A 12-year-old boy cowers in his closet while a lunatic killer slaughters his family . . . a nursing student unwittingly opens her home to the serial killer on her front porch . . . an 11-year-old girl drifts alone at sea on a flimsy cork raft for almost four days after a mass murderer kills her vacationing family aboard a chartered yacht . . . a brave firefighter suddenly finds himself in the crosshairs of a racist sniper almost nine stories above the ground . . . And, astonishingly, they all survived. From Howard Unruh’s 1949 shooting rampage through a quiet New Jersey neighborhood to Louisiana serial killer Derrick Todd Lee’s reign of terror in 2002, the corpses piled up and few lived to tell their tale of horror. Award-winning journalist Ron Franscell explores the wounded hearts and minds of the ordinary people these monsters couldn’t kill. His mesmerizing accounts crackle with gritty details that put the reader in the midst of the carnage—and offer a front-row seat on the complex, painful process of surviving the rest of their haunted lives. Delivered From Evil takes the reader on a pulse-pounding dash through the murky intersection of pure evil and the potency of the human spirit, a journey into the darkest corners of the American crime-scape. DELIVERED FROM EVIL-Ron Franscell.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder. The most shocking killers in true cried history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy Bundy Dahmer night Stalker BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer Dan asking. Good evening this is your host Dan is asking for the program, true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and others that have written about them a twelve year boy powers in his closet, while a lunatic killer slaughters, his family
I dont use. The flavors of pumpkin are back in a big way, we're talking, pumpkin doughnuts, pumpkin methods, pumpkin munchkins, don't at horse, oh boy, prompting coffee, pumpkin, iced, coffee, pumpkin, frozen coffee, pumpkin lattes and the exciting new cinnamon sugar pumpkin signature latte, which has got sugar and spice and everything nice. It's pumpkin, flavoured everything and Duncan America runs on Duncan. Oh aunt, pumpkin cake, ipods to limited time, offer participation, Mayberry Kerrigan kick up use under licence, nursing student unwittingly opens her home to the serial killer on her front porch on her front porch and eleven RO girl, drifts alone at sea on a flimsy cork raffer, almost four days after a massacre were, kills her vacationing family border chartered yacht a brave firefighters suddenly finds himself. And the crosshairs of a racist sniper, almost nine stories above the ground, an astonishingly they all survive from Howard Andrews night
in forty nine shooting rampage through a quite new Jersey, neighbourhood, the Louisiana serial Killer, Derek Todd, Liese, reign of terror in two thousand and two, the corpses piled up and few live to tell their tale of horror, award, winning journalist RON front cell explores the Woon did hearts and minds of the ordinary people. These monsters wouldn't kill. His mesmeric met, rising accounts crackle with gritty details. It put the reader in the midst of the carnage and offer a front RO seat on the complex, painful process of surviving the rest of their haunted. Lives delivered from evil takes the reader on a pulse pounding dash through the murky intersection of pure evil and the potency of the human spirit a journey, to the darkest corners of the american crimes gate delivered from evil. With my special guest journalist and author RON Frentzel welcome to the program, and thank you read this interview run for himself. Thank you for having me I'm just delighted to be here. Well, thank you very
I'm sure we have a great interview now you ve written quarter, future cry crime, books or a few to crime books, maybe let us know why what was your decision to sort of a well, not the sort of, but to approach this true crime book from from a completely different perspective, Intel guess what that perspective was and why you decided to write a book from this unique perspective. Well, delivered from evil is, is a collection of of ten profile at its heart. In each of these, we have vivid portrait these killers and the ivory desire paths, converge and then course explode into a billion pieces and in thin. We follow those survivors as their left to pick up those pieces and try to put their life
is back on on track to something that looks a little bit like normal. I have a great affection for the survivor experience. It was at the heart of my first true crime book, the darkest night, which is a very intimate story, because it happened to two friends of mine to childhood friends of mine, and I wanted to capture some of that intimacy delivered from evil. So in each of these ten stories there there. Cold in the narative journalism style, where we are offering some dramatic interpretation of what happened largely through the eyes of these survivors, and I think that
it makes it a much more personal story and and for any rears who have read it doing those. I think who will read it in the future. They'll get that they'll they'll see a crime from a perspective that could be there's. Now, another aspect that you did you have included in this book. As well is that use you purposely told of stories that are not so well known, yet there was a certain magnet to their crime. That certainly warranted at examination from your book. Not only because of the victims, perspective and point of view tell us live or a few of the other ten profiles and is
store ically, where and when they occured well. As you mentioned some of the uh, you know the heart of the matter in your introduction. It was about the survivors and not necessarily the killers. You know. I found that as a ouch. This story in the more of these survivors that I talk to it. I was aware that I was zeroing in on a handful of cases that most people, probably hadn't, heard of I became aware that does the size the headline didn't matter much to these people. They were in the line of fire, they were wounded, they could have died, they lost loved ones and they live with. With the aftermath of this,
