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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. Do you think I'm pretty? No one likes me, I hate my life. I wish I had a friend It was a matter of fourteen year old, Cherokee Harriman, who, in two thousand and fifteen faced to alleged

bullies in a small Tennessee Public Park and pulled out a concealed kitchen knife. She drove the knife into her stomach as the horrified teens watched local media focused on sensationalism. Rather than truth, the word bull aside was used, meaning bullying drove Cherokee to kill herself. The story of Cherokees death flew through social media broadcast for all to see. Cherokee had shared her secrets online, where privacy disappears with a slight movement of a computer mouse a product of a family doing their best with little resource is Cherokee was passed through the mental health system as far as it would take. Her show. Through an overworked and underfunded education system supervise, my government agencies with no real answers. She was sent to stop bullying school programs, unprepared to assist exacerbating the problems.

Cherokee rose Harriman November, seventh, two thousand and two September fifth, two thousand and fifteen. The community began to question the laws and definitions regarding bullying should schoolyard please be held legally responsible for causing a suicide, can are a family history, guarantee a tragedy and just what is bullying anyway? Perhaps Cherokee's death was an accident. Perhaps there was a sinister truth that had yet to be told the book that we're featuring this evening is bullied to death, a story of bullying social media and the do of Cherokee Harriman with my special gas. Journalist and author Judith a Yates. Come back to the program and thank you very much for agreeing this interview. Judith a Yates. Thank you for asking me. Thank you very much very, very unique book. As I had mentioned, and I think very, very timely, considering everything that's going on

is going on presently and just recently. So first I I want to ask you how you came to be in a position to be able to write this book. Well, I was working on the book out of Memphis, which is called, she is evil and between that and the magazine that I editor de the story about Cherokee here. Local news and it was all over local news and I've looked at it because for some reason These photograph just sort of grabbed me- and I thought what in the world this is a sweet, beautiful girl. She just radiates kindness. What would make this beautiful little angelic girl do something so severe.

And I read a couple of the articles in and it just it just got me and I thought okay. I cannot look at anything else. 'cause. I try not to read anything else or look at the news or anything while I'm working on something, but for some reason it was almost like she was, is tapping me on the shoulder and It was ok, not right now I'll, look at this later and working on. She is evil on back and forth to Memphis, and it just kept tapping me and Finally, I was like ok, I will look at you know the. I will look at her facebook page. I will look at her twin tweeter. I that I would look at her tweeting and her parents, Facebook pages and everything else, and I just fell into it-

I that's no other way to explain it. It just it Graham made because she just had this aura that I could not fathom what happened how it happened, and I Would literally feel that knowledge on my left shoulder and I kept saying I am so busy right now and I kept feeling it and- and her family and her friends to believe because she did have such a strong presence that that was her tapping me saying, tell my Tory, and I do believe that, certainly Cherokee Harriman was fourteen and five foot three and one hundred and twenty pounds before we get to September. Fifth, two thousand and fifteen

go back to her grandmother and her grand father, which are such important figures in this book and their story in their background and their mothers. Upbringing is crucial to for people to understand. Story. So let's go back to read a coats and Joe use of heroin. There may right on June 29th. One thousand nine hundred and sixty eight in Illinois', but tell us about their getting together, where they were in terms of children. At that point already before we talk a little bit about life with Rita Coats and Joseph Harriman. Ok well Rita had several children when she met Joe, and she really didn't know that much about him and when they first met. He was babysitting some of the some of the children and his family and she was very taken because he said well, don't you have a little boy and she said yes and he said well, why don't you bring him and she was very taken with that that he took the time,

to say that and that he took the interest and, and they begin dating, she likes him and and eventually they marry and she said turns out that Joe is a bully. He has a drinking problem and he's a bowling and he's very mean, but when he drinks he becomes even more so of a bully. Now in that day and time women didn't file for divorce, they certainly didn't leave. She had no marketable skills as many women of that time. Didn't. That was just the time, and so she was really forced to stay with this man. And then together they had several children, so she was really stuck in the times and by the times now read is a good person she's a good hearted into

you have a lot of anger and resentment and a lot of depression from houses being treated Where is that anger and depression, and that was is it going to go, but also out on her children, because there is no wonder out, but you certainly can't he's a bully because now you're really asking for it. So it was sort of just one big vicious circle, and the children never questions Joe ' 'cause. They were already being beaten and treated very badly called names physically being beaten. Emotionally he was horrible names and so They all grew up in this horribly oppressive household and Heather, Cherokees mom tell me very bluntly. My life was hell.

And that was the environment in which all of this started festering. Yeah, you talk about this horrible language and I'll, just put it in there for people for detail, bitches and whores and sluts. So he had this no respect for his children and he was mean person, but you said he was in even meaner, drunk so drunk or sober he treated. Everybody has. We read out like crap? Definitely, yes, an album with exasperated the problem. He was here to Lee he bought did Rita. He believe the kids. Two, in addition to this misery, you also talk about the Eager income and then also as a result of this, what Heather experience that cool, what kind of names that she get she was getting at home. But what did you get at school as a result of this

your income, and how did how did it? How was it that she was bullied and why, specifically, right now, both of the parents, head? Blue collar jobs, and you know several chilled and they were really just peace mailing? It They were paycheck to paycheck and, of course, which chose drinking that's in a way a lot of the money we Heather here, Cherokees mother, you know she told me she said we didn't have a lot of money. We didn't have a lot of nice things and with Gmail just to stare, growing up in the house. You go to school and did you get called names? You get called fat and stupid and ugly, and you get made fun of you get made fun of because your clothes aren't as nice as everyone else is you get made fun because you know you can't concentrate in school because of what went on last night in your household, where you didn't before you didn't get it a meal before you left

So now you get called stupid or lazy and you get made fun. Because maybe you smell differently than the other kids, so really you're just being bullied. School now Ann. Now you go home to a bully and it's just this almost a whirlpool of crap. You know these kids are growing up in now they have friends that they can escape to that's really only to for a very short time, because have to go home and you have to go to school. What happens at fourteen years old for Heather, ironically, is wheel then later in the story, what does she do it? Fourteen years of age, and then after word what happens in the home after this is. This is a bizarre story. Ok, Heather Hedges. She had it up to here now, mind you she's only a fourteen year old girl, she's a child, and she

he's had enough of the bullying, she's being called a slut, an idiot fat ugly smell, She's getting that at home she's getting that at school, there's no safe place for her, so she's sitting on the couch, and all of this is just whirling through her head and she's thinking. My life is worth I hate my life, I'm nobody I'm nothing, and this is why I just ended all and make everybody happy. So she goes into the bathroom. She takes a handful appeals, chucks them down and waits to die. And a family member finds her take her to the hospital. Has her stomach pumped and she's put on suicide much now. The strange thing is when she goes home. She is baby by her kerns. They can't

