On Christmas Eve 2007, Judy and Wayne Anderson’s daughter, Michele, and her boyfriend, Joseph McEnroe, arrived at their home for a family meal. Unbeknownst to them, their daughter was armed with a loaded 9 mm pistol and McEnroe was carrying a .357 Magnum. Both parents were callously shot dead by the pair and their bodies hidden from view. Two and a half hours later, Michele’s brother Scott, his wife Erica and their two children, Olivia (5) and Nathan (3), arrived at the house. Within the hour, they too had been pitilessly slain, in an act of violence that was breath-taking in its scope and cruelty. With his highly-anticipated third book, Paul Sanders takes the reader inside every day of the trial of Michele Anderson, with his customary attention to detail, from December 2015 until March 2016. And in a unique digression from his other works, Sanders includes something he has never done before: An interview with one of the killers, Joseph McEnroe, at Walla Walla Penitentiary. Banquet of Consequences is the first of two books on what came to be known as the Carnation murders. Were the killings a premeditated act, or had the defendants acted in self defense? And what of the deaths of Olivia and Nathan? Who shot them and why? It would not be an easy task for a jury to decide. “The reader is taken into a world few of us who have ever received a jury summons will ever experience.” BANQUET OF CONSEQUENCES: A Juror's Plight: The Carnation Murders Trial of Michele Anderson-Paul Sanders
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening on Christmas Eve, two thousand and seven
Judy and Wayne Anderson's daughter, Michelle and her boyfriend. Joseph Mcenroe arrived at their home for a family meal unbeknownst to them. Their daughter was armed with a loaded, nine millimeter, pistol and Mcenroe was carrying a three hundred and fifty seven magnum. Both parents were callously shot dead by the Para for bodies hidden from view two one slash two hours later: Michelle's brother, Scott, his wife Erica and their two chi, with Livia five and Nathan, three arrived at the house within Are they too have been pit tickets, listlessly slain in an act of violence that was breathtaking in its scope and cruelty with his highly anticipated third book Paul Sanders takes the reader inside every day of the trial of Michelle Anderson with his customary attention to detail from December two
thousand 15th until March two thousand and sixteen and in a unique digression from his other works Sanders, include something he has never done before in an interview with one of the key, Joseph Mcenroe at Walla, Walla penitentiary. Banquet of consequences is the first of two books. What came to be known as the carnation murders, where the killings of premeditated act or had the defendants acted in self defense and one of the deaths of Bolivian Nathan who shot them and why it would not be an easy task for a jury to decide the reader is taken into a world. Few of us who have ever received a jury summons will ever experience the book they were featuring. This evening's is banquet of consequences, a jurors polite, the carnation murders trial of Michelle Anderson with my special guest journey.
As an author, Paul Sanders welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Paul Sanders. It's an honor to be here today and thank you thank you for Much of fascinating perspective once again, thank you for taking us somewhere, where we normally don't go with this, and this is right in the jurors box, with people making decision on life and death and and the consequences did you talk about, and banquet of consequences will be talking about now. Let me ask we talked to we looted about that these. This is not the first book of the about the carnation order. So tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to be involved with this, and maybe you could tell us about who you were there on behalf of at the trial. Tell us a little bit about.
Who you are associated with an how you came to be in a position to want to and be able to write banquet of consequences, so impaired questions thank you. My story began in two thousand and fourteen I, like many jurors around the country, uh was called for jury and in this case it was a high profile, murder trial. The girl's name was Marissa in the balls. She put a hammer and her husband had five times. One thousand two hundred jurors were summoned in the end. Sixteen were chosen and then there was a final twelve. I was one of the final twelve. The trial was six months in length, three phases And in the
and we ended up giving the killer of life are recommending life in prison without parole coincidently in that trial, a prosecutor used to show up, I think, somebody's been on your show. As a matter of fact, one martinus, and especially when I had first round the stain and we recognize him is a high profile prosecuting attorney, and we all wondered why. Why is it? Why is he here? What does he have to do with this case? That's not our our prosecutors to Eric Bassett. Well, the So we found out soon Juan Martinez was actually scheduled to do our case, but another very similar killer. Your areas her trial, five
before hours, the jury hung on her trial in the penalty phase the death penalty phase. So just a few months after my trial, completed. I was working on brain damage to his tail. My first book the story of what it is like to be at that point to Europe, and I thought on a whim, I had I heard on tv there was going to be the short penalty phase retrial. This thing was scheduled to be maybe six weeks and length thing to go down there, maybe do a little Blague uh an or journal it and maybe posted online. I did that an bill response was unbelievable. It took time, but that trial also ended up six months. So I wrote my second book: why not killer door
Will the death penalty trial dirty areas, and when that book was complete, I found myself is many. Authors do do when they first starting out upon myself broke. So I I I put a message out on Facebook. I've I've gotten a lot, flowers and honored to have every single one of 'em, and I put a message on Facebook and I said: hey I'm looking to move, but it doesn't have to be in Phoenix AZ any ideas. An the suggestions came back worldwide, mostly around the country, but people have moved again. We have moved Australia, moved to Great Britain, moved in New York, NEWS, Boston and I'd a list of things that were important to me, and one of them was I We need to have an income aside for my book income, which was still growing.
I need to have a roof over my head and gosh darn it. The state needs to have a death penalty, because if I do a trial again I really only do death penalty trials old friend of mine, wrote and said why come up Here I got a job in roof over your head and you can do what you want and I ask him does: does Washington have the death penalty? He said yes and I moved to Washington. I was it was. Adjusted by a girl by the name of Jennifer. Would she had brought before I moved up here. She said you know, there's a really interesting trial that just occured on Joseph Mcenroe, but there's still to be a try. While I'm Michelle Anderson and the carnation murders and that's how it started? I typically don't have research before I sit in a trial. Every
The reason being is, I want the impact of the case presented the same as what my as what it might be to a jerk who are select are selected partly because they know nothing about the the trial there about to be seated at and I like being in that position- it says that there is that the dark side of trials which is the victim and what happened to him her or them and then the other side that I really enjoy, and that is what a jerk
must feel when they sit in a seat in, in a very formal circumstance in a high profile circumstance, and what are they feel is the information is said to him on a day to day basis, and because of I have had that unique opportunity to you sit in that seat. When I sit in the gallery, it is very easy for me to understand what they're going through and the goal is mine interpretation. When I write it uhm the support I've had for this trial. It's been amazing. I've been honored to meet top PAMELA mantle, who was the mother to Erica. Her son in law was Scott and two grandchildren were a Livian Nathan. I was honored to meet.
