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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them? Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, Hi Dan, how you doing good evening, Johan All right this up against, thank

people agreeing to this interview, this interview, no thank you. I really appreciate that. Would have a spike on on headphones. I thank you maybe have speakers on we're having an echo here in an echo here hang on. Let me If I hang on a second, if I put my headphones on, it might stop. How about now hours ago, in a close that sounds great Let me just do the introduction that we normally do. I want to mention that this episode of true murder is brought to you by square space and school. Space is the easiest way to create a beautiful website blog or online store for you and your ideas square features an elegant interface, beautiful templates and incredible. Twenty four slash: seven customer support. Try square spacethatsquarespace dot com.

And enter offer code. True murder at checkout to get ten percent off your first purchase square space, build it beautiful. Thank you for agreeing to this interview your hand. Thank you very much. I just want to do the synopsis of the book as we normally I normally do. Sure. Abbatial. Anybody who can say my name correctly as well. Okay, Johan, it's Johann Hari yeah you're very rare person who gets it right first time. Well, thank you Let me just introduce this incredible book. It is now one hundred years since drugs were first banned in the United States, on the eve of this centenary, journalist, Johann Hari shut off on an epic three year. Thirty thousand mile journey into the war on drugs. What he found is that more and more people all over the world have begun We recognize three startling truths

dogs are not what we think they are. Addiction is. Not what we think it is, and the Gore has very different motives to the ones we have seen. On our television screens, for so long and chasing the scream Harvey reveals his discoveries entirely through the stories of people. That's the world whose lives been transformed by this war. They range from a transsexual crack dealer in Brooklyn searching for her mother to a teenage Hitman in Mexico. Searching for a way out begins with Haris discovery that at the birth of the drug WAR, Billie Holiday was stalked and killed by the man who launched this crusade and ends with the story of a brave doctor who is LE country to criminalize every drug from cannabis to crack with remarkable results, chase scream lays bare what we really have been chasing in our century of drug war, in our hunger for drugs and in our attack, to destroy them. This will challenge and change how you think about one of the most controversial and Consequential questions

our the book. They were teaching this leaving is chasing the scream. The first and last days of the war on drugs with my special guest ger, list in author, Johan Hari. Thank you very in this interview and let's get right into this incredible book great. Thank you now, Johanna. In two thousand and two you announced on your website that you were going to write your very first book about the war on drugs. Please tell us a little bit about your professional journalism, background and because I do know that this is not the first time that you wrote about the war on drugs in in your journalism so tell us about your professional background before that, so we can have an adequate background as to how you came to this right. This incredible book but it was two thousand and twelve I put in a two thousand and two, but it's really interesting, because I am sorry, but in that site

For many years I've been a newspaper columnist and I'd written about the war on drugs and I'd written about it in white thing covers quite. Clinical? I would argue about why we should change the policy. We have I wasn't really interested in writing a book like that for lots of reasons really one of my earliest memories, of trying to wake up. One of my running things and not being able to, and as I got older realizing, we had addiction in my family and then other relatives becoming quite serious addicts, and I guess when I realized that Terry was coming up, as you said, from reading the instruction I'd. There was so many basic questions. I didn't understand about this question like why were drugs banned in the this place. Why do we continue with the strategy of punishing drug users and addicts? What do the alternatives really look like and what really causes drug usage, drug addiction- and I realize but in I didn't think I

going to get the answers to those questions by arguing with people. By looking for arguments. Why I wanted to do was go and sit with people whose lives have been chain. One way or another the mixture of people it turned out of the kind of three and a half years on the end of the such a vote in the first, and I kind of felt like I was gonna for The answer is not by arguing that, by sitting with people and listening to them and going back to them again and again and just trying to see The effects of the real world knows if we're like in some kind of philosophy, seminar in the real world market, possibly to talk question is so many that people involved in this dehumanized, you know whether it's drug users, drug dealers, pops you mentioned the guy on Speaker- is the only person to ever be at the heart of the deadliest mexican drug cartel and get out and lived to. Tell his story will be it. He lives in a very parable way. I kind of guess I

I want to listen to those people and tell their stories their human stories in the hope that the best way to deal with humanization is to re human The way you read, demonize people, it's just to tell what their lives are like, and I kind of felt like it in most people you could could've met Chino the incredible transexual crack dealer in Brooklyn. I got snow over three years for example, or extraordinary for the street at a time and start a revolution and bring to the to complete transpacific. I felt like they wouldn't be able to think about the drug war. In the same way, yeah before we introduce this fascinating cast of characters that really clearly demonstrate this store. Read it unfolds in this chasing the scream. Let's talk about the state of legalization of drugs in the world prior to nineteen fourteen and tell it's about the Harrison ACT and how

We're going to enter into the one hundred year century of this drug war, tell us about that initiative to Chris lies all drugs. Three interesting this right. It's hard to think about drugs were legal for all. My Scorekeeping history right so 1930s Can you go to your local store and you could buy opiates? You could buy cocaine based products and the way I the story of how the insurance is really three sisters and two people, one of those, a boxer, a California court. Henry Smith Williams. He was nobody's idea of a liberal. He he he treated addicts both before drugs were banned and then, after he was not very sympathetic to addicts, It wasn't a particularly nice man actually to start with, but you notice something that really struck him when drugs were legal here, patients who had addiction problems, they were bit like alcoholics today. There lie diminished, but most of them had jobs, most of them had lives most of them.

There were not significant number people dying of of the drugs were found to resemble got not in a minute which had nothing to do with protecting addicts and what he notices. Suddenly, all sorts of problems got dramatically worse when you ban drugs that it disappeared, that transferred from doctors and pharmacists armed criminal gangs. Phone criminal gangs will fight to control the patch, but more harmful, even more company, for the addicts themselves there massively increase the price they jacked up by one thousand percent. And that meant that the addicts who previously been able local corner store to get there to get their drugs. Local time store had to suddenly hi this massive influx bond. A lot of the women became prostitutes. Hello the men started printing property crime. Also, the drug started to be massively adulterated criminals, can't that happen. Safety inspectors into criminal smuggling smoke anything across the country, so so a massive increase in death among attics and Henry Smith. Really

