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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. The victim was Gary Triano. Tucson real estate developer with an influential friends and enemies After finishing a round of golf at a country club, he went to the parking lot and found a gift in his car. The

crudely made pipe bomb that blew him to pieces, the bomb it was RON, Young, a Colorado, bad guy, wanted on weapons fraud charges the price could claim that the woman he was dating at the time promise to pay him four hundred thousand to murder her ex husband, her Name was PAMELA Phillips and aspen socialite divorcee and mother of Trianos, two to children, receive two million dollars upon his death, but evaded suspicion for more than a decade. Finally, halfway across the globe in Austria, authorities caught up with the blonde bombshell igniting one of the most explosive cases in Arizona history. The book we're featuring this evening as a socialite scorn the MER of a Tucson high roller is my special guess, journalist and author Kelly drove welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview Kelly Drobin. Thank you very much for having me.

Thank you very much. This is an incredible story. Let's get right to how you came to be in a position why you felt spell door why you wanted to write this book a socialite scored. Well, I was fortunate enough to have gone to law school in Tucson, and I was, I had just become a lawyer at the time that Gary Triano blew up and so Tucson is is a very eclectic sort of fat, it's touted as a safe place to live, and it's so much more reminiscent of that wild West and of the socialite seen it said an hour from the mexican border. It's a good town to disappear, and- and so when this bombing happened it it was sort of like a nine eleven moments. You know everybody knew where they were when this happened, because it was so shocking and in NAM. So I was that

It was a lawyer at the time and in two thousand and five flash forward RON Young was named a person of interest on America's most wanted. It was a show that I watched pretty regularly for crime stories and in a strange twist of fades jade. Cabins, who was the subject of my first book running with the devil, was a very close friend end of the investigator. On the Gary Traiano case. Detective Gamber and detected Gambhir had asked him to help him orchestrate an American most wanted episode that employed people to look out for RON Young, and so when RON Young was, you know, eventually arrested and finishing his trial for the Gary Channel. That's when I knew I had to write the story. I was positioned in the location where I was living in Phoenix at the time, but I was very close to Tucson. I knew the bombing I mean I had been

around when that happened, and it was just you know it was right. It was an incredible story and I thought I've gotta jump on this. So so I had already written two books before I jumped on a socialite scorned, and you know this is a a and this is like a writer's dream. You know to go in there in mine. The story and be able to write it from the point of view of basically two sociopaths. Absolutely now, let's talk about November, first, one thousand nine hundred and ninety six, as you do the actual bombing MER itself and you describe Gary Triano is a land developer real estate mogul, as you mentioned, just had his 55th 53rd birthday, six with two two hundred and forty pounds tell us where he is. We talked about the golf resort so set the stage as you do in this book. Talk about the board, Lincoln Town, car.

Yeah, I should do in this book. Describe this. So Gary Triano Trono was he. He was a man who like to portray himself as larger than life. He was a man who he didn't have. Well it's it's kind of unknown. Whether we had mafia connections. Would you like to portray himself as someone who had mafia connections? He had serious money, he was taking private jets to Vegas. He was insisting that he be called Mister t when he was. You know social socializing with people he hung out with the likes of Donald Trump. He would go, go to Paris these and events and buy rounds of cocktails for everyone. Tipping waitresses, ridiculous sums of money. He was like a character out of a Hollywood movie in one of the most striking things about him just to set the stage for this is his

his home will give you a great indication of how he viewed himself. He had portrait of himself in his home as Indian Chiefs, and this is everywhere. You look bronze reliefs at his head. He was, he was just a larger than life person, so the murder- and when this happens it was on he led an explosive life, and so he had an explosive end. He played golf off at the La Paloma golf resort, which is a pretty swanky place in Tucson or was at the time, and he had he was kind of a creature of habit. So he had a regular tee time and he would go there and play golf and so on on the date that this happened. He was playing golf and it was. He was on his way to his birthday party, which was actually a surprise birthday party, but into his Lincoln Town car. He which we left the windows down,

and there was a bag like a sack sitting on the passenger seat, and he thought it was. This is obviously, but he thought it was a birthday gift. So he reached over to open it and that's when his car exploded and he exploded, and it was a sensational crime. Has the explosion. In broad daylight there were a ton Witnesses were old, dining at the fancy, restaurant right above the golf resort, and the explosion was so large that there were pieces of the car that landed in the swimming pool. There were you know the car itself is still. You can still view it, it's it's just completely overpriced and Gary Tron and obviously with polarized, so it was crazy

explosion and it had the hallmarks of a mafia hit, and so it started investigation into you know over thousands of suspects. It was one of these crazy who done it cases at magnitude proportion, so it had at a daunting list of potential suspects. The timeline for this murder. It spanned a decade, because whenever you have a bomb it to bring in multiple jurisdictions, multiple agencies trying to track down. You know the origins of the bomb, because Gary live this larger than life existence. He had

so many enemies and so many people that had a motive to kill him that it became this. This crazy landscape for this one detective, who, ironically enough I mean there are lots of irony- is when it whenever you write a true story, but this this case had a ton of ironies because the detective this was his first, your second murder case ever in the department- and he was almost single handedly tasked with the the with the job of finding the suspect. So it was. It was just really an incredible cry machine and then an incredible investigation that followed- and I should mention to you that- the the fact that it happens- we- not only do you- have this explosion in Tucson, which I I indicated a little earlier. It's sort of known as this eclectic and safe place to live, but it's also the check

on four reputed mobsters who retired there, because it's consider this sort of open territory among mobsters, so they come and they can. They used a common conduct, illegal activities without violating a hierarchy of organized crime. So you have the famous air going to Republic reporter Don Bowls who was targeted in nineteen. Seventy six by the mafia and he was blown up outside also killed in a car bomb out kind of a hotel. So there were all kinds of You tentative links to to the two kinds of crimes and that sort of set this in motion. As you know, perhaps a mob hit. You talk about the detective Gamber games. Gamber he's only been on the force six months and he got this case and he's the one of the central figures in this story, and you talk

about right away. The juxtaposition with these ATF agents coming into this resorts based with the black helmets. Then the bomb sniffing dogs so was Qu. At the scene and you say the suspected terrorist strike or a mafia hit, so something that they were on a custom to, and you talk about right away. The Gamber partner sergeant key Saint John, and they are seeing very they're getting reports of Nichols leaving the scene but, like you say, There's so many leads so many conflicting reports, and then you talk about PAMELA Phillips at tell a little bit about her background is attractive. It. It is tell us a little bit about PAMELA Phillips and what she's doing before she meets. Three adults So PAMELA Phillips is Gary Trono's Ex wife.