At four jurors from both the Mcenroe trial and the Michelle Henderson trial, add delta connection with the prosecutor. I am I I am just under We would grateful for that and and then- and I also met a had, become friends with Ben Anderson, who is the grandson to Judy the the Son of Mary Victoria and she was the daughter. That's called off the night of Christmas Eve not to join, The family she'd been there ten years in a row, but that Christmas Eve she called Judy left a message on the machine and said she would not be attending because her son had a cold. So she and her son, did not Christmas and from there you know the rest rest
the story. What happened for those people that will take us very much like, like you say, the jurors are supposed to be impartial so that they can have it research, these kinds of cases, but there are the certain particulars that you knew at the time. You say this didn't automatically interest you and you were invited in so with this fall into your lap, but tell us about the particulars of the crime, as you knew it, and the public knew it, and probably the jurors knew what what are those basic particulars that we spoke to it in the introduction of what happened on
Christmas Eve, two thousand and seven at the Anderson Home just what the public would have known and you would have known at that time very good. It was high profile in the NW, so pretty difficult to find a person in Washington who did not now at least something of the murders. But it was Christmas Eve on a damp by bear damp overcast day and Michelle Anderson and her boyfriend of two years Joseph Mcenroe arrived at her parents, residence. Which was only Aqu Rupa Mile up the driveway, because Machado Angelo live in a trailer just dance in the driveway, which was by Michelle's Father Wayne he for a year. Let them live there. Rent free
very near to Christmas Eve Wayne had said Michelle and Joe. You need to start paying. Maybe a Skype and five hundred dollars, four hundred and five hundred dollars a month, and it would be a good idea to get a job which neither one had Michelle took offense to that. And at two o'clock on Christmas Eve, they walked out in the waistband. Should a nine millimeter Joseph in the back in his back under the belt, with a shirt over it. He had a three hundred and fifty seven Magnum and he also carried an empty box with It would come to be known as a decoy box, open the door. One could smell the Christmas roast in the oven,
Christmas spice in the air as she opened the door sorry greeted her son and or her daughter, an potential son in law. She hug them Wayne called over from his easy chair. He was watching the game on on tv call over with merry Christmas and within about forty five minutes. While Joseph was wrapping her, presence with Judy in another room, Michelle pulled out her nine millimeter gun and fire. Directly at her father Wayne, see next Joe came running out with Judy Joe then fired his three hundred and fifty seven contacting with the bullet contacted complain in the head.
And I'm Wayne died immediately dropped. Then Michelle and your cornered Judy Michelle's mother in the kitchen, while Michelle was screaming, sure sure there and your shot twice the first graders for the second one when she was in the crowds position. Looking up, she faced The bullet other three hundred and fifty seven magnum. The last word she heard were from Joe, and she said I'm sorry, mom and shattered. They then move the bodies. They drag him out today, we shut outside. It was another three hours before her husband, Scott hello in Nathan came out,
Michelle and Joe waited in the living room. When door open, welcome the so the family, one could still smell the roast in the oven. Everything would now the only thing not normal or Wayne, were missing and at some point Scott inquired about it. About twenty. You're, thirty minutes after we leave that and at that point in time, may I am broke out. I were about sixteen bullets fired the first to die was Scott, he we sat in the face by Michelle, fell on the living room floor. The tension then turned to Erica who was with their two children, five and three
And in a panic she grabbed for a cordless telephone. She picked it up called nine hundred and eleven she got through's an eleven second call. The voice can it was about six one. Slash two seconds are enough: two cry too, but never really got words out. Then the founders, locked out of her hand by Joseph, and he then preceded to execute Erica. Even in a Livia there, at the living room floor o'clock, they laughed. When they left, they went down the driveway pastor single wide trailer, another half a mile. The drive was locked, the gate premises at which time two police cars showed up
At the bottom of the driveway, my last, they did not have cause to go to cross the gate because of the nine one. One call was said to have been a possible party call the person who answered the nine one. One call one could not tell exactly what the sounds were. So it's understandable. She made the mistake. Nobody could thanks, but something like this would happen about fifty two hours later after the police said last after her after you do this work, people at work were wondering where she was is she had never been late in the seventeen years. She worked there and finally lend it to you. He went directly to Judy's house the day after Christmas.
And enter the premises and then at that point sought three bodies went in your panic, into the back bedroom called nine one one from the back bedroom on phone for about an hour with nine one one. She was extricated from the building six bodies. Where were ultimately covered and those were the carnation markets. Now you talk about the discovery of the bodies and then the police response. So how do please get on the trail of these two immediately? How does that work? Tell us. But that process question then thank you. In this case it was really very easy.
The police arrive and in a lot of police helicopters share anything can count in our. Two thousand and thirty vehicles and a crime scene are the and while all that was going on, which took about three hours for the full complement of all departments to be there. Michelle and Yosef drove up in their black as ten pickup called out there, and just how just so happened to walk up to Scott Tompkins, who would become believe that active in the case and said hey what's going on Pretending, of course, they were in a sense, an Scott, not knowing anything all He knew was, I have a friend
I'm remember here. This is uh a probable death notification. It's a very difficult circumstance and I'm going to have to break the news. To Michelle. Family is just and for the next hour and a half Michelle sat in the front seat of a car with detecting Scott Tompkins, another detective detective Peters. So I had in the backseat and Michelle's hot. Question for about an hour and a half It was under the premise. It was a bad note, death notification. But what came out because of a lot one slash two hour of inconsistent inconsistent stories. Both detectors figured out that.
