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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening Dayton, Lee Roy Rogers was known in Portland or as respected businessman and devoted husband and father, but at night he abducted women.

Right. It's Jamie Progress is employee of the month. Two months in a row leave a message at the high Jamie hits me Jamie. I just had a new idea for our song, what the name your price tool. So when it's like tell us what you want to pay here here here in the trombone, goes blah blah blah and you say, will help you find curvature options to fit your budget. Then we just all do finger. Snaps will acquire, goes statements coming at savers, common app job. Yes, no, maybe anyway, see your practice. Tonight I got new lyrics for the rap break, progressive casualty, insurance company and affiliates pricing coverage limited by state law, force them into sadistic bondage games. I'm thrilled in their pain, terror, and mutilation, his mom history was stopped only after in Plainview he slashed to death, his final victim, and we, Hunter accidentally stumbled onto the burial grounds of seven other women. Rogers said Killed one by one in the depths of the Molalla Forest police realized that they were dealing with a serial killer whose bloodlust knew no bounds. This

the shocking true story of the horrifying crimes capture. And conviction Dayton, Leroy, Rogers or. Begins mild, mannered businessman by day vicious serial killer by night, the book that we're profiling, the seed is bloodlust portrait of a serial sex killer. With my a special guest journalist and author Gary C King welcome back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview Kerry, seeking thanks Dan, it's good to be back. I like so a lot. Well, it's great to have you back so that works out good for everyone, including our esteemed audience, so as we spoke before just before the program here. This is a book that came out twenty years ago. So tell us now this true crime classic bloodlust.

Exactly without giving anything really too much away how it came to be that you wrote this book blood less. Was it your idea, the publishers idea? How did you come to this? How did it come to your attention to this week, what about how you, Came to write bloodlust well at that time in my writing career, I was still writing for the detective magazines. An I wanted very much to Bray. Scout from that and explore books. This was my first book and, while therefore it was my choice to write about this particular case. There were a lot of women at the time going missing and- and you know there is a true mystery going on with what was happening to Portland's prostitutes. They were just disappearing. And I thought well. This looks like a really good possibility because it sure seems like there's a serial killer at work here

and so I followed by this- followed the story for for a long time and as time went on. The case of course became more and more interesting as the cops in fact, you know determined that there was a serial killer and they began developing the case, but it turned out that it was. It was my idea was my choice too, to write about it, and I have lots of cooperation from from the cops in this case which we can get into, and I can tell you about if you're interested absolutely but that's how it got started and then came the famous one hundred and sixty page proposal, I never had written a book proposal before in the book proposal after the book, but yeah, and

Michael Hamilton. It then at that time a penguin books decide that she wanted it for their new american library imprint, and so she snapped it up my work with her for the next six months or so and developing the rest of it into a buck Then she went on to Kensington Press and and that's more on the story yeah yeah. She is she actually been over there for years now. You know I'm very happy there with her true crime division. Absolutely no. Tell us a little bit about I think this is very fascinating to to put it in perspective very much like Canada. The US is. Even more known for its c, seems to be one of the coast even more

Evidence of serial killers in on the West Coast for some reason and Oregon and that area Portland Washington anyway tell us a little bit about the history of some of the famous than, not so famous serial killers from this area tell about Bruto sent up to the Green River killer which I thought was very interesting yeah. We know that the Pacific Northwest ticket is the Seattle area was stomping grounds of TED Bundy, and I went on for a long time. There was Jerome Brudos. He you operated out of Oregon and was not as.

Is bigger, well known as some of the other serial killers, but just as vicious and savage as they were. He liked you know, collect trophies like breasts and feet and things like that, but he he was fairly big in the news when these things were come. Hang out, but but then we've got. You know. People like Wesley Allen, Dodd came from that area. He was headline news for ages, you know child killer data file and then the I5 Killer, Randall, Woodfield, probably less well known, but nonetheless an interesting, interesting character. From from that area, then. Then the mystery of the Green River killer? You know that went on for God how many decades it seemed like before where they found Gary Ridgway. But I found interesting in your book is that, obviously, if people had bought the book twenty,

years ago they would have. The Green river killer was not identified at that time. That's true. Yeah, I I allude to him a few times in the opening passages, because he was still out there operating at the time, and there were times when people thought that that Rogers may have been somehow linked to that case. But of course, history turned out not to be the situation. Now, in in the subject of this story of the location of the story is Portland Oregon and we have to say that you need to again very vivid portrayal of this area and the people that inhabited is eight Second avenue and get the rationale why these people would operate not downtown, but more. In this area, and then you introduce the character Tracy Baxter, tell us about a poorly. Oregon at that time. In the

in the late 80s and this area specifically and take us back and paint a portrait of this very different slice of life at that time. Well, As you know, in any major city there there's always going to be pockets of prostitution in particular area. And in Portland, for instance, Northeast Union Avenue was well known for prostitution and In fact, it was so well known that the residents there often referred to it as prostitute row, but it was is the only area. You know there were parts of Se Union Ave

You know going all the way out to the Milwaukee Oregon area and, of course, 82Nd Ave, perhaps because of its proximity to the airport. I don't know for sure, but it seems reasonable because its busy Blvd, you know plenty of opportunity for hookers and Johns to do their work, make their But but those with those are the main areas at that time. I've been away from there quite quite awhile, so I don't know what's going on with the right now, but but eighty Second avenue southeast. Eighty second avenue was probably distance popular for prostitution and John Activity, as well as North EAST, Now you introduce this very cruise, character in the story and the amazing access you have to this story- is is really the gift of this book, because the explains how on earth.

