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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killer crime, history, room murder with your host journalist and author Dan. This is Nancy good evening. Nine of the most controversy all violent crimes in America's history are re examined in these compelling stories of true crime. Doctor Samuel Mudd set John Wilkes Booth's broken ankle,

but was he actually part of the larger conspiracy to assassinate president? Abraham Lincoln did Lizzie Borden really murder her own parents in Massachusetts was admitted jihadists, Zachary moussaoui. Really involved in the terrorist plot to destroy the World Trade Center on September eleven two thousand and one in a series of provocative, an eye opening true crime investigations, author Fred, Rosen, revisit some of the most shocking and Torias crimes in America over the past two centuries to determine listen for all. Did they really do it applying logic and technique? With modern criminology, while re examining the crime scenes official police records in the original courtroom, testimonies of witnesses and the accused Rosen Floors, nine infamous crimes that rock the nation and the verdicts that were ultimately handed down from Ethel and Julius Rosenberg's execution.

For that reason to the kidnapping and killing of the Lindbergh baby to the Klu Klux Klan slayings of three civil rights workers in Mississippi to nine hundred and eleven. The alleged perpetrators get another day in court as Rosen calls into question the circumstantial evidence and cultural context that may have determined guilt or innocence in each case. The book that we are featuring this evening is: did they really do it with my special guests author and journalist, Fred rose and welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing this interview. Fred, Rosen Dan It is, as usual, a privilege to be on the radio with you. You are assured the best. Thank you Fred. Thank you very much. It is always a great pleasure and fans have been clamoring for another little bit of Frozen. So here we have you practice fine offering she is

any normal women. I'm available, sorry I'll, let you know uh I'll. Let them know here, let's get right into this, because we got a lot to cover your you. We wanted to talk about another, a something that you're working on it you're very excited about another. What one wants was thought to be just a normal death is now, and you have discovered some information. So in the after of the first hour we'll be talking- about what has been very important and what you've been working on. So, let's leave that little bit of suspense for the audience and let's get to

did they really do it err? What was what was the criteria that you used? What was the? How did you choose these stories, and why did you want to use these stories? What did you want to convey in these stories? Well, that's a great question or I I first of I love history, and this was an opportunity to you. She was right. My skill set the current term to go back and take a look at famous cases in american criminal history and take a look at whether these individuals, who, who were convicted of of of murder, actually had done it, and so what I was doing here was, I was trying to take a look at those we are. Are

He felt there was some doubt or some doubt had been uh put into the the equation by others, and so I figured you know, and actually what are we doing here was. I was sort of following a little bit on what my friend and fellow was a journalist Gerald Posner done in case closed, which is the use of contemporary forensics and so forth, and and and and of current investigative techniques, to take a look at some at at at the at the guilt or innocence of these individuals, and, to be quite frank, a lot of this was stuff that I'd heard about it as a kid like the civil rights workers,

you know that I grew up with and the rosenbergs for example. I I lived in book one my mom, almost my entire life, and every time I would go past the funeral home with their bodies, we're taking my dad, would say: edgy Freddie, that's with the rosenbergs were taken. So that's not sort of you know stays with you. So it was a combination of both personal. Understanding of what it occured and, at the same time, in the case, for instance, of Zacarias Moussaoui stuff that soaker on it's me it's relevant and one this problems. I feel that goes on and in criminal investigations, and please bring in on this. Is that two wash and were we're very journalists included

we're very we're anxious to to put worst possibility and somebody without really doing the proper investigation, an especially using history to take a look at and in the case of Doctor Samuel Mudd, I mean I was astonished to find out that President Carter had been asked the card and ham I mean I couldn't believe it. You know, you know

and so one of the scenes in the book for me is how the past the sex, the present and how these cases that you think are back there. The body they're not back there, they're still they're still right here and it. You know certain cases now. Obviously other cases like if we were talking about Bundy, for example, you know I I certainly would leave that to my friend Kevin. So all of them I was reading about it extensively. I mean that's a different kind of saying Gacy, but these are individuals on the quote: we're going with some doubt about the guilt or innocence. So I was looking for the best cases like it's fine, where I could use my skills

call. Anne and just dells, take a deep dark red. You know you know what I mean right. Why don't you tell us, because you do a part, one and part two twice in the book, and we will just talk about that when we need to, but we talked about the nine infamous cases so tell us just very, very briefly what each shifter of those nine cases are and then we'll get to. I think I'd like to start with with the Lizzie Borden CASE yeah, and so this describe describe all the cases that you do cover and then well, let's talk about quite a wild case. The Lizzie Borden case sure Doctor Samuel Mudd was convicted by

by the Lincoln assassination uhm. What do we call it that it was a military jury? With last time, the United States had a military tribunal, that try to civilian before the twenty, the 21st century. Regarding the prisoners in Guantanamo and so Samuel Mudd was convicted of not only setting John Wilkes Boots ankle after he shot. President Lincoln, but also being Volved, in theory, see to kill him, meaning he knew what was going to happen. Then there's Lizzie Borden, who of course killed her parents. That title is called forty title that chapters forty wax of trouble. Well, I was up all night now, one Dan and uh

that's an infamous case- and I I knew that I had to take a look at that one, because one of the first cases. Never worked on murder cases involve parasite, and so I'm very familiar with Paris, sorry that I need to take a look at that. Then there was you who killed Mary Phagan, which is about legal Frank who was a jewish. Factory, employee and Georgia, who was convicted in nineteen fourteen of killing uh can you roll factory worker, and that was a personal one, because I'm jewish. And I eventually discovered that legal Frank is the on each you ever convicted of murder and was then Hanina by the Ku Klux Klan, and that was in a way personal. Then I went to the what

who friend, who was Bruno Frame regarding Bruno Richard, helping who was convicted of killing the Lindbergh baby again. Another very very, very big case and, of course, as you go through this stuff, what you find is that it's the stuff in the periphery that gets really interesting. You know not just the case but in in this in in the in the in Greta Richard Help in case he's convicted of killing Charles Lindbergh's child, and I didn't know what happened to Lynchburg after which, like then, there is a bullet for pretty boy which is about pretty boy Floyd famous outlook from the nineteen thirties, who was convicted of being an op all with a rat at the Kansas City Massacre, which involves a chilling government agents and that that one would I did Bih cause I'd, never written about any of the outlaws. You know like Bonnie and Clyde and so forth, then the atomic Spies Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. That was really interesting. One becaus-

