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AGAINST HER WILL-Ronald J. Watkins

2011-04-06 | 🔗
Richard and Victoria Tinyes feared the worst when their thirteen-year-old daughter Kelly Ann vanished from their quiet suburban community of Valley Stream, New York on March 3, 1989. But the nightmare to come was worse than they could ever imagine.Only five doors away, in the home of John and Elizabeth Golub, police found Kelly Ann's body stuffed in a plastic garbage bag. She'd been brutally beaten, stabbed, strangled and mutilated. After weeks of intense investigation, police arrested the Golubs' twenty-one-year-old son, Robert – a reclusive young man obsessed with bodybuilding and given to fits of rage.The sensational trial and subsequent conviction of Robert Golub shocked the nation and tore the once-peaceful community apart. Neighbors took sides. So did the media. And no one who lived on Horton Road would ever be the same.Acclaimed journalist Ronald J. Watkins takes you into the dark heart of an idyllic American suburb, where the savage murder of a young girl shattered the innocence of a town forever. AGAINST HER WILL: The Senseless Murder of Kelly Ann Tinyes-Ronald J. Watkins
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dtk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zukoski in this is your host dance of asking for the programme to murder the most shocking killer. Into true crime. History and the authors have written about them Richard and will
Your times fear the worst when their thirteen year old, daughter, Kelly and vanished from their quiet super in community of Valley stream NY on March Third, nine one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine, but the might nightmares come was worse than they could ever imagine. Only five doors away in the home of John and Elizabeth Gollob Police found Kellyanne's body stuffed in a plastic garbage bag she'd been brutally be stabbed, strangled and mutilated. After weeks of intense investigation, policing said the girl. At twenty one year old Son, Robert Reclusive Young man upset with body building and given to fits of rage, sensational trial and subsequent conviction of Robert the shock, the nation and toward the once peaceful community apart neighbors took sides. So did the media and no one, the dawn, Horton Road would ever be the same acclaim journalist Ronald Jaywalk, and takes you into the dark, hard and of idyllic american suburb, where the
savage murder of a young girl shattered the innocence of a town forever. The book this evening that we will be discussing is against her will by Ronald J Watkins. And hopefully, Ronald J Watkins is ready on the phone, but Don't have Ronald J Watkins, so we have a problem so. Anyway that's the outline of the book against. Her will very well written, very fast paced lots of twist and turn no foregone conclusions in this book whatsoever. Ronald J Watkins is author of, I believe thirty books, not all of them through crime- some, I guess fictional crime novels, but he has done a fair amount. True crime as well in this book is an excellent read against her will by run J Watkins.
I apologize for the confusion on last week's program with Wensley Clarkson. I did not realize it Wensley Clarkson resided in London and I don't know not to blame anyone, but in my emails, are very clear that the gas need to call into a new Jersey number us number to be able to in order to facilitate this interview. As do I as well, we both call into number, I believe in New Jersey and that's the main switchboard and that's the way these interviews are for rotated now people living in London. If I were to know that, and and they were to realise that this is the call any to make into a U S, number, then that long distance call might be quite prohibitive. So my apologies for not finding out where he was residing. I just assumed he was in american author, since he was published by Kensington Press.
And most of those authors reside in America, not all of them, obvious, lay so not sure if he is up. Former resident of the US, but regardless I apologize for last week scheduled interview with Wensley Clarkson, with his excellent book child's child Hopefully we may have a man at another time, but I'm not sure of that. We are looking to get information. I believe that Terry Sullivan, the prosecutor for killer clown is still schedule. Come on the programme, but he had was and is very heavily involved in it Casey Anthony case and I'm sure he would like to speak to people about that case as well. So that case seems to be going on and it's a quite lengthy and have had one guess talk about the Casey Anthony case
with her book Diane fanning. So we have covered a case so far, but didn't now they're in the trial. That was the first book. It was really quite odd that I found where there had not been a actual conviction, conclusion to the trial, and yet there was still a book out published already, which based on speculation, more than obviously the conclusion to a trial or from a conviction or some other conclusion to that trial. Like I said so, it's quite an interesting development because Kensington, as I know, has a rule of not dealing a publishing or wanting to deal with cases that have not had a resolution in the courts. So I would think that that would be probably a general rule and it seems to be as if there is anything that is happening, that a lot of cases that receive the
immediate television coverage, for example, on box or CNN, I think with publishers, are responding. To is that people will fall focus on a certain case for a certain period of time, but then that case and that subsequent interest, but will be replaced by another case that will reply that one usually dramatic or more salacious or more sensational than the previous one. And then we see to forget some of the cases, incredible cases and credible crimes and incredible stories. So I think what the publishers are trying to do is capitalize on that interest at the time that people are still interest in capitalize on that. In the end.
Put out their book at that time, rather than waiting is sometimes they could be considerable time between arrests and convictions for various reasons so and people tend not to have long memories. I apologize for not having my guest Ronald walk in's on the line. Sometimes. The central standard time that I am in the zone, I'm in is confusing to some people again, my I'm going to get a standard to convert time so that they know exactly in their time zone what what time they are to call the program. Sometimes, there are legitimate delays. I'm asking for these very, very busy journalists and authors, and sometimes. You know, lawyers and people with law practices and investigative companies to take out of their crowded schedule
more to come on my program for an hour and talk about their books. So I really do appreciate the time that they do uh put forth to be do these programmes and dumb, and I apologize for those it turned into the programme into a life program with an author that they had already saw the show description and were anticipating of interview with that they're so will out, if you can put up with me for a little bit what his weight and I've send an email to Ronald and maybe he's just a little bit behind and I'm hoping he will join us very soon, and we can talk about his book that prepared to discuss. Marry again well written book, lotta, true crime is, is varying degrees of of writers and
I find that, in my experience that a lot of writers that are as Ronald J Watkins demonstrates in his book his vast experience. Even writing. The thirty books gives him a expertise and sorts, but also his background investigative background, and you know so. He is really, I think, rings that to the book itself and to his writing, and so you have a very detailed book, but at the same time there is so many he's picked a great story and with his access he there's so many twists and turns that you virtually are very much like a fictional story in the twists and turns and sitting on the edge of your seat. Then some of the things that you thought were foregone conclusion so surprises
and when things are reveal them and a very, very good in characterizing and and and drawing us into the characters and and also a painting, a very a graphic picture of what this crime really entails, because many murders are obviously there's. No, nice, murder and there's they're all graphic and disturbing and horrible and terrible. But there are some killers that, for various reasons, when you talking mutilation When you talk torture, when you talk, you mean you talk of those kinds of crimes when it's just not murdered. There is much more that's even more repulsive and disturb and horrible- and this murder has some of those elements, especially given when you're talking about a relatively young man accused of this murder and we'll find out it's it's like I say it's me,
and there are no for foregone conclusions in this book. It's very interesting so it's constructed, but also how the story unwinds as well. What may look like a fairly easy case to conclude that all for very good reasons, so it's a very interesting take on a case and- and I hope we can Ronald on to discuss it, very soon anyway, next week, if you're going to Tunein, I again I apologise for this slip up next week, RON France Cell, and he is the author of many true crime books, including the classic the darkest night and his latest book is delivered from evil, and these are tales from mass murderers, survivors of Mass mer
people who refuse to die, who had a survival instinct people that fought hard and long. To survive and live to tell the tale and were and have to the tail and run France. An excellent journalist and author bestselling author Anna, real favorite among true crime fan, is going to do a book. That's quite unique! Even for him and tackles the subject not really dealt with too often at all, so it's a multiple. It's a many stories of different survivors, not just one survivor of different survivors of mass murder and that book is called delivered from evil and that's wrong friend. So I'll been very excited to have him on. He is like I, a big favorite among true crime readers and gets consistently rate reviews on on true crime, book Reviews
and Amazon Book reviews. A big case he's a great writer and- and this story sounds fast dating and haven't, started it yet, but I'm looking forward to reading it starting tomorrow and I'm sure we'll have a great interview about his latest book. His latest and greatest book delivered from evil. After that we have you see, we have Anthony he's the final and he's going to be talking about king of the godfathers. So we talked I talked about that four weeks ago. We're going do a couple, organized crime stories and then there's another veteran, organized crime, expert, Denny Griff, and he has a show one block radio as well, and I want him to come and talk about the vaguest mob. It's not so much
stories that I have read about myself, and so he has the inside scoop and behind scenes story about Vegas mobsters, so that's Denny, Griffin, veteran journalist and veteran law enforcement officer. Person involved in the legal system, so he has a vast experience as well and his take on through LAS Vegas, mafia and mobsters. After that we have Kevin Sullivan going to be talking about the Bundy murders, he's written and done extensive research on further Bundy murders. One of the most famous Sir real killers ever certainly one of the most interesting charismatic and fascinating and infamous and deranged serial killers of all time, TED Bundy and kept
Sullivan, has written an amazing book talking about other crimes and other things of interest to all people who may be interested in and by the dead body. Of course, I spoken of this before the definitive work about TED Bundy is Obviously I am awhile must read: is the stranger beside me by Ann Rule, a fantastic book, and probably the way I got hooked on. True crime is by reading that book now a major major bestseller in one of the most, the biggest, probably in the top, while it is in the top five two crime books of all time and rules. Stranger beside me, Kevin Sullivan, has done this research and provided much more information and different different perspective. Then stranger beside me, obviously Ann rule, work with TED Bundy and
included all those feelings and all that interaction, an all that perspective and Kevin Cell and comes from a completely different perspective to talk about Bundy murders. More and new information are still very, very shocking and an essential must read as well because- and he really does deserve as many books as you're able to find on TED Bundy. So it's going to be fantastic. I have a couple more cases as well, then I'm going to be talking. I just got turned onto as well, and one of those is a a woman named Genie Mcdonough and any daughter and her husband overpowered, a killer that was about to slip their daughters, throat and it ended up. The killer was a serial killer.
