Blog talk, radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. Hiring used to be hard, multiple job sites. Stacks resumes, are confusing review process, but today hiring

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Men, Ziprecruiter analyzes, each one and spotlights to top candidates. So you never miss a great match. Zip recruiter is so effective that four out of five of employers, who posted Zip recruiter, get a quality candidate through this site within the first day, right now. My listeners can try Ziprecruiter for free at at this exclusive web, address webaddressziprecruiter dot com, slash murder, that zip recruiter dot com, Slash M ur Derziprecruiter, Ziprecruiter, dot com, slash murder, zip recruiter. The smartest way to hire TED Bundy John Wayne Gacy Jeffrey Dahmer. The names of notorious serial killers are usually well known. They echo in the news and in public consciousness, heard of Israel Keyes one of the most ambitious and terrifying serial killers in modern

history. The FBI considers his behavior unprecedented described by a prosecutor prosecutor as a force of pure evil keys was a predator who struck all over the United States. He buried, kill, kits cash weapons and body disposal tools in remote locations across the country. Over the course of fourteen years, keys would fly to a city rent a car and drive thousands of miles. In order to use his kids, he would break into a stranger's house abduct his victims in broad daylight and kill and dispose of them and me hours, and then he would return home to Alaska resume Type, is a quiet, reliable construction worker devoted to his only daughter, wow journalist, Maureen Callahan first heard about Israel Keyes in twenty twelve. She was captivated by how a killer of this magnitude could go undetected by law enforcement for over a decade and so began a project the consumed her for the next several years on covering

true story behind how the FBI ultimately caught Israel keys and trying understand what it means for a killer like keys to exist, a killer who left path of monstrous randomly committed. A and in his wake, many which remain unsolved to this day. American predator is the ambitious the nation of years of interviews with key figures in law enforcement and inkys life and search uncovered from classified FBI files. Alan take us on a journey into the chilling nightmarish mind of a relentless killer into the limitations of traditional law enforcement. Book tour featuring this evening is american predator. The hunt for the most meticulous serial key through the 21st century, with my special guest journalist and author Maureen Callahan, welcome to the program, and thank you very much for green in this interview more Callahan. Thank you. So much for having me.

Thank you so much for joining us on this program. This is going to be an incredible interview about a truly incredible book about a truly incredible serial killer. We distill mention in in the opening, tell us how you came to learn about this case and why it was important for you to write this book. Tell us about that decision. Well, I first came across this case is early December, two two thousand and twelve. It was an article about a serial killer, the likes of which DFB I had never seen before. I got to the second paragraph, detailed, a operon died that was so astonishing and sophisticated. Yet simple, I called Israel Keyes an analog killer in a digital age which helped him

the capture for at least fourteen years, if not longer, the mo was, as you described in your introduction, and I'm certainly happy to delve deeper into that. But the other thing that made it clear that this was a story that needed to be dug into and really ward with the admission that the FBI had. Perhaps this individual existence secret from the american public for the nine months that they had had him in custody and given that his killing three extended all over the United States, that being not in the public interest, and so that was going to be

at least one mystery to explore, but it was clear that there would be multiple mysteries to explore and, as I researched and reported year after year, I just I could never have expected the things that I discovered yeah. Certainly absolutely now you start american Predator, with a victim named Samantha Koenig, which is eighteen years old and she's working at this little Coffee Shack call the kiosk. This is February. Two thousand and twelve tell us about. The Panther Koenig, and why she's working and tell us about this kiosk in this business and what happens that night so on the evening of February, First

two thousand and twelve and eighteen year old girl named Samantha Koenig is closing up her coffee kiosk, the kiosk where she works in Anchorage AK. One of the things to know is that in anchorage these coffee kiosks are extremely common. There, like little shacks almost they bought the sides of roads. Samanthas was right next to a very well traffic road and sat in a parking lot right near a big box gym. The other thing to know is that the coal sure in Anchorage is such that the teenage girls are often working a kiosk alone. Samantha disappears that night. The next morning, she's she's, reported missing the next

morning when the next young woman comes into open, the kiosk, which has been locked, but you see that all of the cash in the register listing it's a little bit nasty in there. The math is a neat freak she is known to clean up meticulously uh. The evening before, however, her boyfriend had received text messages from semantics cone, in which she indicated that she was very upset with him. She knew exactly what he had been up to and she was taking off for a few days with some of her friends so initially ron. Workman is looking at this as a potential runaway scenario it founded by Samantha's history. He had an unstable upbringing, she

it had her own issues with substances, they didn't law enforcement didn't look at well, they made several mistakes, one of which is they never taped off that scene. They didn't treat it as a crime scene, they sort of made their assumptions and so that kiosk and its surrounding areas were contaminated. They did not get a look at the surveillance video from inside the kiosk until later that evening. So it's almost twenty four hours and once they do, they see a figure outside ordering a coffee, a man who look to be tall, a few minutes go by and suddenly he he he leaps in through the kiosks window and when I say leap and you can see the surveillance video online, he larks his body like a cheetah and he pounces in there. What can sound investigators is the

they send another eleven minutes in that kiosk before leaving so one of them and put Ticular, a very, very seasoned investigator, is thinking to himself. These two are in there for seventeen minutes. What on earth did they possibly be talking about? The next theory becomes the accomplice theory

but Samantha, is in on her disappearance with an unknown individual more money later as weeks go by and a ransom note is discovered, which contained the photo of Samantha made up hair braided eyes wide open facing the camera. A newspaper, a proof of life, photo a newspaper dated weeks after her disappearance. The investigators are again confounded all, but one of them thinks that Samantha is alive. The FBI at this point is involved and they bring in an expert and stuff that expert cannot tell, and it's not until Samantha is ATM Card, begins pinging in the lower forty eight. The FBI now have tracker on it that a man named Israel Keyes.

