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Of course, we'll go right into the lawn, progressive casualty, insurance company, affiliates and other insurers discount available in all states of situations. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy Bundy Dahmer the night Stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening with Sean insights into one of the most talked about murder cases in american history,

abomination, devil, worship and disc option in the west. Memphis three murders reveals the truth about the death of three chill. In West Memphis Arkansas in nineteen. Ninety three. My analyzing original police transcripts and court documents. William Ramsay conclusively proves at witchcraft and the occult were involved in the murders and continuing wall of deception has prevented the pie look from realizing the awful truth about the West Memphis. Three child killings, the book that we're featuring the ceiling is abomination, devil, worship and deception in the West, Memphis three murders, With my special gas journalist and author and historian, William Ramsay, welcome to the program William Ramsay, Dan. Thank you very much for having me on your show it's great to be here. Thank you very much. This is one of the

The more intriguing cases are among all the intriguing cases that I this program features. So let's get right to this. Why were you compelled to write about this book about this case? For me, what was what was it about this case that interested use so much, and why patient about Aleister Crowley. My first book was called profit of evil, basically a biography about Aleister Crowley, and, as I was researching my second book, I came across a clip on Youtube uh the West Memphis three. And it was about Aleister Crowley- and I I had seen the This documentary paradise lost about nineteen but I hadn't really keyed into that factor of the case. When I saw that house, Truly was involved in the case, and I had an interest in him. I immediately kind of was

It's about why that was the case. Then it kind of led me to really research. The West Memphis three case I had like I'd say I've seen the documentary, but I really hadn't got into the details of the case and there was they had been released. The west the three were released from prison in twenty eleven, and I was just trying to figure out what happened. So it led me to find all the case which are available online at Callaghans DOT, Org find it there. So I really research the case in my conclusions were a lot different than the public was saying about the West Memphis three. So this murder happened in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three so tell us in what year. You began this investigation that you can be compelled to do this investigation and at what point. In this entire case, where were they in this case at that time

well there were released. I started really researching the West Memphis three in twenty twelve. I was relatively late compared this a lot of other authors and researchers, but the west? three were released on. In August of twenty eleven, they played an Alford plea which, is based upon the Supreme Court case, North Carolina versus Alphard, which allows people to, plead legally guilty while maintaining public innocence and so they actually signed please that made, guilty for first degree, murder and they were released and it really kind was the I had seen it? I didn't really think much of it when they were least, but once I was, researching the case. It really took a fascinating art. Of the case. The actual murders took place on May fifth of nineteen ninety three

Three young boys, Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Steven Branch, went out for a bike ride in Weston. Office Arkansa it's right across the river west of Memphis TN and they left and they were really never seen again. There was a huge search that took place for the boys and then next day. They were found in a ditch close to the freeway They were horrific, Lee uh one of them traffic, but one had his generals removed and two others were tide in knots. And later they found they were drowned in water, so there was this horrific crime and the police really were trying to figure out who did They they they brought, a lot of people over from the drug task force of West Memphis to this murder Jason, really spirited, in research to it could be and what they can

across from one person, the name of Damien Echols was popped into The police that they found out about this person and they really started researching him and looking into path and eventually They brought in one of his friends of them was Jessie Misskelley. They brought him in for an interrogation, whereupon he admitted to committing the crime with with Damien Echols Angie. Involvement, so all three of them became known as the West Memphis three they arrested on June. Sixth, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three and It brought along a trial and they were all. There were two two separate problems just be medically, was separated a drop from Jason, Baldwin and and Damien Echols, but they were all found guilty in two separate trial by

twenty four jurors and Jason Baldwin and Justin. Miss Kelly were given life sentence is and Damien Echols was given the death penalty. He was scheduled for execution on the exact date of the murders one year later on May fifth, one thousand nine hundred and ninety four and uh. It's the case, took a strange turn: wind, the these documentaries doc. Ontarians, Berlinger and Sinofsky went to West Memphis to record the murder trial and create this documentary that was, Paradise lost. The first one trilogy, three three documentaries were put up at the first one was released in nineteen ninety six and it we did kind of a groundswell is very similar, in fact to the making of a murderer documentary that came out where the public received. A lot of information thinking. They had received the totality of the information about the case and actually we're sympathetic. So there was some Towards Damien Echols

and Jason Bowl within just Miss Killian slowly. A kind of groundswell of public support grew for these. The boys who were supposedly railroaded by the authorities in West Memphis, and it led to kind of a cost elaborate. Basically, a lot of celebr he's such as dark Johnny Depp Henry Rowlands, the girls from the Dixie Chicks. Any better all started supporting them and that's what led to the release. Something like there is that is, that the media there's ten to twenty million dollars, that was rate and the What happened was they were they the rule that was passed in Arkansa, that into dna evidence and that allowed the uh. The appellate attorney too, take this this case back to court and put pressure on the my computers and then the people in Arkansa, and eventually what happened is the judge one of the judges

was removed. A new judge was put on and eventually They came to this conclusion where they're going to plead guilty in two thousand and eleven they were released. Let's go back to the crime scene. We have to go back to quite a few things actually to explain how this can russian came about and the come stances in which the investigation proceeded to Damien. Tools and then the gathering of the information that supported there. Conclusions as to motive and to the suspects. So let's go back to the crime scene, who discovered the bodies and under what circumstances, and what was the evidence that was found solely at that site. Well, they were, they were looking all over the the kind of Westmont SIRI what they went to at this place, Robin Hood Hills where the boys were I've seen- and it was in

their drainage. Ditch. One of the detectives burn Ridge was looking through. He had seen a piece of more of clothing in this stitch, and that's where he found the bodies of the three boys is in this: ditch he found that they were. Their bodies were put down with into the dirt with sticks in the mud and you know- there was evidence of of wind on the side of on the boy's, face more and yeah. That's when they discovered that they were bound strange fashion. Now is there any other evidence footprints. Of course they did whatever forensic. Investigation right at the scene, but what was the totality of the physical evidence they had to go from to GAD leads from right at the crime scene? Well,

they have the some evidence. They found some some blue wax that was found there there was at that time the actually found and did a luminal test that brought up there was the blood in that area and At that time, the luminol was not admissible in a court of law for evidence, As far as everything else, you know they they, just had a bunch of rumors about what was going on in the park in that area. They had heard from other thing that people were in the park that there were kind of self doubt state in this group. And that's really kind of where they they let off to try to figure out who could have caused this crime. You talk just briefly about the condition of the young boys. You said there was a the castration movil The young man's penis