He killed a couple of other women and attacked another one, so they ended up being the reasons they helped capture a cereal. Their book is called caught in the act and its by Jean we're gonna end up Paul. I hope I don't get it wrong, but Leonardo so anyway, that's going to be may 11th that's going to be Jeannie Mcdonagh Excellent book from again a different perspective to almost but two victims have fought hard to overpower the killer, killer and end up cracking the case by their action, saving their daughter and also capturing a serial killer, where- and so these are the very for heroic efforts and now we'll have a book did very
very interesting perspective of her husband and herself and another author talking about how this happened and how they brought the serial killer justice. So that's caught in the act. I have a another book that I'm going to be discussing as well Kim Kentrell from true crime books. Views introduced me to an author. It's about another serial killer sea, see it is about Michael Griesbach or Rice bar I'm sorry, I'm not sure how to pronounces, but ye are. I d ask be a c h this is the story of. The serial killer- and I apologize for this, but any
it's about a serial killer and the perspective of this author in finding an and uh having this the hunt for this serial killer and the investigation into the serial killer. I apologize for not having that title in front of Maine, but it's I will get back to that for May 18th. So there are a lot of programs to look forward to in the near future and so state tuned and again I apologize for this misstep with this guy this evening and I just look and he still not on the air. So if anybody were to like to want to desire to call in to give me any requests or ask any questions, bout, anything about my book, trophy kill or about any other autonomy Gaster any.
Yes, I've already interviewed, I have been getting some requests for me to look into books that they use that term listeners have requested. So I, I appreciate that and I again I will look into those authors and see if they're available like to come on the program, and I appreciate any ideas on programs in the future concerning books that you have read and you think will be great interviews for the program itself. Now what I also wanted to talk about two is that what I've said a couple years ago- and I've mentioned a couple of times when I've had the chance to editorialize Here- is that what was interesting to me is that I've see some development in my ideas. True crime is going mainstream, especially television and, to a lesser degree I guess Hollywood.
My information was based on watching the Zodiac and how big that movie was, and also proposing, and also that was two movies about capacity and in cold blood, of course, in cold blood, probably the biggest selling to crime book ever by what I'm finding is that we see some breakthroughs with Kensington, author and cheese with other publishing companies as well, but a well known to grandmother Aphrodite Jones has a pro Graham on id discovery channel, and so that's an interesting leap from true crime. Author to television, another author that was on my program M, William Phelps, is made the leap as well being involved in television, and the program is in still in creative process, but there
is very well into it and it's going to be serial killer stories, unsolved serial killer stories and I guess those profiles and and will be hosting and involved in the production of this and involved in a big way in the production of this and taking it from again taking his writing experience in true crime, considerable experience and put in this and getting involved in making the crossover into Maine. Stream, or at least television which will expand an audience for again this medium. I believe what I did also see is well is Corey Mitchell, another veteran true crime, author hosting a panel at the S by Sw Music, Indian Film Festival in Texas. Austin, Texas, I believe, but anyway the S by SW, it's many years has been running and
where he had a panel with people that again had a background in true crime who had made successful movies and or television programs involving true crime and some of the biggest true crime stories. And again the gist of the panel was- and this was just a couple of weeks ago- is that you know how for two cram authors to make the transition and and what the audience is. You know the whole situation faces the writer and the potential opportunities. I believe I guess in that some of these people are making there's so many channels are so many opportunities. You can see some of the same things that happened years ago. Come back. You know, horror movies are back I'm over fifty years of age, so I could see what was happening in the 70s which happen in comics. What was happening? Mag disease, what was happening and movies Hollywood aim of these be movies,
It was happening in literature, so you're, seeing some of the same things, because these this true crime is a genre that goes up and down in terms of popularity, like some other things have as well, but I think that the popularity for true crime is expanding an I think it is going to crossover and you're going to see more television and film adaptations of great stories very much like some of the ones that I'm doing on my program. Some of the characters like John Wayne, Gacy TED, Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, to a certain degree, the other. There is no fictional equivalent of these stories. Even criminal minds seems to have so many logical reasons why some of these people kill
and he seemed to be organic brain disorders or traumatic events in these people's lives, and you know that and then, as a result, they profile these people and not to say they don't just. You know also showcase just evil characters as well, but there seems to be a fair amount of explanation which include insanity and enter and trauma for these people are killing and in my experience with true crime, I. I am amazed at how many psychopathic killers there are in all kinds of instances, people that they have the capacity to kill their parents for no real in whatsoever, people that are able to kill our children are.
You know the list goes on and on. I don't have to repeat it for you, but the the lack of conscience remorse ass. He did kill, may mutilate display, laugh, not consider these people is anything but just trash is unfortunately a recurring theme in true crime. It there doesn't see to be so many of the Berne Farm, which is one of the last programs. I did burn farm. You know that woman was insane, but whether she stays in a mental institution or whether she's in prison would make very little difference. You could say well, we could help that person out in it. Insane asylum where they deserve to be an insane asylum rather than a prison. Somehow I just don't think it's going to make that much difference and and as a result
You know I. I can't see much of a debate on this, but certainly that woman exhibited what I would consider to be insane characteristics. Absolutely, however, I I mean the rationale is: if you're capable of doing something, if you lucid, if you try to cover up your tracks or. You know so there's always that, and I like american justice in terms of that point, where they're still trying to get to look at the responsibility for that other person's life and so regardless of of being insane or are having insane thoughts of retribution or righteousness or they had it coming too or whatever it was still. The intent to kill still outweighs everything else, and so, in the end, very
you know when they do have the ability to conduct, they certainly do, and I think that's the main point when you're dealing with cold blooded killers, that's what people want. That's what people expect is to get the full extent of the law handed to these people in terms of sentence. Now we still don't have Ronald J Watkins. Maybe he thought it was an hour different. I, I apologize for this for those that are listening to me. Kind of repeat some of the stuff I did a couple weeks ago. I may take this time to talk about trophy and this is new information, and so, if I have this opportunity until we get Ronald, come on I'll, spend the next little bit
telling you the latest development with the killer that is involved in my book. Trophy kill, I'll, give a brief synopsis of the story for those people that don't know trophy kill. Isn't it a tale of a psychopathic killer that I corresponded with briefly. He walked into a police station. Let me start again on July, first, the movie shall we dance, was being filmed in Winnipeg Susan Serandon called police to report some jewelry, including her gold necklace that you wears in her movie stolen from her her trailer on July. Second, while police were still looking for that, Laurie. Sidney juries calmly, walked into a police station and claim
He had met a man Robin Green the day before they share drinks he passed on intoxicated and when he awoke he found his acquaintance. The victim cut up in his bath up police thought he was kidding because of his demeanor, but they escorted back there the room and found the body of the victim dismembered. Ended. Eight pieces cruelly reassemble for shock value? The body had been disemboweled and castrated d, capitation sign in half, but the eyes were removed. There was some dissection of mutilation, but, more importantly, all of the internal organs had been removed and were never found. Scissors ran will gold. It was thought about three feet away.
Now I realize that this person was psychopathic from the interviews he did immediately after his arrested. That was pretty obvious to me a few weeks later, the police. We turn the jewelry back to the, shall we dance set and said that didn't I think it was. There was any evidence linking the jewelry to the motive for the murder. I thought otherwise, I start corresponding with the killer to write a book about this. This story. And for one year I got all of his background.