It look like Michelle was hiding something and suddenly Michelle broke down and said I did it and then for the next. Forty five minutes. Am it's a myriad of some untrue. Suzanne lies. She confessed and just Mcenroe did the same thing with the type of tablet bitch and his car. Just one hundred yards police too find out some who really the suspects word. The difficulty came in the fact that, since
both of them that much of their confession with lies intermingled in them. Good job was to figure out what really happened. You talk about the confession that was gained from Michelle Anderson, but in that, of course, everyone looks for, and I'm sure the audience is interested in the reasoning given behind this. The sometimes we talk about abuse or this humiliation from their parents or neglect. Tell us a little bit about the background here this of the parents and what the excuse was, what the reason was that Michelle gave for not only the argument that led to the murder, but also also talk about the disagreement, long standing disagreement. She had with her brother Scott.
Michelle was an overweight, some white out somewhat entitled girl spoiled. Oil by Judy Judy only wanted the best for her daughter, Judy Work for the post office for seventeen years. Weighing work for Boeing for over twenty years When was retired that and they were your typical Middle America parents they wanted the best for their children. They wanted the best for their with higher man and and they cared about the community. Around Judy a year prior to this- and learn that Michelle was dating Joseph
and they will be leading and Washington south main area near Burien, Tukwila area, like that and probably not the best area of all they were sing. Another part land, an Michelle, had called Judy at some point and said. I'm nervous about living here. Somebody tried to break in work kind of in a bad area and Judy being her mother said. You know what why don't you come live up here, I'll, even give you a job at the post office and we've got a residence for you, and you know why go ahead and bring Joe, and so they came up. They moved in a single wide and they live there, rent free so or curb a number of targets. Um Michelle work, part time for the post office
pretty much. Three hundred and twenty three days a week, a God given to her by her mother about a year and a half or about uh. Oh goodness, ok about six months before the murders, Michelle quit her God at the post office saying that thing on her and they were talking about her behind her back Angeli even helps with her quitting he with Michelle went into the postmasters office. And eventually they were asked to leave because This is raise an Michelle was adamant. She had been screwed by somebody well be sent with Zack nights with the same resentment building with her family
wing felt she had lived there long enough without working an increase pressure on her to say, hey, you need to get a job, be you need to pay right, you're, not just letting it. This was supposed to be a transition for you. Michelle took offense to that. She also her brother loves her very much and where the dynamic gets really weird is the fact that, when Scott her brother married Erica tension stayed with Erica, you mentally had two children with air. It's understandable and his attention would be more and Erica, then on the shelf, but Michelle was a live in this world. That values were not like her childhood age had changed and she was not accepting of it, but she work whatever help
scott- would give her like maybe working on her 80s. Meryl Iroc he he spent a lot of time replacing engine and the money. Hards. She. She then paid him to fix the car for whatever reason the car just never got running an instead of Michelle be grateful for work her brothers help. She got very angry and she built up this number in her head that he told her
Thirty thousand dollars, so her in pants on Christmas Eve wise to get hurt, thirty thousand dollars back and the way she would do that is. She would go to her father first and she blamed her father for not Kohler same sky into giving her money. She blamed wing for not supporting her cause and loving Scott more than her, so when she in jail walked in. On that Christmas Eve, the first thing she asked once the pleasantries of Christmas, we're done person she asked her father is. I need you to get my money from Scott um. Nobody knows exactly
What we said, one can imagine that Wayne had been placed for the prior year with her living, his property rent free one can imagine, he probably didn't take very well. He could not have anticipated. She would without a gun in five but in her mind, everything was about her getting rude over by everybody, and now she was gonna. Put her foot down income Heller, Highwater she's gonna get her money. In the end, when she searched the pockets of the victims,. We polled forty dollars out of Scotts Pocket, see somehow missed the pocket with three thousand dollars in it. So maybe that's a common thing.
But this whole argument was about money and her feeling she was up entitled and eight do you see? The all jealous seems like these are the once again the brightest criminals ever and with this the police. Take advantage of that and get a confession. Tell us is sold just briefly about what the police want to elicit from her and what they do get from her to be able to prosecute Joseph Mcenroe. What they wanted from Michelle is they wanted her to talk just because, if you've ever met Scott things or somebody like that active Flores or MIKE Bishop from my trial, not as much like
here where you feel like the detectives are laying all this pressure on the suspects. In fact, it was quite the opposite. The more detective Scott Tompkins light in the Shell talk, the more she would set by having her. Say whatever she says, truth or lie the evidence at the scene will never change. So what they do is They take the words from both of the defendants, and then,
limit lead wind it up to the story that the crime scene tells so what they tell the truth, and the facts at the scene said why not they don't tell the truth. Yes, this is Sherin falls internet. Is it if you not telling the truth? What are you hiding so it it? It says, balance that goes at Joseph Mcenroe, but with Michelle. You know looking at her, except for the fact that she's this horrid murderous, but you pretty well know what you're gonna get when you look at her or she talks, not a smart woman, but you put
is that why you're not online you're, pretty much can get at a good idea of what she's about doesn't take a rocket science right. That's fine says to do that. Joseph Mcnamara. On the other hand, Joseph Mascolo. As as it came out, the trial later. He I was able to change her personality picture like a chameleon blending into the scene. That's what it is good, really really good at doing. It's one when he had Michelle Tax impacted their story
before they sat down with the police. They both kind of lined up at first, but once evidence from the scene been line up to the Sauris and then the detect gets to prod further for more information to find out why this app isn't lining up. And what are you hiding? What are you concealing? Is this consciousness of guilt? The detectives aren't saying this out loud, but they're thinking it, but Joseph was tricky because on the surface Joseph looks like this kind of a weird guy kinda awesome, very Solitairy die speaks a little bit strange
You would never gas once you talk to that. It could be. That is our our murder of six. Now, when you do what daddy him, as he was in two thousand seven on one man, told the mother that L L account before our eyes in some ass, Madame LA feared, he only wore black as Michelle. Only more black black here long long, unkempt, stringy hair, didn't pay a lot of attention to this personal appearance. I did
like looking people directly in the eye, and some people have been interviewed for the book, I'm sad he he struck them as creepy, but what really makes him bright man is when he was put on trial eight years later, for these six mothers, the man responsible for putting a bullet in the victim of every victims head except for skies. Imprisons you refer. For eight years how to change his aspect. His personality and his countenance and. I cannot remember the name of the movie with Richard Gere, where they use defending this
this criminal, and you think this criminal is artistic or what have you and then you find out more and all my god. He played me he's not the person he portrayed himself to date back, but this is an opportunity to stop just for a second to talk about our sponsor for this evening, which is Ziprecruiter a friend of mine who listens to true murder. Just message me a few weeks ago to tell me about his experience with zip recruiter. He served his company about two years ago. He said, and they were doing very well now. The small company was staff he'd assembled from years of working in the field.
