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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening. This deacon family man, pillar of his Florida community and serial killer of prostitutes, chill true crime. From the author of lobster boy, my day, SAM

Smithers, was the deacon of his Baptist Church in plant city. Fl are respected, neighbor to many and a devoted husband and father. But after the sunset he became something else. A violent attacker and killer of prostitutes. Another is twisted. Double life came to light when a local woman who had hired him to take care of her property found in the garage cleaning, an axe and then discovered a puddle of blood through Exclusive interviews with Smithers wife, who described as both spouses, nothing but doting husband and father author Fred, Rosen learned why this and God raised in an inch Hensley Religious Tennessee home, was a last person. Anyone would suspect of committing these savage crimes. Rosen reveals the details behind the deaths of Chrissy Cowan and Denise Roche after Smithers picked come up in Tampa and the fate of a man who seemed holier than thou, but was

actually guilty as sin. The book tour featuring this evening is Deacon of Death SAM Smith the serial killer next door, with my special yes journalist and author Fred rose and welcome back to the program, and thank you very watch for green this interview, the incomparable Fred Rosen. Already the hey wait, a minute. Only Captain America or the mighty store Frank operable, you know no, I I appreciate that then, and I love being with you Bih cause you're the best and spread your the best. Well, thank you, but you know I gotta tell you this book. I spent a lot of time. Rereading it wow yeah yeah I was laughing. I was going.

That's a good line. You know because I wrote it awhile back, but watch so interesting to me. It's held this guy's speech with women is typical of what today we. Call the me too movement. Where a guy is harassing women, but but- and here it's only- you know it's one. Twenty years ago it wasn't considered a big deal so. You know, I think we've come up there right away. You know, which is a great thing. Obviously you know anyway, yeah tell us spread because yes, Sir, for people that are fans of lobster boy and we've talked about, lobster boy in the program among about twelve or fifteen other books, or at least twelve other books that you have, but one of the more fast

eating, obviously because of lobster boy with the low actual lobster claws born to and and in the in this book, Gibsonton Florida again at least you open in Gibson in Florida, and you explain what that is, and the relation to lobster boy who watches Grady. Third, you know so tell us about the lobster boy connection and what you were doing in Gibson Gibson ten Florida at that time. Well, here's what happened! I put all this together. It took about for you okay in nineteen. Ninety four, I was in Florida in Gibson City, which is the home of the Carney Offseason, and that's where I was investigate

I think the murder of lobster boy who'd been a carny freak and with killed in a murder for hire scheme by his Ex wife and her son, and I had gotten involved in the case and came up with the evidence, but let the conviction at the killer two of the killers anyway, that It is that, four years later, I was told talking to a woman that Bilibin, who is the public information officer at the same police Department, Hillsborough County, four years three years on your what, but anyway I was at hey, you got any other interesting cases. Next thing she knows, she's telling me about SAM Smithers, and I want. I don't believe this. I just don't believe this. You know. A church, Deacon who's, a serial killer. We didn't have that back in Brooklyn Dan,

It was just really weird, and I said I really gotta get into it and as I did, what why I really got into this was the first. Yeah, this is the first time that was doing a book about a serial killer. Very lucky, you know, will just lucky the the serial killer, SAM Smithers, that was his name, that bad guy cereal. Where his wife was willing to talk to me expensively, oh boy, and that really yay

It really gave me an understanding about how these people are your site. These are formed it. This is not something that just happens. You know I mean it's not out of the blue and, quite frankly, I don't believe it's just a question of. DNA. I combination, but especially background sure now with that incredible access, but Take us early in the book to November second, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three and then, found a woman with ligature marks around her neck beaten about the head. They can, but it probably a strongman strangler where with the belt, but they put the prints through the system no match later on the news in college, called her niece Rosalyn cruise. So you talk about this Larry Lingo

tell us what tell us a little bit about Roslyn and and what they found out quickly about her background yeah well, the bottom line is that right. I forgot you were pulling the end, but I I still got that what happened was for years. You have to do in those interviews in Gibson to. I realized that on the day that I finished the interview with family of Grady, Stiles Junior, who is lobster boy in Gibson, said I was driving back on the main drag on which the body was found shortly after that starts the story and that's, and eventually it's identified as Roslyn. Cruise was a.

A man who was working as a prostitute and I actually drove by the body without realizing It was night, you Know- and you know, but I was able to pinpoint- and on the basis of the time frame, that the police establish and what I knew you know when when I had interviewed these individuals in in the end gifts and- and so so I I knew the area you know and do the real. Well and also I I knew that Please realize that those with those things will help. It's interesting to you talk about initially with the investigation and a detective lingo, very colorful, Larry Legal, fifty two years old, Abel did that initially there was different suspects with the cruise case, Pat and Linda Ryan, so as many cases

Do we find out in these books that that's what happens, then? The police have to follow those logical lines. Those logical leads. So what is what Does it? What does? How do they proceed with this case? Well, you. You speak in this particular case and that lingo was with the same police department that subsequently investigated the death of these two of the chew app, absolutely known victims,

one hundred and ten percent of SAM Smithers, and so he was able to eventually put it together. Even though the dna was one hundred percent, they had. You know that they had my oak Andriel DNA, but it was really enough to take proof. There was a patch, so they already got him at three hundred and then there was one and the Florida Panhandle, as I recall that also they suspected he he he had committed when he lift up there, you know I don't we'll, never know exactly how many people this particular. This is one of those cases. I don't think it will ever know exactly how many people is individual murder. You know what I mean it, it's it's, but it's all very, very sad and that's what gets to me.