All of his early life, everything about his upbringing and after nine months. I then, after gaining his trust, asked him to give me some information about the day in question. He sent me a series of letters outlining every graphic and horrific detail of what he actually did, the dismemberment the he is a necrophile. So I won't go into that. This man refer to his victim as a human trophy and talked about his other enjoyment. In the entire event, dismemberment necrophilia autopsy. Section, removal of the organs, everything and said eighteen diagrams as well. He pulls the question which serial killers anymore, closer resemble, and anyway we first or to the trial. In two thousand and eight, I become the star witness for the prosecution, I brought all of the information to the prosecution into that
and then five after one year and as a result, I became the star witness. The lawyer for the defendant is the most prolific inexperienced. Murder trial, learn English speaking world having defended more killers in anyone else in the English speaking world. His name is Greg Brodsky if he were to discredit me at the trial is client walk based on canadian law five years chastity times two times double credit for pre trial, custody and with manslaughter laws. He would walk out a free man that was point of the whole story. That's why I wrote this book is the sheer absurdity of this. I knew this case would demonstrate the absurdity of the person who was capable of doing this jack the ripper horror spectacle. What I
did get was much more corroborating evidence of his psychopathic cycle. Pathology the real story behind what happened, and why the role of Susan Saran, Duns jewelry in this entire horror spectacle and as I concede other murders my book has been out since last year, trial transcripts have been included, they're very rare, to see trial transcripts. Most people think they're boring in this case there very varying aging and I put a lot of documents in the book, so it doesn't have a typical true crime, look to the book, but the documents were the most powerful way for you to get the information on a very, very powerful story. Now the book is called trophy kill the shall we dance murder the trial revelations of a psychopathic killer. Now,
the book has been doing well, and I just you know everybody is familiar with Facebook. I just received a message on Sunday morning that the killer, whose named Sidney Tear who's, wanted to be friends on Facebook. Now I haven't corresponded with guy, since two thousand and five, we were not friends, we did not have a friendly relationship. It was a business arrangement to write a book. He one of the information that come out after the trial. I had be the evidence I had to the prosecution before the trial and that's all wound up star witness because of the journalism that I had done now. This person has said at trial that he hates me this person.
But what he's already been capable of? I do not want to correspond with this guy. Obviously, now what it looks like those with some investigation- and I'm just looking into this now- is that somebody else is set up this facebook page and that some very interesting things is interests or cannibalism. He has now taken from my look the drawings, which are very, very graphic and has posted them on a facebook page that looks like it is meant to look like that. It is his face, Facebook page for himself, and so it includes everything about his life story, which apparently is in my book and So that's what I'm going to be looking into number one. There was a story just recently in the LA
week or so on. Fox news about a lobbying try to be passed in North Carolina, preventing inmates, having a facebook page or or having using social media sites for communication, making it a actual crime. But when I looked into other laws that certainly no inmate has the right to use the internet or to post on social media sites and with exceptions. People, obviously accessing the internet, so this is in Canada and obviously he's in a federal prison. So I it seems odd that he would be able to do this. Of course, I will look into that. Somebody else is putting this out on his behalf. I believe, rather than he has, rather than the option that he has nothing to do with this. This person is the
narcissistic and psychopathic killer that you have ever seen and as a result, is a media, hound and loves and rebels in every aspect of the murder and details the murder and order iety. He he just loves it. So this is in keeping with that, but I really do think part of the story was that after he was convicted, he was testing the limits of the brand New Manitoba the province. I live in law concerning criminals not being able to profit, no derived their crime by posting his paintings, alongside descriptions of the murder itself and details of the above, this murder. He was investigated, but under the law he he was not under that the writing of the law. He was not guilty of everything to gain from the north to write his crimes when clearly, like I have
I asked the Manitoba Justice, while why can't you just make amendments to this law, because this is the guy that you would have to worry about. It's very rare that the criminal even is in a position. Let alone has the motivation to try to prop often order their crime and when someone does- and you made a law- that's thirty years behind the American. You know the same law- it maybe it's time to make amendments so that you don't have this person continually able to. To get around this law that took you thirty years to draft and to institute so so. Needless to say, this is another self promotion of this person, and- and it is a subtle threat to me as well, that that there are people
are willing to try to access my facebook page or communicate with me or they've, taken true crime book review and then added that true crime book review as a friend on the site they have taken. The photos are part of me to dry, that are exclusively only available in the book trophy kill period and posted them on this site as well taken. Sort of edited versions from my book as well and again at all, looks like it Sidney tear his it. It is written like it is Sidney to use and from a product of his his doing. So that's all we have and and taking my information and trying to associate me with the killers on Facebook page, it's I'm going to make some inquiries find out how this could be done. Talk to a facebook administrator see if we can get this
Bob. I don't want help promote this guy whatsoever. I don't want myself or my book associated with him in some way like I'm working in. Tangent Oregon in tandem with this guy, which is absolutely opposite of what is true. I want to have this person spend the rest of his life in prison and We do not have actual life sentences in this country. He could spend the rest of his life in prison, but routinely we see the exact office within a couple years before his actual parole, first parole date, ability to people. They are already sending him too halfway house. Where did passes to proven and these without it, there is no incidents that would prove that he is ready, potentially to go to a halfway house
or to release date on poor and again, there is no rehabilitating this man. In fact, there are seventeen years before that parole hearing an eye Ann as much as I can going to step up this investigation to try to prove that this person is a serial killer by tracking down the victims themselves. Somehow and
way to do. That is just to speak to Sydney tear used. This man wants to tell you what he has done to brag and boast, and that's what he's done. That's why someone walks into a police station to report a man dead and then blows the police officers mind that gets to see this horror spectacle this washed body, sun and half at the waist decapitated one I punctured one. I removed one nipple cut off one hand partially dissected the legs at the knees, the arms at the elbows reposition in the bathtub on his back towards the door for maximum shock value, a horror, murder, horror spectacle the body
washed all of the organs are removed. All of the organs had been removed. They check the sewer. They check the garbage cans around the area within maybe a mile or two nothing. They check the sewer, nothing. I found out where those organs were what happened with those organs for those listening in America. You have no idea the added horror of our court system that deals with killers like they threw a rock through your garage window like something like it's vandalism. This killer sea
serial killer. I believe- and you will believe it when you read just a little of what he writes, because he intimates alludes to insinuates. He is his latest thing on Facebook. He talks about being a serial killers. Whoever wrote it on behalf of him is now claiming he is a serial killer and their surprised he's only been caught for one murder. They repeat that he's a serial killer now have no idea why anybody would do this. It's not revenge on Sidney, tear his. This is exactly what he wants. Why would they get me involved? Because it's somewhat of a subtle threat that Sidney Tear uses is reaching out to me said. He believes that I
sold store his royalties from this book. He believes because sales are decent with this book that there's an incredible amount of profit that I am not giving him. This is the way he thinks at the same time he's happy but, as he said in court on the witness stand under cross examination, he hates me. He hates me he puts on his facebook page Sidney Tier whose, as Idee any, why tee He are h you, I guess it's incredible. Well. What is put on here. It's another example of the cycle pathology. If this person were to be asked about other murders, he lived in Vancouver for ten years.
Or so nine or ten years he lived in Edmonton well, three years. These are big cities, there's about three million between those two cities for sure. Certainly, and as I say, his dream was to move to Vancouver British Columbia West Coast beautiful city, his wage would
be at least as good there's anywhere and he's a chef one, many in restaurants and he's a junkie self about junkie, alcoholic junkie spent in his money. All is his disposable income on rent drugs. So we made some money, but he moves from Vancouver because goes up north to the Yukon. Briefly, then it goes to Edmonton. Then it goes in a drug clinic for six months six months, so I just speculate. That's where those murders happen and that's why he moved to get away from himself to get away from his murders the capacity
to be able to do what he did the butcher, this human beings and then remove all the organs and take the miles away to dispose of them, because it wanted to create a spectacle that even jack the Ripper didn't commit jack. The ripper did not remove all the organs jack. The ripper sent a kidney to the police. He wrote letters summer disputed, but there's certainly he wrote to the police. He contacted the police, he sent them an organ. He was called the ripper because he displayed organs. He dealt with organs. He that was his signature, is something to do with the organs and the overkill, mutilation and devastation of these people. He blended in that, despite the thousands of police at that time,
started effort to try to have this guy track this guy down. Nobody saw him. Nobody could give a good description. Nobody could find him, even though it it'll only take a few minutes to get to the scene of the crime. He was accelerating in his expanding evolving into more destruction, more mutilation. Sidney tier Hughes, the crime alone, if a wood
in a woman, it would have been an eighteen year old, school girl. This story would be so well known. It would be incredible to be ringing in your ears. Imagine an eighteen year old girl found in the bathtub with her sex organs removed her breasts I won't go into it. Her sexual organs removed in place beside the display and Oliver internal organs missing. And her I removed and another one punctured, one of her breasts, her nipples cut off somebody walked into police station. A man said I would. I met this woman
and when I woke, I you know, would there be, would be outrage that this person then has the opportunity number one? They have the best lawyer in the English speaking world the most experienced lawyer and that's the other, that's the maid. The subject of this work: how far does that guy goaded defend and I'm not naive about how lawyers work so, but you see it it's there, this point And having the opportunity to have the ability to walk out of prison in five years, a free man is ridiculous, ridiculous that even had the opportunity. Now he still had the opportunity when wrote
me, two hundred pages of letters outlining his em all his signature. He talks when you kill a body when a body dies, he talks about every single detail of the murder in the autopsy disposable the organs. With Lee and enjoyment and disregard for humanity itself, and still he had the opportunity to walk out of there a free man. That is ridiculous. That's absurd! That's insane!. So, who cares about the canadian judicial system? Certainly not anybody in America, but it's part of the story. It's part of.
