« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers

A KNIFE IN THE HEART-Michael Benson

2012-04-04 | 🔗
Sarah Ludemann was new to love. The Pinellas, Florida, 17-year old was a late bloomer. When she fell for a boy she was blind to the world of sex, drugs and drama swirling around her. Soon, Sarah had a bitter enemy in 18-year-old waitress Rachel Wade. Both girls were head-over-heels with a cocky two-timer named Joshua Camacho. On a warm spring night, their passions erupted into violence. A knife flashed under the streetlights. When the fight was over one girl was dead and the other charged with murder. In an emotion-packed courtroom the whole story took shape--a troubling tale of conflicting lives, tangled sexual affairs, and the high price of having the right feelings for the wrong guy. A KNIFE IN THE HEART-Michael Benson
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer Dan asking give me your host dance program, true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors of written about them. Sarah, the woman was new to love the Pinellas Florida. Seven in was a late bloomer when she fell
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Of conflicting lies tangled sexual affairs and the high price of having the the right feelings for the fungi. The book this feature this evening is called a knife in the heart, but my special guest journalist and author and return guest Michael Benson, welcome to the program, and thank you to agree in this interview, Michael Benson, a good evening Dan thanks for having me good evening. Thank you now. Let's start, maybe set the stage with this Penelope's park here. What type of committee isn't isn't tell us, because both of these young women grew up in these grew up in this neighborhood. So tell us about right, Pinellas Florida neighborhood, but was it really, but it always part Florida is a working class town. It's up between Tampa Bay in the Gulf of Mexico landlocked even though its near the Florida sure these. I wish you a rather panda if an industrial city most folks have a blue collar jobs,
and although most people are getting very, it's not a place of much upward mobility or ambition. I don't want to paint the entire city which who brought up a brush, but it certainly seems like it's the case in this particular pack of people that there's a segment of the population. It's stuck in place, casting kind of a malaise, and then we have the cloud of depression that affected both the grownups and if I buy chain reaction, you know their teenage children right now and the book takes patient care about a mean girls, gone wild world signal, drugs and, and unfortunately, in this case, murder right. It was the early morning, hours of April 15th tax day, two thousand and eight just bought exactly four years ago and It was between eighteen year old, high school senior and nineteen year old waitress. She had dropped out of school and her own apartment.
Food was between the young woman had been building up for many months over a boy and it was inflamed by social networking. They talk to each other on Myspace and with each new tweet or whatever you want to call it. They were great escalations of fury and cadenus. The flight took place, in the middle of a quiet residential street. Sarah lieutenant who was the younger girl is a student she brought along to friends and the nineteen year old, who was Rachel, wait considerably smaller than Sarah. She didn't bring any friends with her, but she did bring a knife and fight lasted. No more than five seconds and what it was over SARA in the street, mortally wounded by a stab wound to the heart.
There were more I what precipitated this, though, because you talk about she was, she came with it. The kitchen knife so explain how it was. Sarah and her friends came to be at Rachel, Wade's apartment or home. Tell us you're an aerial, and yet, during the day the evening at this occurred, hostilities have been growing. Rachel wanted to spend the night with some boyfriend Joshua, but Joshuah had Sarah over Josh was staying at the time was, with his sister and uh insults, went back and forth and driven past each others houses. They were shouting things and uh.
Rachel had reason to believe that she was going to be jumped by more than one girl and armed herself in goes to protect yourself with a kitchen knife with with a kitchen knife scrub, the kitchen, I put it in her purse on her way out the door, and then she went over to a friends house where she thought that she would be safe. So the owl. What do you? Why wasn't she say that this location, How did Sarah well? You know where she was what happiness each goes over to her friend have house and heavier boy was an ex boyfriend and then a platonic friend at the time, and
but have you as a friend over named dusting Grimes in their hanging out the front yard and have years mom is asleep in the house. So, instead of taking Rachel Sphere, who fears that she's gonna be jumped into the house where you shouldn't be seen, felt hanging out in front of the house and when a friend of Sarah drives buying spots them no word travels fan, you know, there's the others are rumble in the middle of the street other. What was for it? I know it now. You saying that someone did Rachel without you might be jump by more than one person, and they had this long or at least in terms of teenage like a long standing few that was getting escalate into an eye for an eye for months. There has been a break there was it was. It was really bad for a while, and then there was a breakin than it had started up again.