More than anything Dan, but the the individuals that were murdered. Let you know, but it just bothers me and then the wife and son, oh my god. I've never ever had a situation where to walk to. Oh, you know there was a son of a serial killer. Excuse me, you know that doesn't usually happen in real life. Maybe an investigation discovery. You know, but you know not for me. Let's before we go into his life and then course, the incredible access and information you gain from talking to his wife Sharon and the sun. Let's talk about how we got to be, be deacon of a church and his background before that living with his father, Alvin and his mother Linney, what was the again we, we don't get to see this in the book

so much later, when his brother test yet later and will want to jump ahead. Tell us about his early life in this house. He grew up in Chattanooga, suburban Chattanooga, the chance to since and he he was a. He grew up in a very in church, going family

Right and the thing is, we can bottom line it, which is Sharon. His wife told me that he was physically and and his tennis siblings, with physically abused by his mother. So let's start with that, you know I mean when I talking about he's going around, go rats and things like that. You know, like you know, you see with certain profiles. Serial killers know what's happening here. Is he's getting abuse physically by the mother. It's also possible to may have been some sort of you know other abuse, but in any case um uh I mean there's no evidence of that, but anything is possible, but the bottom line here is this:.

She went to church regular basis and he was very active in the church. That's where sexual, but also had so many problems from what was going on in his life that he event we became uh I don't know, I guess you'd call it a fire bug where he said fires that would he would that he would set the fire and then be the guy that put it out and therefore he was a big hero to happen in the right column. Can I eat and while there was what it some long therapy involved after that occured very interesting? We just did,

a program with Frank, Gerardo, an his book burned and it was almost the same thing volunteer fireman person involved as a firefighter start. The fires then getting that congratulations for being the genius that put out the fire in this case she say they finally gets caught by this inspector Hayes after his a woman's cars on fiery bangs on the door. Oh, my god, your cars on fire so finally, even though you say he's probably got guide aided by the community in terms of lean and see finally he's arrested for that and, of course, not given much for this arson, not take it seriously bottom line. Is he he he? He. May he, like, oh man, basically set fires at his church. Peep,

could have really really been hurt, and it was just luck that it didn't workout. That way, you know what I mean: um we're just luck, bad. They were able to pull that out and, and- and you know nobody was hurt- There was also signs again you referenced the me too movement in in so maybe we should talk about that. There was some events that would be. Disturbing today and at that time were treated differently. What are the kinds of things that some of the people that volunteer for community service at this first Baptist church reported to the authorities? Yes, yes, what happened was he was the. He was

your record, the audience yeah Cody in a Baptist church. And what happened was that grass included. Working with women, who is sir in community service and. It's like the last thing in the world could be. Thinking of. I mean prior to the me too movement, certainly, and what happens is Women come forward and they say: ok, he he came on for me couple of times they say put hands on them physically sexual way and the church then have to you know

make a decision about what it's gonna do about. That, by the way, against the guys, Dick and we're not talking about you know where you are ever and do anything you know, but you know it's funny Dan. You know. Whenever I do want your you know, I I I'm lucky enough to be interviewed by you. I got to go back and read the whole book because, if I don't do that. I don't know what the hell I did yeah. You know, and you know when I look at this thing. You know how many, what

work. I don't blame. You know what your old record I'm reading about last known, address: okay, right now, all right: okay, nine! Now I'm not saying thanks situation, obviously, but here's the God coming parts for women in exactly the way that some of these individuals have there have been indicted. The cereal you're, not saying that Harvey want serial killers, something let this stuff slide for so long be cause. Women were second

that could offensively in the United States. I always tend to believe that the planet is further further along than I well the citizens are so the thing is, is that You still have the same sort of mentality everywhere I mean it's, it's a universal mentality that now is coming to light. It's been a radical shift with wide you know when Crosby, and so you know you have the situation now, but back in this in this case in this story. What it really indicates is that people were willing, to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he was a deacon, because he was a family man and that and that helped him like you say and a hold him to be able to continue with. We started with arson and and he had the sexual harassment. Then

add embolden him to believe he could get away with a lot of other crimes and then that's why he was even though it seems like a little bit organized. He was sloppy when it counted so lucky yeah, yeah yeah, but you know Is your sangle this? What gets to me is that. No, no, no, nothing, but it seems to me since we have a path and again this is you know, it's not true crime percent. It looks to me, but maybe it is that you've got a pattern of people enabling the guy what happens at the end of the day too,

