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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening through two trials, America watched as one Martinez relentlessly to convict Jodie Aereas, a murder one for viciously stabbing her ex boyfriend Travis. Alexander to death-

and emerged. Was a story right with sex, manipulation and deceit. That's done the pie look at every turn areas always playing the wrong. An innocent woman changed her. We continually as river bizarre behavior surrounding the crime and its aftermath came to light. Unwavering areas and her defense team continue to play off the salacious details of the case this was finally found guilty. In controversially, sentenced to life behind bars. Now speaking openly for the first time prosecutor, one Mark Martinez won't on new details from the investigation that were never or revealed that trial exploring Keith Facts on the case the pieces of evidence he chose to keep close to the vest throughout the trial. This is bullish and unfaltering prosecution strategy was both Kommen I'm criticized and in his book happiness will illuminate the unique tactics here in this case and how they lead to a successful conviction and for

first time discuss how he felt about losing the death penalty sentence he pursued for years. Part of Maine, now speaking apart me. Going beyond the news reports, Martinez will explore the truth behind the multiple facades of Jodie Aereas sparring, with her from across the stand, Martinez came to know areas like no one else could dissecting what it took: for a seemingly normal girl to become adults. Who did cunning and unrepentant murder? This book is the DAF it of account of the case that shocked America. The book that Featuring this evening is conviction the until old story of pudding, Jodie Aereas behind bars, with my special guest prosecutor and author, one Mart

this welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing this interview, one Martinez! Well, it's good. Thank you for having me here so that we could talk about the book. Thank you very much and I apologize for stumbling through that intro. Before we start. Let's have a little bit of a background on your career as a prosecutor, in Arizona and it just and everything for and you can tell us a little bit about the office that you do work in and the commute see that you do serve. So if you could tell us a little bit about your background, Please share uhm. I work for the Maricopa County Attorneys Office, an I started with the Maricopa County Attorneys office back in October of nineteen. Eighty eight this is the agency in Maricopa County that is charged, there's other agencies, but primarily charged with dealing with the felonies that

sort of actions that take place in America County I just it there. As I said in nineteen, eighty eight for the first eight years? I did not to So much lower grade felonies but not murder, I'm would say I did kidnappings, armed robberies, that sort of thing and I continue down on in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six, when I was moved or to what we called back. Then they what is now known as they are litigation Capital Litigation Bureau, with the homicide bureau and since October of nineteen ninety six. That is the place that I have called at home. So since then I've been doing the sort of the high profile kind of case it will murder cases and now specifically

I do only or I'll do mostly, but only really restricted to the capital prosecutions where the state is seeking the imposition of the death penalty right now, how it please tell us these sort of, I guess quite ordinary way that you were assigned to this case- tell us that seizure how you came to take or be assigned to this case, the Jodi Arias murder trial. Back then, the the group had had Every attorney was assigned to an on call a day or be weekend and on that particular day I was assigned on call from June nine. At eight hundred o'clock in the morning to June temp at I'm sorry, eight hundred o'clock in the morning to eight hundred o'clock the next morning and what happened in this case.

Is the the police called on June ten at eight hundred and thirty in the morning, and by that time my shift was over actually was at the office. Getting ready to to do other things, because it was past eight hundred o'clock and when I reach. The call from the sergeant at the Mesa Police Department, and that when he called he said well, we have this thing out here and and EAST Mesa and you kind of realize that my my Duties were over and he was sort of a Paula said: well, you know. If you want, I will go ahead and call the next person on the list and- I thought. Well, no, I mean he had told me that the police had been there before and that's when they discovered the body, and it was really just thirty minutes past that, the time that my my duties were over. So I just thought well in fairness. I should get out there and take a look at that rather than turning to the next person

That was not on the list, so I guess it was just situation where I didn't want to slough off the work to somebody else, now, as you point out in the book and I and it's a fascinating, the the vision that you get because of your unique perspective. As for as a prosecutor and like I'll say to the audience and problem everybody. That's a real true crime fan knows that this does not happen. Very often I mean there has been. Obviously this Marcia Clark and and helter skelter and there's a few books, but so with that not everybody knows that involvement that the prosecution you as a prosecutor is involved with the crime initially. So that's? Why you're there involved I'm going to the crime scene, but tell the relationship and how how it is separate, Obviously you're there at that time at the crime scene, but you're not

per say involved with the investigation, so tell us how that actually works. The police department called me and As they would with any other killing and death, I remember when I got there that it was already getting hot until I remember standing outside because as as I person who is not in number of the Mesa Police Department. I'm not allowed to go in until they do here, the scene they've taken a look at things and done what eh as they need to do, and so I waited approximate thirty minutes to go inside he pointed out, my role and going inside is is, is just to so that, whatever, person who committed the killing is apprehended. I will have a better understanding of the facts involvement in this case and spit typically the crime scene. So I'm there. My role is just to look around. Take a look at what I

what what's there, for example, in this case, it was this two story house whether or not it had an EAST west, a tasty EAST West things like that or you know where, where the body was found. This in this case Yes, it was the shower and just generally look at the layout- and I remember specifically in this case that I was struck by the cleanliness in the home. Usually when there has been a murder, there's, there's furniture that's in disarray knocked over pushed about not in this and the bottom there was. It was very clean. The only thing that I remember being out of place Was a dry vacuum cleaner, a wet vacuum cleaner somebody I had obviously been clean in the tile downstairs and and the downstairs actually people I'd was upstairs and so walk through. The bottom then went upstairs and when I went upstairs, that's when I walked through the walkthrough closet from the master bedroom. Into the into the

from where we're really you could see em, I think that it happened, but my role there was not to advise the police and tell him do this. Do that it was just to take a look at it and see. What was there so that I wouldn't I have to rely on pictures and they would make my presentation that much more effective at trial now tell us. So let me talk about a detective Flores and, of course he is very important figure in this. So, as you explain that your job, just to sort of get a feel for the place, but also tell us. There was very interesting to meet to learn. Again, how does the relationship progressed? The police do the investigation, but it's not like you are now be in contact with the police, so tell us Please explain that relationship of what you do with the information The investigators gather. What do you do with that? Information? Are the Mesa Police Department in this

