« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers

Episode 22-THE BUNDY MURDERS-Kevin Sullivan

2010-06-07 | 🔗
Ted Bundy was one of the most infamous, flamboyant American serial killers on record, and his story is a complex mix of psychopathology, criminal investigation, and the U.S. legal system. This in-depth coverage of Bundy's life and his killing spree that totaled dozens of victims is drawn from legal transcripts, correspondence and interviews with detectives and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information on several murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from his broken family background to his execution in the electric chair. THE BUNDY MURDERS with guest retired minister and author Kevin Sullivan
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killer, who crime history through murder, with your host journalists and offer them happy. Good evening this is your hosting of passkey for the program to murder the most shocking killers in true crime, history, others that have written about them tat.
He was more than one the most infamous flamboyant american soil serial killers up the Starlight Lounge presents an evening with the glass box. I think a bit of a risk seeing an answer, but of course the one place I never take chances is the room where progressive snapshot reward you safe, driving, a good driver plus snapshot, equals big discounts and speaking a math one, plus one Nicholls too little too late. The basic cause of the ancients snapshot, Monovalent California, North Carolina from allegiance on record and a story is a complex mix. Psychopathology criminal segregation in the? U S. Legal system is indeed the coverage Bundy's life and his killing spree that total dozens of victims is drawn from legal transcripts, correspond in interviews with detectives and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information on several murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from
is broken family background to his execution in the electric chair, the Bundy murders, with my special guest author, Kevin Sullivan, welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview, Kevin Sullivan Dance. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you. Thank you very much. This is a fascinating book that you have and about again. Like said one of the most infamous sir, your killers of all time. Notwithstanding now the question I almost all ask exclusively of authors uh, because I'm very curious and I'm sure my audiences to what made you decide to write another book about TED Bundy. I said one of the most infamous serial killers of all time. Well, the interesting thing here is how I got involved with this. I never had any intention of writing a book about Bundy. I started the Bundy book after finishing up another true
I'm book, but I have a friend here, liver and his name is that James Matthies retired now, but he spent twenty years and probation and below him Kentucky, I've known Jim for a number of years and during our friendship, he's mentioned several times that he is good friends with Jerry Thompson. Jerry was the detective in Utah who broke the case and kind of broad head Monday out of the shadows when he was arrested in August of nineteen seventy five The right that on a burglary charter, suspicion a burglary well anyway, we would mean that we would talk about Jerry got a call from from Jem one evening in March of two thousand and five he said in May, Jerry and his life will be coming to Louisville, which would like to have dinner with us. Not sure that would be great.
But on the night that he came to town and Jim called me, Jim said these words to me. He brought the bag and I said what bag he said: the bag that eh Burundi carry. That's it oh wait a minute. I remember You tell me that Jerry Pumpkinhead in his possession Bundy's market- I said so you're telling me you've got the bag right now, but yes, in my truck, so we were due to meet like, I think it was like seven hundred o'clock or six hundred and thirty up at a local restaurant here in Louisville. Steakhouse stake out Jim. Could you made me a few minutes? I went up there and lo and behold there's this brown satchel with all the implements that can be used all the time to kill these women, and so we got to go over it. Well, Jerry was here for two days, and so we had a nice dinner. We went back to the
hotel. Afterwards, we sat around the pool. I interviewed him about that talk to him about the bag. I knew it would make a good story for snitch. Snitch was a local newspaper here. In Kentucky that was in well is that it actually four five states at one time, a two thousand and five. It was running addition zone in Louisville and Lexington KY, so I interviewed Jerry and what I saw during the two days. He was here. Jim was able to keep this bag at the at his home, so I called him online. That's it. Could I bring the stuff to my house to photograph and he said yes, so I picked it up from his house and I was driving through a dark and neighborhood, just as I can imagine, Bundy did many years ago with this satchel on the seat. Beside me,. And so I took it into my home and I had my wife, clear everything off the dining room table, and so I was able to take photographs of all of these things and it was the most celile Expn
periods and so obviously in all, I wrote an article personage, but it didn't it was, but I'm getting a little ahead of myself before Jerry left town he gave Jim and he gave to me also one of the green glad bags. Actually your trash bags that Bundy had in his murder kit, he hasn't opened box of glad bags he's already you some of them on victims, probably the Colorado victims, so on so forth, and maybe some people victims, but so when Thompson leaves town here, I've got this bag in my home and again so surreal. I thought you know. The interest in this case is just building and building and building so after the article was pub.