almost as certainly as representative Gabby Giffords will live forever, with her wounds from the Tucson shooting a couple of months ago, so we in my mind it became the story, became this survivor's story and not necessarily the notoriety of the killer, so we have in in this book. We have these ten incidents, the first one in the earliest one and the first one in the book is Howard Unruh, one thousand nine hundred and forty nine, shooting spree and his quiet little neighborhood in Camden NJ. Unruh was was a troubled world war, two veteran and
and ultimately some paranoid tendencies got the best of him and he, you know, walked through his neighborhood with a pistol killing his own neighbors. An and a few people that you didn't even know he was very calm. Very methodical in a very efficient among the people he killed was over was a father, mother and grandmother of twelve year old, Charles Cohen, who hid in a closet an escaped being killed as his whole family was but Unruh killed. I think thirteen. That day and he and he became erroneously, he he got the label of the Father of Mass murder in America and Hugh. He
wasn't the first mass murderer in America. He wasn't even the most prolific mass murderer to nineteen forty nine in America, but but something he did captured the imagination of the media and of the people and and he did set in motion sort of What has been you know, a long history of of mass shootings here, so he's he's one of the more recognizable names in there, the Luby's cafeteria killing in nineteen ninety one, in Killeen TX, where George Kennard crashes, his truck through the front windows of this cafeteria and then begins methodically.
Chilling the diners inside and kills. Ultimately, twenty three and wounds. Many more. We have a little known case from nineteen. Seventy three of a Navy veteran black man named Mark Essex, who becomes radicalized in the black Panthers and decides that he to lash out against. You know why depression and he sets fires all over a new Orleans, hotel, an begins, killing white people, in fact, very deliberately skips over many black people that he comes across during this day. Long siege and the survivor that I talk about
been delivered from evil, is a firefighter who is responding to these fires, hoping to save people any literally com. His face to face with this killer this sniper and a high power rifle almost nine stories in the heirs he's climbing the ladder so a harrowing moment, as you can imagine, the mcdonnel massacre in nineteen. Eighty, four in San Isidro, California, a very famous mass murder, an eye profiling in this book when he was a twelve year old boy, keep more Chinns twelve year old boy who hid under a table, one was shielded from being killed by by the father of his best friend. In the end, his best friend and his best friends mother are killed in that massacre, but Keith survives and.
If that weren't harrowing enough, the story of his next a door years, dealing with this dramatic stress will will curly hair. I mean it is in many ways more horrifying and what he went through, laying there under that table in the Mcdonald's. So they're, all in that vein and again all put a lot of a lot of their energy into the perspective of the survivor. Now you must have had some common result and common characteristics that you saw for the most between all of these victims. After all, your research, through all of these harrowing stories, what would be the thing he would say it is most common between all of the survive. You talk a little bit about forgiveness, but tell us what
You know, I don't put words in your mouth. Tell us what was the common commonality you found between most of these or all of these victims, well they're, good and bad. The bad things are that they all they all went through years, not months not weeks, not days years of of nightmare. Cars and sleeplessness and paranoia they develop trust issues. As you might imagine, they had very, very complex feelings about what had happened to them, and why They they all avoided hats at some point in that I'm an. I hasten to add that some of the people profiled in the we are still on that journey. They haven't completely returned
do anything that looks like normal yet but they're getting there, but they they live. Avoid certain people and places and situations that remind him of the tragedy. They stuffed their emotional responses down a little bit and kind of purposely numbed them among them among these people, I spent as much just one thousand and ten days to two weeks with with these each of these survivors, I went to them and spin intensive time in interviews with them in, and I found it in the almost in every case, the first day or so was spent just listening to a story that they'd told one thousand times and after that they started increasingly, for the next couple of weeks had to answer
questions that sometimes they hadn't even thought about before and they had to, they had to summon up emotions that they they had pushed down. In many cases, of course, you can imagine we're doing interviews and I would often say: hey: let's go get some lunch or let's go get some dinner or something in the cases of, for instance, Keith Martins from them Ronald or on a gratia up from the lobbies cafeteria they were, they were visit really nervous about going to a restaurant sure, and in even though they would always go there. I would allow always noticed them watch the door. You know positioning themselves in what they believed was a safe location and in in both of those cases. We are no twenty or more years past the event, but that's how hawn
these people are. Many of them turned alcohol and drugs to kind of dull, their pain and, and this sense of helplessness that they have most of them developed, survivor guilt. They didn't understand and couldn't compute why they survived when other people didn't most of them need to talk about their experiences or did need to talk about the experiences, but people around them, sometimes frustrated that or or in some of the successful cases made it possible. So I came to the conclusion that
