A Voice out of Nowhere delves deep into the mind of a psychotic killer. In this tragic true story about one young man's harrowing descent into madness and murder, A Voice out of Nowhere offers a rare glimpse inside the workings of a criminally disordered mind. In the narrative style of non-fiction novels like In Cold Blood and Columbine, best-selling author Janice Holly Booth draws from court transcripts, eye-witness statements and personal interviews to go beyond the headlines and share little-known details of the tragedy. Fascinating, riveting and heartbreaking, A Voice out of Nowhere will will incite readers to think differently about the insanity defense and the awful consequences of untreated mental illness. A VOICE OUT OF NOWHERE-Inside The Mind of a Mass Murderer-Janice Holly Booth
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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a voice out of nowhere dells deep into the mind of a psychotic killer in this. Tragic true story about one young man's harrowing descent into madness and murder avoid I don't get the flavors of computer back in a big way, we're talking con king donuts, pumpkin, muffins, pumpkin, munchkins, donut holes, Oldboy, pumpkin, coffee, pumpkin, iced, coffee, pumpkin, frozen copy, pumpkin latte, scanned the exciting new cinnamon sugar pumpkin signature latte, which has got sugar and spice and everything nice. It's pumpkin flavored everything at Dunkin. America runs on Dunkin and pumpkin cake, ipods to limited time. Offer participation can kick it used under license set of. Nowhere offers a rare glimpse inside the workings of a criminally disordered, mind and sort of style of nonfiction novels like in cold blood and columbine best selling, author, Janice, Holly Booth draws from court transcripts. Eyewitness state
And personal interviews to go beyond the headlines And share little known details of the tragedy, fascinating, riveting and heartbreaking of. Voice out of nowhere will incite readers to think differently about the insanity, defense and the awful consequent is of untreated mental illness. The book that were fee during this evening is a voice out of nowhere in. The mind of a mass murderer with my. Special guest journalist and uh- Janice, Hawley Booth, welcome the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Janice Holly booth. Thank you Dan glad to be here. Thank you very much very interesting book and let's get right to this, this crime and the trial and everything that we really talk about this book. For the most part happened in the 80s in nineteen after one thousand nine hundred and eighty three, tell us why you felt it important to put this book out.
At this time. What may. We do or what compelled you to put out this book at this time. Well then I I was actually a court recorder at the time that the the voice out of nowhere case came into the courtroom, and I was really fascinated by how untreated mental illness can drive people to do really the unthinkable and I'd always thought I would tell the story, but it just it. Just never seemed like the right time, and then you know the last twenty years in the United States we've had just growing numbers of murders committed by people who were found to be mentally ill, and I decided when Sandy hook happened, that it was probably time to tell
story when the Aurora Movie Theater shooting happen. I knew it was time to tell the story to help people gain an insight into the mind of someone who is driven to do the unthinkable because of the mental illness that they said From now you say you were a court recorder and so you're involved in the criminal justice system, but you are also interested in mental illness can schizophrenia and psychology, and in the beginning of the book you talk about what inspired you to what again Gave you this interest in psychology of an interest, unlike most people's interest, so tell us about these incidents, incidents that shaped your life and direction in your life well When I was in my early twenties, I was working in the court system. I was also studying creative writing at college. At now,
right and I had a woman in my class who was a very good writer and she kind of disappeared from class. We never really knew what. Happened to her and then one day I found myself in court and she was brought in because and she'd been arrested because she tried to commit suicide by jumping off a bridge and she was the woman who had. This is my writing class, and so I she didn't recognize me, but I was you know, obviously very interested in what what had happened to her. What was going to happen to her and I followed her case- it turned out that she was she been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. She was not staying on a medication, she had, she had a baby and the baby had been taken away from her, and I watched her descent
And it was absolutely harrowing to see this former friend of mine be be literally railroaded into failure by the system, and she was. She was institutionalized at at a mental institution known as river view as she committed suicide, while under suicide watch their- and I was completely outraged by that that the system that was supposedly trying keepers
Safe, had failed her on such an epic level. Two years later, another one of my writing. Fellow writing. Students was murdered. He himself was a person with paranoid schizophrenia and was trying to make a life for himself. His roommate was also a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic but he'd gone off his medication and killed my friends and then, in that case my friends, death barely even made the headlines, and so I I just because and fascinated by this mental illness known as schizophrenia and really wanted to know. You know what might to be like you have to live under its spell. What what goes on in the mind of someone who is possessed by that mental illness and thus began
really a lifelong fascination with the disease, an a dedication to studying it and telling the stories. Not to give a little aside as well, this crime, in this incredible. Mass murder happened in the 80s eighty three Ann you move to the United States N China, South Carolina in eighty five. It's not really I'm just curious myself. Why did you move at that time and will be able to talk? about some of the study that you've done. Since you been a US residents and the differences from and and and the west and it'll be important to the story, I think as well. Well, I actually moved not from British Columbia to North Carolina, which we try to make sense, but I moved from thirty
Columbia to Buffalo NY, and I lived there for thirteen years. I like to say I did a hard time in Buffalo for thirteen years, but but only because of the snow. You know the people were wonderful of food was great but I actually moved because of marriage, and when that, when that didn't workout, I stayed Indiana New York for awhile and then had an opportunity to move to to where it's sunny all the time in North Carolina and I've been here now for about sixteen years. Now getting back to this incredible case and incident, tell our audience for those that don't know and pray. Seventy to a city that they even an international audience with no Vancouver British Columbia on the West Coast of Canada and we're talking about Coquitlam Columbia,
so just describe what this community is in the suburb. Is it a community outside of Vancouver? What's it really like tell us how big it is, and then we can see that the impact, two people that you know going to this one little hospital and and or from the same hospital and, like you say, meeting their their their desk, both people, you know right right. Well, of course, Vancouver is a huge and beautiful city coke one. It's probably a thirty minute drive from there and in nineteen eighty three. It wasn't overly developed, it's quite a bustling place now, but it was. It was a quiet kind of sleepy neighborhood. Actually, the
murders occurred only eight miles from where I was living, and you know just really nothing. Nothing. Much of any national import happened in these, what they, what they call bedroom communities. So when this particular mass murder occurred, it caught the nation's attention in such a big way for lots of different reasons. A it was
You know it was considered at the time one of Canada's worst mass murders, but it was committed by a young man who had absolutely no history of violence, and yet the crime was was gruesome, horrific and inexplicable. So you know it has it had those qualities of capturing national attention right away, not only for its the hugeness of it, but also because it literally came out of nowhere. Now tell us the background of the perpetrator, the killer in this case and the family The available information that you had on give us the background on this young man, because you said.
