Styleite Lounge for Annie the moon lets you tickling the ivories he just saved by bundling home and auto, with progressive, going to finally buy a ring for that Gallagher. Is you go into my condolences? There's no there's in my because the castle's insurance company affiliates discounts available in all states or situations hi, I'm Jay, Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with the Quicken Loans thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate. All the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and one hundred thirty always finally here and so is only these big fall sale, get thousands of styles from his five bucks. All your fall. Favorites are on sale, now, layer up with five dollar teas and ten dollar long, sleeve tees for the whole family and stock up on sweaters and dresses for just fifteen dollars, plus save even more with up to seventy five percent off clearance. Styles, don't miss out hurry in for thousands of styles from just five bucks now it'll, maybe an old baby dot com valid ten fifteen to ten twenty five select styles online.

You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, in May, one thousand. Nine hundred and eighty eight in Everett Washington, four year old, feather rear disappeared. While playing outside after dinner, her frantic cries

who feathers mother to the dark garage that was home to Richard Matthew, Clark, Clark, hadst all the child bound and gagged her and begun one dresser only at the last instant, was the little girl saved by her mothers, desperate intervention. The next victim wouldn't be so fortunate. On the night of March 13th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety five Roxanne doll age, seven was abducted from the bedroom. She shared with Younger sister was not uh So the following day that her mother discovered Roxanne's disappearance a week later, Roxanne's raped and stabbed body was found. Evidence led investigators to a man. The family had trusted as a friend Richard Clark, Clark was a petty criminal, jailbird, alcoholic and drug abuser who couldn't control his pedophilic in homocidal homicidal urges in ape one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven after his conviction for egg Rated murder he mocked and derided

the girl's parents in a shocking courtroom display here is the brutal Harper, fucking, true story of the crimes and punishment of a monster who preyed on the vulnerable victims of all another of the determined process. Shooter who swore to bring him to justice. The book tour featuring this evening is broken doll. A parents worst nightmare. Come true with my this journalist and author and broadcaster podcaster, and the legendary Burrel Bear welcome back to the them. Thank you very much Venus interview. My pleasure always my pleasure to do your go and pleasure. Happy to my show was kinda goes crossover things that they have other networks. Absolute It's all my pleasure. It's one of the biggest pleasures to beyond two crimes on answer to crime and Robert and Howard will, and it's always

pleasure to have you won. This is about our tenth or eleven time now. So, if you want to know, we don't have a clue that same week for everyone, absolutely absolutely. Let's get to this story, because it's quite involved very heartbreaking story. This book came out in two thousand and four Burrell is at it. Yes, I believe, that's correct yeah. I was living right by ever Washington at the time how close for you to Everett Washington and tell us a little bit about how big or small Everett Washington was at that time or is well it still Well, if its medium medium size is that it's just north of north of Seattle, WA and us how close it was to Maine on the other side of the street.

On one side of the street is Everett WA. On the other side of the street is Muckle TEAL Washington, so it depend on which side of the line down the side of the road you're on which city you at the time, where this all took place was, no more than a matter of, perhaps five to set but as to where I live well. In fact, all of rocks and all's father. At the time I wrote the book live even closer than that will physically within all my, walking distance of each other on kredible. Now you open this book on May 28th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight when we talked about feather rate You talk about her mother. Angela Rono, and you open it right away with this incredible scene where her youngest daughter feather and it's nine hundred o'clock

in the evening in this little neighborhood, and you talk about there's a neighbors home, then there's the Roxanne's Our part me Rono home and her husband, Angela and her husband and the kids are out playing hide and seek, their calling cards in around nine o'clock. Right right and better doesn't come in and so she goes to take a look or where could she be? They have the sister you'll go, find you and she goes over to the garage. Were Richard Clark, lives, ladders mom's place, mom's real nice love, kids, and he just knows he's not here, and but the kid is inside. Well, when the and the kid here is her sister in size, she runs close, the mom, the bomb goes over spring on the garage dorial, my daughter ally, Mean goes all she's got here and then as the. Why

can't find the lights I'm going to sleep. I can't find a key finally bumble that, or open. The mother runs in grabs a kid. What she sees is the kids hands are tide with green socks their pants are pulled down below are bottom and the face is covered with tears. The kids saw, but, of course she curious. You know my god. What was it like? You have when you do it, he takes off running two guys were up to look for other cultures. You have and him and cash tonight that quite too much to get him because he's running over when the cops arrived she's there beating on his just screaming at him. All these two guys just said and watch he just do anything to protect himself from her is just standing there better stoic and things, go downhill from there, both for him and for better. Get me by the way you talk about feather and she is questioned, light

She is only four years old, so she's questioned very sensitively by this detective Snider. I believe officers now it and he she basically communicates to him that he touched her not put his hand down her pants but touched on the outside, and I, like we said in the introduction, probably got to got to Richard Clark just before he did something much much worse more. He is charged as you write in the book he is charged and what is he charged for wild middle, something I want to buy I have been clarified. You were reading at the beginning of the show of what I believe is promotional material for the book, probably off the back of it or something that sound piggly familiar, but I know I didn't think I wrote that the body of the text right basing his pedophilic urges he does not qualify as a pedophile, a pedophile and so on

is only attracted sexually to people who have not gone through puberty prepubescent. Richard Patrick Clark was not a pedophile He was, however, ACE because term date a situational child, molester no situational- God. Blesses are usually not sexually motivated. Even if sex is part of the molestation. It's all about power. I ran and this plays very importantly into the story and what what happens Brooks and all is it situational child molesters beings? The issue is power and not sex are at Julie, incredibly easy to rehabilitate pedophiles the a different story. The most profiles don't do anything wrong. Anyway, it's a very small percentage. The best you keep. Fantasyland, but the situational child molester.

Usually once they understand. What's going on with them, selves go all now. That's a stupid thing for me to do to deal with this and that's it. People get the two of them abused and in what You call a moral panics or whatever they tend assume that every child molesters that a file that would go to files John Miller, we're not as stable as true, unfortunately Paul others, ample Richard Matthew Clark when he was arrested and sentenced on the situation was better receive one year it is Snohomish County jail which is located in Everett Washington and putting someone in in jail, may protect us further behavior while there, in well for that year, because absolutely nothing to rectify, whatever is going on in his head. This cause him to do that

as we have. Our conversation will find out more. Why he's so screwed up, but there was nothing. No, no tree but built there no talk with the critical. Psychologist or psychiatrist have anything to deal with these underlying issues. So when he was released one year later, he was exact, do the same as he was what you want in it, except probably worse what about clear that up? You talk about Thank you and you talk about two about rehabilitation, and we have to talk about the both sides of this incredible story. Is that, right after this, Well, we talk about feather. She had been molested by own father abused by her own father when she was too so. This uh who invented four cent. Into rental, real estate sale storm so

it goes to live with a foster family. She was with a foster family, Julie, the or jail yeah and received a lot of stability in structure in that home, but she still wasn't rehabilitate and in any real given way, despite somebody caring for her. So during this. Period of time that he is in prison, but in afterwards what happens with feather ray here. Well, what happens with with feather is when he gets out and this sensitive Do we want a bowl rocks and all takes place and. You know the one of the prosecutors would like to show it to Cali plan with a where they the prosecution case. You want to talk to her. She reportedly it's out runs away. Fear factor, and it's, and I said now as an adult she's mad

