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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dtk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. It was the biggest funeral Chicago had seen since lincolns are, May twenty six one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine four thousand mourners preceded down Michigan Ave, followed by a crowd

forty thousand strong, In a howl of protest at what commentators called one the gas list and curious crimes in civilized history, the dead then Doctor Ph Cronan was a respected irish position. This brutal murder uncovered a web of intrigue, secrecy and corruption. That stretched. Cross the United States and far beyond. Blood runs, green, tells the story Cronin's murder from the police investigation to the trial. It is just of hot headed journalist In pursuit of sensational crimes of a bunch police force, riddled with informers and spies and of a secret. Revolutionary society, determined to free Ireland from Britain succeeding only in tearing itself apart. It is

Also, the story of a booming immigrant population clamoring for power, at a time of unprecedented change, from back rooms, to courtrooms historian Julian O'Brien. Definitely navigates the complexities of Irish Chicago bring to Why? For rich cast of characters and tracing the spectacular rise and fall of the secret Irish american society, clan, The Gail. She draws on real life accounts and sources from the United States, Ireland and Britain. The cast new light. Uncleanly Gail and reveal how irish republicanism swept across the United States. Destined to be a true crime, classic blood as green is an enthralling tale of a murder. The captain did the world and reverberated through society long after that often closed the book that we are featuring evening, is blood, run

is green with my special guest journal, author and historian Jillian O'Brien. And Julian O'Brien is call from Liverpool, England today and Using our direct connect with the in actions provided by Blogtalkradio and we have a problem connecting for those unfortunate. Persons there we'll listen to this live, which are a handful. We will give land of customary few minutes to try to connect and I'll edit. This portion out. I know most problems to do that, but I will and

if not I'm sure Julian is still very interested and being interviewed regarding her book blood moon screen and there she is right now. Good evening Gillian O'Brian good evening. I just did the introduction for your book. Blood runs green, thank you, so much for agreeing to this interview, I know you're calling from your home and liver, cool. Is that correct? That's correct. I want to. Thank you very much. Let's start off with really the necessary background on your book, the history. Behind the formation of the secret Irish Publican Move and in terms of the societies that we're pretty test were prior to the clan, the Gale and

so tell us about the Fenians and before the clan, the and tell us about that whole formation of Irish Republican Party, Irish Sea, in societies and the formation of this clay. In the if I've mispronounced that please correct me. No, no, no you're quite quite accurate. Well, this beanie Things and Planigale come I of told. I spoke their posts. The Irishman, when huge numbers of Irish had immigrated many of them to the United States. Many of them to Canada and There was a growing belief that the only way to defeat the british and to regain or gain control of Ireland and establish an Irish republic was through using forced to do so that constitutional means wouldn't necessarily work and so

there are a number of groups were established. I am, and probably the most well known as as well as the fenian group, which was established in the late and eighteen fifties and dot group within, secret society and its it was dedicated to using force. To try and establish an irish republic, and very often in these irish secret society is the very first thing. Any agenda is the split and so there were a lot of divisions within those groups. Between they would achieve this freedom and the very strategies that we use on the level of connection they would have with their counterparts in art and Britain, and so the fenian movement ultimately had sort of a series of uprisings or attempted uprisings in the late 1860s, particularly in eighteen, sixty seven, There were again they weren't as successful as they thought they would be, and out of this is a disappointment

created with the lack of success. You have a split fenian movement, and out of that you get. The establishment of a group called climb. The gale, which means the fan- the Irish or the family of the gale and that's the group, so I was particularly interested in when I came to to write the book now, let's talk about? Also, the you, talked about the strategy to be able to free Ireland from Britain and met with is about, but this also comes from tradition of these secret societies in Ireland, like you mention, The hibernians in the free masons, another fractured societies so tell us Little bit more about again, we very important we talk about spies and how they would Try to weed out informers in these organizations, and especially as the clan, the Gale Anne it as further so tell us about the importance

in secret societies and some of the code. That were involved in where it really came from the traditions well the traditional lady of secret Soc, thirteen irish Republican ISM goes back to the end of the 18th century. At the end of the 18th century, there was a group established called the society of United Irishman and that society was set up. Be inspired by the French Revolution and they set themselves up to achieve irish independence and they let in one thousand seven hundred and ninety eight, the largest rebellion ever seen on irish soil. One. The problems with the society I nice size is that it was a secret society and it was designed to operate secrets, but one of the issues that they had was that they held many of their meetings will be held in essentially saloons or bars, which isn't

Go for any sort of secret society, because once a lot of alcohol been taken very often the secrets begin to pass around those areas, and so later generations had racking. Is that there were issues to do with secrecy and problems with secrecy within these irish republican organizations, and so what time you get to the fenian movement they've established quite a they developed level of level of secrecy and they are inspired by the difference. Jasons and a number of other organizations. So there are things like secret codes, so uh if you were to meet, but a member of Turner Gail with Athenians, you would If you were a member- and you wanted to elect another month to another round- is with the member, you would run your finger along. The inside of your caller from through for your ear is styled towards your neck. You do that twice, and I will

indicates to the person you were looking at that you were a member. If they recognize that symbol they would respond, by running the middle finger of their right hand down and a side of their face. So then you would recognize each other and be able to converse about sort of secret. So they had all sorts of sort of secrets. Find in that way. They uh So in some cases, wrote in invisible ink Adam and they had a guy who's coming and how to close to the Usfsa secret spy, which they wrote in code that the problem, and was that it was a very easily it was very the rebel coast. All they did was they replaced with lesser with another. So you would replace the letter all with the letter J, so each letter that came after us in the offense will be replaced. So it was extremely easy to decipher and therefore anytime. A letter was intercepted. The

british police would easily know what the plans were. So you talk Put the clan was founded in the US in New York and they called District Day and in Chicago was huge. Irish presents and then you can tell us about what I refer two in terms of the importance of Chicago at that time, as as a city as well It was Chicago's District K and, which also included all of Illinois and Michigan. So tell us a little bit about that. Before we talk about the import the fund raising in all of this well, the EAST coast of the United States. Was where a lot of these organizations started and that isn't really a surprise, because a lot of those

we became members of these organizations had come from art and and during the great irish famine of the eighteen forties and in the years afterwards, and so most of those who arrives would've arrives on the eastern seaboard today would have landed into Boston or they would have landed into New York. Hyundai is publish themselves in those cities, and they do Spread through the United States, so most of these organizations began hello, the eastern seaboard, but as the trains moved towards the w as new opportunities for growth and for jobs developed. Many of the Irish in New York and Boston other places, also West. I, what is the basis that they moved to Wa Chicago? A lot of that is it's part of doing for building the Big canal network. An awful lot moved be cause of the stock, parts in the employment available in stock yards a lot of the move because of the railways