The house was the actual threat where she actually apparently said. I will kill you, but the one thing they will get into is their Rachel is a victim of her own big mouth. She was a she's, a diminutive blonde kind of sweet looking, but when she felt threatened, she really could let loose with you. She was a park or not. A biter was her reputation pursued the sheep. She could just go into a tirade of insults and in no vulgar ready and she use that as a way to keep people away ram and into into hurt back when she felt that she had been hurt. But I think the the fascinating thing about this case- and I don't know if you agree, but it's that there are eyewitnesses and the eye witnesses coming
oops, there's other sarahs witnesses and there are Rachel's witnesses and thick don't agree on much. No, no Rachel's friends all spoke of small woman. Defending yourself against three larger women who had jumped her is Sarah's friend spoke of Rachel charging, it Sarah and immediately plunging the kitchen knife into Sarah's chest yeah, so yeah. So I just should also said it by the time this happens. The Pinellas Park, police department is really sick. Of these kids they've been a problem for year. Furthermore, this drug dealers there's an every every move. Every social move since be dramatized into something straight on a website story is car chases, all kinds of reckless driving a gesture a few days before the murder. Several local high school kids have been killed in a car crash. Right now, you've got
there are screaming to have yearly. Boys house interprets minivan now almost going up on two wheels to make the turn and screeching to a halt three feet away from the nose of Rachel's car. So but the other thing is that Josh welcome MACHO who's, the boy warring parties share. She is an instigator and he is told them both. You know. If you love me enough, you will right so here you go there and describe this guy too, because he talk about diminutives. Like tell me what, because we have photos of this guy posing, you know, he's got tattoo This is a gangster kind of guy so but describe who we? What would he is like a statue? Really. If you had a guess what he looked like based just at the behaviour of his women. You would guess that he was a tall, dark and handsome hath forthwith
the truth was really different in a way more interesting. He he was an undersized, pretty boy who didn't work for a living, but instead leached from his girlfriend there's a guy who made playing women into a science. He had a baby with watching girlfriend he. Part Rachel Weitz Apartment for free. Sarah looming virginity, Rachel's trial. He described this relationship with all of these women as friends with benefits. Yeah, no emotion at all, he is controlling. Nature is need to play. Puppet master came through loud and clear. I thought when you learn that he It instructed Saranac to wear shorts in public, no matter how high it was outside because he decided that he wanted to be the only one who got to see her legs and Sarah didn't even question that she wore long pants. Weather well they're young though- and I mean a lot of this stuff I mean controlling people is- is not
new. I mean there's a lot of a lot of jealous controlling people, both trip, but it's interesting when I wouldn't would, would you did talk about what I was going to ask, because we want to make sure that this was an out of character for these young girls. They lived in this sort of world and you did describe this over exaggerated sort of world. They thought they were living in. You know really. It was promised good promiscuous crowd warning to readers, with the gentle sensibilities. What a better picture of her sex talk going is, as one cup poet, immediately following the murder was an overall love triangle as much as it was. Rather, a love extra guard, the heart to Rachel. We discovered sex it, a very tender age, shoes Classic example of too much too soon and share, on the other hand, was an overweight girl, large teased by friends and a late bloomer with boys and Joshua
She was her one and only in terms of scheduling. Josh's girlfriends were perfectly complimentary to each other. Sarah was a high school girl with a curfew it had to be home early and Rachel was a restaurant waitress wasn't available until late. He thought he could see. Both every night and they never ran into each other until if this night she has the night off I'll help, bricks, incidents, Camacho cards with plant and the clear here, because no really is not there.
He convinces each girl that they are his one, and only although anybody from the outside looking in can tell immediately what sort of person he is not just scheduling, but I think the two girls were complementary as well in terms of their personalities, sexual and otherwise they'll Rachel's, cute Applebee's waitress, with a wild lifestyle she's a sexual experimenter and she's. Unfortunately, just as intense out of the sack is she is in and Sarah she's. She switched schools, so she could be closer to Joshuah Camacho. She adores him completely. In that light, skews me: why is it that Rachel is living with a friend?
or why is she not living with their parents? Well, you know that, let's Rachel, only fifteen when's trouble start. She was at home with their parents is, but she gets busted for skipping school in order to have sex with her older, technically adult boyfriend and Rachel's parents had the boy arrested and charged with statutory rape tonight at Edison for Rachel begins a pattern of running away from home. She disappears for a couple of days and she returns home with it, sometimes with a detailed explanation, sometimes a little vague explanation. Each time Rachel's parents called the police and filed a report and the police in quite a few cases. They just went to the house of whoever boyfriend was found her and brought her home. No,
Sometimes, Rachel ran away simply because she had a better offer than to sleep at home with their parents and other times she ran off because of violent arguments had mostly with her mother. Once Rachel threw a knife at her mother before running out, the door asked why the waves continued call the police, even though they knew were Rachel, probably was very way. The dad said that he'd been advised by the police to keep a paper trail of everything because of their declamation. All the documentation would come in here when it came time to take further action regarding Rachel's behavior fashion. Mention that a large contributor to this entire tragedy is drugs, they're all smoking pot and there's a frightening number of the cities, young people who are addicted to an opiate painkiller. They called Roxies the brand name. I guess was Roxy Toto,
your blue pills and some kids called the blues. It's been a major most likely yeah yeah. I think it's very similar, just maybe a different manufacturer but they're going to major theft at the pharmaceutical warehouse in hundreds of one thousand, these pills were stolen and it causes a tragic wave of serious drug addiction throughout Florida. Kids are taking the pills unaware that they're becoming addicted to the same active substance that in Herald sure so there's a tendency anyway for young people to feel immortal. They don't feel anxiety about danger. The same way older adults do their careless. The reckless and the natural tendency was exacerbated by the roxies which further