these are three eight year olds. Tell us the graphics, well, give us a graphic details of what they do. You talk about the timing of the of the the young boys. That's important. What other was suggested? I mean we're talking about evidence, being severely compromise, once they are in the water, so explain that and explain what they could deduce from what they did see and have at that scene right. I mean they did use the the boys were found in a very strange way. It was right arm to right leg, left arm to left leg. And it was it was kind of like a hogtie through the who is in the other one. The medical, Examiner Peretti, who was on in the trial said that the ball, There's boy had his penis and scrotum cut off. It was like his penis was shaped, so there was peace but on the inside he said it would have taken very

skill to actually remove that in in such a way and like I said there were deeper balloons, and it really were just trying to ascertain who could have done that there. There is one that water dish was drained. There was uh You know that was basically it and that's that's kind of what they had to go on. They didn't have too much evidence based upon the fact that boys were in the water right. Now there was other stab wounds and other then some mutilation to the boys. Wasn't there correct. I mean that's what they had evidence that one had a serious one, the left side of his face, and two of them had. Forcible injuries to their schools like crack school, so they were beat up pretty bad now, right away that this is not something in a community of West Memphis Arkansa,

you say: population, one thousand, nine hundred and ninety three twenty eight thousand. Now, not so common. This kind of psycho, psycho, killing, psycho, murder, when do the FBI get involved and tell us again, investigation right away, centers on a person named Damien Echols, but tell us about what the police do in terms of the stories that they gather in terms of evidence that there was something going on of a satanic nature ritualistic nature or a say, tannic nature tell us about that. Well, the I came in and did by providing kind of would be be a bureau and psychological study of the killer at the time, and they were so forth, sixpence specialist group to weapon office from the state capital of Little Rock to help. With collection of evidence, but they were collecting people came forward and talked about What was happening in Robinwood hills? People told the police that kids with

black and red hair hang out there in the cold. They said that they had seen people wearing pentagrams and they heard of, like you know, star, David or basically a hexagram that said You know that were around there, so people had seen. For the animals in Robin Hood around that time as well, and it also seen well spoken here, chanting and strange music, so there were tons of this kind of These files show this that there all this evidence was being provided to police a lot of throughput. These reports from a variety of different subjects, that this was going on and in the area now. For those people. That might say you know, maybe teenagers are a little bit different these days. I know my nephew are my niece wears black eyeliner and, and you know, nail polish, how Mommin. Is this weather

need a twenty eight thousand with the sports that you saw and the I'm terms of the numerous calls that you saw? How common do you think this is they? Can it be just dismissed as kind of teenage sort of hobby fad or infatuation. Must agree, question. I think that there is a subculture in United States of kind of often people who get involved in witchcraft and happens all over the country. I show in my book that there were other type. Malevolent killings of people that were influenced by the a cold, and I think specifically in but the Memphis there. There definitely was something going on. It's all You know all the evidence shows that there were groups hanging out at this old cotton gin. They called Stonehedge and there were all kinds of activities taking place. Bonfires, and even Kelly talked about the killing of dogs and sacrificing a dogs, and it came from

different. You know why brighter here. So I think the commonality of the witchcraft isn't huge, but You know I showed in my book that there is, there are tons of cases where it actually is a motivating factor in murders. For those of us that liked definition for things being real rigid. Let's get to right now, the definition, for the FBI of They say tannic crime, you say it's a say, tannic crime. Yet it may not lack those specific, ritualistic I'll. Let you explain the differences in your definition and the FBI's definition. Well I mean I think the FBI and somebody who was involved in the case, for example, was John Douglas. Their definition goes back to the landing report. Who was people into planning was a supervisory special.

In their in their behavioral. Science unit and he basically said that there isn't really any cult activity and that this kind of sexual victimization the children wasn't is not a cold motivated and so the FBI. He goes back and use it that, and my my definition is definitely different. I My definition is that you know, if people are heavily involved in the occult and they're motivated by their cult ideas to murder. Then I think order can be defined as a, You know a cold influence, whereas the right, yep br themselves, do not not even believe that you know that these type of these type of murders take place. So you know they there there

Pacific statement is third definition in it's. A specific definition of satanic murder, says murder committed by two or more individuals who were actually another crime whose primary motivated vision is to fulfill, prescribed, say tannic ritual calling for the murder, so it's very specific standard and I think but that you know demand so much pre pre preliminary thoughts to go through with it that for me I don't think I don't. I think that actually kind of narrows the the the possibility of this. You know that description applying to certain crimes where it actually is happening and you know the other thing is that I think the FBI standard is dependent upon having those facts. That show that there is a prime. Your motivation and that they are actually planning when you Some of these are typically irrational and they're not going to actually state that for the police. I understand that it's happening that makes sense. Yeah.

Now. Let's talk about Damien Echols then? He changed his name to Damian and there's. Various reports is conflicting reports why you would call himself Damon but tell us What is real name is and tell us about his parents and tell us a little bit about the real record on what the police found from their records from the Medical records and legal records on Damien, Echols, eighteen years of age,. That's a great question. There's a lot of there were tons of records that were brought forth in the trial, but he was born Michael Hutchison. He is the Son of Palma, Andrew And he family re married a guy by the name of Andrew Eccleston. My conscience in became Damien Echols HEAT on the name Damien. There is something Butte weather he took it out.

The name of the central character of the Antichrist character from the omen, or he claimed that he took it from, the name of a catholic priest who assisted lepers in Hawaii, but I think the name is more consistent with his sensibilities, which are in the and we can go into that in greater detail. But he before the crimes, Damien Echols, was You know he had no at eighteen, he had no drivers license no automobile and he had been in hospitals twice, he's actually been arrested after being found by police in West, I'm, fighting in a trailer and after threatening to kill the police officer and these girlfriend, Father he was charged with burglary, breaking and entering disorderly conduct, sexual misconduct and terroristic threatening. So this was before the crimes he was sent for a stay at the juvie or juvenile detention center on May twenty, six one thousand nine hundred and ninety two, almost a year to the day,

before the murders took place and he uh. He basically was in and out of three different mental institutions in this came up at the at the penalty. Phase the death penalty, sharing his own pi went out Collected all of this information so that his attorneys could have it for Corp see. I was by the name of Ronald lacks, is deceased, but it's become known, as exhibit five hundred, because there's actually five hundred pages of psychiatric and evaluation information in this voluminous kind of file and it look into detail about Damien, Echols sensibility is what he thought about his family. His ideas about the occult and it's voluminous. I only took part of it out for my book, but it indicates so much and these are all by third parties in two different places taking place in Arkansa and well, the Hutchison FAM