it uh. As I mentioned earlier, they they were buried from a funeral home on Flatbush Ave in Brooklyn, where I come from. And I was really interested in you know, did you know, obviously, did they re we do it because they got death for alleged turning over atomic secrets of the atomic bombs of the Soviet Union, and what was real interesting in that case was that which they have to their KGB handler. After the Soviet Union collapsed in late 1990s, he went public with information regarding it. Then we get to the murdered civil Rights workers- oh my god, this one. I remember this as a kid three civil right workers, Cheney, Goodman and Schwerner were killed by the K. Kk in Philadelphia Mississippi an I never ever saw it as most people would that

anybody would ever be convicted of murdering them. Well, it happened in two thousand and five, so I needed to cover that did not then, of course, the Boston Strangler Albert Desalvo there had. I didn't know this until I got into with it there was there was speculation. There was more than one dude who it's tr wrangle, these women in Boston. That was a movie by the way late, 60s, probably the best performance ever by Tony Curtis? Believe it or not, he played out to salvo. Then I have to go. I have to do as Zacharias in the salary, the 20th hijacker. He was allegedly the 20th hijacker in the nine Slash eleven plot, but as I discovered there was evidence to prove that he wasn't And then I was able to then in the second part of the book, a deal with in the present day, Samuel Mudd

being a his relatives. His grandson, not great grants on his grandson, asked President Carter to pardon him and I'm going what the heck is. This is that I missed this story, so you gotta get it to that and then and then the last chapter is the The murdered civil rights workers, part to where EDGAR Ray Killen was tried for being the grand Kleagle who actually set them up and make sure that they were murdered? So what I was most interested in was how the path effects the present and amazingly how a crime could occur. My god, one thousand eight hundred and sixty five Samsung models convicted of killing being involved in the plot to kill President Lincoln and Boom one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight Jimmy Carters asked the pardon am excuse me: how do you miss this stuff? So I said I gotta deal with this stuff.

And that's how I picked the stores. No, this is examined. I don't know where I stand. Did I confessed us yeah? Yes, sir, all those great you covered, you covered amazing x, history and and all kinds of cases all unique. Let's talk about the Lizzie Borden because she was trounced not guilty, and yet you apply that give these moderate forensic techniques and looking at the ever, it's again and very much very important to to look at the the time that this occurred and, like you say, Patricide, who knew so? Let's talk about Lizzie Borden and This murder of their parents and how on earth you talk about one of the attorneys, I'm jumping ahead, a little bit that you said he the Gotti Bailey of his time. So I'll get you to explain what was it about him? That was so F Lee Bailey Ish.

So let's first talk about just a little bit about the murders themselves and what police found what they were working with and then the very, very interesting trial that ensued, yeah, well, what happened was this is this: is Massachusetts Fall River MA and what happened was the bodies of repair wood discovered they were for lack of a better term. They were axed to death they were murdered with an axe and the the work across the prosecution. Of course, look dad has motives money. The fact that she wouldn't have you know these. These were pretty well off people and so

They looked at it. From that point of view, you know the the two classic motives for murder, our money and sex. You know sex drugs rock and roll. You know you can put it anywhere. You want, and uh an I was curious about it be cause. You know we here, you know. This is like one of those cases you hear about over the years and there's only the talk about it. You know, I think, there's you know, there's even some rhyme, you know Lizzie Borden, twenty one, max or something I don't remember, but so you know that's the sort of thing that that a track

ask me to say: ok, well what really happened? Anas I looked into it. The first thing that hit me was that uh, this is overkill overkill, meaning after the person is dead. You keep going well. That is a classic uh mo for Parasite, which is the murder of a parent, and that occurs because of certain reasons we If you want me to talk about at some point, I'll talk about but um and she had two very well known, influential attorneys working for her a guy named George Robinson, was former Governor Mass choose it's Andrew Jennings, why did do described as the F Lee Bailey

leave his day. In other words, this is a dude who always took on cases regarding people who Will behind the eight ball and had a tremendous record of getting them off and by the way this is the late 1890s and again, that's the other part that I find so interesting because so much of this book, as well as uh as well as our history goes from, the lady to 90S into the 1900s into the 20th century, and so I really wanted to look at Lizzie Borden. Find out if she had done it and why? The motive, of course, is always all important and what the evidence was to show that she had done it versus the evidence to show that she didn't at the crime scene.

Self there her excuse was that she was doing some work, something to do with candles in the barn yeah. She was and came back into the home, and then there was a course her mother was Bush or slaughtered and her father was slaughtered, but they're on different levels or different floors. Yes different Florida. Yet you talk about you talk about modern forensics, but for one thousand eight hundred and ninety two. I was surprised that they did do some due diligence there. In terms of later, there was a determination, the importance of finding out who got killed. First, tell us that that relevance. Well, they wanted to find out. You know who beat the father was downstairs, is where it's sort of entry get sort of interesting, that the father was downstairs on, like a couch and and

when he was discovered, nobody ever sort of going up stairs to see what was up steers and when they went one eventually they did. They discovered that MRS Borden had been killed, and so the question then becomes Who was killed first and why and I go back, I have to keep going back to the motives, because what the police missed was the overkill. They were much too interested in her Uh, what do you call an inheriting money? You know and Lizzy told there was a doctor that showed up named Boeing or Bowen AN, and he told this dude that that Boeing discovered the body of the.

A Mister Borden downstairs, and was he then said? Well, I do not know where mother is. I have been out to the barn and the servant was on the third floor. Okay and then it takes a little. You know a couple minutes later before they find MRS Borden and then it's a question of okay. You know who died first and how did it happen but Lizzie kept maintaining uh, I'm I'm seeing Lizzie like she's, my buddy, you know, but was he kept, maintaining that she was someplace else when all of this occured and but all in later wrote about MRS Borden, that's the her skull heads stayed almost exactly the same damage is her husband by what appeared to be the same weapon and he wrote. I think she

must have been engaged in making the bed when the murder appeared with an axe or hatchet and made a slash in her. After that, actually turned and the feeling I love that word chopped her head as if it had been a cake of ice. One blow killed the woman, but the murderer chips on hacking at her to leave as well satisfied that she was dead. That is that simple. That's the tip If it's a robbery, you don't do that. You just kill the person, you take the money and you leave why the overkill and that's what state in my mind as I kept looking at this case now, you talked about this doctor and what he had done as well? Dr Bowen is he had determined through the contents of the stomach that who had died first, and it was quite a the time between one murder in another yeah. It was one of the crucial things that trial and again