They rested on the side of the road in Texas and in his car they find an activity on card and her cell phone, Israel Keyes previously unknown to law enforcement in any capacity, and he is arrested and he's not talking. You talk about the rest of the world, Israel Keys and but you introduce a crucial characters in the story and that being FBI agent S F B. I Steve Pain, and you talk about the lead detective in this in Anchorage Police Department. This Monique doll you, interestingly, right about how Steve Pain gets involved with this wants to be involved with this, but, of course, the jurisdiction and the eagle bald with who's going to handle. What tell us a little bit about this dynamic

and introduce Steve Pain and this investigation and the team involved in that investigation. Yeah, so it usually is the case is handled by the Anchorage Police Department Apd because designated a missing person, Mickey Doll, that's how she'd known her her full name is Monique Doll with a detective who is brand new to homicide. She was first day and her superior thought that this would be a good case to field trainer rocky. She came from the ash you're ten years experience there, so she's a lead on this case, but in anchorage everyone knows everyone else. It's a big city that feels like a small town, the law enforcement prosecutors. Defense attorneys judges that they, they all know each other. He.

Teen of his FBI Field Office get the call from a friend of his telling him about this missing girl and he immediately wants to get involved, and the word back is no thank you. We think we know what this is. Later that afternoon I was there around fifty six. He can get the call from Nikki Doll and she tells him some things have changed. Can you come over so he gets in his car. He race is over to Apd and it's the surveillance, video. Kane is looking at it. Doll is looking at it and it's tough sell these. The investigator, who had the seventeen minute theory he's and amazingly multifaceted, multi, talented, investigator, he's US marshals, he swat he's got FBI

clearance, is work, drugs, he's he's seen and done at all and is relatively young. By the way I mean this is how talented the sky is. He's he's got eyes on the video too, and so they are all beginning to work together and there is that there is a clashing. I don't know if I would call it he goes, but it's definitely a power struggle. God all the resources of the FBI at his disposal to help with that Kate need on it for less than twenty four hours. She, the one man she feels as if her cake and she did not want the FBI big. Putting her just fell- is kind of caught in the middle he's sort of the peacemaker and always looking to mediate. He can always see both sides uh. What's interesting is the team.

And really comes together once that ATM card begins paying in the southwest. It's important to realize that, at this point, demand has been missing for five weeks. Six, we So the more time that goes by the more that they're thinking you know, Samantha is not going to have a good outcome here and what they now need to rely on. All the way up in Anchorage the coordinated, multi jurisdictional effort among law enforcement people that they do not know and who may not feel the urgency of this case because who they are being asked to chase their subject is in a white male.

All athletic middle age he is driving the most commonly rented car in the United States of America. They can't pinpoint his location is moving too far too fast, find him somehow, and if the Texas Rangers and in particular a ranger named Steve Rayburn and a corporal named Brian Henry, who take this vague information and they consolidate it and they hand Rayburn's hand walking it to everyone. He can look for this vehicle. Let's canvas particularly hotels, the air, day in which the atm card is being used seems to be more and more concentrated. One of the analysts on this case called it nesting the subjects with nesting and they put eyes on a rental vehicle. That's parked in a complex that

three hotels, so you're talking hundreds and hundreds of rooms and they look at where the cars parts one of the investigators looks up and they see a white male two stories above on a balcony looking directly down at that car and they put eyes on him and they follow this car and Henry is two cars behind this guy. As he's heading toward route, fifty nine like he's about to get away, and he he he can't. He can't pull him over. He has no reason and he's getting instead of getting

orders from Rayburn over the radio find a reason find a reason to call him over and he pulled out his radar gun and this vehicle goes to miles over the speed limit he put on his white and, to his amazement, this rental car pulled over to the side of the road and many approaches the car and he says, and where are you from and the man says? Alaska The way Henry described it his heart stops because in many years in law enforcement he had never pulled over anyone from the state of Alaska and right, then they mail. What do they find in his possession regarding that atm card? What

they find in that be a very interesting because by now the return can bond the scene and with him is an FBI field agent in our special agent, dad Gannaway. So they come on the scene. And Galloway Mediate recalled the Rayburn, sorry, you paint in Anchorage right networks and we pulled over a suspect. In your case, our and Paine said what do you have on it? What did you have to pull him over and she says not a lot now this flags for pain, because he's worried about fruit of the poison tree greatest day and search that's on warranted, no matter what they find in his possession can get thrown out and keys can walk.

Right down to where it says to him: listen, I want you to understand. You should know something in Texas, we have an exemption and if we think that there is probable cause to search someone vehicle, we can do it and pain really thinks about that hard for a moment and and then he says, I don't want you to come just I lose without searching that car and it doesn't matter to me how you do it shyly unusual for him he's a by the book die, so they searched keys his car an inside. They find immediately like just eyeballing the car danaway suspicious, because she sees folded up maps in the front seat. She sees rolled up hash with the dye packs have exploded. This guy clearly has been robbing banks he's got little girls paraphernalia in the backseat they open up the trump the trunk. Is it weird treasure trove of like who's

pornography and their c max and there's head lamps, and then they find Samantha's cell phone and it's broken apart in the batteries out. He won't say anything and Rayburn turns to Corporal Henry, because he wants him to have the honors of bringing him into custody and he says hook him up and say handcuff him and they take him into custody and in his wallet they find Samantha's ATM card with her access code scratched into the face of it and they say: do you wanna tell us what you're doing with this, and he says

telling you anything within minutes of his rest up in Anchorage, Jeff Cell and Mickey Doll are getting on a plane to fly to Texas and they get down there, and it takes a long time to fly out of anchorage to anywhere in the lower forty eight there's no such thing as a direct plate used to stop in Seattle and used a layover, so they get there and they are exhausted and they're hungry and their tired, and they are in the most high pressure interrogation, they've ever been in and Bell get into the room and the way he described it to me. He said the hairs on my back set up like on the back of my neck. They stood

he was like. It was a feeling of pure evil, and I knew that he had Samantha and I knew that she was dead and I knew that he had done this before and so there now their priorities to get keys on to a story. Any story doesn't matter but get him to admit some connection. So Mickey Gall takes the lead and she says I don't think that you're a monster. I think you had a reason for what what happened and I want to hear it from you and she comes in has. But when he's really confronted with the atm card and the cell phone, he says. Oh now, I know how I'm involved in this and that's when the investigators star, wrapping up there like ok, here comes the story, and he says that he's a contractor which they must know by now, and he had a client

you owed him money and couldn't pay, and he found ATM card and a cell phone in a baggie on his driver's seat. That must've been slipped in through a cracked window because they let you know also he smoked cigars. They search the car, and that was a long, In the short of it- and he otherwise would not know Samantha Coninck and has not heard that she disappeared and can't help them. He will not say anything else and.