enough for her. What is it that you want? What can we catch you we If you only care about you, please don't do this anymore more. Few days later, it's over and everybody starts treating everybody ugly again. The name calling the kicking the hitting the slapping dish goes to school, the name. You know the ugly words and she said to me it's as if they forgot how to be nice. Now you talk about after eight years, Rita gave Joe an ultimatum what was the ultimatum. How did he respond right? Mobile result, she tells Joe she's finally fed up. Reed is kind of getting her her own voice just a little bit and she says to Joe. You have got to quit. Drinking

you quit drinking or I'm taking the kids and I'm leaving now. This is big for Rita. This is just a huge step for her and. You know. I believe that Joe with such a bully that when you stand up to bullies- and you find your voice they're going to back down because they're taking it, the situation that you're you're small and your week and you are going to back down so and read it. Does this Joe does that he backs down and he stopped drinking? And after that he at Forbade alcohol in the house and even one of heathers friends from childhood, said if Joe thought you had been drinking he'd. Have you sleep on the floor before he allowed you in his home and he was sober. He was clinging that he was still mean. He was still a bully. He stay,

treated his crit kids like crap, he still was very mean to Rita, but I wasn't drinking but she meets friends, she socializes. She meets long, long, long, lost friends and and she meets in. You talk about a friend name, Abigail Fraser, which plays into the story a little bit later than there are thirteen years old. She notices things and talks about Heather and is with Heather all the time and grew up in in not great circumstances herself so she's. She it has a lot of empathy for her, but what did she categorise. Heather's behavior, as growing up guards to write we

everybody, you know how, when you're in school, particularly high school- and you always find a kindred spirit where you don't really even have to say anything and they know how you're feeling- or maybe your households are so much alike that free friend knows what's going on and they don't even have to say it. And they know how you're feeling, because they felt that way too. Well, that was Abigail and she understood heavy And that's why Heather loved her? So much is because she didn't judge her. She didn't call names, because she also knew what it was like to not have the best clothes or the best pals, but Abigail did notice with Heather that she was looking for love, and even Heather knew that about herself. She was looking for love boyfriends and she felt like if she could just find a good boyfriend who would love her for who she was, who felt she was the best

thing that came his way, who had give her hugs and kisses and told her. I love you and I care about you and she would be fine. She would be in a perfect world for herself and Abigail would say you know she was all looking for the right man and we she found a boyfriend. She sort of forgot all her friends, because she was so fixated on finding that someone special now when women do that or even young girls United zero point, nine percent of the time they're going to find the wrong one with really did. Yeah. You say that also that she was sick of being in the home, so she used There's also an escape route, and yet boyfriend name Ronnie and there were live with three others and Ronnie and what happens with Ronnie Ann

in terms of considering him this one. What does she overlook? Heather was trying so hard, and she told me this herself. She said you know she, he's trying so hard to get out from under her her father's thumb she quit high school because of the way she was being treated? She got out of her parents house as soon as she could and she's overlooking bad things. And that included Ronnies addiction, the included Ronnie's drug. She kinda had this flotsam life where they went from crashing at a friends house sleeping on the couch Much ok! Well there, my roommates this month, where we going to go next month, so that was that was like with him and Heather started dabbling herself and she found found that if you smoked weed, then you really forgot

everything the pain was away an you could live in this kind of a dream world, and so she overlooked that with him. You talk about cheese had a child. They had a child named Shiloh bore July. Ninety nine. What was the she this child was born some problem. What were the problems and what was the response from her mother right? I was born with with several learning disorders, and she wasn't your I hate to say normal baby. I hate that term. She he wasn't learning as quickly as most babies. One please he didn't seem to have the normal responses. As babies, her image did get and right away. Heather's mother Rita wondered

as Heather and Ronnie had been using, or maybe they were smoking too many cigarettes. While they were both pregnant because Heather had told Ronnie. Well, we need to settle down, we need to have a baby. You know we're we're right for parenthood. You know we have a baby and will make the perfect family for overlooking Ronnies drug abuse, their overlooking their lifestyle, their own we're looking the fact that they are living in a place with you know it was no hot water. Sometimes they could pay for electricity in their minds if they had a baby they'd be one big, happy family and and there's mother would try and explain that to them, but as a law long is the hat each other and it was going to be fine, but meanwhile, Shiloh's got all of these problems. Yeah and you talk of.

That she didn't really curb. The mother didn't really curb her late nights and party didn't accommodate this. You know the challenges that you have with this child, then you about she meets a man again. Another crucial person in this story. Incredible is MAC, Edward and she me Amatina Usmon Park to Marks MAX uncle. So how does this she's supposed to be in a relationship. So what happens here with this MAC Edwards, I think that what was going on is you know. Thanks had started to crumble, with Ronnie again she's sort of still looking for the perfect, loving relationship. Friends introduce her to MAC, not on purpose. It was so so one of those, so you know we're all going out here together. This is my cousin mako hi. How are you and they all end up going together? Well, she and MAC like each other. And they get along and they talk and they laughed and it's someone

that you can actually be yourself list and nicks phone numbers and the next thing you know they're dating. And I believe MAC truly did like her as much that could MAC had a problem with alcohol He admitted to me openly that he was an addict. He his drugs of choice square, alcohol and marijuana, and he was a bad boy. He got do a lot of legal trouble with GOSH a lot of what I want. You know it sounds bad petty crime. Car theft in DWI, and just next record was was spotty. Let's put it that way,. And he didn't want to settle down. He liked her. He lives her in his own way, but.

Wanted to be a bad boy. He wanted to run with his friends and great made him. He wasn't ready to settle down no November seventh, two thousand- and he doesn't know this he's aware of this. I have to say that there's a second child and that's Cherokee Hey rose- and you say the Cherokee rose is the state flower, Georgia just for interest sake. What was her state in terms of her medical condition at birth? A tell us a little bit about the birth of Cherokee rose, He had a lot of medical issues when she was has he had been placed in Icu. It was you know several days before she could come home. There's had to make a lot of allowances for her to able to breathe.

They had to have her on several machines so that she could breathe normally, and what I thought was interesting, as as a side note here is, the Cherokee Rose, is a flower that legend has it when the native Americans were driven out of Georgia during the trail of tears B, the children, were dying on the wayside and and the elders prayed that there would be symbol left. For the mothers of those children. To remind the world that they had been, their children have been there and when their tears, did the earth. The flower Cherokee rose, grew in their place of their tears and it was white for purity and it was gold in the center to rip.