This man was very similar in age a year apart you and you, and he and tell us as much as you can about the family itself. Sure the young man was twenty. Two years old, I was twenty three which seem impossible right now down. I can't imagine not, but he was a young man. Who was, from a fairly large family, a very loving family, a family with no drama I mean you know: parents were good people, they worked hard to to provide for their kids, know mental illness in the family history. They did move around a lot. The young man, his name is Bruce, who committed the murders. He had some some issues growing up. You know he
So little bit dyslexic he was an identical twin, but he was diagnosed early on as being quote Amir Twin, which I know there are people in the audience gasping now, because that's not really a legitimate diagnosis for anything, but back then it was- and I think it kind of set in his mind this idea that he was always going to the offices. You know office. Everything that happened to him was opposite. What would happen to his brother, his brother? We had good grades had a horrible trades. His brother was very organized and neat Bruce was very disorganized, can kind of see shovels
and this diagnosis of being a mirror, I think, set into Bruce's minds the idea of of opposites, which would play a huge role in the ideology that he created his mind created the dilution created around the circumstances of the murders, but he was I you know up until the time that he started exhibiting signs of mental illness. He was very likable, he was, you know, really friendly, very happy, go lucky easy going young man who had had a lot of friends and really just didn't, have any skeletons in the closet. I should also mention- because this is this- is something that's going on in our society right now that we need to be paying attention to that. He was a heavy.
Have a user of marijuana and had been since grade seven or seventh grade, as we say in the US, and doctors did agree later on that that probably contributed to the severity of his psychosis. I wanted to ask. Where did he get the concept again for an in? Please explain a little bit more and I guess maybe with this question you will be able to the conch of this mirror twin. Where did this come from? and when was Bruce His family tell us about this incident, where this concept is accept by Bruce. But, more importantly, who is the person that explain this concept? Ok, well, his mother Irene. Was very worried that Bruce was not doing well in
school, even though he was trying very very hard and they were putting a lot of pressure on him to do better, because you know his twin brother was doing just fine and when, when improvement wasn't forthcoming, she decided Irene, decided to take for see a specialist and which she did and, and he took the standard tasks. You know, to check for Dyslexia and certain other things, and while he was in the doctor's office this this doctor, I think he was a psychologist made the pronouncement that that Bruce's, Ameritrade and and we we do- have evidence that it's hot it. She really shocked both of them. It shocked the mall. Other end and it shocked through San Bruce said later on in interviews with the psychiatrist that that you know that's kind of when the idea is stuck in his mind
that, whatever he saw in the world. Going forward, he needed to perceive it as an opposite, so black would be white. Man would be woman right with be wrong. I mean I'm I'm being very sort of general, but but that suggestion that the doctor made, I think, was one of the seeds that grew when his mental illness took hold yeah. It seems like a ridiculous diagnosis. All things considered regardless. I was aware of this diagnosis sounds like something out of a bee movie anyway, must be Canada, we'll get back to that. We'll get to that point a little bit later anyway. So this time he was not on any medication after this first meeting, at the psychologist. How did his mental health, and how did his duty frequent this doc,
quite often- and how did his mental health progress from that point? Well, he actually was not showing any signs of mental illness at this point because he was maybe you know I'm just pulling from my memory now, but maybe you know very, very early teens, maybe with
well, but we don't really know you know nobody can really say for sure when, when symptoms of schizophrenia began to take hold- and maybe you know with very mild at that point- because he did sort of become fixated on the idea of offices but his the signs of mental illness really manifested in him in nineteen eighty two around October, and he he started to hear voices and particularly from coming from the television and the voices were telling him that the world was going to end and that he Bruce had some part in that. Then he began to hear a particular voice from what he called the white woman with eyes of fire, and she told him that he was, alternatively, guard the devil, the Anti Christ Jehovah. I'm not. He was about to become time with a capital t, and so he had all of these very confusing messages coming at him and he was actually saying to people. I think is that I'm I'm hearing voices- I don't I don't know, what's happening to me. He was certainly telling his parents. He was telling his friends, but we're aware that he was a heavy marijuana smoker and they initially thought you know it was just due to that. So they really didn't taken very seriously. But then it got to the point where he couldn't sleep, couldn't he he was shaking all the time. He was just fixated on this idea that the world was going to end and got the idea that the means that the answer, which was written specifically for him, was in the book of revelation so who began to read that religion
Lee no pun intended? He began to read it at the to the exclusion of everything else and began to form what is really a very fascinating thread of reality out of unreality in his mind, and that's what ultimately drove him to commit mass murder. Now, let's go backwards it just a bit. We do talk about the chronic marijuana use and I and again we'll discuss this a little bit less, because I have heard this research that at least it can be connected to the schizophrenia, but at the same time marijuana use at an early age, schizophrenia. Onset is typically at this early age. I don't know, if that's you know
I think, that's a point of contention in terms of the drug or which came first, the chicken or the egg. But certainly can contribute to the overall symptoms of out of touch with reality. Now, let's get back What was his situation in terms of the had this loving family? They were pretty. The family. It is, medical marijuana use, but he also was living with was living with a roommate and was there idea that he wasn't sleeping, which again is very very consistent with what schizophrenia is schizophrenics exhibit in terms behavior, not sleeping, not eating. Tell us What you wrote in the book about in terms of
situation. His living situation is lifestyle at that time. Well, he he would have had a number of jobs that he wasn't able to keep. He works as a roofer. You worked as a car mechanic and he was actually very good mechanic, but he wasn't able to hold down the straw and and then he got a job as a as a swamper on a garbage truck and basically the guy who hangs off the back of the garbage truck and jumps down, and you know- and he says the garbage into the into the truck- and he really you liked that job. You know with his dyslexia and everything he didn't have to fill out reports. He didn't have to read manuals. It was.
You could go to work. You could do, is, you know, do its job and and so that that was a good situation for him. He was living in Lonsdale Amman, still avenue in North Vancouver, which is near grouse Mountain for those of our listeners, who ever been out there and feed, and he had a roommate who was also heavy marijuana user and the roommate was the first person to really notice find someone he gave evidence in court. He said that that Bruce was constantly saying you know the world's going to end look, look the television look at the television and then Bruce would sit there and stare at it, and it was it. You know, with
an episode of all in the family, and you know that that there would be a laugh track going there to be a smart, really funny scene and Bruce would say all my you know there. It is look. The world is going to end but isn't roommate for whatever reason. Just this message: didn't callous parents didn't reach out, didn't say to Bruce. You know, I think you might need help, and then there was this incident as as this whole thing was escalating, there was an incident when his roommate came home with a friend, and there were three coffee. Five coffee mugs set out on the table and Bruce told them that that that the three of them and two of their other friends had to be there that night, because the world was going to and then they all have to be together. So they, the two friends, said you're crazy, you know, you're, crazy, ha, ha ha and they laughed well Bruce was so so can.