he put it all this in the book, but I'm sorry. So I'm sorry. If it bothered you it's an integral part of the story. What I was talking about when I was getting too is that she becomes a troubled teen. Despite this structure in Julie's home she's, a significant trouble teen, and so she has this great in an emotional, devastating emotional impact, like you say, and then seventy years after that, there is rocks and all in April, eighth and April. First pardon me, one thousand nine hundred and ninety five. Now you fast forward to rocks and all her living arrangement with her mother Gail and her husband TIM if rig and tell us where Richard Clark is in terms of the neighborhood. Before we get into what happened just before

and the relationship that Richard had with the family, with TIM and Gail, his own family and distance little small little neighborhood, he seemed to be involved with in nineteen ninety five as I mentioned, it is not exactly a it's part of a larger metropolitan area. Don't identity is who had his fault, I'm very pleasant place to live nice school district is set for when I almost have to put this in perspective from the age of fourteen Richard Matthew, Clark. Never to my knowledge had a day where we was, little drunk or stoned, and if I were him probably, I would have been the same way. His childhood was absolutely horrific, as was that of his brothers and sisters. Now you can say

GG a lot of people have bad childhoods and and over do what he did. That's absolutely true, but not everyone responds to horrific situations. The same way he was extremely sensitive child loved. His mother despise his father kept him at all times. His father beat him mercilessly forced him to eat a cigar with to kill him his. We're up please, with his mother who tragic it was also an alcoholic could do sixty percent genetic factor there. When his mother died in a tragic accident, all five kids were split up insensitive from places he was sent to live with his aunt. This is Richard Betty, LUX, mother and or and whatever it is very those phases saying there goes to see, takes the child in. He goes to live with her and he is so trauma

caused by his mother's death that he cannot grieve. You can bring himself to cry, or mostly just associated locked out. Finally, with her he's comfortable enough, to break down and cry and hold on to her for comfort at which time get this she pushes him away and says I be your mother. I already have children and that's why Bob Dylan would say. The walls came down all the way to Hell that moment, Kelly went the way prison River He never had a day that he didn't numb himself with alcohol and drugs, and it was never a day when he didn't feel completely powerless. Abandoned and alone, except for those few moments- He could have power over some situation. And he had become a friend,

you know I want to appear to be a nice enough. Fellow and there's poop. He wasn't a pedophile. He was having sex with Roxanne dolls grandmother was actually close was his age and these people. So you is having an affair with the grandmother who was, but will do that agent and it was uh, sit around and drink, maybe, hi buddy with there with him. It is a friend of the family plus the fact that he sleeping with the gram. And so I did, and he was kind to Ok- and you know in general, like grooming or something, and so that was kind of the relationship it gonna be hung out there that right of the incident he was very active with Graham and up the mother, put the grandmother into towns 'cause. She want to go into town which wasn't all that farm and then

then I gotta tell you something that I don't think it'll take us in the book unless it's only afterward. My comments is that Richard Matthew Clark on. My investigation did absolutely everything possible to keep himself from doing what he did. He apparently could like what song is it going to have a seizure or something he apparently could tell what he wanted to do The seven year old walked around the old already was in bed at home, and so he did everything he could to not go back alone even went to the grandmother who just brought into town and essentially Beijing, to go back go back with him. This is no, I just got here: that's what he does. Everything find someone to go with him to keep him from doing it even goes out the nearby indian reservation. It picks friendly, isn't based him to go with him back to the dollar freak,

and I think it's Buddy Jimmy says. Ok, however, Jimmy is drinking and by the time they get to the dollar brickhouse Jimmy his passed out, cold, and so Richard Matthew Clark is all by himself and that's when things go from bad to horrific, you take us to that night. When you talk about Gail Doll, deciding at nine o'clock to go to the movie with her friend till or a ten o'clock, GO to a movie new about twelve o'clock, which is common place for them. Next door, neighbors, Andy and Kim close proximity, and then Richard Clark right by there and hanging around a friend of TIM. If rig a friend of Gail, they had spoken to him earlier. He had a van that he drove right. People did Nope if his past record, with feather ray here Did they? No, it wasn't something that was common knowledge.

You a buddy from before he went to jail was familiar with made by dope together and stuff, but It was unlikely the local pariah. You know Like I said he didn't get me help all it was you. Don't walk off the county jail for year and uh just got out. They were worse than it was when he went in. Ironically, I spoke of lamp to an expert on a young sexual molesters, our motivated child molesters, and you looked over the case. He shook his head. He said if we could have got this kid in the therapy. This never would've happened if they would have spent a year working with him psychologically chances are lux and all will still be alive. Service is pretty good

Within a cell for year quarantining the virus, the doctor racing it well. You have your at odds with what the way the prosecution presented this case later at trial and obviously there's a fair amount of theatrics and the tone of seriousness, an maybe even both sides, doing whatever they can to present their either client in a good way and then prosecution to present the in a very, very bad way. What you talking about. Actually yeah go ahead. Sorry, drug Dealer- Dan. No! No, but what I'm saying is that we gotta get back to is the what you have in the book is also you're contending that different things happened at different times, this was very interesting about this case. The defense, the prosecution

and then your version and your interpretation of this as well? Let's talk about, though, the April first itself March 31st, one thousand nine hundred and ninety five. You talk about the mom, the younger brother, with a brother and Roxanne watching Cinderella Disney movie. Later TIM had worked all day was a hard working guy. There was talk about him sing out on the couch. And then rich right. So, let's, let's go into sort of the events you Talk about him, he did everything in his power to avoid this altercation that he knew that would happen with rocks and all, but the prosecution paints a completely different picture. So, let's talk about what they, what they portray. Well, what for trade is actually what happened when he gets there by

Observations based on what do you do in the intervening time with your money, took the grandmother in his house, and he committed this or if they go crime. You even went into the active and doing shaved off his moustache should put his the ban up for sale. Now, that's what they say. Well, it is probably it never happened like trying to rewind the clock I mean: is it really a sick guy evil or call monsters if it came from the of other dimension. Dehumanizing happy with someone pull a little baby boy and his his life. His soul is everything's, been Oh totally, perverted this, probably not I'll, be a male because you'd beyond the beyond, but it's just so tragic, though the whole thing he and TIM. If a doll. Plan on going camping together the next day, along with some other folks

and you've, been over there, you don't hang it out drinking coffee, smoking, cigarettes or two who took the grandma into town. Tim goes to cook something to eat. Falls asleep on the couch, the house, those are smokers. Wife comes home. I shouldn't kill him from. You're such a mess and stick in the house. Up you are correct, is a hard work guide was pretty tired. You knew was getting up at among godly hour of the morning, to go camping with Richard Cars these other people, and this is what tragically do you know? Where is the guy who stole our daughter, he's out camping with Father. I mean it is so twisted. You know he comes back with him. Let me pass out of the van and he takes get out the bedroom window. And that's it for that poor child violated murder body dumped interesting in the book.

So there is a most horrifying photograph of Little Rock SAM's dead body, yeah, partially decomposed, and so will say. How could you put such a horrify? Off putting nightmare inducing photographing your book that would write insistence of her parents, while her parents wanted that horrifying picture of their daughter in the book, They provided the picture. They wanted people to know what was done to their daughter, which is the entirely opposite of how most people are when talking to them by the book. Is they don't want people to see? what happened to the big kid you know, but in this particular situation the parents wanted that everything non everything show.