of a survivor of this kind of event really need somebody did to listen to them, and I hope that some of the survivors of the Tucson tragedy have those people. The fact is, some of these people will some of the survivors that go through this. They just never survive, they just never recover really. They, they kind of just stop and just wait to die. Do they have already died now they just need to stop walking around an that's. The sad part of this. Many of the people that I considered for this book
had had stalled out in that and were not recovering. So I think that that's desert sad part of this, but the good stuff, the lucky ones. I think they make a certain piece with with their monsters. In this way. I talk about forgiveness, I'm not really talking about it in religious terms or faithful terms. I'm talking about it, and most of these survivors would wouldn't talk about it as a religious element. They would talk about it as kind of realization that they couldn't move forward. Until there monsters
no longer played a role in their life, or at least didn't play a starring role, they came to know that you know they couldn't possibly hope to regain any of their equilibrium. Uh you know, unless they sort revoked permission for Charles Whitman and James Puberty and Derrick Todd Lee to influence their choices anymore. Now these people haven't forgotten what happened? You know any accepting one case among these ten. They absolved their killers or there would be killers. Kevin said it's ok. I understand they don't feel that way, but I think each of them
Each of them has has limited their monsters roles in their life and and ass. You know, I think, a step in the right direction for them Ann. Now, in each of them, each of them understands that they got a gift on that day. They were. They were given life when people all around him were dying. Ann in that sense, when I finish this book, I had this sense that if these ten people can recover kind of get back to normal, then the rest of us have hope. Right now. I wanted to talk about because you Talking about how the survivor recovers- and you talk about some of the bad elf, it's obviously the obvious bad elements, but a lot of these care. There is in this Balkan, including start with this trials coin. Is it these people were married and had children, so it
least, in my mind, that seems to be a good sign of recovery. If you move on enough to find a made, they can deal with you despite this. These nightmares in this certainly post dramatic stress disorder from all of these people. But the thing is what you had said was that most of these people somehow put him away at least try to not have an effect on. They didn't to absolve themselves of this, but Charles Cohen wanted to see this person lead this planet or or so he was a little bit different, but I find it does this actually to start the book. All the stories are fascinating, but especially I thought was Charles Cohen story because, like you say at twelve years old- and I think that if you could talk a little bit about just the day in question to that, he thought that maybe his mother had just died. His grandmother, I believe, rose, had put him in the closet to hide, but his horror started progress.
He not only did he this whole thing go down and is not then found his mother dead. Then he asked well didn't realize till right away that his whole family was gone then from there maybe talk a little bit more about Charles Colon because it was unique in his recovery. Not only did he have all these horrible things at a young age embedded in his mind, but the way he recovered and the fascinating story of how Howard on Raw. Become sort of more continual pain, Charles Cohen, with what turn of events happened, cousin, Howard on Raw and his case, and what they do legally with his courtship right right? Well, you know, Charles is a twelve year old boy. He is dead before school starts uh or a day or two before school starts and
his grandmother is promised him a trip into Philadelphia to buy some school clothes and that sort of thing, and so he's kind of anxiously waiting for. Listen. You sitting at the window, the second story window of his father's drug store in this little neighborhood of Camden an he sees. Unruh their next door, neighbor walking down the street firing a gun in and he watches his Unruh actually walks up to somebody and shoots him He sounded the alarm in o YE yells. You know peace, shooting people his mother and father or down the stairs in the drug store, she runs upstairs. Charles is hidden in the closet, quickly, Andrew, come through. The drugstore kills the father who's, trying to get away, kills the mother or the grandmother and then leaves without finding
Charles and he actually had an axe to grind with Charles 'cause. Charles was a musician and played his trumpet at night and it gathered on route to know in and he he intended to kill Charles, but he he moved on on this little walk of there and an Charles was left alive. So Charles now is an orphan Unruh is arrested and it is very rare for a mass murderer to actually survive these events, but, but here he is he's in police custody. He admits what he's done. He described in great detail and he's immediately determined by the prosecutor to be insane and so so he's essentially taken right from the police station to these state
hospital in New Jersey, where he spends the next sixty years of his life, never pending trial, never going to court on any of these charges. So here's this little boy. Little orphan, he he bounces around with some family for a while. Never talking about this and probably never being allowed to talk about this he pushes his deep down inside men of that of those the you know, that of that time and were expected to live with their their dismay maintenance live with their pain and not complain and in it Charles grew up in that mould. He he put but it all down. He never talked about it. He he grows up to be fine The woman he's going to marry, but he does
even tell her until their wedding night. What has happened to him. And then he never really mentions it again. He has three daughters, they grow up to be adults. And in the nineteen in the early 1980s Unruh still insane asylum once some a little extra freedom, uh. This request necessitates a court hearing Charles is faced with this decision. Does he keep his secret Or does he step up in speak on behalf of the dead on behalf of his wiped out family, again, a little more freedom for this insane killer? He he decides he's going to.