Against that. The world was going to end in that they all had to be together and it was his job to make sure that they were that he ran over to the friends House um, where they all were, and just you know, with just begging and pleading with them, as we all have to be together at eight hundred o'clock, the world's going to end the world's going to end- and you know they put him- Offen mocked him. He got really angry an as he was leaving. He opened the door and he fell to his knees and started weeping because he said he saw the beast and what was there was the neighbors dogs. You know wagging its tail, but what Bruce saw was this hideous monster with fangs dripping blood and he thought that the beast had come.
And the world, and so that's when things really started going haywire, but nobody got any help and, and so Bruce, is experiencing these kinds of episode, these these delusions and hallucinations on a fairly regular basis with no one who would believe him or help him by the time it got to be. You know really critical. He was really I mean you know fully fully psychotic coming. He was not connected to reality at all, but he hadn't tipped over. You know he hadn't gotten violent, but that's only because he hadn't in his mind figured out what all of these messages work and it would it would
take that it would take the weaving together of all of these messages and creating, in his mind, a plausible story before he would commit the murders. Now, a little bit more of his background was his family at all religious and the, The Jehovah's witness pamphlets have anything to do with this story. His family was not. They were not religious. There No, absolutely no evidence presented in court that the family went to church or practice any kind of religion, but when Bruce was living in his apartment on Mon Stale Avenue, North Vancouver, RG hopeless witnesses would leave pamphlets, and so, as he was entering this early stage, where ideas will cry being planted in his mind, he would read those those pamphlets called await, and I can't remember the other one, but
watch watch tower. Thank you, yes, watch tower and in these towns, which typically what he would zero in on with the message that at the end of the world was coming and when the end of the world came with, only a few people would ascend to Heaven and of course he wanted to be one of those. So that's why he began this. His fervent focus on the book of revelation, which of course details the end? You know the end of the world the end of time and trying really to find some clue some directions as to what he was supposed to do to save himself and eventually, by trying to figure out how to save himself. He realized he had been the one chosen to save the world and that involved his families.
Know how many you talked about in the book how many days this year spiral as you call it so we're. Sing about. Talking about a really long time to to make sure that the audience knows we're taught About to tell us how many days this dissent is this spiral into this obvious murderous rampage and then tell us who did he does have no contact with his family? I mean, is this friend seems to be clueless, or at least he sees the symptoms, but recognize, it. How can we tell us how many days this is and how on earth anybody could avoid? You know family and friends, seeing this obvious dissent.
And doing something about it. Well, I his his trajectory was with state frighteningly so and I I I really hope that any listeners out there who have family members who might be exhibiting some signs, really take this to heart, because Bruce himself identifies the very day that he went over the edge, and that was December. Third- and I can talk about what happened on that day, if you want but sure from the day that he himself that he was a goner to the time he committed. Mass murder was forty six days.
Well tell us about that from that December. Third, tell us about that, how the lead, as the logic did he conjured up up up in his mind, to be able to do this. Okay, and- and I mean I I'm going to add something to at the end of it, but he was you know. He'd already had he was already reading the book of revelation he'd already had this white woman with eyes of fire speaking to him, he'd heard in his mind the devil and he sits down on December third to watch television and the magic Christian starring, Peter Sellers and Ringo Starr comes on and he starts watching it and every single solution that he has had every single voice that he has heard is manifested in that show, and he said to his psychiatrist. That is the day I became possessed. I was no longer me and I'm gonna tell you something down. I watched part of the magic Christian and as everything he says, is true. There is a white woman in there with eyes of fire. Here is the devil. There are worlds colliding. I mean it put shields down. My find
and I watched that and the scary thing is that show didn't put those ideas into his head. He already had them that show just underscored them. You know drove the nail into the coffin yeah. It's. Ideas- and so, but it's it's typical- as well that they would look for something like that to be communicating with being sync with, for this
manifestation of the same type mindset anyway. Go ahead. Absolutely absolutely! But what's so weird about this whole case- and I say this in retrospect: is there were so many bizarre coincidences like that? You know to have it wasn't just a couple of things in that movie? It was everything in that movie and I'm sure we'll talk about this later on, but there was some. You know he was interested in numerology too, and he figured out that birth date and birth weights and first times and everything man, something in terms of of you know, there's this hallucinations that he was having an even that psychiatrists in court said. You know very odd coincidence. That explains the happened in that he was right about that. He also seem to have a little bit of an ability to kind of predict what was going to happen very strange. You know so some of the typical
You know you just sort of fall off the cliff and and and get lost I mean there was just there was just so many very, very unusual coincidences now in his mind, how does through revelations? What does he hone in on, in particular in terms of passages, and what does he sort of, create in terms of this save this save the world. What does he is and it to do what does he believe he needs to do well, uh, huh
you know and depending on on which voice was talking to him at the time. You know he would. He would pull a different meaning that basically he was looking at the end of the world. He was looking at the at the. What was what would be the end of the world? It would be the big bang. How would that happen? On his mind, the Satanic STAR, it's going to collide with the star of David and create the big bang, and that would be the end of everything because alpha and omega the beginning and the end it was started with the big bang. We end with the big banks, the the do you want me to talk about the book, the little book, the term. Okay. Well, somebody! You know some people might want to cover their ears. He he he read the piece about a little book. You know, eat eat of the little book, which will be better in the valley, and he decided that that man he needed to eat the same and in order to discover the tree of knowledge and see God so
tree of knowledge to him meant eating whole semen and women. It man consuming their menstrual blood, and this this played out in a very bizarre way in his this whole scenario. So so there was that, and- and you know, then I mean when he was calling his family members and saying you know you need to do you need to eat your same men. You think that would be at a major clue yeah, but I I you know he is it's easy to judge in retrospect, but when you have a when you have a situation, we've got a family where there's never been a
any mental illness. You don't know anything about mental illness. I I would imagine it's kind of like having a parent, a beloved parents begin to show signs of dementia and you just don't want to admit it. You know you want to make out the one in the town excuses and put it off and as long as you can, but his fixation on consuming bodily fluids would cause him to do something. You know one of the more bizarre features of this crime is described in the book and you know if you want me to tell it all, tell it, but it was you know just and and many of the many of these things were so outlandish and so disgusting and and so we'll kind of horrifying. It just boggles the mind that his parents didn't commit him. Yes, tell us tell our audience: they're, not squeamish, okay, well, good good for them! Well, he you know he he had been consuming his semen on a regular basis and of course, as he did, that he he really felt like he was getting closer and closer to God, and so he called his sister. He called his sisters and told them that they needed to consume their menstrual blood and and then he got this idea that if they wouldn't do it voluntarily, he might be able to help them. So he went over to one of his sisters and you know told her that she needed to do that in order to understand what he was going through, and she basically said you know. Don't ever talk to me about that again. She went off to work, so he went on and went into the bathroom and found a discarded menstrual pad and guarded extracted as much blood as she could out of that, took it to the kitchen put it in a blender, along with some orange juice, a packet of chicken soup and some pages from the Bible. What did up and then waited for her to come home and made her drink it. Well course, you know she didn't think much of it, but got a little bit of a sip of it, so he felt like you know he had done his job in well. She you know she. She was going to be able to see God and again she didn't know within that can collection, but her husband did and again he was not committed, yeah and- and I'm not saying it's a again again for the benefit of people who are out there who have people in their lives were, are.