You hand out sorry go ahead; no, no I'm lost anyway go ahead. You were talking about, the situational molester that these not a pedophile but still for people not so concerned with the terminology. Right at this point we have to talk about they did fine when they finally found her, and this was a week later There was a massive search. You said this was a huge search for this young girl. Seven year old girl up a frantic parents you do add as well there's just something that really was uh monkey in in this case monkey monkey wrench in this case in that, when they that Roxanne is, is gone in the morning. Just after the men have gone, camping.

And with a little boy, little brother advises the mother that Roxy's not here that she claims to the police. Come to question her that when she I'm back from the movie, she checked on her daughter and saw her in bed at just after twelve will tell us what proceeds with Richard Clark in the questioning of the parents and what unfolds quickly as to who might be the purpose. Here yeah it does get. If we also talked to the people next door and you're. The right figure that you know he's gone into into town, which is not that far away. You know that so everything is fairly close, except for the indian reservation. An it does make it. He said she picked it and she thought she saw Roxy. But then again

you know you pretty good the Rumer. You see the bundle of she's in you know you just regular some, you don't see a you know the covers pulled back of the bed empty, and so Zero was pretty sure that you she seen that either we blob prosecution. It makes a big deal out of it timeline of all this. I thought it was problematic. You know they tried to silver the gaps peaceful. She saw the kid here. It could have been him. It was the defense approach. If I remember correctly it, which I thought was Show your tattoo take one thing about rider. True crime books, as you well know, is when your look, being at a situation with fresh eyes and you're, not in the middle of it. You will know but things are the other people, don't notice see things that other people don't see, and I think that was the situation. This case, I would have gone with the pipe in the pen security.

I guess you do with your. He tried to show they couldn't have generally wasn't there, the timeline so fit well, they did. It was just a peculiar tag to cake they uh. You know we did go for mitigate you know the end of the live savings, but I mean the whole thing is so horrible. Finally tragic there is not a pleasant note in this entire story: in anybody's life, which was one reason I was compelled to write. This story is not because it was her station sensational, because of the multi levels of multi generational tragedy involves there's just so for treasure, like you're the writer. I can't see the point in different words of Richard Matthews. Clark's life was horrific, tragic uh, mostly shut down and give

worse every day, this horrible perpetrated on a dolly. Every family is something that noise ever going to totally recover from you cover for the loss of your own child. You, in any way ever and so that that pain is always with you and whatever people you know can take hoping or whatever, but it still has to cross the mind of that the what what she had to indure at the hands of a man that she thought was a family friend known, serve years of age and up it was just the story of hey this guy today search for mothers, old girl in Valley cash, but center in prison. That's one thing, but don't kind of like porno, This can be entertaining, but it does is that they have a go. You know an ethical boil, ethical lessons anywhere along the line in the core to get to is

my ledger, Jack Olsen told me he says any true crime story that does he get it to? Why and the? How not how? till what time do they show up? But what are the factors that led to the How can we learn from this at always been my goal? I've been unison virtually every book to class? But could I write is my purpose? to elevate the victims. Death to the level of sacrifice did something in there. Giving little live teaches is something to either prevent it from happening again tool. People how to keep it for the app to do that or what we need to do to make change. Is it how we deal with situations to get positive results, rather than more of the same? Now I know you're in a different country, a strange for land called Canada, which I have visited on occasion in the United States,

worldwide United States is famous for many things. One of them states you're paying for his We doing what would work and knowing it doesn't work but the most popular way of doing it. So we continue to do what does it work, which is Very strange, probably some sort of cycle is national, psychological disorder, but this so well known worldwide by researchers. The scientist psychologist social scientists libertarian articles about it? on how America chooses to do over and over again what is been proven to be totally ineffective because that's was popular For some reason, America we seem to enjoy keeping a people at a certain degree of lack of information, lack of information research, so the key doing things that are to their own best interest. Usually that's to the benefit of someone else.

Now. I could give you a contemporary example. If you liked who is there? Maybe we don't like I'll, go ahead and do it anyway. There was a. Here in California, where I live, for example, eighty four percent of the population receive Ohio that receives their news from television very poor way to receive news, but that's where they get it anyway, you could I was actually percentage was higher than that, but it eighty four percent of people interviewed, believed, did you crime in California, was on the run and had been on the rise she like forever. In truth, youth time in California and nationwide at the time he was at a thirty year low it's declining every year for thirty years, and yet, based on what politicians say running for office,

These were handled in the news. Is you thought the youth climbed gain crime? Everything was added. All time high and people vote. Accordingly, we gotta get tough on crime, were going to take back our neighborhoods when, in reality, youth adolescents, Images require more likely to be victims of a crime, then perpetrators at one, so that disconnect between reality and what was presented with striking extremely striking. Now it doesn't take much work or effort to find out what truth of the situation is, if you wanna do a little bit of research, but most people, don't they the news from radio tv and if it's complete, nonsense and untrue it been have most of the journalists who won't raise your hand and say, excuse me senator right: what's his name, what you just said isn't true TED Koppel who's very bc. Would the senator, whatever give some long we answer to go then absolutely pass

so you center, but my question was and get back to the point, so it America has this long stay ending problem of doing what doesn't work in providing false. The information about it until that changes? I have no idea. What's going to be, not much is going to improve Obvi, No, I know I got off on a dance dance. He tends it if we correct the title to do so. We have to get back to the weight, this prosecution frames is still an the weight. Readers are going to see this as well that this this friend of the family, uses this opportunity to be able to abduct child right under the noses of the family and friends and her own family, and then have the audacity in the nerve and this psychopathic ability be able to go camping

and some other docking and then again play the role. But you talk all right away, Gail Doll. Who does she think who other people think. Is the likely material they don't have the body. Do you think it's him. Why do I I creepy. Maybe maybe baby they don't don't, there's something Vibra Tori about him. Uh we figure. If anyone you know who would fit that fit that profile. Yeah, but if you press did you imagine doing something that horrific Ann, they could always say well, really. What I could think of is Richard radical. Are you also talk about that right away police around this and and before they get the forensic evidence back there. There they've got partial foot

fingerprints. They have dna their fingerprints on the window, they have the sock apart me. They don't have that yet they have in forensic evidence that go by and they have dna samples, and so They're doing that, you also have another incredible scene where everybody searching for the for the child to Noah sale and then two people do fine Roxanne all that is so horrifying You have to refresh my memory on that because it's been so loggers so unpleasant was scene, the two little my god too little young girls. Are. Are laying in the area and that's when they they see something that catches the light catches, your attention

kind of like all their the aside by the bushes or whatever, and they go take a lot. But it doesn't even look real, I don't think to live at first because it's not going to look like a person because he's been there for awhile and it's. What is that? You know. And when they come back until we have come to a we saw, it is god I mean it is horrified. I don't know if you've ever had the displeasure of fighting a dead body is the dead body of a child or basic these kids, fighting them partially decomposed body with someone Like their old age or younger, it is at absolutely horrific and the bone chilling and uh that's what they found it. See the picture in the book at the time they found the child is something else you would be wants to see little,

