Blog talk, radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week. Another fascinating achter talking about the most shocking and infamous killer crime. History, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening, On a fall evening in Corvallis Oregon in nineteen sixty seven seventeen year old, Dick Kitchell, a senior at the high school, disappeared after attending a party ten.

Days later, his body was spotted by two children as it floated down the Willamette River. He had been beaten and strangled the investigation in His murder played out during one of the most dramatic years in America, life in CORE Vallas, a college town at offered a protective idyllic life to many, but in nineteen sixty seven, one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight Vietnam, a presidential campaign, the assassin nations of Martin Luther King Junior and Robert Kennedy and the murder of Dick Kitchell changed all that his friends thought his death was ignored because Dick was from the wrong side of the tracks. Police in the Distri attorney thought they knew who had murdered the boy, but never made an arrest decades later, a cold case. Detective believed he too had solved the case. However, once again, justice was elusive. Now, nearly fifty years later, classmate New York Times bestselling author Rebecca Morris, written

turns to her hometown to write about how the murder change the town and the lives of Dick Kitchell's friends Rebecca Morris is in New York, times best selling author. If I can't have you Susan Powell, her mysterious disappearance in the murder of her children, a killing an amish country, TED and an in other books. The book cover featuring this evening is a murder in my hometown. Was my special guest journalist and author Rebecca Morris welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview Rebecca Morris. I think Dan thanks so much for having me inviting me on. Thank you very much. I could not and this is a very, very personal story for you. And let's get right to this. Tell us a little bit about CORE Vallas Oregon to to let people know the psi size and the you talk about the racial mix in the city in

small town. I should say but tell us about the size and where it is, and a little more about CORE Vallas Oregon to introduce this story well curve Alice is, I mean Oregon is almost all except for, except for Portland and it's one of the towns in the in the Willamette Valley that the pioneers came on the Oregon trail and settled along the Will Amit River and in Oregon because of the what would be rich. It's been a college town, since I think the 1870s and growing what was basically an agricultural college into or in state university. The rival school bill is University of Oregon, which is in Eugene just forty miles south, so that uh main universities are pretty close geographically, but Cavallo

I mean one of the things I learned do during this book Dan, is that I I had no idea, you know when we were in grade school, we're taught Oregon history, but had no idea that there were slaves that came on the wagon trains to Oregon and that as a couple of his stories, describe it or he's always had a schizophrenic relationship with race and in fact southern southerners were most of the the group that came west, and what they wanted to do was create another southern state with slavery and other southern ways of life. And so that when, when Oregon gained statehood in one thousand eight hundred and fifty nine, there was a law that slavery was out, Odd. But african Americans couldn't live in the state. An it

remain. Portland even now is considered the whitest city in the country, and there was one you know one black student in my high school class and I think I think it's one of the contributors to the kind of the lead is and the town and gown, feel of of the college, which became, but it issue two in this murder investigation, because you know we we A white but but there was a class, a class difference that really kicked in you talk about October. You write about October 21st, one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven. Specifically. There was a couple

Dan Ackles, young guy thirteen and fourteen year old friend, Jim Crawford. We talked about the Blue River yeah and they spotted a body so tell us what they, what they were doing and what they spotted yeah and then the police response we introduce sergeant Montgomery Well, Dan Ackles was thirteen or fourteen. You said he and his cousin were fishing off. The dock. Dan's father had been a sheriff, in LOS Angeles, the deputy sheriff in LOS Angelus Anne, had moved the family up to Oregon and bought this marina. So the boys were fishing, in those days the alignment River was one of the most polluted in in America. It's also, I think, one of the two rivers that actually run uphill. It runs s to north. So anyway, they

wind up the river later, but in nineteen sixty seven it was really salty and and therefore the fish that the boys caught well, the one time they they tried eating in a frying after meeting made the made the family six, so they just fish for fun. So Dan wins. You know fishing off the docks, and here came this body floating and he started to reach for it was faced in and he had this kind of irrational fear that well what if the arm came off if he grabbed it, so he let it float by, but he ran for his father, who of course knew how to contact him, the sheriff's office and the the city police and- and they brought the the body assure and and and it was the body of the Kitchell a seventeen year old high school student who had been missing for ten days.

Autopsies work we're done right away basically and another captain. As I get this pronunciation wrong. Hakima. And also talk about, and also right away, the district attorney Frank night. Is a corner doctor, Rosen Dollar involved what you say: the autopsies were conducted at the funeral homes. What did they find in those autopsies immediately yeah in those days, I thought that was really interesting. That autopsies were later bodies became. You know there is sent to Portland It was what they found index. Father and stepmother came in and identified him and then laughed, but he was, he was a little guy an he was

just five foot, two hundred and twenty five pounds, and you know I never unearthed any information that he was bully the door teased or anything. But he was actually well liked across across the different cliques that that had formed in high school, but he had been beaten up pretty badly at both his eyes were bruised, his hands were bruised. You know there were defensive bruising on his body and he'd been strangled and they concluded that he'd been strangled, not so much with hands as with an arm or a piece of cloth, and then he'd been put into the ever probably in the spot off

off the main rd in car Vallas off the main road means only a block or two, but where two rivers meet the Marys River and then in the will laminate river and then he'd heed. I don't think he'd surfaced for a few days, but eventually had surfaced and floated, probably probably just about a mile from where he's put in the river to the marina. So he put up, as you know, he put up a struggle and you know know he been at a party that night at a home of some older kids in the early, two who sort of provided place and alcohol for teenagers that wanted to go there and that teenagers would chip in a little bit for beer or liquor. But he'd he'd been in a scuffle that night he the snow in the last couple of years

this life for getting into fights. He especially of you know, girl, fist fights with his father and in fact the very first police officer who arrived at the scene at the river when they were bringing the body assure had been an officer have been called to the Kitchell home more than once to break up fights between Dick in his father. Now you talk about his father Ralph and his stepmother. Sylvia is real mothers name Joan, but at this time you say that he was discovered on October 21st night

one thousand, eight hundred and sixty seven. However, when was he reported missing and by who tell us about this? Ok, well, the party he had been at was ten days before, basically the night of October tenth early the morning of October 11th, and he was missing for five or six days before his father, and step mother, went to the police, and this is just one of many things that I found really shocking an actually quite different than probably how something would be done today, but they waited an under shrugged off his his disappearance and thought. Maybe he'd gone to the coast with friends, and you know sometimes they go. He in friends would disappear for a few days. But finally, when he didn't show up on on the school day on a Monday