Are exhibiting bizarre behavior, you know do something about it. You know how far does it have to go on? That's a rhetorical question, but when you read the book, when you read a voice out of nowhere, readers tell me this all the time they're literally shouting, shouting into the air. Why won't you do something? You know basically to the parents? Why won't you do something? The denial you know do not was as much of an enemy in this situation as a mental illness. So this so continue from from this point, when he's is the idea of of of consuming his own semen and his family menstrual blood for women, so tell us proceed with the story: okay! Well, he he he. He starts fixating on numbers and it is complicated to go through the whole thing because it is, it would just take too long, but he counts his and he had a had a deceased brother who's born stillborn, but he count him in his calculations of how he decides that his family, each member of the family, has to sit on one.
Point of the star of David in order to hold it in place. When the satanic star comes to collide, so he starts adding it up an is there missing number, so he he's just think he puzzling it out and puzzling it out, and he decides that one of his sisters must be pregnant, so he starts calling his sisters and sure enough. One of them is pregnant, but they had. She was so early on. They had announced it, and that was a bit that was another one of those sort of creepy. You know him being able to sell things since so she so his his older sister, who lived far away with pregnant, and he.
As he was getting closer to his, you know complete break he he decides to go up there on a bus and which is no small feat. I mean you know, you're going to travel from Vancouver to the Interior of British Columbia, which is of which is a long long bus ride nine hours, I think, maybe more and price here he walks into her house she's in bed, and I think it's three or four or five o'clock in the morning. It's total darkness and he's standing in her room and your death. That morning he says: he'll fix your an omelet and at at this point he had he had started to see a psychiatrist to a given him. Some anti theft.
Medications. He ended up putting the anti psychotic medication and her online. He was never really sure why he thought it had something to do with the unborn baby and the unborn baby needed to be killed to go out to the star and she took one bite. It was terrible, so she gave the comment to the dog. The dog almost died. She ended up going to the hospital for eight days and almost lost the baby. So at this point you know you could say he tried to kill his sister. Are they still,
Didn't do anything, did the family well, the family living call the police. Obviously, now it is not. Policeman involved in a psychiatrist would have to be involved, but if no one told the psychiatrist or psychologist pardon me was is the psychologist know about it about the incident? Yes, but he was more concerned that they had let Bruce go up there on supervised, I'm and I'm not making that up. Yet do you have any specific instructions for the family once he was.
Under the care, well, he had Bruce under his care welcome to the psychiatrist credit when he first met Bruce, he did find commitment papers which were good for thirty days, and I think that was on December sixteenth. Yes, it was December sixteenth, I believe any sign commitment papers and he said I'm not telling you to put in a way right now, but you know you can you? May you may need this and if that's the case, please use it. So I see the doctor on the first visit. He went to the house, he went to the home, he gave fruits out long, acting shot the common down and twelve the psychotic symptoms and then put him on oral medications and then set up a a you know as as of schedule to come and see the doctor, which was which was followed sort of haphazardly, but as as is the problem with many people who have schizophrenia first at this point didn't believe he was mentally ill and he didn't take this medication regularly. So without the family and the and the psychiatrist really did not cancel the family about, you know it supervising him and he takes his medicines, making sure that he's actually following them, counting the pills. You know all of the things that we do now. We should be doing now really didn't happen and and unfortunately, every time the doctor saw through three scenes
did not seem that agitated. You know he and occasionally he was even fairly articulus able to kind of explain himself. So the doctor really never saw him other than the very first time when he signed the commitment papers. He never really saw him kind of florid. You know he never saw and felt some soul blondes, but that's on your still doesn't excuse the inadequate treatment. It would seem normal, it would say from my experience anyway, from what I've seen is that he would have been hospital as for at least the minimum, and they would have done a review and they would have administered medication based on that I don't understand how these could be forced. You know determined to have this illness forced to have medication, but yet not not hospital setting and then expect him to take the medication. I mean that's why they would commit
on to at least those few days and then assess whether they could really this person wore you know the
seems to be normal right that the family didn't agree? They they. They had the opportunity to have him committed on December sixteenth and they chose not to, and quite frankly, that is what likely would have prevented the tragedy because he would have been diagnosed. He was never diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic until after the murders, and the reason for that is because of the way the DSM. The dice dot. Diagnostic and statistical manual of disease defined mental are schizophrenia at that time, and you have to have the the sim you have to have displayed the symptoms for a period of time. I believe the fact that it was six months, so he couldn't he. The doctor was not able ethically to to diagnose and as as a paranoid schizophrenic, but if, but if he had been committed, they would have to
covered, you know the severity of his illness, they would have been able to say look. This is this is the course of treatment we have to take. This is how serious it can become. You know you can't just you can't just let him go out into the world and bang around on. You know, bump into corners and fall down and make mistakes. This young man needs help and he's going to need help for the rest of his life. It's very likely that it happened could have been the bump in trajectory. That would have changed everything. No, I still need explanation in terms of this medication, but in term for our audience. Even though he wasn't, he wasn't diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic by the psychiatrist and as a result, what kind medication was a given an or is there just an antipsychotic drug is
encompass, is all illnesses and regardless of the severity you even or the designation by a psychiatrist. Well, he was actually given the medication appropriate for someone who is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Increase that Bruce would not take it on a regular basis. He he he he at one at one point he was taking it and things kind of normal life, and I think that, while the family into a false sense of everything's going to be okay, but then delusions began again and he just stopped because it did the evidence in court. Was you know the doctor would ask the family the family was calling the doctor fairly regularly saying you know he's going on again about the end of the world and the doctor would say, see taking the flats and they would say well
I'm not you know, we can't be on all the time. How do we know so? The likelihood is now he wasn't taking his medicine. Why was Bruce not taking his medicine? Did he have a reaction to it? What what? What was his rationale for not taking it regularly? Well, he you know he. He of course didn't give evidence in court, but this is a common problem with people who have schizophrenia. That developed to the point where you know it's it's and it's literally and that it is and who they are. They don't believe they're set and some people with schizophrenia, or you can believe that the medication is poison. They don't want to take, there's also the other, the other side of it, where someone does know that they need to take the medicine, but the side effects are just so unpleasant that they decide they don't want to. But you know, and- and there was a a case of a year and a half ago- I think in another one in North Vancouver, where a young man this thing with Jordan Ramsey. No, he was mentally ill with paranoid schizophrenia, but hated the side effects so decided to go off them and take vitamins instead needs vitamins are marketed on the internet for people with mental illness within a very short period of time. He became completely psychotic and murdered his father and