case assigned detective Esteban Flores to be be what is called the case agent. That is the case agent. He is in charge. Sort of being the person that that's video that if there are any questions that need to be directed any assignments that need to be taken, care of person, that does that and part of his duties include keeping me in the loop or informing me, have any new developments that they may they may have in the case, and so even though, as I said before, I don't direct investigation. He would call me with updates and he would let me know how far the investigator should I progressed to what was going on so that when there came a time when I believe and at that point would be my my judgment when I we've gotta charge was appropriate. I would all

we have, if you well all of this background to it because he's been filling me in as he went along and he would submit the case, and at that point I would decide watt charge to bring forth in this case, based on every that I saw everything that was presented. I decided to file the your first degree. Murder. One other thing that I thought was so interesting is that you stress that you alone prosecute these cases, unlike other people, that would have an assistant, and it is a big workload. That you embark upon as well, so Tell us why this is important to you that you prosecute alone well, well, I would say, probably because I'm I'm not easy to get along with, but it probably would be the first thing that I would say, but no the reason I do it is that it just makes me feel more comfortable because If, finally, only one that's prosecuting this,

if I'm the only one with the case- and I am entrusted or have the duty to make, sure that I reviewed every bit of evidence that comes in, and the benefit to me of that is that I can take something that perhaps is designated or applies to something else and take a look at it. And then pull it in and say well wait a minute it actually apply. This other thing so it makes me I think, a bit more prepared. Although I will say that that that requires a lot of work, I mean. I know that that there were many, many weekends that I missed and that not sure where I'm going to get those back, but there are many, many weekends that I missed because cuz. I was reading the doc in this case that this was this was the most document intensive case that I've ever dealt with, and so That way, when I go in, I would I know everything. That's that's been presented to me I know everything that's gone out to the defense so far,

sample when it comes down to making either an argument to the court or cross examining somebody I will know what's in the file, that's not to say that for other people- that the other approach doesn't work for me, maybe perhaps I'm a bit of a I don't know, person wants to be in control of the case. And there I guess you know that there has to be one one general and I guess that would be me or one chief. I guess that would be me sure not We talked about that. You went to Mesa Arizona and to Travis Alexander's home. He had a nice home they they rented out to a couple other people, but when you're in there you spoke with detective Flores. And one of the things that he had is that they discovered while everyone has followed. This case knows they found a camera in the washing machine. Tell us about that conversation.

And how important yeah it is actually when yeah initially, when we did the walk through the main because of the walk through was actually up stairs where we saw the body and if you want and you you saw the blood on the tile in I think and and then you saw the big or void sort of pattern there between the breach between the hallway in the master bedroom. So that's sort of what called that's where we spent the majority of the time and as we walked he said, but you know, there's a camera that's in the in the wash machine. It's been run through the cycle. So I'm you know, I'm not really hopeful that anything will come from it. But I would just take a look at it, see where it is, how it sits and he opened the lid. We looked inside and and there was a camera and it was sort of nestled among Powell and I think, another article of clothing. At that point I

two given what I know it didn't seem to me that they, going to be able to extract anything from from my camera or any photo. Graphs or anything that was noteworthy. But I remember thinking why, somebody put a camera. In the washing machine it it just insane. It just seemed out of place and I could could I could understand why he wanted me to see what was there. But at that point I I can't speak for him, but I thought to myself well not sure that we're going to be able to get anything from this, probably not, but but it just shared, does raise red flag. Sure. Now detective Flores as well. We cut to the chase, I mean Obviously, Jodi Aris his name comes up almost immediately is in terms of a person of interest on how behalf what does she do with her interaction with detective florist, who contacts who

but that's another aspect of the case. Just just the washing machine just like that it would get camber the watch making washing machine. That's another thing that just didn't seem to make sense, but at that what happened was that that same day, while the detectives at the crime scene Jody areas called twice not once but twice asking to speak to somebody about the case and a lot of times you get ex girlfriends and people that are close to the victim that Colin, so what he told me about it? I was at the crime scene in her name. Come up. It came up as someone who is somewhat of a stalker kind of cleaning kind of girlfriend, when her name came up, we just kind of looked at each uh and he said well, I'm going to call her back, I'm going to record it, but- not sure that anything is going to come from it. But you know I'll just call I miss. You know something, but at that point we really didn't think I didn't think

that it was going to lead to anything for a number of reasons. Number one this are Alexander was pretty big guy and it seems out of what have a difficult time or carrying him into that someone. I had done this you wouldn't expect them to be calling the police, so we kind of agreed that that's. That was a follow that We had to make sure was completed, and but but again she made the call and in fact, on June tenth of two thousand and eight he actually got on the phone and they discussed of things- and he recorded it and that actually turned out something to be very important, because that was some I was able to use later where she indicated that during that time, Mister Alexander did not have a gun in his house. Certain. If he was going to defend himself, he would only use his fifth well to let the audience no that's and again there's so many people that follow this to the letter, but there was a twenty five caliber casing that was found right.

That would be awesome right. It would it was found just in front. The think, the vanity area where there was a large amount of blood, and it actually had landed I'm black. So it was clear that there already been blood on the on the tile and the casing fell there. That was part of, but the detective did not bring up the fact that there is it got involved, did not bring up the caliber when he that conversation with Jody areas. On June ten, all he asked was how's it going bring that sort of thing and just let her speak and she's the one that brought up the thing about the gun and then the detective well does he have a gun that sort of thing and that's when area said no he doesn't have any kind he if anything was going to if he was and it defend himself, he would use his fifth. So I think Who is that pretty astute of him to not

then indicate that there had been a gun involved and choose the I actually started talking about it now, of course, all these modern trials of the last few years are going to include all available evidence in look a lot of really fantastic evidences. Of course, text messages and emails and phone num, cell phone location. Bored. So what does? Jody areas do based on the police, able to gather Travis Alexander's digital correspondence Does she do in the next few days? Well, one of the things that police were able to pick up, which was actually again. It was something that when you look back, you wonder why she would do it, but she killed him on June. Fourth, sometime around after five hundred and thirty in the evening and after that, she drove on freeway up to