And so you have a move w as Far West Radio San Francisco, where you begin to have a large irish population. So by the time we get to the 1880s and particularly the period after the great fire of eighteen. Seventy one Chicago had true entire t rebuild itself, and it did with great in theory, but also did with huge manpower and many Irish came and rebuilt Chicago into something that was bigger and better and grander than had existed before and that's really why you get that move from the east coast. To the Midwest. But it's also because the leadership of the catholic church. In most of these irish, you were involved at where Catholic leadership, the catholic Church in Chicago with more sympathetic towards typical irish Republican ISM. Then it was in other parts of the United States right no

We talked you talk about the numerous Saint Patrick's day, another celebrations holidays. The Irish a celebrated part me and- and you also talk about fund raising and then the lure of jobs? So for for sheer numbers and four and for for Planigale important were these picnics fundraisers and the info is that a lot of these people were interested in jobs and there was promises of jobs with membership yeah without doubt trade trade away. I don't know that they ever to ranks, he promised jobs, but it was certainly the case that if you were a member and if you knew senior member the town again, who tended to be- and rather to be well off. I mean there, there was definitely a sort of class structure so

the leaders of Comma Gail and the other organizations were very often they were journalists through they were lawyers or they had see. In your positions in the police force and a lot of these are rank and file members would have been laborers or unskilled. Workers now Chicago if you were arriving in Chicago as an unskilled labor. You certainly needed a job and you wouldn't have been long in Chicago before somebody would suggest that joining Tom Gale. What would it was way forward to getting a job there into terms of raising money. They got under the group. Sweetie did raise a loss of money through their picnics to the same path, dictate parades and that money will run through membership. You have to pay a sub to become a member and he would pay a weekly at night as well, and that money was used to pay for it.

Campaigns to achieve irish freedom, so the attraction really for many people was the job over Irish freedom and they put that first freedom was very much secondary affair, This push for irony, irish independence, Really had- and you Nickel in your book, some major events that really helped ignite the population and rally the population in a certain concerted effort. Finally, and including you talk about Td Sullivans, God save Ireland, which became basically the national Phantom four for practicality, and you talk about the summer. Indian prisoners that were given amnesty and- and you talked about the Irish Republican Brotherhood and devoid Donovan Rosa when we

pick behind his back for thirty five days- tell us about a couple of these events that really helped to shape this movement it will not get truly did they required. I found some great big set visuals to to attract attention. I in the early 1870s there was an amnesty, british and irish jails, where, quite in number of men have been arrested and tried and found guilty of treasonable offences. So they were found guilty of membership of the fenian organization and they were summer I am guilty of plotting to to bomb a number of places and they would have served time in british and irish prisons, one of them being a Donovan Rasa who was particularly Bardy treated and though there was John Devoid who became a great anger of Irish America and when oh Donovan Rasa and John Devoy, along with another number of other leaders. They arrive, sort of in triumph, having been released from jail And when they were released from jail, they were, they were told

I have to leave our did permanently or banish Martin forever. So they learned into America and O Donovan and Devoid Kamala boat called the Cuba and they and become part of a gang known as the Cuba five and they were going to see figures they to great fanfare and they become extremely well known, particularly along the eastern seaboard, and the tracks, a lot of attention, a lot of new members and then the other big thing that attracted a lot of attention and you members within the maids eighteen seventies, with the kids how to rescue that could help. It was a whaling ship that was bought by the in organization- and it was Keter dates and sent from Maine Australia and the purpose of it going to remain to Australia was not on a whaling mission, but it was going to Fremantle in West Australia which was a penal, Colonel Colonie at the time, and the idea was that it would rescue five fenian prison.

I'm not feeling fenian Colonie and bring them back and Triumph to America. Now that sounds like it leaky bunkers plan in the mid 1870s. If no way of communication, you don't know how long ships going to take. You know the ship is ever going to even make it there, so it seems like a ridiculously expense and futile. But the thing is that it takes a year for the ship to get to Fremantle, and they do manage to get these five union printers and they achieve their escape and they sail back to New York. And they are greeted in triumph and the mayor of New York comes down and welcomed come to New York and in Dublin and Cork in Ireland, they've candle, sections to say how wonderful this is, and that brings with it huge

bridge of new members, to defeat in organization, Comma Gail, and it brings with it money 'cause, the more members you have, the more money you have coming into the coffers, so they have a number of those sort of very. It was important propaganda victories which helps both sure the numbers in the United States and this really does like you mention a huge surgeon in members result, but all including two very of horse main characters in this story. Alexander Sullivan and Patrick Cronin joined right about that time. So, let's talk about first Alexander Sullivan. Who is he before we get to who is Doctor Patrick Cronin,. Alexander Sullivan was an irish American, and he had a very checkered career. He is

a very interesting individual, in the sense that he has a number of different and very important for the facets to his life. He become involved in Irish Republican ISM in eighteen, eighteen made 1870s after the triumph of the catalpa, but before that he had a number of different careers. So he was a respectable businessman in some ways he owned a shoe store in Detroit that you store had a mysterious where that burned to the ground, and he was suspected of arson. Then he flagged Detroit before the trial could happen and he ended up having to the southern states where he became a tax collector. He became a newspaper owner. He ended up back here, Chicago where he was a journalist for short period. He City officials, and he was a postmaster at one point- and then eventually qualified as a lawyer, an old

during all this period. He was involved in american politics, not irish politics, so he was abolitionist? At one point he was a member of the Republican Party. He was a democrat at another point: hey was a gambler at a later point and he had all of these have a myriad of different careers. Before reading he came to irish republicanism in the MID eighteen seventies and any very quickly established and so for the key figure in republicanism, both in the United States and very specifically in Chicago you talk about avoiding scandal or overcoming at you, talk Michael about an actual my more serious case. Tell us about the most serious charge duty over came in Chicago. Well,

he when he moved to Chicago. He first worked as a journalist and then attended law school good. It was while he was qualifying as a lawyer that, and he balls- and I suppose the first thing that brought him to to a lot of people's attention. His wife was a school teacher, Margaret Sullivan, who had also left The position of school teacher become a journalist and she went on to become a very well known journalist, but she remained involved in education masters in Chicago and asked one significant me saying it by the Board of Education in Chicago. It was a. That a rumor had circulated to say that she was using undue influence with the mare at in order to have certain catholic schools established and when Alexander Sullivan heard stuff her on there had been until today, he

discovered who had made these comments and he went to this model types The man who made these comments among cosponsors Hanford, who was a school principle in the Chicago area, and he went to this man ties with his wife and there was an old Haitian sort of a shot, the man dead and two trials. He was tried twice for the murder of Francis Hanford. On the first occasion they couldn't the jury, and come to a conclusion on the second occasion, he was acquitted, though? It's very clear for, evidence that we can see. Now that did you read that DR to find in his favor. So it was in many ways an inauspicious start to his career in journalism and in Lowell in Chicago, but he, the weather, storm in the way that he weathered almost every other storm. Now tell us about Doctor Cronin