What the white man had taken from native Americans and I found that to very interesting story as far as what happened with Cherokee. As far as her story thought, That was an interesting choice of names, but she she had problems with her breathing some medical issues and Heather also suffered a very difficult pregnancy. When she was pregnant Cherokee and when she was giving birth and one of Cherokees FAM remember said to me that baby Had problems literally since she came into the world yeah you talk about She was on a breathing machine and Heather had smoke during this pregnancy and you say: motherhood didn't settle Heather down, her know, Radick work records and they move Constantly so again, money was a big issue. Wasn't it right? It

still. You know again. She didn't have her high school diploma, which she always regretted money was always tight in the household, just lack of kills an you know, of education. And they The day is, you know there was a struggle blue collar Just I'm sorry, I'm at a loss for words here it was. It was a struggle that was fast food at the best she would work at one place. Quit to another. Well maybe this job at fifty cents more would be better okay. Well, I quit that job, because this job seems better and she didn't have a vehicle. She didn't have a drivers license. So ok, well this person won't give me a ride anymore, they're mad at me, so I've got to quit that job. It was just kind of this.

Day to day to day existence and still in between she's trying to meet a good man, a good person to sell down with, because now she's got two children as she Hunter has such a good heart. She really does and she wants to find someone that appreciates that that will pull her out of this slump. Now you talk about, trying to meet men, and she meets a Jamie Duke this guys were- abusive his I'm friends with Heather, however, but anyway, then she met this Nate Rodriguez guy. That was, they married that ended in a few years later in divorce, and then she gets back again very crucial character with Ronnie again now with Ronnie. Again, get back to Ronnie to try again, but their conditions were still very, very, very poor, but I found this really sad and depress

I mean one of the saddest things we talk about Shiloh and the bus, and the report and authorities get involved so tell us about this right. Shayla was going to school off. I see smell very strongly of urine and she had been wearing the same clothes and best driver smelled and saw this well legally. They have to make a report which they did chess gets involved an. Meanwhile, Shiloh makes an outcry to Heather that her daddy touched her and Cherokee also makes the outcry that run. He touched her, so they were taken to the emergency room DHS. Not involved, and it was decide-

is that the children were going to have to go to the foster until the investigation read it Joe. I want to take these children and raise. Because I don't want to get them to go into foster care because foster care is I don't want them to go to someone. We don't know. These kids are flesh and blood Jones, not crazy about that, yeah. He says we've raised kids. This is our time Wednesday argument now, at the same time, running now, town and he's gone, so there's no prosecuting him well,. And ultimately, Rita and Joe get legal custody of shy and is Cherokee. And so from literally little girls, you know three

four years old, they are in therapy. What is Heather to do ordered by the courts. And what does she do she not she. She has no contact with the children um beak They were also when they went to the hospital. They were not clean. Hum they were taking care of, and so She is ordered to stay away the children it start, doubt where she could call them only some many times a month. Then it was she telephone them more times a month. Soon it was supervised visits. And then it may

move to where she could have visits with the children and Heather carried that guilt with her I'll believe shoot. She cared that guilt until the rest of the rest of our lives. Now you talk about, we just talked about the original life of Rita and the ultra abusive husband, Joe Weather, was drinking or not. Now there grandparents does. He change and what you like, yes, Cherokee is his girl Cheese tarpons girl. She can do no wrong. And shy is Mama's girl and if. Mama cobbled her because of her learning disabilities angry and he would say, look more like a normal person, because otherwise you know she

don't try and I want her to try. I don't want people treating her different I want her to be bullied. I want her to learn that she's. Okay, if she is, is very interesting, dynamic and, of Course Cherokee was she could do no wrong. So if read it corrected chair, it was on, you know he would don't don't be me mean to her, don't spank her. She didn't need to do it. Uh She's had a hard life she's just a little baby. Don't you know, don't correct her mean that was is that was his girl and. He. He noted on those little girls. It was a complete three hundred and sixty for job. Unfortunately, he then suffered from dementia and, as many people do, he had symptoms of violent behavior towards That was a little bit later.

You say, though. Meanwhile, when they lived, they lived with their grandparents gradually Heather had or access and was able to talk to them. Then it was visit, so it did progress favorably and in her having to try to re, establish a relationship or maintain a relationship with her children, but at the same time and again this is one of the striking parts of the book at a very early age, and you can tell us what age of this is. We talked about kindergarten or before kindergarten cheese. Both of these children are assessed. Tell us what the diagnosis is four for both shy shy. Lo an for Cherokee, and as a result, what was prescribed now. They both with personality disorders. They were both described with

the the issues of of bipolar, which you know sometimes there's a the unlike the diagnosis of the day,. Schizophrenia and then years later, it'll be bipolar and then later on, it'll be, but they were both diagnosed bipolar. They were diagnosed with post, traumatic, stress disorder, but three years Old Cherokee was actually quite articulated. Free and she was diagnosed suicidal Becaus. She would warn people or she would tell people sued, wanted to kill herself. She wanted to die and.

They were the diagnosed with learning disorders, so they kind of had a right out of the bat. These kids have so many things against themselves and. Chai has his learning disorders, for example. You know she could read it well, she could read a book is she would have no idea what she just read, but we would watch a television show. She could repeat it verbatim and He she would start talking to you, she would, this veer off the subject and go into twenty five different. You know you would have to hold her face and look at her eyes and say: ok, shy, tell me again, but let's stay on track. So her mind would just racing racing single all these different directions, and they had just just so many issues and and several diagnosis,

we don't want their little girls there. Three, therefore, I believe she was in Kindergarten and Cherokee is of course, one year behind when they were going to outpatient therapy and what's interesting is everytime. Cherokee was in some kind of therapy, it lasted into their insurance with into the insurance could no longer pay for it's interesting, the again. It's it's a shock to people but I haven't hearing these kinds of stories and finding out about people as young as five or younger on some powerful. Antipsychotic drugs antidepressants, and this is no different talking about

Randy presents an anti psychotic drugs for these kids. I don't know the dosage mind you but again, two two to four different drugs for each one of them, and you say something in Antico Convulsant, because I guess that was a side effect of the one anti psychotic drugs. You talk about the things that Turkey said tell us some of the things that she said constantly about her life and in terms who loved her and who didn't. Okay, okay, well,. You know little Shiloh is, is kind of the quiet one. Now she you know as we're rolling along she's diagnosed with ADHD and s burgers. And then their their diagnosis, mildly, mentally, challenged, Cherokee, she's, she's kind of bouncing back and forth their color

You're, bipolar they're, calling your attention deficit, hyperactivity, there, still post, dramatic death, I'm sorry post, dramatic stress Order and all the time she is telling people she hates them, she's going to kill herself. Nobody loves her, everybody hates her, particularly when she not getting her way and pretty soon it's sort of like the girl who cries wolf. You know she doesn't want to go to school, she hates school and you know when she gets a school age, their charities, To go to school, I'm not going! You have to go to school, everybody has to go to school here, I'm not going I'll, kill myself. If I have to go and that this became the norm, you know it was. It was so difficult to get her on the school bus. I hate you. I hate everybody in this house. I hate my whole family, I'm going to kill myself.