They had been divorced couple of years actually before this bombing happened and the way that I like to describe PAMELA Phillips is sort of the where the real person inside the costume she was- and I I describer in the book- and I think it's fairly accurate, given that the evidence that was presented in the case- but I describe her as a sociopath, she is a figure who used and abused people to get what you want it and in what she really wanted. Was money, no matter the cost so case in point she she Mary is Gary for money, she divorces him over money and she eventually killed him for money. She she felt. Like a. She comes into the marriage, she has two million dollars in assets, and so she, when she targets Gary Erie at the time, had about two million dollars in assets. He was vault in the casino

world to indian gaming, casino business, and so she believed that she was getting into a marriage that was on equal par with her. She brought money and he had money and they were going to build an empire together and so. What eventually happens in what she learns pretty early on in the marriage is that Gary is not what seems or who he seems in fact he's embroiled in about seventy four lawsuits. He is on the verge of bankruptcy. He owes everybody money he owes his turning money. Ninety one thousand dollars to an attorney owes sixty eight thousand dollars to his mother or thirty thousand dollars to a fitness club and he's one point: eight million dollars in business debts and loans, so he's really not who he seems, and so PAMELA discovered

as I said, early on in the marriage, and so she feels very entitled and very scorned- and that's really the why the title of the book is- is pretty apropos so when they get the they have a number of fights over child support, alimony and and because Gerry has filed for bankruptcy, and he doesn't have the access that she wants believes that he had. She is incensed over this and she takes him back to court multiple times and but the the key part of this investigation and why detective Gamber, ultimately Z, I was in on her as a possible suspect is that during the marriage, Gary purchased a life insurance policy and he insisted that and the life insurance policy, coincidentally, is worth two million dollars and he insisted that she be the beneficiary or the trustee

his children were the beneficiaries, but she was the trustee over that until the children reach the age of eighteen, and so these the premium for the life insurance policy was not paid by PAM Pam, as she always did, and very consistent with her character. Would commission other people to do her bidding, and so she had in trust. Did her good friend, Joy minecraft, with the task of paying her life insurance premiums and so oh joy. Bancroft was a person who had over the years, loaned PAM a lot of money because Pams wanted pans, sickness is, or ill this is that she always believed she had no money, even though she had money and never worked a day in her life. When she was married to Gary, she always believed she was just impossibly poor. So she can make

and Anne Bancroft to pay the life insurance premiums, and so around the time of the bombing him discovered that joy had neglected to pay the premium dealing with the AC super premium, and so the life insurance policy was going to labs. So, oh here she had orchestrated this murder and expected to recoup what she believed she was entitled to. She brought two million into the marriage. She believed she was entitled to the back and she was going to get it, no matter the cost, and so you know her payback was going to be the life insurance policy. So when she does cover that joy being had not paid that premium, she almost went into a panic, almost all stroke yourself insane and with on the phone trying to get the premium paid. You know trying to have a grace period, and so eventually she gets that premium. Pay

Aiden. Eventually the life insurance policy pays out, but that becomes the trigger for detail active Gambhir because usually the spouse is the number one suspect in a murder case, that this was an unusual case. They had been divorced. She lived an asp in at the time she had already established a different life. An asp in so she wasn't even in Tucson she had no proximity to Tucson. In fact, she Gary, had this plan where Gary would have to fly out to aspen see the children. The children were sometimes flown from Africa to so it's very complicated. So she was not an immediate suspect because she wasn't even in Tucson and they they couldn't fathom how she could possibly have. You know orchestrated a bombing or constructed a bomb, so she was very far removed from the actual murder until they active member, had exhausted and uh

for weeds and kept coming back to that life insurance policy. You talk the complication in gambier inexperience, an experienced homicide detective, but also the amount of leads and also. A lot of the efforts by. By herself, to be able to be able to stifle the investigation and complicate this sheet also talked about the restraining order she had against Gary and she weave the story about people. Look looking for him wanting him, I'm sleeping with a loaded gun. Tell us a little bit about the story she gave and what Gamber heard from her about her husband ex husband. She was in PAM was very, very crafty. I kind of shoes almost crazy. Like a fox, you know she she knew how to keep detected. Camping.

Amber at Bay, and so she was interviewed on multiple and uh times, and what she did and a lot of this bar out to be true she created a story that Gary was a wife abuser that he had volatile temper that he was in with mexican deals that had gone s and they fraudulent transactions that created sort of death and whether or not those actually panned out are you know. I don't know that Active gamble was ever able to support that, but what she good was she convince detective. Gambar that, Gary had and uh enemies that there were this MAC, we can deal where almost a cartel was after him

and had left him death threats and so Gary started to carry a gun and she created, a story that Gary was sort of paranoid and thinking that everybody was following him and had a gun hidden. For the pillow of his bed and one night had actually held it to her, and so she was a victim of domestic demand. Violence. So that was the portrait that she portrayed to detective Gambhir. She also told game: for that gear. He had mafia connections and that maybe this was a mob hit and he should be investigating the these connections are those links and so over the course I mean this. This investigation lasted a decade. Ann tective gamber would go down various bunny trails. You know to see whether any of them were going to pan out and none of them actually did. But he got calls everything from

