« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers

BODY DUMP-Fred Rosen

2015-09-09 | 🔗
The author of the true crime classic Lobster Boy now turns his investigative skills to the chilling true story of Kendall Francois, one of the most bizarre serial sex-killers of modern times. In October, 1996, young, pretty, and petite women began vanishing off the streets of Poughkeepsie, New York. Most were prostitutes and some were addicts. By August, 1998, the toll had reached eight, when a prostitute told police she had barely escaped being strangled by Kendall Francois, 27, a 6'4", 300-lb. middle school hall monitor whose slovenly personal hygiene had earned him the nickname "Stinky." Inside his house, the smell was worse, as investigators discovered a tangle of rotting flesh and bones - eight female corpses, almost all decomposed. Francois was sentenced to life in prison without parole. BODY DUMP-Fred Rosen
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer, true crime, history through murder, with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. The author of the true crime, classic. Lobster boy now turns his investigative skills to the chip ring true story of Kendall Francois, one of them,
this bizarre serial sex killers of modern times in October, one thousand nine hundred and ninety six young, pretty and but meet women began banishing off the streets of Poughkeepsie, NY, most prostitutes and somewhere addicts by August, one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight. The toll had reached eight when a prostitute police that she had barely escaped being strangled by Kendall, Francois, twenty seven, a six foot four eight hundred pound Middle School hall monitor who slovan, personal hygiene had earned them. The nickname stinky inside his house houses. Smart, Smell was much worse as investigators to covered a tangle of rotting flesh and bones. Eight female corpses, almost all decomposed, the book that we are featuring this evening, his body dump with my special guest journalist and author Fred rose and welcome back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Fred, Rosen, hello, Dan. How the heck are you tonight very good? Thank you very much Fred for doing this sets again. Are going to be a great show because uh this is another uncovered or another incredible tale. So let's talk about, we had spoken last night, so I will let Let the audience know that Jennings that everything was that yeah. Well, I just we just have to admit this week. We spoke last night in the entire conversation, was about the gate and will king on that folks, we just want to let everybody know that we're going to have on Brady. Okay, just let let you know this stuff. You know this is a combined international operations. You know and we'll go in, so we just thought we let you know this stuff. I'm sorry in a serious stuff we're now working on. Yet
With this, you know what yeah go ahead, Sir, no, I was just gonna say you know what it is. I learned this years ago from some. Cops and prosecutors than that when you work murder cases, if don't sit around you're going to go nuts? You got a kid around. You know I mean you can be. You know one of that's one of the hard words. When she writing a book. Is you know the cops are not going to tell you the jokes. They said you know what I mean sure, but because they're just trying to keep alive- and because you know they are affected emotionally by the cases the good ones that's when they saw all those cases. I don't know I just put my two cents in on there and that no, I I actually I spoke. There was a bit ticular case again in my in my where
was a recorded version or a reported version of a police officer. In this little out of context, recording was that he had no regard for the murder victim and they were. Really pumped warp yeah but as You know, as I've learned the years in, get reinforced, there's always two or three different sides to the story. So a police officers and noted that it was posted, said yeah, but here's the real story, and so the real detailed story was of a cop saying yeah. This is so weak. All the gallows humor and the reason why even even there was I was on my way out. There was the Joker's even said, and so what next Okay, so different, you, no man. That makes a great point You know I mean here we are in a situation
you know where it doesn't make any difference what the case is as soon as it breaks, and it's about murder. You see it all over the place without having the so versus, checked out and so forth. And then what happens perception because reality, you know, and that makes a man does that make it difficult You know when you're investigating so thing whether you're a cop or whether you are you know a reporter. You know, or maybe one of the avengers you know hey. I got that in there. You go sorry put this book, I'm not start with this book, which was interesting, is that in our conversation we just Touched on something that normally we don't talk about so much, and we really, nuts and bolts of the store, and we certainly will to this one. But I
ask the first question is: if you want let why don't you explain how involved you we're in this story? What you had to do you talk about having to move to this town tell why before, and you talked about ask me about how I got some of these interviews or the people. I had to speak to and the idea that we were going to run your boat in african american serial killers, so tell us a little bit about that before we start well. Let me just say to people that it's wonderful, that you're listening and because Dan and I are able to actually communicate before, We go on there and we're not setting up stick. Would she do? Shall we do with other hosts? What we're doing is we're actually talking about how we're going to stay. Your time in the information we're going to give you and so
happened with me was that when this case broke, that is when Kendall Francois with captured, and he gave a confession which he said he killed these women and What happened was I happen to be living at the time. About three miles away. This was a very, very unusual circumstance. It'll happen again, and nor do I want it so because it's nice to keep this stuff. You know it at at, as you know, with the arms planes, but what happened was I I read this and it said you know this. Dude was captured, who is a serial killer and blah blah blah, and I said Jeanne man you right true crime. You supposed to investigate this: So I went from where I lived to Poughkeepsie and
sort of looking into it and I did a proposal on the book and I sent it into the publisher. But what happened was at the time it was so horrific, tin. All right. I've never worked on a case that involved more than one or perhaps two victims, yeah two difference. So I said all man. This is not my cup of tea and it and simultaneously, the other thing was that I had been told by by uh off I'm sorry editors. At two different publishing houses, major publishing houses at work for the never touch a case involving an african American. Here- I had a guy who was accused of being african American, a serial killer. Who was african American. So I said well, you know what I do
really care? What is race is a good story, looks best and I went ahead with it and originally I wasn't going to write it former student of it was going to write it, but he couldn't do it at the last minute. I stepped in an I am. I wrote the book and in order to write the book, I had a problem and that was that it was hard to get people to talk. To me about it? So I got a job teaching at Marist College in Poughkeepsie New York for year during each time. I taught it there right now. And I went out on the street and I talked to the people involved in the case animal I don't know yeah. Well, you know want you know this was it's. You know it was It was weird I don't know what else to tell you
I mean you know it would. With close to me. You know what I mean I mean you know I mean we talking serial killer. You know on this, you know true crime, more there and this dude is almost in my Backyard. And he was a bit ticular You know he is nickname, was stinky guys. I mean? You know the original title of the book was stinky and I guess thank God. They, the the that isn't changed at the body. Dump yeah You know I mean this guy, I mean just think about that. You know you know it's. It's really strange in the older part, actually has a lot to do with what happens later on sure. Well, let's start at the begin. Because we talk about Poughkeepsie, but we also have to talk about highland and then its connection to the gypsy and then how small is high
really what this book gives you represent, because that's the you know. The crux of our story here is the not the divide, what the contrast, I would say. So, let's talk about hi, Linda it's small population and then the bridge from board will get see and the different the difference See you know something I have to tell you something again. I knew that we will can. Obviously we wouldn't be doing this interview and it happen I still live in the area and I I could go down from where I live to New York City to take the tv show per investigation discovery right, I went to Harvard you know and I down that road. It's it's! You know for a long time are w in New York, state and thing is Highland is a very small, very small town.
