Bluebeard is the story documenting the history behind the reign of terror imposed on Europe by Gilles de Rais, the infamous Bluebeard. The author brings the reader into the castles, pageants, battles and dungeons of medieval Europe to explore the enigma that was the life of the man, who fought bravely and valiantly alongside Joan of Arc in pursuit of a higher cause then descended into the dark depths of sexual exploitation of children which made him an historical monster. But what is it that causes a man to develop to being such a person? The author focuses on the man s life and the foundation set for his mental and intellectual development, then explores his life subsequent to the sword clashing, blood-letting battles alongside Joan of Arc. She raises questions, presents hypotheses from genetic disposition to PTSD to explain the demonic action of the man. It is a book that gives the reader a breath-taking experience and presents thought-provoking possibilities as to why a man who led a life of valor as a brave warrior could descend into the dark depths of depravity. BLUEBEARD-Brave Warrior, Brutal Psychopath-Valerie OgdenNATUREBOX-Snack Smarter-Start a Free Trial-For Delicious Details: http://www.naturebox.com/offer/free/sampler/?utm_source=truemurder&utm_medium=podcast&utm_content=link&utm_campaign=2014_podcast&afid=truemurder
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the Enigma that was the life of the man who fought bravely and valiantly alongside Joan of ARC in Peru. You have a higher cause, then descended into the dark depths of sexual exploitation of children, which made him hey historical monster, but what is it that causes a man to develop to being such a person? The author focuses on the man's life and the foundation set for his mental and intellectual development and explorers is: subsequent to the sword clashing bloodletting battles. Alongside Joan of ARC, This questions presents hypothesis from genetic disposition to PTSD to it playing the demonic action of the man. It is a book that gives the reader a breathtaking experience and presents thought provoking pot
abilities as to why a man who live life of valor, as a brave warrior, could descend into the dark depths of depravity the book that we're featuring this evening Is Bluebeard brave, warrior, brutal, so Psycopath with my special guest journalist. Author Valerie Ogden, welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Valerie augment hi. Lovely. Thank you for your introduction. It was wonderful! Well, thank you. This is for those people that think that horror and serial killers, and all that madness and craziness started at Jack, the ripper or well. We got a story for you here I mean like. Let me just ask this question of all the books that you could have written, give
just a little bit of your background with given the way the story here at all, but what brought you to wanting to write Bluebeard? What brought you to this project? Bluebeard? It's it's actually fascinating. We at the wedding of my nephew- and it was in an old, lovely church in Belgium, and it was, I think, built for the crossbowman of the 13th century and there are no chairs. You had to stand up and standing next to me with this, though very well dressed man in his italian suit, and he looked at me and I looked at and then he smiled Anne in French. She said how do you like your nephew, marrying into the family of a murderer and, of course I thought my really rusty and I looked at him and then The broad came in and we couldn't do anything more talking, and so we got to the reception I went over to and made a beeline form, and I said, could you explain to me what you just said? Did you say that this was the my nephew
just married into the family. But murdering said, oh, yes, yes, he's famous. His name was his His name was Bluebeard was the uh. The blue beard I had known was it's a fairy tale written by shells, hello, and actually he based his fairy tale he. Change, two story where his you know his bluebeard kills. His wives were very nosy based it on the true blue Beard whose name was junior they, but he change from children to wives's that's the only man I knew and hear this is would not tell me anything more to said, oh, I know nothing more go talk to my mother, so I went to mother and of course the mother said, I know nothing, he was except that he was night? We always live in France, except for you know, Her name is Denise accepted that my nieces family, who works for the EU, and that was it- and I thought this is very strange. No, this
man, apparently they did tell me he lived in the 15th century at that he's been dead for hundred years. Why won't they say anything more So when I got home, I started to do research and there isn't that much in English, which is very interesting. It's very sort of prejudicial this is just a horrible man. That's all they tell you, they don't tell you, he would be here the hundred years war so became very interested because I had, I would say, history, scholar. You know in college and I was just curious, So so I could read French, which was a great help, because I could have written this book if it had just been english sources. Unfortunately, incredible we're going to have to talk about that one hundred years war briefly to an because that was really an integral part of this story. But let's start with little bit of the background on
build arrays himself and talking about G2 and his mother. Area and so tell us about his early life before we get to this, obviously very, very traumatic year when he is eleven years old. So let's talk about the two and his mother, Maria and Personally, people did not get now if they were nobility at that time for love, they got married for you know, combining their their properties and so forth and so on, and so these two came from very very wealthy families in west in France and they took on the name of Grey he, the father took over the baroness is property because she was the last of that ancestry She had no survivors and he quadrupled his wealth by
doing so, and they lived absolutely lavishly in grandiose castles which war incredible. I'm sure they were terribly terribly cold and drafty. But you just read: Read about the the beauty within these. You know the intricate designs and metal pieces and the main eating area, which is also their social area, and you just think, wouldn't you have loved to have been. Been in a warm coat and been able to be there to observe what was going on and there's not much known about. His mother is much more about the thought. Apparently a very, very decent person and he really brought up issues you may very well, he had tutors for him. He made sure or that he was schooled in latin and Greek. Before he was seven, he could speak both he could do mathematics. You know, I think, the Father hi, did himself in bringing up a real sort of.