Utah, which she claimed was her ultimate destination. But sometime around midnight, she called his home or his cell phone and left a message saying you know, I'm sorry that I didn't get a chance to stop there. I know that you're going to be coming up to visit me up here. Indiana. Northern California. We can go into Oregon, so she he's a message clearly indicating that she's never been there sort of throw, I guess the police, trail not content with that she also sends Mister Alexander, a text message asking him if if he received a check that you had sent them. She had actually bought the car body car from him and was making payments, and so she sent him a text knowing that he was dead for asking him whether or not but he had received it in the last thing that you did. Is she sent him an email again in the

sorry that you couldn't show up, so she tried to cover her tracks using the what was it go out there electronically, and that actually is something again Take a look at it. It just goes into the planning, the lack of confused it was associated with this, and so in a sense, rather than help her out. Those are some of the things that actually may. It seemed that she had planned this a lot more than she wanted to admit, and that was not in this bond or did not have any memory issues like she claimed now. What is the progress with the digital with camera? What When do you find out which again give us a sort of a timeline of? When do you find out that there the results of what they can and can't do with that camera.

Well, they they actually were able to get them. The memory card memory stick whatever term you want to use and they what they were able to do is apply. A forensic tool to the camera to see if they could bring up any photographs and not just content with going to look at the photographs that were there. They actually went further into the memory card into something called unallocated space, which is where everything goes that gets deleted it. So they went looking for any item that were deleted and what people these were able to find or three sets of photographs. The first set, which was on June fourth of two thousand and eight was sometime around one hundred and thirty, and it shows the couple of two of them engaged and they in some sort. Sexual escapade outside, and that was part of what the The media's attention to the case, because there were some solution, photographs of him and her enjoying themselves.

Carnal sort of way. Then after that there was another set of photographs, the ones that Mr Alexander, posing in the shower obviously doesn't have the clothing on so, not like you have a gun on him, a knife or anything like that and Jodie Aereas is taking those photographs. But what really sets the ok so part in all of those were deleted, the ones those photographs that I've talked about all those were deleted. But what makes this case even probably more interesting more unique than all. The other cases is that there's what I'm labeling is that third set of photographs- and these were taken immediate within forty eight four within forty five seconds or proxy forty five seconds after the ones in the shower it it it. The first part of that you get is a photograph that is inadvertent or accidental of the lights above the shower. Clearly, that's about the time that that Ach is either has started or is taking place

and then a couple minutes or so later you actually see Jodie Aereas is foot in front of Travis Alexander's head and she goes to lift his right and you could see these already bleeding from pro says- she's already sliced his throat in what again? What makes this remarkable is that this was an inadvertent photograph. It is clear that what happened is she probably drop the camera or stepped on the camera, but more likely than not to drop the camera, causing it to strike the the the button to take the photographs which showed her for it then subsequently, as she's dragging the body back, there's another inadvertent photograph. So there's a total of three that shows her. They dragging him down this last one shows the baseboard says she's going along towards the um Tordsson,

where she got shot him in the head. So what really makes this case unique? Is that those three inadvertent photographs? It's it's it's just I ate something that I never seen before is something that I don't think. Most people will ever see that in the middle of a killing, inadvertent photographs are being taken as the events unfold. Now we have to talk about. The July ninth, you present your face to the Maricopa County, grand jury and you about a true bill. I hadn't really heard that term for the true bill. So maybe you can explain if that has any unique term. I just I had not heard of that true bill before and tell us about. Detective Flores is really, incredible the axis. Obviously you have, and so you relate the store and it's very vivid about the confrontation,

Miss Jody areas about this kind of evidence and her reaction, so when that happens in relation this July. Ninth grant. Jury that you present to them and so tell us about those two things so that I we know the timeline of when those things two things occurred. What the law permits is a presentation. To a grand jury and at that time the grand jurors are asked to make a decision as to whether or not they believe the person, that's the suspect and against and the person who is alleged to have committed certain acts, including the murder, whether or not that person is the person that did that and what they did with not it constituted. In this case, premeditated murder pictures are allowed to deliberate after the presentation of the evidence, I was the person who questioned detective Fourth and dumb

their deliberations are in secret and after that they make a decision. Whether or not the case will go forward and they take a vote and that boat signifies. If it's something that it's the case is going to go forward. Then the issue, what is called a true bill and true bill, is nothing more, an indication that they we have agreed that a charge is appropriate and in this case the charge that they indicate it was appropriate, was premeditated first degree murder within the week. Detective Flores went to why Rick a California, because that's where Jordy areas was living and he went there not to say hello, not to do anything like that he went to arrestor he he already at that point at an arrest warrant and I went there. He was able to find her They were able to take her into custody and, after taking in her into custody

15th of July, he began to question her and initially her story was that. Well, I wasn't at the Travis Alexander's house, wasn't there on the date that he was killed, so it really wasn't mean, even though they detect them already had the photograph showing that that wasn't true. After that initial day of conversations. The next day there was more discussion, and at that point areas changed. Her story is that you know gotta tell ya now I told you yesterday was not the truth and what actually happened was that, but they were while I was taking those photos in the shower him in the shower to it, will show up a man and a woman, and bring to them what they were. There was to kill Travis Alexander and she even went so far as this. Say that the gun was put to her head and that she was lucky to have escaped with a warning that if you never said anything while they were going to do damage or

her family, and that's why she hadn't said anything. So she had quite the story but- and it was all recorded, so she go back and say well, no, I didn't say what the police are claiming that I said so. She initially gave two stories on one: she wasn't there streets that and then said that it was actually two other people that had killed. Mr Alexander. And she repeated this same fanciful tale, two media, forty, eight hours and inside edition as well. He did. She was she had. She was, she was adamant and that that's what it, and so she he spoke to the news magazine forty eight hours on two separate occasions for for more than than a couple of hours, each time or approximate couple of hours each time and every time she repeated that. No, she had

nothing to do with it, she was actually the innocent bystander that it just happened to be there. When these two horrible people came in at all of this to Travis, she couldn't explain why they let her go and why they would allow her to leave. She had seen what it happened and she could explain why she didn't call the police one, I think that if you had seen your ex boyfriend murdered somebody that you've been intimate with that you would have at least called the police once I let you go, but of course, as you didn't do that, so it's not only did she continue with that store but that what that showed me is that she was some who relished being in the limelight, somebody who relished being attention and so that that told me that at that, that she would drop this these cities. Maybe that's all that's all that you would partake