You know. Water main drag basically sure the people still say that ninja, and yeah highway main highway and there is a string of hotels there still there, I
I look for your third day in these hotels are eager to priced too still the same. You know and of course, that and then what happens is when you go a little bit further. So now you get to the Poughkeepsie Bridge, which then goes across the Hudson River to the city of Poughkeepsie, which is on the EAST Bank of the of the of the river in what's called the Hudson Valley now that city, it's not quite as city, that's where it gets confused, There's the city of Poughkeepsie and the town of Poughkeepsie Dan. These guys must be up all night and stuff. You know how do you figure this stuff out? Ok
in other words. Now you got yourself three different police forces in the same place, you got county, you got city and you got town and that helps when you're a bad guy like Kendall, Francois who's moving from one to the other, and when I say once the other folks, I'm talking one city block, ok, wow. So so you say what we're saying here is that you have a serial killer, was able to operate porn, Please call our search yard retreat. The core of you know whatever these arbitrary. You know boundaries that have been made for tax purposes. You know so you know this is this is the place? that he was working in an I would. I was teaching at the school
cool and I'd go out, and I you know after I teach an And in the afternoon and ice You know right around and I would do you know. I started to do my interviews with Bill Siegrist. Who is the we can it in charge of the investigation, who's really responsible for bringing the serial killer to justice. And what would happen? Is he and I, It would go down to the Hudson River. Think any river could be the same Lawrence. I don't care what it is and uh you know, could be the Mississippi the video Ohio and we go down and you know he get into the right down. So we get some really good sandwiches and I talked to him and he would tell me about the KEN
press one, and he told me all about how you know he he started getting into it and so forth, and it just took about a year to get him to trust. No, you start off introducing, of course, the victims, and and then for what information you find out about these poor souls could end up. First. User with drug addiction and then this low prostitution and the first talk in the first chapter. You talk about Wendy, Myers, Grand. And so she has to she gets a ride over the Hudson River here in typically tell us a little bit about Wendy, Myers and her little bit about her background.
She and well I mean like a lot of the One of the commonalities that I found when I eat I did my research into the backgrounds of the victim will prostitutes with that. They all have problems and eventually those problems led them to drugs in the street, and the part that I really found interesting was the fact that in most instances where you school look that prostitutes. Excuse me as second class citizen, so then that old and interested you know I mean they. They don't have right.
Other jobs, they don't pay taxes you're, not look that is being regular person. And it takes a unique personality like a bill c Kristanna Jimmy Ayling who to the cops in the story, two look at these people as human beings and then by doing that they were able to eclipse there similar background again. It's going to be drugs, you know and leading to prostitution and take it to the next step, which is to find the new did it and that's what I found really nice, which was that you had people that would do this.
The we will, for the sake of going through all the stories of all the victims and not to just brush over their lives in their deaths in this story. But this talk about can francois. This guy is going to talk with you said, he's a stinky guys, a huge man, but you go back into the book and talk about his earlier life at the even at the time he was living with his parents, so you now you were talking about his early life. Tell us a little bit about candle France, one well one of the problems. It hurts and is there one of the problem? If your case is that the perpetrators family s not meeting the public state regarding,
So therefore you know you go with whatever the record, so what we know for sure is that he grew up in a with his parents, and his sister in this is to keep seeing New York, and so we know that they work. Is that what he did with the bodies wish to dispose of them in the house?
and I get into that. Obviously the book and, of course the real question then comes in ok, you're you're, taking seven bodies 'cause the earth was never discovered and you put him in a house in the middle of a count. Ok, ok,. Hey people next door- and you know the other people smelled something, but yet the family never made any. Statement about, you see what I'm saying about smelling anything now, I'm not implying anything whatsoever. I'm just stayed, watt, we know as public record so user. So what we have here Is the situation with this? Guy is growing up? we don't have
section we don't have much in the way of background we just don't, which is the same. You know, but we just More with you now is that he winds up go and becoming a middle school monitor we're not talking about you know you know, a guy from deliverance we're talking about I've got bring, but for some reason he asks the problem with all. And there's no incidents that, like you're, saying he's this guy also he's an intelligent guy. So we're not with this. This he's got this appearance he's a huge man. Thank you, say six world war, three hundred pound. What is he had an incredible hygiene problem, and this is a long standing. Hygiene problem continues through his entire life to end of the story here: yeah yeah,
you talk about being taunted for being fat in overweight, so he he search. Wasn't he didn't have an idyllic life growing up, but he, like you say you know he doesn't amount to something. And there's no real incident in contact with police, in terms of him being as some kind of creepy. Hall, monitor type guy. Again that's a very very oh, my god, I'm wow, that's an incredible, Folks, our hosts just pointed out that there's no there's no evidence whatsoever. Where did the the killer, personal molested human being? This is
and you know I hadn't even thought about that. But that's excellent and that's true, there's nothing there. However, there is not, however, however, which is that, oh boy, when I, when I was researching this story, We, the dude, wound up in Hawaii in the 1990s in the army. I you know more in my fantasy Dan comment. At any point, I was ready to call Steve Mcgarrett on Hawaii five O. However, since that doesn't exist uh you know I just made a cold for the.