two individuals are murdered and of course you know when those individuals happened to be prostitutes, their their lives, and I considered to be the same bye. A lot. Ok but that's uh live first person. The first person that disregarded them know SAM Smithers, so the thing is and then from there from there we don't care as much, but the first person was able to do that was this. You know interesting. Your book is that you go back and you talk to his wife, but you. Story this guy is, and I mean lots of other women, they have been married to serial killers. Associate with serial killer said he was really great in relationship again. This one is even more detailed in that wasn't violent. When he got angry, he went for a walk, he went outside

he. Never he never spoken crude language. His say x was normal, even though he was frequenting prostitutes, see all he's made it home for supper and he was a good father. Ah exaggeration. That's will is together from what I wrote in I'm sitting here and I'm thinking. What is the royal Canadian mounted. Please Hardin's eclipse open trouble. You know you, you put it all together seriously, It's amazing I mean it is just you know younger is verse. We do a lot of interviews. He talked a lot of writers, certainly a lot more than me, so I'm not adverse

that you are on. You know some of this stuff. I have to say that this guy um, we know in the sun yeah, I'm a baseball fan found out this son. Was I just look this up. I wrote a note to tell Dan this. I wrote a note you ready for this. His son, arrested by the Boston Red Sox, write an in um nineteen ninety- and I'm I'm looking through the list you know- and he didn't go with him, because he wanted to go to college and all that stuff, but I'm looking through the other names who else is drafted that year mark to Shera who wound up with the New York Yankees.

Well and I'm going- ok glad In other words, in american criminal history, where the son of a serial killer is drafted by up the Boston Red Sox and we have our good friend Garfield. That yeah. But but but you know it, but I guess what got me is when I talk to Sharon, she humanized everything for me, that's why I was so lucky not. This is a book about a guy who was a serial killer, but here's? A human did not work if you like that sitting on death row, but he still in the game. We gotta tell people to that. Sharon has a even more

unusual and extraordinary role in this store in this case, because. Later, when he is questioned even in the arson, he he things that she is in the room and when they do get. The arson, which is voting a what happens later, his denials turn into a full blown confession with sherron at his side. Isn't it true? Isn't that fascinating I've never seen up by the way? cops, were very specific with me, because again, these are the Hillsborough County detectives who work lobster boy for my money, it's one of the best police departments may be the best that I've ever worked with detective to fishers right uh. So they get. They gave me full access to every I have this, you know unbelievable, and they explain to me that, based

Really what was happening here was that Sharon don't rather SAM when they got SAM at the custody he wanted share in there and, as it turns out when he was charged with arson, you know fifteen twenty years earlier, whatever it was same, thing happened. Sharon and. The other thing that was really cool about this case was that it was help to show it was a female detect. That's not that's, not common! Ok! Let me just say this.

Ok, I realize that we, you know we all watch tv and all this stuff, but I gotta tell you guys that it is a very common to have a lead investigator, any cases woman. In my experience. Ok, it's changing, of course, but in this case it was woman in garthie flair. Who was so freaking good? And the other day and the other detectives on the case was MIKE, will let, with salt water, what yeah your available? Yeah all laugh, but you know Like a small world, Well, I I you know, is it very often you can't do one book in now fiction where you're writing about the same all you know yeah absolutely well the same. The thing is the same county too, and we should get to this story that really broke this whole thing,

that really was again is very, very movie ask, and we talked about him, being a caretaker at this at his church, these Ridge Baptist church. But the thing is, it doesn't pay all of the bills, so he needs another type of job and through his history he's been hustling and you know just the nature of the economy. He had jobs and they lost jobs and and the any change, but he was work for a woman named Beth Modine who had a property and he was a caretaker. So we tell us about the story. Where he's a care Therefore, here and he has all these duties, he has a garage or some tools uh Do what you want to get this particular listed on this? You are gonna, get the number one on this question then just get to justify ' for us, because we're we're skipping over some of it, but get to what she sees before. What

later is realized, because he sees that something and then realizes something- and here he got here- she react here's. What happens? Here's what happens as we discussed prior to any come known. Homicides! Others is already sort of a suspect kind of individual because of the way he's been acting toward when, but only certain people know about all right well make ends meet. It's got a job as a private care taker for property out in. The country and- and I went out there to look at it while I was ready for 'cause. You know you got it when you. You know that,

you know all the readers that are listening tonight and listeners. You guys expect me to do this stuff. Of course, I'm gonna do it. You know, and so I go out- and I take a look in this- that the other thing and then I put together with you know what you know, what actually happens? Oh and I almost forgot it- damn it used to be a tv series. Columbo is Columbia. You always say I forgot one thing. Oh boy, the cop said in the report see. I got old documentation yeah. This was a period of time where I so you can still do it in Florida. It's one of the few places, don't give you everything and they gave me the documentation about this place, Hillsborough avenue what I know you know, I'm from Brooklyn show when I was down there investigating. You know said that.