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with immediate results and right now my listeners can post jobs on Ziprecruiter for free, that's right, free, just go to ziprecruiter dot com, slash murder, that ziprecruiter dot com, slash murder, one more time to try it for free, go to ziprecruiter dot com, slash murder, Paul! We were just talking about what was happening with the two people involved in this, this murder, Michelle Anderson and and so talk
about the trial, Michelle Anderson, which you chronicle a day by day, basically journal of what happens at her trial. Before we talk about the fateful interview you have with the other murderer in the wall, the wall, a attention so tell us a little bit about what lines up at this trial. For Michelle Anderson tell us a little bit about some of the particulars and the dynamics that are there from the very beginning, very good. For Michelle Anderson, dial, one thousand eight hundred jury summons lamp from day one
I was there an an jury selection for high profile murder trial. Typically, I sure did not actually selected for about a month. So that is that the days of jury selection are important to me. They are important because I want to know, as in this case, how, in the. Oh, not world? Are you going to pick somebody to sit down and make decision on a persons, guilt or innocence, and yet, in in front of you are six people who were murdered, that you are going to intimately know and when I say
intimately. I am talking all the way down to the phone fragments that are presented by the corner, but one thousand five hundred people show up at that. Can Kaname court has, and now the bailiff and the court clerk have the job of somehow corralling these people yeah I'm getting them in the right spot, and so I'm and then the attorneys somehow have to take one thousand five hundred pm little it's to sixteen, and so during that process the process is it called the jurors called bloody or air. It begins with, on the first day, I've written questionnaire, which would be very light babe, but in this case it was easily over one hundred very personal questions for each juror and he asked
patient, as you are honest when you fill out the boy dear, if you are asked a question, you are not there to hide information, you're, not there to alter information. You are there to tell the truth and nothing but Hearing very selective I was I wanted to leave. As a member of the media, I was given the opportunity to actually sit in the jury box during jury selection, which was really strange to me, but that's where I was directed to, said Anne during selection. I sat there and took- and I looked at this sea of hundreds of you're sitting there. Like a college seminar like a college lecture and I watched as they filled out, each of those questions doesn't have wondered if we would be the final sixteen and the
next time we come back, they go through the. I call it attorney in Paragon, but you are randomly asked. Ask questions. Anne again, the Although it's been narrowed down, it's still hundreds and so you sit. There is a potential juror wild questions are thrown out there and that to me is fascinating not only in the information search, but in the reaction by the potential bidders it can make people very, very uncomfortable and then bend the final day and then this is series how musical chairs with in the jury box, while while the attorneys are dismissing for whatever reason and and they finally get down to sixty.
And then the trial begins and for me, but at at that point for a juror when once your selected, the one learn from everyone of these jurors at least the ones I interviewed. But it's not uncommon is that every person selected said the same thing. I thought there was no way they would select make, which is just interesting for me, because I went through that same that very same thing. So I wondered how in the world is the prosecution and the evidence? How is it going to be able to figure out how six people were killed? How are they going to put that in order, and so this trial did go for months, and much of it is tedious, and
Psalm is very interesting, but you know that the finding of the gun in the Stillaguamish river- that was a great moment in the trials and it's clearly the person who first discovered the bodies. It was a great moment. The trial victim impact statements were great moments in the trial. And then there's a lot of good tediousness, my that there a day when the jurors can feel something's about to happen? They see the running around in the courtroom and and they see their Bayless in the jury, room and and he's letting them now they're about to go on this. There are going to go in a different room in the courthouse and the jury doesn't know what they're going to say, and for me, when I sit in the gallery and taking nodes, I have great empathy for the poor adjure.
Because I know what they're about to see a doctor and everything. When your everyday is surprises every day, whether they are planned or not, playing being a juror is in impossible. Emotionally physically can I these taxes? So these jurors find out they're going somewhere and and so they're gonna go that morning and then the dead says no we're going to move that to the afternoon, so the jury's still waiting Laden were doing and then finally they come back after lunch and the court takes them down to the first. From the ninth floor. First floor in the building and they are led into this back room on the first floor down this hallway and the season police tapes and they see is this is storage room they see chair sad and where they go. What are they doing, but they are doing what Jersey
do? They are lands to the law they follow available, for they need to go and she leaves them into this big room, and there are, at this point over fifteen years or fifteen stairs lined up hi. In a series of four rows and the jurors are sad and then the judges there they are sworn in and then the prosecutor, scattered several steps forward and in front of them is the exact replication, forensic replication of the murder scene, where all six victims were killed.