But yet I will match those kids, probably so traumatized by it and uh. And of course, Richard Betts O'Clock was a suspect what kind of a get go, because they keep track of these kind of offenders. He just but with that logs had been released with Snohomish County jail for his. No, his misbehavior earlier too this earlier and we would see also small in uptown that you see people around we were both messed up stone drunk there because he was fourteen. I don't think he had a day of sobriety in his life it was always numb numb to whatever feelings. You would have you have that the Roxanne's body is found, and so of course,

then there's going to be an autopsy and there's going to be forensic and they're going to process the scene for any evidence that they can find and what they do find in common is a sock again, a sock to bind on other socks. But at the same time, there's forensics, as I mentioned in the Van and then the there are witnesses to come forward to say they smelled something straw, change or sauce on blood stains, including cooperation from various people, but especially Tony and George Clark is not really his biological other, but anyway those people in his life and the so they cooperated with the police and had some questions for Richard Clark. What did they ask you about that Well, one was where you been. What are you? What are you doing? You know he talks about taking grandpa always will for grandma give the same age, it wasn't that ancient into town, so she could do some disc

but it has freaking and give Gore up the reservation Jane Jimmy L user is his good buddy, who was drunk enough to pass out And this is, I give a whether it will be defense right to play, offers full time line that the it wasn't him it could have been. Somebody else is that seems like a lost cause to me for the get go and, of course, the prosecution bringing into fed over here episode, Prob years earlier to cut a show. A common plant was ski team I was did work. All that well either. Is we get to later, but. It was one of those situations where. Yeah, what kind of guy is it's a guy who kid dance? Rapes

burgers. Your daughter that helps you go look for uh, there's just so bizarre that he's out going camping with the father at the time that the mother and everyone else is frantically looking for the missing child that it just is so strange so bizarre, it's almost like he's trying to create this alternate universe where it and where they going to come back from camping in blocks and going to be alive and well, and he didn't do it. Eventually active the fantasy active and doing it. You know it's almost with a desperation If I act like it never happened. It never happened that incredible. You talk about and introduce, did talk to Detective Herndon, and he asks Clark to take a polygraph and there's all kinds of sin. This is very common, but even though it's inadmissible in court police like to get people to cooperate and tell

polygraphs the term in that. So delivery is the being deceptive for he's he's being deceptive, but. So how do they approach? How does Herndon Approach Clark? What's his approach in dealing with him in questioning? Am how does he do that Well I'll tell you about Lloyd, hurted really like Lloyd. Super nice guide was very cooperative with me. Happy? You have your house and and meters praise all this stuff during the course of this is very strange. He was a patrol cop You know, and he wanted to be detected, he wants it being the youngest head of detectives in Everett in the history of the city due to a a retirement by somebody else about these shifts in personnel. All of a sudden, this young man.

Who never wanted to be a cop in the first place, interest rate, not food, didn't like the police, who is a social worker who is convinced to join police, because they had a new program of community policing and they wanted sensitive, liberal community a binder people to take those positions, as as police officers, a deal at a very friendly way with the public. Well that program about a year or two and bang no longer funded and now he's a regular cop on patrol being a police officer and uh, and then he was a big head of detectors for a minute and a half by the time. This whole thing goes to court. Her, and it is no longer a detective- is back doing patrol four years ago. Cracked cracks the case to solve the case, the bad guy and he told

because you know why I got a bullet proof vest to the root cause of the ball proves that the front is to protect you for the perpetrators, the clerks on the street. The back is to protect you from any other police officers. So there was a problem. Is there internal issues about? Did. Play on him psychologically to a great extreme and and pops are under more pressure than an astronaut anyway, as the dangerous job, ultimately boring and terrified And uh it it played out Reddit severely and in which case I believe, you want to get out of they want to go to. Iraq actually and train the iraqi people. So what you would be paying eight king's ransom but Did you get permission from neighbor, please to do so, but a lloyd heard and at the time that this was taking place, and I think it's because of his background in

community service, at as a social worker allowed him to establish what kind of bond or sense of trust with people that in this case, as you know, noted, were very well in dealing with. What's up with every but involved, including Richard Back to Clark, and it wasn't like an attack where parts could who's already closed off emotionally is going close off more, but rather using reflective. Listening and empathy made himself less threatening to Richard If my memory serves me well right, we can to talk about right after this break. Talk about our spa. Sir Casper we're going to talk about the rules that one agent Vander Berry played in this attempt to

pull one over on Richard Clark, kind of unusual and never heard of that before. But right now we're going to talk about Casper Casper is asleep. Brandon may expertly designed products to help you get your best rest one night at a time, you spend one slash three of your life sleeping, so you should be comfortable. The experts at Casper worked tirelessly to me quality sleep surface the cradles, your natural geometry in all the right places, reasonable design, helps you stay cool, and regulate your body temperature throughout the night. You can be sure of your purchase with Casper's one hundred night risk free sleep on it, trial, affordable prices, because Casper cuts out the middleman and sells directly to you delivered right to your door in a small. How do they do that? Sized box? I received queen size, Casper Mattress just about four weeks ago. It came in that real small box, but it was.

Credibly easy to unpack and right from the very first night. The difference with my sleep was evident Just a more restful sleep and my cast for mattress from that time continues. To give me a much better sleep. Get fifty dollars towards select mattress is by visiting Casper dot com, slash true murder and visit in using promo code to murder at Checkout terms and conditions apply. That's get fifty dollars to Ford Select mattress is by visiting casper dot com, slash truemurder, using promo code. True murder at checkout terms and conditions apply. When we last spoke girl, I mentioned that there was an unique route use my this agent, Canterbury to try to do something in Fool Richard Clark. What was that attempt and how successfully was? Was he with

we're. Thinking of the same thing, you know you're right, true crime book system was written to sometime ago. Does he tend to to mail today, but is this the situation where they say we have your counselor for you for bringing your counselor in absolutely yeah yeah? This is really weird how they thought they could get away with this, you're entitled to an attorney your accused with crimes to get the other attorney. They tell him well because he was an attorney so well. Your counselor is here he thinks supposed to be in legal counsel. It, though, is a cop is another detective pretending to like use his lawyer. Now, that's gotta be Krooked his health uh, I don't know I mean they tried to get away with that that that that as I've never heard of anyone pulling that kind of stunt before yeah? I I've been to do wanted to

of all? Perhaps it was loaded, I thought that was really weird and they did Yahoo, probably give it a shot. Well, the uh I could see was that they felt it was worth it given that they still didn't know where rocks and all was when there's two when requesting him, the still don't know where she is so if they think hey, listen, uh. This is, protected yeah. This is your lawyer that he might give up the information, so that's the only I mean uh. Basically, they're going to have problems, it's going to be beyond proud automatic in court at trial if they use that, so there's only has to be one good reason to be able to do this and that, let's us with seemed it seemed to justify that. Now with him, and we talk about this trial, this obviously becomes a death penalty case and very, very interesting because of your incredible coverage of all of it, all of the once you get to the

When someone is trying to states trying to take perpetrators life, then we hear the background story we hear of of the the childhood and the witnesses come forward to support. That in the attempt to try to save this person's life, and then council that is dedicated and talented and successful at getting people now. To be put to death are involved in this case. So tell us what sets up the what characterizes this trial. You talk about, Judge Thorpe, Tell us a little bit about the beginning of this trial and the the sort of scenario that surrounds it. Media and yeah well the death penalty in like war self Defense is the actually has a subjective, the taking of a life, This is about taking land self defense about preserving one of his life.