potential mafia hits to Hell's angel connections. You know in any had to investigate every one of them because he just he can you never know until you you go down as funny trials, whether or not you can eliminate them as a witness, so she was very however, in doing that in in painting that picture that they Kerry with a volatile person, never pay back. His debts owed owed a ton of people money and that part was true. He did a ton of people money. He did have failed to This deals, he you know, was involved in casinos and things that sir he could have led to people having a beef against him. There was another Keith aspect and whether or not PAM and planted this- or this was detected Gambhir's own finding, but he became a a potential back, a man by the name of Neil Mcneese, who was an acquaintance of Kerry's and he agreed to purchase

an item at a charity. Auction Neil paid Gary each pay, Neil fifty percent, and they tried to get him to go into business together, but eventually Gary Neil for alone, and he used pams wedding ring as collateral on the wedding ring was worth two hundred and thirty five thousand dollars and Gary wanted and eighty five thousand dollars loan and so Gary switched the ring, and he gave me cubic zirconia ring, and so there was this whole Backstory that meal you potentially had a motive to kill Gary, because he was obsessed with that. You know that the bait and switch that garia down, and so they were there all kinds of stories like that. Pam concocted to kind of throw Gambar off the pass on and what was interesting about it was, you know, one of the two amber is investigating. All of these leads. You have the eight Yeah and the other federal agencies investigating the bomb. So

so one one part is investigating the people, your investigating, the actual you know, singer of Def, the bomb which which happen to be more sophisticated than most it was and usually long. It was stuffed with red dot powder. It was the same kind of powder that was used to reload shotgun shells. It had six volt battery lantern, which was very popular in the 70s, and so they were trying to get a profile on the bomber. So that was what was going on on the federal level. So you Imagine all the movable parts with all of the various characters involved, and so that was, I think, Gambhir's challenge was. He was dealing with. Pam, who is you know, a very skilled, so a past, knew how to use. People knew how to manipulate people in new, how it to twist things to serve her own advantage.

How did she respond to campers polygraph request and what need to do so. What did he say to her as a result? Well he had a at least. I think three interviews PAM over the life insurance policy and there I detail that pretty well in the book, because it's just so so striking her responses to him she's, very evasive, with his questions She can't recall now whether she agrees to take polygraph or not, but Gambhir. Basically, as to her, you know it's kind of crime investigation, one hundred and one you know if somebody doesn't agree to take polygraph, you know they're pretty much a suspect or they're pretty much guilty, so she she's very evasive, and the whole time that she's being in

if I camper she is deflecting. You know, and basically going back to you or not. I, Wasn't there were we've been divorced? You know, Gary's got a multiple enemies, so there are actually almost there are startlingly revealing about her character and and who you know how she operates. You talk about her nice Melissa is told by Gary's lawyer that he thought PAM Pamela did this. Anne Melissa gave police a list of shady characters, authority should consider do also talk about a couple friends that were to meet Gary the night,

for he was murdered and also somebody that set up the golf date. So detective Gambar had his hands filled with trying to investigate this case as you as you mention yes yeah, and that was actually complicating. The whole thing was that there was the surprise party that was planned, and so, as you can imagine the irony of that is the invitations had gone out and on the invitation it says, let's roast Gary, which, course, is very ironic, since he's blown up so detected number also had to figure out who attended that surprise party, whether there was anybody that was held back. You know whether there were people that knew Kerry Schedule and strangely not even appearing with a creature of habit on this for killer tee time. He had actually changed his schedule, so somebody I've had to have known. You know

you have changed the schedule and so so detective game. I had to look at you know the list of possible suspects or people that might have known that might have played with him. You know Gary had a golf partner that played with him. So there were, there were a number of sort of how secondary characters that Gambar had to exhaust as possible leads, and I, when Melissa gave him the list of players, you kind of get a a picture Gary. As you know, he had he it's so many enemies, so many Patel people and I in it sort of comes with the territory of somebody who is that connected that involved in different business deals. And also somebody who was you touting himself is fairly wealthy. So he was a target not only for you. He was a persona, but also for Two he may have pissed off during his business dealings, so yeah,

it was. It was a completely exhaustive list and it went from everyone from his cpa to his golf partner. You also talk about the investigated. Gary's former girlfriend Robyn, Gardner and did had some evidence that at least she was a little bit of person of interest. Teller tell us what they talked her about and what she had said to them. Robyn Gardner was someone at Gary, actually had a a child with, and Robin was another key player, because she also painted a picture of very being somewhat volatile. There was an incel and where she threw a vase at gear, really they got into an argument and she had thrown a vase at Gary. There was insinuation that Gary was trying to hey

her off or by her off to keep that the pregnancy quiet. And so there was a belief that that Robin may have gone a little nuts over that deal, you know to keep that pregnancy quiet, so she became a person of interest in Gambier and his partner slow down to interview her as well to find out a little bit more about Garian. You know what that arrangement might have been and whether she had motive and she also had had conversations with pam- it was almost like that become- I don't want to say coffee dance, but you know they were. They were sort of having a telephone communication about Gary and about how they had both sort of been scorned by him. So she became the the one scorned on the opposite side, so it became

this really intense gold web of Gary and his his relationships with business people and Gary and his relationships with his ex wife and his girlfriend and whomever else he may have. Get involved with. So It was really was a complicated tangled web of people that Detective Gambar had to sift through the almost like sifting through bomb debris, but you know metaphorically debris from from Gary's personal life that had just six. Loaded and in had to sift through all the all the peace, for that too, you chronicle the incredible pressure that this detective Gamber is under and puts himself under. It seems, but he also has the added pressure of hearing from

his daughter Heather. So what kind of prey- Richard is Heather, exert on Gambhir. Well, I think Gambar Gambar, probably experience is what a lot of homicide detectives might sperian switches just haunted by the fact that he cannot solve this case in what happens is Heather? Is it was a hound him, but Heather is on for years. You know why can't you find somebody? Why haven't we solve this crime? And you know he's he's just sort of shattered personally by this, because it's it's almost it becomes his it's the case of his car, certainly, and he puts aside everything he puts aside his personal

relationships his other cases and it becomes his life's quest to solve this case for and so he's actually very close to the family. Now he's close to Heather, but I think at the time he was he was really haunted by this and it his motivating factor. It was almost like, he lived, slept breathed finding the killer and you know, and so, as he would develop, one lead Heather would be calling him and showing up and saying white. You know why can't we find this person in and it's you know to some degree. I think it really it really ate away at detected amber and it really it destroyed him. It left him with this sort of she's feeling you know. If I don't find this person, I will have spent a decade.