Lucky sheds this F Lee Bailey Type lawyer, because there was also testimony from an Eli Ben's, a pharmacist said that a woman had come in and tried to bottle I'll a bottle of hydro sign, again, acid yeah, and she said you want to kill some moss because so they had this kind of evidence that and other evidence that there was something. Maybe She had tried to actually poison her parents yeah have a dry run for murder. Yes, so tell us how it proceeds at trial. How does Lizzie Gordon get a jury convinced that she's not guilty with all this damaging evidence. I know they don't know anything about patricide. They think that this is the again that you describe the fiend

So tell us more about trial and and how she is descended. Well, the the the the point here is that first off this kind of a crime, I was extremely easy words extremely rare. It's still extremely rare. Our child killing her her or his parents is an extremely

situation. The second point is that there is no direct evidence that implicates Lizzie Borden. Thank you. You're you're, really sh yeah, you you, you you, you have circumstantial stuff, but there really isn't very much there. I mean she's, saying she was someplace else. Now there was a witness that later said that she wrenched out some some garment that one of the decedents had been wearing. I think it was hers. I don't remember, but here it is she she was yeah. Lizzie was wearing a faded light, blue calico dress and

he was washing it, and somebody saw her doing that and she said I'm going to bring the stress it's all covered with paint. Well, of course it was blood, so you know, you've got you've got a a situation where you certainly have some circumstantial evidence, but you don't have any direct ever and, most importantly, the motive, the mode of the mode of the Motiva go back to that any number of times? Why would a woman want to kill her father and her mother now again the most obvious one would be: oh, I'm going to inherit a lot of money. Well, if that's the case did the LA murders in all of our countries, but that is not the reason that this occured.

And- and that is not the reason why this crime occured, so you know I was really into trying to determine one. Her motive was and under Fortunately, the police did not look into any possibility that she's been abused, buy one of both parents which again would have been a very rare occurrence in those days, and it's still pretty rare today. Dan, I mean sure you know what happens that you know cops. Don't generally look at this stuff Then there you know you know they're like anybody else. Whatever is the easiest way to go there going to go. Well in this trial was very interesting. To me is that this Alice Russell testified that about you mentioned the burning of the dress, wanting to burnt address that

paint on it was none of that evidence that calico dress was not didn't come forward. They, the jury, came back with guilty. She ended up as you write. The book bought a new house with her sister Emma and she became a big patron of the arts Yes, you say in your investigation. You found evidence of Molestation as a more it makes. A lot of sense now, of course, were a hundred and something years later, yeah. Really that's what you found yes and- and you know the the lg this is. This crime is consistent with other parasites. And when you look at parasite as a crime, there are always certain a common unless it's a self defense situation, which is rare.

What is always these cases, this abuse, and so we have a situation where you know The the the the the the the the the the murder was not the nicest person in the world, and he does what the Father, because it's almost a cipher, I make sure I'm speculating regarding the abuse. But if you use a modern day profiling, you have to say that that is the the overkill is in. Kids of parasite, because in every parasite case you can find in contemporary true crime literature you're going to find that the end of

jewel or individuals were abused, and I don't think there's any doubt that that occur here. Part of the problem is that I'm for it we're talking about. You know it's sort of like it's the same thing like last time. I was on your show. I talked about how Doctor Willie Bliss murdered James Garfield. Well, who would ever say the doctor, would murder a patient, ok, who would ever think that a child would murder their parents. There's gotta be a motive for it, and I am convinced that she committed this crime, because her day Eddie molested or either physically or emotionally. Now, let's move on to another case that a lot of people like you'd mentioned Tony Curtis did

this, I believe, Academy Award winning performance. If not One of the highlights of the hey, hey, nine get into my wheelhouse. With the Oscar nominated Yeah, so I I put performance is his daughter is listening in uh. You know Jamie Lee, he it's the 19th. I wanna see about sixty eight. The night. Something like that. You know and it's a great place. You know- it's one of the earliest serial killing faces that received an enormous amount of publicity and, of course F, Lee Bailey was the dude who defended him an in fact saved his life yeah. It's amazing

amazing, I didn't give them a it really yeah. I mean it's really something you know I mean you know it's fun, isn't it funny? How Bailey shows funny he shows up in a lot of cases. You know obviously the Oj Simpson case. You know heluva good, hey, listen, God forbid, wherever in APA problem and we needed attorney. I don't care. How old is I want? You know yeah, I guess so yeah. Let's talk more about this one thousand nine hundred and sixty two to nineteen sixty or you talked about the advent of serial killers and profiling and again work a little more innocent time didn't know anything about this sort of thing and we're in the Boston area. One woman, Anna Slizers is murdered, but then, shortly after that, thirteen women in the Bay Boston area in eighteen months and the thing that you said that strangled yes and the thing that was.

The most shocking for the city, the police and everyone was that these were not people that seemed to maybe live a dangerous life and have something like this coming to them. Possibly these were middle age, maybe even elderly. These were not prostitutes this no service city, frightening city. So this was so tell us. You talk about how the murder stopped and then eleven months after the murder ceased Albert Desalvo On a completely different charge, right tell us a little bit about Albert Desalvo a little bit about his background before we talk about his what he tells police incredibly well, the salvo was born in key Massachusetts on September. Third, one thousand nine hundred and thirty one growing up. He was rest on more than one occasion on a solar battery chargers.

Growing up again, he was his behavior was very inconsistent. Our times he was cool it times, she'd be a badly his. His mother divorced his dad. But of course that's you know, that's just you know, that's part of it, but obviously, if that was you know as the most important aspect, you have a lot more this stuff going on, but that's not the case when he was Seventeen who was drafted into the army enjoy. You know he loved. It became a specialist e five, but he gets busted back to private for failing to obey a superiors. Orders, and he

it's a woman in West Germany and they fell in love and married? Guess why fifty five? He leaves the militaries arrested some fondling, a young girl, the charges dropped. Then his first child Judy is born and she has congenital pelvic disease uh and after that his wife avoids having sex without, but at all costs. Could she doesn't want to bring another child into the world with that problem, but what's happened, thing is the salvo an. I don't relate to this. Maybe I don't know. Maybe there's some people that do, but he has this insatiable sexual urge. He needed sex at least five or six times a day. Uh yeah,