Wind Fleece Department and the reason is acting. How will because there was a strong months, all serial killings of women there at the far end candle currents while served in the army, they never got and I got information later book was published from somebody that You know- and you know how it goes. You know you know when they bust you for some for serial killing over here. The cops with their toilet more often than not it's something else, but sometimes it's it's. You know the gym with this. It's interesting, too, is all the we're going to be taught
about the polygraph incident and what's interesting well bad, you could almost go off on about one hundred pages on you How many cases hinged on that? How many police officers take that as for eliminate a witness and there's scores of books? That would be the case. Well, my god. He passed a polygraph for flying colors and with We will talk about later. Let's first talk about the MO because again when somebody is looking at crimes in Honolulu later, if the M, was not similar than that's going to be something that's going to eliminate that as a possibility. So let's talk about stinky Zemo and what was he interested in life when he was a predator. On the streets of gypsy yeah and it what we know and the reason we know this, because he confessed and then the forensic stacked up
the situation where they really didn't want to confessed. How boy uhm of the do Frances between the town and the city. It was a different. You know one Police was caught 'em for stuff. We get in the other jurisdiction, they interrogated him, but they didn't interrogate him along time, which is what they should have thought. Ok, yeah. He get his much information if you can um, but in any case face space they got well. They got very, very lucky boy. I didn't say that yeah they got some advice from the I mean it, it's an unusual. You know what here I go.
This is my my shoe sensation and then all the people. That is me in the past, on your show for saying something about the FBI. To do it again and what After the way the FBI gave them into gifs see eight some advice. The FBI said he set up a roadblock which they you did and as a. This is all actually. In this particular case, it worked a prostitute in a sold that by Kendall Transport, Sh Gate and was able to get out of this house and, by coincidence, run into roadblocks And that's what started the whole investigation going.
Which essentially included archaeologists you talk about. We just talked about the questions, so will do that and then we'll go backwards because he does confess otherwise, no one would know a thing there bill bill, Seacrist Is this key character in here too, and we'll go backwards to is how close with Cantella and and the dog search that they had the rescue? search and then bills ideas in in in retrospect what have been done before if they knew, if only they knew so, let's talk about when Francois is captured. 'cause we talked about that already. They do. They do an interview, and it's again because The jurisdictions there's different police, doing the interview, rather than the people that were black bill that were pounding the pavement, so these people maybe mistakenly but end up.
Luckily later they do this interview and just ask him about this. Rape of this Diane Franco And you have a right to know they have a road block and then a gas station agents as yeah this users running down the street right. She said she was raped by this guy. So tell us about that. Well, the scene used before with then I just realized. I had the answer. Your last question, which was down, earn, you know, in terms of God, I'm losing my trying to fold here. No, just in terms of you know healthy, you know, one of the things that's really interesting about. This is how it was covered. Ok, how do eight women, hello
find a hearing almost the streets of a major american city. No police is word, I mean that are cheap. You know, and one of the things that happens here is because close friends want this long is a known John. They bring them in and they do a Charlie Brown. Why did the truth, the temperature and what happens they say? Well, she have anything to do with any of these women just know. I didn't really do it.
This is a primary example: warning lights, in your words, not allowed those at at t students even to order for the course the hey Kay a sociopath, Ik murmur and lie and get away with it on movies machines. It seems like it show um cheap. What was your question, but the thing is it continuous with that bill. Secrest regardless, regardless of that lie detector test, doesn't believe he does. He doesn't let Kendall Francois, work in terms of in his a suspect. You know what I look at this guy when we were having
at lunch lunches to earn your hearts in the river. It was like one of those things where there was something sorry, your own There was there was something about the sky, and I try to get that into the story. Then he was gonna. Let this guy, you know, get a walk He didn't. You know it wasn't a personal thing, but he I like the idea he was your old friends was based. Becoming his finger in the eye of the cops, and so he just kept after, even though he passed the the lie detector test bill had enough. Really it wasn't Steve
just use humanity you he passed a lie. Detector test I'm gonna keep going and it was in a situation where he you know he didn't. Didn't violate his constitutional rights or anything like that. You know just kept. Looking at you know is this to do you know it? It's I don't know you know, maybe I'm wrong again, but I just don't see that very often that kind of dedication to duty. You know me well, there was he has a personal connection as you talk about in the book He warns. I mean it's it's a sad story when he warns a girl that he knows did he knows it, but you know again you talk about his empathy for these people because it
it's demonstrated in saying: hey, listen, there's a guy on the street! Here you better watch yourself Contina. You're doing you know and she ends up being. You know victimized, and so he is that kind of person that understands the plight, that of these people, and he understands that. Despite lie detector test. This is a hard boiled cop that says: I'm not. I just have a gut instinct. So again, it's very much like we something out of the movies, where a cops something like that, something in my gut and what did you just get that in fiction? Really, because that's not what they're really trained for they dismiss stuff because they have to they have to go evidencebased. It can't be going on got instinct so much yet this guy! Still doing it so when they do get France One a room, despite those other cops soft interview, it's still, he still has this guy as a source. And luckily I guess, all that enerji all that focus Francois. What does
You have to tell the audience what Francois does after this little interview, where he's basically he's waived his Miranda rights. So he will talk to these guys. The. I'm gonna write it out. Then they get him to tape it. So they think the more he talks more details is he's going to sink himself and bill secrets is really wants. Get to that house and that's what you talk about our book to you know he just to bring those dogs over there. I need this 'cause you just certain in his his own heart that this guy is guilty.