Of my life, you know trying to solve something: isn't it it was. It was the whodunit of of his. You know trying to find that out, but it, but it was almost an impossible task for not only a new homicide detective but any homicide detective. It would have been an impossible case, and so he was like a dog with a bone. You know I've got to find out. Who did this now tell us. When and what are the circumstances in the finding? A Voyager Van so run young, and then I guess it. In order to back up a bit, I have to explain a little bit about who ran young was so, as I explained, PAM

Pams, Motis Operon Day was to use and abuse people, and so she got by in life by really aligning herself with particular men that she could use and do her bidding, and so when she decided that she was going thank you get back at Gary and she didn't quite know how she was going to do that. Yet she was living in ASP in and she was kind of hobnobbing around with the ski socialite people and RON Young was really kind of a bomb up in aspen and with con artist and he called himself an outfitter and he was almost hams mirror self. He is a very except that he was very gawky, the socially awkward, but what he had in common with PAM, with that he aligned himself with people that he, could use and abuse.

And so they had a very strange symbiotic relationship. Where's law He was useful to PAM. He could stay in her life and Long is PAM found him useful. She would keep him around so he became the hitman this case and she commissioned him to help her get rid what he termed the pound the three hundred pound gorilla. So he determined that PAM needed his assistance to help with the Gary problem and she hired him to do that, and so they can concocted over the core. For a period of time they they conspired together to figure out how they were going to do. This now It's unclear whether PAM knew that RON was going to use a bomb as the weapon if they had gone and they had tried various things and she I think she thought it was going to be a gun or rifle or something and they had taken it.

Trip together to try to purchase that so RON kept. What's really turned to the treasure trove of information, he kept every piece of document every the conversation, every fax, every hard everything that he ever had any exchange with PAM. He kept. And it was almost like he a pack rat, except it was probably a little bit more diabolical than he. He didn't want to be screwed over, so he kept the gun that they purchased. It was a sawed off shotgun. He kept it in a cage. In a van, he kept the postcards PAM sent him. She actually sent him on a hallmark card, said you know, I'm I'm. Basically it's the extent of I'm looking forward to the vision of our future. I'm looking forward to being having this is completed, I mean

wasn't a confession, but it was tantamount to that. You know that they had colluded together to do this, but he kept that conversation they had had he recorded and he kept all the recordings, and you know an he had documents from pams divorce in this Van because at one point he had gone down to to sign, scout out the assets this when he told him that he was looking to to find out where Gary might have hidden money. You know what what he's hidden assets work. So he was down. There is a quite a investigator and he had checked into a hotel hold down in Tucson at state for eighteen days, he used the name of a dead person to check into the hotel and he was sort of stock Gary for eighteen days, but those documentation the receipts rental car receipts. The divorce documentations is all kept in this van

and so after RON, there so much involved in this, but RON eventually steals from PAM and EAST about three hundred thousand dollars from her, and he believes in his mind that he's entitled to this, because he is quote unquote, helped PAM with her business and her business at the time was a strong. The business it was called star babies and so He believed that he was being helpful to her by help her with her finances. So he took the three one thousand dollars Palmera PA. What's that not realizing? That RON is the one who it is stolen from her, so she reported to Detective Crawley is with that the Aspen police department and asked to take the crown. We start investigating this she he PAM realizes that it's RON who's done this, and so she backs off of the fraud investigation, so crowd.

Lee is now on the hunt for RON there's uh fraud warrant out for him RON takes off from aspen and he It goes back to Yorba, Linda California, which is where his parents live, and strangely he parks. This van and with all of the paraphernalia from his relationship with PAM. He parks it on a street. That's like a blue talk from his parents in Yorba Linda, and he leaves it there and then ran, goes underground. So as detective Crowley is investigating this fraud investigation, he cs on the news that there is in a bombing in Tucson and the name RON Young pops but I don't even have this wrong, but it's the bombing and there's investigation, and so he starts to link up with. He finds this ban and he sees information in the band that links back to that bombing and so that

when he contacts detective Gamber Gambar and they start this whole application. They zero in on RON as a potential suspect. So it's very comp, heated convoluted thing, but RON Young is the one that he leaves this trail almost like, canceling Gretel trail, the popcorn that detectives are able to follow and, as the pieces start to fit together, that's how they start to zero in on him as a possible suspect. We're going to use this Kelly as a opportunity to stop for a second to talk about Ziprecruiter. A friend of mine who listens to true murder, just message me a few weeks ago to tell me about his first more experience with zip recruiter. He start this company about two years ago and they were doing very well small comp. He was staff duty is simple from years of working in the field, but he said

we recently tried to find in higher one new employee who is finally retiring from the industry, and he was having a hard time. So he said after hearing details about zip recruiter decided check out what to preclude was claiming. He looked at how Ziprecruiter worked and appreciate their choice of resume formats and really like the unique mobile apply process where, as promised, he said, he got a lot of applicants and very quick, really found. The new right employee was looking for. Now was it recruiter. You can post your job to over one hundred of the leading job boards with just one click, so you can rest easy. Knowing your job is being seen by the right candidates, then zip recruiter, posted smart matching technology to work actively notified.