Then they they went to the place, no one least speak with Ralph and Sylvia, they compile a list through these. The parents, a list of dicks, friends and then they do find out about this party and about the behavior of dick and his reputation and how this might have happened. Also before we talk about the Montgomery Detectives Montgomery and how can name a going in to this party and speaking to the people that host of that party, let's talk a little bit about who Dick was mentioned of the rocky relationship he had with his father, but tell us little bit more about Dick and this idea that he had friends on the other side of the tracks. You said he was well liked. Tell us a little more about Dick and his life with Ralph and Sylvia. Yes, well, I I knew

dick a little bit. We went to the same junior high school in those days, junior high school, and he signed two of my yearbooks and there's at least one photograph in one of the yearbooks that shows he's in my, I guess my social studies class and he did sign my yearbook and an eye right that you know, I don't know if it's because of him, very chaotic childhood, or in spite of it, but he was the only boy and or one of the only boys in junior high school to show us a picture day. You know in a shirt and tie, and he he was really he's been a sweet kid. I interviewed a lot of his. You know close friends for the book and they still call him. You know fifty years after he's been, do. They still call him dicky, which was his choice, good name and his his closest friends he made in grade school from

You went to Harding School and he also went to a couple other grade schools in core, but they. We're on summer baseball teams. And he was on one call the crocodiles and innovate the way they spent their days outside of school. Was you know, riding bicycles from playing baseball and and the the the main issue for for Dick and his life was that his parents had divorced his mother moved back to Washington State where she was from on occasion he would live. In Washington State with her and then he I don't know would be sent back to Cabela's and when Dick by

by our senior year. He was his second step. Mother was living with them, so that was his father's third marriage and his father was a small business owner. He owned at a shoe repair shop in Corvallis and they did live south of town. Where you know, geography is kind of important and balance. It says a lot about what kind of social class you fall into and south of town is, is you know just last fancy and and simpler and smaller in a modest homes and no no shame in that, but his parents. He was an only child, but he had you know a couple of step: brothers that sometimes lived with rows and Sylvia and him, and sometimes they didn't and dick quarters. It just became kind of you know, lost when he reached

this teenage years. An you know, because there wasn't well, it was summer baseball, but he had friends who would take up snow skiing in the winter. Well, it couldn't afford anything like that and he began to drip. His his parents were drinkers and spent a lot of time You know bowling or at the moose Club or the Elks Club in CORE Vallas, and that was kind of their their social life and dick had a car that meant the world to him. This baby Blue Ford and he had a jacket and those were the most important things uh kind of suede. You know most his two belongings that were so important to him:

Anne on Labor Day weekend, one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven. So just before the party he went to in the last night of his life, he cracked up his car an been arrested for drunk driving and resisting arrest, and you know this kind of a rather spectacular accident kind of right in the middle of town and one of his girlfriends

with him in the car? And so his first mention in the local newspaper was, as this minor he'd been in this spectacular car rack and because he was a minor, his name wasn't mentioned, but of course, a few weeks later he be murdered in and then you know, his life is kind of a fair game, and one of the things I think is so interesting is how our hometown newspaper, you know. Well what about this or or didn't write about this? I think the town was embarrassed, but a murder. You you talk to you right about that, to explain to our audience that you say is very small guy five foot, two hundred twenty five pounds, but despite that is, I guess, his family life and again he say turn different when he was a teen became much more angry.

You right about that. Fighting was not foreign to him whatsoever. Maybe explain that yeah! Well, I I now I know, and I think I knew at the time how naive I was. I mean when I, when I was researching the case and found out that these parties, and even the night Dick disappeared was it was a week with a school night. School nine. You know, I know where I was I was at home and but he had, he was He was gone a lot because he wanted to get out of the house and that's what he and his friends, not in common that some of his friends. They wanted to get out of the house and they wanted to get outer core vallas and but but gets was you know. Dick was really he had friends in

in all all all areas of life. It began to split that a bit more and in is teenagers in high school as so, as some of the kids he grew up with in grade school became more serious students and and you know they were trying to get into good colleges, and they were in and we were in. You know: college placement, advanced placement classes and dip who you know was just on average or a little bit below average student was taking. You know, shop and car mechanics and things like that, so his friend, I, I think more aware they stayed friends with him, but they were busy with different things. They had less in common

in their teenagers and they'd had in common when when they were young- and I think Dick was lonely, he he certainly the result. All around the house, but he became known, as you know, as a partier and there are a number of places in town where it was. You know BC to see or to be seen one of them with, this drive in which didn't have indoor seating. It was you your car to eat, and so kids move between the cars a lot to talk and socialize, and he was called the mayors seatons, because you know he was there all the time and had this huge network of people but had begun to fight a lot, and one of the other things I was naive about is that

at least- and maybe this is true. I I've never been a teenage boy, but in his you know his group there were these fights and he would. He would try to pick a fight with somebody or you try to have a friend of his fight this kid for him, and I don't know how often there actually were fights, but he talk about it, a lot and and all through the police report. When the two detectives interview, Dick's friends,

This is that it's a theme that keeps coming up that Dacast so and so if they would fight so and so for him and an I just, you know myself didn't really know that that was one of the things that occupied at least some teenage boys days and nights. It was thinking about fights, but,