Speak up and he literally comes out an becomes the vocal representative for all the people, who were injured or killed that day and maybe by that time, a lot of people who who had gone through similar circumstances so. You're, a long away fascinating little to bid them. I learn was along the way he when he left his parents drug store and never went back. He took some some of his possessions in a suitcase
he later turned back suitcase into a kind of time, capsule heap he would put clippings and pictures and in all kinds of artifacts and mementoes of this event and stick em in that suit case and keep it hidden it. He successfully hid it all those years by the time we got to know each other. He had told me that his his dream was that someday Unruh would die and that he would take that suitcase out and bury it and in a sense he would be burying he would be back yet the memory and end the haunt that that had color did over all these years.
As it happens, he died about six weeks before unruly died in two thousand and nine and he didn't get a chance to do that. But after his death I was privileged to be able to look through that suit case and an essentially feel his memories and feel his haunt through the things that he had quit their he hated Andrew Cabin, absolutely hated him. He is so when I say forgiveness is not in the traditional sense. All Charles understood was that he couldn't let unruly ruin the rest of his life. The auld wife came after twelve years old hand was his forgiveness and ultimately he understood his role was to speak up for the dead and, and he did that eloquently.
How'd he found quite a bit of catharsis. You had said in in that in that standing up for other people's rights and coming out of the closet, so he was to his benefit in the healing process. Wasn't it absolutely an, I think, just is all of these people are somewhere on a road back to normal there's a piece of each one of them to the that will never be normal again and in Charles case. I think this this grinding hatred that he had for this this killer. As he said, Unruh one of the things Unruh wanted, while he was in the asylum, was to live closer to his aged mother, so they could visit with her. She would visit him quite often while she was alive.
Eyes, but but one of the things troll said in opposing this new freedom within the asylum was it he wants to see his mother. But when I want to see my mother, I have to go to a cemetery yeah and- and it is very poignant he- he gave a very poignant voice. I think to a lot of us. Sure. The thing is, we won't dwell on this too much, but what was the motive for this rampage The well known, as often happens when these things when these things happen- and we saw it in two on thursdays- there's this urge to say will why did you do it again? in the absence of solid answers we make stuff up. I mean you know. We did it in Tucson, with the people talking about was the political rhetoric
Well now we know had nothing to do with it, but but but I've wager the twenty or thirty years from now when talk about your log in and to sun? Political rhetoric will be mentioned, such as it was such that so it was with Andrew Unruly, was you know, had had been in world war. Two he had been a fairly good soldier, a very meticulous soldier. He would keep a diary of the germ since he killed and that's very strange yeah is a very strange guy. Well, but by the end he had seen combat, obviously when this happens. The immediate reaction is, oh, he's he's a I'll shocked, veteran sure out today, PTSD, but what we now know is that he was severely troubled before the war. He
is also homosexual. He had developed, he wasn't paranoid schizophrenic, but but he he had developed a paranoia and a lot of it related to his homosexuality, which of course, was beautiful. You know as badly as its view today it seems multiplied by a hundred in the nineteen fortys, and I think that I think that, ultimately, you can see in his behaviour in his psychology that is difficult. Please go back to childhood, had very little to do if anything, with his war experience. As it happened, he he had kept the list, people that he wanted to kill, and this would have been doing this for about two years by the time the shooting happened. He
he had gone to a gay cinema in Philadelphia. The night before came back very late and a new little gate that he had built in his yard, mostly so he didn't have to cut through the Cohens backyard. This little gate had been knocked off its hinges and he he believed it was done on purpose and he to bed and decided that tomorrow morning he would go and kill all the people on his list uh and he did he waited till nine hundred and thirty because he knew the shops would then be open and many of the people want to kill were shopkeepers. He he then begins this methodical trek through his neighborhood killing. Not only people who are on his list, but then anybody who has to be around including a little six year old boy, who's, getting a haircut from the barber uh
So what's at him off well, it seems like it was that little gate thing, but we can see that there is there were these two years of a building paranoia, the people were talking about him and insulting, and behind his back and and so on, nothing. You do with war. Here is very interesting case too, because, given the atmosphere these days, not Many insanity pleas are accepted in courts, given his cool demeanor and the pre planning. I think, in a lot of states he would not have been sent to the meant institution. That just my opinion anyway. Well, he didn't hidden affably he literally was just judged by the prosecutor to be. You know crazy. I needed to go to the to the insane asylum, no, no court, the indictment against