Back in Alaska drawing up the wrong if federal indictment he can, which is only fraud with access to buy. That's all they've got him on that atm card right. He needs to get keys back to allow they can get a full confession and they get him back to Alaska. It takes a couple of weeks in that time by the way that extradition process there is an unexplained stopped, which I only had seen through siding with the federal government and, at one point doing the federal prosecutor in the case for a lot of things that they were hiding. Regarding this case they have. They have an on unexplained, stop in Oklahoma City, which I can circle back

you later, if you like, but sure, certainly they get keys into this room. Finally, in Alaska and Steve Pain and Jeff Bell are wargaming out. How they're, going to a full confession out of keys when they have a serious dearth of evidence, because if keys sticks to the story as outlandish as it is and as clear, call Lottie, as it is he's going to walk. They don't have anything else and. They need to figure out a way to leverage this dearth of evidence into a full confession and pain explained. His approach to me, which was there, are a fair amount of investigators who like to taking a bunch of

still come into a room with like stacks of folders and boxes and say this is everything we've got on you and in fact those is there empty, and the paper is blank and being preferred the counter intuitive touch is a minimalist and he likes to go in with really almost nothing and say. Listen, I'm not going to tell you everything that we have on you and he finds that that almost always works, so pain in dollar or wargaming this out and it's the last minute they got a call from the federal prosecutor, who's been assigned to this case and to their horror. He has another idea and if you want to talk about a clash of egos, his idea

Is that he an individual with no experience with violent crime, and he has no business in that room is going to lead the interrogation of Israel Keyes and there's no fighting this for some reason, pain and all politically felt they had to fall in line, and they had to teach this guy really fast, as best they could out of state across from a hardened criminal was clearly done this before a predator, who can no doubt mal fear, have a six cents for it and teach him how to

Go in that room with almost nothing and get this guy to tell everything, and that confession is another thing that that government had kept hidden. All these years, I was able to obtain through a source to which is to remain anonymous, and you know

those parties involved, would probably say the reason that that confession has been kept secret. All these years is because the details of what was done to Samantha are too gruesome for public consumption, to which I say those details are easily redacted. Those are actually really not feeling a part of the confession. The salient part of the confession are how this confession. With a list of it, it is a master class because not only does Eve Cain resting, troll artfully away from Kevin felt as the prosecutor ongoing at Watson right, I mean at one point: he admits practically to Israel keys that the team were covering evidence from from his residence took the wrong shed in which he had had Samantha for for four weeks. But what the person who really comes in and save that at at and at Israel Keyes is required

is none other than Mickey Doll? He says I would you want to know everything I want to talk to make it all and she comes in the next day and she really delivered a master class in how you interrogate a suspect and get him to tell you anything you need to know in order to put him away, but what also comes out of that Kerry. Cation is an astonishing admission where he says to them. I have a lot more

stories to tell and someone in that room says to him. You know it's after he also says he wants to take control back in some way. As so, many of these guys do and he said to them, there is nobody who knows me or who has ever known me. Who knows anything about

really. I am two different people basically, and someone in that room says how long have you been to different people and keys chuckled? And he said along time, fourteen years yeah, and so now they know Dave gotta get another confession and they've got to get another confession fast because they need to know exactly who they're dealing with and the FBI special agents in this case go directly to Qua Niko and they go to the top criminal profilers and they say please, listen in tell us what you think give us some guidelines, some tips, so we can leverage more information,

out of hand and they're pretty quickly told we don't know what to tell you. We have never seen one like this before you write about the FBI, suggesting that they look at the everything that is real keys and looked at in terms of fiction and non fiction, especially in true crime. What did the FBI want to determine from that, and what did they determine from looking at all that material part of it was they wanted to determine how he had created? This

singular unprecedented motis operon die, which involved buying one way plane ticket flying into major hubs, renting a car driving hundreds or thousands of miles, burying up one of unknown, kill. Kids, he stashed all over the United States. These kill kids were five gallon home depot buckets that Keith had filled with stuns ammo zip ties, cash from. Bank robberies had previously committed along with Torino, which he realized accelerated human decomposition. He would then go on the hunt and he would punch for anyone. Unlike most serial killers, you have a definite victim profile and I point as an example to

Hero TED Bundy, who went after young white women with long straight hair, parted down the middle. He will go after anyone, young old black white male female hit, overweight alone in a in a couple traveling in a pair he was a Craig, an opportunist when it came to his hands and he killed It came described him as a true ambush predator. He would jump out of nowhere lightning fast and take someone and move them to another location for two people to another location, rape, torture and kill them. I move the remains to yet another location, preferably across the state line dispose of the those remains so expertly that he left note

it's: dna behind and immediately put hundreds, if not thousands, of miles between himself and that crime scene and by the way, from the moment he boarded that first place out of Anchorage Alaska. He has now turned off his cell phone without the battery and it only using cash you have, as he called on dark, making it nearly impossible to link him to any missing person or cold case in the country. So the FBI, aside from that monumental task of identifying and locating other victims over a fourteen year span, is not longer because you are dealing with the ultimate unreliable narrator wants to see how kids had sort of cooked this up, so they executed, searches, the house he shared with his girlfriend, who is a travel nurse and keep his ten year old daughter to whom he is by all accounts, extremely devoted they fine

fix in such as dean. Coots is intensity, a novel that is told from the dueling perspectives of a serial killer and his latest victim. They find films they find, to their great surprise, books written by FBI profilers up, and they ask him about this, and he says the first time. I realized I was not. The only person like to was when I was fourteen years old and I read Mindhunter by John Douglas John Douglas I'm sure you know one of the top one