Well, there's all these prostitutes and I wrote down that Ave when I went. Oh, my god, I've never Steven in New York, find me what 42nd street used to look like? You know, okay and he was quite interesting, because it gave me a feeling for what I was writing about, which of course is the most important thing. You know, and and and for the individuals I was right. Did I get too far off track. So we we were talking about best mode, gene discovery, SAM Smithers, at her home, which is not unusual, but she does cease

some things that are very unusual, especially in retrospect right. Let me talk about that. What happens is send I'll. Let you talk about it from best POV, that's better yeah, that's goes up 'cause, it's a property. You know when she's, you know same happens to be there he's not there older pie, but he's there. She goes into. Life is sort of like a barn kind of structure her and she sees some blood on the walls and then there on the floor and she figures that it's. Should be an animal or something, but she doesn't like she's getting bad bikes. Oh and there's one more thing, which is there's a trail: oh man, you can't write this stuff, it

I mean you can't make this stuff up rather visit trail like potato chips or Doritos, something leading outside with well text real life. You know she looks at him and she got at SAM's mothers and she says, I better get take out here and she does. She leaves she goes down too if the highway and that she from there she calls please and eventually spawned and they go back to the place and they find some interesting things. There is a pond. Behind the home behind this home and they have. You say that it looks like drag marks like a drag path. They call it to to this pond.

Yes when Mick Glory comes, and they look at this on what are the what are they well then, when respond sumo deans, you know: request trail By the way, that's the first time, I've ever heard that term. I don't know about you, but I never heard to trail jump like something from an old western. You know with Jimmy Stewart, but anyway you watched me, student westerns. Ok, anyway, try Winchester seventy three, but anyway here's what happens. Caught the cop follows the drag trail over. You know with her whip it ships boy,

channel man to this time. This is smoke on guys. You know it's like you know, it's it's a small pond. What's in it, they find the body they find. The body is newly dead. And then they continue to look in the pond and they bring in the dive, which I gotta kick it up. I I said copy that give me a couple of wines book right and so they bring in the dog. Can they find the body at the other end,

and now they got it. Take a look at these. Two bodies see what the heck is going on. Now they look at the fine two bodies, obviously once more decomposed course go through prints for match. Why do come about the go ahead? Go ahead! I'm sorry! I'm sorry, I'm sorry keep going, keep going, they go, they go for prince, keep going so eventually get in the identification of what they're calling Jane DOE number two, the first person in the water. Yes- and what has it's interesting? This is this sure I find out that stuff. The this is actually the case where I started understand

I think, oh boy, I'm gonna stout sound. Like I'm scientist, I don't need to five body how long it takes the conditions and so forth, and so on, because these people the These people in Hillsborough County will talk to me about this and it was fascinating. You know some of this is going to be obviously the most people suppose, but you know I never think about it. Then I mean I I know if anybody does, but

if you're in a warm humid climate of bodies point to decompose faster than a cool climate number, one to which the body is in water, warm water sure. Well, thank God. In this particular case, it was a pond if he dumped the body, and you know the ocean or something the sharks. What a guy you know this is different. They were able to use French, then that this was late. Ninety.

Yeah, you know it's, let's talk about, okay, so I'm just on that. You know I it's it's it's it's funny and you know what we talk by the way. I I I shipments of. I have to tell the and you know it's it's a lot cheaper to talk to you, then, to my Sarkis, where ever tell you that it did that yeah, but still not great results, maybe Let's talk about Christy Cow, because this case demonstrates everything and also really demi straits to the reader and the our audience tonight, the incredible access you have to be able to get This is beyond behind the scenes. This is when we talked about Beth Modine and at this property, an at the pond Christy Cow when is still alive in this pond, with an axe why

moon chopping, the head he try. This angler and she was still making noise. He he says later, as we find out from you Fred from your credible research that she's moaning in the back. It goes in hits hit with pieces. They would finally she still morning he goes out and gets a whole kids in the water and chops her till she's dead. This is. The kind of information that the police eventually find out that this is Christy Cowan yeah they find out the other Identification of the other woman, and now they have SAM Smithers, arrested And how do you know here and is, as you disc you're laying it out. Then it's very interesting because

in in a way you're almost laying it out like a prosecutor. Would I'm not saying you to prosecute I'm just saying what what I find interesting about this is. This is somebody the sitting here and I'm shaking my head you see, I felt the same way and will talk about it eventually. I feel the same way about this guy and still do as the judge that sentenced him to death, which is there was a lot of stuff going on here and look this. It's no surprise to your to your listeners that you know I'm not at death penalty guy for a lot of different reasons. Okay, you know what I prefer studying these guys on the microscopes. We

but in any case you know what happens here. You know when we talk about. Oh boy, see these prostitutes. You know I was trying to decide when I was supposed when I should tell you this Chris count. It and and Denise Roche take a New York NY. She came originally make? It went to your chat or one issue that a kid after it published both regionally. I was contacted by a whole, my God, this is shocked. Yeah get out. I was actually talking to somebody who had walked away.