Doctor Gordon. We know a lot less about than we do about Alexander Sullivan and uh. Certainly one of the challenges of writing a book based on a secret society in that they don't have huge records, but Patrick Henry Cronan was born in Ireland. He was born in a place called Bush event in county cork and they sort of science of the country and he along with the rest of his family like many many others. Emma grace is from Arlington one thousand eight hundred and forty seven, which was known as black seven, it was the worst year, the irish famine and they traveled around quite a bit. They didn't settle for a number of years. I have been adventure, they settled in Canada. Bank Ronan had finished his schooling, he returned to the United States, and then he had a number of he started off in the mining regions of Pennsylvania and he ended up

in St Louis MO, where he worked in a number of not particularly impressive jobs, but he eventually got a sponsorship from a timber merchant who spawns his way through medical school and he qualified the medical medical doctor in Louis Louis, and he there there nickel doctor until one thousand eight hundred and eighty two, when He moved to Chicago and took up a position as a doctor in Cook County hospital, but position he held for quite a short period because he decided he wanted to to be a doctor to the primary to an irish community, so we said into the private practice and had to private surgeries in in Chicago itself. Where are Most of his patients were Where are you. How did Alexander Sullivan get involved in and how much did he get involved in this clan mcgale? It

he threw himself with great enthusiasm and into coming as soon as the joined us. Very rapidly roses ranks was very smart money for your ticket He spoke very well and people either love him or hated him, and so he had a huge sort of coterie of very, very firm followers, so He joins in the MID eighteen 17th and by one thousand eight hundred and eighty one when there's a convention Planigale Convention in Chicago he essentially by one thousand eight hundred and eighty one. He essentially is in charge of Planigale, not just in Chicago but in the United States, he's not just in charge of Karna Gail he's old! involved in constitutional nationalism, so he Aaron in the lands leak in America, which is a common, more of a constitutional. It was. It was his dedication to using force two about an irish republic. So he

how to finger kind of in every possible pie and buy One thousand eight hundred and eighty one he's a meter, what became known as the triangle. The triangle was kind again and they were called the triangle because he signed any Internal sort that would go that and go round rather signing with his own name, because it was to get down to find peace. Just a symbol which is the symbol, is the triangle. When you talk about his involvement with the clan to heat, the a lot of changes. Significant changes as you right in the structure of the client organization executive community was reduced from eighteen members to five and the main of the revolutionary directory our which coordinated the clan in the irish Republican. Brotherhood Polisy was altered as well. Um tell us about a little bit more about the violent or the the faction that we

planning and resorting or talking and discussing. Such things as using dynamite and violence in its approach. No that's I think they did reviews. So it's it the make up of of this or leadership of Planigale. In it. Reducing the number of people who were at the helm. They also there was one of the key things to see these organizations was that they would, if say what was meant to happen was that in America they would raise the money and the sister organization in art and will be the one to decide on the policy because they were on the ground and they knew what was happening. That Alexander Sober became increasingly frustrated with the Irish Republicans and an ardent he felt that they were too slow to act. Thank well that they were raising all the money and that nothing was happening. In art and or in Britain, and so he

Determined that they would just ignore the leadership of irish republicanism, who was based in ardent and the day themselves, would run what he called an under. There called dynamite war. So he wasn't think of this, in fact, had been earlier period for this. It also been used, but this was. A very on papers at very well timed campaign, and the idea was that you train young Irish Americans in the dynamite, which wasn't difficult because many of them were using dynamite. I am in the building up right away is an in mining, so they already knew how to do that and that they would be sent from America to Britain and see plan was that they were then blow up a series of targets. Most of these targets in London. So they would blow up strategic or not. The targets are high profile targets, so they would blow up things like the Tower of London, London Bridge.

Is the Parliament Scott and yard some tube stations and the what generation enormous amount of attention and it would also generate an enormous out of fear so that the british partners will be forced to discuss the irish question. This wasn't a university acted plan. There were a number of reasons why it wasn't at one was at some of those in favor of using force did not want to risk lives and so in favor of using fourth only in places where there wouldn't be casualties, human casualties They felt it was very risky to attack things like M two stations to presume that you wouldn't injure or kill at civilians, and the second reason that some people proposed to it is that there was some progress being made in terms as a whole will sergeant which wasn't going to be in the public, but it would give the art in stock apartments and

it was believed that any chance that aren't hard getting home rule, which is certainly a step towards freedom, would be damaged setting by setting off these bombs, and so that began a very serious split within the clown. With one group on the side of Alexander Sullivan, favor of this dynamite campaign and another group on side of John Devoy, who was one of the leaders and also there Patrick Henry Crowland, the doctor in Chicago who really disagreed with this Dynamite Warren, the Dynamite WAR went ahead and fifteen bar Missions were sent they were all unsuccessful, so did british authorities. The secret service knew about them and, in many cases, The men were arrested before they got to plant their bombs anywhere, so it wasn't a successful campaign, but even before it had failed, there were issues to do with agreement over the policy, why did the an PH

own and disagree with the use of dynamite, it I'm assuming they weren't opposed to weren't use to force in itself, but they didn't think the timing was right. They didn't like the idea of the organization in America over ruling the organization and and they felt that those in art or to making decisions, because they were much closer. What was going on and they they understood the nuances of politics, better and in the United States, would do so. They they didn't like get over ruling. They didn't think that the targets that were being chosen were well chosen. They thought there was going to be too high a chance of there civilian casualties. Are they taught the timing of it with all along? So for many reasons, they opposed Sullivans plans. The idea that or the fact that.