They're currently has graced the fact of the person to be executed, obviously, but it has no effect on other people too, and this is Well, it brought up when they get into the back. Mitigating this crime. This was horrifying crime and that you have when you get to the sentencing phase. You mentioned one to the death penalty,. This is something that has been at anything that mitigates the severity The client will never could mitigate to paint the rocks that dollars dead. And you don't have any situation. Where is it Clark? Doesn't pull one of these gee? I don't remember what I did. I blacked out He doesn't matter did say anything about that yeah, it's displayed that he did it.

There is no rational reason. Why, except for this incredible feeling of powerlessness,. That he has this is when they have to bring up what was his life like? Why Should we have any mercy at all. And they said the they're not efficient, mitigating circumstances to avoid a sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. There are so fish mitigating circumstances they decided before the sub death, although not at first, the They thought that there was a sense that he deserved. It would be life in prison and should me a but that's when they bring up the whole situation, how absolutely Rific his own life was

Of course, we get it at whole issue. Bolji, not everybody has a bad childhood Giselle like him, but not everybody is to say bag. Is a brother took to Syria took that feel while I'm not a child molester, not, as his childhood. He did well, though you didn't you had your childhood, you had he had his yeah, they weren't the same, even though the physical surrounding them with the same day with different people with different responses. They say his father was cruel beyond human comprehension to all the kids, especially him, and and uh, it was nonstop pain and misery. Is only company was his mother who died in a tragic car accident drunk as usual, All the kids were split up and said in different directions, and

from that moment, as I mentioned, when he broke down and cried 'cause, it was pretty screwed for the first time and pushed away. That's when the wall came down. And he was numb and powerless and mostly deprive but in the everything else for the rest of his life and. By the time he was imprisoned, there was a watching some tv show and the woman is being kidnapped. Her chased for angle who killed and he's yelling out Draper first, you know I mean he was totally gone Bentley. I would say emotionally by that all this was over with or even before, but that became a big issue back there was a uh, the old had to go back to again, a few years later, when I get there was another dispute over his sentencing.

More complex and you and I can handle on what takes place with the the Do this some mitigation and sentencing part of the trial more than twice that turns out ever why twice there to do like three times because it was always something wrong with it somewhere someday some illegality done and people have complained, all is some loophole in the law. There are no sis, I believe, loopholes in the law. There is simply the law and if you like it, that's it yeah there the law, is a way and things went down right or he was denied. Certain things are certain things to add spired, where we all had to go back to court a few years later. Then go through the sensing all over again and that's why still in prison with this day and not execute

although the they could have executed. If it's not that they didn't. What's the the most interesting thing to me in outrageous to me is again that any talk of of a of a perpetrator before after or we could have done this or we could have done that. We should have done this and he had a horrible upbringing. We still go back to feather ray here. Four years old abused by your own phone. There are two in again the influence of alcohol and drugs and alcohol specifically and people drinking while they're pregnant and that Davis Asian generational devastation and then we will have to live with past, foster parents and then incredible stuff that you have in a book where she begs these people. Basically, when she gets her notice, she gets this incredible notice from the prosecutor. Doors And he says: listen, I got some questions for you like. How did it feel? What did it feel like? What did he?

touch your body with what did he say? Did he do anything? Did he touch his body afterwards? What did he say today? So She has a list of all these questions and she's never recovered. You talk about. No him, never recovering she never recovered, and then this are into a panic. They talk about that. The psychologist, pardon me are pediatrician calls the prosecutor says, listen, this is having an probably negative effect on this woman impact on this woman think she might not be able to testify, and yet this in mission and given all the information that they did, have the dna, the fingerprints, all the circumstantial, I guess evidence they put together to The point in the direction all this misstatements and lies that Richard Clark did the alibis it never really worked out. They didn't really have much at trial at all. Here

he didn't have much of a defense. He was pretty. Well. He did very very very guilty, and yet they would Did this feather ray here who had never recovered from her rule it does seem cruel. Doesn't that yeah yeah? It is cruel, and the reason is they were going for this thing that I have seen so many plots with this girl, for that doesn't workout is his showed of his his part, a common plan or scheme as if it were it all happened. Same day, and it doesn't work as its. You know, throw away everything, including the kitchen sink at the guy, and let's say it's a common plan or scheme because several years earlier he did this to pour feather and then trying to get that kid up there on the stand. Yeah

locking a four year old girl in the garage stuffing in soccer mouth and tiger up is against the law in Everett WA. The probably everywhere else too it, enjoy with unlawful imprisonment, they couldn't get him on child molestation 'cause. He had molested her at the right and the whole thing last, the effect on her, if she say was his lifelong, I think she's. She still is upset she's upset at me for mentioning it but I thought it was important and everything was she is quoted, is taken directly from transcripts of time I didn't want to get hold of her and have her go through it again by me asking the same questions. So what I undertook is that thought is a way of doing it without her having to relive it. Once again was far better than calling upon the phone say: hey you wanna talk about it again. I didn't wanna have to do, but then she said so I should have put well. I was trying to be kind.

Because that'll hotter forever I've known other people in these. In these situations, like Susie, the oldest the daughter in the web family from my book headshot, where was multi interracial incest. Almost evil in the family either merit a child, molester or or could child molester whatever and doing all sister totally turn your life around and became a counter for people who suffer from the same types of things that she went through. And said you got to own your own life. You can't run from it, then what can you take from that to use to help other people but with my raditude. She help me great deal with the books and I pay It's the same way all these situations. If we have any purpose being here Ok, I'm trying to make it a little better place in the world before we landed on it. You have to

Whatever pain you web two would see. How could you use that to mitigate the pain of others and uh seen people do that, and I think it was incredibly admirable but maybe in a way that is being their contribution by being in the pokmon see I didn't make it go through the pain of living. It again, you talk about the death penalty too, and it's problematic, because when you talk about the separate phases of the trial, then there's a sentence, NG phase, and then they try to introduce this common scheme or theme. Common plan and it doesn't work because it's uh turn an appeal and that's why I get frustrated in that the death penalty is, there is a bullet cool pursuit on both sides? It seems both prosecutor and defense have their agendas and it's a strong one, and there you know formidable foes against the

each other, but then there's the appeal courts and then it depends on again politics a lot of time in those cases as well, but again they're always trying to drag. You know failed doll and TIM if Regen, family members and people that were affected and were you know right way. Gayle dollars accuse that's. The police technique is to cues people immediately to see their response and, regardless of being sensitive, to the situation a seven year old, was murdered, kidnapped under their nose and still missing, and yet this is what gets me is that these things just and I mentioned it not so long ago again, another frustrating case of delay justice delayed have for real to no avail? Really I mean not. I can't see the- benefit of this, given the tool of it. Really. No, it was was told

I have a very limited experience and actually being at the than anything else used. I'm doing. Okay, maybe try the ticket? and I've had numerous surgeries. Tell me it's not. None of this is about truth and justice It's all about winning if you're interested and get sent to prison that they don't care, that's not the idea, so the idea to find the truth. The idea is to win the case and another bits in horrific examples of that sometimes are rectified, sometimes are not. We have that wanted Texas, where the father was trying to save his kids from my house fire and he was charged with trying to hold them in the house, so I was dragged through the trying to save them. It didn't is totally made clear by investigators that, yes, he had nothing to do starting the fire. Yes, he was trying to save his children until after he been executed.