You know, had found a way in life. I don't have any words. You know she could have been affected, but she put she she, she turned it around. You know and in that and what would that be give me an appreciation up is how easy. It is for people full from you know, wherever they are just some place else, money not getting a job, you'll miss you name it and then having to be so desperate, and I keep and I've seen us in a number of instances. Yeah, you are you, including the boy do that you talk about Hillsborough County and the Hillsboro Avenue, and this is the strip these women work on it and they had friends, and

so they were looking out after each other and so when they weren't around for a while, they knew that something was up, but also they had demand three per cautionary techniques like they wouldn't go to a Johns House. Per say, because it would be less control, but in this case, in this case it was unless there was plenty of crack and LE there was plenty of money. Yes, I how this happened. Yes, he was able to use drugs, to lure the women to go with him where he wanted to go to. So he could I mean that you know it's. You know that you know we're dealing with somebody when you start dealing with somebody like a SAM Smithers, all

logic goes out. The window you're dealing with a killer, and is you know you? Can you know you can say it? You know this happened that happened in this life, blah blah blah, but you still don't know what's going on. The fact is, is a killer. You know it. This is somebody that you know needs to be put away You introduce a character that again, very shuffle this pops Baker a very yeah and so he's a corporal after he's he's he's in control of people like Dorothy Flare and so when they finally put this together with SAM Smithers. They have to question him before of the approach again we talked about Sharons Roll, his wife's role in this yeah yeah.

What was that question again? What was what did they? What do they get from that and I We alluded to it already, but tell us what well. I I like I'm sitting here. I got a big smile on my face because she, when you mentioned pops Baker. What happened was when I first started work this is the third book I wrote about his work. There was another one. What what I'm getting at is that pops Baker was. That is the head of everything, so I knew this is, the dude. You know he he knew what he was doing in his science so and so to do this and he signed so much there to do that and so forth. So on, so that that's number one, I knew that you know, they knew. What they were doing here now will benefit what what was another question: I'm sorry what we talked about. You know pop spoke with Sharon,

he wanted and she was. She was there right with him right there at the at the police station, but let wasn't in an interrogation room, but where is Claire's you right question, SAM yeah, here's! What happens? We go back to what happened back in Chattanooga TN, what, when SAM sometime in the early 80s had to burn down there church in that car and so forth, and he wouldn't talk to the cops unless they were sharing it. Well, You know fade outfit in. He says the same thing here. So what happens? Is I've never seen this clear brain? then, there's flaring will at the two too many cops they're going to split. Blondes going to interview

it Shannon the others. Can you I and what happens? Is they you know they bring on both then And they sent him down, and I start talking to that and what happens is eventually. They gets SAM to talk with Sharon in a room, and then she, SAM Sports, contrasting of course like any psychopathic serial killer, he'd rather tribes. Before total responsibility and showing fact there is Is there there's no denials, but there is a sanitization of why this happened as well? Isn't there. Oh yeah is.

See the thing is when you see sanitisation hello. Good word um, the you're, dealing with the situation where this guy was it. Which was church, do you he was pillar of his community people, don't want somebody like that. You know who they supported, to be reported as a serial killer for God set. You know, and again what's so interesting to me, is that what's happening at the point, and you mentioned it earlier, tell it he's bored in

in their questioning Smithers Larry Lingo, the investigator on the on the earlier homicide with. He should be there and they, and you know they wind up using forensics. You know to get a smattering dna. And they get. What essentially is Jay my- No can't dna match, which simply is that they don't have a hundred and ten percent, but that got of over fifty set. You know without going into right. You know a you know, I'll, let your next forensic science is going to details on, but the point

Yes uh. They tried him into that. So now you got three, then you gotTA suspected one in that. In other words, we've got three people dead that we can tie into SAM Smithers. Three, then we gotta four. Which I don't deal with too much in the book, because we have too much information in the Florida Panhandle, but even at three hundred to say, isn't it even you know what you know Dan as I get older and I get more experience. These are peoples, mothers, sisters, brothers. You know what I mean we have to. Have a certain amount of compassion about what we're doing, and I think we do do have you know. I

We do have that, but you know this, but you know again. The good news here, good news here is that the see Hillsborough County, Sheriff's department, they're, fantastic. I want to say that you know they're not staying up anybody. You know and by the way they live right, not live there only down the block from this place that makes great cuban cigars, so they could buy me off in a heartbeat. But hey There you go just to let you know. What's interesting is in the book. You detail their dog it effort by police

this Dorothy flair. She even wrote the president of Trojan Condom company wasn't a president, but somebody important at Trojan condom company to get a match to put SAM at the murder scene for that number. Three, so this is done over beyond police work. You, oh man, you know what. You're giving me perspective seriously because you talk to people, Well, you know more than I do. You know all over the place, and yes, she is what happens, though I think Slayer, who is the investigator in the case, Becomes aware that there is a what

at not like, like a rat, thank you, a rapper from a condom at the at the crying she where he was just yell at this at this place out in the country that it was killed. These two women, but he also made love shit, I'm there, so they found this rapper and

it turns out that old man it was good, but what a piece of detective work? Oh man, they went back and they talk to one of the victims. I think we stays is, I think, these days, but it's not even relevant. It's like it's one of the two dictum this prince who said she gave the victim ten dollars. The flair did detective. The appearance find this a rapper at the scene of the crime. Checks it with the the company and is able to trace it back in and eventually find it out that it was it was given. It was the same kind of giving to the victim by her friends, and that is a piece