The dynamite missions were interrupted or intercepted again. Is into the idea of the spies and informers. Is that what Alexander Sullivan and his cohorts really chalk this up to that they needed to rain in the informers in the spies within the organization, not really a nazi very odd, because most irish secret societies had always had an issue and a problem with informers, and the strange thing about this is that they had so many failed nations and nobody really began to talk about it. There must be an informer. In a way that you would imagine that it would have been much more thought of right. So much more talked that they would have been assumption that there were so there worth buying new form is that something that later become becomes an issue but at the time with all these missions were failing. I certainly not come across any

many letters where somebody says there must be, we couldn't talk, just be on every time, somebody must be giving this information at no point do bring, that period does not seem to be the case. They later talk about how they must have been despite, but they don't do but the actual time, which is strange because I receive it survive the devil's site by five in the past. Now, let's talk about Ph Cronin and which persons in the clan, the gale. In the split or otherwise that were supportive all his idea or where, when did he get the idea that Sullivan and his cohorts were, channeling money or funneling money to their own use, when when did he make that realization and how and tell us about that? Well, he

came to the conclusion in the MID 1880s and one thousand eight hundred and eighty five, and he came to this conclusion- Azara Radio dot sale, dynamite campaign because because I like out of my failed because a number of men have been arrested and imprisoned. There- was a campaign state to raise money specifically to look after the families the dead or the imprisoned dynamiters. So many of the Budweiser. Why so? Many of them are children, and so this camp began and it raised a lot of money because people wanted to found those on these to be looked after, but the problem is they were gone and in fact there are number of measures from the widow of one particular at was Markie Lomas me who had been killed while serving his bomb saying she had a number of children- they had no money and that they really needed money. This prompted Cronan too,

what happens to the money, and he found a paper trail which indicated that a bank One hundred thousand dollars had been funneled into the private. Of Alexander Sullivan. I bought stock on board of trade in Chicago. Under that money had been completely disappeared and the money had not because of an adult emoji disappeared with anything to do with the stock and dot he had been a bad investment and the value of this stock that he bought had completely collapsed. But the fact was that he had taken that money put in his private bank account and That's just that! He claimed that he invested it for on the Galen, that's the organization with benefits from whatever advance or what

increase in value he made. That seems unlikely to a large extent, but as soon as crowded decide. So this he and it really confirms what had previously thought. He believes that Alexander Sullivan was The professional patriots by It was a huge insult to call someone a professional patriot, a professional patriots, implement that you were interested in irish freedom, but only for what you could get faceless so for his old advancement in America, and not actually for irish freedom in itself, and but he Cronan firmly believed that Alexander Sullivan was his professional patriot that he really wasn't dedicated to aren't, but he was dedicated to himself and that Saturn train, I suppose a number of things that would ultima. To well definitely would need to increment death. How did he go about

once he had this realization and recognition what did do, who did he rallies work from and what was the extent of his criticism in terms of the public arena. Well, he began so he began by. Telling other members of the secret design so it remained an internal matter and that became known flags and sold them because the Chicago it's a big city the irish community with in Chicago and the radical irish clergy is quite a small community, so he was then charged with treason for making accusations against the leader Planigale, and a The trial was held with call the gate itself and he was treason for making these accusations and he was found guilty of treason and he was expelled the gale as soon as you fix

from county jail? He begins to bring his accusations to a much wider audience. So essentially, he'll talk to the, using more broadly. Not just those who remember This society and he begins to talk to journalists, so you see appearing in newspapers in Chicago papers, particularly motor, about not being well within the irish community in Chicago and Patrick Henry Crow and making a number of allegations so dark, quite slow, but the a growing awareness within hi go dot who is quite high high profile. Individuals are high profile lawyer, an with well known that accusations be leveled against him and Sullivan. Is Very very unhappy that his reputation has been tarnished in this way. What is Ph H, Cronin's criticism, ACT in Ireland, Britain and with the

public in America? The Irish. Citizenry at- it has no impact. His criticism has no impact in Orland or in Britain. Doctrine system is not pick But in fact it's like so many of these stories, if he hadn't been killed. Stan. I think that's really would have died a death, but the fact that he dies makes it an international story. So what he's alive saying these things? It's not it's not going with her tonight Chicago So if you went to New York and spoke to Irish Americans in New York, they would probably not have heard of Krogen, but as soon as he is dead nobody had heard of him- and everybody knows the story, so it is like so much the other cases of murder. It's once the person has been killed. They suddenly become whatever name whatever I'm interested in or whatever they've been involved. In suddenly be, headline news, but up until his death, his camp,

was restricted, largely do to Chicago what are a couple important events prior to his before we talk about his murder and the just prior to that. The mystery of the missing Ph Cronin. So let's talk about just the cup events Pryor that work at list, I would say that that led to his murder, well what does a couple of things. I think I bring it all to head because it's kind of gay was so split. This better gone on for more than three years at this point, pictures of the Comsat Diana that we really need to essentially closes it that Sarah dirty linen in a very enclosed environment. Let's investigate whether enough sort of 'em took that hundred thousand, so we have

eight a meeting which will take place in New York. I would to bring everybody together, including Cronin and some of them, and we will yes traction on ice and we will then great from that United whatever it that finds. We were still emerge from that United and so that, except they don't emerge united this trial of Sullivan and his investigation to Sullivan is very much for dinner, location and Sullivan ends up being cleared by any accusations of wrongdoing, but under. Woman is not happy with this. So, instead of having agreed that everything will be fine. Assuming that all sort of shake hands and if they don't go their separate ways that doesn't happen. He return Chicago from New York and he's up through the adamant that he's going continue this campaign against at the gentleman that, at the same time,

there are things happening in London that do have an impact on what happened in Chicago. At the same time as the trial of Sullivan and Cronin, all of accusations are taking place in New York, though they think the Parnell Commission taking place in London, L Commission with a sort of a trial of Charles Stewart Parnell who The leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party, so it constitutional political party, had been accusations. Leveled against part He had associates in America determined to use force if those links could be proven. That would really damage Parnell standing as a parliamentarian. And so a lot of those people he was supposed to have known and associated with where people like Alexander Sullivan and John Deboy. So while there's one thing happening in New York and, ultimately in Chicago there's. This second case taking place in London.