I assume there's some- you know some psychological connection to his relationship with his father. In all of that is that you know he he was angry and he was the night he showed up for that party. He was, you know, looking forward to some kind of altercation he was also drunk and- and there was an argument that says the party and- and you know it- I always thought well that list of lead to just as a parents, but it was actually something quite different. Let's talk about you Detective Montgomery and Hakima an assistant chief assistant

and then cheaper right and they went to Paul and Judy ever it's home. Yes, now who were the people who were who were there, and it is really interesting what they were doing when the tech? and it's in the chief went there. What were they doing? Who? they're on the list given by Ralph and Sylvia to the detectives. So who was on that list that was at this home the day after this event? Apparently happened

Well, I think, you're talking about after the day his body is found, which is ten days after he disappeared the day. The bodies brought out of the river late, that night d, a and the assistant police chief and the two detectives go to the the home where they know they can bend at this party, the last night of his life and what they find. This is pretty much the make up of the people, who've been there the same night is dicks last night, there's a pool and Judy Evertz, who are the raiders of the house, and who are also from our high school, but a little bit older, two thousand two hundred and twenty three years old there. A couple of there are seventeen year old boys and and milk and Marty tucker- and there is this twenty three year old, Doug Hamblin, who is kind of, has.

Cation around town as a trouble maker, and they turned out to be the exact make up of the people. Who've been there the night Dick was there and they were playing the same game that they played ten days before, which is called was it called pass out just drink drink until you pass out an Now, on the night that Dick was there on the tents they had been, you know probably a dozen teenage other teenage kids come in and out. You know by some alcohol and leave on this night. Ten days later, it's just the key. You know the key. Five people and they they're playing the same drinking game. The thing I thought was really interesting. Is you know the detectives tell them? You know your friend dick who you're the last people to seem alive. Probably you know he was found dead today murdered

and nobody flinched Maybe they'd already heard it because it was twelve hours after the body been found and what kind of travels fast caballos or a small town, but or maybe they had first hand, knowledge and weren't surprised, but nobody seemed very surprised and their names were on the list that, for some of their names, were on the list that Dick's parents came up with, but they're also other a lot of other names on the list, including the two girls I mean he's been dating, and you know some some boyhood friends, Anna boy and Dicks neighborhood, who you know because they didn't have his car because he smashed up, he needed a ride to the party October tenth and a neighbor Boyd. So they had a long list of people to talk to.

I think they knew very early on that. There was something about the people at that at that Party house. Now, how did they find out about exactly about the car ride and the drop off and at the same time you write that their their hearing rumors as well at the same time as they begin their investigation, who gives them information that sort of direct some towards Doug? Yes, well People they had, you know they had talked to begin talking to people as soon as you know, they found dicks body and a new, I believe they knew before they got to the house on on the 21st that Doug Hamblin had given

Dick a ride and you know- and he had to admit that, because everybody knew it and the for ten days, the among dicks Group, so they didn't know he'd been murdered. They didn't know what happened to him, but they knew that Doug handling had given him right after the party, everybody knew that Doug Doug had taken three boys home who needed rights asked at midnight on that night and two of them were like north of the city and Dick was the last person and Doug's car, and so people knew that Doug had given Dick a ride. So he what he told the police is that Dick wouldn't tell him where he lived, and so Doug said he just dropped him off

on a downtown street that was, incidentally, a block and a half from the river, and so they we use early early on that this Doug handling, who was twenty three, had probably the last person to see The rumors that were circulating early on were about you know, gangs. I mean we're not talking, you know, inner city gangs, but groups of kids from Maybe you know the smaller towns e of CORE Vallas topics are ballast that comes in cruising through town and seen him are picked him up or something or that something went wrong like that, the the series it in fact my classmates for fifty years- I mean we, we as soon

His father had killed him, the dick had gotten home. He had one last fight with his father and his father. Maybe even accidentally killed him, and then he gotten rid of his body. I mean I thought that until last year Uh we never had any idea that that the focus was on Doug Hamblin it just it wasn't made public at the time it was made public that he among dicks friends who who had polygraphs the DA

he never told. So it wasn't. It wasn't, of course, in the Gazette Times that Doug it failed three polygraphs, but now we know he did and so really for fifty years we thought you know his father had had killed him and maybe in an accident, and so he he was somebody that the police needed to eliminate an you know Dick's, father and step. Other balked at taking polygraphs, but they finally did, and so they began to you know they gave polygraphs to a lot of a lot of the teenagers and began to kind of window the the list of suspects, some suspects when asked for a lie: detector test test, the

act at least according to the police, in a suspicious manner, when he was asked for a lie: detector test. What was his response? Dick's father? well known, a dog eight, oh god, no dog will got to create and it's interesting. He you know They they told them that might that they showed up at the house that they wanted to do polygraphs, and he agreed and within two days the detectives were driving them to Eugene, where the police or sheriff's office had a polygraph examiner and even from after the first test, the examiner said that Doug's test was inconclusive. The newspaper story, the next newspaper story about the case after the first big story that Dick and then found murdered, was about

the detectives taking this group of kids too to have polygraphs and it named them even the seventeen year olds and it named Doug, but it did it just said you know the headline was they seemed seemed pass, so the da knew there was problems with drugs polygraph, but they weren't going to you know admit it in the in the newspaper at that point and they never did they just wanted to. You know they were going to put some pressure on him. And so and he consented to telegraph. And finally, they did a third one at the state police headquarters in Salem and that's when the examiners said you know most likely. This is your killer. You talk about the difference in at that point And only hired an attorney and the attorney said you know you either

call Jim. Are you back off and they couldn't? They didn't think they had enough to charge him. You talk about the difference in forensics and police procedure back then in the 70s way back then or late, 60s, even par late sixties in so you do talk about how the police handled this case in terms of the difference on where the crime we've seen was or the supposed crime scene or what was his term and as a crime scene on fourth and B street, where some He dropped them off, considering there was ten days later for things to happen like nature and rain, and things like that, but also that there was other things like a code in the car So tell us about this code in the car, then the idea of again normally what they would do with processing a car that would be