of exculpatory incriminating evidence against SAM Smithers. That puts in. Essentially, into the death chamber, though, is of course, still alive. You talk about that as well. That most times that have defended will take the stand even in a death penalty case, of course, in this case after denying that geron, the confession he gave with Cher and he tried to say of course. Of course we go. The obligatory attempts to to nullify what is already been done. What is already been said, and then they try to do a diminished capacity, defense the thing that they can death penalty opponents, a couple of people who are accused, so he has different

legal aid attorneys, but really gets up on the stand, and what kind of store re does the weave when he has the opportunity? What does he say? Hey Sherin is has been with him till another person gets in her right, but she had been loyal to him well, regardless of what he thought was a coerced confession. He gets on that stand. What's his version Well, he is too is too weird. He claims she's the victim of a conspiracy. Mysterious individuals trying to convict control them, he was threatened, he had

to do the duty, but he also got paid. It was really interesting. He says the guy who forced me threaten me to kill these been dispose of the people he killed, but then he gave me four hundred dollars for my efforts, yeah. Well, no evidence of that. He was full of crap course it's, but it was good you know it was good genius comment in here

Something since the you are, thank God, a canadian citizen, the New York Mets lost twenty five One or something last night, so the wash international who used to be the expo's, ok, Dan, twenty five Excuse me: let's move on, I know the road track, death penalty, we have always always has the opponent's. Obviously people trying to save this guy's life regardless of what. But there are mitigating. Circumstances and other things called aggravated and mitigate ears

There wasn't any made a gators in this was there there was a temps, but your you know what at has it. You know what you're forcing me should be objective, which is important as a journalist and at the same time hi. It's me the decision that build one day, the judge in the case where yeah, which is very rare right, and that is that, according to the law of the guy, was killed, there's nothing else to say: okay, I'm not for the death.

Selfie as I said, but I will tell you that you're in Florida, where I do live the one of the things they do is in that situation and I'm I can on this one will get mobile one million dollars for defendant selves. You know I mean so this. This was not something with a mitigating circumstances. You know you know how many people you know. How many people that are listening to our show tonight to your show tonight, not your show across the world.

How many of you have faced abuse as a child, but you grew beyond it? That's not an excuse. No, that is not an excuse to commit murder. Sorry guys, it's not an excuse. At the same time, there is a is, there is an examination in here at least the defense lawyers try to paint a portrait that mother Lenny and the Father. Uh, there's an alcoholic and then the mother beat the kids, but it was mixed in. Religiosity so that when he became a deacon again again, I don't agree with any kind of blame. I agree with you that again there's it. You have to take responsibility and that's it. I don't I hear too much about how this was created, but the thing is that this humiliation again, whether in in a of people,

and humiliated, I've had humiliation. You been a million it I'm sure after at least what we thought was affiliation, but it seems that this is the reoccurring theme with these guys is it there such a fragile ego. Second can't get that mothers, domineering control as you write, a She was still controlling it, his marriage when they want a bigger, beautiful home. She was still it's it's it's very weird. She stay in the house and say: well, I don't know if I could feel comfortable you is paid for. Obviously Oh no, you might be, the house might be taken away. I can't really feel comfortable and he still conceded to his mother. Even through his marriage. You see what you're saying you, you know my god. Yes, this guys making excuses. Sure ok

and you know when you look at it, you said you sell I'll, say it again, how many people listening you are tonight have been through these situations. You guys are fine individuals, otherwise I'd be tracking you down. So the thing is the thing is we got it, you know, there's other aspects and again you know you know my god I mean you know we could talk about this forever about. There's got to be some other at it's, not due the question of nature and are not a nurture. Rather there's got to some other aspects involved here and I suspect I've always suspected that when it comes to serial killer here talking about something genetic and eventually you know

eventually. You know. Whenever you know the starship enterprise gets around two hundred will you know? I think the thing is our. Treatment of like we said that people don't really care the police again but police historically will tell people or have told people they're, mostly the numerous times. They're, probably just gone away. You've got nothing to worry about, and it probably well intended, but it's not good advice and it ends up at least most peoples Experian is that they don't seem to be as concerned, and I can seem to understand because they don't have any leads there. Lee in a dangerous lifestyle and again, there's no leads, so there can be less less effort or more effort has to be put into something that people will will agree that there's less effort in finding these people in caring about people that seemingly according to the police, to work with these. People all the time, they're, not helping them.

Elves they're hurting their putting themselves in in danger, but also So the idea that we know all that over and over again the serial killers target, these people and yet as a society once a person, falls through that cracks of addiction, then, is salt themselves on the street. Then the serial killer takes out all his frustrations in his life, but the thing is that these prostitutes and prostitution set up a phone book, even an innocent, fantastic Canada. It's just like a pizza that is accepted so that the street prostitute that's fifteen year olds and sixteen years old again is tolerated. Somehow, if he legal? Yes, it's important, it's it is, it could be daughters, it could be anyone involved with us, but it's not a priority and the serial kill

there over and over and over again goes there to vent and then in the courts. Of course, we can put him to death, but these problems exist and we can raise awareness. But I don't know how much more aware of this week and get your book everyone's book tells about this. So. You know our again, no, you know what I love about. What you're saying. You're really getting into. Morals and ethics- and I totally agree with you obviously. I mean we are you wanna know something I'll just say it. Yeah, I don't know how it is in other place, you know, I'm you know I try to keep up with. What's going on. What I find is hard

Is that year we're talking about? Are we talking about sure it killers we're the good guys? In other words, there was a period of time went with. There will There were role. Models should be heroes, good guys and that doesn't exist anymore You know, I don't know I I all I can say is you know the when You know when I was reading again What I wrote about SAM Smith, that I was see you today and it's been a long time. You know. Since I read it, then I was reading this in. Somebody stop this guy earlier. That's what yeah.