And I you know, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal and I'm not a conservative and I'm not a left wing and I'm not a right wing, I'm just the guy that looks at this and says this shows you what's wrong. This is a case that clearly demo straits that there's something wrong with an attitude that you can rehabilitate most everybody and that drinking reduces your responsibility for murder, because then they can't they have. The prosecution has the prove that the killer had the intent to kill. Sounds ridiculous it is, and when people just look at the brutality and viciousness and senselessness and savagery of of this murder, I don't care if you looking at a good victim or bad, they victim, assistive victim.
But this book, one like any other book, is so far into the criminal mind. You have not read anybody that talks like this. Never you've never seen drawings like this, and then he takes the witness stand for a full day. Testimony that it's interesting when his lawyer trots out all the fanciful tail. The importance of the cycle paths and all these famous people he's been such an important, I guess say the rising star in the culinary industry. Again, all the examples. If you love psychology, you won't believe what you get your privy to is. This is a classic case, the serial killer.
Here, it's not the beginning of it. You know the birth of a serial killer. This is how a serial killer thinks how they really regard their victims. Never not Jeffrey Dahmer, not John Wayne Gacy. Not any of them have spoken like this about their victim and nobody has included. All of these other characteristics sure is nonchalant. There's some killers that are like that. Fifteen, the hours are questioning, and I and II, and even the investigators doubt that these guys did it incredible the composure. But this guy cycle by poverty is on display. He loves the talk and he's articulate, but that just makes firm. You know a deeper.
Inside or a deeper look into this guy's mind how it actually works. Essentially he did this murder just the capitalize on the fame. He knew he would gain from Susan's ran and jewelry, but at the same time, that jewelry has much more meaning than just ending up at that crime scene. Why? What was he doing there.
Did you do Reed's some talk of Sydney down plank that jewelry and I have my ideas why that was is that? I really do think that this person investigated our laws and talked about second degree: murder, vs, first degree, murder. I really don't think he wanted to tell people the motive for the murder and as results other than myself. Nobody looked for that motive for the murder. This person would have been convicted easily a first degree murder in in in the United States, because it would have pulled a bunch of circumstantial things.
The letters which are very very damaging and were crucial in the trial itself that I was involved in the jury, believed my letters or believe my testimony believed the killers testimony believe what he wrote in the letters and believed his diagrams and recommend the stiffest sentence in our provinces. History for second degree, murder, the equivalent of first degree murder, so they recommended the stiffest sentence available period very encouraging the judge believed said, stated essentially believe these letters. So the evil nature of this man was on splay and he was proud too say that information of his his power his evil, the brutality is callousness,
nothing more humiliating and more disturbing than someone that talks about the sheer glee of necrophilia with a decapitated corpse. This person has reached into in pit of evil that no one that I have read is ever gone. I read the happy face killer. I the creation of a serial killer by Jack Olsson, and it was said, he'd just person. I can see it on you to American just discovered it as well as very callous. This
the guard for prostitutes hanging around truck stops and he threw them out this like trash and gay, see, there's not much worse than Gacy in his disregard for the people he tortured and killed. Dahmer. The stories is fantastic, fantastically disturbing and horrific drilling into his victim said pudding. Ajax are trying to turn them into a robot sex robot. You know yet
I did an interview with Don Lasseter. Oh no pardon me. Yes, Don Lasseter die for me, Charles NG, Angie, Ann Leonard Lake. The guys have built a dungeon video tape victims when you start getting pairs of villains, Bernardo Homolka, Ray Parker David re Parker. Well, here we have Ronald Jaywalk, and so maybe we'll go into the second hour. If you'd like to stick with me good evening, run well hi there. How are you I'm very good. I'll always got an hour into our show, but I d like to stay will do will do your book about fine, whatever you got a little mixed up with the time and I apologize but of
already introduced your book to their audience, but I will again, this is against her will, with Ronald J Watkins welcome to the programme J Wilkins. Thank you. Have you been talking about the book for the last hour? Not for the last hour for the first half hour we spoke. I introduced it, and I spoke about some other stories and I was hoping you were going to get on come online. So now we have, we can start the interview, so I apologize for the delay of the time. The time difference. I thought I was five minutes early and it turns out I'm fifty five minutes late. My apology. Ok, we've got a great audience that loves to hear me blab anyway, and I was talking about my book so I had I had made it better to speak. Yeah speak about I vote for another half hour, so I snuck that in anyway. I want to congratulate you. This is a very well written book and, as I explained to the audience, we're talking about.
Kellyanne now, let me make sure I pronounce their as times, but is what is the pronunciation of english and victorious I'm sorry tenuous. Ten years, ok didn't hear me put that down ended serving yes ten years, and it would be John Robert Gallup, yes, column, absolutely, ok! Now, why don't you first describe I like to get the setting of this story as well just go into this. This little suburb in Valley stream in Manhattan, suburb along Ireland. Suburb tell us a little bit about this community. How big is it Its general affluence tell us a little bit both valley stream, and then tell us a little bit about Horton Road, which is obviously in valley stream. Just tell us to get that setting for us sure Valley stream is is
about is a typical american small town you could have? I think a lot of Americans not being from the EU state would have a different impression of it. That this this, this town could just as easily been in Nebraska or Kansas somewhere, not far from many olive those, not the area. He had some one of the early settlements on long island, but it is very middle class, maybe upwardly so, and it's just your average normal small town people, the children, walk to school people, don't action size anymore than the normal of caution for their safety. It, sir, a low cry area under this murder was very shocking note to the community. A Horton road is up just one
the streets. The neighbors are typically held a block party stare and would block it all. On Halloween to keep the children from LA wandering around and and MRS Gollop, the wife of a Robert go up been involved in a campaign not long before the murder they have We made one way in order to minimize the amount of traffic that went up and down the street. So she was. She is a fairly well known the Kelly answer. Parents lived five: how the way of the near the corner. They were now neighbours who do each other in the middle. You know each other by sight to wave, and I don't recall you know I wrote the book back in nineteen. Ninety four, the team- and I was that's what I was last on the street seems to me.
There were eighteen houses on Horton Road, something like that yeah. You say nineteen families without nicely. Mr rack love yeah, so it it was about a close knit little neighbourhood. It was so like you save the small small Tal America and there was a specially sort of close knit, they close it out three times a year for a block party. So that's pretty interesting, dynamic there for that little Horton Road. So now tell us about term the goal of family John and tell us about the family and and then tell us about the sun's Robert, and John Jay. The senior gollop ASEAN ran a service station, not, but all that far from house his wife, her worked in office or a bank, something like that
and then they had lived here for some time. John a refugee Robert DE the sun, was, if I recall correctly, twenty one their young John Jay was Kelly's age like thirteen, maybe fourteen she met about turn. Fourteen labour classmates and. They had the boys, I believe they believe they are nearly all of their lives. Mr Mrs Geniuses edges lived down the street Kelly, anxious thirteen different border to place our Friday. She was fourteen the following Sunday, She had eight year old brother Richie. I don't recall if there's another the child in the in the genius homer, not not bother with it.