This could this could actually happen because I, without This information, it's you, have a lot more questions than answers in this, Is really takes you to the heart of the matter now you introduce this. C Baxter. Barely sixteen young petites good, looking in fit With a boyfriend that you know is her pimp slash boyfriend, introduce Tracy, Baxter and and her pimp boyfriend and sort of the rationale for what she's doing at this time. In her life- and your question is well just just tell us about the what she was doing at this at this age. Doing this I mean, obviously, you explain how the boyfriend explains that. Need some money, honey and so, but that's how you introduce the character,

a police attacks typical typical teenager. You know skipping You are not going to school or whatever the case may be. The the situation was simply that you know she needed money. This was quick way for her to turn it a lot of other girls got in the same situation is as Tracy, which is not her real name but the youth fall age of the girls would seem to be a recurring pattern. Roger seemed to like them young when he could get them. You know at that age, but oftentimes he had to settle. You know for older women, the more mature prostitutes, but but most of them were supporting drug habits. Many of them were supported.

Drug habits of their pimps, slash, boyfriends, and that was a recurring theme. Over and over. It was just life on the streets of Portland or any other major city for that matter. Where you have this kind of activity and it makes people like Tracy, you know a perfect right victim for people like Rogers mean they're out there there in the open, they're taking risks that they probably know that they shouldn't be taking and, of course, people like Dayton. Rogers knew this so easy victim for someone like What would I found very interesting was this the pimp, the boyfriend and her mission was to go out on the streets and make enough money. She said for a couple days worth of motel food crack cocaine.

And alcohol, and so you know for five hundred dollars, and so you even describe based leave around the issue six game, because it was good looking, sometimes make eighty dollars, but on this particular night the cheese hitch hiking a it's raining now. What I found most interesting is that she had warned about you know this blue. She had a description of the vehicle of a guy that you can tell us what that description was that warning was and and then also what I found interesting was that you point out. That may be the reason. Why are the reason why the boyfriend said that they should go to second avenue was because the real freaks, the enema guys the just reality, guys the the orchard guys, I couldn't believe, This were actually more known to be those kinds of clients downtown.

Tell us a little bit more about both this. Well, you know Naturally they couldn't see more than two or three days into their futures and that accounts for a lot of their thinking there, mainly just thinking about getting by for the next day or two and includes their drug and alcohol habits, but but you're right there were certain areas where certain types of

Johns, the lack of a better word. You know that would frequent and while I may not know them off the top of my head, my research into the book showed me that many of the prostitutes working these various areas, new at least a little bit about the kinds of guys who frequent ended with a certain area such as the you know, the enema freak's bondage freak are the violent ones and at this particular time- and I think what you might have been referring to was that there were warnings out to the the girls on a month among themselves, and you know, among others, to people on the street watch out for this man named Steve, the gambler and he drove a no little blue

Tucson pick up and he had been known to be violent with his for those dates, and so the warnings were out there that get people the women kept taking the chances suppose out of desperation, you and I it's harder for us to fathom what would drive people do to go to these lengths or to take such risks. But you know so documented fact that they do and it's it's sad what I found fascinating was that they had to give a good description of the vehicle pretty well gives when Tracy actually did see it cheat at least recognized that memory of okay, here's a description of that vehicle from this kind of guy and then description of the guy, but didn't any Buddy give her a physical description of the guy. I thought that was odd.

There weren't the physical descript, they we're going around in the early days, which would have included when Tracy had her encounter with Rogers they were very limited. Descriptions are very vague, very They knew they were looking for a you know. A white guy seemed you know. Reasonable, seem to have manners. Soft spoken sort of the, but that's about all they really had to go on it. Found. Her sort of thing now. If somebody had come out, come forward and said, hey, he kind of looked a little bit like John Ritter No, that would help mentally. You know yeah at that stage from Dayton's life group. If there is a resemblance there, but nobody did that, unfortunately

There was one particular other than will I'll give I'll give it away bondage, but there was one other particular fetish that there was quite unique that. Come becomes a port a little bit later. Yeah does the seat the seat yeah all of the fever. What better yeah paramount I mean over the floor. Yes, the Yeah, I don't know how much you want to get into that here, but. It we will eventually yeah. Yahoo Spanish was just unbelievable. I had never would What I found interesting was that she was this Tracy, though at sixteen years old was actually warned that he sometimes like to get violently like you said, but. He also like knives and often cut his dates. And when we're talking about desperate. Even I am kind of shocked like this. That really people were worn.

