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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening this is your host Dan is asking for the programme to murder the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors of written about them on October, twenty nine

one thousand nine hundred and ninety steeped in luxury, driven by innovation. It's how we do business at Genesis of Willow Grove. It's our mantra, the phrase we can't help, but repeat it's our promise that Genesis of Willow Grove will serve every customer as exquisitely's genesis does steeped in luxury, driven by innovation. Its genesis of Willow, Grove on Easton RD in Willow Grove an online at genesisofwillowgrove dot com hurry in for an offer as exceptional as our vehicles. Ninety seven hooker, Andrea Slick Hendrix is beaten. Naked body was discovered in a row side dish near Stuarts, Ville Indiana, with no leads for police to follow the case eventually went cold, but it wouldn't stay that way. In two thousand and three sadistic sexual predator, Joseph W Brown claimed to have strangled Hendrix with favorite murder weapon, a shoe lace from a woman size. Eight shoe ginger gas away. Fifty

met brown at a gamblers anonymous meeting. She didn't know that when she took up with him she was gambling with her life on August 30th, two thousand round murdered gassway and scattered her body parts across three in Anna counties. For this grisly climb, he would be sentenced to life prison without parole, but it wouldn't be his first time behind bars in nice. One thousand eight hundred and seventy seven Brown had been sentenced to life in prison for kidnapping and armed robbery in nineteen any five he was released, despite the fact that he beating a fellow inmate nearly to death brown later ass it during the next five years. He indulged in a seven state rampage of torture and murder, his victims, female hitchhikers and prostitute. Now doing timing, Wabash Valley, correctional action. Center Brown maintains that he'd murdered no less than thirteen other women. The book tat were profiling. This evening is blood trail with my special guest Rick Reed,

you very much too for agreeing to this interview and welcome to true murder, Rick Reed. Thank you for having me. Thank you much and congratulations on this book. It was written a few years ago and bites fill up an amazing story and a great book re really great red, now, first off fun. Let's give ironic a little bit of the background how you came to be such an integral part of this book. Like I had mentioned in our earlier conversations, there is to be a trend towards a lot of true crime. Authors partnering with a homicide, detectives police officers to get the invaluable information needed necessary to write the book even more effectively than they would normally write the book so tell us our tell audience

who you are what your background is and before we start to talk taking some questions here, asking some questions about the book. Specifically, ok, I've been or was it places, sir, since one thousand nine hundred and eighty I was on the vanderburgh County sheriff's department here in Evansville Indiana six years, and then I went on Evans, Phil City Police and was on for twenty years before I retired went into teaching. It was during that time on the Evansville Police Department that this case came up to my background. Basically, I six years on the county places, the a deputy and into law enforcement and immediately within just a couple of months coming on the police Department Lnm through the detectives office. So I wasn't detectives for about seventeen years and ended up with my last three years, being an internal affairs

most hated position on the police department. Internal affair have to investigate their own. So that's it's a position to be put in where you have to investigate other police officers for suspected or complaints of wrongdoing and the position that puts you in basically as on the outside of everything where the other officers don't like you, the chief of police, doesn't really like you because every time they run across you there's a problem. So it's kind of like being a black cloud. This now this story, when about a about ginger gasaway- and you start the book with talking about ginger, but what words we your position as in the police department at the time that you were investigating the disappearance of ginger,

gas away, but that's not originally what you started with, but the bad checks of Joe Brown. What year was that? And where was that? And what was your position within the police department right? so basically all started for me around two thousand when Joe Brown came to my attention, as somebody was: writing a lot of bad checks, doing what we called kiting with checks between banks that were no good, and at the time I had moved from violent crime, section two white collar crime. We called it uncle fraud unit and I was can primarily with the banks and with that type of crime paper crimes, so that what I was doing it seemed like for some reason in that position, though, I ended up working for five other homicides. While I was in white collar crime unit also say: one thing lead to another money,

sometimes breeds violence. So in this case I was looking at your for several months prior to this incident occurring because he head open several bank accounts and was kiting bad checks from bank to bank to bank and was in about fifty thousand dollars to the banks. At the time we have such a law large number of those type cases coming in that every detective work kind white collar colored. It might be carrying case load of eighty two hundred cases at a time. So you couldn't really focus your attention on one person and go after them unless something merited that kind of attention and his case labor day was coming up and he was here, banks pretty heavy and I put an alert out to all the banks asking that anybody that had any contact with your brown to. Let me know,

because I was going to go ahead and arrest him on several bad check, charges that I had, but the price was when I got a call from one of the banks. It was an old national bank here in town they said been there, but he's been there several hours earlier. They hesitated to call me when they did. They told me. The check that he was trying to pass was check, written on the account of gender gas away off of a fifth third bank. So yet got me anymore. Wanted to try to find out what he was doing with one of ginger gas, always checks that wasn't one that he had normally used. I didn't know he had any connection to her. I thought it was probably stolen Such a large amount and the whole case then began because I tried to find ginger gasaway to confer that she hadn't written him that check. So I could arrest him now at the time when you

the arrest warrant for Joe ground you're. Looking for Joe Brown, what was in your discovery? What did you discover was the background of Joe Brown, ok I'll, basically, what we found about him came about later after we knew that ginger was missing and something was horribly wrong in her situation. We didn't really know at first that and ginger had any kind of connection other than that check, but what I did find out. I went to the bank that issued her checks, the fifth third bank. It was able to talk to them and they said. He had stolen checks from her once before and that she had opened an account for him, Joe Brown Masonry he his own little company and she had set him up, and the bank was able to

tell me that she had actually cashed in her 401K from a job that she had had previously and took about fifty thousand dollars to open an account for him and that those were the bad checks. It was right and he had cleaned that account out and was right having bad checks to other bank. So now I had the connection between Joe and ginger. I knew that she had been supplying him with money that he had stolen from her in the past, and so I a real good reason to go and look for her to get her and file a formal charge against him for this check that he tried to. Yes, we had him on film doing it. Fortunately, when he saw the bank looking at him funny, he grabbed the check and his id card and fled the bank. So we didn't have the check itself, so we needed find her and get information from her to be able to proceed. The way it works. Pretty much here in Evansville