And where the two meats is in February of eighteen, eighty nine when a surprise witness takes the stand in the calculation in London, and he turns up he's traveled all the way from America. He turned up but he's a very elegant, looking gentleman with the proper waxed mustache and he takes the stand and he announces that he is his name. Is Thomas Beach but for twenty five years he's been in America or with their name That is a. This is only the Koran that he's pretended to be a frenchman for twenty five years. I forgot cordier century this Frenchman from this one, masquerading as a Frenchman has been a spy and he's been. Buy in the pay of the british secret service and he, We can prove he says these links between Alexander Sullivan and Charles Stewart Parnell, which would obviously seriously damage at Parnell? Now he.

These are devastating revelations. He'd never been suspected of being a spy. He extremely close friend of Alexander Sullivan and during his testimony he was alleged to have suggested that there were other spies in Chicago you didn't like Cronan thought Mahar. This is it he must be there buy something that made no sense at all because to be a spy. You need to be close to the leadership and in fact, for eh I think Ronan had done had pushed himself as far away is. Leadership, but people wanted to condemn so People wanted to condemn Pro then, and this was how they were going to do it, and so rumors began to circulate in Chicago that not only was liquor on a spy, but out it was crowded and once rumors began to circulate that he was a spotlight century Tuesdays days were numbered. Well our audience about what camp Twenty was

in terms of its relation to clan to Gail and who was it this important to camp twenty important too yeah come twenty is very important to each of the, in the way in which the kinda Galewood organized at you, joy to camp than your competitor, particular number so camped. When He was one of the camps in Chicago. I need to come to had a pretty limited number of members and you were supposed to really so. This doesn't work we'd be in the our species of people knew everybody you were supposed to. I love. You know the p, within your camp, so that secrets would remain secret now camp, twenty, become static, founder, Alexander Sullivan, was a member of, and there were a number of other men? There were two twenty five members of come twenty, who were all very loyal to Alexander Sullivan, because he was

He wasn't the leader of their camp man called John F bags, was it was known as the senior guardian, but despite not being the officially He really was in charge of camp twenty, and that was the camp that was, most oil too, Alexander Sullivan. Now you see the he was. Basically label day spy. As of February of as a confluence of events occured. So tell us about the plan to murder, Ph Cronan. Well, the plan was hatched soon after liquor, or beach depending on already uses real name or is Edius after he gay, leave his evidence, and there is evidence that a number of men came together and decided that the best thing to do with Cronan

love to have him killed, and so they plus they have a number of plots, not all of which are put into fourth, the kroner release both with in day in begins to carry a gun. Around with them, and he also, he called out on a number of kind of fake medical emergencies to vacant plots. So he is very conscious that There are people who have not his best interests at heart, but this group who conspire to to take pronator the picture ultimately what they do. Is they they rent a cottage in the north of Chicago in what is now a suburb called Lakeview, but actually, in eighty nine was a separate jurisdiction. It was a separate city and doesn't get brought into Chicago until later in eighteen, eighty nine As part of an annexation, so they hire this. They read a coverage from swedish couple, called the Carlson's

and they they rented at using aliases, and they say that for a for a particular are moving, I think from Baltimore and are going to move and the never made a and they also establish a connection with Cronin and he thinks it's an innocent connection he approached by a man called Patrick O'Sullivan,. Is there relation to log on to some owns a nice house, and I sizes, do very well in the summer when Chicago very heartily. Essentially, they go round and they sell ice to both individuals and to businesses, and they travel around and they could chunks of ice off the back of a Larry and make salads so that people can their food from going off and he code and it's during the summer months, when I'm busiest Would you be my doctor on call and I will pay you a retainer and monthly retainer for this business

If I have an employee who gets injured, cutting ice would you attend him and Krones yes and he's only sort of method is making sure that he's not called out in the fourth call is he says I will only attend if whoever comes to call for me bring the copy of your business cards. So I know it's a legitimate Carlos so that's agreed and that the two men go on their way. But it is part of the conspiracy and so on the evening of the fourth of May one thousand, eight hundred and eighty nine to the knock on kroners door at his surgery. And a very makes young mound. Is there saying there's been an accident? There's been an accident, he presents a card to Croton from from Patrick O'Sullivan's ice types and Cronan packs medical case hops in the boogie the horse, that's waiting inside and disappears that he's Racine alive again.

Now. How does rumor of the story yet that Cronin it disappears in likely took off the Canada. Where does that rumor come from emanate from well it that's one of a number of rumors. What happens? Cronin disappears out Saturday night and he doesn't return until the next morning, landlords and friends at our concerts, because it's either character, and so they go to they go to three people or three organizations to go to the police. They go to the Pinkertons Detective Agency and they go by newspapers and state, ploy pinkertons themselves, look for him. They tell the police that there that he's been murdered and they give them the back. I think he would be murdered. I'm a cow state needs, they have a lot of connections a lot of of kroner friends. These paper men, so they were able to get this story in the press but Alexander when is married to

very well known Jonah, so he to an his sort of those putting forward his side also have access to the press so gross there's nobody or anything found. So over two weeks the press run with what sorts of stories. Firstly, they say that he'd run away because he was having an affair with one of his patients and that's the husband had found out. So we have to skip time hello. There is that he was performing illegal abortions and what had gone wrong. So you have to skip times. I did about it comes forward and says that he murdered cronan. He says he says that he had a dream for Queen Victoria, told him to murder. Cronan and that he hired for italian briggins and gave them cook this. Is they killed cronan and that my end up in a mental asylum by the end of the year. And then there's a rumor that he left home It is going to turn up in London and because yeah, give evidence, just as on The Koran had done

the final rumor is that he can't Canada that he just had enough of all the pressure and he can't I'm not in the way, even to surprise 'cause, that's very most of his family or settled and in fact, a reporter the canadian paper says he needs Cronin and he could The whole interview Acrona, which is published in the Chicago papers, where the full interview saying yes when I got fed up this is I couldn't function as a doctor who is easier to leave and settle in Toronto? And that's what I'm going to do on federal this irish nonsense and that's published as an interview. So will tor interference, but that's the mower most, I suppose, seems the most often and the one that makes no sense. But it's not a course at, You say that all speculation is finally Qua on the afternoon of May 22nd, Employees of the Board of Public works where sent best a putrid smell meeting.

The storm sewer at the corner of foster and Broadway and they looked through the art gates and they notice something blocking the sewer entrance so tell us what they found. Why well. They they initially thought they found a dog. The body of a dog had fallen into the sewer when they went to the at the body and they realized actually wasn't another animal. It wasn't a dog at all. It was a human when they pulled the eyes of the sewer. They they but they, but they immediately or went be the body the body of president and it was. He was two. And the only thing he had have left on him was at holy metal that metal that catholic Self as a protection against heart, which is clearly not done him any but the tool, and it was.