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meanwhile you talk about in the book very, very fascinating. This years of. This investigation going on the relationship between RON, Young, Anne PAMELA, Phillips and our correspondence. So as you in the book, tell us about so some of the conversations and the deteriorating relationship that they over the years and why. Sure this was a fascinating kind of a bird's eye view into the minds of two social. She that were very similar in character. I believe, even though they probably didn't realize that, but so what happens? as you know, PAM hires ron- and I should say that the strange part about this case is that, while RON record Everything has every conversation, every email everything saved the one conversation that he does not record is the conversation where the two of them actually can

air to murder Gary Crown, and that was the subject: at the trial and just how strange that was that that is not recorded. So that's all sort of supposition, but what happens is RON Pam, PAM hires RON to murder Gary and he tells him you know. I've got this. Two million dollar life insurance policy, I'm going to pay you four hundred thousand dollars to do this and we're going to be done. What she doesn't realize in that's what RON doesn't realize is that you can't just write somebody a check for four hundred thousand dollars and be done with it, because it's going to be traceable, so they wind up in this crazy, situation, where PAM to figure out how she's going to pay him, and so every week they have this this dialogue. Where RON says you know, I want you to send. Did you send me my stuff? Did you send me my things? They never quite name it, but he's got codes for everything, and so,

tries to educate her on how to communicate in code. So he's got these elaborate coded emails that he thinks are going to disguise his whereabouts and pain. Emails are very telling it. You know things like PAM, Phillips, Meadow Aspen, yahoo dot com, you know, and so it's almost like a a Raphael. Here I am come get me so RON is very frustrated with her inability to understand how to be undercover. So that's the first problem, the second problem, till his email, her and he'll say you know. Did you get me my stuff? I I need sixteen or I need fourteen, and so what that means in code language to PAM. Is she just to get him one thousand six hundred dollars or one thousand four hundred dollars and the way that she has to do this is so convoluted because you can't just again, you can't just write a check, so she has to do

this elaborate theme or shield should go to the grocery stores will get three hundred dollars. Cash back and so that'll be part of the one thousand six hundred she's going to send IRAN so she's doing that then she's going to five different banks taking very small increments at a time, so nobody can trace her. Then she drives from aspen to this little town called basalt, which about twenty miles away, she has to drive there in snow and ice conditions. She goes to a Fedex drop box. She has to use a day persons name to send it so she's confused at one point she says to RON: I don't understand, I'm I'm a dead person? Might my sender and receiver of the same name? I know just is very confused by the whole logistic of getting him money and meanwhile, when she sends this money to him, she then has to tell him you know the stuff has been sent. I sent it on Saturday, so sometimes she misses the send. Eight in Enron gets angry and you know contacts are and says you know you missed my delivery. My Saturday delivery.

So meanwhile, RON is living in a mole he's living underground. He doesn't have a drivers license, you know, can't get a job, can barely rent a place but he's living in a I know, apartment or hotel room Florida, and he has to take a taxi to a money order place to pick up his money. So he's living in this very sparse most invisible existence for a very long time and so pam over the course of time really starts to lose her mind. She starts to go crazy because she doesn't want to have this connection anymore to Ronan she's living in this state of hyper vigilance and fee, because you know each cation she has with them. Is another opportunity for the law come down on her. So she We will try things, you know, or she won't communicate with him for a couple weeks and then it makes ran completely paranoid and crazy and he starts communicating more and so so then they have these

exchanges where they're, just they're perpetually locked in their own prison, which is the biggest irony of this story, is that she does this for money because she thinks money is going to free her Rhonda. Is it for money because he thinks money is going to free him, and yet they wind up locked together forever in this almost home. Music paradise of a marriage where they cannot get rid of each other. They can't go a day without communicating with each other and they have to communicate about the same subject over and over, and if one of them tries to leave the other one holds it over them. So it's almost like this, only a prison but almost like a blackmail situation and so at one point one uses that leverage on her, and he says you know I have so much stuff on you that you're going to wind up in a women's prison, one damn barry you, and so that's the one conversation or recording that that, force them both that links them and now some and so

So it's so neither one of them has the freedom that they wanted and it really is sort of it's an int sing exposition. What happens to people that are so greedy that that live their life dictated and motivate goodbye money. It's credible the exchange change that they have at some point, because there's so many delays and because she's gone complaining about having no money and having to deal with their kids and I and the prospect of having no money such a great fear. But then he has prostate cancer and is basically incre, probably dependent on weather on those payments. Be timely because he has. Major surgeries and cancer treatment that he can't be late with payments right

couple of exchange between these two People- Anne she after he please weather, basically, which wasn't his first approach. He doesn't send the money. Right right- and she did enough- that's another interesting aspect of this because you eat underlying this relation is always this this this sense with PAM that if he would just go away, if you would just die, I'd, be free, you know, and so she does have incredible power and control over his life at this point, because RON has to get surgery in Mexico because he can't go to a hospital in the United States and be detected, so it very complicated for him to actually get the procedure done and for him to have the cash that he needs to be able to get it done, so he is

very dependent on her an while he spiraling and again. You know if you want to look but metaphorically, he's literally being eaten up eating from inside out, because they can't sure is getting to him. So the stress of being connected to her, the stress of living like this mole, is getting to miss you. Really killing him and now she has the power to literally let him die off. You know so just two murders on her head, so that's almost her ticket out, is to be able to to let go and just let him be released. Meanwhile, what she's experience thing is even weirder where she feels like this need to have this sort of catharsis. You know clear her energy space she's very much into vedic astrology at this point. She's spending spouse of dollars. Going God going to Peru going to India to try to get healing treatments so that she can heal her

inner core and point in another ironic sort. You know life imitates art moment she gets. She gets a little bit disfigured on her face and so she goes overseas to try to get healed to try to get this. You know Her skin imperfection is off of her face and she can't do it and so, she's living with almost the in a she looks in the mirror. She sees herself becoming uglier and uglier, and so it's it's really an interesting an interesting exposition. What not only what greed can do to a person, but what it can do to live with a secret two of them share their bonded forever over the secret that they had conspire to murder another person so