it was briefly in Oregon ankles in an organ mental institution as well, so he was in two different mental institutions in two states and they're fairly consistent testimony. It talks about Echols, being dangerous, irritable involved in bizarre and unusual behavior echoes he is believed in blood drinking, which is a consistent kind of thing. He he doesn't. He admit it made it a practicing witchcraft and stated he was a practicing warlock. So this is the person you. You know what what involved in the occult prior to the murders. He, burned his forearms. So you know, there's a tons of information about echoes in detail that really show somebody who really is capable of these type of murders- and it's a really deep. I know I'm good book detailed it in detail now, for those I just happen to do some research just a few weeks ago, on my own,

my only interest and read about Aleister Crowley and her Metic code and the philosophy do thou Wast, Thou Willst which means basically do whatever you want as long no one gets hurt except Allah, Mister Croley, and you provide a lot of this information in the book that Alister Crawley in real terms, in practical terms, had a much more sinister philosophy than do what you want to do, what you will avoid, sexual and moral repression, because he lived in the time one thousand nine hundred and one thousand nine hundred and forty seven so eighteen seventy five, or whatever it was so at the time of sexual and moral repression, but really tell us about Alister Crawley, his film Sophie in real terms what he really did have to say and how it relates. To Damien Echols and his interest,

and also relates to things like animal sacrifice. Right so cruelly was born in eighteen. Seventy five. He died, like you, said in one thousand nine hundred and forty seven. He was a wealthy Englishman and at some point his life. When he went to Cambridge, she became interested in the occult and he rebelled against what he grew up in, which is a christian faith. He he wanted to get in personal Vacation with the devil basically changed his kind of name too. Born Edward Alexander. He became Alistair and kind of like michaels. Changing his name and referred myself is the beast. He really thought that magic worked. He was trying to be in contact with super human entities. He really was an influence upon the 20th century. He he who wrote the book of the law and his ideas, like you said, was: do what thou wilt Heybeli The total permissiveness and freedom and uh his whole phrases do without well. It should be the whole lot. Eleven. The phrase eleven was kind of his his

kind of favorite number an cruelly talked about human sacrifices. He talked about the the choice is sacrificed is a young child. A perfect intelligence and for the three kids who died, and you know there were eight years old and he One of his books is lever, a lever sixty six where he talked about child sacrifice, and so this cruelly cruelly important. Part of the case, like I talked about earlier. Why I got involved in the case, was during the trial cruelly was brought up by one of the prosecutors, because X had been scribbling, something in a kind of secretly which that have the name of Aleister Crowley on it. In kind of this cryptic language and kind of broad got brought up a necklace. Actually I found out uh was a member of crowleys ot. Oh, it's a secret societies, the Ordo Templi Orientis he's a member. He added library there in Arkansa. They had his his magical library and he also

did recently that he was did because of his love of Aleister Crowley and which is odd, because people at the time back in nineteen Ninety three didn't know the totality of his interest you know they knew that he had a pentagram carved into his chest as a tattoo, but you know so cruelly is is an interesting element of this of this case in it. Go through this case and it's interesting since it since Both have been released. He's been seen with people who are interested in curly as well I wrote a piece about him and say tannic, underground and he's been seen with other intra Crowley. Aficionados, so I think I'm an important element in this case and there's there he actually cruelly had something he called the seal of Babylon, which was kind of a seven letter. Seven starred kind of

insignia and Damien Echols has got this huge back. Tattoo, that is a black son, with this kind of same motif on his back, so he's he's doing things that are consistent kind of symbology. Let's get this something a little bit more specific, because this is some of the stuff that controversial to some people, or maybe even absurd to some people, but it is specific. Let's talk about the significance of eight year olds. Let's talk about why young boys were important in terms of Crawley and the philosophy itself and some of the other things that were done the boys so tell us where you're as you bring up in the book. The evidence that points to specific necessary things that happened that otherwise might seem very, very random and crazy, will say.

Well, just the fact that he was draw, he was interested in sacrificing a child. He had talked about that with his girlfriend, and I put in the book that there, so there's a drawing of done by his girlfriend of child sacrifi Under a moon in a they kind of a cemetery environment. So you can see that in there. But the eight year olds. You know, he's he's probably like I said Earlier- male child of perfect innocence and high intelligence- is the most satisfactory and suitable victim that comes from magic in theory and practice. So you know why he was very much interested in sacrifice and what happened on May fifth, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three with on a full moon. The show northside with these ties that indicate in our significant in the occult, because they maintain a magical power. These now, lots are actually called,

they accord MAGIC is really what they reference to it. And that's what I believed and that's what I drew comparison to is these magic knots and core magic that was in and reference in a book called Buckland's complete book of witchcraft which Damien Echols had used as a reference point and actually to people that he wanted, a copy of equality was in while he was in prison. So this Magic is very. The children were bound in a very strange manner, with different knots of different styles and so I believe that the knots are signif, again and similar to what would be in in this weekend or a cold magic and you know that's one of the other things and things these things take place in full. Moons are very important. See the Wiccan Calendar the death happened close to bill pain. They were about three or four days outside of Beltane. So it's I do believe that there is a consistency and Damien Echols is still a practicing magician. He still,

doing his body with Steven Alphabet with a cryptic occult symbols and the a nokian alphabet, which is from John D and Kelly, who was his kind of scribe, these are things that go back through the western esoteric tradition that Damon Ackles is um. Interested and actually said in the Documentary West of Memphis that was produced by Peter Jackson that he wanted to be there. Greatest magician that ever lived. That's the way he thinks of himself after getting out of jail. Now. I wanted to ask this question is when we talk about some things that the police were information, Police were getting from people Third Party person's toy, king about what Damien did at certain points, tell us about the incidence of him for

graphing people and its importance before we give give that little information away, but its importance to again the cruelly and satanic philosophy there was people came forward and gave testimony the police of all different types, things that make it into the trial, but there there's one family who came forward and said Damien Echols was seen in a Bush taking pictures of his kids two girls age, nine hundred and eleven, and there were other photo graphs that were in a supposedly in the possession of echoes of the boys that he killed. So some people actually believe that he stalked his victims before they were murdered on May fifth, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three. There was the black black briefcase that it contained their drugs, and these pictures that other people testified about so there is there what the potential that other people were being stalked and he said two

cause, I heard him admit to the murders and they were their testimony was granted in court was never reach, answered or anything, but they also said that echoes was going. Kill two more? He was gunning for five total victims and some of the evidence of what was happening before the murders indicated that that was the case so did the mentality of sacrificing it. Seems like they escalated all the way up to human sacrifice through animal sacrifice, their uh People who came to the police said their dog were stolen. They had seen Jason Baldwin, taking their dog So there are very harrowing and scary statements that were given to police about and Baldwin now, let's uses as an opportunity to talk about our sponsor loot, crate Luke rate is a mystery crate filled with exclusive items from the biggest and best pop culture franchises delivered into your door. Every month