I'm not sure about other agencies. If you have an old case that ceo, two or three days old and you want to make an arrest on it, you have to get an arrest warrant issued. First, if you have something that's current within, say: thirty, six, seventy two hours, if it's that current make it on the on site arrest, which is a warrantless arrest and that's what I was wanting to go forward to just be able to arresting and not have to go to the prosecutor's office and get paid drawn up and go to a judge and get away or to arrest him on some of the old charges. We we thought we would be able to wrap it up very quickly and didn't turn out that way. Now. What I find interesting to is the sum of the talking about this specific law here that this is a certain class, a felony and I'll. Get you to explain to our audience what the class of felony is, but also that what I had asked is it? What kind of

what criminal background did you where you already aware of or artware you already aware of about Joe Brown and then were you aware of in terms of likelihood in terms of sentence that this man would receive if he were actually convicted of these frauds these bad checks? What we had done when this whole have- and it happened so fast, we left her office, send contact. Basically, everybody trying locate, ginger trying to locate Joe, and we really didn't know a whole lot about any other background on him other than that he was writing bad checks. So at that time I had then much of a background check on him as far as old charges are what we would call trip lights and interstate index. That shows you felony charges. Person has all over the United States. I hadn't

under that link, yet because I had so many cases that I was working job way down. The line here is on my list the day that he showed up at old. National bank, so I really didn't, have much of a background on him other than that I knew. If we didn't resting, he was going to continue to write bad checks to the bank, and then we came back to work after Labor day. We'd have one hundred thousand dollars laws or more so we decided to go after him on that. We didn't we find out about his criminal background until probably next day and that's when really delving into his background to find out in person he was and the reason for that was because ginger best was missing and we weren't able to find her and the circumstances arise.

Her not being present in her apartment or in town, began to look suspicious, but it took a while for that to develop. It took a couple of days for that really developed because of things we learned about her about Joe. Even the family thought tat. She might parcel we be off with him gambling someplace, so the fact that he had tried to cash a bad check laws a little bit of its appeal if she was maybe in this with him. So we didn't really know what we were dealing with that point. But after we couldn't locate her for a while, then are looking more suspicious. The only real trouble background we had on him, but it didn't come to light right away. Was that Joe had beaten beating her up at one other time and he very severely, and it was over him taking money from her and she had decided pressure

charges and then changed her mind and it was more or less a domestic violence case at that point where he was ordered to do a community service, but go to domestic violence, classes, anger management, they called and fail. To do that, he didn't go to anger management. The warrant that was issued for was very minor and What said was you know that he had to appear before a judge explain why he didn't go to anger management class. So what would happened if we'd arrested him on that? He would appear in front of a judge and I'm sorry, your honor I'll go tomorrow and they would have let him go so that was really wasn't enough to hold him on. I didn't think you are trying to find out the location of ginger Gasaway, so you can ask her what the details and circumstances were regarding this check it low

it's like, doesn't look good, but you don't know very much information, but in this process you find out gradually the character of ginger, Gasaway and and a little bit of her background, tell us about ginger Gasaway, which you you found initially. She was fifty three years old, but tell us what you found out from friends. Relatives coworkers. What did you? What is the picture that was being drawn about the character of a ginger gassway here? What we want we found during the investigation lead us to believe that she was somebody that was fairly easily led. She was lonely. She was in rather an unhappy marriage. Her and her husband had having some issues, but it was mostly family type issues where he had a little bit of a drinking problem. She had a pulling problem,

so they weren't getting along real well, and that was when Joe came into her life. She met him at a gamblers anonymous meeting, and that was really one of the first things found out about her. She sorry for him. He told her that he had a past little past and that he was trying to overcome it. He was living in a shelter and he needed help, and he pretty much indicated us to that. He had charmed his way into her life, convinced her that he needed help and that she was the one that could do it for him. He can looked at her as a older mother type figure, but he was romantically inclined towards her also and any he more or less took over her life. He started getting into a bank accounts. He moved in with her and

and with her while she was still married to her husband. She had allowed him to come in the house, while her husband had just had open heart surgery. So Joe, we found out from a husband that Joe had been threaten the husband that if he didn't stay out of way, take care of him and he was the husband said. No physical condition to hardly even talk to the guy, much less get in a fight with him so The husband ended up, have to go into town and get a restraining order to have your moved. One Joe was or put out by the sheriff's department and told to move. Then ginger told her husband if you're making him leave I'm going with him. So she left with Joe and file for divorce from judgment her and Joe moved in together. It was kind of port judgments all around she felt like she had a kinship with him because they both had gambling problems, and she was unhappy and Joe made her happy

at least for a while. He was kind of person typical serial killer, where he can maintain a relationship can be very charming. Like TED Bundy you're, someone be very charming for short periods of time, but eventually that face kind of fades away and they become who they really are. They act out there. Dominating controlling violent, He showed her that side. One time too often she continued, though, to work and pay the bills. He can. The gamble spend money and steal from her. She was at one time we knew she was holding two jobs, one Tj Maxx here in Evansville as a forklift operator, and then her second job was working out at the regional airport, and so she was bringing into paychecks and working a lot and Joe

spending all of his time. Gambling a real. I sorry for her that she was unable to detach him. He tried several times to throw him out and would get him out of the house. Maybe even have call the police and he would leave, but he would stalk harass and write letters and promise cry all these type things too his way insinuate back into her life again and with the domestic violence that situation eventually it's easier to give in than it is to continue fighting them and that's what she did she would just give in and let him come back then eventually would be so bad. She would have to kick him out again. Now, let's go back for our audience to. To the background. The early life of Joe Brown, his troubled childhood tell us

how and where Joe Brown grew up and under what conditions are what type of person was Joe Brown as a child and the young adult page? You. In some ways, if you looked at his his childhood, it was much different than anyone else. He had two brothers, he had two sisters. His dad was a bricklayer. Mother was just a housewife that sometimes I took in sewing. Do things like that, We were told that the mother had a drinking problem and prescription medication problem and that the father had an extremely violent temper. Send some of the stories that we heard from witnesses and family members were not very pleasant about the way Joe was raised, but he wasn't the one in family and always had to look at that aspect of it.

He wasn't the only one that was being treated bad, angry father, drunken mother, but he turned the way he did and that's often the case in serial killers. There could be two brothers and one of the assyrian pillar, not both so she here he was raised pretty rough. He it was eight or nine years old. He was being molested by a neighbor boy. That was, I think, around age. Twelve come into the House and Joe had gone to his mother complained and told her that this guy was coming to the house, doing things to him and said this mother protecting him- and this is a story from Joe. Instead of the mother protecting him, she told his father about what was going on and his father just erupted basically accused him of being a homosexual and beating for that.