Jim stood for more than twenty years until it was just finally dropped. He did. There is no question that that in today's atmosphere and possibly even in the atmosphere of his time that he would have been judged to be guilty and chuckled Lee would have faced the death sentence, even though I think people would have said yeah he's he's nutty, but he knew he was doing wrong. He talks about that sure so he qualified for you know the for a guilty verdict, even though I think we would all agree that he had mental difficulties. Sure now there's another fascinating case in chapter two, which is incredible. Another story. I knew nothing about the Brent do and the Atlanta day trader spree
at all tack and Marco O Barton. This is an incredible story. Tell us a little bit about this. The chemist, the killer a little bit about term, Mark Barton and this incredible story well marked Barton, and then we have another. We have another case you're like Andrew, like Lardner, where the first blow sure why why he went on this killing spree turns out to be wrong, but Mark Martin was, you, know, kind of happy. Lucky guy got along with everybody, but he had a dark side. Did he kept very kept hidden from from the people around him and he he had had a wife who, with her
other, had ultimately been murdered by uh. None assailant at at some years in his past, but he hee 90s got into something that was big back then called data. Basically it was you get on the computer and you do these stock trades and it might be seconds and you right only hold a stock for anywhere from minute two hours and then and then sell it, hopefully at something higher than what you paid for it, so that you and every day, the goal being that you would end and you every day with more money than you started with, and a lot of little sort of boutique uh
store opened up all over the country to enable this. All they needed was fairly fast, very fast internet connection, some computers and give him some training, the guy would pay off see and to use the computer and maybe a percentage of his of his profits. So it was a lucrative kind of thing and an Barton by this time is remarried. He's got a couple of kids and this his only is only income is state trading, any kind of bombastic about it. There you know you, they called him the rocket see what do these things anybody, yet he was still a friendly guy. Everybody liked him. In time. Things are going south and EAST It's getting more and more
behind and borrowing more money from these firms to do his day trading until by this time in nineteen. Ninety seven of the time of the shooting in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven he's in deep and the people around kind of been enabling this at these firms are kind of beginning to call in their markers. Well, one day he just decides, you know he's going and at all he kills his two children in their beds. He kills his wife uh. And leaves a suicide note. Basically that says he did all this. He didn't kill his first wife, which was an odd thing for a suicide note, but then he goes down to one. The day. Trading firms in Atlanta
goes in and shoots up the place then walks across the street to another one. Which is co owned by the survivor that I write about in delivered from evil Brennan. And he shoot brand to shoot several other people and and and then escapes all before cops kind of click to what's happening. So you get quite a quite a jump on the police. You can imagine Ultimately, twelve people are killed, thirteen or wounded, and he he is surrounded by cops later and commit suicide. Went down in his shot five times. He loses all of his blood
for the next twenty four hours, all of the bloody started with anyway and barely survives, and- and so this is about him- and I would say in Brent's case this is This is a similar story. He's he's got an intense hatred of Barton he's got an intense hatred of of the dead, though kind of infamy and notoriety that these killers get, and yet we can't name. Any of the survivors I mean, you've got a very learn audience so so let me speak to them for a second I'll, give you Sharin, Tate, but Nate name, one other survive name, one other victim of uh
serial killer or a mass murderer sure we can name a lot of serial killers and mass murderers, but most of us would have difficulty naming to victims and I think Brent, Doonan carry that kind of resentment still carries that kind of resentment, even though his life has has gotten a good track and and he's doing very well. Now I asked if I could. I would like to just read part of that letter that you talked about because it is such a indication of how this guy thought Barton Sawdust a little bit of it may be the last couple paragraphs, but anyway it says to whom it may concern. He said I killed children to exchange them for five minutes of paying for a lifetime of pain. I force myself to do it keep them from suffering. So much later, no mother, no are there no relatives, the fears of the FAO