get a fishing and created a pain, feel pain, free illusion of euphoria, too many pills parks. Teenage girls were skipping school hanging out with older boyfriends, who had apartments in their own. They were taking drugs having sex and making babies what recital into Rachel during those years, his beautiful young woman named lethal effects and that she is also interesting from my point of view, because she was the only witness ahead. Who can honestly claimed to be friends with both. Sarah Rachel bright, she'll tell LISA. Rachel had boyfriends, who roommates when they were teenagers and they spent a lot of time together, having Saxon taught taking drugs in close proximity, and while our best info is that Rachel for all romantic behave
here was no longer doing. Drugs least it developed a severe pain killer. Addiction Uroxys took over my life is what she told me and that long before the murder LISA was visiting. Rachel at Rachel's apartment, and they had a fight over that there was the Phillies, the weights final layer of taking care of the runaway problem. Is they allowed Rachel to quit school and get her own apart? It was almost working here. She had a job, she got energy, the butt,
listen and Rachel are together and Rachel Department, not long before the murder and leases slurring, her words and acting out of it and Rachel gave her an ultimatum quit the pills or they they couldn't be friends anymore. At least it shows the pills she said she was high all the time she was high, the night that Sarah died and I'm personally happy report that leases sense, gotten off drugs and she seemed cheerful enough gainfully employed and taking it one day at a time right, So, let's talk about the voice mails, yes, that's key evidence at the trial. Is it turns out this months before the murder, during the first feud between Sarah and Rachel, over Joshuah Rachel left a series of voice mails on
Sarah's phone and, as it turns out, these tapes were almost psychologically effective pieces of evidence for the prosecution, threatening their obscene and even though they occured months before the murders, so that you know term legal terms, the relevance was diminished, their emotional power we made very strong. I mean there were sospiri that Sarah called the cops who recommended she save the recording that she did and that's how they ended up being evidence against Rachel at the trial. The Rachel whose voices on those tapes is just monstrous. She delivered a profanity strewn, manic, monologue of insults and threats, soundkeeper slightly like the type of person who is stab someone in the chest in cold blood go every time. I listen to those voicemails. I get
distinct impression that there's something wrong with Rachel, something organic, some synapse in her brain that isn't firing correctly. She sounds for all the world's if she's written out a speech ahead of time and then his reading it as fast as she could right. So I mean it later on, I think it it becomes important, because her defense attorney has no choice, but to put her on the stand. Because he can't allow those tapes to be her testimony. What plus he's pleading self defense. So she has to take the stand battery light two here, so yeah go through the witnesses. The eye witnesses. There are two girls in the minivan with Sarah Sarah's driving her father's minivan sitting in the front seat with her
First and foremost is JANET Camacho she's, Joshuas sister, and she is the original tough girl, yeah she's, both friends with Sarah and she hates Rachel's guts, because she thought, Rachel is a bad influence on earth after Rachel waited Stab Sarah, it was JANET Camacho who grabbed Rachel and gave her a good beating right. First, at first JANET takes off one of her sandals and start smacking. Trying to the knife out of her hands smacks Rachel over the head with it and later JANET had Rachel by the hair here. She's dragging her around Javier with boys, front lawn and Rachel makes no attempt to use her knife on JANET. You know somehow, during this altercation Rachel manage, is to free yourself for long enough to run away and throw the knife weighs far. She can in its later found on the neighbors roof right and the prosecution claims that Rachel was trying to ha
take the weapon, while the defense made the also reasonable claim that she got rid of the knife in self defense that she was afraid JANET was going to take it away from her and use it on her and import. Janet was very, very pregnant and nonetheless had a tough girl strut as she entered in exit the court room and, while understands staring at Rachel, hiding that almost licking her chops, obviously thinking about what she would do. If she could just have five minutes alone in a room with Rachel Wade, sure sitting in the dark. I want to ask one thing, though: yeah sure wasn't: cheap stabbed twice like where exactly what she stabbed and was she stabbed twice in this very specific spot in the chest. You say the chest, but she wanted to have them The fact that the first wound is up in the shoulder and it's just a flesh
it would. It would been a matter of stitches right. The second, the second stamp, which is a fraction of a second later, goes through the skin through the muscle between the ribs, through the pleural sack and into the heart itself. So it she had mustered up but consider amount of strength in her and
did she did Sarah die right away or how many? How long was it pretty quickly? She managed she manages to get her cell phone out and she calls Joshuah and she says it hurts and then collapses on the street right next to her van driver door is still open and you know what what happens at. That point of course depends on which I went this you're listening to so, as I said, the resource. Sarah had two friends with her and sitting in the back seat is Julisa Smith, who is another a larger girl she's going to be five, eight, something like the and she's related to the father
of JANET Majors babies. So there, the related by marriage annually sometimes goes over the baby sit and naturally Julius memories support the prosecution but you ve elements were story that are in anyone else's version. She says she missed key action because she dropped her phone in the back popped off. It was picking it up, and putting the phone back together. If things were going out and she remembered how building JANET back physically. So she couldn't attack Rachel when everyone else remember JANET, beating the tar out of Rachel with doing nothing to stop her, but still it was chilly so who first realized its error. Hyphen stabbed and had collapsed to the paper. It was Julisa screams that Sir said Esben scab, then that alerted the others, that there was a medical emergency Julie, so
she did get her phone back in one piece also successfully called nine one one and reported the stabbing Dover and Rachel side of the eye witnesses. You have Javier Laboy and she is going to be her best friend he's. Decided that he has seen it is the only be filling my witness was sees things exactly the way that Rachel herself season yeah. Of course he he he sees three girls piling out of the van at once. Where is Cher's friends say they don't get out of the ban until after the standing there stood one one fight, but you can have your says all three girls can have the van at once and charge it it Rachel. Who then, has to defend yourself during the first few months that Rachel's in jail, it's Javier, who becomes her voice?