That she would always want to be. The center of attention specifically take the witness stand. I took that to mean that she probably was going to take the witness stand and ultimately, that turned out to be the case. Yes, we should have to take the he was trying any kind of self defense or anything where she would have to. She would have to testify to those she could not not going to stand and try to relate those facts could quickly right because the evidentiary rules. Her statements are, any story that she gave she would have to give, because nobody else could give it for her, because that would be here saying, legal basis for it, but so she needed to go up there and explain to them what happened? I mean strength of that for her the thing. The reason that's beneficial for her is that Mister Alexander, Unfortunately, the other person that was there could not. Contradict what she was saying because of your dad remove the only other witness that was present so,

a certain way- and I knew that you was going to take the she of course problem. Well, she knew that Mister Alexander wouldn't be there to contradict it itself. So in a sense, that's a pretty good tactic. Now the police, you talked about premeditation and we won't get into like. We won't talk about that. Find definition of that, but suffice to say that if you to build a premeditated first degree. Murder charge there huh. To be some evidence of planning and that's what you're trying to ultimately build is a first degree murder conviction for this person, so on two evidentiary fronts will say the rent, a car and you and so there was a rental car. So we can tell us about that, but also after that, we can talk about what was found at a house a car. The car was parked in front of her parents place to rent a car. Then it was in vesti from there, but is also what you found in the home and we're talking about the infamous

shoe box with receipts right the first time about helpfully her seed with the rented car where the police determined or were able to find that that I should for her trip on June. Fourth, areas actually rented a car and she rented it from budget and what she did is rather than rent a car and there were two car rental agencies and where we can, where she left read rather than rent a car in eirika what she did is she drove, Ninety miles, to south to place called Redding California to the airport. It is clear that she did that so that she wouldn't she would run less of a risk of being recognized, because why back then, had a population of approximately seven thousand people. So it's a very small town and she went to the car chances are somebody would know that it was that that that she was hurt. I was renting a car, and so it would increase the chances of her getting

drop so she rented the car and reading and when asked about the car and she was given a red car, she told the person renting it while you I really don't want the red part of the reason I don't want. The red car is because that calls attention and and the list we notice it more. I want a white car and she was actually took the white cars so it would be less noticeable to the belief. Of course we did have those receipts and the police did find them. And this infamous shoebox that they found during the execution of the warrant at the place that she lived in Yreka. But what they didn't find was any receipts for gasoline here in the state of Arizona. They only found a number of receipts there for purchases or buys it made in California, specifically Pasadena, and then there were other receipts for items that she bought, for example, on her trip back from Utah. So there was this big gaping empty

whole where there were no receipts for that time. What I was able to find was that there was one receipt from Salinas ca. I was at that point already alerted or had already learned that she had tried or had actually called an ex boyfriend to borrow two gallon gas cans for her trip and I'm sort of fond of saying or because I remember I remember thinking well what why she asks. Why would she need gas cans, especially to five gallon ones, to travel? on the road there. I I know- and I don't live in California, but I'm positive- that they had gas stations there. So really that was kind of a bit of a red flag for me. But then, as I looked at the receipt, there was one from salinas- California Walmart it it. It did have The notation last item there's something about ACT, Carol, K, E r, o c a r b. When I call

Walmart. They told me that the well that's actually another five gallon gas can so then she the amount she has. Fifteen extra gallons of gas can If you multiply that out, let's say thirty miles, a gallon was very little more. That gives error these are four hundred and fifty extra miles. And if you add few, if you that by or add that to mileage that you already got for the tank of gas, which was which was approximately twelve point. Five gallons, you could see that she could make the trip from California from quarter California all the way to Arizona and make, play all the way up to up to Utah without having to stop for gas, because if you add that up you're looking at approximately maybe eight hundred miles but you could go. That was a range and there's approximately four hundred miles from California Lamesa and then another three hundred from Mesa to LAS

Vegas so you're, looking at seven hundred, so it's trip that she not only could make she actually did make with the aid of those three five gallon gas cans. Now, it's very important this discovery and we just skimmed over the very interesting way you did discover? This is because in your unrelenting sort of re view of the information and also you got gotta say little bit of luck, because she has a different lawyers and those first lawyers prepare for some documents and again you're sort of fanatic. In detail so you're going over things and racking your brain very much. This is very much movie ask in this in this part of the book where you're you're looking and you the end. This is a thing that stumped you. This is the big breakthrough. Is these gas cans and Of course, even when you see the information at Daryl, brewer Brewer said that Jody

Sirius had called a couple months before and said. I'd like to borrow these gas cans at wasn't evident to you at first, but you got to say that you were fortunate that, we even had that information in the first place. Weren't, you have absolute and I think that you know I will never turn my back on Unlock, because I think that that sometimes well a lot of the times, is what what? What what assist you in the case, but in order to take the advantage of that lock. You have to be prepared to do so, and I think that, as I said, yes, I do believe that I was a bit lucky. That I am because the line involving the gas cans and the Ex boyfriend Darryl Brewer was buried in the in and all these documents- and there was hundreds of pages- maybe thousands- I don't remember account right now, but I buried in there was two or three maybe four five winds. Se is sending that out. It was sort of like a throwaway kind of part of the

conversation because Mister Burr ask about our character and what kind of person. She was with her relationship with with his child and so when bad. That Interview for whatever reason he said well, you know I received a call for her from her let late asking there are two gas cans for a trip to Mesa AZ. That immediately told me that, This wasn't a trip where she was impulse after speaking, to Travis and decided to I'm not on the spur of the moment, go to Arizona that that told me that that she was it was planned in also told me that that that plan to kill him before she left Yreka.