Like that still took a chance, I mean Even I'm perfect yeah me too but I think it really boils down to this It'll never happen to me syndrome, sort of thing now they know it's out there, they hear about it, they see it, but it's not going to happen to me happened to the other person. Yeah? I really believe: there's a major part in it. Yeah can you explain that to now Now tell us about the go back to the this amazing event with Tracy hitchhiking it's March, it's a little bit cold. It's rainy she's, dressed real scantily, so she's not got to clothing and she wants to just been out for ten minutes or so, and she has a sort of a mindset. Take us back where you take the reader to what she's doing and and what that evening. Well, she's out,

exposed to the March weather for one thing and in the Pacific NW. That's not you know very very nice weather and she was out sure I understand and passion pink ankle at five hundred correctly on. And She was basically out showing off for wares to try to to attract some business. And the best way. She knew how was to dress that way into you know: acted younger possible and see how many people she could attract, how many guys you know from the street sure- and it's just a typical night for her- probably a pretty typical night for Dayton Tooth as far as that goes, but but Anyway, that's what she was doing. She she was just out working the streets and.

She like to hang around and Burger out there to Bob's big boy, I don't think there are too many of those around anymore but anyway, I don't know how much you want me to get into that. I mean, I think, that's pretty much covers, but she was doing the setup or evening she we just wanted to make sure that they had the money earner boyfriend. You know to to take other drugs and alcohol room for a while and and one point Steve. The gambler pulled up his blue pickup truck.

Now- and you know you have a likable face like I said Before- he was softspoken kind of mild mannered personality until he worked himself into one of those frenzies and then it was a different matter. But she must have trusted him because she certainly got into the truck with him. And then once you did that, of course it was all downhill and so till she managed to get away now, let's not skip. For that, because that tells us a lot about what happened to the people that didn't get away because will never be able to tell that story so that it is with with she what you said in the book was that she noticed the blue rock and it fit the description. But again she might.

She rationalized, because she needed the money. She didn't want to be out that long again, just not thinking too far ahead. She was she's barely sixteen years old, so she got He seemed to be normal good, looking soft spoken, like you said he got into the vehicle. How did it? How did this date proceed?. Well, they rode along for awhile. I think they they discussed. You know the date at one point and probably arrive to the price, and- and you know I think his quiet Nahs eventually began to bother her, but you know none the less. You know she stuck with.

For awhile and and again as she's, not believing that something bad is about to happen to her, but then nigga You know one point colder: they want to see her feet. You want to look at our feet and you know she's thinking that it's a strange request when he you know, tells her that the emotion is take off her shoes and and but she did. You know what she was told. She was paying attention to I'm noticing that he was getting you know aroused by by what she was doing and

that's the nature of the business, so you know the date goes on and you know he pushes some his trademark drain code, orange juice and vodka, typical screwdriver, honor 'cause. It's easy to Kerry, easy to max easy to dispose up 'cause. He used the little airline type bottles, vodka. Orange juice purchased at a by the seven eleven or the other convenience store and. He used the alcohol. I think as much to make himself relaxed more as much as he did too. To try and loosen up. You know the girls but, like I said I don't know if I should have said with his trademark, because that's kind of revealing but yeah,

so that's where it's done. Yeah now she has. She has her doubts when first with the vehicle a little bit and then when he talks about the feet, but then he sort of see used to be he doesn't proceed anything violent. It seems I want to drink some alcohol, then he negotiates with her that he says. Listen, I only got forty bucks and alcohol right away, she's not even used to making that much money. She agrees to it now, whoa this is idea and how do they get to Mallela? So how does it? How does the date go that she what happens well, the SE part of the city where there at also the eighty second. This is kind of heading in that direction. Anyway, you know towards my wallet Forrester in the vicinity already right, so they just have to draw

two more miles down the road and get off the freeway and there. They are. You know deep in law and the Myla forests It really didn't. Take very long. Excuse me, but. We have. We have kind of a a little bit of a route. You know that you like to use- and I I think it becomes somewhat a parent- is as the reader you know, delves into the book, but but anyway, they drink vodka and I agree on their their dates and they they had to Malala Forest Road in and

our and some point he tells our together. You know all of her clothes off to be a completely undressed and, and she agrees- and she asked for the money first, but at some point you know you hit the brings bondage into the situation as it's looking at her. You know you full naked body he's. Obviously family probably recalling something that you done previously with someone else and you know bondage gets brought up and and the feet thing and and

You know it says that he actually tells you that that's the only way that that he can do it is to be ties, are up, plays with her feet and basically masturbates, and she says she feels like that. She can handle that, and I guess it goes. Gone from there, but you know when she she got into the restrains. She started complaining that they were to tighten and he gets angry and tells her she agreed to do it and and so forth, it's almost like he was, I don't know, there's no longer the nice guy, His personality was changing and she was becoming more and more scared, and but again she was one of the lucky ones. You know she complained and she thought with him and and.