So Joe said he never forgave his mother. For that that he went to her for help and instead he got a beating and the use continued. Then you know the neighbor continued to go at him and he never really got any help with that. I think for some at that age that was very confusing for him and yep really mess him up as far as his sexuality is identity. What are and he he resisted that pretty much up into this part of his life. Now, where claims that he hates homosexuals and that he wants to kill him etc, but while he was in prison we found out he was having homosexual relations in prison. He had a boyfriend in prison in pinky. But then, on the other hand, he would make these remarks that he wasn't you know, so he was very

confused about it yeah interesting point in the book two is that he said that he had always had horrible teeth, and so he, while he was in prison, he had all of his teeth taken out and then the surprise was that this was also according to your research that benefit to him. Servicing men in prison righty was making money with it to be what to do sexual favors for the other prisoners and that's how he bought things in prison. It was a barter system, basically. You know they don't allow them to smoke in prison, at least here in Indiana, so If you can get your hands on a pack of cigarettes, it's worth gold and they still get stuff like that in there until trading. What he had to things now tell us about just briefly: what were the circumstances

that he landed in jail and what kind of sentence did he get to tell us a little bit about that. In one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven, he he was still a juvenile or one thousand seven hundred and eighteen year at the time he knew of a farmer that lived in the area and he he said had done some work for this guy on occasion on his farm and he needed some money. You wanted to go gambling and he needed money, and so he goes so the guy's house, with a gun threatens a guy and wants money, the guys phone with his wife. He gives him, I think, for five hundred dollars and told you that's all the money he had and Joseph did. You can get more, so he threatened him that he was dead again, the bank he wanted guide to go in the bank cash, your check and give him more money or it was going to him. So Joe Look gets the guy in the car to take him to the bank and

on the way there. Now. This is out in the county out in the cornfields on a farm. Well, they're going down the road. I think the gentleman was driving and just bailed out of the car and rolls away and runs off in the cornfields leaves in the car. So Joe gets scared and takes off with the car and goes to LAS Vegas with the money that he had already got and that's where they caught him was in LAS Vegas, so they charge with battery and snapping an robbery 'cause. I believe he beat a little bit too, and so he was charged with some very serious crimes and he got a life sentence in Indiana Life sentences. Fifty years it's a class, a felony they go by, B, c and d felonies it's a class, a felony. Said the worst and he got a life sentence which is fifty years but you get a day for a day credit for good time. If you dont, create problems,

in prison. You get a day for every day that you're in there right so he would only have to do twenty five years in that case, on a life sentence. So it's kind of deceptive when they say life sentence. It doesn't really mean that sure, at the time they didn't have, I don't believe they had life without parole, they have different, They had life sentence and so forth. Now they have what they call life without parole, and that means you actually do your life. You never get out, so he hands up getting the twenty five years and goes to prison, but five years into his scent. He gets angry with another guy that he claimed was making sexual advances towards him here, and there. I always wondered if it was like a failure to pay or something like that. He he gets one. These industrial can openers, they worked in the kitchen and they have they make. These huge can openers away about three pounds:

it's a square metal bar, that's about a foot and a half long with a screw type thing. On top the handle and like it would be in a cafeteria in a high school or something well, he pulls that out of the table and beats this guy almost to death. It took several prisoners and guards to get him off of the guy. He was going to kill him for that. He only Five years tacked on? I didn't get tacked onto a sentence. It was run concurrent right with the time he was doing. So it was nothing. You know is basically like getting slapped on the hand, probably more paperwork and cost the state, then any inconvenience would all the Joe. So that taught him a lesson hinder the other, thing. Is they give you even though you're supposed to do twenty five years? If you go to search programs, you go to alcoholics anonymous, you take classes.

Did you join church programs any of these kind of things you do you get it no time off to so you can be released as early as like fifteen sixteen years, twenty five year sentence, or fifty year sentence, I should say, so he got out, he went in and seventy seven he got out and twenty five and he should have been released for awhile, but he got out early. As soon as he got out, he started a little rampage and killing women now getting back to ginger gas away and the law of the hunt for her and to get them from information from her, and you have your suspicions that the foul play has has occurred. How do you proceed with ginger gas? way and trying to locate her and what results became known happened to us was we.

Found out where she was living from the bank and we went to her apartment to try to talk to her and it was a note taped to her apartment door. That said it was a note, her daughter. From her daughter to her, that said I'll be over Saturday to help you move, so we, She was in process of moving to another apartment. So we went to the office and found out where she was moving to an. We went to those apartments thinking. Maybe she was over there and she had been there. A couple of earlier made arrangements to rent had picked out an appeal rent an was supposed to come and get her keys in the next day or two. So we we spent about three hundred or four days, basically running back and forth different places trying to locate her. It didn't really at the time didn't. Look like Joe have done anything to her. It looked like they may even be together, so we weren't,

we didn't really have anything solid to go on to issue an alert. At that point and at the risk of looking really stupid to the pub look, I finally had to make a decision. Well, I would rather her be mad at me for looking for her strongly. Then something happened to her and I didn't look for so long. The decision on my own to go ahead and the issue of all points bulletin, basically for her her vehicle and Joe and it was only maybe an hour or two later after we put the bulletin out that her car or one of her cars, was located about fifteen blocks from her apartment, that far, maybe maybe not even five hundred yards from her apartment Joe, had taking the car and left it in a parking lot in a real height traffic area. That's a lot of apartment complexes. Lot a car stolen in that area, lotta theft,

cars area- would you left her car therewith he's in it, and the door unlocked and sit there three or four days and nobody stole it. I think people in the area, where afraid was a trap by the population like staying sure, so nobody took the car. It was good for us and once we found the car that change the game, if she was going to run off with Joe GO gambling somewhere and go vacation, Anne not show up for work for a day or two. It was very, very unlikely that she would also leave a nice car. It was a newer Ford, Taurus leave. It set, put the keys in it near her apartment, so I could get stolen. So we had to change the face of the investigation. At that time we started looking a lot harder for them. You also spoke with her. She has a couple daughters and

and so you spoke to one of her daughters as well Thompson Lee. Is it LISA Thompson yeah LISA, Thompson yeah? So you spoke to coworkers. You spoke to her daughter, tell us what the picture was slowly evolving into and what your conclusion was. After speaking with these people and what did some of these people have to say about ginger, Gasaway and Joe Brown and concerning your investigation, so I think once they saw that we were becoming more concern about her whereabouts. The fan we got more concerned. Friends were more concerned also in English, started hearing stories of domestic violence, we started hearing stories of Joe beating her. We heard about him threatening her and her being afraid and family members were also afraid. That's when we heard about her husband or ex husband,

I have to get a restraining order against Joe. Hence we started tracking down other apartments that she lived in and talking to those managers and found out up better some horrendous fight in those apartments, and they ve been made believe because of their disturbance to the other neighbours. And yet they began to look more and more like ginger didn't leave on her own, but that may he had had entered her somehow, maybe she'd gotten away from him really up until almost the last two. So the investigation believe this something more serious may have happened to her. We knew she was missing. We knew violent temper winning that he had beat her up once before and put her in the hospital, but he wasn't a murderer at that point. We didn't really, and she was somebody that was just such a nice lady.