Nobody would undertake such elaborate preparations. But I will admit that to having those items turned over to me by the fence by the defense, certainly provided that one of the keys to the prosecution, probably the primary key, I would not have been, I would not have thought to ask their operated. You call you to borrow some gaskets just when I thought about it. So yes, luckily for me that was there in time. Luckily, for me, I was able to take advantage of it. The other part, I think it's it's fortunate to is the character of all of these perfect. If she would have been very well, if you want I guess so arrogant and and confident that she might have done what most people would do, is get a good lawyer and keep your mouth shut and that would have '

a huge difference in this case, but despite that that didn't happen. But what I found was the most fascinating of this book is the the cunning and clever tactic that detective florist did in this as well, because you but to see his interview, shoes and you went over those interviews and those telephone every bit of information that he had gotten. You were reviewing it, which and so even though you weren't working together, there was a sort of a tandem cooperate in between you and in terms of you've, definitely benefited from the effort nation, like him, pushing her to tell the circuit throat that she tried to claim that she did and showed it to be. You know, basically in an imp possible incredulous route, but you also at that time we're learning in for trial. As you say what you were going to be facing at trial in the character of Judy areas where you

sure I had take a note during the interview with the interviews with check the force that she was very a skilled at her use of the english language in the sense that she was able to craft. Stories for lack of a better term that almost seem believable The way I try to describe it or in a way it seems to me, is that we all know that the sun rises in the east, and so, if not that this happened, but if I'm sure that if I would have asked her, isn't it true that the sun rises in the e she would have looked at me and said: well, I'm not too sure 'cause. I I have a room that has a w facing window and then good morning. When I wake up there, sunshine, I'm not really sure if it rises in the E. So I mean that showed me that this was the type of person that that was very skilled at that sort of turning. What is an obvious truth truth.

And then maybe spending it and then, conversely, taking one is not true and making it seem like the truth, so I knew that going in and and so and of course I was able to see that when she spoke to detect the floor so When, when it when it came down to it at the end there, I knew that this was sorry that I could not take lightly. This was somebody that I needed to perhaps be a bit firm, with her, because, if I wasn't, she would just tell her story, the way that you wanted, and so in fact I I adopted the strategy that I did to be I said extremely storm with her on the witness stand and asking her questions like. Is it a true, Whatever the question was sometimes, I would even say. Sorry, yes or no, because she wouldn't answer questions directly right

now you say normal in book normally that within two years, they're ready for trial. But just took four years and in that time, of course, there is still the ongoing investigation? You were talking to people like Daryl Brewer you're talking to everybody, you possibly can to get a sense of what her character is and what she might be people. There to do at trial, and also there is a element in that she changes. Lawyers and that's like we talked about how you got the document about Darryl Brewer. What is the re? and for the change in lawyers Ann as a result of the change in lawyers. What, if What do you notified about? And what do you see is coming down the pike? Well, she did. There were lawyers that assumed the case after the first set of lawyers. I'm not pray

eight to the reasons why she may have changed lower so lawyers or why they were other lawyers were substituted in. So I really can't speak to that, anything that I can say is that the that set of lawyers just close the number of documents or provided a number of documents to me. The second set of lawyers uhm took a little bit of a different tact and by different tact I mean they changed the error, but please, in other words they. They indicated that they had a different defense than the previous that and out they indicated that it was their view that they intend to present evidence to show that this was a case of self defense. What that meant to me immediately was that the two stories before that she had said before were not true the one about her, not being there any other one about the

two individuals with a man in the woman being there. What she was now saying was that that what she did, the killing, this stabbing slicing the throat and the shooting of the head. But that was all justified and that's the term. That's used and the reason it was justified according to her was that there was a history here then, there was a history of physical and verbal abuse, along with sexual views and then just sort of round out this idea that, under the circumstances he she was justified in killing him or that it was the right thing for legally and I mean it's like you can say that the defense can be even if you, if you cut it down to the bone, you can say well the person had it coming to him. They had a coming to him because of what they were doing at the time and in her case, what he was doing at the time.

Was that he was attacking her and based on everything that that happen. In the past, well her belief that he was I packing her in my kill. Her was reasonable. That's what she was saying, so he sort of had it coming to him, and not only did he saw I coming to him. He was an individual who was a pedophile, so with all of that, and we start at. I had to step back, take a look at everything else and and see what there was to contradict what she was saying. One of things that that I had to keep my back then, was that the investigation had been geared to identifying the person who had done all this when when when she said you know, I wasn't there or with somebody else we still or not, Yeah I mean the police were still in the process of identifying who did this well once she said this was in self defense, all of their investigations sort of went out the window, because now

it's just a new issue. The issue is yes, she was there, but what she justified in doing that, the stabbing the slicing in the in the shooting and that that's when I, of course, if you will have to have to sort of turn the focus of the best shouldn't. Look at other things, so that I could deal with it at trial Now it's fascinating to talk about how attorneys their attorneys and also you in the prosecution's office. Take advantage legally of certain things and. So tell our audience what you hold back, In terms of you explain if you were to ask detective flores- about something he would have to write up. A report of that conversation between you two so there is, little bit of a play here in terms of did you hold back something from detective floor? Is that you can

is a trial because you do not want to share with the defense, so tell us what that key issue is that is held back well police officers whenever they such a case, or they do something something they generally and I would say most of the time and if it's a minor thing, perhaps not, but they write a report. And in this case, if I had, for example, as detective floors to check on the receipt from Walmart and he started, making the calls that he would have had to write the report. That said, oh, I was calling around and I spoke to somebody at Walmart and they told me that this item was actually a gas can so red doesn't do that- I I was the one that actually did the calling, and I was the one that that took a look all the stuff, and I help that information from him. I part of it was that if come out there talking about who knows what may be set later on down the line by people, so that information was with me totally, and I made

