pull out the bars. And then he reminded me Fred, be careful what you say: yeah hi, I'm not I'm! Not I'm not even at this that at one point We're nuts about this stuff, I attachment to an email- and it was a picture of of of Steve Rogers.
Captain America of you know from me with a you know. It was from the movie, you know with Chris Evans sure they will they wouldn't give it to one excuse me, while there's a combination for Michigan prison. You won't give a prisoner a picture of Captain America. She do. I have to get them ready for you so in when we talk about. Raise life, you talked about Barb coming in his life, an making his wife completely different, changing his life for tell us a little bit more about this relationship and what
is evolved from and into today what one! Well, what what the relationship has evolved into today sure! Well, what happened was. She you're all got involved at a point where it was. It was actually at that point. She Essentially, assisting be a maybe they had at the time she was actually acting. His paralegal and I'll. Tell you what what's well these two people really love each other, okay and and are devoted to each other and but
what happened over the years. You know the time they got married behind bars and uh. Teen. Eighty eight one to the present. Is whatever money that bar pad went down out the window with with these it. You know and then the hardest part about all this is the emotional and physical cost on her sure she is had now look I don't have to, You, and, and certainly your the listeners genetics in the most important thing when it comes to our health. She she's had a couple of strokes and she's recovering.
But she was in an auto accident about a year ago, which we got slammed by tractor trailer. Now what I'm getting at is that any, but these things can happen to anybody. Ok, but I I But when you have a certain momentum going in terms so husband in prison and every time something good is about to happen. Something bad happened. You know it's almost like one thing leads to another, you know, and so she's been under a tremendous amount of stress, she doesn't oh she'll ever spend a day with her husband outside of prison. You know she she she she hopes, you know, but she doesn't know, and it's it's. You know it's hard to keep
Your poupee going for so many years when keeps it destroyed by destroyed by by the system. It may be apathy, I don't know any other way of pudding it. You know there's lot of apathy, your tan, you know when I tell people of those guys in jail for forty for years. Usually their mouth is just open. They can't relate to the amount of time. Is there a criticism you've you talked about it, then maybe I could sense it that that wrongful conviction or innocence projects passed on this, usually, even though it seems at a glance to be the kind of case that they long for again, there's no dna, our generation, but again today it is pretty accepted that there can be for identification. There can be tunnel vision, correct the kind
you know there can be police corruption where people might not have believed that before we were certainly able to consider that now identification procedure suppressed evidence and there certainly suppressed evidence with the fingerprints failure to investigate other sex, a suspect. But this is like a one hundred and one on what a wrongful conviction is based on other than the dna, but everything else can be mean today as the ammunition for another trial for a an exoneration. Exactly why it seems to me that that should be. That should be a possibility, but yeah absolutely
It simply you know, and and but if you would CHE, you know what us do. You know what I'm what a night I looked at a couple of these. You know lawyers that the it would take. Somebody that's committed. Okay, somebody that's committed and that's doing it for the right reasons not be cause. It's going to make reputation that much bigger they're going to get on the the Lok Evening news you know in their town. You know what I mean so, but it would take something like that. Point. I even looked into uh possibility of there being something federal uh you know, but the but there's nothing federal here you know so it's gotta be the only remedies can be legal and with the state. You know and there's something else too. You know which is
and I'm sure it's got to be on the minds of these bureaucrats. Nine one from the east things switches. Look if somebody is little, you know if he didn't do it, which he didn't do it and he gets out. Ok. What about the possibility that he fight, I'll say: a multi billion dollar lawsuit state knows that yeah, you know state knows then Ray doesn't about that. You know you don't care about that. When is the state case, came to right now and said: hey, look I'll, tell you! I will let you out, but you gotta sign off on a suit each sign off on. It would be crazy not to how much, how much is it? How much is a day Save your life, three works for God, sakes. So. Yeah the world? What about Governor Rick Snyder in
at face value or what you know about Rick Snyder in his politics you That he didn't want to look at this. Is there a chance of another governor likelihood soon? Is there did Snyder look like the kind of guy that could be approachable with this or what he was just the guy. That was a governor. Tell us a little bit about that. I feel like you're Anderson Cooper and I'm on I'm on tv. On that one up, you know we're going to talk politics, ok, sure! Well, brick, Snyder is if there is a republican conservative, and everybody? No SIRI is and right now he's under the gun, because the situation with the young in the in the river water in Flint that sort of the key some are the arguments being made legally. That state is responsible for the search server. Okay, I looked it up okay last governor before this dude was