they would want to search and process. Tell us about what the police did at that time and again what they would have done today. Yes, or even what they what they might have done then and didn't so. The first thing: Dick's father, you know well he's a dentist find the body he says, where's dicks coach, because the queens in, as you know, Calgary boots and jeans and and tee shirt- and you know the the police at the she won say what we we didn't see it, because there's no coat show word spread really quickly. You know where was sticks coat and so, when the police, this is a test. The ever it's home, days later, they ask you know what about Dicks Code. And Doug Hamblin. Actually,

volunteers and I just think he did because it would have been worse if he caught lying. He said he found a code in his car. You know that week and I thought it was a child's coat, and so he given it to a nine year old, neighbor boy- and he did he got it back from you know the police didn't go, get it, which you think they would do they next time they saw Doug Doug it brought it. I brought it to them, so I mean one of my theories is that when Dick realized he was going to be fighting with Doug, that he took office code and put in the car, because that was a cherished belonging to him. Of course, six hundred and nineteen, six thousand seven hundred and sixty eight beef,

dna testing it's before an awful lot of things could be done, but there again and now routinely. I was surprised that they didn't see his dad Doug's car once they knew he was a suspect. They went and looked at it walked around and looked inside. Didn't see anything I think I mean I know today. The car would be seized and there'd be some kind of more detail. Examination of it, the night that they showed up at the Everett's house? Ten days after the murder? They looked at Doug's hands, and but he worked at a metal, foundry and

you know his hands. Were you see dirty well worn anyway? They didn't see anything. He didn't appear to have been. You know, hit in the face and they they just couldn't tell by really looking at in ten days later. But what really stymie them is that there was There was no, they didn't have a crime scene. I mean we don't really know if he let dick off at fourth and b streets downtown they look around there. It's a it's would be a quiet area at night. It's there's kind main street through there, but not a lot of traffic. At night, the state employment offices on one corner there's some apartment buildings, a couple other small businesses. There was you're right. The ten days have passed and probably rain, but they they didn't

find anything there. So they don't know where the crime was committed. They had no, you know, friend sakes. They had no confession. The really didn't have much to go on. Besides the polygraphs, which, of course, sir it in miscible in court, the in a murder evidence is supposed to be kept.

Indefinitely, and there was some things and I'm not sure. Maybe I should wait to go into that. But but when a cold case detective looked at this, you know, forty years later there are a lot of things lossed or missing, and that happens when decades pass. But it would have been nice if things had been kind of better organized. I guess. Now you have the two detectives of central figures in this Jim, Montgomery and Dick bill to Montgomery, yeah right and they have to not focus on on Doug Nessus, early they've got him in and they come to the the realization that there's more to Doug as a suspect and that's, hence the Incas of polygraph and then up to the third one where they get a conclusive,

at least from the examiner response to say this guy is likely responsible for the murder, but these two detectives have to go through every other, lead and and talk to everybody involved, not only at that party, but ex wives and and the babysitter had hockett. So what do they? How do they proceed with this and. Hello. It's interesting how much they Slide on in those days, this inadmissible polygraph test to be able to go further with this. So given that they rely on those polygraph tests, once everybody's, given the go ahead and cleared, how do they proceed with and who do they look at as potential other suspects in this yeah. Well, you know I didn't. I was reporter from you know many years and I've been writing true crime books for

state or ten years. But I continued learn how important it is that people we don't have tunnel vision and focus on the one suspect it it turns out. I mean that that is that's really important, because they, if they miss their opportunity with other people and with other paths of the investigation, it maybe too late to go back so they were, you know, pretty open minded about it, should explain. It was pretty short investigation by early one thousand, nine hundred and sixty eight, so the murder was in October this. This had a pretty short life

because there was no were much for them to go with it and once you've talked to in on the thirty or forty people who knew these people, it's just there were there were no reached and I think the thing that that Doug Hamblin with LOTS he about was that you know he wasn't nobody. Nobody drove along. Nobody saw anything, you know they were trying to find witnesses or or look at different scenarios had dick been hitchhiking and picked up or you know, was he was he seen after Lee,

Doug's car and he never was, and then in nineteen sixty eight. You know the detectives were pulled off on to other cases just to back up for second, the other thing about the investigation procedures at the time that, of course, it's pre cell phones- and fax it to date. You know people have we leave an electronic support. You know there's nothing, we do it can't be traced- and it's it's just so so interesting to remember that in nineteen sixty seven sixty eight, that that was not the case or what the detective I

talked to recently about another taste called life patterns. Yuan. Maybe everybody knows that term, but I didn't know it as far as the police investigation that you look at somebody's life patterns and in this case they would have looked at dicks and they would have left it at hamblins and the other, parties involved to see well, what did they do? What do they do differently where they ever seen after this moment in time? You know when was the next moment in time, what what would they you know, what would Doug usually be doing the next day, and could they look to see if he, you know, showed up at work, for instance, and if he changed his life, patterns, so they they preceded by really talking to everybody that the girl who was the live in babysitter Propala kind had

near the night of the party or she'd, been there and then left for a while. They went to California need to find her. And you know there are some people that that there was they moved away very quickly, and you know it just seems to be kind of coincidence, but they checked they checked all that out but So really they were left with their main suspects, where here's, the fellow who slug three polygraphs and and then there's Dicks Father who as you know, very certainly to the police. The other thing I found most shocking is that never wants Dicks Father call or show up at the police department and nag them and say what's going on with the investigation in my son's murder? Never once now they dropped in on him at the shoe store, and he in Sylvia didn't like that. Much

and you know, thank Goodness, Jim Montgomery, took all these detailed notes for the police file because there's absolutely perfect lines of dial log of them saying we know our rights. We know our rights, you can't you can't hound us like this, and they were not very sympathetic. Parents or people in this case, and it appears Dick's father, didn't kill him, but but it was it's hard to find sympathy for them. You write about his visiting Martha Taylor, so the detective start Martha Taylor and they ask and

she says why he left, but also that he was attending church now. Why is this important and what did they detectives yeah? Well, what do they conclude or determined from this bit of information yeah? Well, Martha Taylor was third of Doug Hamlin's wives and she, you know, been very open about about things with me. She married Doug when in the 1970s and she two daughters from another marriage and and so this is the later the cold case detective in two thousand and eight goes to talk to her, and I don't well. They didn't course she wasn't.