She had a gambling problem, little bit of drinking problem and given the family was telling us it's possible that she went with him and their gambling somewhere. So given the fact that the relationship was one of those on again off again, all the time we didn't know where it was at what stage it was in and when we finally got on his trail, then so something that we had to kind of decide to do on our own. The other detective that worked with Maine, primarily prior to finding Joe and get him into custody. We put in a lot of our own time over the holidays, talking to people and taking trips and making reports out and entering things on a computer. We finally ended up putting a bulletin out. That would look a little farther two other states. It went through a wireless system that went through so all states too.

Look for Joe look for the car and look for ginger still. We were looking for ginger all this time. We didn't know that he hadn't taken her like kidnapped, that he tried to kidnap this other guy. We didn't know that he may be heading to stuck her in a car and took off, so we were looking for them to try to get her home and make sure she was ok. What we found out was kind of surprising, though now you also put out this sort of all points bulletin in neighboring states. In case Joe Brown was arrested, and because he was really only wanted on a misdemeanor. You put out this all points, alert with the express purpose of making sure that he was held so that you could be bright, and so it would be logical that crack right and it was very risky to do that, because the only charge we had on him was failure to appear for anger management, which is kind of like a writ of attachment type.

It was very small, it was misdemeanor, but the way the law works basically or the way the system works in Indiana is that if you have a misdemeanor charge against you and a warrant, you can be arrested anywhere within Indiana, but there's no guarantee that the county- that's wanting. You will pay to have you transported here. So if he had been caught, say up north in Kokomo or up around Gary or something like that, the county, and where can he may not have paid even having ship back down near the mayor? He's told him to let him go. So that's that's statewide. What we're looking here and there the chances of having somebody arrested in another state on a missed in charge. Your very slim, most police departments in in state, will refuse to serve a misdemeanor warrant, partly because they know that the state- that's looking

for them won't honour the warrant than then they won't transport him. So it's a loss. It's a big amount of money that they're looking about manpower things like that to hold somebody court time, and so we really didn't think that they would pick him up. While we had that all points bulletin issued, I was content in our prosecutor's office trying get warrants issued on the idea of a bank charges which were classy felonies. He was looked at like ten years on each one of those we never. We never get the chance to get those warrants issued before Ohio coding. Right now tell us about the circumstances of him finally being arrested, where he, where he was arrested, and just tell us the circumstances. The thing that worked out, good for us is on a Sunday. I can't, after all the news media here and Evans Phil

and told him I wanted to meet with them all. At the same time, at police headquarters, I had a news release on a missing Carson and I gave them all the same information at the same time, picture of down picture of her picture of the car. We thought they might be driving plate numbers all this kind of stuff put it out on the news media. We didn't have any with the all points bulletin yet, and so so we put all this out the news media well within about an hour of the news going out. We get a call from somebody that is like second or third cousin of Joe Brown in a little town north of here about an hour called buckskin. An this lady called and said. I just saw the news Joe, was here about an hour ago, and he parked way down and at the end of our drive like one hundred yards away from the house and came up, then he really look bad. He was shaken and he was most crying and he said I got

have some money to get out here. I've done something really bad. And she said it scared her so bad that she gave him money, even though she didn't want to just so he would leave so we didn't really have any idea where he was going so it since you, it was a family member. We talked about family and where people lived and I'm trying to think if he he one family member, he might go looking for another, So the only thing she knew was that he had a brother had a sister up in Terre Haute, which is north of here a couple hours, and he the brother in Zanesville, oh, but she you know the name. She just said he had a brother named David and he works Cole, gate, cooking, palm olive and being a wonderful detective that I am I'm thinking, tags TAT, space tubes says Cincinnati and all that on their so called.

For the apartments over that way and found out. You know that there was a Colgate plant there. And so, when we put our bullet now, we specifically concentrated on the interstates that would go through Cincinnati Cleave in Columbus in that area and that when we finally got some look on it as it turned, I thought he was going to his brothers house and the brother lived in Zanesville higher Will Joe made as far as Lebanon, oh, which is about a five DR drive. He made it to in Ohio and he was tired. She pulled into the truck, stop and crawled the back seat of card stolen from ginger and would sleep well. He was what he woke up like five o clock six hundred o'clock in the morning with a state trooper tapping on the window from Ohio. That's where we got lucky. Now from there he is transported back to have until it. How do you know how easy what happens after

his arrest? How that, where are you go towards where he is yeah? We ended up, have to go to him the way the law works due process under constitutional rights. All your rights and stuff due process says that, if you're arrested for a crime you have to appear before court at the next can in a fortnight, the next available court date. You didn't say you have to go immediately in front of a judge. Just the next available court has the you can't put it off. You know and wait three days so he's in Ohio the way the law works, as you have to extradite from another state, even here in Evans, we're just right across the bridge from Henderson KY. If some makes it across the bridge, and I want to rest them. I have to have Kentucky he's arrest a man and I have to extradite him back. The Evans will like ten miles away, but that's the way the law works well he's in Ohio, which is a couple of states away,

and so we have to extradite him, but the law doesn't say is that I have to it just says: I have to get him to court at the next available court date. It doesn't say that I have to leave him in Ohio until he goes to court. I just have to get in front of a judge to to answer the extradition charges. I so we talk two when we found out he was there. We talk to our prosecutor, we talk to their prosecutor and between the two of them they agreed that we had the right to check him out of the jail in Ohio, bring him to Indiana temporarily to do what we did. And I'll get into that in a minute, and then we had to take him back to Ohio as soon as court was open so that he could go in front of a judge and do it formally. It didn't violate any of his rights due process is just a process. It's not a constitutional requirement. Every case is different. They always look at that

reality of the circumstances before they make a decision, whether you violated somebody's rights and basically the whole Kate In the end, it took a whole year in court for all the hearings and stuff to decide whether or not we had violated due process by bringing the Indiana prior to extraditing him courts. The ruling was that we hadn't that we had had play fair and them will be able to do, but there were a lot of reasons for that. The primary one was that it was Jos idea just wanted to come here. He didn't. He said. If you don't take me now. Well, I'm not going to show you anything. He said I want to go right now and go to Indiana and I'll show you where all the body ports are in, so we didn't have much of a time frame to do it