Jennifer Granholm? Who is a Democrat so if, if Granholm were in office, yes, we have, we have a shot. I sent, with this guy. No, I don't think we have much of a shot, except for the fact that he gets a tremendous amount of good public relations. If, if he lets the sky, you know if you signed up for the consultation and whoever governor? Is they all signed off? My commutation that the same you know that's how it works so so, what do I think that this guy would do that readily? No, I don't think he it would readily? I think that somebody would have to sit down and talk with, because right You know he's been more of a you much or conservative in his approach, and it's a shame because raised looking only wife are in this kind of situation is a whole bunch of others. You know, but
you know raise the only one that I know and uh. Now we have so we haven't been able to get any traction on that level. Yet why, with the. The particulars the way they are he's in art school he's going to be a pro boxer. Okay, here's the ex ex girlfriend still associating with people that are doing heroin. Somebody might say, but well again with time and with people understanding. Why can't it right, it looks as innocent as ray. Have a movie maker have an innocence project have a somebody supporting this guy. I mean it's. One of those cases that looks at face value is
Much more promising- or he is much more innocent than some of the people that they've had somebody backing them in their attempt to have their convictions overturned. Well, one of the things that I learned along time ago about true crime Dan Truman editor is that people wanted to be. People want to know the system where they don't want to know it doesn't your than an innocent man go to jail so that. And they want an end to, and there is right now there is no landing. So therefore, you know nobody's gonna hire me to write a book. You know and expose all this stuff. Ok, I mean that would be very helpful, but you know I'm not here to shill for book, but but the point is that uh, you know you, you know you you
edition where you got a you've state. That's very conservative. You've got a governor, that's very conservative, okay, um. As far as getting the word out. To the media, I tried, I mean that's, thank God. That's why you know we're talking today, I certainly got a lot of contacts in the movie business, but again you know one of the reasons that people shy away from something like this is because it's not adjudicated and when it's not a judicated and the fact is, there is still one one of the guys involved as I could still alive. Well, people are afraid of lawsuits. You know, They're afraid of lawsuits, especially in the movie business and the publishing So you know it, so that's the reason I I think that some people, you know the
will stayed away plus they don't know anything about it. I haven't you know transaction I've talked to a lot of you know for some reason, like I said I think people want to know more, that the system works and then it doesn't work plus there's something else. I guess now look we talk about it, which is, if you going to, if you going if you, if, if you find a penny innocent person and innocent. You got to make a decision. Are you? When? Are you out? That's what I have to do and I knew that I was going to be in for a long time, but that's a very that's most people don't want to do that You know because she ran for a long you're in for a long time. You know, but you know there's just no way that I could walk away and I you know I hope you know most people will feel that way. You talk about the
The threat of compensation by Ray Gray being possibly a factor in in as well as the state not- being too interested in open up this huge can of worms and that was evidence to when I had Chad Keller on, talked about making a murderer in the between keys again, you could just look at it and say, which is what a incredible convenient coincidence, what a lucky stroke for the state that he just happened to be on the verge of that thirty: six million dollar compensation out of contention for the compensation. So again, I think all of these factors at least look- and I guess, there's a public now that is least open to that possibility that sure enough, the people that we entrust there are some people that we may not trust as much based on these blatant wrongful convictions. Wrongful conviction is such a nice
sort of innocuous, Oculus wrongful conviction. It's it's not appropriate. This is a travesty justice and a man sitting in jail for four minutes, let alone forty four years and then, like you say, the apathy has to be addressed and and Like I say, the only thing that we can do at this point is if John Wayne Gacy can painting and guys with questionable talent. Can become artists behind bars. How about an artist that was an artist before hand, and it has this beautiful art. I and it's very, very not expressive, of the horror that he's lived through this kind of art just seems to embody the Spirit that this man must have had. Innocent spirit yet that he had no,