Well, I think the only thing you can do- and I was speaking to somebody just recently talking about sex trafficking, and I said the court responsibility and recognizing the kind is the personalities by their proven behavior that exhibits and distant cells or separates from lesser because again I hate to use that less serious criminals. There are some criminal presented by you know that. Are obvious to everyone. It seems, except that that that conviction record that this sin is a dangerous person, and this is the kind of person we need to reckon noise is having this kind of behavior because we see stocking and we see break and enter. We see some of these things turn to murder. So, of course you can't prosecute people for

a break and enter where no one was hurt, but when there is a recognized violent act, I think, if you look at all these true crime case as if that were the case yet, then it would have been. Intervention before more bodies. Let's put it that way at you know I I I I I couldn't agree with you more. I mean I keep saying this in various cases I've written about. Can I go watch, Somebody intervene over here what, if somebody is doing over there, you know I'm especially talking about serial killers. You know, and so so you know look. It is what it is. But when I wrote when I wrote thinking of death, I guess The thing that got me the most was that- and I mentioned earlier in the

playing this guy from a very young age. That's what's interesting,. You know when you actually get access to background information on the serial killer and you can sort of report that sort of, but you report to the reader, but what the person's about that's? What I did, what kind of information you know, because people will we don't see the kind of information that you've gathered, because it's just into or in. Open into the into the narrative. What exactly did you get free, I'm sharing, I mean again, is very unique for you to talk to a wife of serial killer in especially this kind of wife. That was supportive, yet wouldn't believe, leave for a long time that her husband could ever do any of this.

So she was a very naive woman from a particular sort of background as well. What kind of stuff tell us more. Even just tell us more about the actual meeting with her and what she actually gave you. There was no physical meeting. What happened was I was able to track her down through records. I called her, I told her what I was doing and we just started talking for quite some time which is the way any journalist would do it hum king of Ronan Farrow, but my father is not the Woody Allen. But anyway, but I just called her and we with chatting and we formed a relationship, and I just told her I was just trying to you know. I uh

I told her what I learned from CALL Berenstain. If you lecture once that I was at Bernstein, said that. The idea journalism is the best attainable version of the church? That's what I told her. I was trying to find the best obtainable version of the truth. So she help me an intel. See what her life is like with with her husband and so forth. It was a very unusual situation. Certainly Yeah. It was the first time I've never had that kind of a situation, uh and she was forthcoming very forthcoming, and you know trust me is just a really nice. You can bring. It's interesting: you write that they met well. She was twelve when he was fourteen and I guess school religious settings yeah,

They never were apart until he was questioned and, and one of the detective said, listen. We think that you should call somebody not stay with him tonight then so she was convinced, and then he kept saying after for for amount of the time you left me. He was incredulous that she had actually left him because they hadn't been apart for years and years and years great point grade point: what happened was the net at such a young age? They would together sort of like the um, I think of the country western singer in a second, but it was, it was every day of their lives from the age of about twenty or so ok, when they got married, I think she was seventeen. He was twenty and that was it. You know and uh.

Eight, they were always together. They had this relationship where every day They were together, they will never apart, that is neither One of them ever traveled per se. She also was a very obviously trusting individual and she I heard that he was doing anything unusual um, event. You know late at night and of course that was the case. She was leaving late at night and going out making it walkers and. Did the early morning, hours and so forth and so on, which interesting too, is that he had this secret life and then And she had no idea this. He was successful in keeping that, but he did have a quite a bit of a different character, even scared off the

is noted that even scared off a couple of people with some of his demand. So he couldn't really each out to regular women for an affair. He had to go to the streets to these people that were desperate for some of the things he wanted one to do sexually correct. You know why that is a really excellent observation. That's absolutely true! She she she market ST, is sexually. That, and you know I know we don't have it all a lot of details, but he certainly was into a certain amount of physical stuff and the guy will handle it. I had a screw loose and, and now we could try to analyze it from now until doomsday

regarding the mother. But it's a waste of time. It's really waste the time, because. Or it all comes down to. Is he Was an abusive individual. Who would eventually come that at least. Two murders that we know of possibly three. There was a an inmate that was involved and we have like a many of these cases. There's always somebody it seems ready to come forward. The I thought that old, maybe is going to be the talk of other murders, but it wasn't. But what was that talk that sort of seem to conflict with what sherron thought and some other people thought about the former deacon just that he done it. Can you come back, he said

darling, and he was you know when he went into some detail whatever it might be, but he was just saying that he done it and. That's where is You know where he was deviating from. You know a story for the police. Later we said it was some strange individual that did it yeah. You know. I think it's interesting to when the psychopathic nature of these guys is evident when they make that decision to take the Stand so he says: well, it's a last ditch effort and they might as well try to defend themselves, but they really. It is an ultimate. I think, in a narcissism that the cycle path has it he thinks well. I think I might be able to do this.