That time more renaissance first and then even the light middle ages, and then shall I go into but happened to the father. Well before that, to you also, you say, provided to actually have the tutors, but also the very art. You need exposed him to a very rich artistic life, to the balance that as well too, with exposing them to the arts as well, then the I think he must have. Yes, I mean he always it's it's not that clear, but he must have with some and at that age you know, because certainly the grand father didn't to have an intra in as many aspects of the arts, as he did you've, Then pick that up, I'm sure yourself, but it certainly doesn't courage to have beautiful tapestries you beautiful design statuettes, which works quiz
really carved and when there weren't, even these beautiful tapestries on the wall, they had italian pain. You apparently the best painters of the day, come in and do see Linkedin Wall Paintings and the floors were of jade which the ones which weren't carpeted, so he was exposed to X. Strava, gance and beauty all around. Now he had a brother just recent, Bible in the family the year of the year, and then he was eleven years old and so tell us what happened with the father. What happened with the cell the Father who he adored, who ginger they adored without hunting For boar in their forests- and it's called Xantos A and He was gored by the wild boar and and he had a slow, painful death. Obviously they didn't have many. You know pills that they could give
Someone and he just died- a terrible, terrible death which obviously should delay witnessed and then his mother about six months later died so He was left an orphan at age, eleven, his brother being one who really probably couldn't comprehend anything, and there was a father had wanted his. I guess it was his cousin said he wanted to bring up, should get away, but the grandfather rope that they will and he was able to take both junior high and the brother into his own sort of uh. His own wing and the reason he wanted to do that was he wanted to control the vast wealth that Jill at eleven years old inherited. So that's what he did. He was almost his name was decay on and he was you know he dressed
Finally, he was a noble himself, but he was really almost no better than a thug. He invaded his neighbors property He would steal he would do whatever he could to take over somebody's property, and this is the influence you know that they had, although he sort of left these boys alone, to do whatever they wanted, which they did, and certainly it's interesting because brother didn't turn out the same way at all. But the one thing that this thug grandfather did was make sure that you do a was schooled to be a fine squire to be a very at night, which he got I turned out to be. He turned out to wonder city past everyone else. He had that less to be the best. At the same time. Yes, no go ahead, sir. I
just to say at the same time, this is a column. You know I'm just trying to distinguish 'cause, there's so many french names. I don't want to get everyone mixed up so saying so. Gran Father, which he really wasn't. He was a noble, but he acted like it done. He cared nothing about. You know, books or anything of the kind and, of course, at this age, at eleven Judy could speak Latin fluently, which was at that time. That's what the nobles could speak and, of course, the grand father could be. Really understand it. He didn't want to speak it, so you still had that you no desire to read which she did as well as be a night. He had that combination within him. But at the same time there is yes go ahead. Now, I'm just going to say that, because The grandfather really left him to do whatever it is sort of is a sign, and you see that.
With children. Today, when they're left alone, that is apparently the worst thing that can happen to a child is have anyone care for him and he desperately sought his grandfather's affection, which he, never got any tried in all sorts of. As you know, with the book, sorted ways to get the grandfathers attention by beating up servants by beating up you know his compatriots and the grand Father just and never cared never cared. He was more interested in acquiring property. You talk about the grand Father, though it's in the book. You cite an event where he would assemble a mock court of twelve. Thirteen year old boys- and you say this is- was homosexual in nature, so that his grand son could dominate these twelve and thirteen year old boys, so that's
a little bit of the n. Yet no, I don't think he knew that this was going to be homosexual nature. He just had these boys, that's how he entertained drag to bring. These quarters is a mock court, but he wouldn't sit there and What was going on, I think what happened is that now in Gran Father wasn't around and some of the boys had. No, I don't want to be your servant. You know I'm equal to you, he He was probably very, very strong and he just he bullied them. I mean he just bullied them an the thought is by one of the you know off. There is a french author. He thinks it was all what he did was homosexual in nature with these boys, but I don't think that the the grand Father knew what was going on there. I mean, I think he just thought that it was probably beating them up right. And you also talk about homosexuality. How was regarded in at at that time, the previous
centuries before that in at that time. So tell us how homosexual was regarded at that time anyway, meeting in the earlier centuries, up until the twin set twelfth century, it was accepted. You no one cared and some of the best writing was from many homosexuals and then suddenly, somehow this all changed. And they began to think that homosexuality was equal to beastiality, and you know if this was performed within the kingdom. You were bring wrath upon the kingdom, so it was frowned upon in really found upon so that you know if you were caught being a homosexual and your third offense. I think that, Put you to death, you go of course, flaunted his homosexuality. I think he probably could because of his rank, and the fact that he had been such a war hero, so he could flaunt this. He didn't really flaunt it when he was young, I mean you know, he didn't think it was known, but it was only
the castles. It was not publicly known, but as he older, and he came back from the military. He it responded, he had no women. It is it his castles. He referred women's castle. So you know his this might be funded to talk talk about it here, the father of course, wine to have more property for him, married him at sixteen illegally. They they dragged this girl who lived next door, so we say, live next door, meaning lived with thousands acres next door when she was on a ride and her father had just died and you don't hey and that's a grandfather and a bunch of their poop. Took her to a monks, I guess retreat and You married the two which is totally illegal at that time because they were fourth cousins and then
Then, two years later, three years later, the Sub Grand Father was able to give a huge amount of money to Rome and instead of this being the marriage annulled. They then got married in a huge ceremony, because I guess They were given a nice step for uh this in Rome, so he was married. He hated his wife. In the beginning. He found it to be a total nuisance, and really never paid attention to her. It was just absolute there a marriage of convenience too, but I think he was probably just awful too as you know, which later turned out when he came back from the military and she went running off with and make I have a daughter they. Running off to one of her castles in a way away from him. Now, let's introduce a character, that's important to the story as well, which is his cousin Roger, and if I butcher this last name correctly, please Roger debrief the Brickville.