I see no maliciousness on his part distant, a desire to be free. Yes in person would yes, yes, I I very eloquent you're, very right, you know, and it's yes I'll tell you something I I I'm so can I went to raise in twenty ten. I went I went to raise up parole hearing a day day after my daughters by minutes, but mitzvah. That's how committed on was to him. Ok and uh. And I you know you know no regrets. Of course I mean I'm glad I went you know, because I got to see the way that things work, and I really wish that I
Maybe that you know, maybe I sound like the most value guy in the world, but I was just shocked. And you know, The way that he was treated and the fact that they're wasting the public's money and not only that you know the most. Porn thing, isn't innocent management behind yells for forty four years and look what he could do if he was free. So I do- I wonder what would happen with his heart. I wonder who the crew crew defect with it yeah it it's. It seems like in this particular case without the moon. We start coming forward like of on of the West Memphis three other people coming forth, like even Baldwin pulling the White House apparently or trying to message the White House and Obama to say listen. This is after watching making a murderer that. I think that
if we can do anything at All- is to start at to many movement of support number one just for to can syndrome as an artist and in that you also consider him as a innocent person and read his story, but- the only thing that he has the only thing that he can give you is his artwork and it would do be very nice that for once this be such a great story that man in prison at least knows that. There's that support there's that support because, as you know, is despite your cachet as a as a journalist and author that you can listen to any change in this particular case. Just buy you know, Fred rules and making a call. So no, no, no, no there's no way, and it's also there's just no way plus it's also your every state.
Different, you know- and you know it it. This is if this was far to be completely different store in much easier because everything's public in Florida, but this is completely different. You are you talking about a very corrupt police force, you working better judge that you know you know I can go right down the line. You know it's just frustrating for me and You know it's. You know you and talking to you today about it. I internal I Yeah, I really like the idea is that you come up with that Ryan supporting we can use his face Facebook, page people who go to raise Facebook page and you and so forth, and and if you have any suggestions for attorneys or anything like that, I like to say good people stick to. Weather in typical times. You know well, these are school times and we're good people. You talked about before this.
That is for knowledge. This was the first interview that any journalist had with Ray Gray about this and on Maybe initially there were some yes for almost an entire forty four years. No one was even interested enough in this other than yourself to interview him. Well, there was is go ahead. I I should explain the with the words a journalist, a journalist. He have to feel no Is it yeah you're, correct, yeah, I'm the only one so far as I know, yeah go ahead. I'm sorry with this opportunity to interview him today, which I thought it was very porn for people to hear right from Ray Gray's mouth. The experience. I I don't even know how prepared I was asking questions, because some questions are just ridiculous
How does it feel you know yeah avoid questions that just they're not great questions. What was his Attitude or anticipation for this interview, what was what was conversation like in ant the station I know in prison is probably looking forward to a phone call or a letter is something that's the highlight of the day. What was his. And he was like this- I would say that Rey Reyes anticipation was, as it usually is, he's very even tempered he was looking for. Over to it, but it wasn't like he was six. You know why he sat on east you've been through this so many times with. Something would look like you. What happened and right now is we're talking. He thinks nothing has happened, so I'm going You know after we speak I'll talk to his wife, who actually called me a couple of times while
we've been on air I'll, let her know what's going on you know and so forth. So that they know that you know that's why I was riding shotgun in case. Something happens. You know in our sway right, shotgun on to the Texas Rangers. So, in any case- yeah. He was looking forward to it, but but he key he He hasn't a, I don't know it's. He he's accepted the situation. Yeah. You know what I mean and and and he doesn't let himself get too excited no yeah I mean the thing is after forty four years, you can't count on something happening for self, otherwise he would have been devastated
every time there was some devastating news, like you say, the humiliating parole hearing. He still can stay optimistic. He didn't have outburst at that hearing by so as a defense mechanism as a survival mechanism. He has to Remain. In his own little way how he handles that time. He can't hope for to get out of prison too much otherwise he'll be completely deaf stated he knows where he is, and he knows likely his fate. He has to stay optimistic to a certain degree, but it must be hard being optimistic at all. After all this time and off after all these failures. Yes, yes exactly, I would agree, as if you could get in the hat, he yeah