On the on the scene, I mean she didn't know Doug in the 60s, so she she didn't know about then, but she told them that and they had heard at the time that Doug said Only dog handling was suddenly attending a church in core vallas. After the murder, an appeared to be possibly confiding in administer at the church and that Minister accompanied Doug to the thing holographic vans in Salem. At some point the detectives went to see the minister and the minister told them if you're looking it Doug you're. Looking at

right direction. So that was a pretty big same to hear from somebody that Doug was confiding in, and so you know it's a little sticky with what kind of journeys you know what kind of different attorney sherron what administer share. But the minister shared that with the detectives in nineteen sixty seven or one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight, so Martha knew that Doug had Basically, what she knew is his third wife was that this incident happened and Doug said you know he didn't do it. She went to an attorney one year to deal with a custody issue from her, her former marriage and the inter. He said oh you're married to Doug Hamblin, the

only man to get away with murder in Kavalas, and so she think she was very much capable of it. You know he was. He was a brute. He drank a lot, he got angry and he he had problems with rations and he never admitted it to her, but she thought it was. You know capable of it. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop this for a second to talk about our sponsor blue apron, skip meal planning and get straight to cooking, with blue apron, enjoy delicious meals that are great on the grill, like honey, chipotle, Ray's chicken with public. And lime rice add smoky depth to your while enjoying the warm weather and getting those perfect grill marks

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two detectives regarding the chances of doing that. Well, he said then- and he says today that they're just You know there wasn't any conclusive evidence and of course he was afraid that they tried, On manslaughter murder charges and he was acquitted, that was it that that was their their one shot and because you can't be retried and he was you know they tried pudding. Some pressure on Doug, not not in a physical kind of way, but you know they would meet with him alone and hope to. We have and the detectives I went home every night, just really frustrated one of the the that came through when I began talking to my class. Tweets about this murder was.

Overwhelming sense that if Dick's father had been prominent in the town that this would have been solved, that somebody would have been arrested and affected an when I began to look into this three years ago I mean I was really stunned, how widespread that fee He was that this was actually about class in in our college, town and kind of the haves and have Nots Ann. I asked you know that there wouldn't have been a book. These two detectives in the d, eight, who are all now you know in their eighties and still you know, have very sharp memories, and I asked him about the you know what have made a difference it takes father was University person like like my dad was- and they said you know, of course they said no, not at all. They they were

you know in a lot of agony over not being able to bring they've, never had they've, never had a case, they have been closed. They never had a murder they had to close, and so they, you know, took this personally, they were all every one of them had young children themselves and it you know it just. It really became personal for them to to try to try to close this and try to find some justice for free kick, and you know the G ages said there wasn't enough there and you know a cold case detective later on and I'm sure we'll talk about had a different opinion. But you know it's not enough to be the person who gave

somebody it right on the Nassau last night of their life. You know they didn't know who killed him. You talk about in two thousand, I write about in two thousand and eight. It did to enters into this story. Is the detective Tyson Pool Corvallis Dance police, the he inherited a cold case, and that was a nineteen sixty seven murder of the Kitchell um He was assigned take a look at this is the first is forty years later. So, yes, how did he approach

it's this differently and then, when it with this different approach, what do the fight yeah? Well course he was. He was young, detective he'd been trained differently than you know than Hakama and Montgomery had been. He had had even specialized forensic training, so he comes to it, of course, and you know decades after we know about dna and everything, so he he felt like the case had just come. Have been forgotten and what he did is. He was a great believer in organization and he was, he is a very methodical. Way of dealing with the cold case, which is which pays off for him. Usually an it seems very simple, but just to you know, begin at the beginning and get everything organized for one thing. Well, what he found is

the original police report and the notes they've never been they've, never been typed up. They've never been. You know, captain the formal record, keeping of of any kind, the audio tapes that have been made with Doug Hamblin when they met with him alone. One on one not only were lost, they'd, never been transcribed. Dicks clothing was missing, photos that were taken at the river when the body was first discovered had never been developed and the negatives were missing.

Now that I've found actually isn't unusual. Usually photos aren't developed until you know the da or somebody asks for them, but but in anyway the natives were missing the photos of never been developed, the audio tapes were gone, but Tyson Cool continue to think that that dog could have been charged, and so over a couple of years, the cold case detective was pulled off to work on other things. He came back to it. He went to talk with Martha Taylor and also talked with a man. Who'd been a neighbor of ducks. First. Why and who? Who said that

Doug had confessed the murder to that to his first wife, who is deceased now, an Tyson pool was ready to talk to the da in two thousand and eleven about about bringing charges. An duck. Hamlin had just died, and so that was you know he was too late yeah. So the case is considered closed. It's called a closed conditionally.

I'm sorry closed. Exceptionally, is the term meaning it's close, because prosecutors either declined to proceed or because of the death of the suspect, so in this case that that's probably both of them. One of the things I thought was so interesting. Having spent my life and casting my first few decades is, is what news coverage was like at the time that there was never ever the story in the paper about you know who who dug what I'm I'm sorry who Dick was and today you know: we'd, see tv cameras with the school or there'd be stories. You know quoting dicks coach, Or a teacher or is shop teacher or his friends or friends who played baseball with him

you know what I mean and we we right get a glimpse of who was this young person, and there was nothing like that in my. I just don't think you know the media work like that, yeah so you know people reading about it in the paper. Never really. You who he was or what happened to him and incredibly sad thing is that their stuff, really considering yeah yeah, I mean he, he didn't hurt anybody when he drove this car into the mailbox and and and it was pretty minor stuff.

And there were never any. There was no drugs. There, probably was you know, pot around caballos in the late sixties, but I the Fifty eight told me the very first arrest for any drug related thing in Corvallis was, on the college campus in the early seventies, when you know as a as a guard in a interested, the university smelled. You know smelled pot from a car, and that was the very first drug arrest in for Palisades is rather team. It's interesting. You write that Tyson Poul met with John Lee, the man who had contacted police in the 70s saying he had information about dicks murder. Can you say that a note? His name was stuck on the back of the original case file.