You do it very well, that's exactly english translation, yes, and he came the SAM Excellent, he came into the family. From Normandy when he was a teenager. His father had as everyone in Normandy did fought. The British and all of them were either you know murdered or they escaped and he escaped his whole family. Escaped and being hi Jim, a distant cousin from Normandy. He was taken into the did get crayon household, and so he lived with them ever since he was a teenager and he just hate get for many reasons. I think, because he was bullet. He was a small man and I think that he was dominated by Chicago, hey, dominated all his life and also sexually abused by him, and consequently he was set to get back
you know one his fortune that he lost when the british took over his father's castles and two I think he realized, when you do, that came back from them, Terry. He really was. He was quite the mentally ill and he was going to take advantage of them in any way he could which he did in a way. I think he is the true villain of the story because he had such way over this man. You know an instead of helping him in anyway. I mean I know at that time and that's another story would get into about mental illness, but he definitely saw something that was someone that was weak. You know, like chickens, do In a chicken coop, they know which one is down and they all take on it. That's exactly what he did yeah, let's, let's wait for the PTSD and that complex psych psychiatric sort of analysis later, because right as we're gonna see as people are going to
hear about this book. In about the times I mean, I can't see you, where everybody wasn't suffering from PTSD, actually just living at this time. So I put up, I think they probably were in any way I would really brutal time. It was about a hundred, tell us about the hundred years war just basically, and what that really amounted to in terms of conditions in France and talk a little, about because this is very important to the barbarity that that the French saw from the english invading fighting on french soil. Well, I think if he knew war hasn't changed that much unfortunately, but they definitely I mean the the British were out what the hundred years war was fought for, the crown of France, both the England and
friends did the king of England and the king of France claimed Prince now, the kings of England were most of them, were. You know, descend the French, the French. So there was there's a history, too or they married someone French. Who is you know a nobility or more the nobility? Even you know a princess, so it went, for over one hundred years, different skirmishes, what the british way he was they would come over. And they would do like horse charges where they would go through villages burned. The villages killed. The people kill the animals do whatever they could to frighten the public. They would you know if they caught someone, they would impale them on us Take the end date: they roasted people alive. I mean it just it. It will remind you very much of ISIS, it's a very similar, primitive way of scaring people into submission, but what it did in France. Besides the
those that were absolutely you know just walking around having lost their minds, which I think that a lot of them probably did was it brought resistance. Instead, you know there was a great resistance to the English doing this and I think in that way they just you know whether Joan of ARC became the Savior with that she really was a savior. These people truly believe, They needed. Someone like that to to defend them from the English. Now you talk about Charles and you talk about his, you know grasp on sanity here? So talk about this, Charles and I won't right pronounce his last name and and so you go ahead and do that and talk about his mental state and the grounds of the king of France. Yes, yeah they were men and they were the first to king and change all the six of
which was beloved. He was apparently a lovely ruler. He was fair to the people, they adored him. What what happened was he went insane and he had ski. Training, and so they were curious when he was think, if left alone in the courtyard it- and no one would pay any attention to me, except for his mistress who took care of him and he was beloved, but he couldn't do anything about the war because he really was insane for so much of the time when at times he is rather ruled france- and that was the Duke of Orleans, and that was when he was more saying and when he was. It is saying his nephew, the Duke of Burgundy rules, and these two men hated each other and they were brutal to each other, and burgundy, when it's just, I mean every. So intriguing with this burgundy found that the Duke of Orleans was the queen's lover,
and so when he came out of her mansion one night, he had seventeen assailants knock him off his horse and chop them to death, and that's the kind of life that these people lived so the king was really quite useless to do anything and there was a brutal civil war that went on between Charles is nephew. The duke of Burgundy and Charles is brothers. The duke of orleans- and it was brutal, was just brutal. So he finally died. Although he had a, he had three sons and two of them were in the custody of the duke of Burgundy when he took with the reign of France, temporarily and they both mysteriously died in his with him when he was taking care of them and he sent for the third
son and he was living down in Aragon with the family and he had been married at fourteen and they said he must come to court and Aragon wouldn't give him up. They would not let him go because they knew it would happen to it. He would murdered he was a very weak person. He never knew I mean he's his mother, who was bavarian very play, on whether he to get in that or not. She apparently had no calorie, as there is with everybody that was a noble in France and so he kept on saying? Well, he's not legitimate and it Joan of arc. Who came the king, even though he at first He wasn't the king or the king or the dolphin, and she said you are, legitimate ruler- and I will make you king now- I you talk about, let's go just back a little bit here, because we've got to make sure that people understand is shield array becomes this decorate
did awarded recognized war hero a night that spot these battles and then with Charles in this really weak position free being besieged by English by the English losing his kingdom, and this seventeen year old peasant girl that supposedly virgin who says she has a vision and at that meeting, while I'll, let you continue with what she actually says to Charles in the come of shield array this hero, this this professional night tell us about this actual what she said, what was char those reaction and what was Jules' Reactjs reaction? Well, you know he Charles first disguised himself, so that so that Joan of ARC wouldn't know which one was the
Dauphin of France. She knew immediately and she went to him where he was hiding between his courtiers and she said I will make you, king of France. You are the legitimate ruler, you are villages, legitimate, son of the king and you're good. I was just own over by her loan over here. He was blown over by right by her comments. The king was not quite it is you know he and his all is courtiers weren't sure what to make look at her and it took awhile for him to finally decide. You know he had to grasp it something and he did the graph that her what she said, because he, I don't think. Where else is he going to go You know he was really the all. His court was being we're just waiting to be driven out of France by the English so he was grasping at straws when he went along with this, although ginger I believed in her immediately and she did make him protector of her on the battlefield she saw something in here. You know she,
something and he remained valiant and loyal to her through his whole time. With her on the battlefield. Even though he did spell yeah sorry, it was really fascinating that you talk about that. Charles and others were where he was skeptical yeah so they had her examined make sure that she was a virgin, yes and and also there, She did have a little bit of a track record because she had predicted at the feet at the head, of the English previously, and so and then someone had informed Charles about this. So she had a little bit of Mo Mojo going on before she walked in there, and no with Andrew. That is true, but they you know that I think they just would have loved her to that. The court would have loved her to have fallen deep because,
You know I mean anyone that was in a noble was considered just one step above chattel, so they couldn't believe that the Dauphin of France was speaking to an first in a live peasant who? Secondly, was a woman. He was a girl, so yes, and the other thing I mean it is very funny, because if you were, if they found that she was not a virgin, of course, it would have been. They would have killed her because they would have thought that she had had intercourse with the devil 'cause. That's what sure it's always the thought so quite a time quite a time, but it reminds me so much of our time today, unfortunately, but yeah. Finally, you know show off, gave her a command you know his army and that must have been quite something for the hardened soldiers, but she, I guess, was so devout and so real
just you had just one idea that God was going to save friends that people all rallied behind her. Finally, Really did you know really inspired. The French. The thing is when she went to Charles and in the as if to shield the race she had said she had a that. She was speaking to the St Sir. She prayed to the Saint saint Catherine and Mark, and she had had God's command save is king shit. His kingdom he can yes and so what it established as well so when she went to the army. I get another fascinating part of your book. Is that these soldiers that have lived a life of basic the box? three and the rampant use the beastiality, and these guys were the attended many of pretty close to criminals
yet she inspired them to take confession and to repent for their sins. And the next thing you know she had this army of of former thugs singing hymns and anthems it with the confession: readable, yes, and also then, instead of the banner that they always held up. You know when they went into battle. They then had her full banner of Christ on the you know, and all the men to get friars were tearing this instead of the soldiers right. It's just it's it's amazing and you can understand how the English must have been frightened to death of her with something like that. How could someone get and a lot of the Catholic Church which was too because how did someone talk to you know the saints and, if she could talk so easily to them. Then many of the priests in the catholic church would be. Redundant. They wouldn't be needed.