legendary criminal, criminal profilers in the bureau right. He also told them. He read dark dreams by Roy Hazelwood and equally legendary Profiler, who passed away not too long ago, but who I. Lucky enough to talk to you. While I was writing this book about key and cable with book with the revelation I mean keys, would rattle off these titled, and you know, Jeff Bell had never heard of Dar Stream, someone else on the team and never heard his dark dreams. I mean they would run out and get these books. They would watch the movie the keys watched they would

if they had assembled these little library, they have their own personal Phila by going, and what was revelatory about Hazelwood Book was that he was really the first to put to paper a taxonomy of the lusts driven serial murder and the traits that they had in common, one of which to everyone surprised, was compulsive driving. Definitely a trait key shared. I mean this guy drove, you know the mileage he put on rental cars with unbelievable and at one point in the investigation you know, Jeff Bell is trying to game out how many states do you could have traveled to on like a four day trip to Texas based on the mileage he put on his rental car alone, and he described the scene in the book he's using string at a compass and and a map of the United States

at at and some tax after each track, everything together and put his circles together. He steps back and he looked at the map and he says to himself. This is unbelievable, is realized that he's drawing circles around thirteen state yeah, so she tells them that with people with, but even though he really there is, banality and did in his way want to be recognized for its. He did borrow one fantasy that day is particularly horrifying that had been related to Hazelwood by another killer, who had been caught. Another serial murderer and involved staking out a good

thirty country road late at night. It's black hunkering down with a rifle. Waiting for a loan driver to pass by shooting out of tire waiting for that car too slow to its inevitable call and stop.

And then coming up behind and taking that driver, and he said that that was a fantasy he had just yet you got to so they are learning to their horror that a monster like you use it in part being built by them. What is the agreement that he has with this team of investigators? What does what are his demands regarding the press and his family and do they honor? Those requests tell us about this agreement. He makes several demand at the outset. He says I want the death penalty and I want to ask: I do not want to be sitting in a supermax.

For the rest of my life wall. My case gets we're gated in court, while anti death penalty lawyers or groups protest. My execution, I don't want any of that. I know. There's no jury in this country that wouldn't convict He let alone give me the death penalty, so get it. For me and cheese knows that DC is listening in. He knows the Qua Niko is listening in. He knows the Department of Justice she's listening in is very, very savvy. Despite by the way having zero, formalized mission and being raised up in the woods by off the grid or parents who hate the federal government, he knows how everything works, because if you do this for me, if you rap this case up within a year and get me that death penalty agreement I'll give you the names and locations of all my victims, he also tells them

he does not want them talking to his family. He wants them leaving his girlfriend alone. He wants his daughter completely insulated from all of it and he wants his mother and his siblings. Don't go near them. He says well, if my mother wants to talk actually talk to her, but the siblings nine of them he's got all over the country, and the FBI is seeds to this demand and it's kind of incredible, because you know they're not pushing very hard with with the siblings at all and then the third demand is. I want you to keep my name out of the press. I don't. I don't want anybody knowing about me. Is stated reason why he wanted his daughter. But the real reason was, probably you just didn't want the attention off with a lot higher. There are, things

That they do that they for all their depravity, and the extra seems like half a they know are are shameful, and he wanted to continue operating in the shadows, and you wanted to exert control and. You know the FBI tried to repeat all of this and at one point, there's a reporter in Vermont Who somehow linked Israel keys to the disappear in twenty eleven of a middle aged, suburban couple from their home in the middle of the night? In that case was Cole. From the get go. Nobody had any clue what happened these people? It wasn't

so Israel Keyes in fact two. Taking them and killing them and by the way, the the account he gave the FBI with goats for sorry, they didn't even believe it at first, ah and and his name broke in Vermont and keep found out about it because other demands he had where he wanted access to the New York Times. You wanted access to the internet. He wanted access to cigar. She like

I mean he was the most high value, Suspect Alaska had ever had in custody and they had to figure out a way to take him outside. So you could smoke it cigars, um once his name breaks is test. He says I'm not talking to you anymore and the case stalls for three months, because Keith just won't talk to them and he's basically showing them who's boss and it's quite humbling, and at that point they really have nothing else to do. But but wait. And hope that they can get him talking again. What did they find out about his family life? They want to look in

That background, he said, stay away from the siblings, but what did they find out? Despite that about his background and possibly some reason for this aberration? Well, it's interesting because of the agent who is sort of passed with that and you and you really took it on because she most probably more than anyone else, was intrigued by that showed in Golden, you know she. She told me that the minute he said stay away from my family that she later did on that. Well, that's everything! She wants to know about right there, one of the most imp

certain things that investigators were able to get. Was a court ordered psychological evaluation because she's one of the death penalty so badly? He needed to be ruled saying as fast as possible right and so that's like about happens really fast and that by the way, was another thing that I had to do the federal prosecutors office, for they kept that hidden.

Since two thousand and twelve, along with thirteen hours of interrogations with keys that they have never logged anywhere. Their existence was unknown and I was able to figure out that they existed because I had been talking to these agents for so long. So I have changed those things only last may and I felt reading the psych eval the way that Jolene Golden must exalt, which was that it was a mother lode. The great itself report that we had Israel Keyes is upbringings, two dates um, so he was born in and in Utah to Heidi and Jeff Keys. He's. Raise as one of ten. He is the second oldest in the oldest boy when, when Israel and his older sister America are either four and two or about six hundred and four hundred hiding in Jeff up

the family from Utah to a remote corner of Washington, state called Colville, and they do that because the neighbors are getting very suspicious about the welfare of the toddler children who they never see outside Heidi goes on to have seven more children they're all homework. The children never get a birth certificate. They never get a social security number, they never see a doctor. They are raised outdoors, for seven years, while just build a cabin by hands. They live in tents, the food they eat, they either grow it or they hunt it by the time Israel is tons. He knows how to shoot, to kill how to dress game, how to cook it.