find it someplace, and so the next thing you know he becomes a burglar and, of course, burglary is, is a crime? It's just it's not just a physical crying of you know a lot of yeah, I'm stealing stuff, but it's a salt in peoples- you know with a live, no pun intended yeah. Here it is Berkeley. You know it's, it's a it's a sexual crime because it involves an invasion of a person's privacy. So you get all these arrests for burglary and so forth, and so on. So we had this long criminal record yeah. It he's extremely well liked by the people are now on his wife and a edition white finish circus on a lot of them. Is it co workers? Why, from like bloody, sixty and he's also a braggart he likes to exaggerate his achievements? Are you

gets arrested for breaking into a house. I mean this stuff goes on and on and on and on so there's something going on in this guy psyche. That makes him engage in burglary and again, obviously uh? You know this whole business about having to have sex zillion times a day, western straining wings began and and the first yeah it's actually the the second quarter of nineteen sixty two tax? That's the next thing that happens, and you know the police. Of course, don't know who this is. As you mentioned, he is caught for some burglaries he's identified as the as a certain type.

Of criminal, but yet again what was interesting is sex crime, home invasion. I never really read it put that way, which is great, that it's done that way makes a lot of sense. You know you know like yeah, you would never think of it. Would you can I mean it's like you just don't think of it as You know a sexually oriented crime, but that's the weight. Criminologist look at it. You know. Novo the avoids prison, but also he when he does get this prison term. He gets eighteen month sentence 'cause. The judge sees that he's a good worker. He has a couple kids. He has. This relationship has pity on him. Two months you write two months after the eighteen months. That's when these strange These murders occur right, they'll, tell us what happens, because it's utterly

fascinating again. This is very, very unusual for him to be arrested on something else, really, no.

Pressure tell us about this confession. Well, this goes back. You know a lot of these serial killers. They are braggarts, they want attention uh and that's the way he seemed when he was arrested on this charge uh and he seemed more like a braggart than a murderer and he tells his attorney. What would you do if someone gave you the biggest story of the century? Talk about talk about before his time attorney says you mean the Boston, strangler and disable says? Yes, yes, and the attorney says you mixed up in this stuff. Did you do some of them all of a males?

he's trying to make money he's trying to make money. He figures: if he confesses to this stuff. Not only does he does he get credit for it he's make a lot of money. And then what happens is the judge sends the salvo for Saikia chick evaluation. The cops are still not convinced these that these easy ease, the dude, um and uhm and that's you know, and then uh uh. What happens is he he makes the acquaintance of the guy who his attorney is Lee Bailey. Ann Lee, Ann Lee, Bailey visits Albert Salvo in jail and Albert Desalvo says I

Well, I'm going to have to spend the rest of my life locked up somewhere uh, but I wanted to myself. For somebody who could write it. Maybe I could make some money from my family. This is way before its time and it's before the Son of SAM Laws, which, in the you know it states prevented criminals from making money, look their crimes. I think most of them have since been taken off the books um, you know, but so in any case when he, when he makes Baileys acquaintance Bailey's primary concern is keeping him out of the chair. You know, which was the way that people executed in those days and he barely question SAM and he becomes convinced because of the detailed this album gets and that he's the Boston strangler and that's when Bailey gives the Boston police access to this outflow

to ask him questions about the case and basically he's making a deal? Ok. Ok I'll, give you this guy, you can solve the cases You can't put him in the chair, it's gonna, be it's got to be life and do they renege on this deal? Do you mean they did? You know that the government yeah no, our our girls, they they did state decides to try to sell them four counts of breaking and entering. In other words, it's down. Barely tries to use insanity to spirit with prison, but the jury didn't see things so, in other words, he's he's not tried for the murders stride for breaking and entering, and it's

almost like you know you got a sort of wonder what's going on behind the scenes because for breaking entering the judge, why is it giving him life period. You know an Bailey later rights, and this is a direct quote. My goal to see the strangler wind up in the hospital with doctors. Doctors to try to find out what made him kill society is deprived of a study that might help that her other mass killers who lived among us waiting for the trigger to go off inside them pretty interesting. You know I mean that that you know, and you know you have to say that is a brilliant brilliant piece of defense work on the part of Mister Bailey, because what he did was it. He got a bad guy off the street. It was killing. People got him. Sentenced to life was hoping that

could get some care behind bars, but that doesn't quite happen because something else happens, hey that when he was when he was asked one of the most fast. Many things was when Dasilva was asked why he did all of this. He or he offered this re reason why he did what he did. Can you tell us what that is? Uh uh, jeez. I'm try, remember well, I I could stay. I could tell you because it what I'm, what I'm really when I wrote really and bone was was really profound, was that he said that he was just in

ordinary guy, not even a great looking guy, not really a smart guy, but he outsmarted a lot of really good rich smart people. He said yeah what was with the salvo. Basically it goes. It goes back to this. Obviously, the guys got problems with self esteem, so it goes back to that that he's got prob. With self esteem, and so what he's doing is ah suasion the sexual urges but at the same time he's getting a huge kick out of all the publicity surrounding this and. Yet again way ahead of his time? And then once he's he's he's so so he's got, you know, he's got that part of it. Those motives, you know the sexual stuff

plus he wants to make money off of it. For his family is very uh. First thing that way. You know, it sure is we're talking. I mean you don't find too many serial killers that you know really are trying to look out for their families and as we're talking about it, I you know the evidence which which saying that this guy had a conscience which is which is possible. You know it doesn't mean not every every single serial killer about in our killer is is, is is a sociopath, but this guy appears to have a conscience because he cared about his family, be clear about what happened to them, but at the same time, time he was trying to make up for these bad things. That apparently happened to him in his life is lack of self esteem and so forth, and so on and also eat

Not a good looking guy, as he says, but then again you know you go back to look most Us aren't movie stars. You know I was gonna say we don't look like Burt Lancaster, but that you don't back. Isn't it I'm sorry, I'm not gonna go to Tom Cruise. I can't stand them. Sorry, folks, but anyway you know he he's. You know where to put a guy like this, there's also the issue of power, the fact that he controls thanks. He controls women. So that's that is also very, very ascential to understanding the this individual's personality by the way you know this was another case is late, six

I remember it very well. I mean I I wish change your, but there's a lot of publicity about it. You know what I mean sure you add one more very interesting twist at the end. Is that one of the the victims Merry Sullivan the family dog, her up in two thousand, as you as you right, yeah, air and and to solve a was dug up in two thousand one. So tell us what the result of that dna tests was. Interestingly. Well it what it Dr James, Starrs professor of forensic Science at George Washington University, he's one of the screen, their friendship criminologist out there, and so what happens? Is they? This entered the body of