And then you know not too long after she arrives, then the phone call would come Cherokees in the nurses office. She says she has a stomach ache. I read it You have to go and get her. And she's got again all these diagnoses going on, and on top of that she can wear she hates him. She tell everybody that she's so I'm happy that she's going to kill Herself- and this is you- know, kindergarten. That's going and a lot of times it's she's not getting her way. You say: there's all kinds of incidents, but her her grades aren't so bad in those first few years, but again shocking to talk about the third grade in an where Rita calls the police. So what is the reaction? I can't see this myself working, but what is the what the police do. Turned lives in third grade

and that morning, there's a huge rental and she tells Rita, I'm not going to school, and I hate to go on. You can't make me, which is the old phone again and she says I'm going to kill myself now. This is when she also started hitting and so read it because the police and says I don't know what to do anymore. She's hitting she's talking back and she says she's going to kill herself according to Rita the police, show up and they say to Cherokee. So when you want to kill yourself. Yes,. So the hand cover they put her in the back of a squad car and they go to the Mental Health Hospital, an interview her and she-

Did well, she didn't really mean it and, according to her family, that's what happened. There's incident in the fourth grade that doesn't help her at all two thousand and ten she's in a different school. Now. And you say the teachers and the principals didn't understand her thought she strange and more bullying from students, but then, on January fourth, two thousand and ten: what happens? What does you talk about? Cherokee findings, someone, that's close to her. Tell us about this incident. And it's affecting turn Joe by now had been in and out of the hospital four in numerous numerous. His health was really going downhill and.

By now he was more or less in hospice and he was at home, sick and Rita had been sitting with him, bedside feeding him ice chips And he was barely barely existing and she said daddy. If your staying are for me and the girls let go will be fine when she left the room she living out of the room very long and Cherokee came and told her. I went to see Papa and he lips are blue and he's not breathing and they sat with Joan, who had passed away for several hours before the ambulance could arrive to take the remains away and that

with another, just a downhill slide for charity Becaus, again she's Popples girl and she's, the one who found him so that doesn't help her behavior at school at home and her personal life. What does it? Is it a market difference in her at that time? I know it's hard to maybe say, but was there a big difference in her afterwards? Yes, definitely she she she started setting fires she I became very defiant acting out um. She was. She was very overly emotional. It was Is it was either one way or the other? There was no real mental ground. There were some bed wedding. She constantly fought with her grandmother. She thought with her family

he is sure, would get into it to where it was throwing each other into the wolves and punching and kicking she got to where she would destroy property. Stealing she was always feeling at school and she even got bigger than in first grade where they get her home for a day for stealing, but it was. It was, always little stupid stuff like little bracelets or a dollar, or you know just pretty little things that little kids like nothing even really worth anything. She just wanted little things to be pretty nail. Polish little trinket little fake rings she would steal money out of read purse five dollars here, ten dollars there and she would use it to buy ice cream. She would use it to buy a little break. What does she want.

And you know she wanted to be, like all the other kids in in her school, that had little cute things, little cute clothes, But the the destruction of property you know got worse she she's kind of spiraled and the most of her grand Father really hurt her. The she's at home. Little health issues did not help you this kid- had a lot of a lot of stuff going on and and she didn't have a family that was equipped to handle it because they never head handle. Something like that before now things change in another. Crucial character are very a positive character in Cherokee's life and heathers life is October, two thousand and eleven and MIKE Edwards, Michael Edwards, and no relation to this MAC. Edwards

and he met Heather online on online dating and he was originally from Oklahoma in the first date was New year's eve, one thousand and eleven tell us about what happens the change in the living arrangements, and if this is a pause, just move at all, even for a time in their lives. Ok, they did meet online. And. You know Heather Tills MIKE. I have two little girls and if that's To be a problem, for you then walk and MIKE says: no, that's not a problem at all and he gave her his phone number and he said call me, if you want, if you don't, I understand you know they sort of lifted in the air for each other. If you like me, that's fine, if you don't that's fine too MIKE made her laugh. Heather had not done in a long time.

And they truly enjoy each others company, so they finally meet. They go out on a date. And they just found that they they fit in then they like to set and they got together as a couple and the Actually they moved into the same house and the girl just loved MIKE. He was patient with them. He was very kind. He was a disciplinarian, but he wasn't mean and he wasn't. You know he didn't call names, he didn't spank, he wasn't cool, he made the problem rules, but he and do it the wrong way and he called Cherokee. Her nickname was tricky and at one point they are driving along MIKE Love, sports cars and he, the car with a sunroof and they're driving along and the girls, are giggling 'cause. The sentence is so cool. An Cherokee turns to my out of nowhere and she says, are-

the kind of man that would touch a little girl and he says no. Never. And she just looks out the window and she sort of contemplating and she says good, and he was just you know. He said she was kind of skittish it for. But she came around and then So you know they're all a family. Today, you're acting like a family unit, an Cherokee came up to him very shot and she says: do you mind if I call you daddy, and he said, if that's what you want, then I don't mind and the next thing you know MIKE was daddy to both girls yeah, and he was here sorry he was wet sorry to cut you off. Oh he was. He was a very positive influence for heathers. She had always talked about, maybe starting her own business, and

I said then why don't you well, I was thought, maybe you know a cleaning company. Well, why don't you? And so she started one up. And he got a job working in a factory- and you know MIKE is a very hard worker and he has a very good look at the And he passed it along to the girls. If you want something you work for it and- you know, you don't steal, you don't lie now doesn't say that Cherokee you know chain immediately. There was still some issues with her and, of course, they still had problems with with child with her burgers ADHD. This is shots, are very sweet, girl, a very sweet, little girl and he loves- you know they not going to places together and they didn't have to have money to go out and have fun. They go to the park and ride bikes were would they go to local attractions that were you know that were free and he drives him in his car and

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Code, murder ten dollars off your first box. That's all over two hundred dollars, value for only three thousand nine hundred and ninety nine go to fabfitfun dot com use my code. Murder to get ten dollars off your first fab fit fund box. Now it looked like Judas Heather's life and More importantly, the children, Shiloh and Cherokees life was going to turn around with somebody that really did love them, that you could call dad that cared to give their discipline that she needed, and also the loving and and attention and support that she had never really had from anyone. But what is her behavior like under these conditions- and you also talk about the relationship of Heather and Rita under the same roof right?

now you know I should add that for for all her problems and all her tissues that Cherokee had Cherokee was she was such a sweet. Little girl. You know she could be such a sweet kid, and We had a good heart. She was a lot like her in that way. She she was hello, such a loyal friend, to the friends that she did have, and she was so boy crazy. I mean just you know, should have So she'd had this crush on this one kid one week at all: only love each other forever and then the next week on Facebook, she's calling him all kinds of names. So it's very quick to give hugs she loved give her friends and her family hugs. She is very quick to say I love you and she meant it is a very sweet name. Your kid for all of the negative behaviors that she had. You know she such a dichotomy in a lot of ways, and you know in the middle of all this has and.