You see we have takes with him on the phone reassuring her that that was all champ married evidence will be ok. What's the jury realises the truth, you hear them dreaming about life together, they gonna get married. Have children only cut both the good name, their children, after royal liquidity and others? Have your friend, dusting Grimes he's he's just happens to be over visiting heavier? Doesn't it doesn't hurt? You don't have a dog in this fight, but he'd probably. I would think that he has the least biased viewpoint and
yeah. Can you sleep? The closest x close as we get to an impartial witness and potentially potentially it potentially yeah, and he does say things that please both signs he he says that Rachel move forward away from her own car in Thord Sarah's with a knife, in her hand, not a girl on the defensive, but he also says in this Pasito absolutely thrilled the defense attorney. He says that all three girls in the Van get out at the same time and come charging ports rates and the other. The other interesting thing about Dustin is that he enlisted in the military, actually murder, and he do that he was going to be overseas during the trial, so his testimony was recorded earlier in the same courtroom. It's all the same parties present, except for the cherry and then in the tv tape, was played for the jury and they had to say
organize things with the jury would be seeing pieces of evidence says they were introduced on the tape, and it looks up this this courtroom procedure. It was, it was a little odd. Yeah I mean usually was no cross. Examination, so it's a whole lot less strenuous than obviously going to court right exactly and uh it. It's just interesting that you tend to think of the of a trial that is being at lift that it's being played out sort of off the cuff and when you go back to a tape that was made once before and you played and it fits in per We realise that this is this child. Her pretty well scripted would I wanted ass. He was the because you ve written you know. I was over forty books and into crime is not the only thing he written about, but definitely written. You wonders,
then, the legal process in your mind when you were looking at this case before the trial and when I'm looking at it too did you have your did. You have an idea of what technically is self defense? She came out of the home with a knife in the purse. Well, really not the definition of self defence doesn't need a jury I'll. Take it that way, but that's a little bit of a stretch of self defense, isn't it well. I think I think that there's there's a standard rule, you don't bring a knife to a fist fight now. The other thing that complicates matters that Florida has the new stand, your ground rule right for many many states. They say that if you can, you should run but Florida ecstasy and sissy having up they're having a lot of their having a lot of acquittals with self defense defences.
Because it says it, you are allowed to stand your ground, even though you are being attacked uh, which is the case. Here one. Are you supposed to be able to use force plus one? And if you have three people, you bring in your fists to a fair fight and still doesn't work out with three people ex assuming that three people are actually attacking her. That's right. I think there is strong evidence that girls attacked The police had never heard anybody and JANET and Sarah attacked Rachel one at a time that it is as if it was interesting case in that I didn't know what the verdict was. Have you unless there is, it was through a strong. Legal ending chances are, it doesn't become a book because you don't want,
but the word allegedly in five thousand times you riding upon yeah, but they appeared. The question afterwards was. Was she charged properly church? She was arrested that night and charged with second degree murder right now, and was that correct was second degree. Murder means that Rachel deliberately killed Sarah with that knife, but she decided to do she decided to do it on the spur of the moment. Some thought that, She was under charge because really premeditation only takes a matter of seconds and wasn't aspect that she had the knife with her in the first place, evidence premeditation, Eleanor others who thought it Rachel was overcharge that she should have been charged with manslaughter but she had a reckless disregard for. Sarah safety was true, but she's not intentionally killed. Her.