Mary Soloman one of his victims and of course they just date. They also object addition to your to samples body and they compared the dna. You know which, of course you couldn't do in the nineteen sixties because it didn't exist, and so the dna tests were performed on the corpses for comparison purposes. I have to shovel would rate the strangler. He claimed to be a forensic flipper. Well guess what it didn't match, in other words, Merry Solomon was raped by somebody else. So that is why we, needs to the supposition that there were copycats. So there was more than one Boston strangler, that's pretty damn interesting. Because it's very rare that you have a situation where

you get a bad guy and you can actually prove through forensics after the crime is committed that the guy didn't do it use. You know that just doesn't happen very often. I mean I can't even think of another instance where it does uh you know. Was he divorced that you know, and I talk about this obviously was either Boston. Strangler and I you know I get. My my my opinion is as far as you know what he did. But one thing is clear:. He didn't kill Mary Sullivan, so that's a victim that was stuff to him that he didn't do because Doctor STAR proved he didn't do it, which means that person could still be out there and remember you know, as I point out here and I'll, actually ask you about this in terms of How it works in the commonwealth, murder is the one crime in the United States. That has no statue

imitations, and I'm going to assume it's the same in the commonwealth of my correct, oh yeah, yeah. Well, there you go 'cause, we get out of oil from you guys. You know in case. Anybody doesn't know it Dan lives in France, just making it up breakfast, but you seriously seriously it's you know, you don't see this level of Cientific inquiry into this sort of thing, because it's too easy for cops the clearer case and say this guy did this. This guy did that so forth and so on and when you get a guy like James STAR, involve stars rather involved. I mean this guy. I think this guy also worked on oh yeah. If I remember correctly, stars also worked on trying to determine if the Sundance kid was buried in Bolivia.

Aka Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid, so you know you're really getting into not only heavy duty, dna testing, but real pros- and you don't see this happening in how often that we've seen that something like that happened in a serial killing case I mean I wrote about the DK, not nothing like that happened there. You know it's just too easy to pin them. You know you got five murders, pin it on the same guy. You know because you know the other thing you gotta remember is that anytime you get a guide life stars involved, you know, or any forensic specialist cost a lot of money You know, and also there's got to be a reason to do it. So if you're, you know in in a case like this, it's not it wouldn't be so unusual simply because the you know, you're talking about one of the most famous serial key.

Dealers in american history, but that's not going to happen every single time down the line. Wow you talk funny. We talk think about this, and I'm going she. Where are these people today? You know it's like. Wouldn't you know, I'm saying myself cheese, you know why we get these people involved in more cases. I'm sorry go ahead Now you do a two part, as I mentioned twice, and one of them is the in story of Victor rake killing, and this is Mississippi. So the is an amazing story issue you right because of the second part, what happens? Finally, in in a in a place that will never thought. It would ever see anything like that. We alluded to that Vicki Drake killing being arrested in the

21st century. So let's go back to August. Fourth, one thousand nine hundred and sixty four and talk about what those. What were the circumstances that these civil rights people basically know the story. But what were the circumstances that these workers were? down there, these three people, these three young men, were down. There what was the role of victory killing at that time? well killing, was cold the grand kleagle, which means he was the organize. Of the clan in in that in Philadelphia, Mississippi and purely by coincidence, I was thinking about this. I drove through Philadelphia, Mississippi Mississippi last week and, and you know I got out of there their assistance. I could to be honest with you.

Uhm. You know the it not much has changed in terms of the environment. Now, as I said, kill It was a it was an ordained minister, a businessman, a clan organizer. And what happened was Schwerner Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman with the three civil rights workers and what Nothing was Schwerner had been down in Philadelphia in the Philadelphia area is in your church and this is again and in six thousand and sixty four And what happened was the church was burned down by the KKK and he had visited that church and he's up in the n that some civil?

Rights conference, and he says: well, I gotta go down there and help those people now. So what he does is he goes with his buddy Cheney, who is a black dude and then elicit a kid named Goodman from Queens NY and Queens one of the boroughs of New York City and uh. He he goes. They go down there. They work for the Congress of Racial equality core and they go down in a in what he called station wagon. And Schwerner's already a target of the KKK thank you boy or goatee 'cause. You had a goatee, so He goes down there to help these people. You know basically he's going into Philadelphia Mississippi to offer support. Not a problem here is that you're dealing with the KKK you're dealing with violent individual

so he's going in there. These guys are armed. You know this is one thousand nine hundred and sixty four you know, it's the other way around these guys think that you know because they are supporting the constitution. Equal rights for african Americans that nothing is going to happen. Well, he goes down there and he's with the other two dudes and he's he's like he's somebody who, basically, the KKK, is put it out on their one again. So what happens? Is the local local deputy sheriff name? Ice purely by coincidence, sees this station wagon. Think, driven by Schwerner, Goodman and Chaney. Get this. He arrest the dudes and put some in

Gail claiming they were the ones to bring down the church, it's a lot. You know it's, it's you yeah. I got what you got a layup the end, because if you don't you'll go not and at that point at that point, chillin, the crank legal starts organizing to get these guys killed. Now they made it should have known that they were in danger, but they didn't you talk about a damn. Sorry, excuse me, sir. I'm sorry I enter a Forgive me that they'll go ahead from Brooklyn. I I I'm from Brooklyn. I interrupt too much. No, no! No go ahead. Go ahead. You were talking about that. This SAM Bowers, the imperial wizard, had called for Germans murder,