Her father. I ran a m, an auto restoration business and her mother, were I don't recall in an office something I can't write. So there was. Was there anything really evident in his upbringing? That was the ordinary? Was there any running with the law was truancy? What was he really like as a year as a person as characterized by his interactions with his classmates and say other neighbours? What was by all impressions before this time, what was Robert known as what was his character generally regarded as my recollection, is that there had been no prior incidents, the interesting, an interesting aspect of the family. I don't know that bears on the story at all, but just sort of an oddity is there are. These are all pretty short people
and the father was not much over five feet tall. His the butter just a little bit shorter than him at the significant it is that Robert Gollop himself is very short. I don't recall- Zack hated, would argue very survival. Two vital three or maybe right in that range and like some very short men, compensated by being a weightlifter routinely, went to throw away room where he, where he worked out and was quite muscular even for his short short size. It came out of the investigation that he then like some away, which is wait. Litters do body builders, you have been using steroids and there was some. The question was raised as to whether not steroid use might have somehow contributed to the offense, but no, there was a positive conclusion made that that was the case.
Right Now- and he was a bit of a lily about the didn't, really work- didn't keep, did he jobs, but then he was. That's probably pretty common of love, young man, his age about software jerk now on the day in question Friday March. Third, one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine, and the thing is- is that yeah uh march. Third, one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine take us back to what was happening. With Kelly, Kellyanne Tennis and what happened that day in the afternoon, tell us a little bit. What was she supposed to do? What she do take us back to her home and that She had been at school that day and after school her parents were very close to the house for their legitimate smoked community.
And she was going to go to grant park. I believe there was still life to do it ice gate and said she was hold. This should have to go home and they she said her eight year old brother was. She did not want to do. If I recall correctly, she was supposed to go to a slumber party that night and they're getting ready for her for her birthday and friends and bought up a gift for really give her and she would she got home she was sitting her Richie her younger brother, and it was talking to a girlfriend complaining about having to stay stay home and that she had to just go to grant park. Anyway and that in a little after three o clock in the afternoon to telephone call now. She told her brother that Europe is going down the street after that and calls and would be right back here, the the the call it she she told me. She told her brother. The call was from
and it she ended, there was a delay from a time she received a call till she left ten or fifteen minutes. She said she wanted to go down the street to see her girlfriend and then she would be right back she didn't come back. And the other on Acta. Ok, sorry sold so the brother, then, because she was both a baby. Sit him he he read it out on her and called the mother I guess he was entirely yeah. I think went down. You know, I think he went down to the first, ok tell her sister she had come home. Well said she had seen her. Ok right, the agenda was up. There is a point in time, the other, a law. That is a lot that would yield which come back the parrots very concerned, and so they don't they. They start looking for the girl and knocking on doors. Have you seen Kelly? Yes? And someone said they had seen her go to the gallop
We seemed unusual because they were not friends and even though the younger gala boy, John Jay, in her work the same age? They were not known to hang out with each other, and I saw it. It was sort of unusual and they went to the door. Under we hold you answer, but United Kelly had come there, the family kept looking for Kelly called the police. Learn they couldn't make a missing persons report till the next day, Kelly's mother called the home. All as I recall very lay like midnight or something and were up. And explain: a daughter was missing a been singled out of the house and was assured that Kelly
was not. There had not been there, so it wasn't until the next morning, when a juvenile police officer were responded to the missing persons complaint that Poland official search begin. Now parents were were like you say they start almost started investigation right away because the police, you can't do anything with a missing person, thing right away themselves, and so they had spoken to a couple of kids that had said they had seen. Ah Kelly go into the gallop. Which was a hairy Finney, which is six years old and then Sharon's Stoneham. So it was too so. Police then interviewed those children and what did those children say about what they had and told the opinion?
Oh well, my recollection is that they had seen her ago go to the goal of house and go inside the house and who had let them in switch which one of the world's assets it might be you tell me how to recall a or they seem to be the one witness, it was John Jay had up the door was very confident that that's who had opened the door and she said the call was from John one of the interesting things. If, if you go to, Amazon reader reviews are generally speaking, Views are very positive and then there are a few that extremely negative, And if you read the reviews, you'll see the reason, their negativism, his objection to the book itself, but because I don't believe that Robert Gollop murdered her by yourself. They think Jason that he was not alone
and they commonly they will say that those who think more than one person was above point the finger at John Jay. And part of the reason for that is the call was allegedly from John and then you're, saying that one of the children said it was John J. You answered the door Now there are a couple witnesses that right away say that they can account for John Jay because they say that they're in the house smoking some weed in the room and then so. They also testify This is where John Jay was, and because we were here, one is reluctant to save a smoke away, but the other guy said they were smoking, some weed when they also testified that Robert was alone listening to a stereo. So tell us a little bit about that
Well, the yeah. The story was that the John Jay was upstairs with two of his friends in his room. Smoking Dope Robert was not with them. I took two story house with with the extensive kinds of basements that are common in that part of part of the country by little to want to back up to help her body was found. Before we talk too much about what happened in the whoa. Ok well well tell to tell us what how was the police were able to that. It was interesting. Is that the cooperation from dollar family, your families? Are you know when the other four you you'd you talk about in your book? Certainly the father quickly realized that it was a pretty good day possibility of one or two of his sons were involved in this somehow, and yet he still cooperate. Tell us
little bit about how the police were able to get that warrant because they weren't able to get that warrant. The case could come out complete. The different you about my recollection is: is that the did the police officers interview that his family and this did not sound like the normal runaway or were a girl. Might stay away overnight with a boyfriend or something with her birthday. She was supposed to be the slumber party. This is a nice family, although you never know, what's going on behind the walls of any home And but so that they took it fury. Clearly they were the same information the family in which is that there were people who had seen her enter the Gollop home. My recollection is- and if you read the book recently, maybe now recall it differently, but that a recollection is that they had the the Father sign up the consent, for
which allowed them to search the home. There was an innovation of the of the police department and an apparent where you know innocent in this. They there they wanted to cooperate. Nay they had been. By their children. The girl had not been there, so they didn't have a problem with the police searching and the course of the search they discovered her body in the basement in a sleeping bag stuff to the closet, at which point the homicide detectives work, were the father, if I recall correctly, was in the basement, helping the police search right It was interesting to is that John Jay, the fourteen year old, actually urged his mother to sign. They, the F B, I remember that the compromise to actually search. So that was another interesting well other interesting ass back to the ever. I don't know you know you can't know what happened
and the logical conclusions aren't always true, but you know I remembered. I know I have a younger brother and I number we with proud the neighbourhood and sometimes getting them mischief, maybe do something that was against the rules. My brother was always kind of eager to point my parents in that direction. That was sort of the way I interpreted this. Maybe I was wrong that he he knew his brother done something and he didn't mind you know making it making it easier for him to get caught interesting. Now, in that sir Search, you talked about, they found the naked body of the fourteen year old Kelly Antennas in this sleeping back. If you don't mind it used, you go as far as you would like to go, but if to could describe it, because this is a particularly unique
help arid areas. Well, how cancer will you go? This is this. Is this is a more shocking killers in true crime history? This the stories called, I always calls up, you can go. I people can hamlet because they're they're gonna have to read it in your book in it so far more graphic in your book. I would think so well the when they, finally, the homicide detectives arrived and they they take it all the photographs and sealed the crime scene in the basement. The detective told me that the first thing you notice before they even remove the body that he could tell the murdered happened in the in the basement that there was there was blood everywhere, and it was clear that something very violent, happy in a basement, he said when he unzip the body which was already starting to the caves. This the smell was very strong, even though this was lesson twenty four hours since the murder
she had been vivisection, she had been gutted while she was still alive and that's what killed her. The cops. The example I draw late in the book is that while much was made of of the steroids and later of satanic panic rights- and the truth is, this- was a sailor, masochistic murder, much like Jack, the Ripper in London in the night century, the murderer had had got it. His victim seamen was discovered on the body, but it had been a play. There are two masturbation, not any sexual activity with the body and the sexual arousal appears to have occured from the from. There is actually a living human being.