I'll get the address for nomination I'll, get that story out there and then I'll go to toe to toe with these people. Oh, I agree with that. Totally. Absolutely there there is the narcissism you're talking about is classic absolutely clips You talk about sharing as well that the spell that he weeds on her. She even visit him in prison every day for many years, but there was a. Is the name rex uh or if I don't know, if you talk to run the phone about this, but she was able to break away from this life of being dependent upon SAM Smithers. Wasn't she yeah she? She found a boyfriend and eventually happy with your present for awhile,

and she wound up, but forcing him and Merrick this out. Well yeah and that's what happened. You know she was able to find a way to. To move on, but it obviously it must have been terribly difficult. Yeah- and she knew at some point to that- she needed to shield her son from this as well, when she did realize well, despite thinking she knew him, she needed to protect her son yeah, but the problem was our son was approaching adulted. In fact, one of the things I I I was I was able to research was that their son and I'm not going to give his name. I keep is

And on and right he is now a physical therapist in Boston. So while he never played combat socks, he's up there doing physical therapy, which is cool he he was convicted for or Denise Roach and was crazy challenge. Christy Cowan AN and Cruz nine cruise. No, not cruise. So only if he was he was convicted for did and Roach was there. They just did not

we are not able to make, have enough evidence to get any more convictions. I know that you write in the book, but there was other police from other jurisdictions looking into that was any leads from that. Was there any results from that at all? No, there weren't. If they've got him, they would have done it, but no, they didn't get it. Make they couldn't element anything else? The cruise situation was such that as I as I, Mentioned it was not one hundred percent dna Natural, but it looked like you know they they did it with. The mitochondrial DNA, which is about a fifty percent match, which essentially says if somebody

transformed and at the check your whole family to all so yeah that young, but it's not enough for a conviction right well, for that matter, don't use what was the use. You, you alluded to. The conviction, was the death penalty and just tell us about the state itself why he doesn't have a quick order to be put to death or didn't have a quick quarter. Well, there is no such thing as a quick order and in Florida, basically it will be. If you know the way it works in Florida is the at the time this occurred.

Uh, the the jury votes on whether or not to convict the individual, and then did your emotes one of the individual kits death. However, late war has changed here since this, so that only in other words, all the individuals who condemned to death on the basis I'm just um, you jury say it. It doesn't work they're going back to having a jury. Look at it. But the point is right now, since the others yeah he's on death row, but he's not gonna be executed football. Ok, it's not gonna happen for awhile.

And yeah there's a lot of guys. Have you heard of any movement or anything any any events, anything any stories emanating from the cell of SAM Smithers as he made any statements, any anything publicly. That he's done no word from a nothing quiet, very quiet, yeah, very polite. And you said that this was the Hillsborough County was is been a first of stories for you three times now for three books very interesting. Yeah they lost the boy and then decanted death, and then this book

which is he can yeah and I've also written. You know better sh backward cool. Well, I read book about a murder case up in Tallahassee FL, which is trail of trails of death. But this is different because. Partement is extremely open. Now the stated state itself is 'cause. We have an open records law, but these individuals I tried to be the best out nails yeah. That's it all the the cumulative things that have happened,

and in this case the incredible access you had and, like you say, the open records Policia Florida is created this book that just incredible graphic, detail and then we get the incredible background of SAM growing up and his. Why do including his mother Lenny and just the again. The sad do hardening yeah life of these prostitutes on the strip. Here you even include- I mean the sexual activities, that these people offer the the meager prices and just the heartbreaking thing of the protection at the Christy Cowan- had to say that she not going to go to these Johns apartments, then quickly soon, as he offered a little bit of money and then there you know: there's fate was sealed so

congratulate you on. I know it's a book. That's in the fast but again through find plastic deacon of death. I want to thank you Fred for coming on and sharing the story with us for those it might want to talk to you. I mean they died Look there and you're on message boards and you're out there on discussion board, but for those that just heard you for the first time, tell us a. Here's a website and Facebook pages? I I ii am my facebook page instead of you know, for gross and whatever they call it at Facebook and I'm I'm yes, I'm just the up, my site, which is Fred Rosen. That call so there we go. I look forward to talking to people and I can't thank you enough for giving me the opportunity to talk to your one million listeners

for us the world ten. Well. Thank you very much Fred, and it's always nice because we always, as you know, on Facebook, there's been always talk of how people love our interviews. The battle between us and just talking about you're fantastic, true crime books. So thank you very much. Fred have a great evening, and I know I will be talking to you again real soon. Ok, you take care and how audios? How do you spread? Goodnight the house of Rohl journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this, you'll see the details of your own story: the story of a life well, crafted welcome to the house of row.

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