Murder is murder, yes, so how are they going to go about this an and who set this plan in motion and how? How did it come to fruition? Well, what happens is this got this dude Bowers is the head dude, let's just forget about using the K. KK names for these individuals he's the head, Dude, Mississippi, so the I it is, let's figure out a way. We got a big gotta. Okay, they don't want to get shorter for a while, now he's in jail and what they decide to do. What happens is is that Alan Grant recruits the younger guys to kill the three civil rights workers and so the second it's a

smart plot. You is, they warmed up re, releasing them and telling them okay. You can go back through. You know wherever you came from, but they fall on the other hand on and then at some point, the the the civil right, the the the the dunes. They have to decide at which road to take you know there's more than one rd in those days. The interstate highway system was certainly not completed. Now it is, of course, and so what happens is the idea? Is it supply this dude prices? The sheriff to supposed to SA and eventually not only does he shadow him, but he pulled him over a second time, so they

is that the first time is when he rests on the second time is when he pulled him over, and then he transports them to the place where they're going to die, and it's all been set up. The grants to the jury by by killing and the rest as they say, is history. If you, I can talk more about that. If you want, you know about what happens. Well. Sure 'cause killing basically has an alibi. They drop him off of his uncle's funeral yeah, Also, like you say he they control Mississippi, so they also control the police or certain tenants of the police at least, and citizens or sympathetic

in the state at that time has a lot of friends. You start the chapter with the discovery of the body, so it isn't long after that they discovered these bodies. So tell us about this investigation and sure what the police do with this information. Well, what happens is uh, and I I got to talk about it. Personally identify. If I can, when I was a kid. I remember seeing older son tv, you know an. I talk about it in the in the in the book where the the you know, here's anchors on the three networks. In those days there were only three networks, come on and they talk about the discovery, the body and what happens is after the civil rights workers disappear. The united,

state attorney comes in and they launch an investigation and It becomes a an investigation to find the bodies and using informants eventually find that the bodies have been buried in the earth and Damm are under tons of what he called a Of why I start the chapter with the blue flies swarming over the body and it's one after the other, so when they when they finally disinter, then you see this three uh and what's happening here is now. The next question is: how did they die.

And the local corner, he won't even say that they were shot. You know he was just a piece of crap quite frankly, but the private corner is brought in and they were able to determine that they were. The three of them were executed, uh couple of more big nut and so forth, and then it becomes a question of ok. This occured, the FBI, establishes its first office in the city. Yeah? I didn't know that by the way I always put, the FBI was all fifty states, but it turns out they didn't have an office in Mississippi, but her Herbert J Edgar Hoover excuse me, establishes an office down there and this of course, all of this stuff is chronicled in the movie. Mississippi

burning, pretty good movie and with Gene Hackman and Willem Dafoe, and so what happens is they they were able to determine the government fed that these individuals were executed gunshot, but you gotta problem. I like the same problem that exists today, which Murder is not a federal crime unless it's on a federal reservation, so the only thing you can charge them with is executed and therefore done denying them their civil rights and that's exactly what happens because the Gov the feds know they're not going to get any sort of conviction. Hell they're not going to get up there not going to get a prosecution in Mississippi at that time. So They decide that they're going to try them for denying these boots the civil rights and they put killing

Bauer and hope bunch of other guys on trial. But the deal is you're only talking a couple of years in jail, even chickens. If it and that's exactly what happened. You know a couple of them were convicted in a couple who get off. You know. Basically, it's a slap on the wrist for triple murder, yeah and killing isn't convicted of anything whatsoever. Is he no because he claimed that he had it pretty good alibi he claimed that he got some funeral and you got to remember that this dude was eight. That, I think, is a Baptist minister. So you know you've got that. You know there there you're on the court. Okay, how could a man of

be involved in a murder? You know it it's almost the same situation as after the man of God, molest children. You know the situation with you know with the spotlight, the movie spotlight. You know one in and Boston in the early two thousands, you know how how the archdiocese covered up molestation. Well, it's the same situation you know has has added a guy who's who's more. You know, answers to God do such a thing. Wow, you know maybe was not really serving God, so he gets a lot answer. You warmed up close work with by the by the late by the middle six

would be probably about six thousand seven hundred and sixty eight. You only get a couple of guys that are convicted and violating civil rights. They go to jail for three years and then it's all forgotten. I got it valued, something out of all the criminal cases that I can recall everything exposed you know, reading about whatever I never saw it. They got to solve this. Never I said, there's no way man they're going to solve this case. While I was warm, thank God, you know. What's incredible of then I didn't know was about this witness at that time now, name, James Jordan, who was an eyewitness to the killings, yeah Anet could imagine fearing the Ucl an assassination. This guy. I was heavily guarded by g men at that time. Yeah, but even though this guy, the stress, almost killed, this guy was hospitalized for hyperventilating. I collapse he was.

Taken out of the courtroom on a stretcher and then the third time we actually made it to the witness stand, and till I got it again like you said I gotta say one thing, though I gotta kick: are you saying, Jim and because you're, a canadian cool man very cool euro, but yeah I mean he this new. He he would you ever mix doesn't make sense. I mean this guy. Jordan is going to test online against yeah. You know a criminal conspiracy, you know a criminal conduct, you know today. You know it's interesting that we're talking about this thing up, because I don't a lot of people to really understand what the our

was of the Ku Klux Klan back in the day. Sure you hear about you know stuff happening today and you know they might protest here there, that's not what they did back. Then they killed people they lynched people. I mean you know it's a pretty awful situation, so Jordan was really scared that they were going to get him for good reason, because they they they they have the ability to do it because You're, not only talking about individuals, I'm going to use the term mobbed up, but hangers were were in government. You have the mayor, a judge, a governor There might be. They were all part of this criminal conspiracy. That's how power

pull the plan was back in the day. That's it's amazing when we talk about it now, just think that these individuals have this much power and it's for the credit of the government of our governments of Lending Johnson and J Edgar Hoover. So they went into bus. These guys. You write in the book that just to show you the state of affairs. At that time, the Judge Judge Cox gave each the an average of six years in federal prison and he said after sentencing they killed one nigger one due in a white and I gave them all what I thought they deserved yep. That was does the judge speaking. So now take you to the second heart, where, incredibly, as an old man, justice is served.

Well. What happens is it you know what happens is that is that, in the in the in the millennium. All what we have is a situation where cold case squad to form. If you look at old cases, that's number one number two. I want to be a lot of the southern state that right, not a lot, but the southern states we've had well known or infamous, rather infamous murders of like in Mississippi BAR and Ella Beckwith Old and double ACP leader, Medgar Evers and sixty three and ninety four and nineteen ninety four double back with his ears prosecutors. So what happens? Is the local paper, our goal, Clarion Ledger, and, and

Philadelphia, Mississippi and Mississippi attorney General Jim Hood: hey Porsche to prosecute the murder, the murderous of Schwerner, Goodman and Chaney, and the only to do so. Why is it that point if they can prosecute at the former deputy price and brother EDGAR Ray Killen? That's what it called, and so the idea is to is to decide whether Killen was responsible for organizing the KKK mop that so many years before committed these murders. Can I see you Know- and I think it's it's such a credit to Mississippi, they did this. You know that that they went into the millennium and they said we're going to make this right. So the second trial of killing began is eighty years old because June 15th, two thousand and five

and the guy. In a wheelchair, inhaling oxygen and I I actually wrote this no open flames would be allowed in. Court gee, I wonder why I wrote that hm one you know he was in the store. Last fall. Aren't you did. I say that I am radio and you know he he he was white arch, doubt cameras and so fourth and so on, and then out of the past. Oh, my God, out of the past, all these people come to test the

by against them and Schwerner's widow or non this reader Swarna Bender. She testifies for the prosecution and she starts talking in two thousand and five about the civil rights struggle in Mississippi thirty years now. I guess it would be no it's forty years before and what it was like, and she explains how she tell her husband at the time, went back to help these people and so forth, and so on and all of a sudden. You know you've got all these years, stripped away and showing since you could get away with it. You know he thinks he's going to get away because it's going to be the same thing as last time: and but what happens is the prosecution? Does a magnificent job.