Our real. What you do in that situation is, you can do hello, please find the kids are. He was burdened for their executed for what you didn't do is try to save them. It just gets bizarre In the case of someone such as Geronimo Pratt you're in who was framed for, murdered by the FBI. In the LA prosecutors office has been to work, two thousand five hundred and twenty seven years in prison before they let him out and the Happy, I wrote him a check. Yes, we framed you hear that she, for a certain number of millions of dollars. Sorry for the inconvenience you go watch an people, I don't know, but I would imagine probably similar in Canada. It should Asians are remarkably naive as to the degree of corruption and duplicity. Within politics and the legal system. It is, and

I mean is far more shocking than than any dares to contemplate been my great It was a wonderful homicide. Detectives owns a wonderful, long, Forsman personnel in the writing of my books. That does not alter the fact that the culture in which it exists is incredibly cool up, and a visit from whatever angle is viewed. I pity pity that follow or woman who beat with a good heart and a clear conscience and the best intentions to serve their fellow citizens. Times themselves. In the situation of having look there living and what they're experiencing being a complete odds with the oath they took and the into You can say holding their mind in their heart. I think that would be devastating.

Hi Deborah coffee on by short or she put on your show with her story about being the first woman in the LAS Vegas Police Department and the Hells he went through, tragic and everything that was in the old, but she took the police off it was violated. Twenty four slash, seven and broke her heart brother to Jesus is, she said, there had to be severe, so that's are uh. But I mean I admire people who could go into the law enforcement or the legal profession an maintain their ethics in the face of everything that surrounds them. Let's get back to another dramatic part of the book is that at the trial, after this long

sentencing all this phase where the death penalty is announced, he is convicted. The judge asked him if he has anything to say, and he says he says yes, I do. I have sympathy for the seven year old girl what happened to her, but for the F family they are the murderers, and you said it was a gasp of disbelief in the courtroom. And you said it was quite interesting to TIM was outraged and he left the courtroom it Some have with him. What is going to land? a little planning. I was going to do was going to murder the guy. Now, why is thinking on TIM's part, but that

was plan that they were going to give the death. He was going to give it to him and How we got got it in there. I don't know it's, but that was that was his plan, I don't get it I mean. I can understand that someone is raped, my daughter I gotta go. I would be thinking straight either But you can imagine if he had hauled off and attacks Clark with a knife stabbed him to death. Then if we would be the same legal situation, pretty budget server should better Clark. So yeah living the whole thing is just so twisted. And so true, I guess it just multi layers of multi leveled Rific tragedy, with There's no happy person in this whole story. Lloyd, like I say, the the police officers who solves the case winds up back.

Patrol and kind of as a bit of a a breakdown according to his his former wife, I had a daughter, the same age as rocks and all, and so this is he said there. Why was he doing this case? I was at assigned to him he's a young detective Lee at a daughter. The same age should have gone to the crimes, his children, the vision, but it was given to him instead and then, who is demoted right in the middle of Everything was just telling the trial. The whole thing is is off kilter everything about the entire story at every level is off, I seem to be. Practice the cases where everything is nuts I don't know it's like in Head Headshot, where people like my old. So much about the trial so much about the legal stuff in the book?

Just because all the legal stuff was a direct mirror image of the insanity of the crime itself, it was just as nuts just as twisted, and it's just astonishing to me how bizarre things can get in terms of legal system in our so called justice system. We don't really have a system of justice in the United States. We have a system, of manipulation, and So if it would say we want justice for little feather. We want justice for Roxanne. Now I say: no, you don't that's nowhere. Justice comes in just this is for the person accused That's where you weigh the evidence, as we have justice is blind. Setting it with the scale to bring someone to justice doesn't mean to bring someone to punishment. It means to bring them To justice to weigh the evidence was supposed to presume innocence now with our trial by talks. Ok, so we have here,

the a presumption of guilt right off the bat for everybody, which I find upsetting as well I would rather air on the part of innocence that lock someone. The rest of their life or send them to the death for something they didn't do. I can't imagine anything more awful to live through that everyone thinking, you're horrible murder, when you aren't. That would be yeah, there's there's cases where right away the e area rapist original night stalker case where the one gentleman in his in his wife were killed and they thought it was a busy this partner, an arrested him accordingly and took about a year to clear that up, but the education is, it was ruined and that

that's especially young over him forever. You talk about two thousand and three in your apologue. You talk call Gail, dull and TIM. If rig, they were divorced, but you say they remain close. And again, a little bit of a bright spot. You said both he and his mother, the Alexander, have stopped drinking and you say yelled all remains in that same house where Roxanne was abducted from and Carol. Clark is in the same home that, where her nephew Richard lives as well. Yeah she was a little upset when he came home with all these bloody clothes hello. This suspicious I don't know I don't know if you could, I would probably move you know less the feelings I had for the the house was such that could overcome it. A lot of people. First, they a family-

member dies or whatever they good change. The pit go to cal. You know, that's the fifth really moving. Your body is going to physically change your mind, but I guess you move the body and the mind will follow it's yeah. There's always surprised that Gail, stayed in the same home were but maybe she does that as a way of honoring. Her daughter, I don't know, I don't, have and I haven't spoken to her since he wrote the book. They were incredible cooperative I'd say of all the people. Will I have go family members of someone murdered and then says did a horrible way that their daughter died. Both TIM and Guild Ult were the most cooperative, in telling the story of anyway. You could possibly imagine how do I eager for people,

Absolutely everything about. Your daughter about her friends about the the memorials they provided so many pictures and I was I could have asked for a greater degree of cooperation and help, from a family that I got from the dollar fruit family from work, earned it was exemplary. Also, I was very, very fortunate on his case to get the degree of cooperation that any true crime. Author would wish for. Absolutely had incredible access. You also talk about again, incredibly, that Gail Doll and TIM. If rig weren't, they were subject to criticism as well right from the onset weren't they oh yeah you don't a lot of bad is class prejudice.

I guess if you want to call it daily NEWS got tattoos he's got long, hair. The heck of a nice guy could follow up tails. Wonderful, but you know sometimes people. If you don't look the way you do or they don't rest the way you do or their you know social strata Not the same as yours, people are quick as well. If you build a better mother, if you been better follow this wouldn't happen, no one is that laid on them as if they had some influence over the Bayview Bridge. Part of me is that the hindsight twenty twenty you know of okay blame is only important to drunks and attorneys off of the same thing we had made it up, but that is true. People look for someone to blame, rather than a reason to explain, and two entirely different things. One person reasons another persons cheap excuse at all that who you are and whether people will.