But it was cool that met with that Poul met with him and. In in like, as you mentioned, he had said that he lived across the street from Doug's first wife Teresa, and he said Teresa told them many times a day. They committed murder and he had tried to convince him or her to go to authorities, but she said she was afraid. So, yes, well she's been married to Doug twice they had divorced and then free married. They had a. All child and and and dad's mother actually was married eight times two six men, so that kind of ran in the family, but to re so was was afraid to go to the police and

and I think you know and Doug also has a brother who wouldn't communicate with me for the book, which is absolutely his right eye. I think they might be the only people who you know, whoever knew exactly what had happened, but you know the police did conclude that it probably it probably was an accident. It probably would have been a manslaughter charge that they dug and it got into a fight. They'd probably argued in the car, be

for you know he he pulled over somewhere. I don't think he ever stopped it. Fourth and B street. I think he went over where it was dark near the river and the passenger side door of Doug's car was broken so that you had to slide across. You know the bench seat to leave the car and he told police he had to drag dick out of the car and I think he dragged it out and they began to fight Dick stop to take off his jacket. And then you know Dick was beaten and strangled, maybe with Doug's arm, and I think Doug panicked and took dicks body to a place with hidden access to the river nearby and he had been in trouble. You know allow-

his life in the camp when one of his and as an adult was in was in some trouble off and on, and you know if he, if he kept to himself from all those years. I can't imagine it was. You know pleasant. I don't want to disagree with you, but what I found weird and you didn't address, it was the story that. The dick wouldn't tell him where he lived in this small town and uh it to me. It seems there is no good reason why Dick would be that belligerent. Regardless to say the is giving you a ride but you're, not. Tell him where you live, so I thought that this idea of the accidental death- certainly I don't think he planned the murder, there's no evidence of our

I I dickensian inkling of why we do that. What do you do you? Will you state a pretty good case that he had a violent, the pencil e and that certainly Dick was Sittard sort of a in in the asset that it acted up at this party as well and and the structure of the holes? I actually agree with you on all of that, and in fact Doug was not. The person did have the consultation with the party. You know, he'd had a confrontation with Paul efforts. The host and and its various kids at the party had various recollections of this but Douglas and that person at all and God you know done and his own problems and he and yeah. I think I

I don't think he intended to hurt or fight fight dick at all, but he found himself with that. Yeah Dick was being a pain in the ass and so pulled over somewhere. Let him out of the car. I suppose he dreamt up the you know. You wouldn't tell me where I live, because he couldn't think of another reason to that he pulled over his car and it got I mean everybody knew that had been. You know the last person to be dropped off in the car and why didn't get home well, because something had prompted Doug to pull over the car, but in who they were. You know both pretty unhappy people and then they've been drinking, and I think it just got out of hand

But what do you think about, regardless of whether these people past their lie, detector test and what was interesting? You write that Judy, which was there at the today was not considered a suspect at all, not whatsoever not given the the lie. Detector. Test, even though her husband was another people were and then the reaction that you have, which I think is just very very striking that when they came again ten days after after they discovered the body that these people were playing a drinking game which seems to be convenient again, if you, if you really want to do kind of bolster your nerves or get up the nerve, be able to answer questions and yet how on earth could those people not know if, if, if the town believed at some point, that Doug was the guy? Why, when those people at that,

given all the circumstances believe dog get done it as well? Well, I think I think they probably did now Judy ever has passed away. I did talk to call couple times. And you know. Remember a lot of details, and you know my way is not to to hound somebody, but he he people am I supposed to feed through reading the book

He knows this now the people of the party describes what happened at the party differently than he did to me. You know he says that he got into a scuffle with somebody. Well, numerous people at the party told police that they got into a scuffle with Paul, because it said something rude to Judy and Paul, took him outside and grab him by the neck and putting up against a pillar and and gave him a talking to. You know that's what numerous people at the party say happens. So I I thought myself that will maybe Paul efforts was, you know, going to be a suspect, but.

But he wasn't but hi hi, the other thing that, as far as I know date, the ten days later, when the detective showed up at the house and found the same small group of people, they never asked Doug. As far as I know. Well, why did it take you nine to drive four miles drop off these kids and and come back doesn't return. I don't think I said that yet I think we can under the house the night of the murder am I I'm just so curious will. Did he stop at his place, which was an apartment, downtown and clean himself up? Did he need to do that or when he got back to Paul and Judy's? This is this is within. You know minutes

model. Did he did he ask for band aid to be washing self clean up in their bathroom or and they were never asked? Well, what was you know demeanor he returned to the party on October tenth eleven, and why didn't? Why would it take him? Ninety minutes really to drive three kids a couple of miles and there's no there's no indication that they looked into. You know what was happening. Well, I guess it was part of that missing time was when he you know he was fighting Dick and deciding what to do with the body. What are the most fascinating, optimistic things in this as we're reading it as a mystery unfolds in this. Are they going to be able to get Doug Dog for

this murder? Is that in two thousand and eight when Tyson Pool came on the scene, he went and got advice as to whether that minister could be that they could question that, minister, after all those years- and he did, he talked G a about. Could we all the minister to say what he told in the v eight in two thousand eight said yes now that wasn't the case in in nineteen sixty seven, sixty eight, I don't even I don't know that they considered. Could they can tell the minister to to reveal that