I was really struck by that. The doctor in in California was really struck by this. He actually thought that I'm trying to change the truck will we forget that this was a massively contested thing when it came in it's not the drugs were banned easily there within plastic protest all over the United States. Twenty thousand dollars it's hard to be rounded up and arrested in charge. 'cause, they insisted on Carrie turning onto giving drugs to addicts 'cause, they could see what it does, after the drug war, ward,. The mayor of LOS Angeles, the ends in one of the hardwood prescribing clinic and but you will not shut this down and he was a popularly elected man. So this is a massively contested built and which makes you think well? Why would roads band then? Is it called such a disaster? What they've done and what's fascinating? Is it complete clearly not for the reasons we think probably had said to me for years ago. Why are drugs bad? I would've guessed well. People would give the and the reason is that most people would get now. We don't want people to become addicted. We don't want kids to use drugs backgrounds, then that barely comes up in the debate the debate is overwhelmingly as they saw it: Africa

Chinese Americans was suggesting that place using drugs on attacking white people. It was a massive race panic. There was a belief that African Americans we, using cocaine and attacking white people all over the s it was in, the reason. Given one many sharks increase. The caliber of the bullets they used is one person setting Fishel Statement cocaine n, word sure it's hard to kill This thing is really all the way. I tell it that this is really hard for me to get to understand. It says the way I tell it in the book it through the story of bill. Holiday and how she was still on basically help to be killed by the guy who looks the Drug WAR Harry Anslinger yeah in nineteen thirty nine. Billie Holiday, stand on stage in New York City and she sings the song strange fruit which Your readers will notice your business will not as a song against mention. Are you guns on the total to the right that space- we don't understand how shocking that was right. Billie holiday wasn't allowed to walk through the phone

doors that hotel should go through the service elevators african American, to stand in front of a white audience at a time when most songs were like twenty things like yes, I love you and sing. A song about lynching was viscerally shocking. I'm thought noise. According to I'm Judy a Julia, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics as to how stop singing this song the man running it Harry Anslinger think is the most influential person that wants to hold off basically invented the modern drug war he took over the Department of Alcohol prohibition, just as I called prohibition is ending, and it needed to find a new chords and it picks drugs, and he was driven, by two really intense day, one was of addicts and the other ones African, Americans and holiday for him was like the sim. Everything that goes wrong at all out is a lot of stores, which is a little girl she would risk provinces of which was a little girl,

should never get about her head to any white man and she basically said screw you I'm going to see my song and that's when this talking with her but leave, Augusta Denny's. Now you talk about you, introduce Harry Anslinger in you. Call Harry Anslinger part of this three characters of drug if it was a Mount Rushmore, be Harry, Anslinger and get to Arnold, Rothstein and also Billie holiday. So the title of your book chasing the scream. It's very interesting tell us Harry Anslinger in his first hatred and fear of the dick so tell us where this title this It derive from an earliest compulsion that was born in Harry Anslinger yeah. That's fine, when Harry Anslinger was a little boy. What ten or eleven he's grown up in a town called out? kind of rural town in Pennsylvania and Hey where he live, there was a farmer and his wife when the phone

is my Ipad, a an opiate addiction and one day Harry answering, it goes to this house, and the farmer says Department's wife is screaming and the farmer says go to the school goes. Take our horse call go to the store because Foster you come by the APS, bring them back to us. So how are ya? Gonna speeds that and get those quick as we can comes back to give the woman the idea and woman comes down and she stopped screaming hairy. Answering all his life was haunted by this memory and really haunted by his memory of screen and the tragedy for me, is in his belief that he was stopping those screens. It was actually creating an extraordinarily large number of screens instead. The other fascinating thing is another thing that Harry Anslinger Learning is a boy when he was freakishly pressing eventually, if put on the railroads young man. He was quite impressive in some ways this was pretty poor background. He existed on working on the railroads and school every morning and he

the rose up, and he he worked with in Robert Work is, I need it. They were terrified of something called the mafia, and this is hard to remember now, but the mafia was regarded as a deranged conspiracy theory. Like J Cohiba denied his whole life at the market even existed, it would be regarded the way we would regard like a kind of a truth or both or something and answering it, absolutely assisted on the reality of the mafia. And he was one of the first major American Louisville some people to really prove that the market system. Now the great tragedy Apparao security police is at war with the mouse. Yet actually he transferred this whole method. Industry to that you gave them up the biggest boost they've ever had in America to control the drug trade is incredibly lucrative trade, so there's a kind of irony. In that I mean one hundred Smith Williams. The doctor he destroyed saw how much the mark the benefits from it he assumed for Harry. I'm thinking must be in the pay of the mafia, because his the Mafia doing so well out of answering his policies. Actually that was done was wrong.

And you can understand why why haven't been installed at now, it's it's also. When I talk about his first hatred in his first beer and you talk so you touched on really what people think the war on drugs really was stemmed from his, but really Talk about Harry and is in his race. Some towards Mexicans and blacks. Tell us about how he the catalyst, the story that really helped him sell this war on drugs and- calling Mexico there were lots of stories one. So he he had initially said that cannabis was not hard for not addicted. He wasn't bothered about it, but pertaining heroin, really very minor in the United States at the time, so it's kinda hard to sustain a massive government department around this Harry. Suddenly announces that marijuana is worse than heroin

and maybe recent madness- they cut it. It is now regarded as like a comedy film. That's based on our servers propaganda. He was a big fan of that. He latched on to this case and a boy in Florida called Tila Kocsor, which was a massive story at the time: huge, win, the biggest reason. America, basically it to the concert, was a young man in his early 20s. I believe who hacked his family's death with an axe and answer announces right This is the result of him. Having smoked marijuana, we need to ban marijuana. We need to press on and that person these papers, which is the kind of Fox news of its day. Possibly runs with this story years, features like spring into place. Someone goes back and actually looks at this guy psychiatric files, but it didn't know It's easy use marijuana. He can jump it. Family is of his family. His family been told to put him in

secure unit years before they insisted on keeping the home up. The hysteria begins. Anslinger is genius, taking the fears that our. Solid state and and really get you in so long through the kind of lightning conductor, the department as using these fees may, since there isn't a lot for the full story, the the answering a builds, the modern drug war. Now Billie Holidays, this other central figure in this and so tell us about Billie Holiday a little bit. You talk, in your book about her early life and why she might have chose drugs is some sort of pain, soother, so tell us about Billie Holiday and how Harry Anslinger and her life This collide, but you're totally right and it was incredibly moving. I track down everyone. I could find he's still alive He is need to be holiday, unobserved existing work on her as well. It was so