You know, I'm listening to what you're saying I'm going. She that's exactly what I tried to write help you know did. Thank you saying. Is I don't well let me just back up here and just say a few things which is working in idle. Think there's ever been a really good, true crime for a really terrific and I'm not talking about anything I might do, can look at New York, state and I'll. Tell you why? No! No! That's not actually true! Sir Super goes a great book by Peter
Ok, can you put the difficulty is that when you're working in New York state the nearest this feeling that is such a little place? That's not kicks it's! It's the direct office, in other words, if you want to get information, keeps incredibly difficult, because it's really a very conservative, so you have to keep digging and digging and digging
tickets are really what's going on in in in the case of Bill C groups. Who is the detective on the case on he? He oil boy he would not give up even when the lie detectors was beat, look like, in other words, that that candle Francois was saying. I did everything to do just
hearing life picture said yes, so you just kept them and release finally arrested after a prostitute breaks, free from you in purely by coincidence they have the road block up, and then he gives statements with. Please secrets just wants to get into the hills, which is what you're talking about where you live in the send dudes in with 5x suits. You know, it looks like something from a science fiction show define the bodies. Oh look at least look for the bodies in this house.
Yes, okay, that's it! Your signal is really not great Fred, we're sorry! No! I just died. I'm surprised it's! is that, for whatever reason I it's not a great signal right now, though I'm I moved there, we go yes, so sorry about. That I just go ahead kind of lost. The signal here will get get back on track here, yeah Dan! Yes, I pulled it. It's cold, editing! Buddy! Yes, ha ha! Yes, absolutely so, yeah what you
saying was the in the interview when he finally is finished with these police officers, but then calls the officers back into the room to tell them to confess, tell us about what he says and how says it, and why do you think he even said it? No boy! Why? Well, you know, why does the serial killer confessed
something I think that there's a certain time. You know this certainly is starting and the, and they had a meeting with you get now. You know that he got a look at that. Well, what he has done, and one of the things that we find is typical. In the case of serial killers, is to have very low self esteem thaw. So you know one of the reasons they do. What they do is to attract attention for themselves. This isn't something that's done so that they're going to you know, go on the Iraq SW. You do this in order to call attention yeah it is.
Certain amount of you know the man of steel involved, they figure they're, going to get away with it uh. I just realized something Dan. I gave plug to a really bad DC, comics, ok, to get that, but they think they're going to get away with it. You know and they are not, but they have that ego that makes me think they are. He does exhibit it a strange person. The the in that that he again he's not okay, so I think he cocky. So he says I'm going to have a lawyer here. So I'll answer, some questions, yeah, and so then they don't really push him, because they don't ask him about the other murders. He knows
he's a suspect, but they don't really push him. He calls the cops back in and says, listen, get ahold of the prosecutor, and I want to see some photos from ninety three and they go ninety three, that's incredible because they thought, maybe start killing in ninety six, as is as far as they know so, they're excited. Then he takes for photos out of the bunch, is Wendy, Myers Gina, boron uh. It is yeah red marker. So it's all the victims of Sandra French. So it's all the blinds that or at least four of the victims that they were missing women and but it's he is any doesn't go on to say to brag like some of these people or to really revel in the goron the detail. He is very unique.
In terms of serial killers, I would say in terms of his behavior right then, and there well in terms of just that behavior. I think I think the murders themselves are not so unique and that's not so you think, but just this that one point of him and but then not going on like some guys, one to publish books and and rubble in the details. So and again there was no rain, but it wasn't a good guy confessing or anything. That's not his christian upbringing came out or anything, so I just thought that was very eye than unique. That's a really good perspective. I I don't know any other things any other way to say that you know that's a really good perspective on it. He is. You know in anomaly. Anomaly was an in many ways as far as you know,
see you soon. Ok, yeah one of the things. I remember that was that really you know got me. You know going with how the FBI or you know their their profile, it's a white dude. You know everything is uh oh, I see you know, and I I couldn't get ahold of it. You know it's like Excuse me. Why couldn't in african American be a serial killer? Well, there there telling secrets to go after awhile. Sorry guys, that's not what's going on. Are you? You know? Well, there's profile as you talk about in the book is really profiling is end up in you, explain in the book about unorganized and organized and that's been repeated and we won't get into that. 'cause, that's a whole other book of people's egos and people to make money where they never made any money before. I think it's. What this profile is.
Actually is just so vague and so inclusive and include so many people and have really just what secrets than these other officers looked at it. No value, no value whatsoever. Oh yeah. In the end, India It was a lot of luck. I mean, if you're, going to put the confession. Diane Franco running away from the gas station and she wasn't going to try to run into the police is arms, and you know they had a couple of close calls. But what was again it's crucial that they find out, and I mean it's heartbreaking for the victims, families to find out what this you know: stinky, did with their loved ones. You know he paid for sex at some and he figured it wasn't enough. Huge man, even just to be laying on top of these petite women, and then the choking came in. He was a strong enough man to break their side the highway point bone, and so when he heard that he was a very efficient
Killer you talk about how he again with his parents live, in the same building and neighbors, had five bodies up in the attic and he said well, it's a little crowded, let's start put them in the crawl space. You know what, and what do you say? Okay, you're, so you know what? If I think you should be a you should work for the crown, but the you know one hundred and fifty you can only use it like a prosecutor or defense all right. Our solicitor wanted to yeah. But I can say that right sure sure. Well I mean I love the prosecute some of these people. Well, you know why you hit something there when I was
in the corner. Oh my, when she Francois was sentence be cause. It was a deal. Uh an what happened. This was pretty damn interesting. See it's only about fifteen years ago, right. And it would have It was I'm sitting here and I still can't believe it. I mean they wrote see the the law in such a way that serial killing did not qualify for death right? I am not making this up for okay. This explains why the New York Mets have gone since one thousand nine hundred and eighty six and haven't won a world series. Now
Okay, what I'm getting at is that what happens here is that the district attorney in Dutchess County with this crime recruits he's trying to what Porsche to get this guy yeah and it's a waste of time because hey man, you got the log, you know you don't like to change it at the today they make a deal, they give trance qua life without parole. What that allows is a sentence in sharing with quickness impact statements from the families of the victims. I was in the courtroom and I have never heard such a sex testimony in my life, I I was each year,
anybody. I think anybody would be in tears. You know and what that got, would that's what made me realize. Yeah for people who who writes your crime, books and report on crime we're not doing our job unless we make the individuals as we reported on them into human beings, that is prostitutes, are usually looked at by reporters in the same way that, Many cops do which is a lower order of life, and I am worked real hard to humanize. The women were the victims and I was