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William we were speaking about. We haven't, got to the point where Jim Miss Kelly is taken in for questioning. Tell us the circle stances in that. Of course, we've heard about Damien Echols um by this point to police know about Jason Baldwin. How much did they know and how much they know or do they think they know about Jim, Miss Kelly Junior. Why talk the Gymnos Kelly or be forged Baldwin or Damien Echols tell us about the circumstances that Jim Miss Kelly comes to be the first person that they really question great quest. Is Jessie Misskelley, so Jessie Misskelley Junior partner was questioned on June. Third, he was brought into the police station. I think he actually is actually drove to Jessie Misskelley Junior's dad's place to ask

you could come in for questioning there were looking around. I don't think the police at this point new, totality of what was going on with Echols and Baldwin, even though equals was a person of interest, but what happened was he was brought in at about nine hundred and forty five There was they didn't really record right away, but there is recorded part of it that they I actually gave. Jesse a lie detector test which he failed, the polygraph and then they started asking questions and he he basically started talking after about two or three hours and it his first statement in about two hundred and forty five and that's what led to the arrest of Damian and Jason, but uh the once they made it to trial. This first confession was was basically attack very standard stuff for defense people to do because Jesse, wasn't being specific about some of the

up and Jesse later said that he was intentionally being deceptive, but the the the compassion that he gave was close enough to, you'll end up, getting all three of them arrested and you know he gave a lot of details that were specific to the crime, about the kids, about him chasing one back back one down and bring them back. Back in Tell us the most area tell us about the tell us about specifically what he said in that first Config action regarding details about the murders. Well, he specifically said Dame great fire. So he raped one of the boys and then they both both Jason and Damian Rape, France. So it's very graphic. And there was different types of sex sex and Basically, they were holding him down. While all this you know this kind of torture that was taking place and was it was very detailed. They uh He said that he had him in a headlock that.

At one point one of the kids got away. He chased him down and he just he seemed to say that he left before the the kids were disposed of that before that they were murdered. But. You know it, it was pretty graphic and very very for me, through a network, the recording of the first big fashion is online. Now forensic Lee Through the whether they were in the water or not, were the police concerned about forensic corroboration with some of the details that he, he Specifically, at the ball to both murder, they realized early on that this guy I had a sort of a frustrating sort of manner in terms of discounting himself or or uh contradicting himself ten seconds. From from an earlier statement, but in terms of the actual tales of the murder. Did they line up for rent

Kelly was there: were they cognizant of that what the situation at that time when he was given those that information yeah, I think there were some inconsistencies of what happened to boy, the beatings and the kind of torture that took place. Is consistent with what happened was found through the medical examination, so I think without a doubt there were consistency there there it wasn't there was. Anything that was super strong, that tide him directly to it, but he did he did You know we talked about the ropes. He talked about things that you know they do can find in the medical examination. Any evidence of sexual assault was really just Jen, Miss Kelly's a statement or his confession. That indicated that, so their worst. There were some inconsistencies between what was able to be found and what the confession was, such as the rope versus

what they were actually bound with right right, so he said are open. They were actually bound with with shoe strings and you know, so he he was kind of he with consistent to a certain extent. But, like I said you know, there were definitely variances and uh standing that that the defense definitely brought up during Trump what was Jessie Misskelley? I guess we just confessing so he's not doesn't have an alibi in part of what you say about in terms of the inconsistencies are the gr. In in inconsistencies in terms of the time of time frame. Here our time went, as you say, this is enough evidence to get Jason Baldwin arrested, Damien Echols tell us what happens with Jason Baldwin before you talk about Damien, Echols, well, uh,.

Jason Jason Baldwin and they were essentially arrested and brought in a lot of people start giving testimony, but they were both uh tried separately, and Jason Baldwin was He basically had no, no alibi. There was no stated alibi in the trial, which was interesting, so he really didn't say anything about that as far as fix when they were arrested. A lot of people get testimony about or talk to, police and journalists about, Baldwin and Echols involvement in the colt and then Damien Echols tried to commit suicide on June June, eight about five days after their arrest. What about Damien Echols alibi? Was it supported? What was his alibi? they couldn't find it. He said that he was on the phone with three different woman during the time the Mers the murders were suspected to have taken place.

Timit dust sometime in the late afternoon early evening of that may fifth night And he said he was on the phone and then and the the police investigated the suppose, the people that he was on the phone with it turns out that it was either on different days or just wasn't consistent with the times that he provided. What's the most one of the most fascinating parts, elements of your book, which is An incredible in fascinating book itself is away. Damien Echols conducts himself in an interview again when, especially when the police are bringing up the occult accusations, any evidence that they bring up what his demeanor, like how does it conduct himself before we get to again, you have pointed out, is very crucial. I agree with you the talk of the urine right.

Well Damien Echols was he was interviewed right away after the murders and he indicated kind of a lot of things about what happened. In the case, he really really talked about he thought about who did it? Why they did it that he actually said that there was a likelihood that the person did it because they enjoyed it, and you know It was a very remarkable statement. The we. Nobody had known, because the boys were in the water that there was any urine involved, but the You know Damien Echols when he was first interviewed, said that you know there was something happened to having to do. He said you know. That there was something involved with urine in it and then what happens when they when they actually investigated the medical, I have to get her investigated two weeks. He found evidence of urine in their in their stomach sanso so himself.

Add to there's no reason why he would have brought that up with the crucial initial interview that took place may seven between him and uh the police. In terms of doing himself any favors in terms of the question about the occult, how does he conduct himself in that area? Uh as far as like. Is it his involvement in the occult at the part of the trial? You know He had I mean it's it was hard for him to completely deny it he at the time he had a tattoo of evil tattooed across his le, knuckles and so did Baldwin but she couldn't really you couldn't really denied. I don't I don't like that. He they really ask him too much about the cold initially, but they definitely brought it up during the trial. He said like he was doing. He was he

he did stuff that he liked the Bible in the book of revelations. He, like the devil So he you know he brought that up at the original, the the original interview. He also said something about the power. So he kind of indicated that he knew about because he said something about the innocence of the victim, the more power that the person would have gotten from the sacrifice. So he bed early, reveal stuff at the very beginning. Now that I remember it and he also No, he was initial interview or the time that the talk to Mommy, something he said stuff about the week of religion. In about evil being rewarded three times. So he definitely show that you know well that there was a He definitely showed that he was interested in the cold when he was first interviewed. Was there any move by his attorneys

to have him psychiatrically assessed for the trial. Not that not that I recall I don't recall that they had to pull anything. There. There was. You know. I think that there something that yeah. I don't I don't recall, I don't think so now. How do they proceed with this You include that there is, if I'm, not correct, five separate confessions, I believe from Jessie Miss Kelly, am I not correct that is correct. The confessions Place after his condition after his conviction, so his First confession: confession was the June third one thousand nine hundred and ninety three confession. He also So uhm confessed, he actually met with his attorney in August and confess to him in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, which was never brought up, but then once he got sent

passed over and over again, and so those confessions are recorded. Put them in my book to show that you know he clearly is involved in the case all the detail. There's silly details that were confirmed confirmations about whiskey bottle that they track. They actually found that where he said it was, but he confessed after he was sense, which is like February fourth on the way to jail, he actually confessed to the police. Then he talked in front of his attorney, he said that, and this is February if he said that he did again and then on February 17th. Think the prosecutors over and he confessed is again in front of his uh his attorney he's begging him not to do it, so he can over and over and over again. So it's it's fairly clear that Jesse Day me and Jason, involved in the murders. Why is it that