So many of them, you took the side of the English that she should be burned. Is it as a witch? Let's use this as an opportunity to talk about our sponsor, which is Nature Box and. You, know you're going to snack and Did you? Do you want it to be worth it, something that is tasty and satisfying, but does to make you feel guilty afterwards? What you need are snacks from Nature box choose from over one hundred healthy in crate, worthy options to be delivered right to your door, all of their snow acts are all made with zero, artificial, flavors colors. Or sweeteners, zero programs transaction and no high, fructose corn syrup best of all the taste amazing, so good. And so much better for you than the other snack options out there, so
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In army tell us what happens and how Joan of ARC becomes the legend that she has become. There is a siege of early on, which is you know both the English and the French wanted. The French wanted The English wanted. You know it it would mean really that that was the end of of the French, because it was so important. Pivotal and the siege have been going on for quite a while all the nobles had left only the people that were there were. Starving to death and Joan of ARC was able, with her army, to come in the timbre, because it was one gate that they could go over, which is the burgundy gate, which is the only gate left open that did French, could get food through the burgundy gate. She came in with her troops and actually rallied the young people, and she
Was able after I think it was a week and many battles and we could either go into the battles or we don't have to was able to turn the tide tide against the English and they thought so well. The french and destroyed impregnable castles that the English had that the English turn the next day. This is seven days later after that would started and walked away left left the siege the seizure was over and they think it was all because of her and all because of you know the really the French put themselves instead of running from battle, which they had been doing, they absolutely defended audience and all the places of going to their success and from There- and this was when she was seventeen, so she won one of the biggest battles in the world at age. Seventy, never been a commander of anything and from there
She went on with their day at her side and so other very loyal, comrades, too, take the whole war ballot which had been absolutely written with English, and from there she was able to have a pathway so that Charles could come up through the var and be crowned king, advanced Rei, MS, and it was a very emotional ceremony lasted seven? It lasted five hours and the interesting thing was She wrapped herself around shoulders legs and said. I have accomplished what I wanted, and that was the last time her voice is ever said. You will accomplish what you were made to do. So that's quite interesting because she went on on to try to capture Paris
invest in it. You know Charles is now Charles King, Charles. He added by those who had sold out the town to the English and made sure that she couldn't capture Paris the one place What is yeah sorry go ahead, no, no would have to say with that was at right. After his current chasing Charles made ginger late, one of his marshals at front so at age, twenty four he was made in Marshall of French, which today would be equivalent to a US general, a five star general in the US army at eight hundred and twenty four. So that was you know, it's extraordinary he went on, he refused to go back to the war with Charles. He on with Joan to Paris where she not win the offensive and she was wounded and she asked
good to be with her, which she was and as he was with her, there was word that he had that the king insisted that he come back to his. Castle. In other words, what happened was his advisors did not he did they didn't. I want you to put there because they were afraid between Joan. And Ngos the Parisians, who many of them hated being you know they were dominated by the English. Probably Paris would fall to the French and they did not want that to happen. So they made you go back to the castle with with the king and Joan of ARC Soon after was at another season com, and she was taken prisoner by the English and then she was finally brought to all which is again. You know one of the very sad story
who kept in a horrible prison. She not guarded by. You know women. She was guarded by drunken soldiers. And they had her in a cage most of the time 'cause she was so dangerous. They felt that's how, kept their dangerous prisoners and the trial I went on for six months. She had no representation, she had to defend your when she did it, I think quite well until I think they just wore her down there this wore her down, so she confessed to you know, hearing voices and she thought if she do that they would not burn her at the stake which they kept on threatening to do, and she thought she would then put in a prison where they would be nuns to are they didn't? They took her back to the same prison they took away her female attire and she had no recourse. But to put on this.
Old, grungy male attire, and they accused her of being a transvestite for doing that, and that was a say in and since she was a relapsed center, because she'd already confessed about her voice is that gave the church the permission to, along with the English, have her burned at the stake. Now, what was Jill the reaction to all of this quickly? She, could he and three two other of her very loyal captains tried to attack wall and get rid of the English they could not do. It was very, Only forty, he even tried to rescue her in the castle and that rescue was found out that he was going to do that and
this threatened to throw or into the live in a bag if he even tried to rescue her. So she she was done. She was burned at the stake. He was absolutely devastated, devastated and Here in these other, two captains were able to make great headway after her death in too long. They still never catch actually long, and then he was brought by the king to do other battles, which is. In the morning very near where the with the Second World WAR went on and he was able to raise the seed there. Which again made him another. You know he was, he remained a hero, but his heart was, in the battle any longer and then there was a huge ferocious battle that went on and he sent his brother instead of himself to defend the French and that's when the king, to system from from his position and from the army, eh
and then it was downhill from then on. I mean his death of Joan of arc that he could not save her that he had been so close to her, and there was, I think, some almost mystical to hide between them. Because he had seen her you'll pray for the wind, for example, in Oregon, where the big battle went on to shift and he was just astounded as Wind shifted. You know you have no idea. Who knows, what really happened. But there was some kind of mystical you know stealing of his, and she had also said in front of him that the person in according on the the commander of the English, would not die a bloody death. Well, in effect, he did he drowned in the law because the bridge, where
It was collapsed and he had on all his armor and he couldn't swim and then the prophecy, of course, that the dolphin would be made king and it cemented Jill's feelings about Joan of ARC, and I think the just, don't part for him when his heroin, you know who was supposed Pozzilli gods. You know almost handmaiden was killed as she was and I think he snapped. I and whether it was in your ptsd whether it was some other mental illness, Think from there on, he just became a totally different person and his reaction to all of this. Just I mean you know, I think he had flashbacks about her all the time. He also had this huge production five years after her death,
young you know which was called the this of sees as he called it, and she was the heroine of this. I think it was really in a eulogy to her. It was also to show that he had been a brave warrior and he spent all his fortune with this, with this production free to everyone in France who could come to watch it and who wanted to eat drink and everyone came from all over the place to eat and drink and he paid for it all- and here is this to brief, who I mentioned the cousin who was so evil to say oh go ahead. Do this do this? Do this when it absolutely bankrupt him? Now you talk about him, leaving the Joan of ARC. Was the handmaiden of God himself in this crusade to save? France and now after war and that