Fucking Billy holiday. I grew up in a pot. Baltimore called pig town is the last part of the United States. Do not have a search system because she some sense of what it was like and when she was ten years old or eleven, I think she was raped and by a stranger when the police came, they keep her being a prostitute and the guy you brought to punish, but she published a longer sure, since this reform but it would be incredibly personal nuns who locked issue with disappear. Looks are the not in with a dead body She ran away. She run away to Harlem to find her mother. Her mother was working in a brothel sitting on the edge of fourteen starts working in this possible. Right. The money along but another with the police capture. Again again she sent to prison. You know it's partly insanity of that Billie Holiday, just needed to stun her grief, I think, and when, as were saying before, you know when the federal bureau narcotics starts a stalker come

if they hated employing african Americans, but you couldn't really send a white guy, it's harder to start Billie holiday noise. This guy called Jimmy Fletcher. Who is an african american agent, Anthony Fletcher spent two years following her. He watches and gets to know dances with she was so amazing. Jimmies lecture fell in love with her and its whole life. He thought change the very good to her. He passed she's put on trial. She said the trial was good the United States versus Billie Holiday and that's how it felt and she prison and when she gets sound, she can't before. 'cause. You needed a license to perform anywhere where alcohol is served. Your answering I had it denied to her. He also got her huh can be discussed in disgusting good listener, calling to start forming on us at two one and

hi friend Yolanda Van said to Maine paraphrasing exact words are in the book that something like. What's the coolest thing you can do to a person to take away the thing they love and you know to take away Sis in Philly Holidays is incredibly cool. She she went wherever they would happen, but it was very hard and she relapsed is, of course, how could she not in that situation, when she's in her early 40s collapses in New York, city and she's taken to hospital? The first hospital turn turn away, and the second hospital takes there this one of those friends that their not agents aren't finished. With her, she said they're going to kill me man, don't let them they're going to kill me in there and I in should be the last about in person to be in that room. Is she died? They handcuffed her to the bed. Then they arrested her, even though they knew she had liver cancer. They arrested her on her deathbed. They It's a quarter. Have flowers on the record player did not have friends in to see her one of her friends managed '

Mcguffey managed to insist that she was given methadone 'cause. She got into withdrawal, she started to recover, they cut off the methadone and she died. One of her friends said that should have been violently wrenched from life, but the thing that to me It really helped me to think about this and to think of I got it my own line. But Billie Holiday, never stop singing that song, no matter what they did to her. She found somewhere to see it. She would go anywhere that have her and to know the addicts can be heroes to know that addicts can be so so wrong. You know that the strength of just carrying on when your entire propane and then at the strength of Billie Holiday, did you know, while we're talking PIG all over the world are listening to Billie Holiday and feeling stronger, I'm not really happy. I think a lot of that story helps to understand the madness of what we do How did you know? I went out with a chain gang in Arizona of women who are forced, go out. T shirts, saying I was a drug addict and big grades right,

going to work again in the legal economy, what we do- disability holiday, we're doing all over the developed world. We give our dicks criminal records, which is crazy. Take something people make them suffer more in the hope that making Scott, but also it helps some. Racial dynamics in drug war, the same time that carry out there finds out Billie Holiday's an addict. He finds out with Judy Garland. He Td Garden she's going to be fine, that she should take slightly longer vacation and reassure everything's! Ok, you know spot the difference that racism cuts right, three to the present day, African, because the more likely to be drug dealers than anyone else, but they make up the overwhelming majority of people who go to prison for it. Both dynamics is still at work now and the central figure in this, because we talk about the that the consequences of you know. Just the addict the user being caught up in this drug war, but also, what do you say drug, delivers this this in, edible, unregulated market to organize

crying so talk about organized crime. Back in the beginning of this nineteen, after one thousand nine hundred and fourteen, and then you also talk about the Zetas in Mexico. Present day. So, let's go back to Arnold Rothstein. How we came from yeah automotive is such a classic man Marianne singers. Inventor of the multidrug drug honor book stated, adventure, boat and drug dealing when he was three years old, his father, he was a very respected orthodox jewish trader walks into his the nursery in his and he sees all of three years old standing over his your brother with a knife you know like to bring attacking him a big kitchen there. An Ottawa ST, I was going to be a psycho right, but auto rough teen witch handed one of the biggest industries in the United States, and it was fascinating because when I was,

picture a cover, the story of you can recover the story on say it 'cause. He kept records. I wanted to have drug dealing was crazy. On the drug dealers that have off right, but it really bothers me because I was able to reconstruct the public because almost if so owned the Nypd, we actually would give quite open interviews where he talks, for everything it also his wife, Carolyn Rotary. Definite remembered, it was very hard to track down, but once I did, it is super interesting. Unboxing was an extreme mainly cold and arrogant man. He he rises. Three at least I'm only seventeen and basically becomes a kind of professional rambler they quite quickly realizes. People are really willing and, like other people who are in the casinos, so he these casinos what he a genius. If I is working, he wouldn't be with broad jump. He he would bribe horse racing people and he is probably still now most famous for rigging the nineteen nineteen world series. He bride Boston, Red Sox, to throw the game and made a fortune

not not when drugs and Ottawa Stickers, I smart guy. He can see this opportunity when it's coming. He knew Alco perdition is great, but it wasn't going to last forever and he really latches onto the drug trade and he the first one to kind of really industrially import drugs I'm just kind of merciless people. He buys the police to the point, he's really above the law, one for yes and shoots up to Nypd officers and is mysteriously a corset. Is there a story about audible? He is an he does this drug deal with a guy called Captain Alfred Low, including who is the third richest man in America likely come like bill gates. Celebrities running world sorry about the bill gates with time he was so rich was a financed ear, but when the germ see Belgium during World WAR, one loves the offer to buy it back from two cents about Richie were five thousand and when it comes to new york- and we roughed in his sign the biggest drug deal in history and he flies back,

Europe and when the plane lands Lowenstine isn't on it and the crew say ope, he went to the toilet and fell out Nazi. In Verbmobil, presumably whatever money out of the skin got in that drug deal. She capped gives you a sense of who are often with argument build in nineteen, twenty nine right, we don't know who, by his shot one day, answer the park Central Hotel in Manhattan it. What is it 57th and Broadway? I think- and you know, the police are basically she's scared to investigate and it was fine. It made it really see the dynamics of the drug bordinat. There's a bicycle Charles Bowden inside that died. Recently, he pointed out the war on drugs creates a war for drug you think about it right if you Amigo into the local liquor store I'm in Toronto, you only have liquor, liquor store and we tried to steal them. Yeah! Well the vodka. I just gonna call the cops right The cops will deal with those.