We barely had time to get him here, find the body parts and then getting back to court, and that was what we did. Ok, sorry, let's go back just a little bit to this incredible confession that you elicited from from Joe Brown. You speak about in your book that you have they. Is your own philosophy is based on Maslow's theory of hierarchy of needs. Please explain this philosophy and what it has to do with. How you deal with criminals and how it played into this your mentality and basically, your philosophy before hand of interviewing Joe Brown to try to elicit a confession to try to get the truth out of Joe Brown. The metals hierarchy

It's very says that you have. Everybody has the same needs on a very basic level. You have the need to feel safe and to not be handed, you have to feel like you're able to defend yourself and once you feel like you're safe, where your at your feet are on the ground, then you can start looking to satisfy other needs like if you're, hungry or you're thirsty, and so then you're your bodily needs will come. Second after that sea. You start finding that, once you satisfied your search in your hunger, then you're looking for other needs and they build like in a pyramid to wear the very top need once you get to the very top. You sell fact realize you become the person that you always wanted to be, but you have everything that you need. The phone innovation has been laid for you to become the person that you want to be

whenever one of those little blocks is knocked out from under you. You start from there and build up again. Ah so everybody basically has the same type of needs and that's something important to know when you viewing someone for a crime, especially anything very serious or a sex crime. People do not want to admit their part in something horrible sex crimes, her or one of the worst, because we have such a stigma against that. They don't want to say that they did something and with Joe if he was going to admit that he killed somebody he's looking at probably getting the death penalty or are getting life without parole. Now he's already then been down once and got a life sentence. Second timer much harder on him, and so you have a lot of reasons not to talk, and we knew this before we went into the interview. We knew it that he'd gotten a twenty or a fifty year sentence.

We knew that he had a lot of experience with the police and so and the other thing that I do too was that the Ohio troopers that caught him for me had tried interview, aim and had ready, Miss Miranda Rights, and he spent here our time. Cussing and threatening them got fighting fail before I got there like six hours, he already a fight in jail and he was really cranked up and he was ready to fight us to it and want to come and then more talk to this. Everything was a cuss word coming out of his mouth and it was very mad. The way that I was a husk negotiator for quite a few years for our department and what you do when you deal with somebody, that's angry, is you become com? You get quieter. You talk softly because makes them quiet down to listen to what you're saying they may here for a while, but eventually it'll blow over its just like steam,

don't buy into that you. Let them play your game instead of playing theirs and as long as we're talking to you, let him talk, no matter what their saying, if it's all cuss words that still words you just let him go using. The Maslow's theory is a basis for that says. I know rules that Joe needs thinks he's in jail. He's scared he thinks he's going to go to prison. So what I want to do is try to allay some of those fears to get his feet back on the ground to where he has some foundation to talk from, and so we have to address all these little basic needs. First,. Before we could ever ask even the first question about worse. Ginger was a real good question. We didn't get to ask it for a long time, It had to put him in a position where he would talk for where he would even speak to us. His mind was five questions ahead because he was angry. He was scared, so I had to bring him back into the present again

and you use all those little things these little tools to do that in part of it is just stablishing a relationship with them where they don't have to be afraid of you. You can't promise him anything. Of course, I can't go if you tell Maine where gender that we want file charges on, you will let you go this way, didn't know that that was going to be the case, so you can't make those kind of promises you have to make them want to tell you so use the trip. So you started befriending him. You talked about his bricklaying job. You talked about everything but mentioning ginger gasaway for quite awhile for at least

a half an hour was just small talk. Now not everybody that you worked with was in agreement with this as well, but you are not the only person in the room so tell us just how you set this up in the first place, how many people were in that room and tell us what how you proceeded with? What was the subject matter of four that first, while let's get right into that confession is, I think, was this brilliant, how you did it and in the event, that sort of created the even for you the surprise utterance of the four words and we'll talk about it? A bit so tell us the dynamic of the officers in the

room itself and what your strategy was and what you particularly chose to speak about four of them forever more than a half an hour in this, and in this interview with job out, ok we're when we first arrived in Ohio, there was a state trooper that had Joe and brought a man, and they arrested him on our misdemeanor charge and women's rights. I was really surprised that they would do that and be cause of the nature of our concerns. They also charged him with flight to avoid lawful prosecution, which is a felony, and it's also a no bond. They can't bond out of jail for that right. They ensured by June, at that he wouldn't be released until we got there if things went different after we got very probably have been released, but I had to really give credits, though, how police department for doing that that's way,

love and beyond what most police agencies would do, because you know there's a political things going on. They did good job, but one thing they showed us was that he had been read his rights in the back of the police car on the way to the station and again at the station in the police, car and each time all he responded to was was cutting them, and I know my rights. I know my rights, you not to tell me my rights and giving them a hard time, and so, after view and tat, they showed me the video before I ever in a women to interview him, and there was a lieutenant and sergeant with the Ohio state troopers that had had in custody. There for me holding him and they go. How are you going to interview this guy? All he does when we ask him a question he casts of us he's got nothing to say, keeps his arms folded, nose in the air and he has nothing to say and he hates us and I said well, that's good.

Because now I got you to deflect all that anger and hatred so I said what I'm going to do, I'm not going to interview I'm going to go in and negotiate with him like a hostage negotiator I'm going to go in and talk to him that way, because negotiations is about s spine need about trading Vienna, car salesman. He has something I want. I got something he wants, let's trade, and so I decided to go at it from that angle, and one thing you never do is a detective. You go in a room with a prisoner, the going alone and another detective on the outside takes notes through watch in a video or listening. Are you going with another detective, an only one of the detectives talks, the other one takes notes. And watches. What's going on and that's it for you, don't you don't have more than two people in a room? That's the rule. It just doesn't work any any. Other

negotiation is different. I thought I needed to distract Joe he's mad man at them- he's not mad at me, yet so really mad at them, and I wanted to use that anger and deflect it towards them and get it off of me. So I could talk to him So I told him I said I appreciate it if you guys would come in the room too, so I brought both of the Ohio troopers in an my partner, and we all were in the room together in me, and my partner set down the two trooper set kind of across. The room in a corner out of the way, but where he could see him and it worked out perfect as general immediately started pointed and threatening them and go on already told these. You know what that I'm not going to talk and I'm not talking to you either and he called me much names and he yelled, I'm very animated and