Very happy that I I felt that I succeeded. I even went to the cemetery. Uh at least one of the victims. You know where she was buried, then you know- You know, I don't know, I know what saving and I just wanted to feel it. You know well, the thing is the indictment continues with journalism. Because again there have been cases where certainly the killer killed the other people. That would be, I mean the police state it and they don't state anything they're. Not so certain of. Why would they and so a good true crime book, an in depth, true crime book like yourself, where you've gone there and that's? Why I totally supportive of and want to want to present to the audience books that are full length that are
in depth. If it's five hundred pages to cover a case, then it's five hundred page book with three hundred, but it's certainly not condensed versions or you know, there's there's uh a place for those things, but I think there's a thirst for knowledge, and I know this audience has given me enough. But indications that the more information, the better the more we get to no wow the case itself I mean you have to. I mean it's everybody's interested in the killers obviously remember the killers names, that's who we remember right, but to understand the story and that's what the fans want to know the it is. The entire story. It's all it is it's. It's just history and it's just harsh history. It's harsh reality. And I'm sure it's all right on it. When parents read about their loved ones in the book, it's not the nicest thing, but they're, probably not. Got any enerji to be reading your book, that's the person who probably won't read it. You know-
But there are other people don't want to know this information. I I can comment on that because over the years I certainly had occasion to talk to. On many occasions, the victims, families and. One of the things that I I found with common in. They would well I don't One is the right word a couple times. They said is making money off the death. And I remember saying to somebody on a book that I did cold needlework to work about people. Somebody got kill up in Michigan, and this person said that so why? You know you making money off my my sister getting killed and I said gee I said. How come. You gave an interview to the Detroit Free Cars Then you didn't think twice about that. What the heck is the difference in
and you know, and that's the point you know uh, why? other things that I've always felt about. True crime is because we're writing books. It goes I We said it goes into our you know, Library of Congress. What's the what what's the problem in Canada in what your congress? What do you with this special library yeah? I can't tell you I can't. I can't offer the top of my head. I probably can't tell you well what I'm getting at is simply that when you do in this truck, ok, And you know it goes a core. I obviously goes, of course, international wines and there's a lot of responsibility to get your facts straight, because it's going to go into you know it's it's it's certainly on the internet all over the place, and so what
with whether it's here or there or whatever it becomes the. And that his character around you know what I mean, An you know in the library Congress simply means they're going to they're going to show a book on it. Now in Kendall, France watched his. I have to say that the last thing I ever expected absolute last night. What to do is gonna die, I mean not. You know in terms of why he I mean on a last time I looked: everybody dies, I'm not sure of that doctor strange, but that's another story, but I did not think this guy was going. The dice as soon he died- oh my god, less than year ago, in his early forties. And I did not find any.
Oh boy, I didn't you know it didn't make much sense You know I didn't read the autopsy report. I don't even know if they did one, but you know it was apparent. They said natural causes early 40s. I don't know what else to say. Yeah The thing I know, let me look when I said: I'm sorry, no well I mean it's, it's some people were to see him live out his whole life and in this eight by ten, some people would have liked. To see something else, but again we're talking about an investigation that. Finally, luckily I mean only knows how many more victims, if this victim didn't get away. I mean this this guy had certainly you know. The group pasetti and the need and the want to be able to do this, maybe not with every single prostitute. But you know his is killing seemed to be,
liberating and oh, you just made a good point, and I didn't make the point you just said it. The killings were accelerating. Well, you could see this all that from your book. You could derive that, Basically everyone of these victims. It seemed already knew him, so it had numerous encounters with him all. And then they get to the encounter work. You know it's not working out so I'll. Never forget you know. I gotta tell you something. Again it isn't very often you know that wind up living close will one day you say: oh, you know you know in the
you know I owned. I wonder house, and I actually had a worn- and I said: oh, you know what the only one I'm gonna go down to keep seeing the checkout candle french work, but so I get the car you know when I go down there and now you know he's already in jail and everything. But you know I I I want to go over to the house. Oh man, you know it it it. I guess what you're thinking you know, use this part of you that, thinking. Oh my god. There should be some. You know a big here you know finger in the sky, pointing here or something, even though you know better than that and you know what all it was was just the house in a very nice neighborhood, My dear happy, it was a. It was a detached house. Single family.
Oh man, it was two stories plus the attic in a crawl space underneath which of course, can go. Employed Ann you've been boarded up, be cause of what happened, and you know somebody came in and they bought the house at redid the whole place you know in the inside. It's older the product, you know talk about, kill, uh. You know the system work, I I thought that was hilarious. You know I I just couldn't get over there. You know one things I learned at some point in the water and writing books. Is that yeah? The card is that you know what gets on the the war,
all the e, you don't get it or with any sir. It features there. You know what I mean right and that I mean that's like spooky to me. And uh, but you know, didn't make any difference here. You know they were able to sell the house by that time. Of course, will the forensics were done and he was in pretty. And then you know he wasn't getting outta right. You know that was gonna happen, but we're talking about some very deacon posed bodies in house. This is, and that's what you say- the archaeologists have to come in and eight eight. Similar looking out, similar small women down on their luck. One was bound to be was just set to be a grandmother, really sad story. When you talk about. Her name was Kramer, her last name was Kramer, but her mother was good.
Be a grandmother and she skilled and then a couple days later, her her daughter had what would have been her grain. Her first grandchild the other footwear siegrist worn The young girl can eat a you know, there's a guy on the street and then she is missing. They you know you talk about because there was people that survived and based on the confession. So your book takes us right into. How what did he do while he got in stinky got and everybody news he had a hygiene problem. They didn't want to do tricks at a I also want to make their money and then, when you talk money, I'm glad you put the facts, the some in there just to let people know this, that this sex trade work is twenty dollar dollars Sony Golf walk with just with whatever. Yeah you're, not talking uh. You know,
right you know you can just it for inflation. It doesn't make any difference. You're not going to come up with a lot of money. Now I mean these people are just survive And you know the again talking about it and I think about it. I guess what always bothered me was. You know I went to yeah. I went to one of the victims lived in a town. In the news, let's the eastern part of the No nice way. I don't know how to drive. I don't know eighty miles whatever do I drove out there and you know you know you know you can figure guys. You know eighty miles. Whichever way you want your house is, it's still, you know, drive.