Along with that, there was incredible bruising. While the person was alive. You you refer to it as The head and face were destroyed. The police believed that she had been seized at the doorway and from the start from the start, she wasn't lured into the base but or anything like that, she was grabbed by the hair. Slammed into war wall about, oh, so strong that it that it then it would have that alone might have ultimately have caused her death, and then she was taken down into the basement. The other interesting aspect of it, but I've never encountered anywhere else, is that there were extensive enough her body, but not be wasn't done by nice day. They were not able initially
determine what instrument been used. User was a world war, one german dad down there on initially suspicion was directed at the been the murder weapon, but it was not the medium forensic pathologist finally determined that she had cut open using shards have broken glass because it it's a peculiar to track incision caused by the by the glass. Now the interesting part of that is, if you look at the murder, then it tells you it's unplanned right. If you're going to going to cut someone like this and kill them,
then you would at least take the time to have a knife idly in. The murder was in such a frenzy. Just six incredibly violated the homicide detectives. I talked to Toby they never before in ever since saw body so utterly brutalized. Guess her body was right yeah. They said it that you say in your book, yet they couldn't determine whether the colleagues had been raped, cuz. He had cut the vagina and the anus, and that was like tin in terms of slicing a rope and it was. She was sliced up that way, so they couldn't even tell but, like you say that there was of course the sexual nature, and it always is it's just mixed in with murder. You know so you know for normal people, it's hard understand how taking life and in doing this to a body could be actually arousing, but first deviance it is managed
yes and that so I thought I got off. That's a characteristic of these guys and it's not yet him. It's just common characteristic here now, a small minority, but you know when the population of three hundred million there is a bunch of Am Anna yeah. Some people are worried that it might be a growing trend as well, so certainly not getting any better. So now now, what did the police conclude food from this search and there is some other things that they find as well talk about what they thought they found was a bloody print, a doorway, I believe, to the closet, and they were very initially excited about that. It looked like a print in blood, so what else did police force
find in their obviously, then? Now, once I've got the body and now it's going to be taken to the pathologist for autopsy? What are the police now. Looking for and finding and tell us 'cause this. An important part of the story, at least for for visual, is that what's the state of this house, especially the basement itself,. Yeah the uh, the the detective told me he said the bizarre. The bizarre problem they had is that the parents were upstairs with the other son. A friend who is an attorney had come over said he was just a friend but everyone he was giving legal advice. Yeah they didn't have a search warrant, they just had permission of the family to be there, and he said you had. He said: I've never had a crime scene before were People were living in the house were actually in the house
He said normally a crime scene, you exclude everyone except the investigators, but that isn't what was happening and they needed to do an investigation beyond the basement. They need to look in the rest of the house but bore up they're moving around and he said he had no idea of what evidence was being droid or hidden accidentally. They had to obtain a search warrant ultimately, and he said he's never. He was never able to resolve how much obviously investigation might have occurred as a consequence of that. To say the mother was not a good housekeeper would probably be the understatement of the century. She was collector, possesses a tv show now about that order. Lighting, yeah, she's, a hoarder and the place you I mean you can hardly move the place was so I had an aunt who who kept a very neat house, but she did
put anything away and every time I go visit her, he was a shared future that easier to apologize. Then pick up the house and I would have to wait five minutes why she cleared off enough room for me to sit on the couch, because every every open place in the house has stopped stuff piled on it in this house was like that in the basement was even worse. It was like things have just been pit, they're from the top of the stairs. There was just no order to it at all. It made the forensic examination very, very complicated. The other part of this. I want to keep in mind. Ears were talking one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine and the level of forensic science at that time is not where it is today, and dna testing has only just begun and the police were accustomed to with blue
samples of using the old serum systems, where you did classification by blood type, and then there would be. I forgot the name for it, but there would be different at different elements within the blood that could could systematically eliminate people as suspects and- and they were initially depending on that- because dna testing was so slow and they didn't have any face in it. Yet because I have this at this point in time- no criminal case, in the state of New York had been solved by dna yet it was all new to these officers and they weren't sure they could, even though they had lots of blood. They were pressure was from Kelly, but they were beginning to suspect some of the blood might be fit for the murder and self, and so they were, they were taking samples everywhere now in terms of the potential
aspects uh, I guess we could say that John Jay, the fourteen year old and Robert, are the chief suspects of this. So far from what you've explained Now, obviously they interview John Jay, and then they interview Robert now, with idea that you just mentioned that potentially there could have been the perpetrators blood. They were looking for abrasions on John Jay. And on Robert or any other potential sunlight. For about about the interview with Robert four now three as an alibi, each other and a Robert just robber disappear been by himself, but when the police for questioning them- and they were saying that nobody come into the house and they couldn't explain now the body got there. They noticed that the John Jay had cuts on his hands. As I said earlier, he was very powerfully built one of the. What are the initial impressions? The first thing, the policeman dead,
no John Jay and his friends are like one thousand three hundred and fourteen years old, and they just about like he expect three geeky kids, smoking dope and then here's this weight, lifter the short but very powerfully built and he's got cuts on his hands yeah. And so you know this isn't rocket science. One of the one of the peculiarities of this homicide is that the only suspects for these four guys, because nobody- this was in the house at this time by telling their story that nobody had come there. They had illuminated the possibility that anyone else who committed the murder, therefore it had to be one of them right now. The other thing was is that Robert didn't have much of a reason for those cuts on his hand. It didn't seem that plausable. But the thing that's interesting about this- and I talked about my book where we're dealing with cycle paths,
cool pathic killers. What was Roberts demeanor in the fifteen hours that he was questioned relentlessly by police when they realized he was a main suspect? What was his demeanor and then what was almost? What was the conclusion from what was the reaction from police after encountering this day? Here you have to refresh my memory as I wrote this book in nineteen. Ninety four and I I don't recall offhand, I could. I could speculate based on who he was, but what did I write and I roll Robert really people who did the fifteen our interview and in that interview there were police even seizes the sea. Veterans? Even I don't know if it was Richard Wells, the main main character in questioning this person, but there were sir, they encountered this guy having a story
down and not being able to be shaken. They tried to appeal his humanity, but he stuck with historian story. His demeanor was steady so as why talked about psychopathic characters in that the only people that are able to do this under that kind of questioning. Now, what would you do not have the still not have the the what you would call normal reaction to their neighbour being killed him being accused? So what you do you think about it? You know they, though, does this give considerate, you're you're taking to the police department, and you're being questioned and you're clearly a suspect brutal homicide. You know guilty people pacing the room there upset they deny. It is emotional, the accused child, molesting or murdering. This is a horrible thing and you realize your risk because the police
are focusing on you, but the deep psychopath sociopaths. What's what what they used today for him thought we're ok Day Day day. They will have no conscience, they feel no guilt, their glib liars livin been lying all their life. And a very controlled and of course they know they're guilty and the sullen common, let alone and reformers to fall asleep concerned. They are there and he he could not. There was a moment if I recall correctly, when the detective thought he he had him just about ready to come clean company. He clamp down in agenda two thousand if they ever got two up a confession from him. Any
you talked about in your book to that that the laws are changed in in the state so that if they didn't really get a confession, it was unlikely that they were going to get a conviction if they didn't get. This confession be there's. Obviously a lawyer comes into play at some point and then everything you know there is no more information to be had, and now in this case it seems to be a slam dunk because it had to be someone- and I think that's a lot of people might say. Well how hard can this be this conviction? It does become hard because of state law and just the steadfastness of this killer itself, so they questioned him, but police are not able to make an array. Yeah they are based on the other. There were problems with this case. A purse of they said you had
moving about and what was crime scene so got complicated evidence gathering. There are potentially fourth suspects for twenty two attorney the way they they get murder's office is they they paint a picture of who else could have been the killer? You got at least three other people. And then the they don't have a convention. The police were not initially in the house with a search warrant because of how of how the mist person case unfolded and- and there were lots of legal tripwires- that the leash realized big date, they could stumbled over. You mention the the bloody palmprint earlier. They really thought they had it. They thought that they had the killers palm print from when he had placed her body into the closet, and in fact I think that is exactly what they had
and what they did was they cut the door jam out, bagged it and in the end there were taken away and they have the finger print. The animal then take the pressure off. The dumb was apparently damaged some way in transit and them transit and my recollections correct. They used to We did a very new technique where they sealed it in they released a spray of super glue. Apparently, this is a common technique used today at that time was very unusual and they were able to two to lift a print from it, but I don't we always very longer. If the print played a role in the prosecution or not. What they did is it was damaged in transit to the point where there was someone came forward and said: listen, I think I might be able to reconstruct it through photographs. So,
but there was another circumstantial evidence, but now you baby became it became, but it is a palmprint and it s not a fingerprint and so that their becomes, of course, it's a bone of contention at the trial. Certainly now, so, how do? How does a detective proceed with this if they can't arrest them? The other thing that we might not mentioned that there is some other evidence is found at the house, including attache cases that seemed to be soaked in blood, but also they was a mystery for quite a while and then but being important later in there. They found, in attaching case with some clothing that ends up being the victims, but also- and attaching case will looks like empty lot, containers but receptacles for something, and they can't figure out what they this becomes later important when it ends up being antique pocket. Watches from the gold family then end up being part of this evidence as well,
and they find out later much later than tat. Of course, Robert Cash is those in at the Pawn shop a day or so before the murder so another bit of circumstantial evidence pointing two, I'm not sure if that has anything to do with motive, but it certainly paints a picture of Robert anyway and puts him. Obviously you know handling. Those attach a case is so you know, there's a situation, the police, a prosecutor, ultimately hat a young girl that goes to this house vanishes into it, and you have four, but one young man entreaty
change voice. Young teenage boys in the house, she's brutally murdered in the basement. Now either they or one of them did it or you have a phantom killer, but somehow snuck her into the into the house, murder and snack off, and it's got to be one of those it is not any other explanation, Ryan, and yet we have to put the evidence together to say who who did it As I said earlier, there are those people who don't believe that did it, the robber girl did flown now that I spent hours our days with these policemen am in spoke is extremely. Ashton and repeatedly about about how they know for a fact. There was only one killer answer was
there's no forensic evidence on her body of two people that when two people are involved in the salt there's evidence of it and there was no evidence in the basement itself that two people have been involved in the and when they lifted the blood and they lifted the sperm and they ran the tests. The tests were all of the body. Fluids came from two people, Robert Galopante and the victim. Nobody else. So did did John Jay lure her over. I don't know why I mean she didn't know. She didn't know him she. No Robert wives, you go to the girl. A passive Robert Calder Collars was John. She said it was John to his shoulder. Rather.