Almost killed his mother because he believes that they they were it is that the people inhabiting his mother and Father Saudis were aliens and had to kill those aliens in order to get a parent fast. So yeah it is an energy and again you know, Jordan. Newton's Jordan knew he at that. He just didn't want to take that medicine anymore because of the weight gain and the look far check way it made him feel and fell on. Now, let's get to the actual day in question and tell us about Bruce Behavior of what what all happened. What does he fine only have conjured up in his mind, tell us about
as planned? Go back and and tell us what actually happens that fateful day, okay! Well, as I mentioned he, he had been working as a form for on a garbage truck, but his father had applied on his behalf, the Selkirk College in Nelson British Columbia, which is in the interior for no right course, and all righty. Somebody who works on large machinery and to everyone's total amazement Bruce got accepted, but it was the very last minute thing so he had. You know I think, like a day or two days to pack up to quit his job, packed everything up and moved to sell, Curtis Start classes and the father called the psychiatrist and and told him this and the psychiatrist said you know. I don't think this is a very good idea. The film for the lack of structure and the new environment could cost three to to regress. I really don't think you should let him go. The family sent him off and, while Bruce was on the bus hey
to Nelson, the voices were taking this medicine for the voices were just on him. You know just all of them all of the voices all at once on to the boss walks. This woman named Mary, Merry was sort of your classes can be, you know, with long curtains, hasn't shirt and the beads and high as a kite. She sits right down next to Bruce Caption on the side of the head right on the Temple and says: did you hear about the bug in the star and he looked at her, and that was it. He thought that she had some kind of message for him directly from God and she began to talk about things like you know. She had died five times and you don't really. When you die, you don't really die. You know you keep, you can keep coming back and, and you don't really believe when you die if you've got a higher purpose and so she's putting all of these ideas into his head and he's believing every word that she says well, she did he get. He finally gets up to on his dorm room, someone a hand in the key when he checks in hand in the key lock the key and he realizes he now has he saving the world and what that meant was that he had to go back home and kill his family so that their spirit could ascend to Heaven
take their points on the star of David and hold the star in place, and once you figure that out when that, when they put that key in his hand- and he figured it out, he felt such relief. He felt such peace because he finally knew what he was supposed to do and as hard as it is to believe. He never went about this past any aggression or hatred. He actually did it out of love, so he spent the night in the storm. He couldn't get a bus home that night he spent the night in storms got up the next morning out of a plane ride home. Finally, he was far from taking a flight in we've, got a plane ride home showed up at home. The price and scared everybody his father immediately. Bruce's father immediately calls the psychiatrists and tells him what has happened. Psychiatrist says I want you to take him to roll colombian Hospital right now, which was five miles away.
I'll call ahead. You can get him medicated emergency room, but that's what I want you to do, and I want you to bring him in tomorrow and the father unbelievably sad. You know it's already after ten and the hospitals five miles away. I think I can handle this until tomorrow. So mom I go to bed young brother Ricky start watching tv. Dad sits down to do a crossword puzzle. Bruce goes downstairs and lots a couple of rifles and hide them, and then he goes back upstairs and lays down on the on the couch in the tv room to Strother and starts listening to take mix. You know that he's made of music that he likes predominately, the who and the rolling stones- and he anyway he's he's getting up and sort of ranting and raving about the end of the world is static, trying to calm them down Bruce because outside smokes a joint eat. Some of that get some self calm down. He comes back in laid back down on the couch. Here's Roger Daltrey of the who singing a song and then a rolling stones song that one of the lines with do it, do it do it now, do it do it do it now and he took the headphones off you got out, went down, got a rifle,
The bottom of the stairs and the voices were just screening at hand. You've got to do it, you've got to do it now and they kept saying from the gateway is narrowing. The gateway is narrowing, meaning the world is going to blow up. If you don't, if you don't make it through the state way, and he didn't want to do it, he just didn't want to kill a family, but then he remembered what Mary had told them that you don't really die and you don't fully, and so he ran up the stairs pointed the gun and his father, five Father son coming try to defend themselves and shot and killed them. Brother came running up. The stairs turned the gun on him, kill them ran up the stairs to where his mother was sleeping. She course had no clue what was going on. All she heard was screaming and found shot down below. She ran for her life into the bathroom. He shot her in the back and then to make sure that she was dead, one shot at point blank in the head. Once she was down, then he went downstairs and found his sister. I told her to come and bring this other sister, but to leave his brother in law at home, so they they were North Vancouver. They make the thirty minute drive when they call the psychiatrist and say we want. We want proof committed it's four o'clock in the morning for for fifty five or something really, you know dark dark. We want him committed. The commitment paper had expired two days before so the pool at the the psychiatrist says the sister don't go over. There call the police she said now we don't want that. Our father was going over there, so the two sisters and a brother in law come over. Meanwhile, Greece's listen to the voices telling him to clean up the blood. You move some of the bodies around the bloody fleeting up the blood, and then they arrive any massacres. Sam.
He he and there were eyewitnesses to this- believe it or not at that early in the morning, but he believed it at some point during this whole thing that his brother in law, who was a big guy, six, two or three and two hundred and thirty pounds Bruce. On the other hand, it's like five foot, five and a hundred and twenty the brother lives in able to overpower Bruce Bruce shoots them six or seven times in the leg. In the face, and this big guy, the heart of a guy, won't die. So Bruce decides he's risky side to this brother in laws, the double and that the devil is trying to keep Bruce from saving the world. Bruce goes and gets the hammer and bludgeons his brother in law unmercifully. They found this this poor man, his features were just indecipherable and once Bruce had killed, everyone excited killed everyone. He had a leather headband around its head. He look to themselves in the mirror. It's none of. It just said that head down decided that that that was his.
Out of storms and walked out into the night now how do police get to the find the bodies? How does that all happened and tell us where it is Bruce? Go there or there were several probably five- hi there I your year witnesses. Nobody really was exactly sure what they saw, because it was so dark right, but but the one neighbors names William in my book, he he he saw the shot fired and we heard them. Actually he heard them towards the sound like for twenty two sound like fire crackers, he hesitated at first but the,
We called the police and the police were very close by. I think it took some maybe three to five minutes to get there and when they arrived, they found a young man who turned out to be Bruce sort of wandering aimlessly on the streets.