there are transferred to the sun. It was from my father to me and from meeting my son he already had it and now to be left alone. I have to take him with me. I killed Leigh Anne because she was one of the main reasons for my demise. As I plan to kill the others. I really wish I hadn't killed her now. She really couldn't help it and I love her how much anyway, but your whole we'll take care of all of them in the next life. I'm sure the data, those don't matter there is no excuse, no good reason, I'm sure no one would understand if they could. I wouldn't want them to up Please know that. I lovely add Matthew and Michelle with all of my heart of Jehovah's willing. I would like to see all of them again in the resurrection to have a second chance. I don't plan to live very much longer, just long enough to kill as many of the people that greedily sought my destruction, you should kill. If you can mark or Barton, I mean Hon. And narcissistic
still blaming everyone else, and you know convinced of of his value, but in any echo oddly, the suicide note left by Charles Whitman in the the Texas Tower Massacre in Austin in one thousand nine hundred and sixty six, which is one the other chapters here, where he says: yeah, I'm killing my mother and my wife, because I just don't want them to be embarrassed by you know what I'm about to do so, yeah kind of strange and narcissistic yeah. So it's very you know it's interesting that all of these people it seems to have major psychiatric problems, to say the least, but at the same time,
is that you know I've never read more stories where that's a mix of it's almost textbook psychopathic killer as well. But with these other psychiatric elements, it's for me not knowing any of these characters, it's fascinating. The killers are fascinating, but you've included the victim stories. A lot of authors and rules especially noted for including a lot of the victim stories. But in this particular case you do really have. You know really good fine examples of people that have there's never. Europe has never full recovery, obviously, some very very strong characters and strong examples of survival instinct. With these people magnitude. Yeah and like I said if they can come out on the other side of those crimes and and regain their equilibrium and
find their way back to some place, that kind of looks normal. Then those of us who've had divorces or or losses of loved ones or loss of a job, any any number of lesser disappointments, then I think there's hope for us and that's what I'm hoping is that these people stand as an example of what's possible. They are not perfect people, they haven't. In most cases have not returned there not whole again sure, but I'm not sure. I think it would be a myth if you, if you introduce me to somebody who who went through what these people had gone through and said,
but it has absolutely no impact on his life anymore and he doesn't even think about it and he's perfect he's better than he started. Then. I would dis believe that, of course course. It was interesting about who is it that the bread Dune ASP the year trying to write a book on, did actually get the book price for two thousand and published in two thousand and six so again, some some more closure. If you know a better word anyway, at least people being able to to mount such a. You know endeavour to be able to write about there ordeal and get that somewhat out of the way at least a little bit off their chests. So yeah happened in a couple of the cases to Charles Cohen always wanted to write a book, but it never did. He felt he didn't feel personally that he could and he was hoping somebody would come along and do it but Brent Doonan,
Write a book Suzanna Gratia Hupp from the Luby's cafeteria killing wrote a book. Tariffs ass. Bender Terry do baroque, who was in Need Bluebell Mass murderer, the family, mass murder in in the Caribbean or in in the Bahamas. She wrote a book.
Came out I just last year, and I think there is say us the therapeutic value to that show no date in in. In all of these cases, I think they had to spend a little bit of time, trying to see things through different, a different prism and in it helped them so well end up Missus Jenkins, who survived the Heath High School, shooting one of the early school shootings before Columbine. She also wrote a book and an end in each of those four cases. I think they did a pretty good job of telling the story more or less fairly to all people involved, and I think that that that's pretty that's pretty notable when you
been shot or paralyzed or you know traumatized the way they were sure now tell us about the survivor in the Texas Tower in and in nineteen sixty six, as you were speaking before, I got us often, but of attended to arrive. Inaccurate Roland LP is a young man who just graduated from it, wasn't a seminary, but it was a religious oriented. Lutheran school in Wiscconsin, he was the son of a Lutheran minister. He kind I thought he wanted to be a minister, or at least was being sort of urged in that direction, but he also wants to see the world. He had the sense of adventures for the MID nineteen. Sixty sin and hee hee hee hee thinks there's a big world out there. He wants the seas,
so he joins the peace core. He graduated from college in Wisconsin and join the peace core he's assigned by the peace core to teach English in a little iranian school. In order to be able to do that, he has to go to some training at the University of Texas. That last, I believe, six or eight weeks. So he travels to Austin and he's doing the courses when, on August, first, one thousand nine hundred and sixty six Charles Whitman climbs the Texas Tower and begins this spree. Does ninety minutes pre of shooting anybody. He can from the tower famous one of our most famous.