You know, I guess it's. The ultimate story of crime doesn't pay because ultimately you're going to either die for, the stress die from here in or die from the prison sense itself. I think in a lot of ways, especially I think for PAM. He finally does get arrested. It's almost a relief because now she can stop living this lie. She can stop running she's she's caught and she can find we just sort of be this crazy person that she's become. And be left alone in a cell, and it's a very interesting portrait of what had Close to the human condition when they're put in these extr in situations, you also talk about the added pressure for both of them. In that she invites Heather to her home to live with her an he is He is cautioning her that she's going to read these articles, and these

articles in certain newspapers were pointing. To RON and PAMELA in not favorable light whatsoever so that if, we were to read these articles. That would be complete different attitudes. They thought both of them. And yet that was the added pressure as well. Now as you do, you talk about We get back to America's most wanted, and, the producers and the police net as a result, this was produced in February two thousand and five, but it was aired November, 19th, two thousand and five so tell us as a result, what happened about the arrest of RON Young well in another ironic life imitates art moment whenever you have people that are creatures of habit. This is ultimately what what nails RON I mean he lives. He lives this very invisible life and yet one of the things that he insists,

is his weekly chiropractor appointments and so he had these standing appointments and each time he went he would take a taxi. He would take a brief case which contained his gun, and you know his most precious precious. Possessions, and he would go in and he would have a chiropractor appointment, but what happened was he stopped paying his chiropractor and so, when America's most wanted aired, you know, It was. It was a brilliant move on detective gamblers part and it was also executed. In a way that I think it's sort of unprecedented for, for that show, and it really happened as a result of the connection he had with Jay Dobyns and all of them the attention that Jay Dobyns was getting for the Hells Angels case, and so they were able to get it aired on the show quickly. An

because of the national attention that I got the chiropractor's office and his chiropractor saw. This saw the you know. The episode contacted America's most wanted and said he's my client and by the way he hasn't paid my bill and and PS he schedule an appointment scheduled, so they were able to to come in and arrest him at his scheduled appointment. Based on that been that lead now. How do they proceed once they have him in custody? What's his demeanor like and how to see approach this? How do both parties approached this interview? Wow,

now run is, interestingly enough runs interview with investigators. I think, is very similar to PAM's interview with detective Gamber when she's being interviewed about. You know whether or not you're going to take a polygraph whether or not she had any involvement in their boat very evasive? RON, however, has an added twist in that he, his big thing in life. Remember he's lived this invisible existence for a while, and this is very counter to his personality because he likes to take credit for things He wants people to know that he's the one that orchestrated this, that he's the one that you the mastermind and things, and so, but it goes into this elaborate detail with that. Spectives about how he A gun aficionado he's like sold. You know, things to high powered people. He paints himself up as

almost larger than life character. And it's it's almost to the point of ridiculousness and it gets him in trouble because prior to him being arrested. For this case. He is he's arrested in in custody with a cellmate who becomes a key player in this case in the cellmate Android Nim is sort of as the jailhouse lawyer, one starts blab and brag to Andre MEM about how he orchestrated a bombing. He doesn't go into detail about who it was, but he said you know I'm I'm I did that and he insinuates that he's the one that may have been involved in another bombing in Colorado, so he creates this larger than life profile for himself. Which ultimately is his undoing because he has to be recognized. You know he doesn't want to live in this mold

distance anymore, and this is his opportunity to shine. So That's his undoing is his sort of braggy profiler with the detectives is not only bizarre but also kind of nails. His coffin. You talk about that. The detective O'Connor, along with his partner codes. They said that they asked he had watched the show America's most wanted any smiled slightly. He said so they really understood going in before hand how to play this guy and to play to his ego right. Yeah yeah he's a complete egomaniac. He needed to have credit. He needed to be the one that was in the spotlight in the limelight and and I and I suppose, that's the reason that he kept this treasure trove of information may not only as a way to blackmail PAM But-

also as a way to make sure that everybody knew he was the intelligent one. He was the mastermind behind all of this. And so how do they get to the core or of PAMELA's involvement in this in her husband's murder. Well, they had to? First, you know they found runs computer, which again, is strangely left behind and with all of the files that he has with PAM. So some of the files are I'll say before do you you know I did so. He keeps copious records where he's communicating with PAM, and so the detectives have to go through these thousands of audio. Recordings and the computer files in order to try to link these two together, they lincolm Finan

twenty. They have a forensic financial person come in and sort of track the money they link them the recordings they make them through, one recording and in particular, which is whether packing or RON talks about? You know you'll find yourself or when you're sitting in a woman's prison they're going to find all of this stuff for their they'll, find all of the secrets that have been buried, and so they say to piece it together, because the one thing that what one was pretty clever about, is you know he had this coded language with hand, so they they have a lot of circumstantial evidence, but they didn't have anything necessarily the smoking gun, and so you know so they they it's it, and these were the very please with a few audio recordings that actually exposed it because again RON needed to be recognized. He eleven gonna going to go, know down with the

ship and not be known that she was also involved. So so that's how they wind up p, sing it to the other, is sort of linking her back to that it's it's a process of sifting through a lot of this information, because if you I mean the thing that they were stumped about was how did she do this? Because she, wasn't a bomb maker. You know she's more bomb Sheldon bomb maker. How did she orchestrate this from ASP in and what was her motive means motive, I think it's pretty obvious is money you know they were all of these sort of movable parts as they were trying to piece together in and find her and then, of course, by this time she had already disappeared to Europe. She had some. At least one child in Europe at the time, and so they believe that she had gone to maybe visit whether a child, but

She winds up falling right back into the lifestyle that she had been so successful at in the United States. She finds her wealthy man in Austria, an so living in sort of a penthouse lifestyle which again is very unusual because you would think she would want to go underground. But she didn't so things start to circle and the international channel, so Interpol picks up a bulletin on her and, ironically enough, she is caught, a very similar fashion to RON at her limousine driver turns rations and pay her limousine driver, and so she, he sort of wanted for petty theft over there and so when that catches up to the Interpol bulletin, now they've got their suspect in. So they capture her in Vienna. They keep her in and the complication for the case in the United States is

they originally Pima County wants the death penalty, so they won't extradite as long as there's the death panel. In place. So they had quite you another couple of years. They couldn't bring her over, they had they had extradition proceedings and eventually they drop the death penalty, and so she winds up coming over, but even more complicated than not originally turns out. This wasn't going to prosecute who is an insurmountable odds. To get her over here and to build the case against PAM and The children. Begin Gary's, children and raw fitness child come together in a civil lawsuit and they win in a civil lawsuit is a wrongful death civil lawsuit. They win ten million dollars so all of pams assets.