And no idea, they had no idea that what was waiting for them in the house and that this young man had committed the murder, so they left him. The last fruit with a rookie cop who's on the force for less than a year and three police officers made their way to the house, and you know when inside discovered the bodies they discovered that the brother in law we've been bludgeoned with still an incredibly. He was alive and struggling for breath to call an ambulance. Meanwhile, the the rookie RCMP officer is the young man and he blurts out that he's the Anti Christ and the world's going to end at midnight, your radios, that to the police officers who are outside, you know walking around outside the house and they go in and make their their grisly discovery. But anyway, the police sought the rookie officer talking through some proof that he has killed a family he's arrested for murder, he's taken to the detachment and- and then you know, that's
really that's, where I got involved, he came Bruce came into my courtroom the next day for his first appearance, where he was sent away on a psychiatric reman and and that's how his life in my life collided. Now when police found him was there any evidence like blue it's on his clothes, was there any indication that of of the carnage that he had just created? He, the the the arresting officer, wrote in his notes that he noticed start watches I'm Bruce's shirt. It was raining and it was x.
Greenlee Dark. I don't have any any evidence that he shone a flashlight on him. You know you would think that he would have testified to that in court, so he said he noticed dark splotches on his shirt and that dark markings on his hands and that the young man was shaking violently and appeared as though he wanted to cry. So they knew that there was something up, but really until they got him to the detachment and examined him and had him turn it closed.
Federer, they weren't able to confirm that that it was flawed. What do you make of this? Sir? No, I have to tell you this. The other thing is, if you, if you, if you saw this man, this young man group, any solid happened in that house, you couldn't. You could not put two and two together you could. You could not believe that such a small and mild mannered person do what happened in that House The White House, all small, was the, which is what is the size and with with his relative size. Well, I think five, five, five hundred and fifty four, maybe a hundred and twenty. If one hundred and twenty pounds.
And what does it look like in terms of a twenty twenty two years old? What does he look like a third of a boyish? He was actually very handsome young man. Looked kinda native looks like you had some native blood in them, so you don't get the lot had a long bridge knows he had beautiful, really beautiful black straight shiny hair, very elegant bone structure, which he inherited from his mother. They also inherited her petite vest. This is bad with the big guy really good. Looking young man, I mean just such as just such a sad thing, but but you know not noticing at all. In fact, the doctors who the G P, who came in and examine him that night in the in the jail dad you know he wasn't threatening at all. He was a small fellow, not threatening at all and to me- and I remember seeing that sitting through the trials of looking at him and thinking.
How powerful his psychosis must've been to literally give him a kind of demonic strength that he did not have right now? How do how do they proceed with him in terms of again he's? He is locked in a psychiatric facility in terms of. His in terms of him coming to terms with what he has done. Is there any? How long does it take for him to.
Ignites or have a break from the psychotic break that he actually had well. You know they're very protective of that information because it patient confidentiality, but he he did not come to trial until he had he had stabilized, and so he started receiving medication in February nineteen. Eighty three and it's trial was scheduled for November, so it took you know quite a few months for him to stabilize and although they didn't really talk about remorse or or anything specifically, they did talk about him being on on on special attention, which is basically suicide. Watch when the reality of what he had done began to sink in right and they, the psychiatrist, gave testimony that you know he moved from being very floridian, his psychosis to being moderate and to questioning whether or not solutions were real to you know, and this is all in the course of medication, you know to suddenly realizing the you know the catastrophic nature of his actions and then just becoming really really depressed, because the other thing also with that his surviving twin brother and sister, the one who he had put the had made the omelet for they were afraid for their lives, because he said that he maintained the whole time that the whole family needed to die in order to keep the world from blowing up and that he needed to finish the job. And if he couldn't do it himself, they needed to commit suicide.
And so they were they were afraid. So he had, he had killed most of this family and the two remaining family members wanted nothing to do with him so when he finally moved to the other side of his psychosis, in other words, he moved to sanity away from insanity. He had nothing. You know he had nothing the people in the mental hospital, because you know the other reality with that the rest of the world, certainly all of Canada and anybody else paying attention elsewhere thought he was a monster. You know they looked at him. Like you know, it's a lot like it like a devil, and so he had. He knew he had no one on the outside the caring about him or thinking about him and that he had brought that on himself. So the psychiatrist. You know you mentioned very briefly those kinds of things but of course, did not.
Get into any sort of details now, we've got it for our audience. We've got if they listen to the show regularly I've. I pointed out that there are major differences in the way our courts, even though they're based on the same system from especially Guerin, mostly most glaringly from the US and Canada. Those comparisons. Now, in terms of you say that everybody can in the US and internationally, you know a man slaughters is family, is considered a monster. The canadian courts. Look at things quite a it differently than the American Courts in american prosecutors, and so Canada believes it's more involved in this regard, and that is a point. Two I guess the to a certain degree, but regardless there is a difference. So tell us about in nineteen eighty three of what
the prosecution, how that worked. And how the courts were dealing with this particular case? Well, the interesting thing that probably most people don't know is it back in nineteen. Eighty three, the law was such that if you were found not guilty by reason of insanity, you would be sent to a secure forensic facility river view hospital. You know any other mental hospital, and this is the language of the law quote until the pleasure of. Lieutenant governor is known Unquote and the big joke was what Canada has the lieutenant governor. You know nobody knew who he was or she or whether there was even anybody in that post. So, basically, if you were sent away on a not guilty by reason of insanity, charge you're going to stay there forever
here's what happened in the and I'll talk about remind me to talk about prostitution when I'm done with this. In the United States in the 50s and 60s. The american Civil Liberties Union started petitioning for people to have the right to be mentally ill and then at the mentally ill, have the right to refuse treatment that led to this. This
movement called the institutionalization, which basically meant closing down the mental hospitals and putting people who are mentally ill out into the community, replacing mental hospitals with community based mental health care so that the mentally ill could exercise their free will and have lives like the rest of us and be supported by effective mental health care in there. You know in the place where they live. It was a really beautiful idea with grand and noble, but it was an epic fail because there was no infrastructure created and in fact, the money that was saved by closing the mental hospitals, and this should surprise no one was not funneled into the new scheme, so Canada decided to follow. The United States leads in the in the eighties, and so when first went into Riverview Mental Hospital. Canada was already under way looking at the idea of the institutionalization, and shortly after he was committed, what we thought we all thought for life. The institutionalization began in fact was beginning at Riverview, so I'm gonna tell you the last part of that story, but go back to the question about how the process
should handle cases, I think in canada- it's it can be very, very different, an interest this case, certainly both the crown that the prosecution and the defense both agreed, that Bruce was mentally ill at the time he committed the crime. It was not an adversarial trial, it was more an informational trial so that the public could be assured that you know enough. Evidence had been presented that you know that would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. The police is mentally ill when he committed the crime here in the United States. You rarely see that you know when James Holmes comes back into court. That's the Aurora Movie Theater shooter route. You know they're going for the death penalty. There's no question. In my mind, Jane sounds with mentally ill, but there's there's going to be no agreement between prosecution and defense on that yeah they're, going for the death penalty. So that's one huge difference and you know yet again: yes, it's available. Is it more involved? Is it more humane? Is it that Canada, seeing.