Elder to fight as much as she wants to know what we are here her in for a spin and then he he goes on and starts talking about so Mormon at the a new before more rain. Definitely you know fantasy if you and, as you know, from studying this kind of work, serial killers typically like to relive they've done over and over and over and He apparently was doing reliving his experience with Tracy using another victim Maureen, and she.

He comes into play later on in the book. You not clear at this stage that that's who he's talking about, but it becomes clearer later honestly and uh. Anyway, he gets violent with her. She he starts biting her biting her her feet. I believe- and she screams at him and tells him that wasn't part of the the deal and that he needs to back off, basically and- and he really put fear into her when he pulled kitchen knife out of his glove compartment and held it. You know next tour next to her body and but he threatened at that point he was going to he wanted to cut off her breasts and she basically fought back and told him that

no way that that he was going to cut off her breasts, and I believe that her action of fighting back with him trying to take control situation, at least as best she could might have shocked him back into reality enough to the. So he was no longer either not in the mood to go through with what he had planned or it had scared him out of being in the mood to carry on with what he had planned, but for whatever reason, her standing up to him call Jim to back down and he ended up this is this is a we we don't want to. I don't want to underestimate how powerful. This. This scene in your book is how powerful it is for that woman I was totally taken aback Woman at some point figures: Listen! I I I'm hoping I can get out of this. I've been

optimistic. So far. Maybe if I go along with this guy 'cause he's changes, personality radically to listen, bitch and he's got he's got her hog, tide and fee. Face down and he's he's not entering her nicely and he's well endowed and he's mean and and it seems like he's reveling in any kind of pain and any kind of blood, the sight of blood and so he's. She's really afraid. And so we don't underestimate that fear and then says: listen, there's only two ways: either here either I I'm going to cut both your breasts off. I'm going to strangle you and then she mustered up this at least 'cause. She couldn't move She said well you're going to have to kill me. She yelled at him you're going to have to kill me cuz you're, not going to carve me up.

And I was blown away on how powerful that was from this woman to be able to. Crack this mind of this guy. At that point, it's very important will talk about this. This point in time how important that is and hurt obvious being a so escape so tell us now more about he puts her she puts him in in in in his place. How does it come that he thinks geez? Quite what I've done to her, despite what she gone through and seen and witnessed. Let her go tell us about that. Well, it would really be just supposition on my part. More than anything you know, the fact is that he did let her go with

it was out of fear or whether he felt sorry for her. You know I have no way of knowing what the reason was other than the. Of course it has been twenty years since I wrote the book it just it just seems like he had a he lost his edge. He lost the edge that he had with his victim and when he realized that he he just let her go. I mean he probably at some point knew that his impending doom was, you know out

sure that he would eventually get caught, no matter wat. He must have thought about it, but in this particular instance, why let go of a person you know potential witness. It could be that he felt like that she just wouldn't hell or that they would never have to connect to a lot of these. A lot of these girls never did public reason till later. Well I mean it seems that, and again it's it might be. It might just be. What I have inferred from it is that any kind of previous attack Max will say- or this kind of behavior was never rip- what it was Ported among the women. But, like you stayed in the book These people aren't going to go because they likely have warrants and that's why Tracy was hesitant to warrants police, not caring much anyway thinking it's just.

Date gone bad, so I go. That kind of information probably floats among the women themselves to to the point where there's no use. You know so uh you stay in the book that he likely knew that as well, but What I found was fascinating was that did he you kind of 'em. Read more into it that he lost his enjoyment right there, a sort of an edge of fantasy and excitement, but It's sort of got drained out of him was no more enjoyment at that point. Well yeah. I I I believe that that was true. Part of the thrill part of the sexual thrill was his dominance over her and suddenly he had lost and and that that's like almost like sticking out, you know ten in the balloon. I mean just pop he he this you know I have lost over to go because that was

is his Modis operandi and that's just the way he operated. He liked to do it that way, and that way he got off on committing his crimes. And suddenly there was this woman who burst his bubble. Now you would think that most people most people would go to the police, so she didn't go to. The police must have told, did she tell her boyfriend, I mean what about she must have worn the other women. Tell us what happened after I'm trying to remember back if she did go to the police. It was a little bit late. Or maybe I wasn't initially know yeah, I don't believe it was right away, no I know I know detective Turner did find out about her later, but I thought I knew those front words and backwards, but I've been twenty years so.