Yeah I'll. Never forget that an I looked up and I don't remember which one it was. But it's the thing is for me it was the same as another not found the victims. Picture and local high school yearbook. Then I made a copy so that I could have it. Can I thought to myself somebody get from here, 8k miles over there and on the street showing their body. You know. And there's a lot of reasons. You know that was you know, that's another book. I think you know, but you know this, but what was very clear. Was that Francois? What is a smart predator vantage people
And when I am, when I say took advantage, I don't mean just this: the sex for money that goes on every day and we're not talking about it right. This country sure I'm talking about murder. It's be cause of the fact the the of how these women are looked at that they were able to disappear on a regular basis for two years before the police tip to what was happened, let alone the local press, which I don't have any uh excuse for quite frankly, because they were disappearing on a regular basis. They know what was going down. You know and
You know this is the kind of situation being and where, if you're a what your local press, you know that this is happening. A report on it. Eventually it leads the guys capture, which is what happened. He won a Pulitzer prize. That's not what happened here because they didn't report on the left Yeah yeah. Well, where am I gonna, get in trouble again, then? No, no it it's the same story with the media, where I am in Canada. It's not a it's, not any different, I mean, but you know it's a reflection of society to It's a reflection of society I mean. Certainly the victims are vocal. The families are vocal, but at the same time, when you know the sad reality is there's a lot of people say yeah, which it jumped your loved one jumped in the car with a stranger in
and some of the same things like my god, what am I supposed to do? How can I protect you? If you won't protect yourself and so you know I never thought of it. That way. I never thought of it that way. Oh, my god, so that's what they're thinking huh Well, that's what it is I mean, but when they, when you see a cop taken his job home and he's homicide guys do in terms of there's a killer loose and that's their job. They run a task force to to to to do this. I mean it it it's professional, it's personal. If there really is anything, that's both and yet, at the same time, people are still conducting themselves the same way in the same way.
Knowing that the the predators there, because of their eyes, you explain in the book their addiction overwhelms on they have to do. They have to do what they have. What they're gonna do this disgusting dangerous? You know that they might. They know it's dangerous to go to a person's. I Johns home rather than a car. They don't have any back up system, they don't have a a person protecting them the police. Then they try to find clues when the force is missing in the family comes in and says, might my prostitute daughters missing again they don't make judgment, but then then you know the families right or wrongfully, say hey, you guys are doing enough that if it was a unit or US woman, you know so that's what you talk about in your book. You say: listen! The cop is in between a rock and a hard,
place yeah and then their only victory. Their only victory is to see this guy put into prison yeah. But it's you know it's a thankless job, but thanks to books like this audience like this, appreciates those stories. There's there's you know, Neil, have only law enforcement to understand these human stories. That's what I think a lot of people love about. I You have to analyze it. It's this all encompassing human story. It's a sad, tragic story, but there are will people, even though it's real that are still trying to do the right thing and part of it is writing about the right thing. The people little heroes in this. If there is such a thing bill siegrist. Another person made menane.
Yes No, no, I'm saying that you know I I I I just read this book fresh, so it is so fresh in my mind and it's affecting me as these books do these books affected for now, obviously that's they move on to the next one and get It again you know Dan. I just I just realized. Do you remind me up you ready, yeah sure, Dick Cavett pardon me? Do you know Dick Cavett? c a b. All yes, you have, it course talk, show we're mine, you take care of it. He was the most intelligent talk show host ever on television, so there you go
thanks for the compliments, I don't know about the Cabot actor anytime, but I'm thinking because you're really getting. This very interesting stuff. You know when you talk about You know, motivation. Your talk about who somebody is is a person, that's the channel when you writing true false. And you know, the funny thing is not talking to recently about this uhm a spoken to somebody about in cold blood, and they would talk. They were saying since that was negative about the wait. Capote did it and what the reporter, what but the the what I really
comes down to is when you're writing. True climb, there's a point. We are ok. You got this fact that fact, whatever, but you using the techniques of narrative fiction to tell your story, and so there there there is a tendency to go little bit too short, that is to fictionalize something without really having a back up to you see what I'm saying, and it could just be a little bit here in a little there and- and so it really is an area where the more you can keep your perspectives like a police or a good cop wooden good police officer, a good attorney. My nagger side prosecutor and defendant-
you're, going to get a better story, you're going to get a more accurate story. And it won't. You know in Mena, it's not going to be as emotional but you'll get it down a little bit better. You know what I mean sure yeah. Yeah, it's real, tough one, because I get affected by this as much as anybody else. You know like that. Got me. You know, I'm going to the grave or somebody who's been killed by a serial killer. Looking at the person's gravestone thinking about the person I never met the person, but I you know you know it doesn't make any difference.
And I you know you start realizing- you know the tragedy of this and then multiply it by eight plus. However many more this guy killed, which we certainly suspect he did, was he eager to talk to the media? after he was sentence. Was there any any? Any pot ability of having a serious interview with him. You know what happened was. What happened was he kept his mouth shut? You know most instances, you know your Chinese going to tell you to keep your mouth shut because you got life and at some points Somebody from the city of Poughkeepsie, a woman started corresponding within and and this person wound up doing a correspondence.
Over a couple of years. I don't know how many maybe was ten, whatever hey and you know To reveal anything you know there was nothing significant about any of this, And that was it and then you know, I think I and I remember the I don't know- the exact uh- you know we die, He died a less than a year ago. I think he was forty four and it was from quote unquote. Natural causes. You gotta wonder what was it, what was he? Look at trial Fred, oh boy,. I just remembered what he was like a trial here.