There is talk about him because of the evidence, him being just a star witness why he does not testify against the other two an why his cases separated explain that yeah. Well, I I think that he because of his situation. They separated the case and he wasn't going to testify against them, and so the cases were or separated, but there was talk. Definitely that he once he went in for that third confess or the confession where he was advised against by his attorneys, yet he did still confess they've. Even more clarification details of other things that he said he had misled. The investigators regarding so this is a very strong confession with his we are strongly advising him not to do that. Yeah yeah!

yeah those compressions are there. You can hear his lawyers saying, don't do it to get your stress, but that Miss Kelly keeps saying I want something done about it. I want something done about it. So it seems like you have voted, let's get to an important issue, because this is like, as you put in the book, and I admire that you did this in it right. I I know it's necessary as well as that. You address the supporters By this time you know Paradise lost is, is I don't know This can't remember, is earned any academy awards, but earned a lot of praise God, a lot the exposure you talk about Peter Jackson involved with this, so there is a lot of people have watched. That program been, I guess they think duty flea, outraged and they've based their conclusions on the and so in your book, abomination, to actually address those people and some of those things? So, let's address

the really one of it seems like they're. One of their big big contentions is that that uh, see Miss Kelly is got the iq of seventy two or seventy eight or doesn't have his facts please about him. An manipulative manipulative police officers were planting the cells, important details, not less important details, tell us about his iq an and how you discuss. In the book about Jesse. Well is ability to be able to be? interrogated. I think that was to their benefit. You get Jessie Misskelley's IQ under seventy. You know to make him borderline retarded in I would discount the You confession the reality is, is that he had done another iq test that he scored some. Closer to an eighty, eight, eight thousand eight hundred and eighty four to eighty eight, and you can tell just in the connections that are reported, that

You know he knows what was going on is talking about specific things, so I think that was the defense tactic to kind of discount and get his testimony thrown out and you know, then there are things that where they talk about, you know they supposedly. You know browbeat them for all these hours is an eleven hour grilling in the interview, but there's no evidence of that either, and I think that that really clear that that can be rejected, but you know it's very poor To see that say those because, like you, said that the public understanding of the case was marred by these documentaries that three documentary that came out and also by echoes west of Memphis, which came out. I think it two thousand and thirteen or two thousand and twelve so well, they get a whole different view of the whole court case. That's different from actually reading what actually happened during court. You know during the court cases muzzle asses. Now, while it's on my mind and we were talking about-

Peter Jackson and celebrities were talking about beloved Hollywood actors. And musicians and celebrities. Metallica was in the Paradise lost soundtrack, Eddie Vedder from Pearl JAM. I believe we have Johnny Depp very, very much involved Peter Jackson from Lord of the rings. Other people, other everyone involved to the tune. Like you say ten to twenty million dollars able to to hire the appellate lawyers and also, more importantly, I think, is to hire expert testimony and expert witnesses and their testimony, as everyone can imagine, the more money, sometimes better, the not sometimes the better of the expert testimony so uh

I want to ask this question because you have done a book about croley. You have commented- and I don't want to get too much into this, because we have to go through this story in which is very, very important in that some of Celebrities have incorporated the philosophy and the symbolism and the I guess, somebody yard. I guess it just like somebody that might rock stars have done before adopted the the Nazi symbolism in some of the fashion and will say some of those things where musicians now with that for controversial reasons, and for just to be bad so that you know, Your parents want you to get rid of the records. I think that's been tell tale if you get to your parents upset, but let's get back to its effect in this case here in

terms of where these musicians and and directors, and these seemingly intelligent people that are certainly not a sacrificing babies- maybe probably not even sacrificing anything- probably vegan for God Sakes What is it a matter of that they did that they were, they were. They were juke, they were hypnotized. Are they naive? Do they die? although they only understand Croley a little bit, do they not understand Croley? Do they did not do the investigation? What is it about this? arts and that's a great question when I first when I first investigated this case in twenty twelve, I really didn't know about the involve moment of the celebrities- I didn't understand them. I didn't know much about them, the more I researched the more I found out that they are many of the central core celebrities have similar outlook, Damien Echols, and I think that there were

spiritual traveler fellow travelers, Johnny Depp himself. Cotton tap two with Damien Echols I've represents the what's called wind over Heaven and somebody in the cold to me it represents looser, the Lord of the air. And Peter Jackson also got one of Damien. Echols touch style tattoos, so like that was really one of the core celebrities. That's really who they were very similar in outlook, is apples, like Margaret Cho, who is the comedian called? call Damien, Echols, the the heavy metal rock star. You know like she really admiringly liked him, so I do think that You call them the heavy metal. Nelson Mandela. That's what she called me, never I'm! So I do think that, Some people really are are. Are Thetic with him because of their. Similar ideology, and why An interesting point is that Maryland,