I said earlier, one of the young witnesses said that it was John Jay went to the door. I could conjecture as to what happened, but to police and then in the police conjectured. They thought about a too, but they could not find any evidence Yunus until it evidence that there was a second second assailant involved in a murder right. Yeah there was something that I found. Interesting too, is that there was another girl that came forward and claimed that she had not on they seen Kellyanne screaming from atop window an upstairs window that she had also seen the actual my whereby members of the iter Your family multinationals somehow seen both held her little wood metal, little girl, yeah right, yeah I'll, buy you a very until their organism.
The other elements of this that almost reminded me of the Salem Witch witch trials. You know there was a certain amount of hysteria that was occuring. People need think about with his life is a nice peaceful little street. This daughter in her city ghetto or a violent prone areas, a nice little ST. This is street. Wear your thirteen year old daughter can walk down the street in you're not gonna, be concerned and it for this brutal crying to happen in this base, it caused everyone to read to to re, examine what kind of neighbourhood we live in. What are these people who live here really like the gallops you're sort of stated to themselves? As I say,
MRS developer. That involved in the effort to get ST made one way they were respected members at this neighborhood. Well, if these people could have a murder in their house who else what else is going on here, Ann an imagination because of the brutality of this murder and because this is the way the the story slowly unfolded in the newspaper and on television, the worst we're talking about it here in forty minutes and were where lay the thought pull out fairly quickly and when the reader reads the book, that's the way they will read it but that isn't the way it happened in the neighborhood little by little. More and more of this came out and it you know, people who don't do this kind of work for a living or maybe maybe today with with with the cable television shows that we have,
people are more aware of this now than they used to be, but it's hard for the average person to really understand that people like this exist and that they exist in their neighborhood and that man like this could murder one of their children in such a brutal and savage way the other. It would really could do anything is possible. The other aspect of your book, though, is it. You spent considerable time describing the scene following the discovery of the body, the suspicion that Kelly and is at the home, and then what how the neighbors react, how the gallops react. You know it's so tell us a little bit about that, because there is very close to the police. Are called constantly for allegations of abuse and harassment, so tell us a little bit
that it's a fascinating story as well years ago, I lived in Central Phoenix the street very much like Horton Horton Road and there were flashing lights outside and I walked outside and there was a police car. It turned out that one of our neighbors who lived in a red would beat the crap out of his wife. She called the police. Well, he didn't want to go and the police were trying to talk their way through the situation well before they finally arrested him and took him away. There must have been twenty five or thirty of us gathered outside to watch the spectacle and that's what happened in Horton Road once the word spread in the neighborhood like wild, fire that a body had been found in this house and the neighbors start gathering outside a vigil. The parents are there.
This is our daughter, you know if he is to produce, have been our daughters fate in in the police. So they don't want to say they don't how they they mean news. There was so much damage done to her face there, not the meeting. They know it's her. It's got to be her, but they dont know no, not in the sense when you go to someone and say, if I recall correctly correctly, who identified the body. As I recall it's, not one of the parents, who is somebody, who knew no was. I don't know if it was a lawyer that was involved with them, a friend of the family lawyer review, or something like that, so they didn't want that they didn't want to police, didn't want the parents to have to see their daughter like this? No so, but they had, they had to put their mind a lot of these, but they had to let the parents know that their daughter was dead and they wanted to identify who she was for a fat
even though they did at much doubt who she was, and, if I recall correctly, Robert but AEGIS, did. He is wander off any go off somewhere, hang out had to put him under police. They had to put him under police surveillance because the idea of their killer it'll here who did they were following any alluded themselves them so and and here the the continual once once Robert is incarcerated and bail is prohibitive. I once that happens. The family still is the goal of family and that, while both of them are claiming both of the parents and the families are acting unreasonable toward each other and other, whereas on the street itself, and that is to say the least, to get very heated, there's been firecrackers and guns being shy
off and saw some serious not going on and that continues right to the trial. So did the other part of the story. The entreaty and the reason I wrote the book without destroyed the neighborhood. You know initially, you know it's like the the name. Initially, I love the neighbours is withheld judgment which you you did a little back start to come out and then seeing the people begin to choose. I note with some whose, besides you going to believe. And there were very unpleasant interactions between the family. Up through the trial and then for several years afterwards site, as I recall, I think I was researching this story about three years after after events and on and there was there had been a lot of interaction between the family de the m. There was tat
originally the neighborhood, wanted by the house and turn it into a park dedicated to Kelly, but that never happened, and course adults couldn't sell the house who wants to enter the house. They were there. I think I heard recently I think, I'm an email from someone telling me is it. The house had finally been sold in the gulfs we're moving well, but you know you know I I would have stayed in the neighborhood. It is in my daughter that was ordered. I wouldn't want to live there were all that happened. You know sort of like I kind of thought. It was curious. Both family stayed right well, one of the conclusions are reached. Is you know for the for the tenuous family delayed grieving. By being in this antagonistic relationship with the goal of family. Will the commission we can say what we want to about Mr Mrs Gollop, and how she wasn't a good housekeeper, maybe as if they were, maybe
is an odd guy, but the fact is, they didn't have anything to do with this murder train the ended to due to what extent they raced the monster bite me. I don't know I don't families that had damn near five, wonderful children and the first was a psychopath and I've got families that were where the children were all what Allah all this career criminals and one of them was a road scholar. You know I just wish to point in life right, you just don't know and- and you know they wanted to believe their son was in a symptom for a while they seem to accept that he was guilty and there was a point in time: In the trial where they seem to form the opinion that he wasn't guilty, but at the time I wrote the book the father had and for three years did you have to go visit a son? I don't little over
yeah, let's sort it tells you something for sure you don't it I'll tell you something else at some point were common sense has to take over for a while there. The father, like you say at first, was cooperative in and probably actually believe that a sunset some to do with it and then at some point did adopt a more of a defensive thing in terms of saint it. Maybe somebody snuck in indigenous and so like, but the EU is but the fight at the neighborhood before the trial. Then the fight at the trial was interesting to see, usually have that much disturbance and worrying at a trial itself, but you certainly had it at this one and the media you're. One of the questions. I think people have their ask us how much the media influenced what heard, because this was one of the first murders I believe it was covered by court. Tv.