Frozen and and because they went on the civil case that drives the criminal case. And it's almost this theory that you know pima counties not going to. They have to process Now there's no way that you know they can lose seven, the civil It can win and there's no criminal case. Companion criminal case. So that's what kind of fuels it and then they they bring her over After they drop the death penalty so very complicated case, all the way around you talk about the trial. Tell us a little bit more about the very first attempt to question PAMELA above this. Well, you mean when she's over in the United States jail. Yes,. She she plays The insanity card. And whether or not she's actually crazy.

I do believe there is evidence that she begins to lose her mind as case unravels. You know she clearly she's she's living a home in aspen, where she believes there now bats in the walls. You know flying through the home, so she's clearly got some delusions that point, but whether or not she Martin confident to the point where she can't stand trial as a whole other theory, but so she she presents herself she's mentally ill. She doesn't know, what's going on she's completely innocent, no idea why she's incarcerated and so her defense team has to through eleven competency proceedings and so she's tight in competency proceedings for a number at least a year, before they can even bring her to stand trial. So you know she's she's really,

Pretty delusional when she's talking to her lawyers- but you know you always wonder, is: is it crazy like a Oct again or is she really delusional all so they had to kind of sit through that before they could actually, Bring her to trial and what about runs, Young's deteriorating health, what's the state of that by this time, by this time he as he's gotten the procedure that he needs he's clearly in recovery mode, he goes to trial in he's convicted, of course, and he's winding up in the appellate process, but he he gets a judge sentence him

to double consecutive life sentences, which is actually illegal sentence, and so on appeal. It's corrected an it's still a life sentence, but it can. You know the judge was just. So incensed at the end of the trial that he he was trying to get them. You know the MAX the maximum that you could possibly get because it was such a heinous crime in it left such a human debris in the making. Now her trial, when does it begin, and what is the media response? We we haven't talked about the immediate response to this story, except in in the introduction that did this is big story, so tell us what the media responses at the beginning of her trial tell us what how it's framed. Um.

Are you talking about the I mean she's. Her story is, is profile, that's just splattered all over the press. Everyone's followed, the story, particularly in Tucson, and so the first Floyd by defense lawyer. Is moving the venue because there's no way she's going to get a fair trial with you know all of the media attention that's been put on her case she's. Our I'd been profiled, not only in my book but in a number of television show she's on Dateline. And so her whole story is out there before she even goes to trial, so that a problem for the defense team as they try to build their case and, make sure that she gets a fair trial. Then courtroom itself is a circus. When I attended even ran Youngs trial, it was a circus

who a very interesting for me, because I'm also a defense lawyer and so and I practice up in Maricopa County and it's very different. I don't know if this is a typical thing or if this is just for their trial, but the whole courtroom was cordoned off with sections, so the victims fan only attended almost every day of trial runs raw trial- and I have no doubt that they did that at Pams trial as well, but the whole almost there higher court room was reserved for them with a very large family and and then there was a piece of it reserved for the press and for cameras and journalists, and then there was a very, very small, almost standing room only for any public person wanted to come in, so it It was an unusual settings in the

regard. It almost reminds me a little bit of that. The Jodi Arias trial up in Phoenix that happened recently, but sign so I think for PAM to get any type of you know. I think that was the Concern of the defenses are we going to get a fair trial for PAM 'cause? It's just so. Everybody already has an informed on this. You know imagine trying to pick a jury for that. So and then they had to come up with a different defense, obviously than than rons. You talk about some of the witnesses and what they contain made it to this, and you talk about Heather, tell us just so of the highlights of some of the testimony that really but nail in the coffin for her PAMELA. Well, I mean she had people coming out of the woodwork. She had a witness who did not appear in RON's trial, and I cannot recall her name now. She was a

a woman that worked with PAM with a friend hers and she came out of the woodwork for pams trial and they brought her in almost as a surprise witness at the end and she the stand and said you know. This was something that she will PAM had orchestrated this, because it a conversation that they had had years earlier, and so she became sort of the smoking done for the prosecution where she just came out there and say yeah. You know PAM and I had this car station, and so I think that was a surprise to. I am certainly because they could find her. There were also a number of nannies that testified that I think sealed PAM's, coffin and Enron, stopping but more so games. Obviously, where one in particular Kevin Mcdonald's testified that that PAM

was absolutely living. The life of the socialite was, you know, had. Probably more than just a business relationship with RON that she that RON was against type. It didn't, sense that she was with RON, because she normally went for the very attractive swanky which wealthy men and RON was not that. So that also- suspicion on that, so it was it was interesting and then they brought in they're the the friends for PAM with that it was Neil Mcneese that you know, was actually the killer, so they they cast light on and and Gary's feelings with Neil me. So there was, it was a different case. Pam's case was different than RON's, but but certainly more involved

and what was her demeanor during this trial,. She. The only way really to describe are she mean you have to kind of before and after portrait of her I mean she is obviously known in the asp in circles as Asos Light, which meant she was always. You know very classically, dressed. You know a beautiful woman, she it's highlighted. Actually, her home was highlighted in one of that the papers up in in aspen. So you take that contrast that with her look in the courtroom, so she was kind of be looking, you know, obviously no makeup. She looked very much like we call it like a pro magic bird, no,

not really seeming to understand what was going on in the courtroom, whether that was an act or not. It remains to be seen. The interesting thing about PAM, and there was one story where someone describe her. It was at very early on in her divorce to Gary, where you know, take this woman. That's dressed to the nines very well put together would never be seen without you know, makeup and dolled up but she arrives at the courthouse dressed very frumpy, very dowdy, your hair in a bun, sensible shoes, sort of a dress that made her look like a bag. This was heard in wiener in court. So it was, almost like she was chameleon like she would dress the part and so or other people would like to surmised that that was actually her. True character is sort of a