he's got it stay level headed because you know these things, you know come up. You know I mean when I say that you know he was getting. He got a call from a producer producer, actually called him in jail, or he called the producer. Rather it not not equal the producer, but you know this is a book of the. Major network show but, like I said you know, without having the ability to photograph from they couldn't do it. Then there You know that that was a major source of of you know that would it was a lot of optimism and then we crashed. You know we, really did crash on that one? Because I really thought you know, and I know you know I. I know how these things go, but you know everything looks pretty good but last night I did just crash. Why I thought to is the incredible
opportunity that arose by having Charlie Matthews come into the same prison and for ray great, realize and then question him and get this affidavit from him, yeah and then again at the last minute that opportunity snuffed out this in edible opportunities. This exonerating evidence exactly yet, and I checked and just the picture the odds killer to come in and or the people responsible come into the prison. Incredible I mean well It's amazing that it hasn't been a screenplay. Just even that scene alone, what are the odds of you being able to do something so monumentous in, on behalf from prison and yet yeah. I mean I, you know again you you write scripts, that you got get it, but but yeah
everything you're saying makes sense. I mean it Actually you know it's it's. It's uh! It's! If there's in case that you know besides resco, possibly the birdman of Alcatraz. You know which was a book originally before he became a movie with Burt, Lancaster directed by John Frankenheimer. Too late. Thank and a reporter got onto the case, and it said this guy should be out well, and in that case the guy was guilty. He really wasn't murdered, but uh and it didn't happen, you know the birdman and you know Robert Stroudsburg Manufactures died in custody. You know it was so difficult. Is you know I've had people close to me so always gonna die in jail. When I go, don't say that you know I mean I've. Had people say that to me? That's pretty. You know it's pretty on thinking, but you know I know where they're coming from, but now
I can happen, we're going to be barbs, barbs health issues, but the overall health of rape raise not an old man. He's. What's the well itself is okay, but one I understand he has. I think he may have happened. I just see uh, and he also, I think, he's got high blood pressure. You know some of the standard stuff as you get older other than that he seems to be okay, but but we I remember that you know forty four years behind bars for anybody. It's not the same as twenty three years and you know with freedom. It gauges. You show. So you know how he is. You know inside physically. I don't know, but the Good NEWS is that, because you know he's always been, you know an athlete, so he keeps you know it certainly keeps in shape. I look, you know so
uh. I don't think he does any boxing anymore but uh, but you know overall he's. Ok, that's good! Yes, it's his story. It just seems incredible, indomitable spirit that this man has. I hope that people will go to the site itself. When it's not very long, it just tells story and- shows you some artwork and need to be able to purchase some of this artwork and really really support this man. If there is any chance at all, this is seems to be the best way I mean certain. Have people know about this case, and that is one of the most important thing and I like to say not everybody knows about this person whatsoever. I hope this program and maybe even subsequent programs will take up this fight for this innocent man ray gray. I want to thank
very much Fred Roseman for coming on and talking about Greg Ray in this incredible case. Fred, we're going be back on talking, in October, about the buy used, wrangler again you're, just a very prolific guy tell us all people might get hold a Fred Rosen to communicate or find out more about all of the great work that you've done so follow. Thank you. Thank you, then, and just have any if you'd like you are, you know, if you're in touch with me, you can just go to work on my facebook, page Studies, you know just could just send an email for Facebook and I'm there that's it. You know, I'm pretty, I'm pretty public that and you know you can always know you can always go to open road, which is.
Turn send an email there. You know, if that's how you prefer doing it. If I was a DC comics guy, I would say you could send that signal, but I'm not going to say that I'll say you can set up the the the spider signal. Yeah, and also we right want to mention for people to go to free rate gray, it's a simple as that check it out, and I know Ray will appreciate it. It's regret all that we couldn't get ready to speak on his own behalf here today, but Fred you spoke for Ray and I thank you very much for this interview I know, will be speaking to you again real soon. Thank you. Then I want to think he was specially today for what you done.
In June two years. I don't recall what you did today: a big mess, good tea. Thank you, sir. Thank you have a great night Fred good night, you to death tonight.
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-19.