If we got to local weed dealer, the local cape fear that I'm trying to steal their goods obviously take harboring the police, the police would arrest done so they had to be violent. There has to be hurt in order to stop people green, but they don't have any recourse to the law, so it creates what the physiologists loop was recalled: a culture of terror and the first person to really see that is lost in you have to be terribly, you don't want to be having shootouts, so you want to be theatrically. Scary and rough thing is I mean why I think about almost like the killing of the Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo at the first bullet in this global war, because what you get that in honor of speed does not die. Arnold's been just get to increasingly insane and psychotic culture. One of those things, darwinian evolution armed the little baggie of crack, because every gangster who killed the next one has to. Copper and harder than the one before so on a rough teen I mean wouldn't last two hours into

so far as well. I went to to to to do research in Northern Mexico. You see this going up to the Crips and the bloods Pablo Escobar check out this month that that you have this increased, really insane dynamic, where there's an advantage to really learn that most from serial killer, I interviewed, Rosale arrest, the prison inside a county in Texas to interview him. He he grew up in in and right on, the border Norton. Basically the writers on the Texas side in the way of a militant on the mexican side, and it basically the senses and with a the border between them. The kind of highly artificial between them and when he was thirteen kids, you go cross the border all the time because you know it can be the site is which is the back and when he was, thirteen in circumstances are disputed, but never to see that happen. He joins the basis, the deadliest mexican drug cartel through the ages of thirteen and seventeen he kills

around seventy people. Seventy through the heading through I mean horrendous, they're very fast, I to me, and I go to this prison in with a with a good amount short, but I'm with him, but the God said to me. I, like your accent, you can stay as long as you want. He also said that it was slightly weird. They said well obviously kill, some people. We can't leave your words like kill people. We can't leave you on your own with them them and they just laughed came back like two hours later and slightly annoyed that history was super interesting about to understand it's really one of the very few people in the world. We can tell what life is like on the inside of them. Can drug cartel how that works. This is what I found the most fascinating and probably the most relevant to this this audience, and it is the most profound example of the misstep understatement, I know, but the the

extrapolation or the evolution from Ross Teen to the data, so tell us more about this camp because you take us right into what he says is when he's thirteen he's guns instead of going summer camp like a lot of kids that go to this kind of cap and train, tell us what he sees and what he's trained in specifically yeah It's really great when he was fifteen years old in two thousand and five goes to this summer. Camp it's a it's training time. I just read one of the quotes from him. People can hear the full quotes on chasing thescream dot com. The committee interviewed him and some things you said, but tell me about the headache this time, so she went down to the soul blood everywhere when they start to hit the jugular, and he just clicks his fingers. It's everywhere they put the head right there, the head still moves make spaces and everything I think the nerds you can see inside bone everything's moving? It's like the gold ones.

I've seen it, but it's on the ground, if he's making a screaming faces, days like that, sometimes sometimes it slacks off what you put these kinds of techniques of how to dissolve body how to behead people. How to use the maximum possible violence accounts, slogan is, if I retreat kill me and and and that's really what what he, what he learns he's kind of kept like top human, his friends, Jesse and Gabriel, who also from Laredo that coat type. You never know where you're going to go. He worked for Gaga Miguel Trevino, who to become the head of the bases, and you give us a sense, kill people, you don't know who could be sent to kill. I go to the store in the book of what exactly what he did and how he did it, and yet he he regards this is very until two stores and basically once he did he's taken to this this. This is our first day he's taken to the states work space. It's not that

She people tried up and to one side that got oil drums and they just burn them alive and to the other side of people being doctor pieces and the data is you that's torture, other gang members or anyone in kind of angers them. Look to find out so houses the routes who they work for what they do, that kind of thing and after they did that they make then the bodies into what's called boy so, which is the spanish word for statue there put them in kind of acid and resolve them, and he is personally? I would take him there now. He says that he was kind of kidnapped, forced to go there, made to kill someone and once you're in what the process actions that against him is you know he wanted to sign up. He wanted to go. He was really excited to be a greater, certainly when he first arrested. That's what he says. He kind of talks is incredibly hyped up. An amped up comparisons after James Bond- and you know, but one of these days meeting as well, and so it

recently, when I went to Juarez I've shown around by this guy called Houliang. Cardona is an amazing journalist. Is the Lord says, correspondent in in higher It's related in some way it looks, like any other, looks like a normal american city, there's a KFC in a Wendy's and you could buy a flat free tv and it feel very familiar, and then you discover that the murder conviction rate is two percent, so that can percent didn't do it, but really stuck me with Juliana said to him at one point. After few days, Inn kept introducing me to people have been killed by the police, and I said you know yeah. This is it for the people to be killed by the cops houses. Are your hand up to stop the car is now. If the console's wanna kill someone, they just pay the police that they don't separate. Forces and Rosario told me that as well. He would very often go out with the police to carry out the massacres that the police work for the data storage is that if you look at a housing project, What about what you

will it right housing project in Brownsville Brooklyn, where you know, let's say five to ten percent of the he is in the hands of on criminal gang selling drugs that housing projects to their miserable place to live inquiries. It's seventy percent of the economy, seventy Decem, so the cartels can compared to the state. They can pay better wages, the mistake, so they basically become and stay away. I kind of kind of him Imagine if the Crips and the bloods did the LAPD to work for them and therefore cook. Give a LOS Angeles, that's basically what happened and run I really like that. You know they were the law and what they're doing is they talk? Turn people that that killing people that they send messages written in human flashing at the cartel service systems signals. So if you betray the cart, How do I shoot you in the MAC? If you talk too much the shooting in the map, if you're spying

we should do in the ear and it's like everybody is like a billboard, billboard, advertising your car telephone officious and it's important to understand. This, isn't just like I don't know, saw movie style, psychopathy right, isn't Jeffrey Dahmer. This is the result of the system that we created. If you've got a system. Where is a really popular product, is in the hands of armed criminal gangs who compete, to control that market and have no recourse to the laws protect their property. What happens is the way they competed. If you are, the person is proof, had to push a moral boundary a little bit further. If you're prepared to be that low little bit more terrifying, Ugena bullies competitive advantage. So if you are, for example, the store spencers we're not going to kill the other side, we're going to kill their wives. You get a brief of bronze, if you say you know what we actually kill their wives, going to kill that didn't lives, then you get in advantages that you know would be killer on Youtube. When you get above, you said you were going to cut off their faces, so their faces onto a football and send the football to those