Her mom read at their relationship is always kind of been off and on I do Really that they truly love each other's mother and daughter and Heather I understand the choose that Rita was under while had is going up, but still there was such friction and so there still that misunderstanding, there's the misdirection between them out, of course, growing up with out any sophistication of understanding, the problems. You know and now they've moved into adulthood. And then You know later in their lives, still not understand. What's causing that friction. There's a lot of fighting. And there's a lot of blaming and there's a lot of self blaming.

It gets thrown in there as well and Heather does see a lot of herself in Cherokee. You know she sees the sweet and loving side, but then she also sees the problem problematic sides to her. She see Is that you know one minute: Cherokee is. So loving and giving and then the other minute Cherokees telling her family. I hate you and she striking out an you. She sees it she's a loyal good friend, but yet she doesn't have any friends but she's, seeing herself in Cherokee, and she also sees that that's what aggravates Rita So there's so many arguments and unfortunately it's a tiny house and the kids standing there, literally in the middle of it. You talk about striking out but she's, actually striking, Rita and Shiloh she's physical,

She can hear it been, but she become physical and she's, actually at some point on probation for Rita tell us about your doom. Get on probation for hitting. Tell us about the Oak Plains state and its effect on Cherokee does well in and don't work at one point: at the end of a row, Cherokee was hitting and kicking and the I hate to you in it just got to. It is point and the threats, this suicide became norm. The destruction. In the fire setting. So she has. Cherokee admitted to oak lanes, which is a mental health hospital. Just is she had son NE, I'm sorry NW of Nashville

and of course, Cherokee go. I hate you. You hate me for doing this to me. I'll, never speak to you again. Yet Cherokee excelled at that mental health has grades. Sorry. She did very well socially better a few times that she got into trouble um. The was Eventually she was allowed to go on a pass back home for uh, oh uh next day or a weekend stay now. It's interesting is when she would, home she did well. But then, when she would return, her behavior would disintegrate. And so they were working with key thing working with the family or family, Would come and visit her, and it was just you know it was lower classrooms.

They had her on medication. They worked with her medication to get her stabilized. She was in group, she was in therapy with counselors something that could not get her to talk about. Is they couldn't get to open up about the sexual molestation? and it was very difficult for her to talk about her grandpa's death. So they had some problems with getting her to open up about those things. And I want a few, I'm sorry will go ahead. She a few little ward. She. They they work on a level system where your behavior, if you need certain. You know behavioral levels, then you and Beyonc Lion level or tiger level.

She didn't make it all the way to the top level, but she did move up circle levels and she did well and when the insurance ran out, then she was released. Now she was on an outpatient program. She completed that. And she went home and things Good for a while, and then it just deescalated back to where it was you talk about that she did gain some insights into her behavior. While she was in this, eye clinic and that she was more in control of her emotions. You seem to be sweet and loving when she did go home. They prescribed her Abilify melatonin for sleeping Joan D Convulsant in a multi vitamin. Interestingly,. You said she right artist. She she had plans to

The hair stylist her family of the new outlook, but you say it didn't last what went wrong. I think it was probably the environment she went back into. You know it wasn't a steady environment, it wasn't a controlled environment. Perhaps now, after a medications have to be adjusted and if you're, not in a controlled environment where the medication isn't isn't monitored as it should be? But you know it's it's it's good a dentist you're going to your body can, bring everything else is going to change in the medication is going to need to be challenged and if you don't have the doctors and the therapist the counselors around here you're going to change and you're going to have to adjust, you talk about her grades declining but they still they had a you know they promoted her to

great, so she always passed on to the next grade regardless right, but you talk about in May two thousand and thirteen around this time. It who bully and gets to the point where read and Heather complain to the school and filled out what they called bully reports tell us about what these were and what was the result after they had filed these ok in that school, system. There is a bully report and you feel like you're, being bullied. You complete this report and you turn it in to someone that is a staff member at the school and from there it goes into the system. From what I understand- and I know this is what I was told goes to someone accounts, for, I believe in

the decision on where this From here, do they pull the bullies aside and talk to them? Do they will pull? equally- and the parents aside and talk to them. You know what level of seriousness is it yeah and Cherokee had completed a few bully reports now the prob and with these bully reports is when you're pulling the bully inside they're going to know who completed them. Now person, who reported them, is going to be labeled a snitch and. You know: where does it go from there you're going to pull the kid inside going going to be innocent and they're going to say it, and it me: where does it go? Okay, Don't do that again? Okay, I want in the story now. You know if, if I turn in the bully report- and they tell me ok- it was taken care of- I have to go out there.

In that playground. I have to go out there and at lunch room so to me. Is it Continues then, in my eyes, the school did nothing about it. So who knows it? If The kid was talk to I don't, because I'm the one that turned it in. You talk about section should be well, nothing was done right. You talk about the PTSD and that's evidenced by with these nightmares? Tell us about the DS nightmare subside while she was in oak plains,. And or did subside when she got back home, how? How did you fare with these nightmares. They eventually they eventually went away. She it had horrible nightmares where she was convinced

there was someone outside her window and if she went to sleep they come in and get her, which is typical of as other childhood been molested and, as you said, typical of someone with PTSD and she self reported that when she went to hospital- and I believe that the counseling in the therapy she received, along with the medication, took care of that issue and. You know when she returned she no longer having nightmares and then slowly and surely, however, the destructive behavior reared its ugly head. Now

again, you know she still continued to be this good hearted little kid this is she had so much going against her. I don't. I'm truly do not believe Cherokee with a bad kid. She did some bad things, but I don't think she was a bad kid. Do you think the different yeah sure? Certainly they also talk about just because it's an interesting part of the story as well that this at some point she is an answer. Man and there's a party at some point and she's thirteen, and this Timothy Ashbury is eighteen. Maybe we just talk about now. We might as well say what what was he doing there? What happened they found out later, but what was this little meeting and what it lead to with chair you know that's sort of one of those mysteries of he. She said they were, and it is

that's one of the problems and in writing about people's lives is especially in the aftermath. You have ten people we're going to give you ten different stories and if you expand that you're still going to get more stories and you either have to ditch it or you have to done with the majority of the story. Timothy is one of those very interesting individuals, but From my understanding, he did show up at a few different parties of Cherokee. Some people remembered him there. Some people didn't. Some people said they were dating. Some people said no, but then you got thank you know in junior high. What is dating, you know you hold hands in the hallway or you go to somebody's house and talk. You know which, with Cherokee that's the extent of