Right here from even though he obviously was quite badly decayed from having been and in the sewer for two weeks, it was very clear that he'd been beaten very briefly around the head or being dumped in the sewer and so that put paid to any all of the rumors that he disappeared Canada or run away, here, the bead mat with a particular brutal end. Now he was disfigured just from the the decomposition and and does that bloating, and- and so he had also been hit about the heads, like you say what they found was- weapons like which would connect them. I to this ice house. What were the weapons that they disk were used in the attack, well. They never actually found the weapon that that that was used. What they assumed it would have been a nice pic

m and that he didn't say it around the head with an ice pick. I think he was probably actually talked with it with a chisel and birth date they very quickly began to take. This is the the ice has of Patrick Sullivan and, and that leads them quite quickly to a vacant tanks. Just beside the ice house at which it was owned by this swedish family called Carlson's when they knocked on their door and date Carlson. It crosses the methods that they knew. That something bad has happened in the house because when their tenant disappeared they went into the house and they notice it was covered in blood stains and that something unclear What happened, but they didn't report is because they felt that if they reported us, they'd never be able to rent the high thanks again If it became known that some some some murderer taking place there or something really dreadful, that happens

and so very quickly the police were able to find the of the crime. If not, actually the weapon used there were it rocking chair in a number of things that were completely had been destroyed by the the brutality of the attack on Grogan. They also discovered a bloodstained trunk on Montrose and Broadway so tell us a little bit about that discovery. Yes, they find that trunk actually, two weeks before they pay, isn't just after crown and disappeared, and it was a blood same trunk that had clearly been thrown in the ditch and it had quite a lot of cotton with that was also blood and some human hair and police who really terribly interested in there were two police forces kind at trying to invent the gate, and neither of them were particularly committed. So

They had dismissed that because there was nobody, they dismissed it as not relevant, but it soon, as Cronan's body was found. They put two and two together and they decided some? What had happened was he was killed in the hive. His body was then placed in the trunk, and that the trunk was, and the intention was. I think that the trunk would be taken today to Lake Michigan, to the shore of Lake Michigan, to put a border fence on the body in trunk tipped over the ride into Lake Michigan, but for whatever reason happened, the boat didn't meet them, and so, instead they had to improvise. So they put the body in a sewer and then they just dumped and on side. The road but it wasn't until the body was found that they made so they they connected. The dots in terms of of the trunk. Which I found really fascinating with the story is that immediately after

discovery and, and the announcement that Beach Cronin body had been found, the there's a hordes of people that went to the police. Station when in and out of the morgue, we're looking bring through the morgue window to get a site of anybody in the morgue or the body Ann. In the crime scene itself, people, trampled all around that area as well. So anybody think this is a new phenomenon or a recent phenomenon. Not so recent phenomena of people being fascinated by this and. Heading to the scene of the crime yeah. If you KFC right. That was one of the things that really drew me to writing about the cases the public face, the nation waits this murder was. It was incredible and party to do with the newspapers. It's sort of thought period for newspapers are reporting on yeah. The more sensational crimes faster as far as they're concerned, and so

cute, hundreds of columns of newsprint were spent describing the murder and how he was even the police investigation and Europe Hundreds of people turned up. They wanted to see the body when they He was later, was in out the end of Michigan Avenue and you couldn't actually need body when he was sort of put. Right was a closed. Casket entices people s filed past just to see the clothes. These people didn't know what they just knew. The story and today he was buried. You've got forty thousand people lining the streets. Chicago the popular Mission of Chicago about a million at the time for having me relying Michigan Avenue, and it's a lot just funeral since Lincoln Funeral through the city so it's an absolute phenomenal. They fill a holy name cathedral with thousands and more turn. Two union step, oh the train. That takes his body just north of

go to Evanston for burial more, up to watch the barrier. I mean it's complete phenomenon for a man that most of these people did not know had never heard of before and at spa nothing to do with things like the dime museums in Chicago. They were really cool to have waxworks they'd waxworks of the dead body and as soon as there's suspects arrested, they've got waxworks of the suspects so You don't even need to be less first inning in Chicago the huge numbers of people, weren't yeah. It's it's a huge amount, population. But you can still go and see what the body looks like after it came out of the sewer, which is a deeply unpleasant sight. But not only not in the car sing. Cottage newspaperman journalist interfere with the with the crime scene. They bring more blood, they bring ox. Let's and ends the flood and they distribute arrives to make it more gory than it already was and then family of the carlsons, who owns College. Far from not

able to rent this. They can't keep people away, so they open the cottage and you can pay a dime to go to college navigate to around and then you can pay extra time. If you want to take some at blood stained wood way with you as your season here, so is it top two supposed to, imagination in many many ways and dime rules are written at least two dime novels written about this murder, its front page news right across United States Canada in Britain Welsh Language newspaper, New Zealand, it's in Australia had he not been murdered. This story about Alexander taking that money would not be known, but as soon as he said, it because it takes on the whole life of his own b?

or we talk about a little bit more impact of his murder in his funeral and the resultant story. That's now much bigger, as you say, then, if he word should not be murdered. So now it's much different story and much do response from the public, but I found again. Equally incredible. Is this White Chapel club that you refer to stab? by two journalists from the Chicago Herald and eighteen. Eighty nine by the Cronin, murder and Jack the Ripper murders in London and the same, the club is sensational crime rooms. Deck rated with macabre, Bailey from hangings, murders, coffin served as table skulls is lampshades hands cops by Martin Burke, shards of would, like you say, from the Carlson Cottage and bloodstained cotton from the trunk that had Cronin's body And apparently, one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine, it was ethically sound for journalists to collect memorabilia and

as you say, or evidence from cases they covered meant to tamper with the the crimes sometimes and dismiss it as a joke. I found this incredibly fascinating here was a good way to help the club is, is remarkable and something I wanted to go back to and and and look at it again because and did did, did. Premise in many ways almost become the story themselves and the journalism The White Chapel club really do collect all of this memorabilia and He had don't big, it's essentially their drink the table that they use is in the shape of a coffin, as They use schools of lights, it's completely bonkers and the building was demolished. So there's no kind of relics of us, but they were involved in all sorts of of of very bizarre things, and I think in some ways it's it's very representative of the late night