Or something that actually happened again, you get a brief competitive advantage is really important to understand. This is not just click on the video, but clearly the people involved on the right. It's it's! The product of the system we created Milton Friedman's, but you know the Nobel Prize Winning economist Milton Friedman said: Al Capone was the product of alcohol prohibition, the Crips and the into the product of drug prohibition. I would add devices now the product of that and power went wrong with Rosario, and one of the reasons why he and go down actually is because he was so clicked up and so amped up by all this killing the at because it's just kind of randomly killing people, he threw a hand grenade into a night and is just you just rammed it. They don't want to Jeffrey Dahmer right there. Violence is psychotic, but target is and that's how Rosario out there getting MRS disputes if disputed, he claims that

get out, he shot himself in the leg. He certainly has a bullet wound in his leg and showed it to Maine. He claims you have right so for like in the hope that they would go. Ok. Well, you can just leave now, but of course they didn't, he kind of he claims to kind of kill his way out and many contacts, American American play. Jamaican background the border and he testifies and he serving two consecutive life sentences in MID, he's just about ways in his 80s. He lives in constant sorrow We confinement because Did they let him out of prison population is immediately stabbed because only where all these uh that mostly in there for life anyway, that their family ok, huge amount of money from the data and even the guards said to me on the way in something like that was on the website. You can say, like it, be nothing for these people to take Contrast that with him here you know, so it was really fascinating to get the insight in

How I'm sorry? It was right at what he did and Justin Gabriel his two friends. We grew up with. They were killed. He lost a buddy stages at that they call. These kids installed sold they just called and Expendables, which is exactly exactly right. Now, and I don't want to make it sound to the audience that this is not at very optimistic book, but in yet it really isn't. It is really some really nice. He's in here of success and in optimism and hope. So, let's talk about one of the. Most profound stories in here about the rat experiments of before of probably in the 70s drugs and rats and your friend, the rat experiment in rat park- tell us about that. If you had said to me four years ago I don't know what causes heroin addiction. I would've liked

you like your little bit simple minded and I wouldn't have heroin, causes heroin addiction right. It seems kind of obvious. For one hundred years, we've been told a story about addiction, that's become basically are kind of common sense, and I certainly believed believed that I mean addiction in my family. I have strong reason to believe that it was explained to me I couldn't really understand very well advised If you were me, that is just a part of once you finish this recording done. If you step out on the street, and you hit by car, God forbid and you to be taken to hospital and then given quite likely will be given a lot of diamorphine diamorphine is heroin, is actually Credit be stronger, is much stronger. However, you have to get on the streets 'cause. It is medically pure right. You'll be given it's quite a long period of time, Ann that's happening in every hospital. Anyone is listening to this. Anyone in the developed anywhere in the developed world that's happening right and what we believe about addiction is right. The addiction is caused by a chemical hook in the draw

that like, if you need in the next twenty people. Listening to this show, if we all used heroin, twenty days twenty one we'd all be heroin attics, because our body would start to physically needs the heroin. If that Please write what should happen to those medical so they should come out about it. So should trying to school on the streets that never happens virtually what happens really notice was not turned into think he bought her hip replacement operation. So I didn't quite what to do with this until I went to bank to me there lots of your Canadian as well, so the heroes of my book of Canadian met this extraordinary man called Bruce Alexander, his professor in Vancouver. I'm priest, explained to me the story about addiction that we've all come to believe in that Bruce Lee. Comes from experiments with an earlier in the twentieth century. There really simple experiments

this is completely behind mister feeling a little bit for this. Did you get a rat and you put it in a cage when you give it two water bottles? One is just water. And one is water. Laced would be the heroin or cocaine if you do that, the rat will almost always prefer the drug water and almost always kill itself. So there you go. That's our theory of addiction, in the 70s breeze comes along and says one minute, put Indesign an empty cage. It's got nothing to do except take the drug water. Let's do this differently, so Bruce built Rat park. That park is like Heaven for rats anything Iraq had one. It's got in rap parties get loads of nice. Food is does it colored balls, but they just friends. It can have loads of sex anything or right. Once we've got at least got both the water bottles. It's got flood waters on normal war. But here's what fascinating in the rats. Don't like the drug, they hardly ever use it. Never over those I mean

never use in a way that it's compulsive there's a really interesting human example of exactly the same principle that was going on, but you can take back in a minute, but it's not free. So this shows that both right wing theory of addiction on the left wing theories of addiction are wrong. The right New theory of addiction is, you know, it's uh, model sailing the party too hard, with a kind of had missed all that stuff. The left wing theory is This is the the text of your brain to come help plans. Pretty says this is not your morality. It's not. Your brain is you'll trade Addiction is largely an adaptation to your environment, human being need bond with each other. We need to be connected. If you call and with the people around you, your calls cut off cool the tall. For whatever reason you will bond with something that gives you pleasure. You will connect with something that might be drugs that might be pornography. That might be a roulette wheel, but human being bonding creatures. We need.

Need to bond the human example that the same time, which is fascinating and baseball just recent notice, the drug war? But I a lot about our society. The example the Vietnam WAR during the twenty send of all american troops. Would using heroin regularly If you look at the news reports from the they were really worried. 'cause, I thought oh, we're going to have hundreds of thousands of junkies on the streets of the United States when the war end 'cause. They believe the old theory of addiction and what happened: they came home and they virtually all stops The overwhelming majority of ninety five percent just stop which rehab going to a to stop, because, if you take it out of a hellish pestilential jungle where you don't want to be in, could be killed at any moment, and you go back to a nice life in Wichita. Ks that be equivalent of being taken out of first Cajun being put into rat park. I supposed to think that well, why, need to pick up people in my life who added WHI

also many. Why so many of our fellow citizens unable to get through life without being you and me we could be drunk right. We could be drinking vodka, we're not because we something we want to be present present within a logical jobs. We live with people, we love got things we want to do, Alex, can't bear to be present in their lives because their lives had become unbearable for one reason or another, and we've got a blood war. That's built on the idea that we should make them suffer more dabble Marquez like amazing doctor who works with hardcourt, worked with hardcore addicts in Vancouver, certainly something like if you wanted to design a system that would keep people addicted, you design, the system we have you know think about what we did: killing holiday, so yeah not really blew my mind. I don't know any of this movie before I started now before we get into the dramatic difference in in how some countries, chosen to look at

addiction. I would have to just talk about Squ space just for a second, because this episode has been brought to you by square space. I know if you in to see the recent super bowl, but the dude aka Jeff Bridges has partnered with square space to bring his unique project life, Jeff and his musical friends have created an album of soothing and laxing sounds guided, meditations and stories designed to lull you to sleep. You can check get out at triple w dreaming with Jeff dot com, and you saw is really cool commercial at the super bowl now square space is simple power: beautiful power, beautiful, twenty four slash. Seven support, vial, which, at an email, its own, eight dollars a month and you get a free domain. If you buy square space for the entire year, it's got a design your website scales to look great on any device mobile device. Every way