Wishy washy. It doesn't really matter. I mean it. It is what it is, but, but that is a bit that is a huge difference between the two countries for sure. Well, you know the the differences I spoken to a lot of true crime, authors and and authors people in general in the US, that is what the judicial system and the PA who's, afraid of is that some one deem not criminally responsible, because they're insane, oh, oh, or something like this or taking of life period and at that, person, some would be released and the That is what I'm trying to convey to our american an international audience. Canadians, boo, Even that, ah that is that when I talk about in the evolution, there's been an evolution of of thought in terms the Canadians, believe y'all, would, of course the person is now going to spend the rest of their life in jail because it in mean to kill anyone and
we've also evolved, that we don't have a life sentence without. Possibility of parole. So we do much more believe in rehabilitation, and we Just to walk in terms of actually let people out so it Erica they're, actually so afraid that someone would be the in insane that they might. Get out someday from an institution that secure in the public even shy away from the most obvious cases of obvious Insane perpetrators right, but you know it just makes me check my head in bewilderment- is that yes, we're all afraid that a brief black men James Holmes will get out again, even even after their stabilized, because we see what they're capable of we see what what can happen if they don't take their medication and if they're not getting mental health care
So, rather than live in fear, and rather than six he's poor people to never asked to have a mental illness away in jail or a mental hospital for the rest of their lives- and this is a rhetorical question, but why can't we get a mental health care system? That's community based that works and that's proactive and that there's no expense keeping people like Bruce and like James, stable and safe and supported because their safety directly translates to ours. You know we just keep focusing on all the wrong things. Yes, we know. Going to be released, so, let's make sure we have a system in place that makes that an okay eventuality. Here's the thing that I wanted in right
yeah. Well, here's the thing I'm canadian too, but this is where I differ from Val majority of people, and I don't buy into this. Because we have an example. An extreme example here is gentleman named Vincent Lee, the great How long be header cannibal killer? Now This person is in a hospital. And now is receiving this extraordinary care where they believe he's responding to the antipsychotic medication, so well that he is now within three years been granted supervised visits into the community of Selkirk at first he was given Extraordinary freedom from the from the institution itself because it didn't have a fence around it. Confining the institution, yet he was out for parks and recreation to me is
just extraordinary in in what I look at is that this is they have an eventual plan of letting this person this killer out, despite the public despite the victim's mother's pleading to have this person spend the rest of his life incarcerated in in an institution that this sort of a battle going on to prove that the canadian psych Psych, pediatric industry can cure almost anyone why are these again? I hate that it is a miracle drugs rendering this this former killer or mass murderers or but in this. Particular case, Vincent Lee to be harmless for the rest of his life and people say well. How do you know going to take his medication, and we, I have talked people who won't take their medication for various reasons But my question is: how do we know this medication can render everyone harmless
or we dabbling in this experiment. Just on our ideology that we have that we can fix anybody, I think the latter I think we are dabbling and- and you know beyond, beyond having an adequate and proactive mental health care system that actually work. I think we need to look at the law and I think that you know if you, if you can let murder while you're psychotic. Yes, you you, you weren't responsible, because you you know you were in a different realm. However, I don't think that the law should should render you not guilty by reason of insanity or because of mental disorder. I think
if you are? I think you are guilty, comma, but insane or mentally ill or whatever, and if you you are ever let out a condition of your freedom is that you will report monthly for your medication and if you don't, you get locked up, and I don't think that's too much to ask in the ACLU. Can you know just suck on that, but I don't think that's too much to ask. I think this idea of keeping people in a secure facility where they have this structure. They have the medication and they have the support that they need to get well and then you know gradually releasing in them into the community and then suddenly saying okay, you know you're done you're off our radar screen. You've done great
go on now. You know go have your life! That to me is insanity, because that that's. Yeah? No, I agree with the real yeah. The reason that they're able to go out into the world now is because they've had all of that support the you can change a brain disorder. You can't get rid of it. It's always going to be there. So then the quote miracle cure is all of the medication and all of the support and all of the psychotherapy and everything else that this person is gotten which ones they are for we released goes away. So the miracle drug goes away. The other thing that I think is valid as well as that and and you can we can discuss this- is that The vast majority, like
I feel sorry for anyone that the says walks into a party walks into a job as a lot. By the way, I'm schizophrenic, on Vincent Lee and all of the cases where a schizophrenic is the headline where schizophrenic killer I believe that it just happens to be a killer. Who happens to be schizophrenic because. You still have to have the ability to kill and most schizophrenic, don't have the ability to hurt anyone and don't and so they're not. As a as a statistic, aggression and violence is not at create a character trait so when we say a schizophrenic killer, but that person still the capacity to kill, and maybe we should look at those that he the capacity to kill and again in in Canada. I'm I'm totally disgusted with how can I can't remember or I'm diminishes the role
diminishes murder to manslaughter and we're not talking first degree manslaughter we're talking. Tap on the wrist manslaughter in Canada that's another issue. But I think that we should look at that, because the name Schizophrenia already comes with, enough of a of a label and a stigma that that it's not going to do much good, a guy like Vincent Lee and the headline for two or three or years or in the paper is gets Roenick killer, so what do you think? The idea that schizophrenics are not to be violent, maybe should just look at the idea that who has the capacity to kill and make sure those people remain in prison for the rest of their life were in some institution will say. Well the the you know the challenge with that is, how do you determine who has the capacity to kill and Bruce, for example, what
extremely gentle and mild mannered. He had no history of violence, no tendencies towards aggression at all, So there were no, you know no clues and- and really I think you know we have this problem with hearing the word- schizophrenic, her schizophrenia and immediately thinking, violence and you're right. The majority of people who have schizophrenia are are not a danger to others they're more of a danger to themselves, because you know the suicide rate among people with schizophrenia is really high
But it see so clearly severely mentally ill comma on treated individuals that we have to worry about, and not just people with schizophrenia, but people with severe bi, polar or a combination of the two, even people with severe depression. But again what I want to underscore is severe, on treated and right and when allowed to progress as as Bruce's was, and who knows what will you know if Mister Lee showed any signs, but when they're allowed to provide with with no either no intervention or inadequate intervention. If you look at the statistics that have been revealed in the United States,
an an alarm. There's been an alarming increase of mass murders committed by people with severe untreated mental illness, since deinstitutionalization happened and the Windsor STAR did a really interesting article article a few years ago. The same trend is happening in Canada, so I you know, I think again. I go back to this idea of having. If we're not going to have mental hospitals, we need to have community based mental health care that works and that easy right that easy for families to get help for their for their family members. Because that's the other thing I was so so much paperwork, there's so many hoops to jump through it's. You know it's just so hard to get the help that
needed when off and that help is needed now like right now, and we don't have that we need to work. We really need to work towards that, but I think the whole thing is messed up. We can do better. I mean we're supposed to be involved in a North America, excluding Mexico. I don't mean anybody any sense by that? But you know Canada in the US just think think they're capable of solving any pro. And I believe we are, but we're just not we're. Just not focusing are the correct energy and intelligence on this huge problem. Yes, I think that we we don't again we we. We thought we should let these people out of institutions and then and then treat them into community centers. But we didn't do that. We just basically save some money and these people are wandering around that, and you see him at the soup kitchens. You know they wanted around the streets all day. So that's there.