century. I am, and you can see it a given high the are and and Jack the ripper, obviously they were murder that took place in in London, send the same time with the code in murder, it's referenced all of the time in the press, air bag I have the pro murder has echoes of Jack Tripper, though it really doesn't. But but people are quick to make some of those those connections and I think that in Chicago at the newspaper is certainly took a certain So pleasure is the wrong word, but they were. They were keen to show so that they have had had a mer yeah. That was just as fascinating as those that were taking place in London. They also talk about, will analyze it a little bit later, as you do about whether the execution was aided by the journalists, but that was the tone they were obviously in favor of prosecution, so tell us equally fascinating is how

they had in fine a jury in in this. Two months jury selection. So you talk about. The longest or the biggest jury, so our longest jury selection process? In? U S judicial history so tell us a little bit about that process and how difficult it was yeah at the time it was the longest. I'm not sure What is the longest today to to find twelve lennix was the closest I Listen to the Oj Simpson trial in terms of just the amount of attention it had, and one of the reasons that has that level of attention is that they eventually Tr by five men or five men are accused of murder. One of those and the reasons the press were so interested. One of the man that was charged with them uncle Daniel Cox and and Oakland had been the chief detective

charged with finding Crowden when he went missing, and so if newspaper mound starts just gold Is that the money was meant to find the missing man turns out to be the man accused of murder. As for papers, this is just amazing, so there's hardly any in Chicago who haven't read old papers and so when If people are called her potential jurors, then there are one of the first questions is You have an opinion on the case and they go absolutely. They should hang and then they get dismissed because I'm clearly their biased, and so it takes the best part of two months before they can find twelve men who don't say that they don't have an opinion and and DAS yeah, then they want to try and get up and running it. It doesn't take particularly long to get through the evidence. Is that takes longer to pick of men than it does to actually have the trial. What you write about the specter of-

bribery. In terms of the jurors so tell us Happens or the specter of it? Yes, Chicago, had a long tradition of jury bribing and. There were a number of alleged attempts for to bribe jurors, so essential A jury juror would be bride to find in favor of the defendants one case and those who put in the pocket of what your with a necktie and but he was told in a note if he was going to kind of vote on behalf of the defendants, he was to wear it a dog electrolytes the next day, if money would come his way. Now. In that case, though, that tour went to the state's attorney and and said this is what's happening and attempts to bribe I am and not something that was very often the case in Chicago in the nineteen century and I'm

well beyond. I think now you have. The did. This defense try to split up or Sullivan from bags and Burke and Coughlin, and. And this was a conspiracy to murder trial- there's no eyewitness, so they have to deal with some circumstantial evidence. But what I again was interesting and unusual. Is that the magnitude of the prosecution they brought in private attorneys to be able do this as well, rather than just relying so tell us about that which is true. Yeah did the big. Terms lined up for up for the trial, I mean in Alexander, so Alexander is never actually at with the murder. But everyone who charged is a member of camp twenty and it becomes clear that sort of actually order the murder, but he was it was it was the murder took place because they thought he wanted Cronin dead so

he doesn't actually or the murder himself and in fact the murder how heavy toll, but because of the court of public opinion convicts Sullivan. But in order to, I suppose, fix the others, the state's attorney and those who are supportive of quotas. They wage an enormous financial campaign. So not only is the state's attorney Who would normally just be the prosecutor. There is about no very senior attorneys who are part of the prosecution and defense are also very well represented each one of those men who is in charge in there five men charged have their own individual attorneys. And these are not wealthy man. So somebody's pay so for those he'd earned, those men were not men who could have afforded to have attorney themselves powerful, one of them bags. Probably if he was an attorney himself, but the rest of them would not have been to afford significantly

representation. So it is that's why I think the mention it's going to the Oj Simpson case. These are the because Chicago can put together in terms of teams. Sure. Now, you say October 23rd, the trial begins again fascinate. Five thousand people want to attend this and get into a room that holds a couple hundred. And and and what's interesting to is the newspapers are our transcripts of the trial So again, and they were also you're also labeling the calling of terming Iceman O'Sullivan. Yes, right. I mean the papers, one thousand people turned first day. Hundreds of people turned up every single day. It's always packed eight, it's one of the first times that the new Papers come together and they pay for stenographers or several newspapers. You agree, they will pay for for trial transcripts as it

every team in some ways, even though they're actually seeing competition with each other for sales. So the local color pieces so so Sullivan so knows the ice man because he owns the ice hive. And the other the key phosphate. We were done Cochran because he was a detective, so get a huge amount of attention page, an page after page in the newspapers cover On a daily basis, and could absolutely the story of its time. There's a lot of claims by and and a lot of, and by the media itself, especially the Tribune so tell us both the the claim or anyone's claim that they were the people that crack this case at the reporters were involved because please- Explain the situation with the police at that time and their loyalties. It would seem to this

this investigation and the, Inter parents in this so tell us about that dynamic, but they they police in Chicago Disproportionately irish about half of the police force are made up of of Irishman, and the Irish made up about seventeen percent of the population. So far more irish were in the police for some sort of you would be expecting. He expect. Maybe twenty percent of the police force to be irish but in fact half of three force there? Not all of those were involved in Karner Gail, but quite a lot work, and so there needed press suggested that a lot of the police force who had a vested interest in this case not coming for I and the newspapers probably, Tiles on having kind of discovered a lot of the clues and having brought that to the police, now that some of that they didn't discover

all of it. But they certainly laid claim to having discovered a lot of this, and but they were lights there were. There were definitely elements within the police force, but didn't want this trial for this case to go ahead. And there certainly were things that were discovered by the journalists that hadn't been discovered by the police. So I get in some ways. I suppose it was a combined, a combined effort, but the newspaper certainly their own trumpet as much as they could tell us about Pat Dean. And the evidence that he provided, that link to solid Burke to the murder. Yeah. Well, he was he owned, a livery stable. He rented out horses and buggies, and he he he was the case sort of the developments progressed. He recognized the description of the horse and buggy as being our horses, he owned and he

he recalled that that no Cochran had books that horse and buggy for the night the krona disappeared. So he went to the police and uh ported and Coughlin's involvement in the police initially dismissed him and said they weren't intro. It's impurities had nothing to do with Cochran uneventfully died and took that hire and went to. Morse near police officials who took him seriously- and that was really the link that brought the detective into the murder investigation. Now you also talk about the importance of Edward Spellman and his visit to Chicago and camped Money so explain that to us well. He was a senior figure in income Gail and he had been asked at one wait for his service to take action against Kroger's, this is being to Dave suggested in Latin