They are servants off the graders, the lows and distrust. The federal government of the United States, they're, always sure From this point on to pretty much live near a border where they can get Canada quickly, they join the church. A white Supremacist church called the where Israel befriends to brother named Chevy and Shane Kehoe. How later go on in the 90s should be

along. The F b I's ten most wanted one of the key brothers later implicate the other as a co conspirator with Timothy Mcveigh and the Oklahoma City bombing, and in fact, when he is demanding the death penalty and the agents and prosecutors are trying to tell him that that is impossible to get that passed. He says, that's a lie the next day the man of the same thing, and he got it really fast and a lot of people. I grew up with by the way regarding the Phoenix AZ hero. By the time he was fourteen, he is starting, fires he's breaking and entering, and she you neighbors houses, sometimes simply just rearranging the furniture so that he can watch them return home from a little bit away and experience their fear.

But someone's been in their home, she is not just stealing guns and buying guns at fourteen. By the way he looks like a grown man he's really tall uh, actually as early as twelve. Now that I think about it, but he's learning how to build guns. At sixteen he tells his mother he wants, he wants to live by himself and he handled cabin in less than a year. Is that took seven less than a year. He handled the cabins. He has also begun to manifest the textbook signs, I'm not just a copy of the extreme psych Opathy

That indicates a future serial killer. He has taken his sister's cat out into the woods with some friends and describe tying that cat to a tree and shooting it in the stomach and watching cat running around frantically and vomit, and suffer and die a horrible death and she's watching it laughing, and he looks over at another one of the kids there and that kid is turned around and it's puking his guts out in terror and fear, and she says that's pretty much the last time. Anyone went out into the woods with me and he said he told the in the psychological evaluator the psychologist, but she was pretty sure his parents knew about

hot, but that one of the kids had told his parents and the parents had gone to Jeff and Heidi. Now I interviewed Heidi at link for this book and my knowledge. She have never spoken to reporters since she certainly had never spoken to before she told me she had no recall of that incident. The only incident she had we call of was her and just discovering a cache of guns in Israel, cabin and thinking that at that point he really needed to move back home with them, but it was far too late by then, because he's been told, investigators that by age. Fourteen and again, I'm going to say it earlier than that he had figured out that he really good.

Sitting in the woods deep in the woods alone, still four hours and watching people and having the epiphany. That not only would it be easy enough for him to take someone and no one whatever know so that he absolutely could do this and get away with it. What about his stay in the military, Is a goal of his? a good soldier and what characterized his stay in the military didn't see. Any combat. You write tell us about what others thought of him and how he interacted with those other soldiers Israel accuses stay in the military, is such a crucial part of the story, and so much of it remains unknown. What we do now Oh and what I was able to uncover indicates that there.

Is much more that we should certainly be made pretty too so we started. The beginning is, here again in individual who has no birth certificate, nor social security number walks into an recruitment office, I is on account, is an old it is allowed to and let in the United States Army yeah iraqi Army. If this was remotely possible and they said absolutely not. So that's a mystery huh, the FBI Inter you many of the man he served with, including his command, an officer I had filed for his military file, an I got askance few pages the only place

interest being the fairly recent discovery of the humans, call at joint base, Lewis Mcchord we're keys and been stations and clearly indicating that they needed to look at keys for that, but zero one. All of these soldiers and and his commanding officer described keys as outstanding as singular as super soldier. One describes him as having sorry one hundred and fifty pounds on his back four miles without flinching one describes him and making what's known as the

Jill suit, and these are the suits worn by snipers. They sort of look like bigfoot when they're done, because they are extensively designed to camouflage you in any environment but snipers in the army are issued. There's your suits and they're made by experts and how cute not only knew how to build one himself but had permission to it's, never on record that he was trained as a sniper. He also- and this is a surprise to me- not just underwent, but you really have army ranger training, that is eight grueling grueling Excrete Dating

with the army really use it to flush out, most most people can't hack it so he's now we know who's had special forces, training of some kind. I also uncovered in these previously feel documents that he had gone down the common lot, one point for for training that remains unknown. He told the. Act III. At a later point in this investigation that as a fourteen year old, he knew how to build explosives, he was building Bob. He has had hold someone. He served with that property. He owned in upstate New York. Even back then were talking nine,

the eight hundred and ninety nine. He had buried nine thousand rounds of black Talon ammunition on that property. Black talons are the outlawed, so called cop killer bullets at that point, in this case the FBI. Again, this is never been reported and they've never explained why re designate they re classify the Israel Keith case. It is now no longer serial murder and they deployed bomb squad on either side of the car three one to his house in Anchorage and one to the property in upstate New York, and they have no.

Said what they were covered in never said what today, no Israel Keyes had ever done for what he was planning to do. Let's get back to the interrogation of Israel keys, it's fascinating! You take us right into that interrogation room. You say that there's officers monitor bring. It you've got Quantico on the phone being able to wait in and then you have those people in the room, but you have. This prosecutor fell this. I wish the pain biting his nails. He gets lucky in. This gets very, very fortunate because you write because things could went a lot differently, given the strategy. Did he employed versus this strategy that the FBI and Steve Pain and others would have employed? Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah yeah

you know have installed. This is approach, and you can hear some of these tapes. There are mine, but the really needed one, the ones where you see how this interrogation could have gone sideways and and why I think it's so important here, especially for anyone who is studying for a career in law enforcement, or as a federal prosecutor or defense attorney these really there there so enlightening, because cell this is approach, is all one, that's informed by what you would see in a movie or how zero. You know where it. The interrogator comes in, for the

I cooked in vinegar and like they've, got all the control and you're just a scumbag that they're going to nail to the wall, so you may as well just tell me and mean goes in with far more humility and the way he described his approach to me was. He said I like in that very first interrogation, with a suspect as telling an author, his own story, and you know, of course it's only the author who knows how this story ends so. Sharp pain and bell are kind of being guardian angels as fell. This is sort of stumbling along and they're. Trying to also figure out in what way keys is going to be most com. Of telling this narrative- and it becomes apparent that cute is much more comfortable working backward working,

Where hi I'm lying and logistics and where he was when, rather than getting right into how he talks Samantha what he might have done with her and at one point he's a walking yourself locks you giving the details of that night and and what he did to Samantha and it it they needed these detailed crucially, because they had so little physical evidence linking keys to Samantha. And if it any point

he's recanted his confession or wanted to throw in MIKE, and I need to call the next day would be screwed, so they needed detail that they can then very quickly core clock robbery, and at that point he says I'll, give you the details, but there are too many people in this room. There needs fewer people in this room and immediately Steve Payne is thinking, ok, fine, like who would I leave in this room and We go and in his mind, he's going Jeff Jeff the best interrogator on this team. It has an ego that is strong enough to admit his strengths and weaknesses. So it would be Bell and it would be either defense attorney rich court, and that would be it with him. That would be five.