Everything from the blood blood spatter on the floor to the blood spatter on the walls to the bullet hole in the tv to the actual furniture, the love seat where Eric and the children died. Everything set up, as if it were Christmas Eve. The only thing you're missing is this: now of the roast in the. And the jury is, is Dan via doctor, her up the medical, examiner and Scott O'Toole through their interchange. The jury is Ben Watt through virtually every blood saying and every bo butt hole, they see and they are given a description of that living room as forensic Lee interpreted and at some point the defense, as there are very few
questions and then Scott says to the judge. Would there be any objection if the jurors actually could walk through this recreated see and and the judge and doctor her help there should be no harm in that. And so the jurors are given an opportunity to walk in this living room and it's not a big living in save fifteen by fifteen. But you see that the perpendicular couches the coffee table with Judy and laid the trees for that Christmas Eve. That's easy with a bullet hole but drapes with Scotts blood impact all. You know six feet down the grades. You see that the afghan rack, where one of the bullets had gone through and the jurors
are getting that opportunity to watch and only three or four those on the fifteen actually walks on that floor and looked at the same, and it's not that they're going to discover something something that hasn't been learned. But the court wanted to give them the opportunity to feel The impact of this of this translate so the end of the trial Who's interviewing jurors. For a interview. Three did not take the opportunity to walk through that living room? Can I ask why why why not you had the opportunity to look? No, and the response I got was it's hollowed ground. I did
feel I should be there, and then there was the girl who, who did that I interviewed he did walk through and she said now. I think it was important to feel the impact of what they did to see what they did. This would be important in deliberations and and it was, but that was the climax of the trial was- was the scene recreated exactly as it had been incarnation on Christmas Eve, two thousand and seven
You also talk about having the jurors feel some impact, but also what we chronicle in the book is that there's a big screen and their heirs flashed things like the autopsy photo of all the people murdered, including a five year old and a three year old. It's not correct, yes, that part just sitting in the gallery it. It brings emotion and t here's your eyes and your incredulous Ann and you have anger, but when you're a juror you have, all of that, but you also have ownership and responsibility And when you elevate that thought process to that level, each picture not only because
part of your memory, the rest of your life as it was with these girls. They impact to the points where long after the trial managers do suffer from post, traumatic, stress syndrome, sure because it is one thing hearing about somebody being shot in the face it another to see that person? I don't know how types it table and another when you're you're working at at blood, spatter evidence and an this whole case, both files, the not to put Wayne to the sky or Erica on a lesser plane. But
once you have children a five year old that for you all, you have the. On the pale and you have jurors who have children exactly the same age is the better and those jurors were pets be cause they had children. The same age is the best and that is something that would never leave hers. But when you have that ownership and responsibility a job to do in that drill box, it is a hard heart. It is one of the most difficult pass. A person could ever be given in their life. You chronicle in your book something that I've never seen before. Somebody
This disruptive force in the trial and the judge I thought, was very, very diplomatic and very patient, and this and that claim to be a pro se attorney so to explain what she explained as well: the definition of pro se attorney. What was she doing there on behalf of the defendant and just tell us we'll just a little bit about what she was trying to do and and what kind of like I already mentioned, is destructive force. Tell us a little bit about this pro se attorney at trial. Well, the first thing Dan is, but there is no such thing as pro se attorney Gopro. You are represented pro representation session. Let yourself in lieu of an attorney.
About one is has been offered to you this I call her miss redacted in the book. And I remember I had a conversation with with SARA Jean from the Seattle Times, who's in the car quite often we shared notes and information so lot, and she said why are you writing about about this miss redacted? She, if you give attention, and then more people will be out there like that and that's what she wants and what was important, and this girl, Miss redacted was, as you saw in the book and as potential leaders let's see at random moments throughout the trial, the G Hodge is supervising the caves. The attorneys are doing what they need to do,
and the most important thing that goes on. You have to remember this was the most expensive trial in Washington, state history and we're talking in between Joseph them and Michelle in the tens of millions of dollars. This is not going to be taken like, and that is that it's not only the case itself. Remember, one thousand five hundred jurors were summon with six. Being chosen to be in the jury box record is going to do everything it can to preformation slow to the jerk. Now you have an x factor in the ass factory is a person who just starts talking out loud to the judge during the file
The gallery is not an audience or the gallery is an audience, but it's not meant to interplay with the court at all in any way, and this girl caps same thing in confronting the judge and she would say: well, I'm a pro se attorney in an I have to commend both the defense and prosecuting attorneys for not reacting out loud or taking this personal and Judge Ramsdell did handle her well, he had to protect the trial and the juror in my concern and we lost a juror in this file and I can comfortably say: had it not been for Miss with active, the court would not have lost jurors sixteen because in her
vocal exclamations. She mentioned something about about the maximum file. These jurors, not only where they really not to know about it. They could know the murders happen, but could not? no really about the murders, that's why they were selected. And then you have this random person in the gallery in this redacted who gives them information about Joseph Mcenroe and everything about those magma was supposed to be excluded from this crap. If you can believe that it is it's hard to do, but that's like this whole thing became two books, but this would acted is also a symbol for People like her that do this in high profile trials all over the country. It is not that this person was all vocal in the gallery is the first time this ever happen,
well, when I was at Joey areas, it was a factor We had to deal with. When I was a juror myself. It was a factor we had to deal with and maybe not to the degree that this person was in the bed, but thing that was important in the bar and I kept the motion to bay. But the thing that is very frustrating for a judge. Yes, it would be much easier to chicken person out and call it a day and Judge Ramsey very balanced letter have Herpes, but people like this are dangerous for prize there, just dangerous and the days my belief. That if you are in the gallery. And you are allowed to watch the trial, we have ports that are open to the public,
You are not you say everything you already sing and now not heard so there was frustration not only from, so the irritation from the attorneys they did a great job, keep by the family. And and the family is in the gallery, the family of the victims and the fact that they have to steer this. This brothers is really an insult to them to the bedrooms into the process of justice. Now in talking to surging Undo Seattle Times, still never put that in newspaper. I ended
Saying that but I'll write her books, I think all that passage so before our important all facets. So, although her actions did not cause a mistrial, they came down close. You talk about Michelle Anderson, exercising her right to testify, but notifying her lawyers at the very last minute and them advising against it. Explain what This black of timing did for her an what the judges response was an what ultimately, even though she had the right what happened with this idea to testify on her own behalf, it was as a dependent. You have a way to test absolutely, but.