They find a former meridian, Ms Cop and one Clansman named Joe Hatcher who testifies, kill him told him where the three young men will bear, and then you know the list goes on from there. But what's and then the relatives you know like Fannie Lee, Chaney testified James James, Chinese, mom, she's, and she testifies so and and- and you know, brilliant who is a former mayor of Philadelphia, Mississippi testifies good man.

Oh yeah right he's, he's he's a good man. Yeah excuse me yeah, it's good man. Just like! Oh, I don't know she glad Amir Putin he's a good man like the Ladimir Putin. Sorry I'll, try not to get political go ahead with killing with the brilliant for the prosecution or the good part of the prosecution is too is that they didn't want to have the uh idea that killing would be prosecuted for murder an if not overwhelmingly convicted of murder. He would have nothing and he would walk out in this would be just an exercise in futility. So what did they include in this as an option for the jurors? Well again, you know this is this is so interesting because it reflects on other cases that we see today, which is the prosecutor this,

but it's a bond for the base ship. So what he did was. He was a lot he was allowed to say say to the and then the jury. Ok, if you can't convict them on first degree, murder, you can convict them on manslaughter, which is a much lesser charge except. If you're convicted, if you're eighty years old and you convicted of manslaughter, let's say you get ten years for each each each each count that's thirty years. Well, that's a life sentence, and so the the state attorney General Jim Hood. He was

brilliant, I mean I don't know any other words to say he gave the jury that option and in fact what happened was the jury at some problems coming to a verdict, but eventually they convicted chillin of killing of I'm sorry of me. Manslaughter for Goodman, Chaney and Schwerner, and that's when and then the judge pronounced his sentence and essentially becomes a life sentence. And ironically, the judges name is Gordon His family was part of the con gay shun that killing used to service as a minister buddy, but this this cut, this judge does his job

I mean he does his job. I mean you know, that's why I'm sitting here in is sometimes we're talking. I sent it to myself. Where are these people today? You know like this reflects so well to me any Wanna stay Mississippi and also on on the ability of the american criminal justice system to bring justice in a case like this, and I just think it's wonderful, because you can't bring the individuals back, but you could certainly can settle it and that's exactly what they did in two thousand and five Anna course killers. Lawyers tried to appeal. The verdict, didn't didn't work and, as far as I know, I didn't check today. As far as I know,

do this still alive and in prison, which means he's going to die behind bars. Yes, incredible story, isn't it now? You know what it's really something. It's really something be cause. You know this was you know I have to tell you dinner, and this was a case that. It was under the skin of our of our entire country. You know what I mean. It was one of those things where Where you never thought it would. You know anybody would be held responsible and they did it and. Again, my hat is off to these people for what they did an and look what they did. They. They. They gave closure to the families of the proceedings and they they they. They they,

Golden Individual responsible. You can ask for anything more than that in a criminal justice system. It is a interesting evolution in Mississippi in the south and it's a message to the clan and people of that kind of mentality. So it is encouraging to say the least, it's very encouraging, especially today, when you read about how you know the clan has had the ability to rise at various points in our history, you know what I mean. You know they rise at various points, and here is an and but what it shows is that good people will always went out and I'm not being naive.

This is just the way it is and by the way, one, the queen at one point in the nineteen twenties I said to myself with Danny, asks me about this item. I got a mention in the nineteen twenties the Klan trying to take over Oklahoma, true story. They try to take over Oklahoma. You know what the governor did not in the nineteen twenty. Oh, my god. He called in one of the greatest lawmen of the old West Name Bill Tillman. He worked with Bat Masterson in Dodge City and Kilman. Stop the clan.

The point now, in that case nobody was going to go up against Tillman 'cause. They knew he was a fast gun. Ok, but the point I'm trying to make is that the clan rears its head periodically. You are in our society and thank God, every time that happens, there's somebody to cut their heads off. Yeah for sure, certainly yeah, but you don't have anything, go ahead. I'm sorry go ahead. Now, I'm just going to say you don't have anything like that in Canada. Do you like the clan? No, we, but we do have racism here as much as Canadians would like others to believe that we live in a you know of a racial utopia. Here The dump all are we blame a lot of stuff on the aboriginals

everything will be just fine. If it's we put a certain face, public face and on the world stage. You know with power, well dancers and were administer minister with the ceremonies, and certainly Canada is probably treated their aboriginal peoples better than the American say better than Australia, but that doesn't mean much because they weren't treated well in those countries. So I think this same mentality. It's interesting when you look at how people perceive black people and Hispanics another Asians. When you look at INC in Canada to we you can't be immune. There are certain people that have this idea that ah white people. We are superior or inverse

please other races are inferior, and so I think that mentality still exists. Obviously some people persist with that idea and it continues everywhere. You see this, this is really that's really well. You know. That's really interesting. I'm going to have to do so. I'm going to have to go and do some reading on on king at in history. I I I have to. I have to plead a certain amount of ignorance I'm going to have to do it. You know every time I'm along with you, I always apologize for Ethan Allen. Trying We make Canada back in one thousand, seven hundred and seventy six. You know I I'm sorry about that you know. I don't know what the hell that it was thinking. Sorry gee, you think to carry new Hampshire. Now, all right, I'm sorry read you. You had said that you were working on an incredible case and also we were talking about

just before we did this interview about James Brown, who died apparently at seventy three on Christmas day. Two thousand and six all those in March. You know your name, you you you just you just broke their. We didn't mention is right: you broke your body hi there, okay, name's Brett, Brent, James Brown died. James Brown was taken to the hot change Brown. The godfather of soul, was taken to the hospital every Emory Hospital in Atlanta in two thousand and six on December, the twenty fourth with a drug overdose, he was getting heat. The doctor was able to.