And fell. This immediately goes woah woah, woah, woah woah, wait, wait, wait, wait! Let's, let's, let's hit the pause on that. You know. I mean only you know, the details are going to tell us to so why you just start telling us and cases is real Adamant he's like there are too many people in here and, and he Game is like dying as likes. Elvis is like gripping this with like what finger kits like he's, not leaving that room. He wants to be in that room there beginning to realize this is a case that could be a star maker. You know and hey. I was thinking to himself. You know I don't care what this guy's motivations are. I don't care if you need some form of cosmet

privacy, I don't care what it is. If you really feel this is James of what he's done that he needs like for people in the room. I need those details. We need those itself and sell this. What we want- and this is why I like you- wish you can leverage back all it does I'll give you all the details you want. I want to talk to the lady detective: what's her name? What's your name again and they say make a make a dollar he said yeah. I want to talk to her, and so this is what will blow why you know and and that's the way I want it and and in those moments, I mean in Bel are realizing that keys is putting this together. He's already put it together. That sell this is no idea. What he's doing, why do hold all the cards in that room right now? It's real keys, you know, and

and so this had sorted misunderstood this dynamic from the outset. You know he thought, as the federal prosecutor who decided to run lead, run point on this interrogation, but he was the most powerful person in the room, but no Israel Keyes was the most power full person in that world. When he went to ask questions I'll fill this and when Israel didn't like those questions, he also said that that he would vied information, but not the bodies. He would give them some information, but but they would have to figure out the bodies and then he would confirm that he did kill. That body. Tell us just a little bit about that incredible conditions that he put forth. Well, that consequence came about.

Out as a result of another stumble by the team and by pelvis in particular, when they had some of the card. Still and keys was just agitating. Get me the death penalty get through the death penalty. The one thing painted all could say to him was listening one victim is not going to get you that you want it fast like you got to give us something else. After the liberation back and forth, he has okay I'll give you two bodies, your bodies in the name. Yeah, so this is three victims in one week, which really is remarkable progress and he gives them the couriers and told them incredible story. Why Bring up in Vermont on a road trip on his way to visit brothers and main stop. There dig dug up the kill kit, um and staying like a local budget, Inn

and starts walking around town that night and it's raining

it's about eight o'clock. The sticking out of parking lot looking for a guy this evening is fantasy this evening involved the guy and he is a wound, Yellow VW, about into the parking lot it's an apartment, complex. Thank you. Watches of this guy gets out of the car and put a newspaper over his head. Thank you start following him and he's getting closer and closer and closer, and if he's described it parking out his arm to grab a guy by the back and the guy breaks into a sprint to get out of the rain and IRAN, and he says that I almost got it that night. In fact, I had been five seconds slower. He would have been the one, and so now we've got to look for something else and someone else, and he shares his fantasy to a couple as he left a few hours go by in his hotel room and he goes back out and now it's about midnight and he's walking around town. If you minutes later, he finds himself staring at a house on a suburban street and

the middle class neighborhood. This is a single story, ranch House, the the contractor. He looked at it and he figured out the layout. He knows exactly what it looks like inside. He starts crawling around the backyard if even above ground pool, if you to grow, he sees no evidence of hat or small children. He has previously told the investigators. One thing I will do is mess with kids, which is there a remarkably self serving the first bill killer, can make it another one to another indicator that he's borrowing from its predecessors, both real and fictional, because that's a reference to the fictional serial killer, Dexter. You know the serial killer with a code with a moral code right yeah right. He had told them that, after his daughter was born, something in him shifted profoundly. But that statement, even if you

we're to believe it, which I do not indicated that before his daughter was born, he had gone after children, but anyway, he's he's just looking for a couple with really no other impediments to getting to them and he creeps around the house. He cuts the phone line, realizes there's no alarm system, they have no outdoor floodlights they've got conditioners that are in unit. You know a shotgun in the window, you can, you can gain access, so he does that through their garage gets in their car, find the one in drivers like

Listen and he sees that there are a lot of tools in that garage. Ok, this one is a man and a woman breaks in through the kitchen door, Charles Limb. It takes him six seconds flat to get from the kitchen to their bedroom, wake them up tight him up, restrain them, and that's it he's taking around that night. Thaksin luggage routes around for some jewelry, some prescription drugs put them in In their car and drive them to a remote abandoned house that he says he had found the day before, hey tell them to

from another clue he says, whenever amount of road trip, whenever I'm driving around, I always look for abandoned houses, especially ones with a for sale sign. I always stop at one with a for sale sign and he had gone in his house and he had seen it had been lived in for years, if not decades and it was abandoned and there was a hole in the floor of one bedroom that drop down right, the living room. There was a basement. It was off of a of a of a of a small road, it was perfect and it- and it looks like a house of horrors and he's driving them up to the house, and they are begging him. So let them go they're old, they're, sick and they have no money and if they would

just let him go, they will give him everything they've got and they will never tell a soul and he told them what he told Samantha Koenig the night he took her. That was just a kidnapping for ransom and they were going to be fine and he was bringing them to a drop house where someone else would take this over and he takes them into that house and he visits upon them and take a bow horrors. And when he

is done. He leaves their bodies. It'll Ashe died in the corner of the basement and hello, the FBI that he had been planning to more thoroughly dispose of their remains. But he was running out of time because the sun was coming up and with a small amount of traffic on the road people going to work, and he figured that it would be fine. Ultimately, because whoever bought the house, he thought would either hum tear it down or burn it, and they were doing it for the property and then they would just rebuild and that anyone who even thought about going into the basement with think that they were smelling the stench of a day, add wild animal and never take a look, and so, first of all again the agents don't believe what they're hearing, because what he's describing,

What he's done to this couple? Who were you know they were in firm and they they were, slightly, overweight and and and and the husband bill, especially with the big guy in really would have been hard to pick one of them a lot of money. Aside from two of them, hi one he's giving them yeah. This is like five hours start to finish, so they send field agents to see that house and although in the hole to the right, it's already been torn down. It's been.