Now she she bumps into a person, that's known on the street, that's working the streets as well. Co worker named MOE and while MO is giving her some hard luck story, she realize she tells her about Tells MOE about her experience with Steve and tell put that conversation between the two well she, Basically, when she heard that Tracy it you don't have to some counter with was Rogers or Steve the gamblers who was known she. She basically said that you know she wouldn't have anything to do with them anymore and. You know this has been, I don't know she MOE had gone out on a few dates with Rogers Ann,

and it becomes clear as you get into the book and and with the interviews with the various prostitutes, but on. She? She just basically gave her a word of warning. You know to stay the hell away from him. If he ever, she never came. You know had to encounter him again. She recognized him as dangerous. She, you know her mole herself was not going to have anything else to do with, I don't know when her actions or when her business actually ended with Rogers and must have been. You know when he killed her and to have to be your final and that's obvious final thing. But whether or not there were many in

Counters, as opposed to just a few between Marine and Rogers from the time that Marine was finding out about what she was hearing on the streets. It's probably the anybody's guests. I would just be you know give me a conjecture at this point. Yeah. What I found incredible is that. Tracy, doesn't really make the connection between Moen Maureen, despite the name so they have the conversation where in Maureen warns Tracy, who you know was already warned before by someone. Maybe even somebody like. Marine who told someone else This is remarkable. So Seri warns, Tracy and states are uh, experience are we having gone on these dates with this freakazoid.

And then she goes on more dates. With the guy yeah even though she tells listen. If you even bump into the guy, called the cops. If you have to and then Maureen goes back on dates with this guy. Now before we go, any further. We. Introduce this we've. Introduced to this gentleman here, so maybe we can give us the background on this gentleman before we go any further, you Rogers, yes, please well He had a very unusual background unusual by my standards. Anyway, he was born in Moscow id, and that in itself is not so unusual. But his parents were, you, know religious zealots,

and moved around a lot. Some point believe they even lived in chicken coops wherever they could find shell. But very, very strict parents. You know the statement believe I have a sister yeah. I have a thing about his sister's shoes which the family tried to keep quiet. Eighty eight was, you know, basically a loner,

You know too many friends growing up, none that I could find there were he he he fits your basic, I guess profile of bomb. How so many of these other guys, you know Gacy Bundy, always guys how they developed is. This time was perhaps shorter than some of the others. His family life and I'm I'm hesitant to always try to put the blame off on my own heart. Child was raised to me They've been horrendous parents in the world and they don't all turn out to be bad seat like that, but but one can't help but wonder the way he was brought up had something to do with it. He got involved in in, like my

you're not really minor. I don't want to try to oversimplify anything that he ever did, but with the crime that he was involved in were less severe early on then then they became as he progressed through through the and by saying that I mean that he had encounters with younger girls. We got him in trouble with the cops and it was mainly usually just hand. Slapping type thing you get arrested, you known, charged and released in it was. It was kind of sad in a way because had they recognized early on and the type of person that they were dealing with Dayton may not have killed so many women, but unfortunately that didn't happen, and we we had this monster running.

Portland area for quite some time, what were the? What were the relatively minor crimes of we hear about them? Maybe we could see how they might be a to establish some sort of future pattern or future threat. Well,. You know there were encounters with the girls or he was like the teenager, maybe a little bit older. And I don't want to go too far and to his other crimes, because a lot of them were never adjudicated and- and I just you know, kind of going to be a little bit what was: was there any warning signs that that could have been seen for saying some? Sometimes the. Some people, don't seem to be recognized by the courts where in hindsight they should have been it was there any indication of that here.

Some oversight you know sort of when he stabbed the girl in Eugene, for instance. That was a perfect idea of uh. Oversight. There I mean it just. They should have seen that this guy you his violent tendency and Quite. Why would he staver Lever in the woods and go back later to try and save her that was supposedly with his girlfriend at the time or somebody that he had thought of as possibly a girlfriend but just the fact that you stabbed her out of nowhere. That came out of out of nowhere, not sure the benefit clue right there right, yeah, it didn't was released and life went on. No of what point does he does he get married in and started assuming this real normal life? How young or is he.

I don't remember how old he was when they got married right off the top of my head, but the He was actually married a couple of times and, and his first wife actually came to see me in the book- signing I didn't believe it was really her until she showed me a picture of her and eight hundred and their wedding and- and But he was married to this other woman for a while. Then he married his later wife during the time of the killing. And I'm reluctant to name her name, she probably wants to get on with her life right now, but they have

child together. Boy and you know, Dayton was running a small engine repair shop out of small town there, South Portland, and he was fairly successful at it. He made a decent living for his family and. But he was living these. These two lives he's going to work, repairing small engines and then staying out late instead of come Home to his wife and child, he was murdering prostitutes and making up excuses to his wife. So you know he was living a double life to be sure. And from all indications, he did really have this. It was, a loner, but have these the facade of the marriage in the in the in the child? Was he this this genuine, very much like Bundy able to have this, as you describe this sort of a mask about him, this really duality yeah. He

add social skills and there's There's, no doubt about it. The he knew when to to pour on the charm and when not to you may not is done quite as adept as Bundy. You know in that regard, but the ability was there. So was amazingly of that Tracy back It doesn't go to the police up. At least never hear about. Why do not hear about this report?. So much later or know about her at all Moe disappears at some point there the six month period tell us about that period in Portland what what was going on and tell us what happened in that six months.