Another thing you do is a negotiator. Is you try to deflect anger the best thing to deflect angers, humor sure if you can make somebody laugh, they can't be mad and laughing at the same time right. So I looked at Joe and the other thing you do is you become whatever you have to be to get them to talk. You know if you have to be nice or mean or whatever, and I looked at I kind of leaned over and held my hands out like I was bleeding. I go. Jesus Christ, Joe nice Mouth, I said, can't believe you said all this as it. My ex wife didn't catch me like the Essen and I could see a smart. Come on his face. It was like I got to him immediately any and he looked away real, quick and I could tell he was trying not to grant. He goes well, I'm not talking to you. And I said: well, you don't have to talk to all, but don't you want to know why? I'm here I said, I'm a white other crime, Detectives Evansville Police Department, and I need to ask you some questions

I said I'm here to ask you for help. I need some help and, I said you're the only guy that can help me. I hope you're not going to turn me down and so he goes well, he said I don't like the way these guys have been treating me. I said I wouldn't like it either. I said I understand and I appointed them. Like you know, a bunch of jerks. Said, but I need some help and I said I just sit down talk to you for a bit. He goes you can sit down, but I'm not talking and I go. Ok, that's all. I can ask just listen to me then, and that's what got the conversation started. Basically, at that point he still mad he's trying, not the like me. He thinks he might kind of like me, but he said, as did not getting curious. What am I doing there? You know what do we really know deep busy on this and really to be honest at that time I wasn't sure that he had done anything bad to ginger. She might don't draw the car somewhere and she might be hurt. You might be in a hospital.

I didn't really think he had killed her. I really didn't believe that yet so were talking in his work talking about school and and his head and brick lane how hard work is- and we start talking about the apartments that he lived in with her the apartment that we had been to where she was moving out of, and we talked about the apartment quite a bit and I've been out there numerous times. Another runs so remembered where the swimming pool was in India, the club other creation room and all that the staff, and so I saw while I was there too. There was ashtrays near the porch, and so I'm building this picture in my head of what it would be like with Joe and ginger on the porch of that apartment. Would they see- and we talked about that, what did they do and it turned out? He did set out there a lot with her and they watch people come and go and people go

the pool and smoke cigarettes and talk. So we start telling stories, but what he always did was deep personalize ginger. She was never ginger. She was her she, those kind of things he would never say her name. That was another thing that you have to do is overcome that. So we worked on that for awhile and eventually got him to look at a picture of, but every time I would pull this picture out of her. He turned his head away and he would look at it and I put it back in the envelope and next time I catch him. Looking at me, I pull it out a little bit and he couldn't help himself look down and any the anchors away kind of conditioning to get them back toward that person becomes person again then I bought talk about her for a long time and he, finally, I thought well I'll give him an out where he can blow

the sun someone else. So he, if you need, if you want to know where gingers at you're, going to have to ask her ex husband over here. One would know where she is, I don't know, and so to buy and what they might go home. I said I'm not talking over. Homewards said no good, you know what talk to him, I'm not talking to him again. He really pissed me off. I don't wanna talk to him and said you gives me a look like yeah. That's right, I don't like him either. So we we worked with that for a while, and I thought well let him blame it on Hobert at least he'll keep talking, and so I would ask him then what do you think covert might have done to her and he goes. I don't know what he would do. He's crazy he's liable to anything is violent so that it made me feel aloni seekers at that. What may be Joe did do some to her, but the more we talk we just to beat around the Bush on this conversation about

for ginger was, and I kept telling him I said, look too I'm I'm not the world's best detective and I am struggling with this case, but I can tell you this much can't quit until I find her I'm not going home till. I know where she's at I can't stop us understand how I feel about that and he's not his head yeah. You know, and I said you're like me: you you're not a quitter you're. Like me, let's hear the thing you do, you become a team, you and him become the team to fix the problem and you can do it together. It's hard to do things alone, but it's easy to do things together, type thing, so I kept talking about us and I need your help. You know me, you can do this and then I also bringing in the fact that he was in love with ginger, at least for awhile till he follows it. Partly that's the question you asked, but he gave you ask: do you love ginger and what was his response, which was kind of

revealing it was. It was pretty revealing that he still did. However, the look in his eyes and stuff said he did, but he said she threw him out all the time and he didn't know where she was she just left. So he was a real concerned or he didn't act like he was concerned with that part of it for awhile. But you can tell by the look in his eyes, did it was starting to weigh on him a little bit, but do you really know what he spoke to her about the past tense right? It do love her and any I did love. I did love her. Should I did lever in and and when you think about it time it meant a lot to me, but when you think back on it, it could be. I used to love her, but then she kicked me out and not all over. No more so

so you know I didn't want to read anything really big into it, but it was hard not to at that point and at some point we got to talking about this so much the other detective sitting there having a fit because he smoke like drink coffee, and this has been ours. He hath not just talking about, nothing and he wasn't telling us anything that would convict but he was talking. You know and I've been known to go nine. Ten hours into an interview before you know it take breaks, go the bathroom, get something to eat that kind of stuff. If I gotta go twenty four hours I'll do that you know and as you can tell, I hardly ever shut up my head. So here he wanted to keep talking, but the did the other detectives with me. He was getting fed up. I could tell by his body language he was getting tents and he was tired and we've driven for like

five hours and now we'd set for about three hours, and I he was want me to ask the tough questions you know. Did you heard her all the time deaf and dumb beating around the Bush with it, because I want Joe to bring it up, and so he finally blows up the other stacked daily goes. He's not going to tell us nothing? Let's just lock him up law apply he's going the prison, we're not going to be able to do anything with him. He's not going to say anything and so I'm hollering at my partner going shut up, sit down you want to have a cigarette. Go get a cigarette. Just leave me alone. I want to talk to Joe and he's yelling me and in the midst of all that you heard Yoke pipe in real quietly. You'll never find her, and you could have heard a pin drop in a room. The other detected that state troopers. I could see them sit forward listing my partner shut up. He forgot about a cigarettes and I looked at Joe, and I said what did you say and he goes Ricky says: listen to me, you'll, never find

you don't want to be the one to find her Ann can feel my heart almost stopped them, because I knew something that it happened. He pretty much gave it away right. Then there was enough of a report built. It was fastened, that's in that three hours and then the car ride. It was enough of a rapport built that he says you stay in your book. He really didn't want to harm you. You had built enough of a they should ship. They really wanted to spare you finding that body. Is that right? Oh yeah! He I had convinced him, and this is another thing in negotiations. Is you become an actor? If you have to cry you cry, you know. If you have to get mad, you get mad, you spout off and you blow steam whatever it takes to get the situation back in their court where they feel willing.