Less than a year, he committed this crime in June of two thousand eleven and he's telling them about it. In March of two thousand twelve and a half is not well, and so, as he is very interested in in learning the progress of what's going on in Vermont and he wants, he is one of the things he's saying. Is I listen. I gave you all the details, I want to see the pictures of the remains, and this again is it is it? Is it? Is it yeah in an unfortunate how, until this is part, because he asks why why and- and you said

I I want to see them- I just want to see the love the way I am an Elvis realizes that he just wants to get off on seeing the decomposed remains in it. It is now clear to cues that sell that five yeah thank you, keep asking over and over and- and he asked spelled it- you know a week has gone by now and they found the body yet and sell this as they haven't, found the bodies and he was like. Are you sure they have the right house until the said yeah and he said well. That is extremely weird, because those body should be very easy to find. It wasn't that big of a house- and so this is offering all these lame excuses, left and right, but he's beginning fuses together, like they might not ever find the bodies and in fact they they. They have to help him because he's got access to the internet. Yes, what is real? It looks

right, whoever bought his land, this house, they hired a crew to excavate the basement, and so the bodies are in MILAN fell and the FBI is searching the landfill and this becomes the largest such hunts in FBI, history and it goes off for weeks and they can't find the bodies and they have to tell you they can't find the bodies, and now he's knows really that he holds all the cards. He said. I guess I spoke too soon on that one

he only gave them the careers because they had his laptop, they had his computer and they were going to find photos and news stories about the courier's disappearance and he figured they would put that on him and he may as well give them an easy one, and now he knows, there's no such thing as an easy one. Yeah he

upsets and and at some point to he, he tells them that he wasn't initially interested in fame, but now or at some point he decided that he would. He was interested in infamy. Wasn't I think so. I think that, because he was such a student, not just of the FBI, criminal profiler, but the detection killers like him in popular culture, because he was extremely interested in discussing his mro and what he considered his unique skill set one of the new victims, the way I sort of describe it in the book. I say that the water them scenario that in the history of monsters, he was a great yes and I do think he just wanted.

To avoid it on his terms and to have that recognition. Also, on his terms, he said that it was really about protecting his daughter to some degree. That was true, but he was certainly for all of his were back found without really any formal education. He was an extremely right guys, certainly understood the basic principles of Google, so he knew that that was an inevitability, but you know again he wanted it on his terms and he went so far as to you know, sort of happily tell them it's future plans, one of which was inspired by the infamous serial killer, Hh Holmes. Who is the subject of the great book devil in the white city

and uh? I'm sure all of your listeners are familiar with home, so for anyone who's, not he built a dungeon in his mansion in Chicago during the World Fair there and he advertised it at the hotel, and really it was just an elaborate lore. You are too few have victims come to him as he describes his favorite way to take them one. He said back when I was smart. I would just let them come to me and had his dungeon. He used as a as a as a as a place to hold his victims for a long time and torture them and rate them before killing them, and- and he said that that was his plan. He really wanted to see what he called his retirement plan build a big house with a dungeon where he could keep victims for much longer and another more immediate plan that he had was tool.

Steve Anchorage and begin traveling the country as an itinerant construction worker, because he told them that there was no greater cover for moving around offering his services. As all of these increasing extreme weather events, and that was uh plan that was diabolical genius quite frankly, and that coupled with really be unforced error he made when later he begins talking to them again and because I know how to build bomb uh you know was that an unforced error, or was that, like another tantalizing, clue he's using to taught them

Like you don't know, when I'm truly capable of trying to figure it out, maybe I'll help you. Maybe I won't think that she truly was laying the groundwork for for what he hoped his narrative would be. I want to say that said: I really went to great pains in this book. Your call keys what he is. A monster, a predator, a complete aberration. I explore with the help of Roy Hazelwood Psych Opathy into your earlier question, about how keys his upbringing may have formed or mouth Formed this individual are they born or are they made, but the larger point being I

there's no way. I would ever want anyone to take away from this book that any of these acts or things to be glorified for, in fact, at one point he tells the Investiga jurors vis, a relaying the details of his crimes. You know, hey, I'm not in this, for the glory. You know he realizes that the culture has this sick fascination and and hands to glorify serial killers at I. I really hope that, if anything, it's it's it's the victims who are are the sole focus of of sympathy here and and recognition, and that that he is is what the the FBI and want to go over guardians to be, which is eight eight eight to be studied.

It's a learned from you talk about how many with this investigation is incredible, investigate, can an interrogation and his confession. How many bodies did they confirm that he had killed that were confirmed and then from the entirety? The totality of this interview. Were they looking anywhere else for potential victims? Oh yes, oh my gosh. This is such great question, so the official tally for the victims of Israel, Keyes is eleven he's told them. He had killed less than twelve people now for Steve Pain. That was always a weird number see if game is a math guy and he

Figured okay, most people round up by five or ten to twelve is so I'm going to figure eleven. There are other investigators on this case, other agents who believe that number is far more and I am in that camp. He told them

I've been doing this for fourteen years. I think you started way earlier and it's it's a it's a conclusion I I reached after you have five years of research and reporting on this case. I believe there are several. There are several cold cases that I explore in the book that I or re opened cold cases. Analysts unsolved missing persons, cases two completely different things: that law enforcement has reason to believe Israel Keys is, is likely responsible for, and I gave that, based on information. The agent gave me directly about their own suspicions. I say that, based on hundreds of pages, I got from the Department of Justice case filed that involves both calls to the FBI tip line, an email from both civilians and law enforcement. All over the United.