She didn't have the skills to purposely do the damage that she did. She was just flailing. Was there a question of of that? She had stabbed her once, like you say, a surface moon but then went in for the not for the kill but the lethal stab wound. It went right, the heart quickly. You know I mean this was lethal. Was there a question of that? If she was just defending herself, wouldn't have the stab itself most people, whether they're, stabbed Fatalii or not, or are not going to keep attacking? So it was there any Question about that incident it so you know there was not an eyewitness who could identify when the stabbing took place. Two girls- it all happened so fast. The girls come together in the middle of the street and there is
just get mad flurry of motion, hair in arms and give screaming, and then they separate and at first to really feel that everything should be okay. Sarah walks back to her van I'd, stay of standing up and Rachel backs off and moves away, and it looks like it's over and it's not until Sarah goes down of cheese place most for bleeding
colonel uh. There ok workouts erupts again, but this you know we don't have anybody who says yes, she stabbed her once and that wasn't good enough stabbed in again, if the two stamps were part part of a flurry of motion that nobody on either side could distinguish yeah, so uh, but I mean you know her. Her defense believes that her actions were protected under floors right to stand your ground law and that she's been jumped three on one and that rendered the use of the knife justifiable. I had no had no idea what the jury was going to do with this case. You look at it. Look at the opening of your program, the most notorious and shocking killers. The shocking thing about Rachel weight being a killer is that she looks completely harmless
almost half of the murders over sitting on a bench in front of Javier is House and the Shasta cop. She can promise cigarettes and actual figures, sullen cheerleader. What was her? actions like after her arrest in terms of now. You get a lot of cases in this one off. Usually they look very closely at the person's behavior after it. If there's any visits phone calls. So what was the behaviour right after that? What how is this? You still cocky every? What would you like? No, no, she was. She was quiet symbol of dazed. Yeah she sat there and watched as the ambulance pulled up and she lied, and this was the thing is she like she said she doesn't know how she is now. Sarah got spam, No clue it well memory now
yeah. She remembered everything except stabbing sound yeah, which is probably not the way to go because it seemed phony baloney sure we talk for a second about about the families 'cause. The two families in this case are really heartbreaking. Yeah I mean I know it's it's harder to lose a daughter to death then, then too loser to prison, maybe, but just can't excite yeah early not do a good job with a little bit bewilderment. You, I think what you tonight to crime, Booker Britain and the families of the victims, always make my heart go out there that never changes they they want to do their best to protect the child's legacy. And yet they wipe privacy. They sometimes treat writers. Like me, like unwanted travelling salesman. Understood me
others treat me like free of charge. Therapist than leaving my shoulder to cry and its fire by injecting myself in their life. The lieutenant is worth the latter group, although I didn't do me any good, because every time I got to them, they had already participated in the night. Shall tv show dealing with their daughters death and had signed an exclusivity agreement tonight? You gonna be used anywhere else, so our discussions were brief. The big thick it there were plenty things did I did now. I knew that despair knew no bounds of intensity, Charlie, looting and with a large man with bad uneasy. Eighty cabdriver
who, along with his wife and only daughter, only child, had moved to Florida from New York City because they wanted to be where it was safe. Yeah it was, it was. Sarah died, Charlie, repeatedly, dialed, Sarah's cell phones. We could listen to her recorded voice, saying hi wait for the beep. He realized there was the uh sheriff you gonna to have to her voice from it. He had some of these areas. Ashes injected under his skin is part of a tattoo so carry a little of her around with him forever. On the other side, Rachel's mom, long suffering, mother, she had an older son. There was a Rachel had an older brother. He no longer lived at home, yeah. He was a strange from the family for reasons that are never spoken out loud, and we just know that Rachel can't stand them and and then came Rachel after the brother had moved out and she
even more grief. She ran away again and again, as Rachel's mom would put it to Hachi taxis should taste for grown men and she wanted more and it was Rachel's mom who really freaked out the most. When she heard that Rachel is being charged with murder, it was the last straw she just broke. You know she just wish. She thought you couldn't be hurt even more about your children, Rachel It was as if she's Deborah mother in the heart of the woman withdrew into a shell, has seen the deep state a shock both during the days after Rachel. Rest and culminating in court where one point during the proceedings mom buried her face in her.
His chest and just finally shudders further seemingly forever and Rachel Dead, also in a state of shock, was physically trying to keep his wife inside her skin. She was shaking so hard. Three very rough to watch, but Rachel had a lot of friends, high school friends as well that attended the drought in it. Now we have it, the place was packed with young people and our worthy of the treaties. The reporters who was covering the trial in person said that during the breaks, the hallway outside the courtroom sounded like a high school catholic. Without it, the shattered going on the extreme young crowd. Waiting on whistle of France was there and a lot a lot of Rachel's waitress friends
one of a lot of a lot of Rachel's friends and a lot of Sarah's friends had really their best friends had advised both these women are how these women, women, especially in Sarah's case, had actually spoken to him and said: that's it I'm off this guy, guys done it again. It was a lot of advice from their friends and a lot of friends to say: listen, you guys deserve better than this guy. Well, that's true, and of course they did, but. It has to do with the social networking. When you put something on to a social network. That embarrass is somebody it's not private, it's as if you're doing it with everybody standing around watching. I'm sure I would one of Sarah's. Most interesting friends was actually loved lady and she
It was important to evenings events because if we believe the official version of the story, I was actually who spotted Rachel hanging out in front of hobbyhorse, house and told Sarah dinner to friends were Rachel could be found. What first interview by the police, actually denied a role and after days thought she realized that this was too important for to lie about. She just not been sure how much trouble she'd be in if she admitted to what she done. Ashley was the trials first witness and got the emotional ball rolling when she burst into tears, as she discussed the way that Pinellas Park girls were abused by their men. Clearly, a dated Joshuah commercials older brother. No, what what was what was Josh were doing like after the
his trial was he posting anything on his facebook account or pardon me is Myspace account. What was? Was there any activity like that from this Joshuah? Now you know he he drops out of the situation. He refuses to go with Sarah's father to see her body in the hospital. He is not allowed to attend her funeral. He only appear is at the trial in order to testify- and he cs- you know- he's he's lost his these last one girlfriend to dance with another one to jail and the third Aaron Slothower, who is the mother of his child. You know she's always going to be around she's an interesting character too. She sure
here's to give up your interviews, but she had talk a little bit with me. She was she was Josh was first girlfriend, they met grammar school and they had a child together and once she got pregnant, of course, he lost interest and for her part she was a real life. Teen mom witch Hunter stood, the Josh was useless and she was going to have to step up and be the Sponsa Belh one yeah. She went back to school, she earned a college degree. She was pregnant while she's pregnant. She was working full time she had her life together and by the time Rachel killed. Sarah without that world sugar think about it until the next day, when I finally better to make a comment which she said was you know the whole thing is just so sad, crazy, teens so caught up in their own drama that someone had to die. It is a tragedy,
it is interesting yeah. It is interesting too, that Josh did not. I mean he couldn't go. He couldn't attend a trial as being a witness, but after after he did appear as a witness, he could appear at the trial. So I thought it kind of odd that he didn't, but he just I mean. Despite the advice I mean, This kid really turned as much as he had this tough guy persona that he was presenting. He took the advice of I guess that you know the prosecutor and his parents or whatever, and he really did not act like the character is portrayed earlier and in your account of out of him slowly eyes, he effect you ran away. He went to New York, I think he's now.