I mean they, they knew it. It is, he he told the detectives and the detectives you know had told the d A, but I'm not aware that they you know had a conversation about is that is that evidence to take to the grand jury, but in two thousand eight the da thought they could it's interesting because he had voluntarily made that statement which would allude to so. With that alone, I think they would have made at least some progress with him in terms of saying you're going to have to uh. It did at least this statement if he, if I said no, I'm gonna stick with the confidence valley. We know you confessed to somebody and I, I I'm not aware that they ever went back to Duggan said you know, I don't think,

never said your minister, his ratted on you or we know this, or we know that there you've confessed somebody and if I see them next week when I'm in Korea, alas, I will ask them that I'm not aware that they ever confronted hamlet with that, and I assume the minister wanted it kept private but and going back to Judy for a second. I think the reason she wasn't polygraphed is is just kind of you know: Genitor out janitor gender uh you know the conclusions at the time that you know she was. They had a baby, they had a year and a half year old trial. She was a young woman. She was, I think she was twenty one at the time and you know

they so she wrote, along with them to Eugene but was not polygraphed, and I I think probably today that she would be, but you know she got a pass. Back then it was interesting 'cause. You write that they would wanted to ask her questions, so they asked her questions off the record, but again no record of what she said and and, as you know, Shia and and talk to her- and you know that makes sense because to get away from her husband and the other guys and

and she you know it matters that she'd had a relationship with Doug, and so you know just not we're not sure how much you know has been you about about that north division. The pastor, the distant pastor, the not so distant past, but but that would be that would be quite in portent in terms of a motive again if she were to be polygraphed and that they were to have an inconclusiveness if they were to be able to imagine that she could be a potential that she potentially new something and she is DIS, respected at this party and Doug drove the person that DIS respected her again

yeah, it does show, are you've got a good point. You've got a great, really good point, and especially because you know most the people that I've talked to who you know take a polygraph test. I don't think I've ever talked to an Ex actual examiner I've. I've read the reports and and these reports, when I found them in a work quite thorough. As far as what exactly was asked in the way it's fast and I've talked and talked to people recently who had taken a polygraph and a lot of times. It's not you know it's not, Did you call? Did you kill the Kitchell? It would be? Did you did you see the Kitchell after twelve midnight on this date? Or do you know what happened or

and maybe they do to some people. As more pointed questions, but I have been interested in how kind of roundabout they can be- and I don't know if that's a way of sort of more subtle testing or more settled test results, do you know Dan? It just seems like a lot of questions are kind of round about. Do you know about or do you know what happened or or you know, did you see can put in the river that's what I think it's a way. I think it's a way to measure compared to the control where innocuous questions or in sent? Questions are given Yeah I made up that with questions that will roundabout confirm things without a confrontational

question for at. But I don't know I mean this book at least she it's quite a bit of light on exactly what kind of questions. So I know that, especially in the last year or so that so many books that I've covered on the program refer to how much the s relied on those polygraph tests, despite them being in and possible? They really did use and then rely on them and and Billy even the results and as you show in this book, just with a different with the police, saying you want somebody else to examine, didn't go with the same example. They went with another examiner and hence that uh the examiner came up with. Different opinion and, as we know, from all the cases and documentaries that have come up lately that sometimes there's a bias going into that? room and to say you know, so it's and a bias that can't be controlled, and I think

That's what I'm hearing in a lot of in the last year right yeah, I think time past and they gave duck ambling Mork polygraph tests that there was probably a biased building but I I really had known much about about polygraph tests and I didn't know that you know like the detectives would go to, early enough that they could talk to the polygraph examiner and go over what questions to ask and suggest questions and that that could evolve over time and also they'd be checking with

for instance. If if, if that Hammond told him one saying in an interview, then what do you say the same thing during a polygraph exam or not? I mean it. It sounds very simple and basic, but but I I didn't really know that. Well, the detectives could suggest questions because of course, how would this polygraph examiner? Now you know what that what they were trying to find out, he had to be he'd have to be told and, and then it was very different questions that they asked. You know Dick Stepbrother, who you know they. They fought a lot and and Dick actually picked on him. Although the step brother was a little older, so he was kind of a suspect for for a day or two and and the kinds of questions they ask him were were quite give

it bought, maybe maybe framing it as if he'd been observer too the murder you know, and that might well beyond this six father. You know me to this. The step by there's been a long with it. He also is so that when I started looking into this three years ago, there was nothing at the police department to be found. There was no no case, filers just nothing, and I knew that in two thousand and eight that the cold case detective had met with fright night, the DA in the two detectives and a couple other detectives to talk

about the case. So that's another thing where the cold case started with detected started with talk to the people who were there and, thank goodness, you know they were still around, and so I knew that he held this case file in his hand. The cold case die, so when I was urging the police department, you know they went through the basement, they went through their boxes, they thought had been lost or costs. And finally, I said you know in two thousand and eight Tyson pools, At this desk, and then he left in these on the force in bend or would you just look in his desk.

Because I knew he had it in his hand in two thousand eight and they looked and they found it while you're pretty good at that. Pardon yes, if you're pretty good, just acted yourself. This is where you just have to keep. You know looking in and I don't think police department ever happy ever about somebody looking you know and a close case, an open case, a cold case. You know I ate a. I think it's a. I think it's a but anyway we found it and, and so, and I think I think it's a matter. I think it's actually a lot of it. You know I mean it is. It is in the public domain. If this, if there's a police case,

I've had to pay sometimes hundreds and hundreds of dollars to get a copy. But you know, and I've had other stories where you know there is complete the LOS there's another story, I'm interested in in Oregon, yeah a book and and that that just doesn't seem to exist anywhere, including the state archives. Sir, anything, it was a really important case and in nineteen sixty one and the first woman sentenced to death in Oregon and there's just there's no records at all. So you almost need there is a trial transcriptions that we paid about dollars for sure you have to have some kind of record. No. A huge part of this is that this is a murder

that occured in your hometown. Hence the title of murder in my hometown and we've skipped over basically what you and your classmates you mentioned at five hundred and twenty five people graduated in nineteen sixty eight, and everybody was affected differently. But you say everybody in Corvallis Vallas, although students that were there, they were affected then tell us when this happened and your interesting true crime and journalism and writing and and how this

affected you and to the point where you became involved in this, is to write this book and involved in this case interviews these people that were involved these detectives and be a tell us, go back as you do in writing. A book tell us how much a heart. Well, just over three years ago, I put something on our class facebook page our high school class, page this page that- and I don't I wish I could tell you- which one had started, thinking about yeah and maybe because I was between bucks or something- and I put something on our Facebook page saying you know, I'm a true crime, author and I've just been thinking about, did Kittles unsolved murders, and I heard from Johnson literally dozens of classmates who said they had never forgotten it, never forgotten that it is never been solved, never forgotten that he just been forgotten and that there never