And the tabloids New York tabloids were all over the story. The this. This court ruin court trial, the Amy Fisher Murder happened, damn shooting rather happened the body years later and it's a lot. The same players same courtroom same invest year. Some same prosecutor prosecute novice end up. This was the detective told me he said you know in the time that we were investigating this murder and bringing him to trial. He said lots of young women were murdered. Lots of thirteen year old girls were killed. He said I could never figure out what the media obsession with this particular murder was. The ultimate lady, the reaction of the neighbors they possess
stories of some of the kids were telling it just became a of of the media frenzy and in the media coverage itself, unconvinced sort of FED on itself and influenced a lot of this confrontation between between the families of the neighbors. Yeah, I certainly can agree with you there. Another sort of substitute subtext to your story is that the the diligent and relentless detective Richard Wells he's forty nine years old and he takes his job very very seriously, and this guys having a heart attack and still doesn't want to go to the hospital he ends up in the hospital. But then his biggest worry is not dying, but you know having to give up police work, so he's a real character. You know you can't you can't create these kind of guys. You know this guys. You know so he's a very interesting
character and Mary and rate unrelenting for make up the great glass data you know of one of the pleasures I've had it in my in my life is but the opportunity to get to know a number of homicide, eat, they are really a special breed, these guys a year they really take. There were curiously, he took he took a photograph of her and put it in his wallet to remind himself every day this. This is due in investigation, for you know that you related body that he saw on the basement. Wasn't Kelly Kelly was you know the pretty smiling you're on the cover of the book? That's yeah let us you know. I know that I had the great opportunity to meet. You know when I involved in my case of the homicide cop. That was involved, as the lead detective was the guy that help me keep my sanity, because I ended up
by virtue of my journalism and ended up being a witness at this trial. So the person that helped me stay, grounded and made me feel like what I was doing was important and anytime. I wanted to reach out and talk to him. He was there. I spoke to another homicide detective that is actually the head of the police Association and he thanked me for my efforts and I said to both of these guys that that is the the police that everyone has to respect its the job now no one wants nobody wants to go into these crime scenes how you ever going to get those images out of your head and then they still have to be courteous and polite and respectful to these people that
you- and I would I don't know what we would do to these people when they're smiling and they have to go to the autopsies. You know they have to be there for the collection of the evidence. They don't get the images that it's like it's like combat veterans. You know you. Never you never shake these. These images of these. You never do now now what was the end result at the trial of Robert Gollub, but he was convicted of the murder. I didn't think you put all that good, a defence, but you know I spoke with his defence tourney, and you know you you, you know these criminal defence attorneys are also cover their own, their own breed. Some of them. Are you see it? You see it all the time
the newspapers on television or their ideas are going to get there going to get the guy out. No matter what you know by any by crook and it's up to the to the the prosecution to prosecution, prove their case by God, and if they get a guilty person off to some technicality, then then I says he was innocent or she was innocent. But a lot of a lot of these criminal defense attorneys take a different tack there their view their job is making sure that the state does what it's supposed to do. That is not railroading the wrong guy, that the level of evidence rises to the legal standard and they're there to present zealous defense for their client, but they don't think they're there to break the rules. They don't think they're there to do any dirt, that it takes to get their guy off their giant to defend their client and- and he was that kind of a defense attorney.
And you know: that's that's what, if it's true, I could live with him. If you have, I was ever charges which kind we want to have better worked hard at defending Robert. You have a lot to work with once the court room on the dna, and you know I think the problem the problem juries have in cases like this is what kind of get hung up on on motive. You know 'cause it's hard, it's hard to get people to understand that the mutilated body is that's right. That's the moat! Either he didn't, while he don't want steel money from our reading we want to. He didn't want to. Rape are and lock her in a room where he could have sexual access to her. Keep want to drive his sadomasochistic sexual pleasure from from getting her why she was still alive and that that would aroused him. That's what brought him. What he wanted
yeah. There's no logical, yeah. There's, no logical reasoning. That's what people try to apply some kind of their own sense of logic. For the reasoning for the motive and the motive like you say is is the simple act of committing the murder in mutilation and then from that becomes a sexual release and and then from there who knows like in some cases that they want to taunt the victim they want to talk to police. They want to be famous, it's there's not as a whole as all kinds again, you can fly normal, logical reasoning with these people at all. I spoke to a psychiatrist who specialized in. In and psychology in deviant psychology and asked him about this- and he said, Look said when these guys go off to prison. He said they. We they remember everything they did down to the smallest
detail. This is a memory they have soaked in like a sponge and- and he said these guys, get off on this murder again and again and again they were they. They put it away in a mental library and they bring that the motion picture out with regularity. He sent it on the rare occasions. These guys decide to come clean and tell the truth. It could be twenty years later. They can be thirty years later and they will be able to give the police specific details of that murder that the police didn't even figure out the time and if they've committed thirty murders, they remember every single one of them, just as vividly.
Robert Gallup has relived his murder and mutilation of this young girl one thousand times since he did it. That's his own little fantasy now, yeah certainly certainly uh had the same experience myself and The person continues to try to drum up publicity and contact the media and do everything to relive this and is very proud of his crime, very proud of his murder and his celebrity that he's gained as a result, it's in it was. I know what you're talking about what I wanted to make do, as I like that you had said something that is. Very rare, because I think some people want to give the benefits of doubt to our beloved judicial system. But when you talked about a very vigorous defense by a defense attorney, we have a little different situation in Canada, where we don't have the judge or the judicial system
sign the accused. A lawyer. In fact, the accused has a pic of law as long as that lawyers willing to take the lesser fee of which called legal aid but in particular case that I was involved with. That particular lawyer boasts about being the most experience and prolific murder trial lawyer in the English speaking world, with about seven hundred cases on belt, and when we talk about a vigorous defense, I agree with you that there are certain see, I think some people have lost their moral compass, because you, the the right for an accused to have a defense, does not mean that you grandstand at press releases and that you actually lie for your client or have them lie on the stand, and you see various levels of vigorous
fence, but at least when the state is paying for it. You see that at least that lawyer, that defense lawyer doesn't go into the realm of trying to discredit witnesses and n VIC comes and, as you had mentioned, there are various levels of what a lawyer will do according to his own ethical standards. It's it's just as homicide, detective story, Bree these criminal defence attorneys color by their own unique breed as well and down. I've talked the number of them about it and how they rationalize what they do. You know the lawyer once told me. He said everything you need to know about the law you can get out of a book. He said the reason you go to law school isn't to learn both law
learn how to think like a lawyer. Mrs Villiers, let it out the justice here, that's how you can defend someone like Beauregard. Absolutely now are we just have about five minutes or so, but I just wanted to tell people use you meant that you got this book and ninety four, maybe you can tell us what you're what your latest project is an or maybe the last project that you have done and to tell us a little bit about you're, some of the books that you written in this true crime, John ran and maybe something that you're working on right. Now but one of the reasons it is a vague on this. But this is the last your crime book. I wrote, I had written any of them since then. I write about mysteries and nonfiction. I have a book that now out of print in English, called unknown, sees the history of the Portuguese discoveries it'll be published in Brazil next month, but I'm
currently a writing. These summit murder theories, which is the theory, is a murder. Mystery set atop the highest mountain of each of the world, seven seven highest peak and the first of the murder on Everest came out last year. The concept is that you take a mountain, climbing expeditions going to climb Everest Mt Everest surmount Mckinley Europe. I concur with South America and you add all the danger that goes with being in a remote place in climbing and then you add a murder mystery to it. And makes fix for an interesting story. It's a series of seven books. Currently writing a book number five, being released about six months apart, but the summit or to serious reader should start with murder on Everest. Am I I do a lot of ghostwriting for businessmen, memoirs
people who have an idea of a novel that they would like to like to have written for them, ghost riding my main, my husband, my main support here for the last fifteen twenty years. But I shall find time to write my own books under fire. And do you have a website where the people sure contact with you yeah they can go to ronaldjwatkins dot com or if They're interested in them and see, what I do is against writer, they can go to the shorter name, RON, Watkins dot com, where the content on at least now how many true crime books. Did you end operating, including against her what not not many you I worked in the field I was in. I was an adult probation officer. For fifteen years and I really didn't have much of an appetite to write. True crime I
I became a writer gonna get away from all that was do it. My age, There's always pushed me towards true crime in that, and in fact, that's how I ended up running against your will. It was a project he brought to him wanted me to write for him road term, evil intention- My first true crime book was my second book. When I officer I worked for seven years, is a pre sentencing investigate and I did five first degree- murder, pre sentencing report and in those I only recommend to the death penalty once and that that is the subject of evil intentions, interesting and then that I ro term, then every second book restart purely true crime register. About an american family on the business in the struggle for control of the business, and
there was a homicide that occured in in the middle of the fight for control of the company, and there were suspicions cast. And that I told my agent, then I said: look I really don't want to write about murders. I don't want to do that anymore and he said ok write, something else. Let me two years later he said, listen, there's this murdering! Actually, I I'd really appreciate it. If you'd do write a book about it, for me, ok, but no more. Well, we are happy that you did this last book and true crime anyway, because it's brilliant and it's you know it's a fantastic read and it's amazing story. It's just It's a very, very interesting read and I want to thank you very much for coming on my little program and talking about your book against your will. Sorry, I was late coming in at a time zone, difference and Arizona doesn't go on daylight saving, so the hours
everyone else changes and we have a little trouble here, sometimes keeping track of what time the other part of the country is. Yeah and it's my mistake to not realizing some of this myself, because we just had our saving time adjusted, so it wreak some havoc with a couple gas. So I apologise. For that. But I want to thank you very much for appearing on the program and it has been a pleasure fascinating hour and it's it's gone by very quickly. So I want to thank you very much. Chevron for people have been listening to program. This is Ronald J Watkins, with his excellent book against her will again go to Ronald J, Watkins em. You need a services or your interest in what else is doing, and his affection series so Thank you very much again run for they have an EU common on four great programme and have yourself a good evening pleasure you to unite.
And listen to the programme. True murdered the most shocking killers in true crime, history and others that have written about them good night.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.