Turned to Florida, but you went into hiding is an interesting sidebar. The first journalists to interview Rachel's parents after the murder was a woman named Lane did Gregory and she is a features writer for the Tampa Bay Times Mariah. It was just. It was during her first day these of covering the case that she learned that she had won a Pulitzer Prize and she turned out to be a tremendous asset to my book because she offered me a lead that led to a whole new mind of information. That being the rate shop prison takes one Rachel's first thrown in jail. She thought that it was a temporary thing in suited. Everyone will come down to figure out the choose just standing yourselves. Will she be a free woman once again,
so she used up a lot of her phone time having phone sex with boys. Why not? She seems to think that it was the only way for her to keep their attention. Interestingly enough, when she wandered to more serious subjects, they seem to their interest flagged. So she kept talking about sex and apparently prisoner phone sex is not that uncommon. Despite the fact that everyone knows all conversations are being recorded by the authorities and anything they say can be used against them. Rachel's death warrant her early not to discuss the static, but he didn't say now: don't have phone sex with your boyfriend and the recordings of those conversations are very revealing as we try to figure out,
but what makes Rachel tick. She asked one guy. What was the first thing he was going to do when he saw her. He says he's going to grab and squeeze and kiss your neck, and she said the first thing when she saw him she was going to become his little head monster and she's going to take care of business. This guy wasn't as good phone sex as she was. He kept trying to put the action inside the jail with Rachel on her cell mates and she was going to go for that. So the tip start out with hot chat with this, my name Jeremy, and then she loses interest when he realizes that she's not going to be home next week, and then she starts in with Javier Lowboy and she's smart enough to cut out the porn and move to more romantic things with Xavier he's a little bit classier guy and, as I said,
they talk about their little life together and how get get married. Unfortunately, unfortunately, this is all being taped and the prosecutor uses the uses, the tape later on, to attack boys credibility on the stand, you'd say anything you want to marry her. You said that the trial is both shocking and spectacular. I mean it's just high drama. The jury had to decide if Rachel had murdered Sarah little bit because it was three hundred and one or if she had a right to defend yourself with deadly force, and the presentation of the eye witnesses formed a perfect framework for the telling of the story, which was made things relatively easy for me date that the wildly different ways that they eyewitnesses saw things proves once and for all, that memories of a thing that we can argue to support,
beliefs rather than the truth, and how easily influenced here we are how machination join hands with memories so easily. Especially during a shocking moment in the most dramatic over the trials when Rachel Way takes a stand in her own defects. Risky more for four defamatory jane: What you like, you said it I had a self defense case have to put her on the outskirts doesnt, which was really pay off threats, because weltering direct examination rather stringently controls for words through carefully constructed sentences, only worked as a team describing for the jury, the fear Rachel felt and how she was jumped by
multiple girls and how she feared she was going to be beaten to a pulp, and she thought you know maybe Joshuah had a gun. Maybe his sister had the done. If he'd let the guns of Sarah, she felt she had you're. Good reason are more self that night, but the purpose of the night was never to use it. It was just to show it in the sight of that. Blade was going to cause the gang to back down and there would be peace in the world that was the plan and he's gone horribly wrong. It was so tragic and who, who so direct, ok circle hearts go ahead. Direct examination goes well, then racials turned over to prosecutor Suzette.