Work work it out so that he was he. He was recovering the schedule to be released when he suddenly died Christmas morning December, twenty fifth, two thousand six- in other words it's almost ten years ago, and here's where it gets interesting. This family insisted no wall or Kansi be performed, so he does certificate, reads: cause of death pneumonia. Well, he cut his chin. And out of his will, leaving almost his entire state, approximately one hundred million dollars to the army field, which trust for underprivileged children. Well soon after he died, his family's used to break the will and they're successful the trust no longer exists, yeah

Though, allegedly the family has received a lot of money from the estate, it is never been probated now what happened? Was I've been working on this case for almost a year, and I just drove thousands of miles Oklahoma and back in in a vault in Oklahoma City. I saw the evidence that James Brown was actually murdered and I've contacted the United States attorney to let them know about my investigation and I'd like to write a book well sounds like people be interested in reading about that. For this interview I did do a little

bit of background on James Brown in terms of his death and, of course, the seven children and his fourth wife contesting the will and then just frittering away some money with this, because, but also that the all of Al Sharpton. All tell us a little bit about who was supposedly with him around him involved with him. Ok, what ok Al Sharpton there were there were. There was three people that James Brown was very close And one of them was the Reverend Al Sharpton, which I didn't know by the way until I started on this case, I had no idea the Reverend Al Sharpton second person.

Charles Bobbit, who was as good right hand. Man third person is Buddy Dallas Albert Buddy Dallas, who was his attorney and what happened was that in the in the room with him when he died, Charles Bobbit, which has already admitted publicly that he was in that room with him when he died. However, there was another individual who, whose name is never been made public and that's part of my investigation, who was there now Sharpton is, is not and

all in in in any of this, our youngest part of it about how we got the murder, the rapper now shop and has nothing to do with it, but he was a close confidante of James Brown and this is prior to the to wanted for all the case, so so brown. Every few know Brown had a problem. He he he was sent to PCP right and so, but the most important aspect of this is this: after James Brown dyed, his family insisted no, autopsy, be performed, and I can say that with a surety that if it was performed and his body currently

resides on one of his kids has. Form in South Carolina and it's in it's in it like what he called a muscle, Liam sort of a makeshift mausoleum. He was embalmed. And I believe that if, if, if there was a an autopsy, It would show that the man was murdered and, again you know I've got I've, seen the evidence it's in a vault in Oklahoma City, Now what happens go tell us just a little I mean I You know that we're going to be having you on. I have you back on to talk about this and there's more to more to be said and more to come. Obviously, but God is God thank you Dan go ahead. This thing is you talk? You talk about body Dallas and what's important before we are again just for the, for the audience to know is that there was this idea that the

seven children we're going to be he. He really didn't, have a good relationship with them. He was affected by by going into and doing performances in the sick children. Spittle eighty made a commitment at that time because it was so affected that he would spend all his money gives money right away to these underprivileged children to educate over to make better their lives. So now, what did the body Dallas have to deal with, at least his idea that the children were not going to gain from James Brown's death? Well? Well, I can tell you this Mister de

Dallas. I'd met sister Dallas. I met Mister Dallas and what occured was this when Brown made out his will? He, according to my information, that I got from one of my sources, one of my principle sources Brown said he was going to cut his kids out except to give them enough money for college education and mister, and, according to my information, Mister Dallas, was was trying to advise him that he shouldn't should give them something else, something more and Mister Dallas was he was uh. You know he was doing. I think the right thing, and but that didn't happen, and so

The money was left to the. I feel good trust and. Again when when when James Brown died, the family insisted that no autopsy be performed and the doctor acquiesced. Even though Brown had gone to the hospital with a drug overdose and he died in a very suspicious manner, which I will talk about when I hope when I get to write this book, and so I mister Dallas, I think, operated in the right way. You know, and as far as

But as far as James Brown is concerned, you know you've got forensics, you know in forensics could actually show if it blocks, Hopsy will performed. That he did not die from pneumonia, which is what it says on his desk Yeah- and I have I have- I have to tell you- it's been- it's been a long's log on this. I've been working on this case for ten? No, it's about eleven. You know this is the twelve months. Hey guy, I haven't even uh. I haven't even gotten a publisher or or an agent, yet you know I've been so busy investigating. You know what I mean, but it's it's it's it's really something and it's really something and- and you know

all right. You know for certain. It reminds me of lobster boy actually because of the fact that she never dance. You know and I'm involved yeah very, very exciting, very interesting. We won't be following you and our and the audience to be falling on this one for sure. Certainly well, if you are tell you how much your support and and the audience to support means to me it it it. It gets sent it's just it's incredible. You know it's just incredible. You know every time I do your show I say to myself is Dan. The only one that read the book. How many times do I do it? interview with somebody, they never read the frigging book. You know yeah, you know, and but you know, also the fact of the matter is you know you you. Sell for homicide. Investigator you're, a journalist.

And you know and and you're an author, so you know your skill set- is much different than a lot of individuals who do this? a similar work to what you do well, thanks for what it is too, is that these- I think some people just don't have enough time or don't see the importance, a really reading the entire book for an interview, one way or another. That doesn't happen for them, but they are missing out. My for the you know the passion that comes across on the pages of your book along with other books, but and then in the audience, gets that in these interviews and then gives me so much feedback and you know you get it as well from people have listened to The program and just are enamored by

for interviews and talking about these stories and these cases. So it is a great community. I think that we are speaking to an involved with, and it's it's my great pleasure to have you on Fred, and it always is because these books are captivating an incredible and it's just one good enjoy. Global, true crime, history lesson with having you on Fred, so I want to thank you very much for coming on in talking about. Did they really do it and just giving us a t she's on what's coming up next with the murder of James Brown. So thank you so much Dan. It's my pleasure. An all I'd like to do who is wish you, your family and friends, a cell see Anna Happy New Year and everybody this listening to us 'cause, that's the most important thing, absolutely Fred. I want to give this opportunity to do The same for you as well to hope you have a great holiday,

season and the best of health and the best the success in the new year, and I'm sure that will occur, so I'm going to. Thank you very much Fred. Thank you very much for coming on talking about. Did they really do it hope to speak when speaks with you in the new year. Thank you very much, Rosen a good night. Thank you. Adios.

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