eating. You know you go to each other's house and talk. Are you talk on Facebook or you know you, you text constantly That's really the extent of her dating and that's what they were doing. Another interesting event happens in two thousand and thirteen. We go back to this MAC, Edward no relation to MIKE Edwards who's. Now a for her father for all intensive purposes in two thousand and thirteen MAC averages in prison and his cousin talks to him. What does he say? What does he learn and what does he do right? This can insisted he by the way. Did you know you have a daughter what yeah another room has dear daughter, so he calls Heather and he says what's this business about, I have a daughter and she says yes, you didn't want to

after he said yes, yes, I do well at first, they just wrote letters just to kind of get to know each pretty soon talk real time on the phone and he send her drawings and she would send him her drawings and Pretty soon. He invited her up to visit him and she was very, very excited and she told her best friend and she told Heather and MIKE, that she really really really wanted to go visit. Her dad. And Heather and MIKE discussed it and they set up play, but we're not leaving her with him. It's going to be a supervised visit, because MAC was still a bad boy.

So they discussed it at length and they said. Ok, we will take you to meet him, so she was very, very over just overjoyed that she's going to meet him uh. That was, he was very excited to get to make Cherokee and she sent him her school pictures and He believed that she was you know in his eyes she was a very sweet, little girl, very innocent, sweet kid and he did want to meet her. She was his child. You talk about Cherokee in school. She has a friend she has a friend named Katie Nichols that that has a slight speech. Is impediment she's only ninety pounds she had been bullied be so she knew what it was all about. They became friends, they became very close and Cherokee, like a young man,

the name Alex Caesar now tell us just about you talked about junior high and how serious can relationships be, but in the person's mind, could be very, very serious, so tell us what about this relationship and how did she see it and what really was their relationship before we talk about events that happen, not that long after okay, okay Katie is just a sweetheart of a little girl and she understood a lot. What was going on with Cherokee emotionally Mentale her background and one of the people I interviewed said Cherokee could not have had a better friend K. He is wise beyond her years. She is an old soul and. She gave Cherokee a lot of advice and one of Goodbye she gave her Cherokee,

Is moaning and crying and dying over Alex? Oh, never be the same, he's ruining my life and Katie, very practically, says Cherokee. We will see these people again after we graduate school, you probably never team again after this summer. So what do you care? You know Cherokee thought that Security Katie. If she had a boyfriend, it was going to be forever it could be the rest of her life. You know she gets his boyfriend, then that's it. They will go to be married. She would some of her boyfriend. She even called my future husband, the kids, not even click sticky and she say my future husband and she would just get so serious about these kids and Alex Either was one of them. You know she was just convinced and

on her facebook. You can see it. You know I am in love with him. He is the best thing ever. I'm sad because I won't see him today, but I will see him tomorrow so that will make me happy um just how ham, so he was how cute he was here's a picture of here's another picture of him. You know eleven so much. He is my life in Katie's, just rolling her eyes and saying: look. You know you're you're a kid. Basically, so Katie is just kind of going: ok, whatever and Cherokees. No I'm in love well, eventually, like all the other serious boyfriends Cherokees, has she and Alex Elder, separate ways.

And the next thing you know she's writing on her facebook that he is a little bit that you know that in the last you talk about this, a Shin with a Cherokee too, and I thought this is real. You know I could not. In the pressure and and the peer pressure because of it. She didn't have her own phone, so her mother gave her her phone and then Her mother got another phone. If you could imagine a kid that age not having an Iphone or cell phone, so my God, the order of it all also right yeah you talk about you talk about the importance of Facebook to these kids, and so you also include very important part of the book to is. You include all these Facebook posts, 'cause they're, very, very telling- and you include- may sixty two fourteen facebook posting just for example, what kinds of things would you say on these posts? Unlike some people,

if you read Cherokees Facebook and her quitters and- and you saw the videos that she posted on Youtube you would you read this kid. You really could be because all of her songs were about heartbreak, but she he was strong because he left her or she Strong woman, because she didn't need him all her Facebook post we're about uhm. You know voice that she thought was cute or boys that she was mad at so he's a little bitch, and she also wrote about you know. Why why is everybody so mean to me? Why did Do

people. Not like me. Just the you know, you could read it in almost hear her voice. When you read it, you know I just I just want to have a friend up one minute. It's why do people hate me so much and then the next? It. You know I love my mom's so much and she loves to write, poetry, she'd, write, songs and and one song that have an idea who it's about. She was Roy. I about you know why won't you date me. I know you say it's because of my age, do you think I'm pretty enough, and a lot of that was.

A lot of a writing one. Why don't you think I'm pretty in a it? It was. It was Turkey, you know just wall, you know putting it all out there, one bright spot in your life that you right, though this is again incredibly heartbreaking. Later as we'll see this MAC Edwards kept in Contact Cherokee from prison, and he had a release date of September 11th, two thousand and fifteen and the course wanted and she was excited and he was excited he he had asked if she could- Spend the summer with him in Ohio, so he was looking forward to that and he here so and so he was real looking forward to then so was she how you talk about examples of this bullying?

You know I mean we talk about bullying and then people might say wow you know toughen up or when I was a kid. We did that, and you know we did, but we're talking about some of the things that you describe like You know rolled up paper thrown at her. What kind of names were thrown and at her hurled at her and the kinds of things talked you talk about, some physicality tell us, just as you do describe a walk down the halls for Cherokee some days Inn a lot of words were hurled at her clothes, close Cherokee loved to do, hairstyle wells and nails. He could look at a Youtube. Video Ann and no matter how intricate or how do the a of greater hairstyle was? She could copy it immediately.

And she would cut and style and color her own hair and looked like she just stepped out of the salon and she would go to school, very proud of it, and kids would make fun of her. You look like a boy that looks ugly. What are you trying to do? Look pretty um. They would throw rolled up there's a couple of times she got pushed into. Lockers is it. You know there was name calling you you stink When he turned in the you know, you try to look like a movie. Star would be down. Why are you wearing that? You look like a home. How was the big name yeah it? It was kind of a catch all phrase. Now this is in a in a in a very small house in the house of chain smokers and the fact that

You know she had the problem of one issue with kids have been molested. Is they either don't like to bathe where they days too much in Cherokee was one who didn't like to babe. And that's a dynamic with molested kids, so they would make Underscore for smelling a certain way, because the way she smelled. They would just they would make fun. You know, kids will think of anything to to make another kidding outcast if they want to plus the fact that it was fun to make Cherokee mad. You know they would push buttons pushed just push buttons until she blew up and Boyd she blew up, it was volcanic, and then that was the show. You know cuz, she would red in the face and fist Crying and yelling- and you know

right in back of me- that was the show to look for so that's another reason why they would give her a hard time right right. You include all these texts that are so important. As you say, it's telling to see where whether state of mind was pretty obvious through these text, you could read a lot into it. Obviously September fifth, two thousand and fifteen. She writes my life is worthless and you talk about that day in question or what Rita did and MIKE and and Heather as well. She was using her mom. So phone. Tell us of the circumstances of that day, starting off with that text, why she was in such a tizzy and what she did as a result where she wanted to go to sort of chill out. Ok, well, that hey MIKE and Heather had you know she had her cleaning company and my quiz.