Date saying please look at Israel keys for this. His mo fits the circumstances of the disappearance of my friends, my loved one, my husband, my son. I cross reference. Those with another classified piece of information I was able to obtain, which is the FBI secret internal time,

and it is real cute- is known travel. This is far more detailed than the time line that the F b I's throughout online in about twenty thirteen asking for the public's help in locating and identifying other victims of Israel Keaton. When I got this secret time line, which I only eighteen a last summer about a year ago or maybe last fall, this was a revelation, because this timeline included information that came directly from journal and calendars, Vicki's caps, and so they were able to put him at places where previously they they might not have been able to so in cross. Referencing. All these materials there are about four or five pieces revisited in the book that that make a strong argument for another look, and I would I would close that out by saying that you've told them yeah. He just gave them that he said I buried one but possibly to victims in Lake Crescent in Washington, and I went to Lake Crescent today visited with the F b I agents in in Washington state who works that, and it is one of the largest lakes in the United

America, until you see it, you can't comprehend how basket is at its deepest point. It's probably seven hundred seat they've never been to the bottom of it, so he said there's at least one down there and the F b I checked with their expert eight fresh water there's very little marine life. The chances of preservation are remarkably good and the agents in Washington, Eight told me. They went to the bureau and they said we want to do a recovery operation and the bureau told them no, because they did not want to spend the money yeah. Credible Maureen. You also talk about weed, spend hours and hours. Just

going over some of the incredible details that are in this book. But you talk about the May twenty third, two thousand and twelve he's in court, and he tries to run from court an incredible thing that Jeff Bell had predicted that he thought Jesus, but I think he's going to do something so he tries to run from court and he was tasered. You also talk about some of the behavior that TED Bundy exhibited as well in terms of what they find out. Is that evidence that certainly he was into necrophilia. He was interested in necrophilia as well, among the other things that were traits of other serial killers as well yeah

is it never fit. Necrophilia is never not shocking, but yeah with killers like these and and they are as right he's a would call them lots driven serial murders. It's really not that uncommon. Since the court houses state is really interesting and howling, for so many reasons, not least of which you know again, funded by the state when he was in custody in Florida when they finally got him, you see from prison and I believe he may have also had a court houses the the Cavs, if not six out mom, so the key is in federal court and she's

at the table. With his defense attorney it's surrounded by US marshals, the courthouse is packed. The press is there and Jeff Bell. Is there as his speaking and that yellow, particularly the way he's very described as me, he's watching q? What sack over his shoulder at at at at an attractive young woman and she's, a reporter bell thing and. He keeps doing that and you can't tell if keys is flirting with her or trying to intimidate or or what but belt starts moving himself over two break keys is I line so that he can no longer make eye contact with this girl and she's shoot some a list, that's like daggers

and the court again. This proceeding and suddenly Israel kids jumps up. His leg chains are unlock somehow, and he had, I mean think about what this would look like. He jumped up over his chair. His hands are still Hancock in front of him and he is leaping over benches good, going thanks, bye bench by bands, but that's like think about the athleticism and the balance I just the sheer defiance add in the courthouse, the Rock and AFL leaps up to go after it and and and the Us Marshalls Gratin, and he gave them an. He was on his back and Bell is looking at his expression, and you see that's one of ecstasy and it's again it's another moment where

and someone as either an ad bell is shocked completely floored by the monster he is dealing with and she later learned that he was able to make that accounts by. He felt pain that had been used to rap his sandwich, which she had been given

and in the courthouse he was given the standard issue sandwich and apple and milk carton with straw and in a paper bag, and so he took that piece of cellophane and he worked it up in his mouth and he somehow unlocked his leg irons and he used a flimsy piece of cellophane to keep them together until ready to make a run for it and by the way, if you try to find footage of that states attempt which made national news and there's video of it, it's

robin Thicke and out and why I have no idea, but it is decaying yet another battle for Jeff Bell who, with the investigator, who, day after day we go to the courthouse he had the best reporter with keys. He would go and say: do you want to talk to you? Wanna canal, it will take you out, you can go to the FBI's offices will have some lines. You can read the paper, but he was, he was the most diligent about eyeing keys and what you're capable of there was a day at the FBI where he.

Notice. Keys was working, his jaw suddenly and they'll forced him to open his mouth. An in there were little shards of pencil's. That keys was fashioning into weapons. They were never in a room with him, an armed without guards there. You know Jeff L would watch as with the other agent as keys, which is sort of vibe all the room like you would be looking at electrical socket. You would be looking at. What can I make something out of what can I make into a weapon to get out of here? He was found with a razor

blade uh. He just tell how to go to the head of the correctional facility and say you guys can't give this guy anything, because there was a day where Jeff Bell with Strip searching keys before leaving, which was standard procedure, and there was always an armed guard outside that room and after keys finished his after Bell finish his strip search of keys, the armed Guard had just wandered off, and so now Bell is alone in this room with this guy who, yes, she has repor with on a professional level, but he is not fooled like he knows. The keys would kill him. Just is going to talk to him and Jeff Bell is terrified, like he was very honest about it

and he had to knock on the door from the inside without even saying any fear. You get a guard to come back and unlock that door, and so you know he's he's basically saying how lax can you guys be like? Don't you understand who this is until you under and if you can make things out of anything like you, and so this was. This was an ongoing. On going battle. That was waste, but it was just yet another example of keys is extreme We saudi I mean they sound bell sound in his cell. One day like he was getting survivalist magazines in jail. Is me? Yes, I want to thank you very much right blocks a kind of cut. This short hello. Thank you very much

for this interview, American Predator, the hunt for the most meticulous serial killer of the 21st century. Just before I close their website or facebook page, we might access. Oh well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure speaking with you, you can find american predator wherever books are sold and you can find me at Maureencallahan dot net. Thank you. Very much american predator. The hunt for the most meticulous serial killer, the twenty first century. Thank you very much more mean Callahan good night. Thank you. So much.

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