Well, can you be a little bit more specific about the the six month period? I'm not making well after Tracy didn't report anything to police, then later the much well. We he alluded to it in the introduction about the hunter accidentally. Finding the bodies, but what happens with investigation, itself into these women disappearing. Well, they're, basically documenting the disappearances and they're taking reports from you know, potential witnesses and they've we've talked to a number of these women and they're. Beginning to you know, see similarities certain things that that we're standing out, but nothing real, definitive yet, and

Really, I don't think they. He would have known about Rogers for quite some time if he hadn't screwed up on on his final kill, but. I'm not quite sure where you're trying to go with that other than well, I I maybe like, maybe that the amount of months wrong, but I know that the investigate I mean obviously there's a a pro but as of a force, that's looking at this. At the same time, you you talk about in your book. Is that the reason why you know, Rogers was very careful. Til Tracy Baxter And then he felt well jeez. You know, I don't think you know he was pretty. Confident. She wasn't going to go to the police. He wasn't that worried He didn't really change what he was doing so at some point we we alluded to that. He

has he finally makes a mistake? He's very careful, though, before that there are nobody's there is no there's no web because there's no one showing up so tell us what happens, how does everything all change. What happens to what happens to our here here that somehow he is not careful anymore. Well, basically, we a number of women who are disappearing one by one of the Portland streets over period of month and the key over who's obviously out there, but we have no bodies yet to prove murder. So he's obviously getting away with what he likes to do and he's probably

building up a lot of confidence in doing it, and this this one on for some time, and you know- and it will never be the occasional case that would come, and please, with interview someone that you know something might ring a bell similarity in name, you know place or whatever, but it was never enough to two.

Make the determination that there was something actually actively going on, not until Everett Banyard the hunter stumbled upon daytons cluster dump in the Molalla Forest once he stumbled upon those bodies and reported it to the Clackamas County Sheriff's department. That's when the case really broke wide open and that would have been you know, beginning of the end, for Rogers by by the time that the cops actually get up there, and this is one of the reasons why I wrote the book in the manner that I did. It was too hard to to put it together in a dramatic fashion and strictly Crom

I tried to to do that by showing the the final kill about it of Jennifer LISA Smith at the Denny's restaurant, by showing that first in detail, because. It clearly showed Rogers in action. It showed what he like to do had eye witnesses who saw him doing it an he fled the scene and basically escape for a short time until the cops track them down the wee hours of the morning. It is at his shop, South Portland. Then, of course cigarette break comes a little bit later. I don't know if you want to get into that yet or not sure. Just proceed DIS proceed from there. Basically, what I wanted to do is establish. I mean to me, remarkable why anybody would jump in a vehicle.

As a problem, I I understand prostitution, but I didn't understand this element of it: I didn't I didn't understand, so I wanted to introduce somebody that survived and then you would gold now, the police, one. No still the police, don't know so no so tell us more about Stella, More about the discovery, what the police do right from there, what How do they proceed? Well, the have been getting these reports. All along of this guy who, like to you, know, be rough with his dates and so forth, and there was one recurring theme That seemed to be among them, and that was it he always like to drink vodka and orange juice. Vodka. Being in the small airline bottles, orange juice being from those types, bodices convenience stores.

It wasn't until after Jenny Smith was murdered in front of dining patrons at the Denny's restaurant Milwaukee Oregon. That Rogers was arrested. Of course, Ann. They had that one murder on him right then, and there, but that's all they knew at that point. But then there comes Everett Banyard, the hunter and he reports finding these bodies upon the Molalla florist. So John Turner and Jim strove ink and different ones from the cloud,

in this county, Sheriff's department head up there and find them, you know designated as a crime scene, they straight they basically, you know, do the whole operation always supposed to be done and at one point they encountered orange juice bottles and the small miniature vodka bottles that have been dropped off near one of the bodies, and that was the clue. The one single thing that put in detective turners mind that Dayton Rogers was behind these killings.

And it was, it was mainly because of of I'm having trouble remembering exactly how he put this together. You, you read the book recently I I haven't, but but there was something that I should know this, but God it's been so long. You know they had something to do with the the alcohol in orange juice. I thought with Jenny Smith too, but maybe not I'm not I'm thinking of what you're referring to but Yeah, I probably got off on a tangent and I shouldn't have there. No, no, no! I wanted to know what was the was the police. Was their idea in terms of the Timeline timeline in that cluster dump that he did have there would did the police initially look at and say this day they think was a large expanse of time or shorter, expensive time.