As for those who, who watch trials or or in the business, and so this is regular thing often times in the guilt phase, it is not by the bowling and popping not seen that the defendant will get up on the stand and then also dishes. Now, if it were yeah that were on the table, it's a different story, because then the death penalty, phase of the prior you're not deciding guilt you deciding on more those untouchable things. So it's important that you see
feel the genuineness, public dependent and hopefully ramores. All of that information for the jury made Mediagate them to the point where they don't give the dependent that so there came a day it had. Michelle Anderson had made it clear with first of all, if I may back up, then the trial actually started. Two weeks late ab, ties. Her defense attorneys said you can't do it yeah. They fill out emotion and everything and asked to could be a listed of the responsibility of defending Michelle because she would, communicate with them who manufactured in that community do with her attorney is an older seven years, as the most in stated, so
all of the trial was supposed to start the most money at the way the judge said now you're in and we got to have the and that's that so then you had this. They had a very difficult task in front of them, trying to defend a defendant who wouldn't tell them anything who with vented that who this word times given to her by our tax dollars. She didn't have to pay a dime for these. We give her these attorneys, but she wouldn't communicate with them. So there we place even the opening statement. The defense didn't give an opening statement then, and the work what she would need. So it comes toward the very end of the trial before the jury sent back for deliberations and all of a sudden. They shall forward slash
that this is not fair. She wants new attorneys. And she wants to get understand all my goodness, and that day everything went up side down and pray, and you could see the judges were up in his forehead. The prosecution, however, took it cool as a cucumber, because when he made his presentation to the judge after Michelle said, I wanted testified, wells, judge, Ramsell, didn't see a comet defense, attorneys didn't see it coming salvage. Iger explains to it. If you do This is, I don't recommend it at this point at this point in time, but it is, of course you acid, but when Scott O'Toole presented his
case, you said- I want to make it clear that get the questioning of the witness will be unfailing, intense and without reports and by the time lunch rolled around and after lunch, Michelle. Who I believe was friends or an acquaintance of mess with that spat out some wines that were identical, the things miss with acted instead, record about her constitutional rights to being violated and and I'm going gonna, I'm Find my own attorneys, ok, I I won't testify decided not to testify, but for a moment there we thought she would get on the stand and if she had done that,
would have been legally. It just really would have been sort of side. We haven't spoken about. Basically, when you talked about the kind of the contradictory statements they both made and the police having to sort through those in the course the courts have in the line, then that that those statements up against the forensic evidence, so they have to sort through all that. What exactly was her position in terms of culpability in this? What did she downplay her responsibility? What exactly did she say in response that was contradictory to forensic evidence and still something that she maintained throughout? She was very, very, very protective,
a Joseph Mcenroe beginning with her confession on December twenty six she was, she took responsibility. It took her an hour an hour to actually get there in the interview, but she took responsibility. Google eyes were a lot of them, were rooted in. While Joseph only did what I told him to do, a Joseph would have done this if it weren't for me, that's true, but um Joseph then took the opportunity two really try and convince everybody
that it was all Michelle she made me do it. I was the victim and he really was like that or rip up. This is eight years after the fact, but he really portrayed himself like that. The she made me do it all. I wouldn't have done it if it weren't for her. That's not it's just not true Anne Anne I'll. Tell you this then once once you get the visual who Michelle is one of the first thing to realize. Is she isn't very smart? Not in fact you could say, comfort, Ubly, she's, dumb and the thing the bothered me and Bob there's the jurors, because they look at her ass,
a jury, you look at the bandit and the thing that bothered them was not only how she could do it. But realistically, if, if you decide- and I want to murder somebody and you go to execute that plan, to kill one person, how many things can go long to prevent you from doing that? There's a million things. So how in the world did this very stupid girl Michelle Anderson
somehow without getting one scratch on her one defensible offensive wound on her. How is she able to execute sixty people in two different time periods with an two of the people being three hundred pound men? How did she pull it up and it sure was an oh sudam Shadowshot him, though it much more than that it was planning those execution if Michelle and Joe had not met each other. I do not think the murders ever would have happen. But in chow was did mentally, incapable. How's are manifesting, applying like this and having it work out like that YO,
on the other hand, as he said in his trial, as Scott O'Toole eloquently pointed out, and had him trapped in the corner when he caught a. When Wayne and Judy were killed and they were lying on the floor, in the dining room at the dining room table on the floor in Acropole to you, Judy, tucked in the corner by the refrigerator dad blood Michelle fell apart. Oh my god! Oh my god. I don't know what there. Oh, my God and Scott, ask Joe.