Helper. They had a new client and she had an hey. Can I go with and Heather said. No, because it's a new client, okay, well in her grandma took shy to a family members house, so Cherokee is just kind of moving around the house, an earthen park, a couple of blocks away called mankind park to very small park, and it's Awesome swing says: he's got some jungle gym type of stuff. It's got a provision with a couple of inches sure likes to. There every now and then just so. She can be on one of the shipping time to sort things out in this quiet and so he's thinking. Okay, you know what I'm gonna hit dimensions. Mark, I'm going to you know, maybe sit on the swing set. Sit under a tree.

And just kind of gather my thought. It's nice and quiet it there. So she asks her grandmother, who's who's. You know in and out of the house at this time. Can I go to the park and she gives permission and ask your mom she text Heather. Can I go to the park granted it's okay, Her mom says yes, sure just text me every you know so many minutes and let me know, you're, ok, because I don't trust men in that area. Right. Ok, so she, you know, changes clothes. She chooses her outfit very carefully because looking pretty was very important to Cherokee. You know she wanted to look cute. She wanted to fit in. She wanted boys in order, sir, and you

she's a little girl. She said she's coming into her own. You know cheese, she's, a nice kids. She wants to look pretty. She wants to she's growing up, you know so she's she's, taking a long time deciding which is going to wear and she walks. She goes to the park and that's Where she's decided she's she's going to kind of spin the afternoon and she texts on her facebook, she says she's headed tored the park. Does anybody wanna go if Manson Park right and that man can park? is this Allie trace a girl? She knows, Debbie horns mean she knows, Alie Alie, trace too there's this former. Boyfriend or the love of her life Alex either and he's now going out with Allie Trace right, but he has a decision to make that evening, apparently in and is very

his love life of these young teens and another Donnie Johnny Roy now, why? Why is it that alley? Well? What does We do and why tell us what this altercation was about. Possibly. Turkey does not know? Who alley is she only knows Debbie through they go the same high school. So they kind of know each other on a. Ok, I know who that girl is basis but they're not in the same circle of friends, not even close and and of course they all know, Alec Becaus. Because of this, like you said this romance going on and Cherokee arrives those kids, Sitting at the at the bench.

Talking on their cell phones, and you know such and such Cherokee goes and sits on. One of the swing sets well Debbie breaks away from the group she walks over there and she tries to talk to Cherokee in Cherokee is not talking much ok, so she goes back and sit with the group Ali said this, but talk to her okay and one of the of the voices. Please don't start anything because Alex has a tendency to start drama maturity. Sides- ok. Well, you know no peace here. You know I'm not by myself. So Cherokee starts home, which again is just a few blocks. An ally says no. I just want to say something to her. So is Cherokee is crossing the street alley crosses history and yelled at her, and

and across the you know across the way, and she just starts cursing her and Cherokees like I don't even know who you are he is yelling. You know television things like you're, a hoe, you're a bitch in Cherokee said I don't even know who you are and don't you know again, you think you're going to steal. My man and sure, like I, don't know who you are meanwhile, alleys friends are like. Oh, my God, Alex quit. Stop right now now. Some witnesses say that Debbie shouted things. Other witnesses say she didn't. From what I understand. The boys just did their stock and it went back and forth I went back and forth now off on the sidelines or to younger kids who are related to one of these older kids and there watching, can like this is getting You know back and forth

an Cherokee. You know she jumps, yeah she's, like I don't know who you are. I don't know what you're talking about. You can have him, I'm not interested and so finally Cherokee turns on her heel and believes and alleys ya. Yeah bitch you go on, you know just team talk, and so the kids go back to the park. Bench Cherokee leaves and she's headed for home. And she gets home he kind of slipped into the kitchen. Please a kitchen knife out of the drain. She hides it Her jacket and she heads back outside toward the park. What.

She calls somebody name Abraham her friend. What does she tell Abraham she's going to do with the knife now? What does he tell her? Yes, she calls a As she's leaving the park- and she says, can you come over to the park and he's he's hurt himself and he can't ride his bicycle and he says now I can't what is going on The kids are being mean to me at the park Anne. She starts telling. What's happening and he's basically like plug their stupid. And, so there kind of jib jabbing will meanwhile heathers breaking in hey. I haven't heard from you, I'm sorry. I didn't get a chance to call you. And then some in the fray. She text Heather back and she says I Hate to be the one getting called a bitch and a hoe so now she's texting Heather at the same time, she's talking to Abe on the phone and

head is like baby girl, they're just jealous. I keep telling you that over and over you're so much prettier than those girls. Now Cherokees heard this one hundred times like the risk, if used to when I was in junior high and my arm. I would say: oh they're just jealous you know so she's like ok, whatever. And I truly believe that at that point in her life, Cherokee was fed up. She had had it up to here now bullet side. I'm sorry. You know we talk about bullish side. Bullying is not the cause of suicide and these kids, but it is a component So by then this kid, a little girl had had enough. An I feel like she was just slowly like caving in.

And just kind of wavering and so Abe is telling. Cherokee, whatever you're thinking about doing just leave, it just leave them there not worth it. Meanwhile, her mom is texting her there, not where you know you're prettier there jealous she gets a knife from the kitchen and she tells Abe. I have a knife. And he is freaking out, oh my god. What is she going to do? He's thinking, she's, going to go back to the and she's either going to wave it at them to scare them, or maybe even go up to them with that knife, but at the same time that is not charity. That is not her personality. She is not the type to the lighting and I've it. Anyone much less even pick up in life. I mean that is just so beyond her personality

at the same time, maybe is going Cherokee. Don't do anything, that's crazy. What are you doing what you going to do with that knife and the back of his head and he's like this is so surreal. I don't even see her picking up a knife Much less holding it in her jacket, much less leaving her house with it. So if she's just playing, is she telling me the truth. You know what is going on and that's uh happening within just a few blocks of her walking back to the public. Now you talk about I witnesses to what exactly goes on here when she has the knife to make it clear, because there was the media, you say: sensationalized this event

corner later called it a suicide that was his ruling, but the family thought that bullying. Caused this suicide and called for serious it? So what did the eye witnesses actually see? Cherokee? Do or have done to her and what was the result. Eyewitness testimony varied and we do know for sure that Jerky stabbed herself. She yelled at the kids, were still under the pavilion at the at the chairs and talking and she walked up and she yelled at him all turned around to look. She raise your hands over her head and then punch yourself in the stomach and fell down and the key

It's ran over and Aly grabbed turkeys, jacket and tried to stop the bleeding um. It was kind of chaotic Becaus. It was called nine hundred and eleven. Well, I don't have any minutes on my cell phone will. I can't get cell phone service somebody, your mother, your mother, wasn't answering, can somebody said: go get her mom. Well, Alex Neuwirt Ricky live because he you know they dated Alec and the other boy get on their bicycles and ride her house and then. Another, you know somebody else tells the two little kids that are still there. You go home and you forget anything you saw here today, so they take off uh. Then somebody grabs, Cherokees, Fung.