That is a reason or whether all they're just making up excuses. So I felt sorry for them. The way they were created by friends and neighbors people are quick to jump in the make assumptions an probably to protect their own emotions. I guess. You talk about two important part of this book. Is the research that you've done about feet alcohol syndrome and related neurological disorders. There are damage brain damage, basically from the facts of alcohol during pregnancy and it's important to this story, so Tell us a little bit about what you found yeah and I work they decided now. The search was done actually the University of Washington Seattle many years ago, and I've used this information in several books on different topics who ones that to climb books. I work with doctor Rock, we're Mohammed on his groundbreaking? An excellent book

call the anatomy of addiction, which was my great pleasure to work with him on the earlier drafts of the book before it was published, and one thing we definitely agree that we wanted to have in that book. Was information about people? alcohol syndrome, then, the entire dynamic range of that there was research and study done actually in Canada on prison inmates and the the super majority of people in prison in Canada have fetal alcohol. Syndrome, Spectrum disorder, and it's not a matter of how much drink it depends entirely on them. Exam. The body chemistry of the mother. Some can drink and not have a drink, a great deal and not have it affect the child. Others of Two glasses of wine could cause incredible damage, so it's not worth the risk if you're pregnant, please don't drink,

have my getting pregnant drink. If you have a big brain in to drink alcohol, probably the worst. Another day in the in there was only have law where you could be put in jails, even thought that you smoke meth while you were pregnant, we'll be causes. No more real damage. There spoken in yeah. They don't lock up people up a thought of smoking while about while the president goes not a wise idea: alcohol, even in the most moderate amount, can be of devastating difficulty to a child it appears with their learning ability and primarily with the ability to perceive a connection between action and outcome cause and effect. Now that she's pretty obvious to both people, and yet like Google, don't they know right from wrong no from wrong. There is no that's not like your dog with instinct that tells

to do this. That human beings have very little instinct and a great deal of acquired knowledge Is right and what is wrong is culturally and socially defined, and someone has to teach you in these situations is appropriate. This is inappropriate appropriate, someone would be local syndrome's, great difficulty grasping, connection between what I do and what happens there so easily manipulated by other criminals, so they wind up taking the fall for people, because they're trying to be helpful and the other person is used in a Morgan am and so the effect of alcohol on the on the brain, even from the mother to the child can be have incredible. Social impact, there's certain things that we know for a fact reduce, time and criminality. These we want were willing to do

because it go against what we believe he is they're, not true sample legalization of almost anything reduces crime. Because it's no longer, Prime first of all and second of all, because it's no longer a secret people will get help for problems if they don't have to keep the Problem is secret. If it's illegal, they gonna keep it secret. But although we can't do that We also know that I mean talk about murder and killing people. Homicide, rational sane, human beings. Don't do that, so why? What is it? That's going on in someone's head they're going to do that? There's something wrong here somewhere. That is not going to be repaired by putting them in a cage. It protects us from their future behaviour if it's likely behavior, but the whole concept of the punitive model, which is you punishing. People into wise behavior has been

easily demonstrated to be a totally false construct. It doesn't work now I do be, because of head injury is a child. I could reply with that some aspects of the locals syndrome, because it's also complicated. I have never been able to comprehend the concept of punishment they like read about it. I I could study it, but it still makes no sense to me. I cannot comprehend it no matter how much I read I couldn't understand. I advocate separating of people who are predators from the rest of us. You know put the minutes somewhere else, but not here. I can see where the Lord bless and keep them far away from us, but I don't see how Punishing produces as it one with the other. That was will positive outcome and you could try to explain it

to me, but I still bought understand it. I cannot identify with it, but so ever, but I right true crime books. I agree with people talking about punishment, but this person deserves. And maybe they deserve to be hunger. Or locked up forever or is it that we deserve to be protected from this person for the rest of their life,. Well one eight were we looking at and then do two so by sending the president give them absolutely no rehabilitation efforts whatsoever, so they come out worse than they went in. I don't see the values of society of that at all have you ever been a an ex felon to get a job lots of luck. You know who's going to hire you and there's just done that you've already paid your debt to society for the keep adding interests. It just gets worse all the time. So it says my my soapbox rant for the day. At the same time, though, the book really

demonstrates and illustrates that, at the same time you have this person it's an advocate for FEB, here here here here here. Yeah and this is Julie Jail and they get it point where she. They have to have some order in the home and they're trying to give her that structure and they have to have these rules and she defies them in certain air if she's not as defiant or disobedient as she could be, but they have their areas of concern for her. When she says that she's going to hurt herself she's going to cut herself for carver, hurt someone else they take the I should have to take her to a psychiatric hospital. They feel that there isn't grounds to be able to hold her. We yet there is a point where she is handcuffed. You know, so I keep going back to most remarkable part of this book is feather rate.

Here at four years old. Of course, we almost seem to forget about rocks and all, but this feather, hey here Ray here, is the person that, throughout her life, has to avoid this Richard Clark and and when it who's back in seven years that she realized that somebody else is now been not just almost molested but actually been killed, and she does not, as she Does in the book she says. I don't want to remember this. I don't want to go. Back there I don't want to. She did not want to experience this one little bit ever again, did she no that's the reason why I didn't contact her for the book. We took all of her statements from. Publicly available records and interviews and stuff like that back hi, I didn't maybe one of those people who is going to call her up and say: hey, let's go over this again, but then that She's upset that I did so.

You can't win for losing, but this is why I started the book with each other. Not only because it's dramatic, but it shows on both the perpetrator and the the irrevocable damage of this sort of thing, both the perpetrator and the victim I've gone through pretty much the same thing You're, just a a lapse of several years between what was done to Richard and what he's doing to her at is all about power and all about powerless and now wanting to ever feel that way again and how deal with the? What do you do, like wood benches? Talk about promiscuity, sexual problems, security. When a lot of people don't realize is that for someone who's been victim or potential victim of sexual molestation,

be hit by a friend, family member, father, mother, whoever they all this will promiscuous every actor. Will you think of his promiscuity is a victory because who is making the decision on whether or not they're going to be touched? Who is making decisions that are going to have sex with that person? They are. It is their decision, and no one is taking that away from them. If they say yes is because they said yes, if it's no because they said no, they make the choice and that them is empowering. There are two most common responses. Shall we say to brother Sis? true incest, with that type of big families. This one is to become ice, cold, no sex with everybody and be you know, have that problem. The other Is it incredibly active sex life which appears to be

want them and promiscuous to others, but each act is affirmation that is your choice and the more after make sure you need the more choices you make remind me in a strange way of we had a fireplace at our home when I was a kid and my sis. Easter was nice rest in peace was ten years older than I am and said to be one day when we were both adults visit, my parents, she said children notice it. Never ever had a fire in the fireplace. And never had occured to me where his gorgeous, fireplace and look, you know fireplace irons and all that sort of stuff Why did we never have a fire? She says, ask dad, so I went by Paul dad. Why is it they're? All the years we've lived here, this lovely fire. We had a fire, a lot, her smile I'll, tell you what every day that I could wake up,

walking to the living room and look at that fireplaces heat is cold and dark. It didn't have to be lit, is another day of victory. One more day I did have to huddle next to the fire to stay alive like I did when I was child in Russia well interesting. So so it all depends on how you look at it. You know what what your life experiences coming from, I had to me he actually had to do the yeah, the huddle next to the fire. This little village in Russia, with the cossacks coming in and you know, shooting at kids for target practice You know who's walking down the street and they came through and killed. The guy he's walking down the street with blood is holding his hand or about horrible things. You took the seat filler on the roof of her Brazil, like that daddy said it was exactly like that, because Fillable hell of a lot worse and no one was singing yeah yeah. Where is

Richard Matthew, Clark now and what's his status, his status is, is much larger than it used to be uh and I got in Washington, state penitentiary in Walla, Walla, WA, my hometown and and he's awaiting execution. Don't. I don't believe him just leaving their flavor. Is a fairly young man, honey, no yeah. He was young at the time, but you gotta go back down. This is what that several years is just about ninety seven, not really gotten any better. You wonder what happens if somebody's people who are in there uh even though they don't have any rehab, patient efforts. Much I mean it's like trading it for something to you know for when he gets allergy should be a barber or anything 'cause he's never getting out of there just like summer. Other people like Kirby, Anthony up in Alaska uh