Hanson who was the like, say: tannic rockstar. He was kind of a hidden secrets order of Damien Echols and he and Damien Echols hung out together there's pictures of them together. There's pictures of vehicles in depth after the after the release and here, Jackson, with a huge support, even let echoes, live in his house in New York. So it's very strange, very, very strange. Well, you have cited be because again, I think this is a great example, and I got, I think, don't want to imagine that's the case in terms of they all believe in human sacrifice like I said. I don't even think they would believe in animal sacrificed, no matter how far or deep they are into this now. I could be wrong but you do cite other examples like again intelligent, respectable people. You would think Norman Mailer supporting a former killer and you do site a couple of cases so site a couple of cases like that, where again the

celebrities champion these guys because of their support literary talents- and they were wrong. Right one was one, was a famous guy, his name with Hank Abbott, and he was kind of a sim sorta equals. I I put him in the book because he written a book like jackals, had written a book in jail. That was very pathetic and it drew all these p well to be involved with Norman mailer. Just a perfect example. He was like, with this cause, to live kind of killer sympathizer Abbott gets out here right, book called in the belly of the beast of the now from wide, but nationwide bestseller, but I have it kind of, but doesn't changes stripes. He gets out kills a waiter over an argument over nothing and uh The trial mailer was there Susan Serandon with their aunt Christopher Walken. So these were people who are sympathetic with a guy who had killed twice. There was another case. I I quote, which is Jack Underwager it it took place in Austria,

but he was a known person who had been in jail. Uh. He had been in there for pimping and petty crime. He gets in jail for the murder of a prostitute right, write the book and then the, The literati and glitterati of Austria get him out when he goes out and kills again so can I also talk about Mumia Abu Jamal you. You know all the evidence points to him, killing the police officer Faulkner he's, still kind of a hero of the left, and you know again, Susan Stranden pops up but all these other people are very simple sympathetic towards this person. Well, I like in them a lot too. Vehicles in the West Memphis three has this kind of sympathetic figures for these celebrities. Now you've watched everything, including pair lost and is lausten that Realogy geology of documentaries in the movie, everything the videos- you say

You have posted on your on your site that talk about Damien Echols in interviews. So you have everything every shred and Information not only stored in this book, but every did you have in terms entire project for in terms of evidence. Absolutely. What is it exactly that people have the biggest problem with because it's been depicted that they just like that these guys were railroaded because they like black shirts and Metallica, and how can they get so far? How can they get so far off. So what was it about? Where did they hinge these ideas. I know that they would take the separate ideas. But again, if you could kind of dissect on where the film makers either went wrong or purposely directed them in the wrong direction. Where were the key points where people that

supporters of their innocence were duped? Well, I think that the You know the second and there were through the trilogy. I think the first paradise lossed was basically cheetah pon echoes it finish off with saying Equis saying that he was the web boogeyman, but then the in the third those of that franchise? They point the finger at. John Mark fires and then the third they pointed at Terry Hop. So they've got this alternate possible suspect and, unfortunately, Terry Hobbs was kind of the whipping boy, the latter half of their release, and they convinced all these people that he has involved and there's no way he could have been involved, but they had all this stuff come out about Terry Hobbs, not saying they seen the kids laugh. He had these two can criminals rapists. The Terry Hobbs at a family secret- and I think that that was captivating- I think that there is a narative there that is sympathetic. People are attract, see, which is you know this poor people getting railroaded by the system and it didn't help

that he was from the s. So all these other, attorneys and everything were seen in that kind of frame of you know it's a red state and there are a bunch of hillbillies hillbilly Lawry's. I didn't find any of that. I thought that they were people in a difficult situation doing the best they could, but I think that that narrative- and the other thing that's interesting, is that I think at the pr really worked? I think that if have Johnny Depp and all these other people saying that they're innocent you know it's kind of a born celebrity for whatever it's worth people content to believe celebrity. So all these people that came out they just assume that that was the story and the you can be part of the truth, but you know, I think that that's was the potency of this of this, Ethan? How it got twisted in the minds of the public is really the celebrities in the pr was very effective, the other very skilled, PR guy named SIRI, Lonnie Soury out of New York and you know it begs the question: why does somebody then does it need a pr person but yeah? I think that

you know there. There was a lot. There was a very strong pr element in Seoul case, and I do mention that briefly in my book, how did the celebrities in Hollywood get involved in the first place? there was who was who was the contact and what was it exactly about that? How they contacted somebody in Hollywood that first person sympathetic person- how was it they convinced, and what is it that they said. How did that compare you know eh. Most himself when he was in jail. He has a wife, he got married and He seemed to be the intermediary between eckles and all these celebrities, and these will eh he's got involved in kind of a trickle it was my understanding at least what they say is that Johnny Depp called her and said you need help so a lot of these people, but it seems like they all kind of banded together through their own network and to help him out. So it would

it's not there's no real overt thing of these every, but they held all of these band meetings and raise tons of money. Like you said it's ten to twenty million dollars in crowd. Double sum of money that was put to use to get these guys out of jail, but I don't think that there was really an open statement of all these people. At one point coming together. I think it was kind of a triple like me. Rollins got involved in that but somebody else involved and then Johnny Depp got involved and by twenty five or twenty. Oh eight. There is just this. You order of celebrities involved in the West Memphis three case, I I tend to thing: can I mentioned this to you earlier in the day that I think that people in general because they have never experienced a trial because they prob do not read. I can guaranteed not read entire transcripts. They wouldn't get through it,

and they're used to seeing films and documentaries and news clips so incomplete documentaries with a certain phone again making of a murderer, is a good example coming from the defense. So do you There might be a bias, potentially just the power of film versus it's in terms of the ability to outrage compared to a book seems to be more reasonable. Do do you think this is just a general ignorance and now Ebadi about the law itself, which leads to a guy like Johnny Depp, who probably wasn't outsider once upon a time, and we did have aspirations would be a musician thinking. Jeez I can relate, maybe not thinking about too much but saying I can relate to being an outsider, an just believing what he wanted to believe taking pieces out of it that support

his idea of his own experiences. Do you think it's more about people yeah I'll, give you two answers, because people break it into what I think about people's perceptions and then Johnny Depp? I think it first peoples perception, I think it's. The medium is the message. I do think that when p, we'll watch film they're, not getting the full timeline of Eh everything visual things and they're very manipulative. A lot of these documentaries do not prop, we document the case they're very specific and biased, and you know I think, that the interest Hbo in this case was to make money. That's why they did you know franchise out of it in the third, and they had to have a theme in in each additional film that would so people in so what do they? Do? They blame somebody out there building on bars. They blame it on off that gets people. It creates Frick in increased controversy. So I think that you know

that's really. I think that the whole do you, those videos and those clouds are really where the core reason why they got out. I really do I think that propaganda was it. So I do think that, like you the book is a more measured means of getting information. I think that people generally won't go through any Jason, read those documents. I think that that's that's, why so many people have ignorant conclusions regarding the West Memphis, three kids. As far as Johnny Depp's concern I've done some research on Johnny Depp recently and I think he's a fellow traveler just like apples, I think they're both into magic. I believe that into the cold and and uh. I think that depth has has shown in his films. And in what he said in his personal life, that that's what he's into he's into what echo That's why you echoes himself called Johnny Depp's brother. We believe Johnny Depp is like his brother, and you can see these big so the backwards and depth at my youtube site?