your story of a of the witch you know the which is coming out out of her magic spell, and this is what she looks like really, so that was always I thought I had when I when I saw her in the courtroom that this was actually the real pan, this sort of crazed social traffic figure, not the glamorized women that she played. Not the part that she played for the real PAM was sitting in the courtroom. What about PAMELA's family at trial, What was the reaction to all of this? The hearing of everything the. You know I I didn't have a whole lot of contact with PAM's family, but one common denominator about that is, they were not surprised. There was enough in Pams, pass

to have made what occurred consistent in her life. So I I don't think that there was this sort of indignant rock in awe field. I think it was almost like you know we're surprised the and result in what was the media response, the inner to Pams, as she sends to natural life without the possibility of parole, and so she with convicted of murder and conspiracy to commit murder. And the media, I think, has

bonded probably the way that I would expect them to respond, which is you know she she got what she deserved. This was a sensational case. It was an investigation that destroyed so many people, and I I think I would- including the detective, and this was a career building k in a career ending case he retired after this, and I think it just it left family destroyed no, but came out a winner in this, and so I think it was one of those cases that you know ' come back to again and again, and certainly this program has. Is it 'cause. It's really an interesting insight into what happens to

people when you know sort of like be careful what you wish for you know the two of them it for money and wound up poppers. And they wound up in a prison of their own making, and so you know was it: was it worth it? No, you know it just to this path of destruction that you know now they both kind of got, what they deserved and it didn't, but it didn't help the reputation very much, so the victim sometimes is debilitated in death, or at least spared or some sympathy, a lot of him, but this wasn't good for the victim's reputation. What so this entire thing? Was it and that that's really the interesting part of this case, I think in a lot of in in

probably most murder cases. You have a sympathetic victim. In you have this sort of sense of. You know when, when the killers caught in sentenced in the is over? You have this sense of almost like. Okay. Now I can move on with my life. Now I've got some kind of closure, some kind of peace. In this case, it's very unsettling because you have a victim who he may have been larger than life and very dynamic and very magnetic personality, but hurt say whether he was sympathetic or well liked. He was. You know, embroiled in a lot of a lot of stop a lot of illegal activity and he did some not very nice things, and I think that all of that got highlighted in this very public arena,

so yeah. That is one of the strange things about this case and why I actually chose to write it from the point of view of it to Social passed because there wasn't it's not a, not a typical case where you have the the profile of the victim in you. You bring out that sort of sympathy, an emotional reaction in the reader or the audience. People watching this case. So so you have to decide how you're going to approach it and so yeah. In the end of the day it it almost leaves you sort of hollow. And you do talk about again- it's not a happy ending for detective James Gamber in anyway. There's no celebration on his part. It is, as you described in the book, I'm not Describing your actual words, would you say something that this is not just an obsession or this is not the job? This is a sickness that he has yeah

yeah I mean it becomes a sort of you know. At the end of the day, he's he's invested so much time in Enerji and so much of himself in you know just solving this and getting some closure and I think, what's very striking about it and what may be many homicide detectives could relate to. Is you really know, get closure. There isn't any such thing in a lot of this, because it the human toll on everybody who protest, page in an investigation like this is just you know, really indescribable, and so I think that you know Gambhir has to find a way to come to terms with that and he wasn't even recognized in his own department you know, and I mean he didn't even get the accolades or the credit that he deserved. I think I described in the book. There's an award ceremony, that's given in his his even want to attend. You know, there's nothing rewarding about it it

sort of took a toll on everybody. You too, we didn't mention, but you had. This was task for you to the warehouse, as you mention of evidence, graphics, photos, graphic crime, scene photos. Hundreds of hours of interviews with potential suspects, thousands of pages of police report volumes of financial records, Bob the bomb debris you had, eleven thousand emails did you, to look at or I consider this was big investigation on your part as well. Wasn't us yeah This was a really an astronomical undertaking, because, if you can imagine I was the full time lawyer during this writing of this book? I was a capital lawyer, so I was doing death penalty work I had to be careful because I didn't want to expn

those things. May I mean I was almost like a legal land mine as I was going through this, so I was working that mind all of what I felt like. I could do close and not just in the writing of the book, because I didn't want to unravel a ten year. Investigation by you know exposing something that may not be this call court I was fortunate enough to be given access to this treasure trove of information. I mean from a writers, journalists perspective. It was incredible to be able to sit there and listen to recordings an come up with a profile and formulate a way to sift through this information to make it a story that was how long enough for people to want to read it mean it was Really remarkable- and I should mention I mean I lived in Phoenix at the time, so I was driving to Tucson three times a week, spending, six or seven hours at a time in the police department going through that evidence in

going to the pallet court going through that evidence. You know it was just an astronomical undertaking at the time, but the case was absolutely fascinating, an it. It really applied to a lot of my strengths, because you know, as a capital lawyer, I was doing a lot of that kind of work going behind the scenes investigating you know. So it was playing to my strengths that way- and I just found the case so compelling from so many different angles, not only from the perspective of the two sociopaths, but also from you know the perspective of being able to bring the experience detective gamble to light, because I don't think that that's delved two very much in books, you know just and what he was going through. So it was very, very interesting experience. Yes, I want to applaud you for the incredible effort you put into. I guess. Demonstrating and illustrating this

especially the the life of and the course of this. What is it how it affected this detective, especially but of all the players involved? I want to thank you. So much for coming on and talking about a socialite scorned, the MER of a Tucson high roller, for those people that might want to check out other work or is there a facebook page tell us how they might contact you or look at other work that you have done sure, and then thank you very much for having me on the show you can find me at my website. It's accurate driving com, it's k, e double r. I e c r, o and from there. I have multiple links to Amazon and find all of my other books on their facebook, all the rest of that social media. So I'm out there and I should mention to there's: there's going to be a production on socialite score and I'm not sure when it's going to air

sure. But sometime in March, I believe, put out by super dope directions, sounds great will have to look forward to that. Thank you. Again. I want to thank you Kelly drove in for a socialite scorned, incredible stew, Thank you very much murdering here high roller. Thank you have a great night. Thank you Kelly. Thank you so much bye, bye.

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