Richard a lot of people turn out to be model prisoners don't, but because that is going to be, there live for a never do I mean until they die they'll die in prison. How do you give some meaning to your life? How do you do something Project I'm currently working on with the Public Skate America coolest sixteen years in the system, and he brought the work or rehabilitation to the arts program into the prison, all sorts of positive things that were done for rehabilitation and to help people advanced You know where people can do positive things within a prison environment- it's just strange as it may, but they have to have there has to be some value to human life and, if you just take humans and put them in cages

And keep him well ordered that uh, instead of anything any better, not for the correctional officers over the staff. Other people in the prison there's a broken system. As you well know, the pinot this is, I don't know how it is in. And Canada, the United States, that is the treasure with broken system. Thank you. They use the punitive model, doesn't work separation for the sake of safety, works but uh whipping people or beheading them to their Vatican, stops everything. That's the story, that's my two cents on it. Yeah. It's it's a it's a very hot topic in terms of people, their their views. I think that people that will try to agree with the death penalty will have a longer explanation, but it will be a battle that will rage on and on.

I'm sure, especially when they read read. I love like this distant in the fate of feather ray here and these parents You can see that if you were to see these photos like you put in the book and if you were at this trial, you might string him up wanting death for this guy yeah, and then you get the situation so we went up to that guy, the string him up. You know Lynch in Galloway share up, and then I have we should find out. It was the wrong guy. You can't go, I change you then, and that's happened far too often,. You know what is it whoops sorry take two when you kill the rather definitely easier anger, the death attitudes about it and that is uh in favor of having the death penalty on the books and on favor about using it, which sounds peculiar? I know, but I think

should be there. Even if it's not used it's, hopefully not you, but still there to show a good. Years it's only supposed to use in the worst of the worst cases and it You didn't use it for this guy who killed a hundred twenty five people are a raped and murdered eighteen women and you don't use it for him. How can you use it for this guy? You know, I mean that's always the thing they bring up. Is it supposed to be for the absolute worst of the worst. Who makes that that judgment call and on what do you base being the worst of the worst? It's so I'm in favor of it having it on the books simply symbolically to show how Sevir acquirement could be that it merits taking your life and yet because the complexities, I would just assumed ever seen it it's instituted

You know I would TED Bundy already asked what he was in the Denver something it says. What's the state will be both likely to be put to death, they said Florida. Where does he go floor? Why did the weather you had a chance to get away. He went to the state border and he goes back and forth waiting for them to catch him yeah. You know. What's that about, he wants to get stop. She wants to ten federally leave me from this. How much could a guy like that suffer being DIS Quackle as he was. Yeah, so I go by the reader, not well Lord help of the Wolf man zero. If your whole issue those movies Why did your number one line of dialogue at all the walls movies

You don't understand true, we don't. We don't understand what it, but that's like they that room while turmoil. You know even if Andrews hardest, pure the says, his prayers at night can change the world Wolf. Well, baby that was going on. I don't know, but I sure don't want to live through it. It's been a fascinating interview, borough talking about broken dollar parents worst nightmare come true. That's say it you're, not sorry, I wanna do book cover original books. With all the parents. Worse, a parents worst nightmare come through, and then my name, if you look at the cover, it's takes a lot here is worse. They were going through abroad, I got a lot of raising about that. The book is come. You out at long last as an audio book it All this time has been available.

It'll it'll, like is by electronic. U book for your Kindle, your doctor will be, or what about all things out and also in print from Kensington, because even publishing hilly pickles who climb series but now it finally has a long is going to be coming out very soon as an audio up audio books, DOT, call will be available to audible and also several other reply. True crime books, movies now available is audio books as well we've already are, but four more will be soon so very pleased with the listen up audio books making the wise marketing decision to invest their time, resources and making audio of of of broken doll and three others of by true crime books. Well, congratulations is, and it's about time

also, you can remind people about your fantastic podcast. Every Saturday and available on demand. Obviously later about yeah, I'm on centre with how we're lucky to suit every week on a lot of radio. Yes, now in the previous manager to the star he's also a white manager, two shows up what doctors going right up. We're on this show is celebrating it's soon this box. Actually, I think, is ten years ten years of true crime, uncensored on alalreadyalive dot com every Saturday at two hundred o'clock, and available on the show's website is a player. True grab us dot com there is a player other right hand side with one hundred shows on it, although it certainly had more than that. Under by name on Mixcloud, bull burial, five Deborah shows on now at long last,

oh you're by my heart of our tells you to subscribe to it because of Anchor FM, which is certainly back together the last couple months, I've uploaded a lot of the shows variable the time to the last programs you can download through Itunes. On them from Ankara PAM is this look for true crime, uncensored on any of your podcast platform or looking up on online, and there is a horse by David Waldman and I baby me RAM of Donna force we passed away. Suddenly, a few years ago, but sure total shock, Howard, Lupitas same show, business manager and dominant for so. I just give up. Wanna vascular questions have, but we have a fact checker, which I think is important: Mark Boyer, researches

it does all research by listing to your program because quite often have the guests on what we do add He'll ask put out all the question You didn't ask. Absolute check, the facts and then we have. We have various guest calls come in from show business spell his actors actresses that produces such a right, hey good, so what we're dealing with true crime crew was a rod. Ships equalisers, the true crime shows yeah, you don't do it true private or you will comedy show that has true card. Yes. Well, maybe that's true. We just try to be entertaining and get the information out and help Roblox specially my yeah, you are the very first true crime. Podcast you've stayed around and vital and active an very creative for the last ten years. So congratz,

Asians on that occurred. Right. Language line is a program to get all that's what I've heard. That's what I've heard. I don't know myself. I pay a type of gold by now so fast. I can't keep track of. Yeah becoming covered monument. Thank you burl for those people that might want to just find out more about your work, you're on your on everywhere on Amazon everywhere, but you're also on Facebook. If people might want to say hello yeah, I think there's several bold, simple woman inside your I tried to use my name on Facebook to put a Verizon bill. You can use my name, you fake profiles and decided to be a fake meeting. There's a several borough bear size of is a fan site at author side. They want, it just says: bull bear and I think it went up pink shirt or something that's Maine and

speed up there to a certain degree, always post the radio shows on there. So you can find them here. Also, you can find true crime uncensored. As a fan page on Facebook. We go to our just what I uh uh did also burl barer dot net as most of my books on there a little bit about my exciting life, expensive website, to be sure, so I hope someone enjoys it, well. Thank you very much girl. You have a great evening hope. The talking you so much and it's always a pleasure being on yourself. It's always a pleasure with you girl. Thank you very much have a great night. You good, bye, bye, goodnight, Don't miss this Saturday, steel at old Navy, fifty percent off all outerwear plus graphic tees, just five dollars for adults, four dollars for kids and five dollars. Women stop acts. Three huge deals. One day only Saturday at old Navy and oldnavy dot com fell at one thousand, and nineteen outerwear excludes in store clearance, select, graphic tees and socks. Only.

The house of roll journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this, you'll see the details of your own story: the story of a life well crafted welcome to the House of Roll