So Scott O'Toole, somebody was in charge who was in charge and it came out Joe was in charge. It was his idea to move the bodies and where to move it was his idea how to clean up the scene, not to hide it from the cops, but the hide it from the four unsuspected victims that were going to be there in two hours it was gel who came up with the idea of burning, but the drugs and sheets out in the fire pit in front of their trailer Joe who came up with the idea of wincing everything in the bathtub, so they could make the house look all normal again
so that once got Erica Nathan Livia got there, they would notice anything going at and it was Joe who made the decision to leave the oven. I so that the Visitors would smell the road, Cindy Allen, thereby thinking everything, was normal and it was gel after the murders after the police. Maybe initial visit at five hundred and thirty in the evening on Christmas Eve when Michelle and Joe came back and they search the bodies and hit more evidence and manipulated things. I found the phone battery, but it was Joes. Idea before they left wing his house for good. It was Joe's idea to turn the oven, so what you saw
not necessarily really fire. You talk about well get it's over used, but this was there any remorse, but you talk about the matter of fact recitation of the events that happened with when she takes in this in this come in this confession, but also that there's no tears. So when you talk about Joe took charge, I can certainly say that he did take charge, but it doesn't seem like she was so upset after killing her parents, like you say they both planned in late, and we wait for those other people to come over, didn't it seems they did. I would it took about an after the initial murders it took about
hour hour and fifteen minutes to get it cleaned up enough, so that Skype would not his suspicion would be raised when he got in the house. So my feeling is, they were both sitting on the couch for a half hour. Forty five minutes waiting for the next four to show up hello, you say the public's response and media response tell us how big this story was with the media But what was the community response like? What was what I mean? What was it turn? It had some really good question. As one can imagine this was. This was really painful for for everyone who
heard about it. Not only these senselessness of it not only the two children and not only that the reasoning behind it. It impacted home, for example, yeah before I started. Hosting on the grid yeah, I would attend the trial daily and we get along on page four and the various true crime website side I use. I I hosted basically a daily diary of what happened file before I get down at somebody master
Maybe instead yeah all I'm I'm really nervous about it. You're doing this, I'm even afraid to really even read about it. This you have to understand how emotional this is, and she said I'll give you an example. One of the people that I am good friends with is the kindergarten teacher to Olivia, and she can't bear to look at them involved in this uh. Then Anderson, married Victoria's sign was he lost his grandparents and Dan, the rest of his family. All in one. Els Route, it was only a teenager when this happened. So how does he rectified this? The best of his life? Then you have to hand one Mansell who who spoke with Erica her daughter every day who was there at the birth of the children who lived there when we
when Olivia was, was excited about her first day of school Pamela mantle had bought her bat Christmas, a pink bicycle, something a Livia out. This trade folder in a Livia never got to ride the bike um. So this give me just the slightest paintbrush of a slope of of the emotion involved to the people who were caught. Ripple effect of these murders? So since the murders, but Memorial got bills at the Carnation Carnation Post Office, Kimberly Moody is still there to this day. Kimberly movies still works in the same spot. Judy was in and she still thinks of their everyday. When,
he goes out and back and sits on the park bench. The same park bench that Judy sat on every day there in the break a little memorial sign up there for two years. She thinks about Juliet today, there's a little memorial garden right outside the post office. That is meant just for Julie. There's the memorial that was built in seaside or overlooking the ocean favorite place that Scott Eric and the children used to love to go to during the summer, but he's been more memorial, built at the glass dining elemental where Olivia went to school,
and they got together and build a memorial outside and then, ultimately, I'm working on a permanent memorial for our nation. But this impacted our wide in the in the northwest and and the biggest thing it is really the senselessness of it and then, when you had children in into the victims, that's it it. It rip! Peoples! Hearts out! You talk about the three days it took to deliberate. This it was again, a long trial, as you say, and very, very expensive, and try
every witness of the frantic and all the s, forensic experts. Why witnesses everybody involved with this very meticulous? They had a defense but, like you say, not much to go on with the defendants, not cooperating whatsoever and then is completely guilty and has already signed a confession. So tell us about the sentencing and then what you do around that sentencing time in terms of regarding Joseph Mcenroe with this case, what are,
with all cases, what fascinates me is, regardless of how long a jury sits in the jury, room and deliver aids. What is that thing that tips him over the edge? It's more elusive to find that thing when death is on the table, but in the guilt phase. What is that thing that? But the jury can squeeze the trigger at? In this case it was. It was as if Erica spoke from the great because it was her nine one one call, and it was them listening. Do it over and over and over again that was what was important about that. What was extremely important about that was no
with a juror who said, somebody had asked way back in jury selection, they had said to the uh. They were talking about premeditation, one of the jurors that all premeditation takes five minutes. What premeditation This is not determined in five minutes and what the jury had to grapple. Where was is each squeeze of the trigger premeditation yeah? What This would argue it is pretty medication, but the jury strives for something a little more than just that they have to know individually that the decision they make is something that only the family has to live with. They have to live with, and in this case, It came down to that eleven second phone call and what was important about the eleven second phone call was
back that in that eleven seconds Joe said Mcenroe and Michelle Anderson had the opportunity to stop, do not make the next decisions that they make. It was right there and they didn't. They chose to go in the other side and that that's what the jury and it had the deal with, so they made their decision and in it, even though there's comfort inn in a jury coat collectively reaching a decision at the end of the day. It is a mere pittance of
Band aid, four call four of six murders: in other words, they have done their dad, but they feel like it, but someone inadequate, because it will not bring six people back, but there is some showers in being able to collectively make that decision, but it it is minor compared to what the face of the of the situation. So the day is of sense and cons. You have the verdicts and then there's usually anywhere between you know. One thing on the labor on verdict form on sentencing, and so the jury, even though they are released from their admonishment after after making their verdict. Jurors typically will not come out and talk until until after sentencing.
And it's always interesting to see how many comebacks for sentencing- and in this case I am pretty comfortable in and it was nine jurors, came back from both the MAC, the roadside help and be the selling process, and they came back to sit in the front row for the record sensing that the fruit of their labor more important. Are you today juror? when they see something it's something for the family, although little it's something, but there is still, even though, in this case it was obvious on the on the surface, the six victims and how they were killed and who did it and who preach, but they did it. There was still that anticipation of the law actually work or.
Somehow is the set thing going to be less than what and they got the whole shebang. They got the banquet of consequences and was really interesting that I really never took note of before was that before what, once the judge permitted on the fence, things set send a life without parole, there's a process that starts, and it's not just that dependent is fingerprinted. The defendant is handed's series of documents, society and wanna, and these are things that we as time in law abiding citizens take for granted, but one of them is the right to vote. So it
it's. There is some comfort to the families of the jurors to watch as the cellular SAM sign your way to her by the boat ever again as she signed a waiver of rights, the apple on a firearm at J as she's. Find a way her rights were life and it was something, but some of us would feel now. I don't know because it was never put on the table. The death penalty was not put on the table for her. For two reasons. Washington says the governor is put him out moratorium on any executions and two on the penalty phase of the death penalty, trial of Joseph Mcenroe, the jury hot, so the state had to make a.