Mass murders Roland is with a couple of friends walking down the street when, when he did, they hear what they think are firecrackers or backfires, but it did it's just it registers, but it's not a concern at one point: the friend who's walking that there are three walking abreast down the street, the boy in the middle Kind of suddenly stops and looks down at his hand, which is just struck by a bullet nearly ass. It breaks his wrist and nearly severs his hand, and you can imagine what what has just happened. You know they don't know, but very quickly. More shots are fired, an a couple of them hit Roland Ann
and they scramble to safety ultimately get out of the line of fire and and never really knowing what's going on a day, don't know, there's a man in the tower shooting their red, then they know that some shooting is going on, but they don't know really what's happening or why they would be in the middle of it and they don't see anything Ulta, please take into the hospital where he recovers from his wounds. Oddly in room that overlooks the Texas Tower and, of course, by this he knows what has happened. It's during that week, recovering from Newsweek. Means that rolling decides that that maybe he does want to become a minister after all and not because he's afraid not because,
Somehow Whitman has has changed his view of the world old or anything like that other than he. He sees that he wants that. He has a value that he wants to help people like him so. And he returned to his constant, where he becomes a minister, a Lutheran minister and and also now a college professor, you know in a different religious school. So in that case we have. You know this in cow, with a killer changes the course of his life. And gives him purpose? We don't necessarily
see that in all of those cases where they're just kind of scrambling to get back to some sense of normalcy. In his case it I made it seem to inoculate him with a sense of purpose, which was interesting to me. Absolutely. Now, if we could, because I'd like to get a few of these stories, just the outline of these adjustments- amazingly amazing- go through all of them with don't have enough time, but I was especially stricted by the evil on the front porch Diane, Alexander and the serial killer, Derrick, Todd Lee again a little more well known case, but still not so well known to a lot of people either tell us about Diane, Alexander and the serial killer. Derrick Todd Lee Ugh
Dan was a nursing student, black woman in one of the outlying towns around Baton Rouge. This particular summer up a serial killer broke, had had sort of risen to the surface in the back Mirage area and in law, largely well actually exclusively been attacking white women, uh task force that was set up to catch him presumed. He was a white killer, white serial killer because for a lot of reasons one is or so few non white serial killers and because serial killers ten to attack items within their own race. So so they made the point
junction that it was a white serial killer and their off looking in there in in that world. Diane, whose black but very fair skinned, looks white actually from a block away, is his home from classes is preparing lunch for her son. When a black man appears on her porch and knocks on the door, she answers the door and he he has a story he's looking for someone who lives in the neighborhood and he's Boston. She doesn't know who he's talking about nieces well, can I come in and make a phone call and she's reluctant to do that and but before before, she makes a decision one way or another storms in, and he attempts to rape and kill her son coming home early,
something that he hadn't counted on startles him and he runs away ultimately, DNA that he leaves behind is what links him to her, but it also links him after quite awhile to the serial killings that have been happening. So now we got the whole. The whole situation has been upended and the cops now know who they're looking or they just don't know where he is. And he is an elite. Dear tat leap ends up, you know new in the sort of B list of american serial killers is frightening and a lot of legends grow up about him. He he he never did it, but it was one of the myths going around was that he could lured these women out of their homes by playing
recording of a crying baby at their front door. Didn't really that didn't happen, but it showed how frightened and how desperate for information the citizens were. There Diane becomes a star witness in the trial against Derrick Todd Lee he's convicted of one of the killings, I think and sentenced to die and he's on death row now in Louisiana waiting. I made a request to do an interview with him, as I did with other surviving killers and in all of these cases, with their families, and I spent a few years since I did this, but I think the tide. While I did talk to several of them, none of them really wanted to be interview,
which is a whole other interesting thing. You know, families of these killers are their victims to they go through some of the same traumas, and yet they have two two added one. Is that day did they suffer this? four stigma and that if they had something to do with it, a kind of a social stigma, the other one is it there there torn between defending their relative and condemning you know, so they dared their due doing what family does do in trying to be on on on the side of the relative, but at the same time is very difficult for them say. Well, you know this man who annihilates twenty three people is just misunderstood.