Oh, my god I'll tell you exactly what he was like, Uh I was standing behind him. I'm sorry! I was sitting behind him. You know, since you don't have the font. I was in the prosecution's buttons on the right side court. The Senate's is on the left side of the court. No I'm sorry! I got wrong. The then Dan was on the right, the the prosecution home. While I was sitting very close to troops while-
Is it shown coal, Tom, Hanks, yeah sure sure, what's the feeling in the prison Shashank Grocery Mile, the Green mile, the thank you I could be the guy that played the party he passed away to of the African American, in any case, I never seen a bigger human being in person. Will Chamberlain who is the center for this for the for sure, without and this guy, but will was sent. This guy was
Freaking huge. I mean you know he was sixteen foot in each direction yeah. And any any get this thing about the older. What was coming off this guy was: danger fear I I'm not I'm not reading into it. I'm just telling you the. Gods honest truth. Ok, this was not somebody. You wanted to meet the dark alley. This guy was giving off the most. I feel like. I guess. I've been in a couple of quarters with killers, and you know with serial killers too, and this guy forget about This guy was you know this guy, oh my god, it was bad, it was really bad and then I heard the oldest stories that the
Survivors relatives, you know it can make. Actually I don't ever want to go through that again again, you know what I mean it's just it's just too. I I understand. I begin to understand why it is that season detectives get to a point where they can't do this anymore You know, if you get your point where you know you can't push it behind you professionally. Pretty much of this stuff. What was the media response? I mean you talk about in the book where there was a a smaller paper. Put out an article early on about missing women in and nothing nothing, no other meat. I picked it up, they couldn't care less and the public was not outraged and they didn't
It didn't resonate with that either. Then later there was some an article about the missing children, the series mission, women in the serial killer on the loose after this was all said and done. The confession was sort of details. How did the local state media treat it and how far did it go and how biggest or did it become? I know The answer actually well, the answer is it didn't, become a big story by any means yeah it it it it it's now that you know now that we're talking about it yeah I was there. I mean I there are. I mean I experienced the local media, it cetera and and if the answer is yeah, it got picked up by the national media for five minutes, the local media now by no means that they,
except for this one small local paper, which I talk about in the book going through a bit which is good. The you know. There was another newspaper there, I'm not going to mention it. You know that was sitting on top of quite a case and they knew about it and they didn't do anything about it. And I you know a lot- I I I would go with that- except to say that you know you know either what built the dailies the locals etc and you're talking about in the area of Maybe- so let's say you went in uh, oh, how about a thirty five mile, radius right, electric dirt,
five miles? You might have a quarter million people. You know I'm not sure exactly, but nobody really reported on it. You know when it consist. Basis, even when they know what the heck was going down and chill and still you know, number which people know what was going down, that states that there was a serial cast for those tests was one zero killer, and but despite that, there was really no coverage yeah. You think about that that's like ridiculous. You know. Well I mean you know it's testament to because you know serial killers till just recently when spree killers of sort of replaced them as the in Vogue And you know this the emphasis in the media, because they are huge stories not to say that they're not but the serial key has lost, is luster a little bit in in real life. Maybe
Oh that she'll. You know, but it, but that's good the thing is if they can get a guide like this, this Francois and he's not even on the seer killer radar. Really. You know he's. I mean he didn't have enough. I mean eight bodies, Very serious I mean others, or even called house of horrors with a similar body, count will say in the similar circumstances of bodies in garbage bags. In a house So I you know, I. I always am astounded by how the local media is shies away from these local stories. Again, unless it's a you know, School girl that comes from a really good family, I think they're dead wrong in thinking that the audience the meaning the reader won't be interested in that I think there are, they would draw
For years and years- and I think they're more and more wrong- they sound very in terms of critical of certain members, society, where I think society has grown up and doesn't care if you're, gay or transgender I mean you can match, Five or ten years ago, transgendered person, was murdered. I mean the emphasis, or lack of emphasis or what they might say in a newspaper. You know, I think the society is they're out out of touch and I think they're acting like again like elites, I mean when you have prosecutors and you have police and you have a rescue teams and you have citizens that are interested in the stories and victims and victims, families. I think we're more of a product in the media. Takes I mean I just think they're wrong and I think that's why they're failing anyway, is there right off the mark. You know what I I couldn't wow I could never be that it and I agree: total
with what you say. I I eloquence is just I'm outraged because they don't. I just don't think they share the same, value, ST feelings as society, and I said they think they're, making they're doing a disservice and journalism is posted, provide a service they're not supposed to pick and choose stories which country is you know more and upon or or less important to bomb. I mean this is not the case or some people are less notable I mean they might have the agenda, they might have their biases. But again, that's why they are failing, because there's no connection with regular people and what they feel. I mean you still seeing hooker dad what. Why is one segment of society I don't think should be considered low life when you have all the lowlife in high positions
why somehow they have to put the word hooker. Why they have to basically humiliate the family when they VIC Adam and Eve in the are credible. Canadian judicial system does lip service to victims and their feelings, at least in America. There contacting the saying jeez. Is this d, okay with you but you know what yes it it. You know what again what? But you see, yeah you get into situations where
Hispanics dances on male ones of investigative journalism in the United States, surprising about sexual abuse, specifically rate women on american College campuses, sure, and this the chest x, they're showing our ash Dionysia yeah. Get snow discussion, except in a situation like this, where somebody like you is interested, and that is why one in four of coeds of going to the rate twenty five percent. Ok, yeah
What we call that I pulled out an epidemic. What is the government doing about it? You know what I mean. I mean it's it's it's a very, very, very interesting situation and what what we get into in Jack. It comes down to dollars and cents, because a lot of phones, niece campus situation, its athletes playing for big, but you did NC double a she raping when it okay, the fact. So what is that you know? I mean you know it. What it does.