decision not to let him know- and I remember when I asked Her- about the gas cans and our I Darryl Brewer about the gas cans. He took the stand before her uh, what I say when I sat down he kind of looked at me and said: oh, what the heck was that all about. I didn't know that about these caskets and I told him no, of course you didn't. And the reason was that I just they and so I couldn't turn use it, and so I didn't have an obligation to let them know what I was thinking, and so I did not take my hand too. The information that I was using. So it's not what I was any games that were being played, I think it was just my strategy with regard to the case. I remember that not even an opening statement. They were maintaining that had her Trip to Mesa was spur of the moment when I uh. That I knew that that that could be true. That couldn't be the case, because there were these three gas cans. That indicated that she had actually planned it and that again I

we waited till the very end to ask her about the third gas can- and I remember asking her what is it this? So you claim that you took the third gas came back to Walmart, and why is it that you were using it to fill up that you fill it up with gas in SALT Lake City? I vividly remember that that he she didn't, have an answer, but she responded She did, as she always used, seem to do and she responded and said. Well, I was never in SALT Lake City, so of course I could prove that she was there because of all the receipt, but but I mean that was a strategy involved with with the gas cans, and so if the jury sees that, hopefully they're, swayed that this person is not somebody that is incredible. Now just before the trial. Just to an again. This is something that I guess, people that might have followed the trial and did not read your book would not know. But we talk about you talk about the Bob

white letters that were deemed inadmissible, but not for lack of trying so, tell us about this fascinating part before we again just talk about the trial so about a the bobwhite letters where they came from and how? They were investigated away at at around the time that that are immediately before the eight to send. It indicated that she was changing her defense to the south of France. It appears that that some copies of some letters, expensively or beautifully, or allegedly written by Travis Alexander were emailed to defense counsel and they in turn notice them to me, Provide me provided me the the email, Okay at bay in these letters there's, of course, were ostensibly written by Mister Alexander. After look

the letters and a number of things in those letters, I came to the the conclusion. Obviously, I'm not an expert, but just based on what I know about the case and based on what I had seen that they were actually not written by Mister AL exam and so one of the things that I did is that I actually made a request of the cordon. It called emotion that these letters b, food it because they were forged or fraudulent, and one of the things that I did to try to advance. My position was to put into jail to see if there were any writings from Jody areas so that I could see what a writing was like in one of some of the items that had been confiscated from her wears a three by five, they had some writing on it. And that writing was almost exactly alike. The writing that was in the letter so immediately. It seemed sorta,

again uh. Instead, I have the bell ring in my head saying: something's not right here. I then uh obtained original letters written by Mister Alexander, and I had a handwriting analysis done and the person who do The handwriting analysis, his opinion he's a document at examiner names, quite kridl he's with the Arizona Department of Public Safety, but- opinion was that more like we will not those letters were forged. And not only were those letters forged that three by five card that I had that have been seized or take from Joey areas. Whoever had written that three by five card was actually trying to emulate or simulate mister alexanders, writing and that that was the person who probably wrote that letter. So I was able to show Do this, what we call circumstantial evidence, but really the circumstances that she

actually probably with the person that they were forged in that she was probably the person who forged them. Adding to this, while I was again at the jail standing there, at one time- and I noticed that there was a she had a visitor, and then she attempted to give a couple of magazines to this visitor. And in those magazines, Clea people to jail, were able to find that she had written messages on various pages sort of a crypt at, and the message was which we don't know about. I don't know who that these messages were too, but they were right before the hearing involving the letters it. It say something you must, and obviously it was a much harsher word for messed up. You messed up when you spoke to my lawyers, something like that. You need to come and see me so that we can get your story so that it corroborates what I've been saying for the last year or so so,

given all of that that what ended up happening is that the that was presented, the letters were withdrawn and they never saw the light of day now, just before we go to the trial and again, This is a trial that captivated Amera Scott an the world, basically, there was so much attention to this it. Something resonated in people, and they were following this very much. Maybe quite like the Oj Simpson case, but there hasn't been a case since OJ that seemed to attract this much attention this one person involved. Now. You cite the case of, and the spend on these important. We won't get into any kind of debate even remotely, but you do talk about. Joseph Andreano, and you cite this exam. Sample of how you justify pursuing this death penalty case

because you use the example of Joseph Andriano and And the provisions that there must be an infliction of physical or mental anguish, she should, No work should have known that he would have stopped so tell us Hi Jody areas qualifies as compared to jail, Andriana. Tell us how you why you them and how you just apply. The Jodi Arias deserves the death penalty that you pursued well, both of the cases that are bad that you just cited the various case and the lending Andrea location, I'll talk about that one first. In that case the killing was especially cruel and what that factor speaks who is the physical and emotional suffering of the person who's being killed prior to death, for they have,

be conscious in the in the one d Andriana case. Part of the reason I pointed out is because it involved a woman and a woman, and there was also a it's of overkill with that one. She he was dying of cancer and was already going to die, but that was it enough for her, so she went on the internet and under the name of an Newton purchased some chemical that is used in propellant for airbags, so he made it. Gave it to him and of course he didn't die quick enough. He was vomiting, but he didn't die. Quick enough, so what she did actually after that is that she beat him over the head and he would have died from that. And then, after that, she what is that? So I I decided it because it's it's it had some of the same elements in she was the first person sentenced to death by a jury.

I didn't do it to say that the jury was wrong or anything like that. I just show that that case is that and I do not make the decision as to whether or not a case that definitely is going to be sought that is made by the county attorney. That is the political person and- and so I I had nothing to do with that- it, and that was his decision and his decision, so it and so of course, not every case that goes to trial, there's a conviction, and so just because of the state. I believe that that that is appropriate. That's not that's not how it works, and that in this case the jury decided at least on the second phase, that down by a vote of eleven to one in favor the. Definitely it has to be unanimous here in Arizona that that would not be. That would not be the case because it was not a unanimous verdict and for me I mean I accept what the jury has to say. Uh I understand, that's how the system works, and

I don't even really after the verdict comes in. I do not waste my time. Worrying why they did it, why they didn't do it. I don't speak to the jurors and say well what cause you not to vote, for it will cost you to vote for it. That's their decision and You know, I believe that they're there deliberations are sacred and they should be protected. So in this for the case, once I the decision rate that it was going to be in a sense, a hung, jury and that that that would mean the imposition of life. I just moved on. Now we talk about your preparation, talk about in the book, the incredible preparation you had for this and when the defense, her defense, changed her strategy again, a lot of the investigative information they gained through the investigation was really not so you because they they have to counter what