You know they had treatment. Now they don't have treatment. So, and I I agree with you that this this is, you can see the trend in the US, this mental illness, people taking out their entire family based on depression again schizophrenia or some other you know, Mental illness, where they're deluded and hallucinating, and we have things like you know the Aurora Movie, shooting so I agree with you that it's we've had I've, had programs where those That's our rising and more alarming and again bigger and worse incidents always 'cause. That's always the way that it's going to be so bigger and worse and more of an so with no end in sight. So I agree with you that we have to for our good for all the potential victims, everyone being a victim involved in this story and and
wait for the police to have to do. You know basic Patrick Counseling, or anything like that. You can't rely on them. Used to do anything like that they have their job, which- and that is very tool training in that respect, and so we you have to have trained professionals to intervene before they become to the police is attention because that can go off the rails quite easily. So I agree with you. Back after after my book came out, I got a letter from police officer in New Westminster, which is another bedroom to nip community of Vancouver, and she knew one of the victims in this book and she wanted to tell me that at least fifty percent that's five zero. Fifty percent of the calls that the newest minster police did
Hartman is having to deal with have mental illness at the at the route. Fifty percent yeah and they're, seeing that in the institutions to there's far more people medicated in the institutions, it seems, like you know. The make up of the prison population again is reflected in the rising mental illness. That. Through our society, so basically right right. There's one when I met with out. No, I was just gonna say is gonna, be somebody out there who wants to take on this great leadership challenge, because I really think this is one of the biggest. You know moral crises of our of our century and there's got to be somebody out there who's willing to we had the the change. Well, you know like I think that is cause for alarm the you know the amazing amount of cases that are not
bargain in the US, when there is an obvious insane perpetrator because of a difference, system, in terms of you know electing images and zealous secutores trying to make a name for themselves election time and just the sentence the public, that's sort of just sort of FED up and in it, easy to be portrayed as left on crime, on something like that in immediate is quite a bit of different animal in in the US, as compared to Canada. We kind of shy away from a lot of the details, as evidenced by the Dixon trial and Bernardo Inn on tile market trial? When you really ask your average Canadian about those you know, they didn't really focus on what I wanted to mention just because thank you misconstrued what I meant, and it was probably my fault when I said about the cup message murder, I do not mean that there is any kind of magic bullet to predict peoples via behavior in the future. What I'm
thing is when you have the capacity to kill and dismember and cannibalise a victim. I think you have the car Cassidy to kill, and I think that Vincent Lee, I hey, I apologize to maybe Vincent Lee, but I don't think you should ever be released from a psychiatric institution and inversely. I think in the US that many more cases should be the perpetrator should be deemed insane And then, as humane gesture, they should be and whether they can afford it or not. They can afford murder trials and all the subsequent appeals they can afford to put those perpetrators in a psychiatric institution regardless of peoples, here's that they might someday be released, I'm pretty sure that that won't be allowable for the most part anyway right
right. Well, the way the law is, I mean it. The laws got to change in both places, and I don't know who's who's willing to tackle that. But because you know you still got, you've still got the ACLU saying people have a right to be mentally ill and they have a right to refuse treatment. But my counter that is, you know all those children who died at sandy hook had a right to expect that they could go up and and and lead meaningful lives, so why? Why does? Why? Does one person right right right outweigh the rights of all these other people? I I don't get it, I mean it's well I mean. The thing is: is that if the person is is displayed violence behavior to the to the point that they were incarcerated and that's the end of that then they're they're incarcerated, if at first is released, you know, because of the law, and we have that with you know, cycle
the killers, which is not a mental illness, but those people that totally not be rehabilitated and they re offend, but some and in this particular case that is now criminally responsible because of insanity once they've demonstrated they're dangerous. Then the onus is on them to and not the public is not a reverse. They have to like you say, a monitoring whatever is, seems reasonable by the public to ensure that this person would not be harmful in the community is what they need to do once they have shown capacity to kill. However, I think again, I I think the the jewish. System should take care of that and it sure that that doesn't happen again. I agree with you. I agree with you. I think once you do that, once you cross that line mental illness or no mental illness lie for you is never going to be. The same
Now, just to sort of wrap up here. What was the fate of this Bruce gentlemen? Now we're talking about one thousand nine hundred and eighty three to your best your knowledge. What is his? What happened to him? He he spent twelve years in the institution he he was given and remember. The institutional ization is beginning to happen in Canada at this point. So in preparation to see if he was going to be able to be released, they started giving him supervise, passes or supervised visits outside of the asylum, and then he was given.
Unsupervised day passes. He had to return to the institution every night and that worked out well because, of course, you know he would come back and he would get his medicine and he would talk to the nurse and there were no problems and then
And then, when the law changed where and could no longer be held indefinitely by by virtue of whether the lieutenant governor of made an order or not, once that large changed, they pretty much have to release him and doctor doctors testified on his behalf. There was a public outcry. People did not want him really, but they say the government helped him change his name and then released him quietly into the community, and he has never granted an interview. Nobody Ricky has he's living under an assumed name. Nobody is exactly sure where he is
and he's he's pretty much stayed way under the radar, but he's he's living amongst us now right and if he would have reoffended journalist with. Means that they have would have known so with. As far as we know, there's been no re occurrence. Obviously, thankfully, yes, there's not much family left. So I know that's sorry, but anyway, I want to thank you very much for this up is anyway, people can contact you. I know you do Facebook. Could you have a website, so maybe people that would compel to contact you further after this and
yes and I would love that on that Jennifer Holey boots dot com and if they can't remember that engines, Google, a voice out of nowhere and and it'll, you know it'll pop up, but I would love to hear from folks now on any aspect of what we've talked about. This is yes, the a topic of great concern to me as it is for many many people and there will be a sequel coming out. I don't know when, because the first one took me thirty years to write and but there's, but there is quicker than a on it. Yes, a little quicker. The quickest
Well, I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about a voice. I don't know where it's a fascinating book and equally fascinating interview. Speaking with you and I got to vent a little bit about Canada system too, so I gotta thank you for that too. So, you're very kind. So thank you very much Dennis Holly Booth for coming on and talking about a voice that are nowhere. Thank you, Dan. It was pleasure. Thank you. Have a good night Youtube.
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Transcript generated on 2019-11-06.