site comes with a free online store, so that takes care of your commerce end of your website and cover pages of feature that allows you to set up a beautiful one h, online presence in just minutes and so start a trial with the no credit card required and start building your website today and when you decide to sign up for square space, make sure to use the offer code. True murder, to get yourself. One, ten percent off your first purchase, we thank Square base for the support of this episode of true murder, Johann Hari and Square space, build it beautiful okay, you, let's talk about the dramatic stories that you have of the difference in approaches you, touched on the BC, safe injection site story. So Why don't you first talk about 'cause? I think of this be very dramatic to see the difference, vote Arizona and

the APOLLO cooking in a cage and then we'll talk about the safe injection site and Portugal. When I went I lost one of my standard I pop is the prison part prison system. Prison is run by uncle Joe are Pio who's. The personal disciple of Harry Anslinger, which is partly why I wanted to do and Joe Playspace lets out. When I mentioned her dancing in the somebody that will love them. When I went Arizona. Thank you who is what's on amazing woman who works some prisoners rights in Arizona and unless there much time there, questions which is like telling me about something that talk to you in a ton of work to listen, she's going through this long list and summer damage. She said there was a timer put that woman in a cage and cooked it's bad and she carried on, and I said sorry Donna. Could you get back? A second there's only called, but him very little with moment. I started to do for the book

it shows a woman in her 40s you captain busted, either for having Mackle for prostituting herself to get mass and one day one thousand and nine. She wakes up in Perryville prison in Arizona which is not run by jail. Pirate ship pointed out and suicidal and the doctor refused to believe her, take care out and they put her in a holding cage, which is literally a cage exposed to them right. This is Arizona and they left her there. She cried she back to the water she messed herself, but and by the time they called an ambulance. She had been cooked. No one was ever criminally punished, bought his gun Powell and other one track down the father of her children and got the story of her life, which is very like Billie Holiday's life. She had been thrown out when she was thirteen. She lived on the beach, almost certainly better child prostitute, again, a person that was trying to stun her pain and the thought that this was done to her.

She actually had a period if I like, when she got clean, just clean for more than a year. She went back to Arizona to get her kids back 'cause. They have been taken into care by the state and she was but different old marijuana conviction in our whole life unraveled again Anne. I compare that to the place I went to have gone beyond the war on drugs. You mentioned Vancouver listening credit, cool story there about how a homeless ST addict started an uprising in Vancouver and it completely changed the city in the year two thousand, the Houma ST radical bottles born, was watching his friends all around him and would use behind dumpsters, cops to see? Obviously, the cops can't see you and starts opening. No one configuring your phone like a day later, you're dead and but thought have to do something about but you also so I'm just a homeless junkie. What can I do really simple idea. He said why don't we gotta get a group of the r when we're not using, which is most of the time,

What it would have a schedule, will the parade up and down alleyways and if someone who being will just call an ambulance- and I started to do it- it goes on for a few months. Overdose rates, bunch of relief all over downtown inside which will listen as well How is an area with huge number attics in it, and that was great in itself, but partly in mathematics, Tucker or maybe we're not the kind of pieces of rubbish people say we all, but we could. We could do simple, which is based off of public meetings with ever discussed. Unlike the menace of the addicts and they share the back and after well, that's not the hand, so I think they're talking about. Is there anything we can do differently and sometimes people hold people to speak with the the little needles lying around so around the funny would extend the the the patrol. I'm a Clinton, it'll start doing it for the money, can you spot so it's in the in Frankfurt, Germany, they're open, safe, injecting rooms where people could go we use the heroin legally ending monitored by doctors and the

that that is huge for the death right and thought that so we have to have this in Vancouver that I haven't anything like it in North America since answer, and so they started to stalk them. Error, Vancouver It was a right wing, very wealthy businessmen, pitching Mitt, Romney and you've got the idea, and then he said that had it should be closely paid at the local military base right and for two years everywhere. Filippone goes in public, they just stalk him and they carry a coffin and the coffin. So something like Google Dynex Filippo in before you open it both injecting program and uh the two years of this they're starting to lose four and one de Filippo. In his eternal credit, so hello. All these people, these people does include me, says the downtown Eastside and Eliezer loaded Addicks, and then it goes to Meatloaf and Friedman Nobel Prize Winning economist, explains how the drug works in him and Filippo and comes back and help the press conference, and he has the chief of police the coroner and at it.

This is a medical talk about addiction again without having out it's with me. I look at it in the first place and some drug ring in North America. We could have the most compassionate drug policies in North America will get to turn things around and they opened the sauds injecting program in North America. And it's been ten years now, I should say the problem with selected by his own political party to so horrified by what he done and it's ten years Ten years when I went there, overdose has fallen by eighty percent. Eight zero percent and average life expect show me downtown excited by ten years and when I not off die- got to know him quite well and interviewed in the law, but Osborne, the addictives star. Inside and they sealed off the street the downtown inside where he had lived homeless and they had incredible, memorial service for him and there a lot of people in the crowd that

he knew that they were live because of what by the started, annotator anyone in specifics about the drug war. This is such a bad policy, but it is so big. This is with so powerless. We all feel powerless. Sometimes I would send you are so much more powerful than you know, but it was a homeless tree addict. He started an uprising is completely transformed the city there's so much. We can do about it. What happened to go so yeah what happened to Billie Holiday? What happened to all these people? None of this has to happen. We can, choose it'll kind. Now, let's talk about before we talk about another? under the lead Maddox in the? U S and transformation in thinking. Let's go to Portugal, with this again real life experiment in decriminalization of all drugs. So let's tell us Portugal and how they came to this and what was their state before this? You talk about their heroin rates and they're

their addiction problem. So tell us about Portugal and again two thousand by the year. Two thousand Portugal had the work one of the worst drug problems in Europe, one percent of the popular addicted to heroin. Much worse but anything in the US and every year they tried the american way they crack down harder. They arrested people and every the problem got worse, so, finally, the panel of scientists and doctors. Define extraordinary, mangled cloud reliable and they basically said looked at what will genuinely deal with this problem and the panel came back and it said, decriminalised everything from cannabis to crack a whole lot. But- and this is the crucial next step- use all the money we currently spend on arrest drug addicts, imprisoning drug attics, trying drug addicts take all that money and spend it on really good drug treatment. It's not really what we think of as drug treatment of in North America and Western Europe and parties things