Values, women and it didn't gel. You know and and and I you know we can go on and on, but you know I would. The thing is, though I would say that I understand your point, but I think I wanna say the I think the root of the issue still has to it can't be the government isn't doing anything because the government doesn't do anything anyway. In this regard account this is this a institution is it. Is it actually get an axe, certain things, but if society becomes a rape, culture has a sort of on a rape, culture mentality, I mean Ray is what's disturbing to me, is when I see a pedophile file again, I called him a pedophile possession child pornography and then the person is well not there they're, not a pedophile, they haven't committed an offense and then the next thing I see many times is oh now there are now someone's come forward and talks about you know assault sexual assault and rape,
so then those charges are there. There is a incredible connection again, not a distinct correlation. But a stir, Bing connection between the capacity to rape and the capacity to kill once was a rapist is now a killer, and this story, illustrates is as well once was, or fax and dehumanize people and then then became a killer. I mean boy meets incredible. That sax and sexual excitement somehow get all mixed up in murder, and that's where you get your sexual sadist, your sexual serial killer, so when I see rape on the rise at all over the entire world, and this Bizarre o war, rape, murder, that's the
again, a more even more disturbing question, so rape is incredibly disturbing and not because I can see that many times often times and it's a disturbing trend any we go anywhere under any circumstances, so but it's even more disturbing good mean, but now that boy, that's what you but my point, I think I think I lost on on this. One thing that I wanted to say, though, was it starts off not in that athletes are more prone to rape or people with money are more prone to rape. What it is is that the people with money, the people with positioned the people that maybe once to have a vested interest in in in having this guy, have a scholarship and go on to the to professional basketball or professional sports. They have the best lawyer. So again, some true crime. Authors
it was you know you just don't understand, they're just doing their job. I've keep going back to that point. If it's right there, it's, the lawyer does not take the poor black kid with no money go all the way to the Supreme Court on you know for free, he doesn't do it, but what he will do for a heinous. Criminal with money. Everything is everything he'll he'll put his arm around him. He'll be friends with him and then, any still a respected lawyer. I'm not naive as to what a lawyers duties are, but I don't have some people make me sound. I'm naive as to their job? Their job? Is you know it's it's. It starts with them and ends with them. Three lawyers in the room, it's a prosecutor, it's a judge, is a lawyer and there's a lawyer and that's the root of the problem. That's the root of the problem and justice.
In America, in Canada and everywhere they take fish. It's like a net it's like a net in the ocean of dummies and losers, and people on edge, And then they throw those in jail as like a business, they do it here too, it's not the mafias, not in prison. The most serious criminals are not in prison. So what are we doing with prison? Nothing when doing anything in we're? Not I mean, that's a whole other ballgame. What are we doing with prison you know something I will never ever forget watching Nightline with TED Koppel I don't remember what year was, but I remember that show sure and TED Koppel went into a. He was a hell of a good
journalists sure he went, he went into a prison. He went into a prison with it with his crew ABC Tv in Texas, and they wanted to this prison with. I think the guy was convicted of a sexual crime. Oh, my god this is incredible and what they she would reported on. That. They checked the lights on outside the cell 24th seven, so that within three years the bad guy wants kids crack.
And yes, and I came away from and maybe a walk by a year, you know, but basically that, but that's what happened- and I remember thinking yes, this is who, where life imprisonment is worse than that look they're, doing no, I'm not justifying it. I'm not saying it's constitutional, not saying this, I'm not saying that. I just found it interesting that what we're doing they were operating within the law. You see what I'm saying sure, and they did you know and. You know, I'm a warrant. You know- and it's now in that particular case now again as sexes, which, but you know it's not. You know on the you know.
Reporting this at the in the nineties, because well you know I I actually was in the town of store. We should start help me out of your body if you use the state University. Yes, I thought captain can't help you there. I would say, are you still state University in Texas? I don't recall the name of the town, but it was where they execute. Everybody right is getting hundreds of executions. I got to tell you something and I'm not I mean I was totally. Sober I wish stones. I wasn't this. I wasn't that you know, but I remember the vibe. Was really bad. You know yeah. I wasn't there when they were executing somebody. You know I I've never.
I've never been in that situation. I thought about it. I thought about applying to see it and so forth, but I just I Yes, I have two for some reason. I don't feel I'm gonna do it. You know know know, but but but it was very interesting to be in place. Where, again I was at a conference, it was an academic conference. And you know, and- and it was you know, it was in beach when. It was a weird Dana, I'm just telling man. It was just a weird one. You know I never been in that situation. You know I mean you know. It's very often. You know when you think about what I'm say
and I mean you know this is a place with it executed. Hundreds and hundreds of people vibes are not going to be good, you know, no, I would think now. No, you know what I think I better call on Captain America. I need some backup anywhere what seed Rogers doing these days. You know. Don't know well Fred, I want to thank you for coming on and talking about this. I know we tend to go off as we As we do- and I hope the audience doesn't chastise us work, but some people actually enjoy us going off on a tangent a little bit and just talking a little bit freely did maybe getting a leaving We even got into a little bit touch of politics and I know that's a taboo, but yes, sometimes we have strong feelings and instead of just sticking to the script, sometimes
but I wanted to thank you for coming on and talking about body dump for those that would listen to bill wanted to go further investigate this occur Story, you take us right into this very very sad and tragic story. Just you know, It's a great story where the police finally do get a break, catch. A couple breaks and killer himself decided weirdly enough to confess otherwise we would know the incredible horrible story, but you've cap, Everything you've got me going when I read this book is just again. I have. Vent for one slash, two an hour about the system. It's just an outrageous incredible stew, worry about fashion. Killer and the sad tale of all their victims. I want to thank you very much Fred. Coming on talking about body dump, it's been a pleasure
Dan, thank you very much hope to be back, and you know your humanity is what. I really appreciate thank you very much. Well really thread you've done it because you view bring to life, cases and you're a champion of the truth that's. Really all anybody really needs and that's what people are looking for. Nonfiction we're not looking
fictionalized, ation conversations that never occurred. We're looking for the the stuff where you pounded the pavement. You talk to the girls on the street, to women who ended up being victims or could have been victims. You got every bit skin, tell of information and then a fascinating tale that, after you read this, you just you're dying to look up another Fred, Rosen, true crime, classic for sure. So thank you very much Fred. You have a great evening and good night good idea. Take care yourself ideals, you too! Okay! Thank you. Connect.
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Transcript generated on 2019-11-05.