after time and after disappointment, you could talk about the snap that this is. He explores his faith in the completely opposite direction, one hundred and eighty degrees. So we talks about someone named Prelati and so talk about his interest in some of these things. By virtue of meeting a man name Prelati, he was interested in black magic that or he met Pallotti. Who is this italian? Who was apparently gorgeous eh? younger man then day at this point, and he was gorgeous and absolutely bamboozled. That said, yes, yes, we will get your money. You know the devil will bring. You gold and so they became steamy lovers. He did everything the pro Lottie suggested. He do nothing seem to bring on the
and provided keep on saying with that, because you know you keep all these stat she of the Virgin Mary and everybody else you have get rid of those because otherwise is the devil's not going to show himself to you, and so then the debt children doesn't show himself, even though he got rid of some of these statues, so well, you know you have to kill, you have to kill, you have to kill five people and they should be babies, and that will be. The devil will know that you know, then you really believe in the devil, So unfortunately I did he killed the little baby and he took the parts with pillow to show it to the devil and the devil still didn't show up, and I guess they both still being you know that there is still had that catholic religion had been ingrained in both of them. Obviously 'cause everyone, even brain that way. In the middle ages and they had such feelings of guilt that they did bury the body in
red soil, and he never again, you know, saw the Devils help in that way with killing, but he always use that as a temporary thing. He never truly believed in the devil, and he was. He was really a very devout Catholic, but he felt that the devil was necessary to bring back his gold. I mean he was that crazy, that that this is his way of thinking. And, of course, Palade and debris fill you know I mean they were going to go along with this, because they were getting money from him in just beside him spending all this money. You know they were going to just believe him. You know to death for money And don't tell a lot, I'm not sure, frankly, weather palazzi as much as a scandal as he was
was involved in the murder of besides this one child. I think it was more to brick, fill and another distant cousin who goaded a guy on to to do all the mass murders of children. I think they were the ones and it whether Palade Jim Bob. That has never been you know. No, I mean I never saw that in the trial. I never saw In a trial transcript, he always you know he kept saying he even told the judges. He could bring frost that the devil to them and that really just doomed him for saying that. But there was never anyone who said he was there when. Murders went on of the children that you do the torture and murder of children, but he did know
No, no, they don't, and if you say he he definitely was a steamy lover, and I mean you, don't I just adored this man adored him he that believeth on that I interest, you know what you had a as they all did how to manipulate him. Now you talk about Roger, did prevail and another person that moved in named is and and then a couple other women Henriette and so tell us about. Before people an what are some of the things that they are recruited to do, and then they witness right yeah feeling to see were distant cousins and they were edition. He knew from the last battle that he was in. He must have been a very brave warrior too, but he saw you know. He realized that direct
was not totally well and he said sure I'm going to come live with you at your castle. Why? Not? So, if you have deep roots, will and do silly with the first who helps do all these murders then have have. Henriette was actually that is not a female. He never you did. He got rid of every female that was in his aunt including his wife with, was sent packing to another castle that she owned. These were to survey, is that this Henriette and Koryo? Would there were two servants of his an I I think they had all their wheels going forward. I think they were probably not half wits, but not full width. That makes sense to you, and so they just like a dog or like dogs, they adored their master. They would do anything for him, and so when he started to kill these children, you know they just went
they just they all witnessed these killings and no one did anything to stopped, and that to me is the most amazing thing you know serial most serial killers today, it's all alone that they do these kind of dreadful murders. But this was group group group depravity which is beyond the pale. In my opinion, and so you look at these- you look at the last two that you mentioned, help me out and call oh, and I think they just they had. They didn't know right from wrong. How you don't I'm not sure, but I think they were just too too crazy sort of not all there. They didn't, real right from wrong. The other two debris brick in silly. They
I did and they lead on Jeff A, and I think they enjoyed the killing as much as he did, but they knew when to stop. They could pull themselves away from that it became became absolutely he had to kill he needed to kill, which is so terrible and no one stopped him. I don't know if I can give anybody any credit at all after some of this stuff I'll, just read it because you didn't really talk about it, but he slipped their throats. This member decapitated, sexually brutalized them the groans and moans and suffering, is what most, cited him. He pulled out the eyes of one child crushed his skull before he had orgasm smash. In another's chest letting them blue need to that, so he could wash his hands and beard in the child's body cavity and sometimes the victims didn't exhibit enough pain to stimulate his libido
I know I'm talking about the trial, but but still. We gotta wait stab Lish exactly what we're talking about here You know that's not very different from what you you have enough cereal, So you know you had talked to so many people about serial killers. That seems to be a pattern with serial killers. You know they want more and more and they're not said the more, they kill the more, they need more stimulation, and that's, I think, what is seen with him the same way. You know what first started to satisfy him was not enough by the end of his killings, I mean just gruesome ghastly. Why don't you read? You know I mean there's like six traits of serial killers, and that is one of them, and they do not right from wrong. So he knew right from wrong and act. One thing with
with Gerais an I think this goes back to his upbringing. As a Catholic, you know in a very devout catholic after the murder of a child. You know when he was not drunk anymore 'cause. I think he did a lot of these when he had a lot of drink in him, he would wake up and he would just have tearable guilt, filling. But of course, then, by the end of the day that would pass and he would do it all over again. You know it's like a habit You know, I think people that like to eat drink. You know they can be fine until suddenly, you know it comes back and they have to drink again and it's the same thing. It's it's. They wish he was sick. He was very, very sick. You talk in the book about a macabre beauty contest with so
Severed heads tell us with just a little bit about that. To demonstrate. I mean so you know, after the murder he would have the heads, the ones that he liked the most put on his mantle piece, like you know, decoration, and Then he would get into one of his very spotless view. The full robes and he would have his henchman decide, which was the most beautiful and he would take the head off the mantle and he would kiss the head and tell them that this had to you know, go go pray to God for me. Was that what he would say all the time and it just I mean you- these children who must have gone through such suffering. We did look probably like little angels. They were probably fixed so that their faces just beautiful again and he always picked as his victims, the most beautiful, the most beautiful child you know, would have done.