Re happens like local support, which is useful, but mainly it's it's an it's going. Pretty woman learns the lesson of rock hello. It's drug addiction is giving. Clients was reconnecting addicts with So I see, if you think, about what we were saying about, why you and I are not drunk now, because I've got things to do. The goal of the portuguese decriminalization is to make sure that every addict had some purp. It's not like it's going to wake up for in the morning. So one of the things that one of the main planks of it is just subsidized jobs, so used to be your snack, right. It used to have used to be a mechanic they'll go to a carriage and they'll say. If you employ this guy for a year, We will pay off his wages. Marker for for addicts of businesses with another big thing and The result it's been nearly fifteen years, injecting drug use is down by fifty percent. Five zero percent of the dose is most of the damage of the transmissions with although it's moving into services among Quantic, where he

We led the opposition to the ending the drug war in Portugal and it was said a lot of things that love you, so that we understand it may be thinking he said. Surely, if we is the top drug copy said, surely, if we curved lines will have massive increase in drug use and all the problems that come with it and what he said to me. But the exact words are on the website that you said everything I said would happen We didn't have everything, I said what happened didn't happen and everything the other side said would happen did, and he talked about how he regretted they'd spent twenty was ashamed. That's about twenty years, arresting drug users and hope the whole world followed. Portugal's example. Now? We talked about so I just introduced Lee Matic. Maddox, and how did she become a soldier in the war on drugs. That's fascinating store your book, and I don't you to go too far into it. But what motivated her to go so so seriously involved and then what was the event? The change sure direction drastically. In this war. Lee Matic signs up to be a cop in

in Baltimore MD, because her best friend is murdered by what she believes is the drug gang and Lee Mattix have sole motive. Is I want to bankrupt these drugs? I want to destroy them. She becomes a militant drug war issues like sherry and thing is green. Go, but pneumatics is an honest person. She notices two things: one is they? Are they really bust, what people and secondly, the the? If your call You rest a rapist the next week that lost weight in your town and you culturally drug dealer well, there's no less drug dealing. Everyone knows that, but something even weirder happens. The murder rate actually goes up and we couldn't really figure. It now, but then she kind of realized what you did to trigger a turf war when you but if you have a patch controlled by gangsters and kill knockout like gangster, you rival, drug gangs will fight each other in huge numbers of people die in the crossfire and, of course,

He was dying so Lee now spent quit the police force retrained of a lawyer and now spends her time was such an amazing person getting the criminal records wherever she can quash the people for drug convictions. Was interesting too, is that you introduce her to an organization called leap. Just briefly tell us about leap, it was something that was already engaged with that leap is, it sounds for law enforcement against prohibition and ivory recommend anyone checking out my website. They extorted their former cops former judges, former prosecutors, who had thought the drug war and seen only inside that it's a disaster. We need To regulate the market in drugs and reclaim it from criminal gangs. No practical example of that you put in the book about Uruguay, so tell us how your ago, it came to legalize marijuana and how that what that model looks like and what was the result. I

need to be. President Mahika is such an incredible man, but he was the leader of the kind of guerrilla resistance in Uruguay in the 70s he was imprisoned by the dictator. We kept at the bottom of a well for two years and he emerges to become hugely pops. Politicians, like the Mandela of South America, and he lived in a shack. The whole family was president. I went to the shack is no exaggeration to say Steven HA, Put David Cameron would not keep their shoes in the pro places that he can live and he kept the original that he could work legalize marijuana did legalize marijuana is because he sold supply routes for drugs. In The whole point right and he knew it is a huge crack on the mexican border and the supply route moves and stocks to go through your. They were completely defenseless the goal military is not military. The tree, because it strong military, you can't defend against it, and he said the only thing we can do to protect ourselves to legalize, so he became the first president's asterisk

side just fully legalize marijuana, the same thing that happened in Colorado and Washington. The only time I ever saw my father cried with the day my daughter lives in Berlin for a long time. I came on that. I was ten years old and is watching the Berlin Wall come down is so? I never thought I'd see this and when I the results, Washington, Colorado they've made it to legalize marijuana at K, it's in my mind that it felt like the first acts swung into the Berlin Wall of the drug war, and I think this whole thing is going to come down now that does I mean obviously that we're going to have all drugs available to all people. No one wants there to be a crack island cvs. Different, we have different kinds of regulations, are different these drugs, so Switzerland is legalized heroin addicts that doesn't mean you can go into the store and buy it. It means if you're an addict will be assigned to a clinic and you can into the clinic, and you sit there and you can't take it out and they have had no faithful. This from her into the star gate: nine, those clinics. None of

straight up. Zero is your sense of how well these policies work when you introduce them. This book is not only Just chronicle the facts of the last one hundred years: it is a call to action, and you also describe the the historical flight in June, one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Greenwich Village, and what Rock Obama had said about that. Tell us about what he said and why you have included in why you think it has a parallel to that. The search the yeah, if you think about you have two thousand years ago, people being persecuted. Horrifically right. One day in one thousand, nine hundred and sixty three a bunch of drag queens hot into the more despised and marginalized group. Just one, say that, like you know what you're not going to treat like this anymore and they start to riot and. You gotta remember in one thousand nine hundred and sixty three, the pro gay position was to say

the no evil over six. It is very position at each so like gay marriage, didn't even ask for that and they would even have a concept of acts. It would have seemed like. So live on Mars right. Some of those we thought about what needs to see the introduction of gay marriage it is to change the unimaginable to what we are. Did you know when the government in nineteen sixty three with under the drug will not because of you know, twenty twelve? Can you know I think, we'll get to see the end of this? pull up the adaptation and adoption of policy, but you have liberty to drug users who are not harmed and love and compassion for addicts turn the lights around One of the things you really talk about in stress in this book is is that the theory and again, we talked about in a rat park, but the tactical solution to addiction. If we No matter if we use that word or discount that word, but if we just use it the practical purposes of this argument. What is the

single thing that we have to deal with, and illustrated in the Rat park experiment with addiction. And trying to cease addiction or reduce the open, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety it was good. Diction is connection when you are connected person with health Verizon connections in your life that nourish you make you feel good and give you meaning you want to present in the life of Symmetry Alex. I love I've seen this in Portugal, a significant Switzerland, you We have a model that the way to deal with addicts, is to make them suffer more. Weather in Arizona in that prison intensity or went to one of the sultry confined blocks or cycle the whole, and these women just shut in there for months at a time, and I suddenly thought. Oh, my god, this is the closest you could possibly to a literal human recreation of those first pages that guaranteed