Different snitching up timing on them. I kept reading all of the books that have been published, and I thought you know what I think I'll write a book about Bundy and so that's how all of this happened, but well about to say we can get into it as it unfolds tonight, but she can be interesting thing was a lot of people were saying you don't need to write another book about TED Bundy he's been he's been done. Death should have something with him. He said. Keep pushing. Let's just see. What's here already knew that I had a pretty good knack for tracking people down and also you know getting them to talk and- and I was able to obtain research- and I was always really good at this sort of thing. So I said I'm going to get you know, that's what I'm going to do well halfway through the book I began Discover
things that nor the writers had had had found out about some of these murders? Some of these detectives were talking about things that would have been too sensitive at the time to release to anybody seeking this kind of delicate information, also from many of the books that were published about Bundy were published by people who knew him and they were published early most of them like the killer next door, Stephen Michel, inhumane, What are the only living witness those are all in the early 1980s, the very early 1980s and and so some of the books that I don't think is as important Monday books by some of the later. Like the attorneys, I mean there good books, but there's been some that have been published, like from the psychologist,
Up and down with him on death row when he was wheeling and dealing and stuff like that in and those that are considered too much about liking for biographies, but dimly Monday at TAT period in a slightly psychological itself, but that the fault but the major biographies of Monday, a pretty much early on the only and the only other folks were written about money. They didn't know him worse, even wind, Emmy David, when Anne. Stephen marrow hope I have that right is locked, but they will get money. The killer next door and big will also varies so outside of women. Now, I'm the only person that ever wrote a book about Bundy who did I know him everything that nowadays it sorry server, and so you think there is some problems with Ann rule knowing Bundy so intimately. I mean people will nobody from all people, no body from the stranger beside me and
and so obviously, and they know her relationship that she had with him. Maybe we can talk about that a little bit later, but you do think because she knew her. She knew TED Bundy that that made for less objective Iti in her journalism. No, no, I see it's funny people that New Bondi everybody's got a little bit different slant and told
her book from the position of what she knew and I think she did a fine job and doing it- people criticize her a lot for that book. Her book is not one of my favourites on Bundy, but but let's put it this way, I've never get rid of mine, so I think she did a great job with it in that. From her vantage point, if you take like I like Larson, who used to interview Bundy when he was with the Republican Party in Washington State Richard Larson, he worked for, I think the Seattle Times. He had a really interesting relationship with Monday. Of course, once this came out, even though he felt like money was guilty, he played friend the Bondi to get information from him, so he has a slant and the excellent book. The only living, witness and confessions of a killer Steven would show on Q Ainsworth at a very interesting relationship with Bundy they set out to prove he was guilty. That's what they said. I mean that's why I can't hire them. Of course they knew Bundy was killed,
but in the process of all of this coming out I mean they produce a couple of good books out buddy, confess motors to them in the third person. So that was very good. That's all of these books are really great books. Now, when in Meryl were just a couple, good reporters and they didn't know buddy, but they did a good job with their books, so really winning Maryland myself, where the two books that didn't know TED, but what I found interesting some of the stuff that was now, when I did my research, for instance, when a cobra, Idaho, there's not a lot mentioned about that girl in most the books, but I did a tremendous amount of research and I went back to the confessions other Bundy that he made to the item
instigators when in so I was able to bring up new information there. That's never before been in print. So all of these books have there really interesting, takes on my aim with my book once up, every writer has a voice and I knew that I could do good research and produce a good book. What I didn't know when I began was that I would turn up so many new things about the case of three or four, the murders, brand new information on them and a lot of new things in a general sense about the case, and I believe that do a really good job of painting, Bundys decline, so to speak from the really swab inarticulate killer in Washington, state of nineteen. Seventy four to the very sometimes grimy, an inarticulate and really-
mentally declining individual that he was in enough war. There was such a vast difference between the funding of Washington State and the body of Florida. It was the slow, the gradual melt down from what he was there to what he became and if you look at the two people, if you look at the CHI Omega murders in Florida and you're, the detectors on the same, even if you would have had a hand of bundys and his murders in the NW, you did never put them together, because the am a housework completely different. He had Bundy was the killer anyway,. Ok, let's go back to what you learned about TED Bundy, a lot of people there, some common facts about TED Bundy. I don't know if you found anything to dispute the main ones that he was raised by his grandparents and they told him that his sister was or
his mother was actually a sister and he found out too much much later on that that was untrue. You know there is because he didn't bond with his father. There is always an he never did know his biological father. There is always that that psychological effect as well. What did you find, but I think was surprising to you that you, like you, said you did a lot of the research by reading all the other available information. Did you find out? It was unique in your investigation of TED Bundy, the main thing about, for instance, the childhood. It's it's apparent there, the early on that these were some difficult things for a child to have swimming around him. Is he grows up? There is real father, never to be there.