Child that was very ugly would have done very well in those days I wouldn't have been one of his victims. He loved beautiful children and that again, back to his probably loving everything is beautiful. You know with silks and and tapestries two golden everything. The fact that this is a bit ought. Yes, no no go on please. At the same time, what you talk about is that he had these beautiful boys that would come into castle and I think, sing for him, yet he wouldn't kill those he would be yeah family, and this is the thing that are saying about serial killers. They usually kill those, people that they have no relationship with so the children that came in and where his lovely little you know his choir. He loved these children. He he was lavish them with give.
And they would have sex with him when he couldn't find anyone else, but he wouldn't kill them because they were his family, whereas these others urchins for the most part you know, were he had no, no relation with them, so they were chattel. They were like you know, just your sheep, your goats, it chickens! Now you talk about this. You too, talk about them being chattel. What kind of numbers are we talking about so that we can just demonstrate how prolific a killer he was and talk about? How many years are we talking about this debauchery and a basement continued? What time frame are we talking about and what kind numbers about eight years, he left the military in one thousand four hundred and thirty two he was apprehended.
Tried in one thousand four hundred and forty, so it won't went on for eight years and in the trials in the secular trial, they mention a certain number in the ecclesiastical in the in ecclesiastical trial. I think they say it could be three. Four hundred more and the thought is it could have been up to. A thousand could have been up to a thousand children. So in yeah go ahead now and and so there's no definite number but you're, not just talking about you know one hundred two hundred three hundred and they were mainly boys. Of course. Unfortunately,. Not very much like serial killers that we all know and and are very aware of this gin and his.
Is croak Coke. Conspirators or is wed after the poor. Not after the rich, not after, and what we're the ruse, and how could this have He need for so long. Tell us how this could have continued and some of the roses and some of explanations for all these children that were gone well. When anyone would confront him, because you know could see that the child wasn't there anymore if with a family member, he would say So you know they he's. Probably using them as his valet in some other town you know so they wouldn't. Obviously, in those days you couldn't travel to another town, and you didn't have connections in another town to find out. He would have even this. This woman, her name, was really bird of prey She would prey upon these children to say I'm taking you to this castle. You You deserve you're, so lovely! You deserve a better life. Come with me, and this noble is going to give you a.
Wonderful life, is a little. Urchins? Would you know she'd hold their hand and probably give candy or something and they would go to his castle? He told he had his henchmen go into villages and they would stop someone the family and they'd say you know, your child deserves a better life and we can give it to him and then they would just take this child to him today and he would perform his. Horrible acts upon them, and then they would murder him and the only did not get that upset at first, because they true- really believed you know they honestly believe that their child was living in the lap of luxury. And would be home to see them at some point. You know we come home, but then it became overwhelming and I guess the We still talk all wrong long before you know people still did talk. I mean you, do get used from the next town and they I'd say you know twenty What did you know?
Plenty of our boys are missing. You know, and I think this was the beginning of the end for him, that people- really began to realize. Whenever a child disappeared either he was there or his henchmen were there and it probably would have gone on, except he then very slow, right? It's a long, complicated story, but one of his castles. He thought that the Duke of Brittany had bought no and had gotten it at a really good price and he was furious because the he had sold it. You know he talked to someone other than the Duke of Brittany, so he went into this castle and through a tonsured priest into the dungeon, along with one of the dukes people and that is enough for the catholic Church to really start to investigate all about him, what he had been doing and they went to different villages and people would come forward and say my child has disappeared. The last place he would see.
Is. There was a henchman of ginger, a that was there or he took him to the castle. Saying He would be his ballet. We've never seen him again and there were hundreds of these people that came forward, so they were able to make a case against him And they was a lot and it was poor people that had pleaded to a certain bishop well, that at that same time it was so many reports and that even the bishop that I'm really concerned about these people being who they were yet and at heard so many stories that stories that seem to to add up to something it added up, and then there was some another bishop who thought nothing of it either until his own nephew it appeared from the castle where he'd gone, to learn how to sing and he went the high bishop, the Bishop of Nantes, and told him this and then they
again to you know, really began to question the thing, and- and you know of course, this man- you to understand to integrate with the richest. I was losing all its its land. He still with the richest baron in France. So of course, to have a trial against him would be wonderful because then you know rest of the nobility could take over his properties. This is combination of everything, and I mean I think that the French were outraged. I think if he committed three or four, murders. You wonder how many of them had done the same thing. To be honest, when you're committing three hundred four hundred five hundred, that's a different story: the French, even at that time We civilized enough, even though there was such five Barry that went on that. That is an outrage. I mean it. It's an outrage, outrage against their civilization and it made them. We made friends with now the
He went from castle to castle. He didn't confine this horror me. The chamber of horrors. Was these castles and and was literally as you describe bodies there was nowhere to hide all of these bodies in these corpses in these castles and it was so many victims to so many people coming forward. So tell us about the actual prosecution of him. The investigation tell us more about the investigation of a jeweled array and his cohorts. Well, I think that you know is. I was saying that first of all, the Bishop have not took down. All these, you know took down everybody's testimony, and not only did he do it, but the do, Britney had his own inquiry into all the the same wrongdoings and they both came to the conclusion that there really was a case against this man, and so they brought him into none in in handcuffs which you know as
startled everyone, because they had him walk they didn't let him on horseback. He walked for miles and cost here is the marshal of friends the richest down. You know, Charles. The king of France is friend Joan of ARC's protector being handcuffed, so if it's a wild trial that went on the ecclesiastical trial took place in it, let Over thirty days, the secular trial lasted twenty four hours, and the reason being is that they used all the testimony that secular trial from the ecclesiastical trial because it had so many witnesses come forward and testify and they used all that as evidence against him and. Secular trial was the more really serious trial because it was for murder,
secular trial. The the excuse me, the sleazy ethical trial was at that time. It was not considered light. He was a heretic. You know he sodomized children, he he knew and he tried to commune with the devil and all that was you know. Obviously he was found guilty of all of that as well, but he just you know he thought that episode that he was going to be able to pay off the jurors as they were called. They were really the judges and that he took this very lightly when he first was arrested, cuz they kept in this beautiful chamber. And he thought you Know- He'D- probably be for heresy and he could hey them off for you doing, Herrick heretical things, and then it wasn't until he got into the trial where he read realized the judges, if we can make hi because of heresy. He couldn't have a lawyer, I think, because of heresy. He couldn't have written statements and he, finally,