Anyways who lights into her like a Wolverine Ohana, which speaks very fast. She interrupts Rachel's answer she yells and Rachel did not take it well. She lost control of her emotions that began to babble and word spilled out completely out of her attorneys control. At this point- and she said stuff that was damaging gas, she threatened to murder Sarah. Yes, she carried out that threat. Oh boy yeah, as I said before, before we get too critical of Mister a bear. He's gotta put her on not only because of the self defense, but because of those those damn tapes of of her threatening Sarah and default voice mails. But what did you think of the argument he put forth anyway? It seems almost on the line of not being able to be eligible for self defense by saying that Well, she just brought out the knife because he thought they
they have a gun. Well, that's almost it doesn't matter. You went to a robbery, you didn't know, you're going to encounter any difficulty and the guy ends up dead, guess what murder. So I don't think I don't think anybody bought this thing about the gun. It was perfectly clear that deduct the gun wasn't mentioned during preliminary hearings. It was a late entry into the into the story where the desperate last ditch attempt yeah. What I'm saying. Oh, what did you think of is I mean he didn't really even have a good argument anyway, when you in terms of actual solved
fence, if you already brought out a weapon in case, then something else happens. That's not much of a self defense excuse either and that's this strong as he could present. He could only use it to address her state of mind. Yeah. I think that she is never said she was afraid he always said she was in fear if I was a hard affectation, not quite sure what that was supposed to accomplish. That was. That was the reason that he introduced a gun and he even called Joshuah Camacho to the standard talk about the gun, and he got him to admit that at one time we had a gun but Joshuah. It was not in the mood to cooperate anyway and gave yes and no answers and said he didn't remember. A lot wasn't understand for very long at all what
Rachel waits demeanor like it it had. They done a pretty good job that direct examination of sort of like last time. They ll change almost their appearance to look as wholesome and in it as soon as possible, an inquiry one either she she was. She was dressed in white and black, both this in turn in mourning. She was allowed to wear eye makeup today that she testified she went without any makeup. Otherwise,. She seemed to be very well well rehearsed. She gave answers by wrote, she seemed very, very demure, Varisoft spoken, tiny little voice, um and it it's amazing to watch it all crumble. The second you know this handle it's lights into her yeah. They start immediately start yelling at each other and
poor Jay there he's sitting there just got all because the jury is hearing the voice. They heard on the tape start to come out once once Rachel gets agitated. You start to hear that manic sound, that there's something wrong with this girl sounds her voice right yeah. So what took a lot of other one one last question: no one hears you're here for one last ones, who are the most compelling witnesses and for who did they speak? On behalf of
your mind, I was most impressed. I think, with gigantic merger. Janet Camacho had a clear sense of who the good guys from the bad guys worry and came into that evening with that sense that just the fact, if I didn't like Rachel, because I, which was bad for my brother, it's it's strong character, assassination right price for the cherry to hear an but the way she she looked. She was she stared at the defendant, while she testified.
You know it's? It's just very, very, very, very strong, a strong woman who made it very clear that she attacked Rachel because Rachel just stabbed her friend and this whole notion of three girls jumping her was nonsense. They would have had a fist fight. You know they have been broken up in thirty seconds. Maybe somebody had a bloody lip and that would have been that except Rachel broadened. And that was what I found compelling. I talked to Sarah. Had no, we protective private political head. Sorry, ok, you talk to the detectives. Are the lead detective Michael Lynch, and I asked him yeah. Why do the girls in the store?
We have such low self esteem. He told me that he couldn't believe that there was so many father's out there in Pinellas Park and he presumed everywhere else as well, who allowed their daughters to have such dangerously low opinions of themselves were worthless without a boyfriend, you have a boyfriend all the time, Or else there's something wrong with it reminded me when they ask even king about the difference between Harry Potter books and the twilight books so that the Harry Potter books are about deal stepping up teamwork facing your fears. The twilight books about the importance of having a boyfriend yeah. It's my book, nice and hard is the. Is the anti twilight books? Is this point? There's a lesson to be learned here. Is that it's not that important important have a boyfriend now grow up, be happy and he says that his daughters and his own detective Lynch and that he is
constantly just inflating their egos and when he just girls are older, he wants to watch them to think that no one is good enough for them and demand the very best in how they're treated no matter. What well, I think the thing is. We think we forget how it was when we were young. I mean the thing is a lot of. I think kids have been forced to grow up much much younger and I think they look get everything much more seriously, and I don't think it's that much of a surprise. I have a nineteen, your daughter, there is in serious relationship with her boyfriend for the last three years. I mean why
I was at age. I couldn't even possibly grasp that, and I was not that kind of person, but I think kids have changed in that respect and they and they take these things much more seriously, but you do add a mix of drugs and low self esteem and maybe estrangement from their parents or least there's at least not as close as they could possibly be and, like you say, just this confluence of things and you get this sad and tragic end result. But there is a fair amount of these people posing and making threats. That's what I find to that a lot of younger people make threats without understanding that somebody might take those
threats that they do daily and take them quite seriously. So why I spoke to a psychological, counselor name, Cathy Morelli, and she told me that there's a change in brain chemistry that happens to people when they had sex, biological attachment forms and the brain changes from shared experience produced Poten imo ah causing normally mile people to reserve to resort to violence of teenagers, aren't adults with a strong, immature attachment passion stirs up primal possessiveness and you know, there's a strong chance that Rachel had problems at home that she entered entered the world with with a certain void, because most girls don't drop out of school run away from home just because of an unwanted curfew. Uh. You know it's clear that she was a difficult child with whom to cope and that there was maybe a mismatch,