We talk again. You can never put words in their mouths. You never suggest things to them, because then I have a problem in court sure, but anything else there you can. You can lie about. You know I've been married twenty five times, you know you can I'm a child molester two. You know anything that you have to say it's fair to do that if you want them to feel comfortable talking to you and in his case sir I'd like a servant, tell him I said I can't stop looking for her job gonna keep looking for. I said you have to lies. I suck at this job, I'm a horrible detective. I should not let you down and let ginger down let her husband down and and her daughter center daughters, just beside herself, and I don't know what I'm going to do. I said I can't stop. Till I find arrested this is killing me Joe. I don't need your help. I don't know what I wonder if you can help me, I'm done, and here just sitting there watching this,

then when me and my partner got into it, I think felt like he had to step in and protect me because my partner, verbally abusing me and he's a lot bigger than me too, and so Joe was kind of mad at him. He was like shutting him up wanting to protect me and he goes you'll never find her, and then he looked at me and he's like 'cause, I'm already in tears about not find that gender and it goes here. I want to be the one to find or be understand. Nor am I gonna go. What did you do Joe and he says. I killed her and I said you killed. No, you didn't go yes, I did you killed him. What did you do? He says I cut her up and I said you mean use. You cut nice, because I cut into pieces and ass. I thought. Oh, my god, I said now you turn it down that I said you're not like that he goes yeah I did. It is a cut into pieces. It was almost funny in a way. He wouldn't. Let us tape the interview. So we didn't have a tape recorder running

which was really unfortunate, but I get three other police officers in room to testify. What was said, I felt pretty safe with that is almost funny to hear the like, I said, the expression in his voice. He was looking out for Maine yeah incredible. You also played Appan. You said that you still regardless of whether this guy is this psychopathic killer. You still tried to play to his sense of decency by saying: listen, we, the family needs to have a burial, you don't want animals to carry off her body or bugs. So you tried to play to that and were successful as well with that breaking him down to get him to the point supple enough that this event happened and he just build. That said he I caught her up. I killed their right and he would

did he was telling us that he he could show us where a disposed to the body parts, but he couldn't tell us, which was true. I mean they were like out and feels that we would never found her, and I do that. His mom was there in a new established and his brother was dead by that time. One of the sisters had been talking to me and she was very, very helpful. Just a fantastic lady and she said that Joe had told her, sir, that he'd be ginger up real bad. He thought it killed her, and so she was very forthcoming with information that we got on the way to talk to him. So what I brought up, I said. Well, you know your sister has talked and she told me that you're really pretty nice guy, I said none. The terminator gone and that you ve been there to visit their burial site. I sit

What are we going to do about ginger? I said the family will never believe that she, really dead until they know she's in the ground. I said it's: it's not fair that they go to an empty coffin to pay them respects, because they'll never believe that she's really dead. They think she's uh there somewhere hurt. So we have to find her. We ve got to put her back in a coffin so that the fund we can bury her and put this behind them egos. Well, her daughters, now didn't thing for me in, and it was true they didn't like him at all. They were. They were kind of mean to him because he was a jerk but I told him that I told him another lie and I said well I hate to hear you say that Joe, because Alicia had nothing but good things to say about you and the way you treated her mom and how you were in love. I say, then I hate to hear you say that because that's not true, it's not it's not right to talk about her. That way,

I said, she's a good girl and you don't be talking about her like that, and he goes. I know, I'm sorry yeah and he goes well. He says you know I could show you where they're at he said, but I can't I can't tell you said I can show you and, So can you draw some map and he goes milk? Is I'm thinkin I've gotta extraditing the next day? I was too late that day, we'd have to wait till the next morning. Beginning and so he come up with the idea. He goes I'll go with you right now to show where the body parts are, and I told you I can't take you have to extradite you first. He goes if you take me to court. First forget it. He said I'm not I'm not going to show you nothing, I'm not going to talk to you, no more. If you don't. Let me show you right now. So. That's when we had to hustle and try to find out if we could and we found out, we could- we were told by the prosecutors but guess to sign him out of jail. You know at present for the rest of my life under this half an hour.

I'm scared up early scariest thing I did was taken a risk that I wasn't like a Finally violating this man, I just didn't know. I mean I knew enough about the law that I thought I was ok, but basically What I was doing was the humane thing to do the right thing to do. That's right, you know get the get the woman's body back to her family and if you get in trouble, you get in trouble right right now we won't get. We won't have time to go into the trial, but maybe you can tell us what were the circumstances under which Joe Brown confessed and claimed that he had killed these other women? About, oh, maybe it took about a year to go through all these hearings before he was able to please guilty and got life without parole. So the turn that entire year I had quite a bit of contact with him and

his attorneys and at one point they tried to file kidnapping charges on me for BR in from Ohio to Indiana without extradition. So they have gone to the guy to see about faith and charges against Maine Anjou. I thought that was fun. He goes. I can't believe I didn t do I spoke he. He was writing me calling me all kinds of stuff and about a year to maybe too years after he'd been in, he had been writing me letters periodically and he sends a letter to the prosecutor to one of our newspapers and me saying I'm ready to tell you now about these other murders. So I didn't know there were other murders kind of suspected, but before he went for his ride to prison before he left he said Ricky says I've got something to tell you, but I can't tell you right now. He said this is a at the time he said, but I'll be in touch with you when I'm ready and I've got something really

to tell you and you'll want to hear this, and I tried to get out of what it was, but he wouldn't tell me so then this letter and he says I'm ready to tell you now a murder thirteen other women and that's when all that started. So we started looking into that, and but it was bad timing because I was involved in a case that turn very political and very ugly right after chose arrest and kind of game. The disfavour of the city and police department ended the attack pretty much everybody else, because I didn't want politics with a murder case, and so I didn't get very much cooperation when I was looking into the Thirteen other murders that kind of got shoved to the side, so in terms of verification, it still sort of there still open cases. There is no verification that what Joe Brown had said,

it is true or or not, except for the one Andrey Hendricks that was found and give my arm up. Nor here here find her. He told us about the murder, told us how he left her the side of the road and gave us great detail so much detail things, one weren't, even in the coroner's report, but the family verified, and we were able to look at the the corners picture and identify some of the marks. He said he left on her things that only the killer would have known and Joe pick her out of a lineup. We gave him a line up with six women in it and she was one of the women. And he immediately goes to that picture. Any girl said slick, that's her, the girl I killed. So we know that he did that one, the others. We just never really got to look at very hard because most of them were prostitutes and in Evansville prostitutes come to town. All the time disappear,