that people stayed addicted. You know whole model we've heard about how to deal with addicts epical. Remember, like you know, like bedlam. Put in mentally ill people in cages that didn't go and look at them. You know so there's no one solution for addiction. It's an incredibly complex phenomenon We need to have a very broad menu. Some of it needs to be subsidized jobs like importable. Some of it needs to be prescription for people who can't stop like in Switzerland. Some of it needs to be twelve step. Programs support for Sprite E. You know for the people who want that, and that can be fantastic. You need to have a very broad range of options, and you only He was one solution for connected to it said a charlatan, but the underlying then Corbin is to help people connect and bond and find meaning with all the uh it's of organization, like Leap and all the people, in the awareness of citizenry and now

in the last one hundred years and growing in momentum, have the Colorado in the Washington state initiatives. You have the The opposition party in Canada as a main platform for the next election is legalization of marijuana with all those efforts. What does the marijuana initiative itself because we're talking about legalization of all drugs as a concept How important is the marijuana, legalization, movement and success to this entire movement? Oh, it's massively map important. It's like it's like you think about the rights struggle goes stages, and you know you have things like. Decriminalization of homosexuality is the first step in lend with gay marriage in the complete leader, the achievement of the goals. Until about legalizing drugs. Actually reiterate that doesn't mean dogs being available like marijuana, should be available. So you think about we,

do. We have all the existing mode, is regulation, we need we regulate alcohol. One way we regulate sleeping pills. Another way right, you can't just go into CVS and buy by really powerful sleeping because we got bad jet back at the moment. I wish I could you know you can't do not seem to get prescription to that. So obviously works different. For drugs, so with marijuana with I was just ecstasy in certain party drug drugs. You could regulate them like alcohol, clearly with some like terror in you would regulate it? Much more like sleeping pills, are actually have the swiss model, which is even tighter sleeping pills. We had to go to a clinic to use it now the debate about what you would do about things like crack and math, which are clearly very physically destructive drugs, with with something like that. What I would recommend would be probably- and we need to experiment very cautiously, some very or what I have is on what you do. You have safe spaces where you could go and get those,

drugs that you wouldn't be allowed to leave, while you were under the influence of them were not given that the reality is that people are doing it anyway, we want to use it in place with doctors where they can be given support that they needed help to stop where they where they're, not chaotic and on the streets. I think that would with this model so illegal It's for both is a way of regulating and controlling. Because of the moment we have a total anarchy, I'm criminal, so chemicals to unknown users, all in the dark, with disastrous consequences for everyone. We it's a restore with restore the order that prevailed before the drug war. When it's go back to the situation that Henry Smith Williams, nearby, I'm on kind of run the clock backwards? On the I agree- and I want to for the incredible amount of research and time and effort that you put into This book and, like I said pre Basically, this is not just a book chronicling, some facts. This is a

will call to action and to get involved. So, as you do put in the book, you leave a website for people that want to get involved. So could you give us that, at press and if they want to connect with you, I I know you on Facebook tell us how people can connect with you. About your website and what they might find there great to chase him scream call on those you can listen to interviews with all the people I've been talking about, so the serial killer and far at that, the circular he is from no Mexico. It was on. The rocks, are adamant that president, he taught a whole range of people and. You could also find people want to get involved with things. I think it also there's a facebook page for it, which is just the first page, is chasing the screen, which is the get updates. You can watch loads of interviews with me when I'm talking about this. And I just want to thank you Dan from reading the book so closely, and I actually, I was hugely influential true crime books that I most loved as a teenager. There's an amazing too.

Crime, but I should really be recommending. Other peoples will be called off, but it by my publisher, british, true crime box, I'm sure you guys what Brian Brian masters most yes, amazing particles he's gonna snow. Actually, here but I really hope this current print called she. Must have known the trial of Rosemary W, which is a trial of the wife of the british serial killer. Who is the surface area, which is a really incredible, but I'm sure that. Because of the of the dna of true crime, because I just loved her crowded, because last night, hugely underrated genre. Well, I think that but I was talk about. Is that true, crime, John or really is history? It's just a specific I guess it's still just history, and so as this book really clearly explains you. You really get reminder of the history and it's all tied in what I found interesting was last week's episode was Murder INC.

So when you talked about Arnold Rothstein, the most prolific group of murderers were had their opportunity in in nineteen thirty to nineteen, for because of prohibition so and rug. We have seen it. We've transferred one of them if there industries in the world into the hands of some- the worst people in the world, and we don't have to do that, but would you rather the drug trade, controlled by Rosalea Retta and his bosses open your local doctor. It was so striking for Maine tremendous sense of relief? I thought when I went to go after the drug, when I couldn't quite figure out, I would go to these places where drugs have been legalized and I would speak to the people involved and weird feeling and acting like uh. Place it on after marijuana, something cool own, I'm bored, suddenly they've taken this thin seems like a violin. I'm Dave,

The orange one amazing achievement. You know that. Actually what happened? to the court for you get. You know like one of the guys, a guy, I think its D Fox, in that the Colorado legalization campaign said something like an interview. Not not with me said something like he does. We, you know we spend obviously is arguing about. Dang, I'm paraphrasing. So we spent all these is arguing about gang warfare and killing and slaughter. Now we spent I'm arguing about what the size of the fund on a brownie package should That's what happens with them, because you know if it comes for now, which is which is exactly how it should be absolutely, and I think this is going to be part, of that broader recognition. I think for everybody from a grandmother suffering from an illness and is given their first brownie or everybody that's affected by an arrest. Like I say, unemployable and and leads all

kinds of incredible problems. The drug war has to end, and I applaud you for this extraordinary incredible effort to be able to put this book together chasing the screen want to. Thank you very much, the first and last days of the war on drugs. Thank you very much, Johann Hari for coming on and talking about chasing the scream. That was massive pleasure. Thank you thank and you have a great evening good right and damage done from a statistic. Life you know? So I can try to find his details for you. If you want, he would be a great interview I would love that I'm a big fan of his book about Dennis Nilsen, nice. If you look at my background and see why yeah, I thought about about Rosemary West is just absolutely ordinary I'll see you back into that. He must be, I think, is nearly ninety, but he uh yeah. I tried to start that business

When you can send me a link when it's without sweet, whenever it is to the interview, is that ok, absolutely I will send you all those details. Well, your very. Thank you very much for this incredible interview and you have a great night pretty good. Thanks time. You see thanks goodbye porn.

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