In terms of how the how got and how long it's been there since they've been there well, it was a long time it was like it was. It was less than two years. If memory serves me correctly, you had to look at the dates for the victims that they were finding up there and when they when they disappeared, but it was as overall, the fairly Ok short period of time, but one that could have went on and on and on had it not been, for you know, daytons carelessness with the vodka balls, but I think I I just remembered where Turner had seen the vodka bottles and it's been when they impounded his pickup truck Right right any smoke and that's what it calls to ring the bell when they found the debris or the garbage in the forest near the body

tell us a little bit about detective John Turner in terms of who he was before this sort of wow not sort of only changed his life for a couple years. It's a great detective, if not Somebody want on your half, I don't know he. John and I developed a great relationship over a period that I was writing this book and even before and after that, we've known each other because of my days of writing for true detective, so he kind of a open door policy with drop by and we talk and if you had something I'd research it. But when I put this on him, he decided that he had to take this to the sheriff and and find out if they could cooperate.

And so they did it. The sheriff was very happy to be able to have this case highlighted in touch a positive manner for their department, because they really did do an outstanding job on on solving it, and so I get this phone call one day from John says: you need to meet me. Downtown were gonna. Make this easy as possible. He said, need to meet me downtown in a parking garage, so I'm thinking wow, ok, Woodward and Bernstein. Deep throat type stuff so anyway, we go to the parking garage when I pull up next his car and he basically unloads all copies of the case. Files from his car in the minors like six boxes does take. Him study am getting back when you're done, but any question

In the mean time, just call me and that's how I had such good information from number one on how the case who was handled and two that information enabled me to go and talk with people in person, because I could track them down. I was basically dealing with same thing that the cops were dealing with yeah. It was amazing the access you had in that information is just invaluable really to this story. Yeah. But you know I have the utmost respect for John Turner. I think he might be retired now I've kind of lost track of what's going on up there been away so long, but they only all did a great great work on the case.

Well, it's it's it's! It seems to be hard to fathom for some people, but not every officer goes in into this without a certain amount of bias. So we we hear constantly how less valued prostitute story is or the prostitute is in terms of a victim. Certainly it seems not it's not just the police, I'm in terms of society in general, media, the public and often time. Police are just in that small group of people. Well, could care less, but this person was not That's not what he was made of no so? No he actually cared for the victims and- and I think by and large we get this perception of a lot of cops, really don't care. You know from the lower dregs of society or whatever something happens to him. You know it's their fault. They deserve

or whatever sure, you've got a a number of people who have that attitude. But I believe for the most part that you almost have to believe this. In my line of work and as far as just being human, I go so we have to. We have to believe that they care at all about what they're doing, at least to some degree and John definitely demonstrated he cared about the victims. Well, more importantly, to the you know, if you, if you are- and he had a rate- that's what you put in the book to that, he had a certain level of outrage and so so these kinds of people are hell bent on catching the criminals. So, as much They care about the victims, of course, because they deal with the families so. How could you not be sympathetic because there's families involved, but it's their job, the dirty job.

To get these guys to listen to confessions, to get all the necessary evidence and live with these cases till completion? So. I find the homicide detectives are not obviously you know a lot more involved than the general cop on the beat. Might have a bad misrepresentation of a young cop. That's a little still naive, but the homicide detective is not a guy that just started off. So that's true, very true. Not in one of the come sorry go ahead, no go ahead that you go out on a common now, what what happens with with police now that they have just this murder witness And, and also this other mounting evidence, what is what is

police interview like with Rogers well. There? You know, of course, there were several but the the main interviews before he. You know lawyers up and wouldn't talk about all this. You know date. We have this evidence, and all week your your car was seen at the scene of the crime. You have a witness, showed you stabbing. Victim? You know we even have the knife, we have your vehicle, it was warm, you don't attach you're, saying you didn't drive it and so on and so forth. Yes, cuts on his fingers. You know defensive wounds. Evidently, uh

You know they, they know, they've got him red handed and they know they have someone read hand at least for Ginny Smith, and, and you know so it first they're not they're, not polite at all, and they basically accused him of this, and accusing with that and of course it's all related to Jenny Smith during the first encounters and then then later on, a lawyers up, anyone doesn't speak to anybody now pretty much the end of end of that other than what was in the official police reports in a row, so the evidence so the evidence that they? have against him is, is, is a lot more than circumstantial at that time. Dna is not tell us about the. It'd be dna at that time. Well,

It would have been in the mid to late eighties, from the crimes are being committed in DNA was still in its very early stages, yeah and Is there they were beginning to work with it and you know, use it as a tool, but I don't believe that there was much done as far as DNA is concerned with not with this particular case us. So you know I I mean I could be mistaken. I I just don't recall it right now it does no. No, you know. But as for using it down, but so how did the what? What is the case that they put together with what, with the what is the evidence that they do, have how, strong a case can they put together on him of course, he has a good lawyer. Tell us why they do have on him in terms of evidence. Well, they have a lot of fiber evidence and hair. They blood typing

you know a much of it came from inside the truck itself. The underneath the floor, you know, is basically to soak blood and a lot of it. Would have been really great. Dna evidence had been available to them at the time, but instead it was mainly blood typing, hair fiber. You know I haven't maybe being seen in the vicinity of somewhere the the orange juice lot of. It was circumstantial, of course, but yeah yeah. They they built a as good a case is, I guess they could have built against him based on what they had and, as you probably know, from reading the book and went through the system, you know two or three times and he still on death row. It hasn't hasn't been put to death.