They move from place to place to place an missing prostitute, a priority. Nobody has a report, the wedding, oh sir, missing. Nobody knows her name to begin with, so it's kind of like looking for invisible people and that's the problem with it. You know you're not dump in a body where you find it, then you don't have case so there's no telling the things that he told me about how he killed Jenny and why he killed her and the fact that after he elderly put her underwear back on her torso, he cut her arm and had lakes of an energy tax. Surrender weren't put it back on her torso before he dumps her because he said I didn't want her to be found naked because she was a very modest woman s kind of crazy statement, but without hindering he stricter naked enter, out beside the road kind of facing up, because he said she was real flat tested and she was humiliated about it and he,

but God and everybody to see that she didn't have any chest. And he wanted to humiliate air. That kind of makes a lot of sense. To me when you put those things. Together. This is guy. That's telling you the truth, the facts, you know just there's body there were bodies you know, Pennsylvania, Virginia and Mississippi. I was never able to go to those locations and talk to anybody. So the offer distance by the FBI that was made to me was turned down by my Orton. I never had to go and look, but in your in your mind, did you you talk about the serial killers, sort of mentality, and you know I've. I've read a lot of these books and you know I'm up on the subject as well. It seemed that, even though it doesn't may be as blatant is some of these serial killers wanting to relive their crimes, he seems to have quite a bit of that characteristic as well, that

oh yeah he wanted to do was reliving by talking to me yeah exactly. I want to show me all about it again. He was going through it again. You could see the look in his on his face. He was there again he transported back and I didn't want to really do that for him. I wanted him to tell me where they're at still got a little bit of hope, that somewhere down the line, Joe will break and tell me the: were you aware that he killed his cellmate back in June? The heat he strangled so may dislike. You did these women in June and he was telling them that he wanted to talk to me, but we didn't ever get to that point. I didn't talk to him about that and I didn't want him using that as a way to get me back up there and relive all the stuff. If he's not gonna, do me any good these women then I'll go for it, dig it up again. Unless it can help you, I could see what you mean be in vain it from

my only experience too. I don't want to enable these people with their strategies getting to the to the crimes that themselves in solving them. That's that's one thing for sure. And I think he's got the evidence. I think he knows where it is. The like drivers license and things like that. I believe he knows where it is, but if he gives set up, then it's gone he's not in control anymore sure he doesn't dominate them. If he doesn't have their license, we don't have the body we don't have their id, so we can't prove it. So he still in charge and if he gives that up then he's lost that control and I don't think ready for that, yet it maybe a couple years, you may every day, but I kind of expect one of these days to get a call from one of the prisons that he wants to talk and I'll probably go. If he does. I would really like to find the rest of these, of course,

well Rick. I also want to tell their audience to that you've gone on to write some nonfiction and tell us the titles of the non fiction books and just give us a just briefly What what you're doing? What you're writing career is and tell us about the a couple books that you have written already. Ok after a blood rail. There was the one about your brown. I really didn't fit. Like it, was very cathartic for me to write about true crime anymore. Didn't help get this out of my system, but fiction is just totally made up it's like they say: no animals were injured in the making of this film create anything I want, and I sleep like a baby at night, so my two books first one is the cruelest that came out last year and it's uh psychological murder mystery there serial killer involved in it and

active named Jack Murphy here in Evansville in and he's kind of a wise guy that doesn't let the poor, rapala see or anything else stand in this way as long as he solves the case, he's all about the victims, all about solving the case, and so the second book in that series, then, is the coldest fear its continuation kind of they are standalone enough that you could pick up either book and read them in any direction, but they're all about Evansville in and surrounding areas and Jack Murphy and his partner Labelle Blanchard. I'm planning three more, at least in the series right now. I've got the third book almost finished in the series and I'm hoping to do at least five will just that remains to be seen him in about a week I'll be living in California, moving from Evansville and quitting my job and going under writing full time so

a regulated. But thank you. Yes, it's been a long time coming, yeah yeah, it's it's interesting. I speak to some some true. Others have started in other careers and a little bit later in life, and one guy in particular he's written about twenty or so something books already is a couple couple year and and just just loving it are. You writing. True writing, though, but given your your situation situation your occupation, I also see see crime, crime, authors, it's 80s. I just need a break from this. You know because, like you say it's very hard to write of this stuff, that's nonfiction it. It takes a certain amount out of you. So I think I can understand your wanting to write fiction where again, like you say it you're, not so personally involved and it's it's not

not something that you have to relive just to write the book. So I still have some compassion some feelings for Joe Brown. He was like an injured animal and you did he turned out like he did. There was trouble. No doubt he was going to be that way, but I'm not saying that he should be excuse in any way for what he did but down deep inside him. There was still something good that could be reached up to the surface in he any end. He did the right thing. He told the truth. He found the body and he tried to tell, but these other murders and also, I think way down deep. There still good person in there he's just he's, not in control of himself. Yeah see you got about this. Why don't like do in a kind of Friday night? I don't ever stop feeling they say things about my job and that's another reason I'm leaving Indiana. I can't drive down the street in this town without finding a spa were where I picked up a dead baby or somebody

range where in the street or you know, and it just is hard to takes, I'm gonna get some place new. Yeah, absolutely in California, will be the place for sure oh wow yeah absolutely well. I could say I want to thank you very much for number one for pending this book. Blood trail amazing book, fascinating story, and the real bonus of this is the detail in the confession. I mean there. This is not the first book where His claim to have had a brilliant investigator. I don't know if you're familiar with the Colonel Williams case in Canada,

there was an officer that had again a similar approach in that he did not confront them. He tried to build a build, a repor and then played upon the person's conscience to do the right thing, despite having done the wrong thing and been a rapist and a murderer, but again the detail in this book. It shows exactly how that was done and then that turning point where your partners are gonna tell us nothin, I ma am I in any news. Behaviors, and want to go for a coffee and then the surprise of surprises. The good work that you've done. That's the big result so very, very fascinating to get so inside and so intimate. In that in that room with Joe Brown in those officers. So again, congratulations on the great book and thank you very much for coming on true murder and talking about your book blood trail. Thank you for having me well, thank you

How much you have a good evening for our audience. You been listening to the program, true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them with my special guest Rick Reed talking about his book blood trail. Thank you very much and goodnight. Steeped in luxury, driven by innovation. It's how we do business had Genesis of Willow Grove. It's our mantra, the phrase we can help the RP. It's our promise that Genesis of Willow Grove will serve every customer as exquisitely S. Genesis does steeped in luxury, driven by innovation, its genesis of Willow graph on east in road and willow, Grove and online, at Genesis of Willow, Grove, dotcom hurry and for an offer as exceptional as our vehicles Pronounce you husband and wife, you may kiss the bra.

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