Defense was saying and and the strategy that they were using to try to defend her from these. These charges, so you had this for you. To prepare you, you review those interviews, you listen to the phone calls. You know Jody areas as well as anybody possibly could. What was your strategy in terms of how you would we touch on it, but how you would try to get. Rattle her on on the stand, she was the star witness, so she was the most important witness. What was your strategy, and what was your approach before you went. What trial. I knew that she was because she needed to take the witness stand in order for her claim to be seriously considered by Jerry. So going in having reviewed all the items that you've mentioned, I knew that the tip approach where I would stand there with Lee go pat in hand

left hand, and maybe a pen on the right and having all these questions written down would not be productive. It just wouldn't because that's not, the type of our conversation that would be conducive to anything other than having her repeat. I wish you had said before, because it would be a bit too slow the other thing was that I had already already knew that unless she was pushed she would would keep Do that position, and so I decided to be strident. I decided that I'm can I use notes, I didn't use notes I questioning her and I was going to at every turn, have something sure or proving up what I was asking so for you, when I started out asking about I remember the first day asking about what I wanted really going to was that she claimed that that

Alexander had damaged her left pinky when he had physically abused her. I had a photograph and she- I had a photograph subsequent to that that showed her pinky was straight. And that. The only way that it could happen was when she had I think so. I didn't just go chronologically and say: look let's start with day. One then go today, two and a three. If I had done that again, she would have been able to follow it. It would have been very prepared. I decided to jump around from subject to subject so that so that she and they have as much time to prepare or think of the answers, and I remember starting the first day by asking her because there was there was a telephone call that she had recorded surreptitiously and that where she and Mr Alexander were heard- involved in some sort of masturbatory activity and in that phone after so of the embers of our,

cooling off. She said something about her dumb sister and I remember well. I want to ask her about that, not because I just want to embarrass or anything like that, but because she chided Mister Alexander for being critical of the family. Her family and yet she could do it. So it was a way for me So there was a double standard and then segue into the the to the thing involving the left. Little finger so started out asking read that she didn't expect that and if I asked her in an out fashion, one of the things that she even did, she admitted well yeah yeah. I think my sis, you're stupid and my sisters dumb, but then she also added that she, stupid. So the approach was sort of not the in my hand in my questioning and to be strident, and if that called me to say yes or no? I want to know what the answer. This question is when the Soviet and choose even much? She was up to the challenge.

Why is she she, for example. If she had a question that she didn't know the answer too. She would ask me to repeat it or or she would say that she didn't remember or that she had memory problems and then I use the word problems you wanted to use the word issues so and then even resorted to say well you're, just like Mister Alexander you're, trying to scramble my brain because you're raising your voice, so I mean she was, she was very adept. I don't know I'm not going to say prepared, but I'm just going to say that she was very adept when she was on the witness stand in that. My way of dealing with it was to be very assertive with her. Now we didn't touch on this, but important part of this trial is this again. What the salacious nature and- and what I didn't know of, is that Mesa has a big, community, a strong community of Mormons and the the latter day, saints and the Mormon religion are important. This, in terms of I guess,

the community it's in Mesa, but also the tactic. Jody areas used and her defense to try to. Of course, I have to try to make Travis Alexander seem like a violent person, so tell us. Again not to dwell on it, but how important this salacious nature and the sex and the forbidden religion kind of thing played in this. Well, it's true that Mister Al Exam there was a LDS or or Mormon, but one of the things that I attempted to show was that and that shouldn't get lost in this was the Jodi Arias was also LDS. So any of these, since as she wanted to portray him. Somebody was a center applied to her as well, because it five he was involved in this. Well, so was she? So that's. That's the first point to be

There was a prohibition or there is a prohibition, pretty strong probation in the alley. Yes, wait. That says that premarital sex is to be We discourage you just shouldn't, do it and so it her. Bringing that up pointed it out. Not only was she saying, is he sexually abusive to me, but he somebody that should be looked down upon because look at the type of character that he has not a He presents himself a certain way during most of the time when you is the church. That sort of thing is somebody who is a very good Mormon, but then he turns around and does these things, which she forgot of course that she was doing the same thing and she's supposed to be a good mormon girl. Additionally, just because somebody engages in sexual activity, whether they are lds or not, does not mean that that they should pay for the sense. Because those were sort of what they are? They should pay for the by having

grim. Reaper grim reaper in the in the former Jody areas strike I'm down by stabbing. Even the heart. Then you don't slicing throat and then shooting him, that's not the way the church sees it, and maybe I try to portray him as an individual that perhaps again was a center and some he who deserve to, I guess a little bit of punishment and maybe try to confuse the issues. So that's how she tried to use religion. I thought you've probably been asked this many times and I'm I'm it's not it's not a rhetorical question, but it might be an unanswerable question in terms of conclusions. Why do you think the this case captivated the american audience. American America. So much I mean part of it. Was your you know vigorous approach to questioning her. I don't think

everybody has seen that it has experience that, but still to get that kind of attention from the public and from the media. There must have been something to her character, not just your character, attacking her. Was it about Jody areas that captivated America well in And speaking to people and I've received letters and calls that sort of thing it's seems that the general feeling is that this is one of the cases where justice or good, if you will triumphs over evil if, if you mentioned this earlier, there's this case of Oj Simpson, the majority of people believe that he's guilty, but he was acquitted. I we also have the Zimmerman case out in Florida and some people there believe that he's also guilty and even the core

it in, and you know, there's a poster child involving alleged child abuse and she was not convicted either Casey Anthony. So what made this case, I think different and I think what captured the? As you say, the attention- and maybe the imagination of people in this can David perhaps internationally- is that in this case there was somebody who was standing up for justice, maybe I was- and I was standing up in in a sense in a way that I was not shy about it. And it and- and I guess in a way it's been made, these people feel good. I I know that I received calls for people who said that that, for example, the situation where there my There was suffering from terminal cancer, now one of the things that when she was feeling the worst, and maybe the medication wasn't doing

the best that it could one of the ways that this woman who is suffering with cancer, one of the ways that she would feel better is to watch this trial because it was able to sort of draw her in and make her for and and the drummer am because it was a struggle between this right versus wrong and right seem to be winning, and so I think that's part of it and then the other part, of course, was the salacious nahs I mean we heard in very intimate my new detail, everything you could possibly hear about two individuals who are in the in sexual activities- I mean it sexual clinic, a worthy of masters and Johnson. Yes,. In your estimation, and of course you you detail in the book, It's not just a little.