Chances are you probably won't be in Oregon the they they have a a decent case against them? This I want to back at what point to police at an. What circumstances do police speak with Tracy Baxter that came out? and the hole for me that came out hello. But later on, and if the problem may be used to go, give her a fictitious name and so forth. But it came out during the interviews with the the prostitute there's a section in the book that kind of deals with that. But I don't you know, go into great detail. What there's just too much no other info

use step, but I I use enough of it to work. It would give the reader a good idea of what kind of information please you know receiving and what kinds of details of prostitutes were providing them. The interviews were quite detailed and interesting and that that's where I found. What is the evidence of the Utah we talked about in the in the beginning, which is this guy is quite unique. I mean serial killers lol very often share a lot of characteristics of this guy. Of course shares many of those characteristics, but has some unique features too? this mutilation. While people are alive where, where is a lot of them might mutilate afterwards tell us what evidence they did get from the pro,

to do some cells in terms of what this Rogers was like and likely did to his. Comes he enjoys torturing them. I mean I was very clear in a you. He would bite them on their feet, the bottoms of their feet and other parts of their bodies. The point of you know where, where they would bleed and calls them tremendous pain, he would cut the heels of their for their feet. You know with a knife: there was evidence that he, if this rated one of his victims with a machete, the basic you know, shoved it into her vagina and then cut her from there all the way up to the sternum. Presumably while she was alive and conscious, or at least for a moment or two and he enjoyed sewing their feet off, he would take a hacksaw, and this was more theory than

But there was evidence shown that in some of the two or three of his victims he would take a hacksaw and cut their ankles. You know like a half way or two thirds of the way through to elicit more pain, two to cause more pain, to elicit a better. In response to something that he would enjoy and when they would go into shock and and basically not provide any show for him. I guess for lack of better it wouldn't break the bone. The rest of the way is to try and you know, listen response.

So there there were many indicators, including witness testimony that he thoroughly enjoyed torturing his victims and definitely had a blood last three left for blood. And what was his idea about the cluster dump and in when police believe that there, may be other victims. I Again, what's their idea that there may be other victims? No, there was one victim that went on identified for a number of years? Victim number- seven, I believe, or maybe it was eight. I can't recall for sure she was recently identified and attributed to him. She was one of those found in the forest.

A lot was Rogers idea. One can only guess at the hope, to elude detection by cluster dumping. The body is up there in the middle of the forest, and it's really creepy never been up there. You would know exactly what I was talking about, because it's there's nothing there. You know in the middle of of a massive dark, wet forest with forest sounds, and nobody around for miles perfect opportunity to get to get rid of the body, and he evidently thought that it would buy him more time by placing them. He just never thought ever. Banners would come wandering through there one day, but was was a careless with that with the cluster dump itself at some point or how was what are I'm sorry, if I didn't under and exactly how this hunter found, something that you

It took a lot. He took a lot of effort to be able to do this, so how did the the hunter actually stumble across that? I think the Hunter just you know I mean got lucky. I mean I mean just call that luck, but to me by when I viewed the lot of the pictures that were taken from up there. It looked to me like he was careless, it didn't seem, like any extra care had been made to. You know, cover the bodies or whatever he just find a place to toss a body out here. It's not going to be found for a long time, and I think that a certain amount of this thinking I mean, I know you know one can only gas. What do you attribute the him being so careful for so long and then in the last instance with Jenny Smith? What was in public in the crowded in a way what happened was a business is

Descent into, as we see sometimes with serial killers, where they are quite organized, even Jeffrey Dahmer, was quite organ Isn't careful, but then wasn't what. What do you attribute it to? I think he just a certain amount of the control that he was having over Jenny, and I think of a certain amount of. It was panic. I think a part of it might have been the build up phase where he's building up the excitement and uh. I think he got a little bit too bold by using this parking lot of a Denny's restaurant. It was very dark parking lot. I should say where it's located at that time of the early morning. It would be difficult for someone. You know to easily see him.

But in this case it was made easier to be seen because of Jenny's screaming and then once courses a person as been the eyeball, the source of the screaming. They can see that there's a naked woman out there partially found covered in blood, and this guys you know hovering over stabbing her, but I think that part of the excitement or the build up it got to him and he couldn't hold back. Couldn't wait, cause him to become careless and then, of course, you have Jenny, no trying to escape through him into a panic situation, and once he panicked witnesses had seen him in one person chased him, you know got his license. Number was really basically all over just everything was put together now. Sometimes cases like this warrant, I guess of a good,

response from the public or interest from abroad from international media, but sometimes when the story is particularly shocking? Sometimes even the media kind of gets a little gun shy, was the media and the public response to this trial. As I recall, the media, you know was all over it. You know months and the the public's response was. You know one of typical shock and all my god, you know I can't.

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