comparable between the parents in the child, though she, for whatever reason, didn't have any faith in herself as an individual. She combined with poor d vision, making extreme anger management difficulties, and you know there you go and she's she's hooked on a boy whose narcissistic he's got an inflated sense of self important and exaggerated need for admiration, and is this true with many nurses he appeared arrogantly self assured and confident, although that turned out not to be the actual case, we could see by observing his behavior that he reacted poorly. When things work on his way here long before the murder, he punch. Sarah one point: he put We gotta Rachel his working,
demonstrated a lack of ambition. You know perhaps, because he feared competitive situations and he lived his life, avoiding the risk of failure narcissist with their intrinsic lack of regard for others feelings. They prey on people with dependent personalities, they feed off of others and enjoy being fought over, enjoy manipulating their sexual partners. Josh is girls were pray for the opportunist narcissist and he was drawn to them shark to blood did the also think it's someone interesting commentary to live with it. It is very quite rare for women to him to kill in comparison gas, ass majority be men. However, there seem to be a slight increase, especially in younger younger people, in terms of fighting in this kind of context, for parents killing their parents or killing siblings, and what I thought was interesting is that you talk about Rachel, but you know Sarah
go there with a couple women, a couple of the women in a van to you or I I'm I'm fifty three years old. So I'm saying man that just sounds like a bunch of guys, eyes and not all guys would have done that, though it seems idly rare and not right but I did you do have this nineteen year in a ban over a boy getting out of a van and somebody with a knife, and somebody spotting someone else. It seems high drama and very very serious. It almost seems like the kinds of things that boys would do say over a drug debt or something, but it seems, seems out of place for young women to be acting like thugs, almost unique. It's uh detective Lynch says that ninety five percent of all murders involve a male uh and it's very uh
I'm afraid the army, the remaining five per cent per woman on woman, girl and girl crime is very, is very rare, too big. Do it, and especially in a combative situation like this, and I said there is- there- is an uptick in violence among teen girls, but it's. She looked at me wrong type of fight whose hair pulling in school, when the panic is broken up in the lab work cursing at each other, but no Do you really get hurt? She helps. This is one of a kind kind of incident. I want to ask you to Michael. We ve got just a few minutes. There were five minutes left, but I would ask you: how did you come to rightly design? I know you do hand of all kinds. Is it really heavy heavy stories at other authors? Might back away
very tense. Why? What? What about the story want and made? You want to write about this. This case itself. Well, I think- had to do with it and it's all the way. As I just said it it it. It's it's pretty bizarre mean it's not it's not a serial killer and it's not spooking. It's not a horror story. Like the stories. I usually tell it's it's a it's a psychological drama and that the question is not even sure I answered it adequately. The question is how how did these girls get this way? What is what is it? What is it about today's society about maybe that region, maybe America, maybe maybe the world? What is it about today that allows this to happen. As you said, they sound like they're, guys stupid pizza,
monopolies to pollute absolutely here and it's the in its day to day scrawny little male, who wants to be kept. But we're going back a trophy exactly. And not yet, like you say it's just a little little guy, you know I'm just posing disposing incredible, So anyway, my nextbook we're going to get back to its moral character. I think, for me it's true film of a book I believe it can be. I believe it can be called noodle the art gallery butcher it's the story of Elton Brutus Mirth, a former sailor who once tried out to be a navy, feel who claimed to hear voices in his head that ordered him to rape and kill women for years. He says he battled the voices
which also told him that he was a special chosen one, perhaps at God himself the Lord Brutus he called himself and the body of joy, say: Wishard was found on Wednesday January 21st, two thousand and four on the floor of her palm Ave. Art gallery so to Florida she was strangled and mutilated after death. Her crotch was surgically removed, and the thing that makes this book different for me was the killer's willingness to share with me. His story, and he describes in great detail, is slow descent into madness and for the first time, details on how he killed and mutilated his victims. Well, I can relate. I can relate I'm looking forward to that. My job is to keep Ladys from going to sleep at night, referred or find a form with that
I've heard that one over don't want. We re read the book, but not at night. I can't beat it is at present still conducting an investigation into a court case, double homicide off the hook being that the victims were classmates mark two grow. Fourteen fortunate, sixteen to place near my Rome, home, gruesome sex change, changed that neck of the woods forever. So we changed my world and I'm working with a private detectives and John Tubman up in Scotts Ville New York and we're going to find out who did it fits forty five years later, but we're going to give them the mother one of the victim. Some closure very interesting, very interesting, good work. Good luck to you with. The jury on earth, something yellow we already have were we're getting worse. Follow hate. I love to hear about that and, of course, will have you back on the program talking about those do very, very interesting books that I'm sure you'll
The pumping out of here Eureka Incredible Book factory that you have going on there and that where you live, I want to thank again much more common on the programme of aid in another gauging interview an in a great book and for those listening, it's been a knife in the heart, Michael Benson's latest true crime, soon to be best selling classic. No doubt. Thank you very much. Michael, have yourself a good evening and talk to you soon. Goodnight and now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. He took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah. Please be the cheetah and learn your animal. Isn't the cheetah, but before appealing blood fish,
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.