have applications. I have all these videos of actually using deception. The pawn journalist, you don't know the facts of Ok, so they really don't respond. He's been on major shows. Where he's just strangely ball face lying for calculate the the one show with CNN with and the Just ask him all these questions and echoes dot. That was basically said that he had never been in a never been indicted. Crime for anything when the book and all the evidence shows that I've been in under police. He been arrested one year for the murders, you know so the sons, information about it, but like going back to your question, I do think that you know people watch it. I think that at the videos are can be deceptive. This eh going through a mission. You know it's not that they Don't include all the information, so people think they've got full just of the case. Now this isn't evidence in itself, but

you provide the evidence that he had this interest in in Satanism and Aleister Crowley and other you know, founders of this Anton Lavey, so he really was a serious satanist, and with that you provide the info haitian dead, that he knew of Crowleys Talk of sacrificed and there was v. Very good indication that he was dabbling in that area of magic and spells and witchcraft and sacrificed there was also evidence that he talked about human. His sacrifices well abs, movie. I wouldn't I wouldn't call a devil. I still think that he's a very, very serious christian magician. And when I read the book like I had already read Croley and then I wrote road Red, Damien, Echols life after death when he talked about the age DA ritual, the Holy Guardian angel ritual, something specific to Aleister Crowley. When I I fell out of my chair

I literally was in shock that he knew the Hg ritual, which is crowleys. Attempts to communicate with thing that's really what it is, so you know he talks about going to the hd a prayer ritual three times today in his book it it's really remarkable, and it indicates to me that echoes, is not a dabbler he in sprite. Now he has he's kind of prof. What Ising magic. He wants to create a magical revolution, and he he says. I want to make the world more magical place, give magic. You know the people that will appreciate and change their lives. So I think that he is a true believer in his Fairfield Inn and its social media indicates that yeah. It's interesting that that that would come up in the trial that he would be blamed for that. He would downplay and say that it was a white witch. Then he really did it was it's incredible when you see Jason, Baldwin Ann, Jessie Misskelley, but very much

Jason Baldwin and Damien Echols how young these they look like kids and they did act like kids as well. They look very, very it isn't a and again that's movie making as well, but you it's it's an interesting that someone would continue: with this magic again again, if it was white, magic you'd, think that when he was released. He would pretend he was white MAGIC go that route instead he's at. E or, more so exploring the darker elements and the croly elements of Satanism is knee to this day no question I think that you hit the nail right on the head with that, because I remarked that I think I would think that once he got out of jail, he go back to his Sudo Buddhism, that he's interested in the Shinto kind of Buddhism. Instead, he goes right back and see this magical. He still promoting it he's practicing, it he's creating.

Schedules and pictures in his art that are full of Cymbala g. He actually made drawing that, was made up his blood and spit's blood but in saliva you know real kind of bottle the fluid magical stuff, and then I saw him with this. Character by the name of Genesis, P Orridge, who really started his own kind of croley coat cult. That was supposed to be the You know we're supposed to follow on after the work of probably called the but his is called the the it's about psychic, youth, basically temple of psychic youth, that kind of carried on Crowleys Crowleys torch, for example, an apple, is hanging out with me. Then a movie with him called IRL. If you want to see something very creepy, you can go to my youtube. I had a cold that is called investigations and see them together Talking about how New York is a dangerous place and people.

Get killed. So it's really creepy what. It was interesting is when Damien Echols takes the stand and knew document. What exactly did he. What did he bring to that at that trial? With his testimony on on the stand. It's unusual to have a killer. Take the stand, so they must have thought that there was nothing else to lose. By having him on there. So how did he conduct himself? What did What did the world learned from seeing him up on that stand? Well, I think they saw I kind of December? You know they asked him questions about Croley, they have about the the pentagram on his chest? They asked him. About the noise that he used to have. Now all the night disappeared. One was found. Found in behind the trailer park where they live, were Jason, Baldwin, live but

he really, you know He really tried to kind of just some of the at least that's the way I interpreted about a lot of his we hit enter. You know David, the prosecutor said you know. You know he asked him about his earlier statement that he had made right there on on May seventh, the optim about. We would feel good about killing eight year old. Is that part of your comment? That's a lot to be and then necklaces I figured they must have if they did it. So it kind of showed that he was really cavalier about you know the lot of the three eight year old, deaf and You know it showed that he he he the outlook of somebody who was a killer, at least in my opinion. What is it about Jesse Skelly in these supporters minds besides the the eq? What was it that made it

conclusive in their minds that they, just no way that Damien at tools and Jason Baldwin and Jessie Misskelley, despite the confessions. Because I'm sure they know that there are these confessions. They know of that row. Well in the jury's conclusions, Well, not everybody notice that they had John nobody, not everybody knows about the post conviction conventions. The pr team and Echols himself has done a good job of Kissing on the one confession, so a lot People don't know the total factor the case, so I think that's. Why I miss Kelly can be thrown out. He was seen as incompetent and hung intelligent and that the fourteen out of the suppose so called fourteen hour. Confession was bogus and so when they believe, those facts that really or these is that really aren't. True, that's why they can.

Through the scaly out in his initial person about it, you'd be surprised how many conversations I have with people who are weapon of the three supporters and I've had many many many many conversations with them. How many all We think know that there was one confession: that there was no post conviction, confessions. What is their rationale for having first buyers and then now Hobbs at in there. And there I think in their eyesight. I think it. Away from them and they can actually can win the pr battle They can win the pr public pr battle, and that was really kind of the unusual element of this case that they re leave the West Memphis three. Three one Public data, most people believe that they were innocent for one reason around: that's how they raised ten or twenty million dollars. So if you can tell the public that it was this suspicious stepfather, whether it's in stepfather buyers or the stepfather pubs

You win the pr battle, not in court, but that pr about can lead be leveraged with mom. Need to win in court yeah. That's why I think that that was their approach. Now the dispute, the say, tannic motive, What would be the motive for either one of those stepfathers to do it? how do they they've had a whole series of different things? One his rage, killing one is the Most recent, which is laughable? Is that Hobbes one of his friends, and The other kids were in Kate. They will get this. They were engaged in some homosexual party in the woods and the three kids came upon and then the all three of 'em killed the three kids. That's what the supporters have actually posited as what happened so uhm. You know that's that's kind of that's there they're kind of lame rationale really for

think that doesn't hold any water in the other reality about half is that he was being the whole night of the disappearance. He was walking around. He was with his wife. He was with other, had seen team buyers walking around in the woods. No saw him what you had to to be in that ditch with the the you had to have gotten wet to the cover up the current prime and he the scene wet and muddy. Damien Echols was and money by the truck wash That was over by the freeway about a hundred yards away from the mercy we've seen by the whole Hollingsworth family and people like the discount, But why would a whole family with my wife and kids and husband, lied? not seeing apples and possibly either Jason, Baldwin or Apple's girlfriend at the time. Name, the the fact the Damien Echols mentions that uh

urine in the boys mouths and that the pathologist finds evidence of urine in their stomachs later? Is that brought up at trial? Is that important or just you're in your mind, open for me? In my mind, it was not to my knowledge brought up at trial, but I thought that the it was it something that I learned from there's been a lot of writers about the West Memphis three one was blank on crime and uh, this trench rentals, but it was something I learned from blink on crime and I think that was the truth. She had looked through all of the records as well, and I used you know some of her analysis in my book and I quoted her. Am I on my intro to the book as somebody I referenced. So there's been a lot of other writers who you know I wasn't alone. I wasn't the first one.