of arrest. So I went down three years ago, and course I've been back to my hometown many many times over the years, but started going down every couple of months and the first time I met with a group of about a dozen classmates and just to talk about. You know their memories of deck of the murder and to talk about, young and growing up in Cabela's, and then I found that the da and the two detectives were still around an. I started talking to people because you can't do a book like this, but dicks family. You know his parents for deceased and the step brother Anna

didn't want to want to speak with me and so there's no family to talk to, and but in fact dicks friends were his family. I was there the other day why the book is dedicated to our high school class of nineteen sixty eight, it's because that was dicks family literally. So one of the first themes that that came up in the facebook posts and then when I started going down there and meeting with classmates, is that this idea about you know if his family at this father been prominent, that it would have been different and I'd always wanted to write

something about Caballos and- and I will say it's- it's rather frightening to do a memoir, and I do call this. You know part true crime, part part memoir and I said a lot more personal face and I thought I would in the book, but but I think, corrals became a character in the book and to write about Cabela's character and to write about you, know its history and then what I did was follow the lives of several classmates through that through our senior year and ones that knew Dick will and ones that didn't know Dick will, but also seemed to represent things that were going on with our generation, and he we were really. You know isolated town and there weren't

lot of political demonstrations. There wasn't really diversity. You know social class was important, and we were very, very highly educated group, because we had teachers with lots and lots of graduate degrees and I'm sure it's. The school district is always known for. You know having the best and the brightest, but we also had other kids who who didn't do as well, but so I try to tell the story of nineteen sixty eight just pretty pivotal year in America and how you know my classmates we attended. We marched with Martin Luther king was assassinated. That Oregon presidential primary used to be a lot more important than it is now now that Iowa New Hampshire kind of taken over. But you know Richard

Nixon- was campaigning in Oregon for Alice. Robert Kennedy was Cabela's literally the word spread. Our our graduation evening party was stopped for the announcement that Kennedy Justin shot in LOS Angeles, so the the the the bigger world was beginning to come in to talk about and and along with knowing you know, Dick's murder went unsolved. You know that was that was the year we were growing up. You also talk about which very the sound might be surprising to some people but did talk about your interest in true crime as well, and how that came down Nike, I realized, as I was writing this, that, while my my your grocery, shopped I'd be over. In a section of the Safeway reading. True detective magazine

at a pretty young age that I was just kind of fascinated with. You know what a specially how the women were portrayed that you know either well. They were always a gift and I just got interested in that and then I didn't know I was interested in Chrysler to crime. For many years I worked in Reed Tv News in New York City and in Seattle, in Portland or and also was writing for magazines and newspapers and and then my very first book about a girl missing from Tacoma WA, since one thousand nine hundred and sixty one and her neighbor TED Bundy as a teenager,

grew out of an article for the Seattle Times that I was writing for and yeah and they never been a book about that case and I got to know the girl's mother basically spent the last year of this woman's life with her interviewing are and and found. Whoever else is still around. That is known to I'm sorry, no one kid Bundy and known him as a as a young person, and so that was my first book and and then hi the opportunities kind of. The door opened to writing more about true crime, and I I could have told you I was going into doing this, but it's it's pretty interesting and I I think back to when I was reading you know true detective is a twelve year old, for you know, I always say this is

original with me, but the crime is the end of the story. I mean I'm really interested in what leads up to it and who the people are. You know both the perpetrators and the victims and the community in which a crime takes place, but I've, always you know, sort of my favorite part is the story of a crime. It's very interesting how you portray the event October 11th, ninety sixty seven and then the response school over the public, the PA system that was announced that there had been- and then later how the information came out and and how the kids talked among themselves. But the parents didn't talk to the kids. Unless today, that would have been like you say, trauma counselors there would have been more discussion at what this meant to the students and yet the

and there is nothing for himself and I I think it's a really interesting example of how you know how we we've changed as a and you know it's my brother and I always say you know we- we were loved and we great parents, but we weren't noted on that will really was the time when you know you could go out and play and disappear for the day, and- and you know why do bikes and and we just weren't policed. You know it's due today, but no parents didn't talk to their kids, since even the two women I spoke to who were his girlfriends at the time there. Parents didn't sit down and talk with them about what this you know, how they felt about this kid who they dated, murdered

You know, one of his friends told me that you know he he heard, as he heard somebody say. You know good riddance and everything and he just went home to his bedroom and cried, and I think I think there were his friends who really selfish like that, and you know and went to the funeral, and then there were his acquaintances of the people he drank with who you know they talked more, but on a more of a gossip level with among themselves about it right,

it didn't seem to be something the family talked about, then including my own, and my parents may not have known that. I knew him or just I went to school with him in as that's true, but you know today we well, I don't know you know. Helicopter parents and all that we'd be we'll be taking the temperature went way of how this affects our kids absolutely. I want to thank you very much Rebecca Morris for coming on and talking about a murder in my hometown was a fast break and your incredible personal involvement in this story congratulation congratulations

also those that might want to take a look at other work of yours. I know this is a wild blue press release, but where might they look give a web page or facebook? I do have a well fine. Three factors: T Morris dot com. And very proud of number of books. I've done in Amanda, which I talked about and and the book about Susan Powell, who still missing in Utah and her husband who killed himself and their children. The book is, if I can't have you, and that was fascinating, because I hate stepped into the her her life. As a you know, young Mormon in Utah, and to learn as much as I could about her her life and then Greg Olsen. I did a killing in amish country, together about a very rare murder among the amish in two thousand and nine and so again learning about

The Amish is winning their trust when they don't usually give interviews didn't you know, usually winning the trust of people is pretty important to these books, and- and I always I don't take that for granted. So absolutely it's incredible access that you do have a one. Thank you very much and hope to talk to you again soon. We were back to work. You have a great too much. Thank you. Goodnight thanks.