is that if he didn't take action, something big people couldn't be responsible for what they did and he said well, look there's nothing. Just let let it go so he didn't Acronis disappearance, but it's in a code in which is going to be murdered. Stalin did to step in and go to come twenty. It's eight am you need to destroy any evidence but there might be that might link you to this murder so most of the records. In fact, a lot of the records come twenty were burnt or destroyed in some way when Spellman Abbott is it Chicago. Now, it's interesting there's, there's no eye witnesses Mostly, but there's one hundred and ninety witnesses, everything from testifying, but the meetings at camp twenty there was Conklin and Frank Scanlon testified that that, then felt his life in danger: uh tell us about the most important. In your mind, important. No, the most important event

at the trial, the most pivotal point in that trial? Well, I thought, I think they see, that the evidence given by a is really key and because he All of the men together I think his evidence is probably the most important. The rest, I think, build up a very a picture of the involvement of many of the others, but his is a crucial one. I think that brings all of the man who were accused into the same circle and places places in there. But I think the average People like the Carlson to own because age I have and they were able to identify and did not. He would have Burke who rented the cottage from them. They could identify him. They were able. To prove that to Sullivan and Brooke knew each other. So I think the mixture of the carlsons and diner are particularly important. So tell us why,

happens. Ultimately, in terms of the mean it's interesting, the last summation by long But tell us about how it the trial conclude and sort of the result in terms of public sentiment. Well, the public fully expected that the men would be found guilty and that they would be executed, though there's very little the reef there is something because there were very few executions in in Chicago at the time. Since I'm, and so what ultimately happens is that one of them is acquitted John Baggs, who was the senior guardian and leader of of come twenty. He was acquitted of of being involved in the conspiracy, but three of them were find guilty of murder, but they were not sentenced to death. They were sent.

To life in prison and the reason they were incentive to is because to sentence somebody to death. You have to have all twelve members of the jury to agree at that sentence and in this case. Only eleven members of the jury would agree. A death sentence and the 12th man was opposed to the death sentence in Prince didn't matter anyway, he was he not in favor of the death sentence, so the public were disappointed. I think they. They were baying for blood and were disappointed that they didn't get their executions. But there were a three man found guilty and three men sentence to life in prison. Again. What's most fascinating? Is the treatment of that one juror and derided. He was by the tell us about that He is essentially hounded out of Chicago as a result, because eight years Sloan who he is he's now Coco Mister kover. He is it

century, hounded out of Chicago have to put his house on sale within a month because of threats to the lose life. To the lives of his family members? Now, what's the effect of this Trial on the clan Na Gael, basically, it's dirty linen was washed in public and membership of the clan is destroyed. The position on Alexander Sullivan is destroyed. The clown. Never recover is really from from this public kind of revel and so it is huge repercussions for from the gal, but it also has huge repercussions for the police force in Chicago. A number of men were sacked. You were police officers because they were deemed to in Pacific, too comma Gail? They entire t reorganize how the system works, and worked in Chicago, so

and there were questions raised by jury bribing and the judiciary, so there were all sorts of kind of repercussions for that go beyond just the irish community in Chicago that really spread much further afield in terms of that lucrative fund raising and that money and that it's political organization, the Irish Republican Brotherhood and nationalism itself. What was it the fact this trial well the the real impact is that money is not raised in irish republicanism relied very heavily on the dollar. And on money raised in America to fund activity in Ireland and Britain and that stops and that that I think it is very is very important and it doesn't really start again well into the twentieth century, so it has massive repercussions and in that sense, that that sort of money that people were expecting to be

back for these organizations are not Townsend back. For more than a generation. Stop continues again, I found this fascinating. To is that you say the camp twenty there was involved in. All of this is actually, if I'm not miss correct expanded and John begs, the person who was acquitted is elec. It's senior guardian. Yes, that's true. They reassemble themselves almost to me. Yeah then he becomes the leader again so if they end up not really having any impact, they are not able. To do very much but they do reassemble almost immediately. The effect of this trial also on just touched on but the sense. Limit of the public, the irish community in America. What was its effect,

ascentia. It brought to light an issue that that a lot of Americans felt about the Irish it community in This idea of a joule loyalty or hyphenated identity was brought to the fore and was not very favorably received. So there was What is apprehension in America this idea that the Irish were more loyal to iron and then they to be american, that's an the should be first and foremost, to Erica into the United States, They really should leave the issue of but the old home country behind, and so this idea of hyphenate it was something that was sort of disapproved of, and people began, I think we can really trust the Irish, because that uh

here they kind of keeping one eye on what's happening in ardent. But now there are murders taking place in its name in aid on United States, soil and so that did not go. Very well, particularly those who are anti immigrant, and there were a lot of those who are anti immigrant and in in the United States that theater at the end of the nineteenth century. You speak in your book about, the clan a and and talk of if it was ever reunited, that conquered Coughlin would be cleared outlawed by the eye race. Yes, there was an attempt to reunite, which worked in at night in one thousand nine but The comma Gail that was reunited in one thousand nine hundred would never really had the power that they had before It was interesting that one of the things that united the two groups who had previously been divided was the fact that they would both sides can

and and and turn himself had ended up. He didn't serve a full term in prison and was ultimately released. But he ends up having to go on the run. He dies under an assumed name on a banana plantation in Honduras. So very far, or from any freedom fighting for ardent right, about Alexander Sullivan, what is his fate? Well, he remains in Chicago. He remains a lawyer, but financially he is Not in any position, he doesn't really have very much business his position as the is the preeminent Irishman in Chicago is absolutely gone. He disappeared he's not seen in public. Five years after the football two of eighteen, ninety five, thirty six years after the stay at the murder? and so his role is absolutely diminished. He really

not have any authority at all. So, even though he doesn't have any time he's, an injection is is very much diminished as a result of the murder. I want to thank you very much for coming on in talking about blood runs green. If people are more interested. Obviously, I hope people remote, made it to go and seek out this fantastic book. But if people more interested in contacting you or do you have a website or facebook page that people might be able to Final, more information or look at your other work as well. I do. I have a wordpress blog, which is called. And am O'Brien workers. Brother It's called murder, murder, mayhem and shiny things, so

I have quite a lot of what I'm working on it up on that and I made a contact. Details are on the blog and it would be great to be great to to be in touch with the people, I want to thank you very much for this interview and a fantastic read. Blood runs green, a fascinating story and a trip back, history, Anna fascinating, fascinating time. So I want to thank you very much for coming on in thank you for discussing this book you're very welcome. Thank you very much. Thank you. Have a great evening you bye, bye good.

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