And not just a little the like I'm asking, because it's more complicated that but the dumb it down a little bit. What did you, deal- was the most crucial point in the crossword domination of Jody areas. That was a breakthrough um but I was able to show that she was somebody who is not kredible, someone who would not. Stop, and it would be able to and thanks to the jury, and when I was able to show that that she had that third, gas, and even though she had claimed she had returned to Walmart according to her Walmart Weather, Walmart, and give her fifty receipts, because you know the rules didn't, the Jody areas at Walmart. Apparently and she had returned it for for for refund. Able to show that what she was saying,

absolute Andrew. No one could bat that she had actually had that. Third gas can never return it to Walmart and at that point, pretty much anything that she said. There was doubt cast on just about everything that she said so when she then claimed, or everything that she had claimed about Mister Alexander well, then about whether or not even attacked her. That was also called into doubt, and I think that that was the point that probably the jury sees Donna again. I didn't speak to them, but it seems to me that the way. I saw it at that at that point, every can you shadow of a doubt that areas could not be trusted die? not everybody after prosecuting a case, especially

they're, not retired, and you explain this and I guess I guess I'll get you to explain this. Why did you feel it was important to write the book and most people wait till the retired so tell us. Why did wait till you retired- and why did you feel it was important to write this book every every case? I guess you too, are you, say: there's some value or some teaching value to it. And I I believe that in seeing what what I see out the media and other things that Everybody watches tv, and I know everybody realizes that its contents and all that, but it was just way to sort of I don't know, educate the public a little about what actually happens in the trial. What actually goes into it, because that's what makes it interesting and so that so that

they can know what is going on in the idea that it's open to the public is also, I think it's So a good idea, so those things were were part of the reason that I wrote the book. I do think it's educational I ate when we talk about direct examination, cross examination and re direct and you'll. How juries can ask questions in Arizona that sort of thing and and the rules allowing daughter, app allow so so there's that component and I just thought that my thoughts were good story, and in this fight for justice they could see what what was going what exactly it was that that you is to arm myself to bring this case to a conclusion, to a conviction, and that's why I chose the title The reason I did retire is that I'm not ready, there's nothing. That says that I can't write about something that that has happened. I don't handle the case anymore- that's with the office of the attorney general. I don't have anything to do with the case, so there-

didn't seem to me to be any reason to wait. Why wait five hundred and ten years after retire, I made every tire I made them twenty years of work there. So there really isn't anything magical about it. I followed the rules information before I wrote it. I made sure that I abided by the rules and so it just seemed that it was the right time to do it. Retiring. Well again, as I said that I don't see that as a about lying that that that that would indicate that a book should or should be written. I know that other prosecutors have retired and done it, but maybe have little different. That way, I just don't want to leave the job. That's great, absolutely now. Before I let you go. I wanted to ask this question where what has been reaction. I know the public has has been mad over this book you, rave reviews, I'm sure of the sales, have been incredible

and in the interest in this I mean you can find out so much information. So many videos online. Well, what has been the reaction- from your colleagues, which is probably most important to you? I I have to admit that you know it's. It's not something that I like to discuss with with people that I work with, so I I don't, not something that the a topic of conversation at work when I'm at work, I'm there to deal with the cases that are there and- and so I can't play what the reaction is, the people that that I work with, because I don't disk if that's something that separate and apart in and I I really do not bring it into work, with me, if you will the idea that I wrote a book but say I do know that that people in my no know that I wrote it and I mean I've- heard comments. Perhaps in the elevator

Something like that where people have said that they've enjoyed it, so beyond that. There really isn't too much discussion about it. With with my colleagues. Yeah, it's very interesting how you basically have stated: I mean just stayed in the book as well. This is seven years of your life from the beginning to the end and you have an ability to put that away and continue with your life, your private life and and this is just another chapter and your continuing with the work that you enjoy and that you love and and Sir The community that you are a big part of an wanted, then so and you know I want to was like sure in the case of like a relationship, it was not a good relationship with a badly but like all relationship, it's you're happy when they're done, because they are bad relationship, but you miss it.

And of course I think about it and- and I think about it, but but but but it's done and I've moved on. Yeah, I I got it the menu on this book. It is a brilliant, a brilliant book and especially interesting for people like myself, and I think the our audience, the savvy audience. I have to we'll find the unique aspects of this book coming from a prosecutor in this incredibly high profile case and every single detail and again fantastically written, on your end. You see, even though you know the outcome of the case, you can't get a better testament for those that might want to of course, they know where to buy the book, Amazon and, but also is there. There is a facebook, age of fan page. So it could. You tell us how people might want to communicate

dates or comment or find out more about the community itself. That's involved with this book. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Well, I know that the book is available at Amazon and at Barnes and noble I I do know that there are a couple of ways to communicate with me. Of course, Harper Collins of five people contact them. Of course the messages will get to me- one thing I must say I don't have Facebook ari- I'm not really. Somebody who I don't how to say it. I didn't say that I just don't have a I don't have a computer, so there's no way to communicate with me that way. Obviously I do have a workplace People want to call me there. I mean. I I will return the calls, probably or but not during work hours, because again I devote my time to work when I'm there but then the best way to get ahold of me is through Harper Collins out of New York and any any calls or any messages. There are always forwarded,

any enquiries by people are always sent to me and I respond to the mall. That's great Thank you very much one for coming on talking about your incredible book, conviction the untold story of putting Jody areas behind bars. It's been fascinating and thank you for taking the time to come, and share. This incredible story with our audience. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me on take care. You have a great night good night.

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