decided he was going to you know just prolong the trial and hope that the king of France was going to disband it because he had been such a hero. Well, of course, the king of France wasn't going to do anything with and finally, when they threatened him with excommunication, which in those days was just almost a death sentence in itself, because if you were x indicated no one could talk to you. No one could do anything, you literally an outlaw. He finally came back and confessed to all is crime, and not only did he confess, but he embellished them. So he absolutely talked about everything that he could remember that he did. And there is whether it is true or not. It's I put it in there as in the my book, because I just thought it was so dramatic and it made sense that the Bishop of Non Aff
If you get a confesses that in Christ on the cross is behind them all the judges he he goes to this price in the crossing covers him with the with the rolled the Chris. He didn't want. To have to hear all this horrible testimony by you today, which is just I mean incredible. It's it's interesting. They have such a sophisticated legal system, but very interesting. How do we employ? torture to really get into. Fashion. They really have this this one up on these people, and that They will torture you to get the confession, but in that torture it is very. I guess, as opposed Other torture that might net you now Google results this torture gets the truth from these people, and even the per Lottie, who is determined at court is not is not as involved as these other people. He has to make an appearance
some has to answer in court as well as these other cohorts that are tortured and then make full confession right and whether they were tortured or not. I don't think they were. I think, honestly, that the threat of torture yeah it was so great to these people I mean: can you imagine what they used just even the strap pedal. We could just go into the everything where they put your two hands behind you and then they strapped you up with a rope. And started giggling you and tell you, you know you just lost all control. I mean that is bad enough. Besides the rack and you know, opinions and everything else Yeah, I think it's very I mean yeah and also which was important to despite his stature and
I think he found this. I think it sounds that he found this surprising to that. He was also threatened with torture as well. Wasn't it yeah? Yes, yes, and he could not a mean you know they knew enough all of them about torture that they just didn't want to have to go through that sell better contests and actually be home and be tortured. Now he has you talk about. He had a different approach when he went to call, at first he defied. The court was very interesting how he tries to dismiss it and he's so arrogant and but no one has any authority and then, when he realizes the predicament he's in, he changes his tune. Now that he He is in this trial and there's no hope what is his estimate. Then how does he countered
What is his a strategy? I think his strategy totally and how clever would you know? As I say he was crazy, but it wasn't crazy. He used remorse because that in the 15th century. If you could show total remorse for crime people real you know you were with God, then, and I think he used such remorse and he cried he. You know he said he just felt so badly for everything he did, that the people truly believe leave him and everybody got down on their knees after he confessed and prayed, God that his soul would be with God, so he he fast so that the Luke would would favor him. Christ would favor him the people, would you look upon him with that he was
he was going to be with God yeah. At the same time, he knows that his fate is, is it's not something I can is not and he's not in a court where it is in the foreground? conclusion. If he's going to be killed, so tell us, he has a strategy to to play on the sympathies of people, and you know so that he goes out in terms of the way he believes he really was, which was a hero. Tell us about. This a little bit more about the strategy, and how does it work when the two differences with the ecclesiastical you know he wouldn't have been? He would not have been hung with them, finding him guilty which they did, but with the secular, he, because it was murder, he would be hung or he would be whatever, and we can talk about it 'cause it's very interesting. He was
at his secular trial, the brought in a lawyer for him, because this is a secular trial. This way Where he's being tried for heresy? So he could have a lawyer and then the Then made an incredible defense because he said he is not in control of his fat qualities. He cannot really cannot judge him that there is, the devil is working on him, but in those days it was very interesting to read about this. You know that everyone looked at those who are insane almost like it was the plug itself and before they were asylums to take care of people who are insane anyone who could afford it put their people. Boats and they were called ships of fools and they sell a around the Mediterranean for years, and then they dump off these tools as they call them. In towns where they weren't known, because then they,
I'm just wander around the streets, so there was great prejudice against any anyone who is called in saying so they didn't think the children. I was insane. They thought that the devil had you know had touched him instead and the only thing that I think we suppose grown conclusion that that forgone conclusion that they were going to find him guilty, but what they deliberated, which is fascinating, was whether to decapitate him or to burn him our highest hanging. You know where we can and of course, decapitate Asian would have been very quick and it would have been over. So I think what they wanted to do was show that he really needed to he made an example of, and he had to be on now. He he goes on to again, ironically, and almost ridiculously almost
lecture children and have a place where people coming up to avoid some of these calls so tell us a little bit about this. Yes, that's that's in his confession during the ecclesiastical trial and he tells all of those with children not to you know and not to pamper them and not let them be brought up as he was that he was destined dolls and everything and he could do whatever don't let them eat nice suites and keep them. Do. You know dressed very simply not like he was, and he goes on and on like that, and then he says that it was hip across which was the drink of the princes and kings in the fifty.
Entry, it was a wine and it was spiced with ginger and all sorts of other but probably was delicious, and he said you know that that that's what kids can be kept him in his state of that he could kill. Was he didn't? He said you cannot let anyone drink that. Well, of course, I think he was just conforming to you know what the what the court expected him to say, nothing about like he was on that you know the at the Knights knife edge between sanity and insanity, but this is what caused him to do all this, which, of course it wasn't. You know he was insane. He was insanely is very clever at the trial to his mission for why he did the things he did he said was for him own carnal delights. Right come from a curse of the blackest of stars and right from the very beginning, you point out in the book that he really did think, because his parents dying that he was cursed, did knee
that. You know all the Europeans in those days believed in the stars and they honestly farmers up to kings. Looked at this guy. Like to see where their star was, and I think he just felt that he was born under a black star, a black planet that that's, what caused all his misfortune and what wonder when he says in his out of court confession He said that you know he had no control. It was this black planet that controlled what he did. Well you're talking about your inner psyche, you know when you say that, but that's what they all believe they believed in the stars. I mean, I think it should
here. You see that a lot is network that comes out to that. They all believed that sure what was the fate of his cohorts and tell us about Jill Dirais execution, one thousand four hundred and forty. Who, as I call them the ones that weren't all there. You know his loyal servants who were like dogs really to him. They were not totally, I think, equipped with a brain. They were found guilty as well, and they were all brought to be hung and burned. They both hung and burned at the same time, and they were home and said he wanted to go first because he wanted them to see that it wasn't a ruse. You know that he wasn't going to say: please, I'm not of the Lord. You know I can't be burned to death
that wasn't the case. He went the Hung him first and then the other two were were hung and burned, but he was taken out of the ashes because of his remorse, and he was placed in a card and he was brought to a beautiful, and his remains were there until the french revolution. With all the other sort of nobility of Britney, but the other two were just there. There are ashes with because they were called reprobate. They were thrown to the wind, but they have you know which plays all through this too, which is incredible with the book or the bells, because he, when he was christened there, these beautiful bells in the church that a ring when he dies there. These very doleful bells ringing. You know that the death of all these these people, so it's quite incredible but back to the other two dcd disappear.