So they struggle with that which is kind of interesting in that that's, you know, that's a kind of a sidebar, but I did try to do an interview with Derrick Todd Lee and he's never spoken to. Anyone on this case he's never spoken even nice thing to his his defense about whether he did or he didn't, but that he was lives, they say largely convicted by DNA. So I guess that spoke spoke volumes. Do you think that these some of the killers was right? The reason for these some of these killers to not agree to be interviewed, based on your perspective, for this book, where the was there any did they have any indication the unique perspective that you were going to include in the book or it was there any- could see the family not wanting to continue with this, because there's no real
upside for them. Having another story about their their exact family members, you saw what is was already was it was that part of the reason why some of these killers wouldn't agreed to be interviewed? I'm sure it was now there aren't that many there was at time. Howard unreal was still alive, but but shielded from me by by what we call any what what is called in the United States, the HIPAA rules, which are privacy rules that protect patients. Information in his case, the state of New Jersey used those rules too to shield him from any contact. In fact, when I asked about doing an interview, their response,
we can't even tell you if somebody by that name is in our care. So that's that's a non starter directly Lee was is remains still alive, but again, no no response on the interview request and Michael Carneal, who was the Heath High school shooter. I also asked for an interview with him and again was just in TAT. It wasn't denied just wasn't. I didn't get any response so, like I say in most of these cases, in most mass murder,
This is the killer doesn't survive anyway, so it's kind of a rare and in in a very much Cobb's or way it's a gift that you're Lacheneur survived in Tucson. If we, if we ever hope to really understand these people, we ve gotta be able to talk, to people like him sure, certainly yeah, and the thing is to that. You might not have been able to speak to these killers, but it wasn't. There was a wealth of information as there is about the killers and not so much, obviously above the victim. So you you really but the information that is this unique perspective. It's you still get these in medical stories, because everyone, as you pointed out your book, really we know of the killers names, because the killers captivate our imagination. Even though there are people that have empathy for victims, it see
in all fictional accounts and even in true accounts that we really know who the killers are were a little more fascinated about the killers and there murderous ways rather than the victim and what happens to them after and their welfare right in and there the actors. Are there, the there? The gas in the engine, they're, the ones making things happen, these victims, whether survive or not, are being acted upon generally.
And any knees in delivered from evil. I'm I'm looking at what happens now after win win those victims and survivors now have to become the actors they have to take charge and make something happened in their lives, or they will simply just stop and die where they stand, so that its it's that transition for them from being d, the target to being To being the catalyst for a change in their life, and certainly with this book, you have given these victims a voice like I have not read in most books. It's then you do hear about the victim, but not in the context of such a tale of survival, so you've given a voice to some real,
the strong characters. That happened to be very, very strong and resilient survivors of these incredible crimes, and you deaf really given a voice to these people and and and in the process, offered a unique perspective for the trooper fan it's always looking for something a little bit different and it's certainly this book provides that so graduations to on Facebook. Thank you very much. Thank you much. So yes, I want to thank you very much RON for a fascinating interview about incredible book, delivered from evil and. I want to know, what's your name project or what what's on the agenda for you, I know you're busy, prolific, others. You know it looks proliferate I protest here, but you know I I might I'm
during a project in which I am sure you know, explore the passions of a few cold case detectives who just have latch that called tasty tax levy of investigators, of police, type of historical of journalistic type, who have asked on to one percent your case and can't let go some of them to their into their retirements eyes, certainly many of them for decades, I'm fastened by that kind of passion, but I'm all so looking at maybe taking a little a break from the true cry: men now letting my subconscious refill a little bit and doing a few other projects that debt term- I am you know that will. Please me. I have a book coming out in the fall called the sour toe
cocktail club, which largely takes place there in Canada. It's it's a row trip memoir about this, ordinary journey I took With- might teenage son to Dawson in the Yukon territory in our that to the to the Arctic Beyond where no it's about a father in the sun trip, but we went up there basically to test ourselves against the famous sour to cocktail, which is a drink into which they drop a mummified human to well, you Canadians know how to I don't even know anything about it, so I guess I bet find out about that. Anyway. I felt very. Letting their rights, or. Thank you very much for that. Yes, I just one Tell people they've been listening to RON Francel delivered from evil, true stories of ordinary people who faced monstrous mass killers and survived delivered from evil. Thank
very much RON for a very great interview and peering are my little program. Thank you very much and have a great evening. Thank you for having me Dan. Thank you have a good evening. Goodnight! Don't I know you listening to the programme to murder the more shocking killers in true crime, history and the others that have written about them. Good night. Welcome to Sherwin Williams, so I can get forty percent off paint ts and forty percent stains. You bet hearty Tam O party time, the color three gallons in party time. Please you got it ask Sherwin Williams October eighteen through 21st and save forty percent on paints and stains with sale prices, starting at two thousand three hundred and nine. Only at your local Sherwin Williams store retail sales. Only some exclusions apply see store for details.
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.