It's a really right about the case. I was the first one, so you kind of put together the cold out aspects and elements of the case. Now. You say you have, I know you have supporters and there they have their supporters. Are there any supporters that take There you know dedication Satan so seriously that they are angered at is it? Is this like Scientology, tell us a little bit about that? Nothing amazing statement by you, because I think that supporters of Damien Echols are basically as fee even an aggressive at Scientology. Blue Trench Reynolds has written a lot about echo. Then he calls echoes followers. Eccles ologists play on Scientology. And he is actually had some very serious ramifications from

speaking out against tackles he's. He actually had somebody leave a bag full of excrement on his porch. He he has been harassed online and I've been harassed online as well and I've. Actually, if you look at my book on Amazon, I've just been basically gang stalked by echo supporters telling lies and just trying to downplay my book and give me one star. So there has been some ramifications from complaining, gets echoes in it. You know he's a member of the Ot, oh, isn't admitted member one of the a strange elements of the case was the support you kind of up out of the middle of nowhere. There was a group of 'em that came out of la that are seen in some of the in some of the Paradise, LAS trilogy talking without clothes, and nobody really knows why their support are. They really have a secret hidden agenda and one of the guys from for tv apps, one of these kind of fevered cipo. Are you a member of a cult,

it came out and said: are you a member of the quote, which I thought was a very important question? The guy dodging. Now the urine Vesti gation into Alister Crawley, of course, is instrumental in this. For our audience you and in the book you do this as well, but I'd like you to tell us specifically Why you think that Damien Echols and this crime itself demonstrates the again what we know the difference between what the FBI would call a ritualistic, satanic, murder, but tell us why you think this is can be described as having those satanic elements. Tell us again, in summary, all the things that you thought about the three more

years of these young boys added up not to say tannic crime, so they were they were tide like we talked about earlier, they were tied in what was Dornish Colcord MAGIC with different knots and in cord magic. Different knots mean different things so, and they were tide in an unusual fashion which was very ritualistic all so that there was wax that was found there from a candle. It was a very bloody scene. It took place, not a full moon. Also, what I didn't know when I first wrote the book is: there's something about drowning about ritual sacrifices. Water and the boys were two of the boys were drowned. Also, the fact that one of the genitals was removed is consistent from what I've heard for uh a really intense ritual that takes place at the highest level of state. There's some involving blood- and you know, have the boys with his genitals removed. He lost all his blood and that blood was there. You can see it in the court documents that

the blood is all over the side of the bank work. This took play the luminol with evidence of all this blood, so I do think you know there could have been other people at that site when they, the boys were killed, which is a scary but one of the other investigators Jerry Driver, one of the early people who knew Ackles thought that the other people there, the night of the killing there was a man who went to a little bit like literally right across the way, from the killing to a Bojangles restaurant covered in mud and blood that in the bathroom there for the whole night. So there's indications that Ritual definite ritual elements are involved. In this case. The tackles himself said that you know he likes. He wants that, sleep book of witchcraft- and I show in the book that his mother had driven him around the book stores to help find him books, and so I do

you think that there was. It was a ritually involved burner. I do think that it's interesting too talk about they talk about. I think Jason Baldwin said he got alcohol from Damien's mother, I believe, went and got him some whiskey and. Ha he was it was. There was also talk about his girlfriend, who change your name to Domine for again. For these kinds of reasons, And their family and its connection to at least there dabbling in vampirism right doubling in blood drinking just like apples is they write about vamp prism in for magazine, and you know she casually said when she was at that. You know: Now we drink blood, mom, drink blood, everybody drink bud, so that was very common and you know there's all evidence in elements within Equis family that his parents are involved in um different types of witchcraft,

and they talked about that at in West Memphis in West but there was rumors about that. Strangely then, the same year that echoes was arrested. There was a murder that his mother and sister were involved in during a on fire on the the shore of the Mississippi River right there on the eastern part of West Memphis and so so very sketchy very suspicious stuff. There was the death of somebody who's actually living with interesting. And also the community itself and x, or had come in in ninety two and said that there was, you know, incredible, satanic activity, and it says it should have been a warning. This unusual activity in the area. Absolutely I mean I think that there was all kinds of people coming in and talking the police had taken a ton of you know It's from other people. They talked about. Like I talked earlier. These rituals that head stone

Engine that there were other people involved in that, somebody who they never found. Who was supposedly the head of the whole colts in they talked about rates that had taken. Places Stonehenge. There was all types of dog carcasses: and nobody could really explain it. They're just was a sense of fear and what and so after these three guys arrested, there's no more feelings, no more child killings that ever happened in West Memphis, yeah interesting this is an incredible book abomination. I could talk to you for, and hour and a half, but I'm going to have to let you go, but I will want to. Let people know that the work that you have done be more so tell us a little of the titles of the books that you have before and also give a all the information where people might be able to contact you and find out about your other work and tell us about the ad opperman report that you have you're involved with as well, so give us a little bit of plugs for yourself and also just wear

we might find out about your work and how they might be able to contact you for further interested thanks. Then uhm, I wrote profit of evil, which is about Aleister Crowley. That was my first book and then I wrote abomination, and I just finish. The new book called children of the beast, which is about crowleys follower. Not should be available in the next week or two. You can find me on Facebook. I have a ton of information about echo calls on Facebook and at a cold, vestigation that Youtube and I also have a website whichisacoldinvestigations dot com. You can buy books there and you can reach me on any social media, twitter or anything like that and also involved. As a producer with the. Opperman report and he has some excellent interview. With people involved in the West Memphis three case: people, local people, One is had something like two hundred two hundred fifty thousand listens. It's pretty amazing. So. So if you are wanting to get More information about the West Memphis three from a great source check out the Ed Opperman report

yeah, it's a great show. I was just interviewed by Ed last week and I had a great time as a great interviewer and has a really fine program. I've went through the art. I have discovered your program about this Obama, nation in the West, Memphis three and just a fascinating case in a fascinating book, and I want to thank you very much for coming on and sharing it with us this evening. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having you all my show. It went fast thanks again, thank you, goodnight. I take care of tonight.

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