And they die. You know they they scroll, to find the first name on her phone list, which is in a of course. They dialed that pay Is this her mom? No, it's not her mom! It's her friend! What's going on this girl's name is angel. Well, she stabbed herself in the park angel, says you're talking from her mom's phone call this number now they call Heather what Heather thinks it's a cruel joke right, so she text Cherokee and she says: did you really stab yourself in the Right, 'cause, she's thinking, God, you know: first, they bully her at school. Now, they're bullinger in the park now they're being ugly- and this is this is now, they're being ugly, a repair and it just went from chaos to crazy.

You know the the knife was moved and then the knife was moved again and when the officers arrived, you know they separate rated? The kids and then Ali was on the side trying to hear the cops and then they had to move her. The younger kids came back with rent and said: okay. Well, here's what we saw. And everybody got taken to the police station in separated and then parents had to be called. So it was just chaos on top of and You know their kids and I just just experienced a very traumatic prolific thing. And they also had a hand it someway somehow and I'm not saying they're guilty of something, but they were there. Yeah one of the boys texted Katie N,

and Katie? I'm sorry Katie texted him and said: did you hear about Cherokee? And he says I was bigger. What I was there and the first thing he thinks a mature, a key passes This is oh, my god, I'm going to jail. Her parents hate me and I'm going to jail. So you add it's a juvenile, The juvenile wine to this horrific event and that's what you've got. What was the media response? You talk about sensationalism rather than fact, how did they tree the story: how did they depict the crime or the event? Pardon me. Not right away, it was a little girl stabbed herself in front of her bullies and that wasn't true.

A little girl stabbed herself because of her bullies. You know she walked up system kids- were being mean to her in the park um and to get Academie. She she stabbed herself. You know this bullying problem is a big issue. Lynyrd? When are we going to do something about it that that kind of reaction? As I said you know, the bullying is not the cause it, is a component, but they ran with this whole bullying story right away. Yes- and you know those kids, is three of those kids weren't being mean Ann Was it bullying, you know the police. Ruled? It was a fight over a boy, So again we look at all these different definitions of bullying. Me look

yeah what is and what isn't league play bowling, let it and that's all you heard is she killed herself because she was bullied and she stay in front of her blue reason. Did it and it made it very dramatic as if you know these key, you're taunting taunting taunting, so she pulled a knife out of her purse or what have you and stabs herself in front of them this little group who's just banded together to beat on her. You. It's interesting too, because Rita Heather MIKE all find out. The news, like you say at First Heather thinks it's a joke and and her daughters just be in the drama queen again, and then they find out they run to the park. It's it's a heart,

breaking story that you have here about how they find out and then their reaction. After thinking, somebody should be charged, somebody has to blame And meanwhile, the life that she was raised in the grandparents that two generations of abuse, neglect and self interests and and the effects of all the. Things are rendered her life, I like she said worthless and she suffered so much this kid and the wanted. So little and it seems like by the time she got the treatment it really couldn't have much of an effect it just the so many things that she had to endure it, and I again I don't know what your opinion is, but it seemed like

and- and you write that it seemed like despite the medication and the melatonin and vitamins that still doctors really don't have answers to complex behavioral problems like this. Do they. Now, and- and you know when it comes to a crime and when it comes to the The tragic event like this. Everybody wants an answer. We want to know who to blame. We want to know what to blame, because it makes us feel better. You know we want to blame something, someone, and I think that was a lot of their reaction is we need to arrest these kids? We need to stop bullying, let's make a law that says Molly to be arrested. Let's you know draft in the legislation, something that stops bullying uh, it's the schools fault, it's the parents fault it He you know people who invent school desk fall.

I mean we always want to blame someone or something, when really and This is what I learned myself in writing this book. So many things it's a perfect storm of things in bluing is really universal. You can say the health care system believes us. You know because here is Cherokee and she's doing really well in this in this mental health facility. But now she has to leave, because it's so expensive and the family can afford. You know we can blame the education system. Well is the schools fault because they need to ok we're talking about an underfunded, overworked system that barely eking along and I taught high school for six months, we did good to have supplies. We did good to have you know?

with the right textbook. I spent a lot of my money I made on stuff. For my students were not Ok, we will have a new program. Okay, look. We can't even afford the programs we have yeah, but the teacher should ok. Why don't? I add that to the curriculum? I already don't have time to teach. You know families bully one another, then the work place, people bully one another. You know okay so who we going to blame, and it's not just when we talk about balloons, it's not just the big kid in the schoolyard picking on the weak kid it's it's one, big universal and you know in the school. Well, I was bullied when I was a kid. I did fine, I didn't shoot up the school and I didn't kill myself. Okay, some kids. Whatever reason can get through it. Some kids cannot.

And there's no one reason why a kid shoots up a school. It's no one reason why a kid commits suicide. It's never simple, but we want one answer. We want Something to blame it makes us feel better. I think the thing is to we assume that, despite well with programs, an medication that this girl could recover from being raped by a stepfather by your sister's father and then she could have as we find out later in your book that this eighteen year old guy again he didn't know she was thirteen, but he's he's sexting her he's sending jizz of his genital, so he was later charged and put on probation. So it's a sad, sad story again. We want to attribute blame, but the lifestyle that she was born into

That background that she inherited, like you say, led to this very very complex behavior she had, but she really did commit suicide and, despite the media's portrayal, as this there's bullied to death, you went and found out that truth behind this story. I want to thank you very much. Do this for coming on and talking about bullied to death, a story of bullying social media and the suicide Cherokee Herman. It's been a real pleasure. Judas for those that might want to contact you or look at a facebook page for this book. How could they do that? Tell us. I am on true crime book dot, net, more Judith, a yates dot. Mom- and I did want to mention that a percentage of proceeds is going to be donated to a national organization that will help children like Cherokee. All that's great. That's really good.

I want someone to learn something and move forward with this. Yes, absolutely it's so fascinating book- and I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about it. I hope to talk to you again soon. Thank you. Judith Yates, goodnight, goodbye.

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