And no one ever knows what happened to him. The brick felt with such a conniver. He went to work for you guys. I was with his daughter at age, twelve they married to someone fifty years old, because there was still such Pretty they didn't want her land taken away he went to work. This debate still went to work for the this husband and he so persuaded the husband that he was innocent, that he was able to. Letters to the king and he was pardoned. He said because he was so young
it was all you guys fault, and he made him go pick up all these people for the king believed in, and so it's really, as I say, the the sinister part of the whole book is that there is this. This should go by. Who is just criminal. I mean, if you think you get the bricks of Roger to both fell. That was able to get away with all of this get away with it. Yes, the it was incredible to me as a reader of more current murder books, written Murder trials right, the sophistication of the trial in the defense that he had at the end. You are you call. But is it secular trailers, civil trial, that defense of insanity at that time were talking about six years ago that sophistication in that kind of defense and then again in in the like you said, he was a widely character that the Brickville could mount that
I was depressed- I was dominated, I was bullied and I was forced its six hundred years later. These defenses, I guess, are not so new, yes, no, no and not as close six hundred years later. Are they no, but it does have a right, and there are some of know, major parallels like you had mentioned to you alluded to that. That seemed to be that even though it's six hundred years ago that there are some parallels with what is happening now and what we seem to be moving towards, I would say in society I think, if the br, hello the that was shown in that era and what you see, which is going on with ISIS now is, is is so very similar, but with with DNA and what he did. Of course. I think it's because he was
mentally insane. I think ISIS. On the other hand, there slaughter is simpler. They really they just you know they're out to turn the world back almost to medieval times and If you don't believe in what they're saying you know just like with the Catholic Church, with the torture that they used with the inquisition. You know, then we'll we'll chop off your head and what torture you to do it well, the thing is it: it doesn't give credit to all the people although that were abused, sexually assaulted, raped again brutalized that do not be brutalize brutalizer. Yes, these is very valid, but if one one small, my new, a minute amount of women who turned vengeful, we would have an epidemic
revenge, as we would have a a legacy of misery. That would would rival what we have right now, so I you know I can't I I see that there is an but then again somebody could at about Isel as well, they were raised in a war zone for their whole life and given a machine gun at ten years old, you know there has to be there. Be a little bit more when he really did sit on the bellies these little children, hundreds of them and yet again, like a cycle path. Again, you call the book a cycle path he really laughed, and these other cohorts of course, didn't didn't. Do anything they continued procuring. Victims for this madman again, but when you start practicing go ahead. Communing with the devil and you
conjure up Satan himself again, it's hard to justify what happens later as Pca, see when you are practicing safe. Is I'm trying to invoke the devil? and meanwhile doing what you're doing with children again like a party like some bizarre horror. Evil party No, I I I'm with you. I think it's more. What is what the p t s d that was PTSD if it was some other illness. What I think it did was it provoked his latent site a past that you know from the time as a child. He was he had that. That being a problem I mean you see, when he was left alone in and no Attention to him and he had all those sort of feelings that I think brought out and no it wouldn't be the PTSD. It would be that the other problems that he had that would have let him go on like that.
And how they're certainly get you. There certainly seems to be a mental break, though you say he had a a relationship but nothing untoward with Joan of ARC and he was this honorable soldier warrior again exhibited some things when he was a kid with his grand father. That was encourage, ing That sort of thing it didn't seem? That unusual, but what he became and what he'd devolved into his is unbelievable. So there there seems to be a break after from war and certainly I'm not going to diminish the effect PTSD of war itself. I'm not here to say that you know. There's different was something to trigger this incredible, The two were from where he was going in his life to where he ended up. Yes, no, and I think we all feel that and no one can be sure now it's so
the centuries for one you know you just can't be sure, that's incredible well, this was must have been in go ahead. Now you can see the extraordinary thing to which I think with this book is that the people you know that that they could forget is that the parents of victims could honestly pray. For his soul and fast, which is the custom of that time for three days so that his soul would go to. Heaven is just amazing. I mean I think today you do not find. I I think you still do find some, but not as much of people. You know being able to forgive slack, that it was masterful on his part, and I think that he really believed- and we felt it important that he had this legacy. Obviously it was in his best interest to believe that he, if he did truly, was
sorry for his sin, of murdering all these children that he would be forgiven by God, and it was testament to the power of the face of these people that after hearing about their own children and their fellow poor, these to the slaughter and the delight in in reveling in the in the murders that he did and yet, like you say, incredible transformation to then forgive him. It was an incredible incredible story to be able to go from one emotion to ready the Lynch, this evil demon. Frankenstein two forgiveness. Yes, just incredible, I think I mean, if nothing else, that to me is almost the most powerful part of the story. It's very hot list, and quite strange as well. I want to
Thank you for coming on um and talking about Blouberg a Bluebeard. Pardon me brave, warrior brutal cycle path. I knew I was going to do that blue beard for those that would might like to know about anything else that you've written and if you have a facebook page or if you are willing to be contacted by people, how might they do that they can? I do have a facebook page, it's probably the best to do it on the blue beard, page Also, my website is blue beard, the book dot com and my email address is there and I'd love to hear from people. That would be great. I want to thank you again for coming on and talking about this incredible story contained Bluebeard incredible read and thank you for this interview. Bluebeard brave warrior, brutal cycle path. Thank you very much, Valerie
thank you so much for having me it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank good night. So now the program is over, and that means it's time to get free snacks at your door from your box with over one hundred options to choose from get the bold flavors you crave, feel smarter about snacking. Go to naturebox dot com. Slash True murder start your free trial today that naturebox dot com, slash true murder, goodnight.
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Transcript generated on 2019-11-05.