Big decision. Do we go after that? Will we may end up with a hung jury he, when we may never actually execute Joseph Mcenroe or do we just have the jury deal with the justice and that's what happened. So after the trial, um method, surely baby have to do that and fight. I was looking for the conclusion. The bank, with the consequences that were the six people, died two murders that side. That was one What does a mountain rd and happened while I was at the agility areas, trial there's no way I could see that live. So I thought you know what I'll be I'll be like Truman, Capote Forty and what I'll do is. I will go meet the killer. And, although right now, I approach some levity and comfort. It wasn't back. It was not that comfort
When I went out to see him, I thought I was falling off my rocker or something why in the world would I want to do? Why would I want a list of starting a family I going insane and it would upset the family because you're giving attention to his name where the names that should be remembered affect ups, not him, but I thought I'd had questions and by my bang as you and I had discussed earlier, was that we sell at the end of the day convicted life without parole or not. It was really hard to see how She was able to do all of that, so I thought will go. There's a mcenroe will sure he has to say people say the adverb ours. Let's see, if he's got it, and then there, though there staying for the book, will call it a day. So I went out- and I was there with them for seven hours. My daughter
Three months at so we get the interview and then you go background checks and prison no, the rules hurt really crazy, but I found myself finally in front of him hands on the table: no, no pad no pad no recording devices, no cell phones. Talk about for seven hours. Well, what I want to talk about is what happened, and how could you do that really is. How can you do that? I wanted to see how inside inside his head in thinking, He showed Ramar's choir, Deborah Bars. What those part and parcel with the Mars is trip if you remorseful your triple how that works. So I thought this is what. What a did the interview, and then
and then I left, Walla Walla, prison and drove through the gorge ended up inside saw the memorial cried. My heart out went back home Goodbye and one thing I do before I finish books there. When I finish thoughts before I don't just put it out there. What what I want or what is extremely important. May is that the jurors I've interviewed breed the book ahead of time. The family, most importantly, needs to read the book when it's a paper manuscript before it goes out. I just at the time when man talks about the bar. I'm honored, give it to the jurors from both rise. The jurors from Michelle Anderson trials have wow great book loved it loved that end with Sosa Mcenroe, but the jury foreman from Joseph back around.
She wrote me long letter and she said even though we are family and we are- and I know what you intend is when you wrote this to send you along and then Scott Scott O'Toole. I had sent him a copy because he helped me on various things: questions rather file. I sent it after him. I got the pass through there's a problem with this house in the public. So do you know what I love the books? You said, but you are wrong. Ann from that can the neighbor, which I'm looking at
this winter I'll, be on hotel, Roger the Joseph Mcenroe death penalty trial and be cause of the honesty of the form and because of the honesty of Scott O'Toole. Once I dug deeper into the rest of the story specifically and those are mackerel, it's it's it's frightening is absolutely frightening, but uh I'm glad I interviewed him uh
and I'm glad I took the advice of the the people involved in the search for justice. Overall, I guess we won't give too much away, because this is leading up to your next book about his death penalty sentence. So for me it is definitely trial. Just american role. You say that again, I guess we'll just have to wait for the.
Book in another interview. But do you see that seven and a half hours? What did you employ? How did you get through to him to get to that? Despite all this contradictory information and people blaming each other? What was that one thing or how was it that moment where you broke through and thought you know what I'm getting the the real truth from this psychopathic killer. Ok, disappoint me interview. I said Joseph, I I need to ask him he he wouldn't talk about the children. He talked about the killing of beauty and the killing of Scott
and killing of Wayne, but when it came to the children, Was he was not only a vasive, he would completely shut down, and so when I felt bad in their view that we were getting into an area where he wouldn't talk. Whatever came of the top of my mind, I would re route and then try and come back at that night. But will deal with this more in the new book, but there was a point in time. I said Joe. I gotta I gotta, ask you, it is Mary Victoria had showed up I'm Christmas Eve where
who six year old son, which would be presumably after you had killed Wayne and Judy and probably before Scott Erica Nathan Olivia. Would you have killed them as well and see you the one of the only times he ever stopped and looked me direct in the high and he said never never.
Now, what's incongruous about that, Dan is Olivia in Nathan, five and three years old, he put a three hundred and fifty seven into their forehead in fires. So why makes Mary Victoria and that's the question? I want you to ponder, because what what that doesn't make sense to me at all now the other thing about that interview is, I I used to call it. A kaleidoscope of
earnings when in fact it was a point cone of lies, so my job is writer denial prosecutor matter, defense attorney is is too, is to ferret and and pull that information out and and making decisions from that. That's a question why why I would marry Victoria be different you'd, be five year old, not clear all, and I think once
you got the heart of that uh, it's a pregnant proposition. Absolutely I want to thank you Paul for coming on and talking about banquet of consequences that jurors plight, the carnation murders trial of Michelle Anderson you mentioned just a minute ago about the book. That's a follow up to that. So maybe you can mention that in any way that people might be able to contact you. If you have a website, Facebook tell us a little bit about how they might take a look at other Work or be able to contact you about this, or anything else, tell us a little bit about that. I have so much appreciate that day and I really appreciated the opportunity, beyond your cell with doing listeners. Thank you all for listening You'd find me on Facebook is Paul Sanders um, and I have a website called the 13th seen juror.
Eight hundred and thirteen is numbers, the thirteen Joran, the dot com, twitter, thirteen juror MD, and and then Amazon is where I'm located. You can go on our Amazon, author, Amazon, author Paul Sanders. You will see my author central page Which is got all my books, which is brain damage to his tail? Why not killer aduriz perspective as well as banquet of consequences, which I'm honored to say? It's been a bestseller, the LA
two weeks, and then the new book expected out this Christmas is called beyond the pale road juror that death penalty trial of Joseph Mcenroe, but I'm not there. I'm available Facebook, my website, whether reach out love to meet new people great again. Thank you very much banquet of consequences. Thank you very much. Paul Sanders hope to talk to you again soon. You have a great evening and goodnight. Thank you, sir, and now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah, the would be the cheetah. And learn your animal isn't the cheetah, but the far. Appealing blobfish
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-19.