To have an adoptive father that, as he grew up, he had problems with it's true that he lived with his mother at her home with her parents, So there were, there was sure, a loving us to the family, towards him, TED and Louise will work will very much accepted there. There is talk of problems with the grandfather and some of it maybe room with some may not be rumour, but your white. He he for a while. He thought his mother was a sister only later the planet that was his mother, as I mentioned to some other folks
when they were doing an interview of these things are hard on people and on kids growing up, but there were problems beyond that which was happening around Bundy because he showed signs of what psychologists make all a fractured personality. Early on his aunt said when he was three. She woke up one morning to find Theodore play themed kitchen knives, pointing at her around her body raise the covering you point of anything that ever so that that speaks of some severe problems early that alone and in something that I think I mention this in the book to them today. Same at or another one said that she was
waiting with TED at a like a train station at dusk. I think I put this in the book I remembered from the research and he seemed to kind of morph into another person and that really bothered her. So, for whatever reasons he had psychological psychological problems Leon and were most people as they grow up, they will adapt to the doktor and having a baby apparent, we them early where they don't even have any memory of them and they they don't like it, but they adapt and they go on. He never could he couldn't deal with it. He had a real sore spot and in fact, when one thing I came across- and I cannot even say for sure whether this is mentioned- it may be mentioned in another book that, because I got so many things from the official way
good. I know the wind Monday was arrested neutral and they were doing psychological evaluations of him, and then I had a court was also doing evaluations of him and allow the probate the probation, parole officer. Who was writing about the case for the judge? Ah, he said that when, when Bundy was, Ask about yourself but he's real Father, that his face became reddened and contorted, and it was all he could do to come. You know maintain composure, but he pulled everything together and then he said something I quote in the book. Something to the effect was you could say that he left my mother and I and never returned it, wouldn't exactly that's it. It's it's in the book, but the fact that this rage came up within him so much so that he his face. Reddened and the beat contorted gives you a good indication of what's form around in the sky. So you know eager
he had his problems and made could be the futile Bundy would have still become a very odd individual, an maybe the same full fledge killer, even if he would have had the most ideal surroundings as a child. So I will talk about that. A little bit later now. You say that, I know that there was some problems that at home and obviously the trauma of finding out that his sister is actually his mother and his grandpere and by this time there was a stepfather that he really didn't take a until there was some major resentment towards him now, one of the I think again, the fighting. What about your mother is very traumatic in you see that's often times in some of these serial killers, some of the same scenario but then again. At the same, I was so much stigmatization
or an unwed mother that there was some things done like this, so what it was fairly, it was a lot more common than you would ever see now. The other thing was that TED met a girl that he thought that he thought was the perfect men from and she was beautiful and highly sophisticated woman. I guess TED didn't come from a super wealthy background as well. So I guess he admired people that achieved often where success right. So tell us a little bit about this. This woman- and maybe you know, 'cause. It really sets up the significance of of this woman in later life right. Well, you touched on something very interesting. Bundy course was adopted a joint body, and you know he was cook. I think the Madigan Hospital he and Louise Meal. They will go to the children,
they loved other kids and they did all they could to turn to the terrible. But inside body was the desire to have only the best of everything and even from an early age, what he could not paying through buying report. The scene which would which really was a lot from an early age, longer steel and he had a real contempt for anything that he would consider cheap or mediocre either be they inanimate objects are people, and so he can have you. Johnny is not being the swiftest your mentally his debts. As paper up, he was, I am sure, a smarter individual in joy, but are now being smart, has always picture of. What do you need
it's not my table but but but the bottom line. I recognise that the problems in Johnny Body now this girl to be met if you're speaking of Diana Edwards she played and she played a big part in his life. He was from San Francisco. I dont use her real name in the Balkans, the same. That's your name and she she was a good looking woman. I think that Trevor end up other people have talked talked out of people in Washington state. An interview bamboo remember her, since she was a really nice nice looking lady, and he was you know he. I dont know where TED when he was dating her, where he thought all that was going because he had so many other problems and his fancy life was building, but apparently, even even with Diana Edwards. He would take advantage of her. He would like use a credit card to buy things and in because of
things that just, I guess, bothered her about TED and be cause of perhaps feeling like in the end. He wasn't going to go anywhere. They had a break up and that break up was exceedingly hurtful a bundy, so much so that he told us Cozen, and I can't remember, I think that I was like in nineteen sixty nine, I'm not sure it's been several years since I've done the research and- and you know, written stuff, it was like sixty nine, but he told his cousin. He said I'm just trying to get out of Seattle, and so he goes, it could've been one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight and he goes back e to Philadelphia where he was a child with the grandparents and his mother, and I say in the book I said you know the flight to there. You know like
good, but surely that he was unable to keep the memories at Bay about what Diana which had done well. Tat was a wonder: let things go and so that they would see each other. Periodically and then later in this was when he was baiting lives, candle which Kendall is her name. She used for her book. Her real name was clover, because I want to show respect to her. I used that name candle also, but she, when TAT was with her. He kept her sobs sequestered from his political life when he was working in the Republican Party. With people like Ross, Davis and so forth. Ross told me he didn't even know about Liz, but he knew all about Diane Edwards well right to make a long story short just before his killing spree began in January of seventy four
He had gotten, you know he had entered law school and he had impressed Diane Edwards so much so that she re committed herself to TED and they were due to get married, and this is the thing about it. What she said. Yes, she goes back to SF there supposed to be preparing for their. You know wedding whenever that was going to be set and he had one in his own mind, he had gotten her back. It was paid back. You never even called her again another time she contacted him later on, and I think that was already in January could in late December, but I think it was already in January.
You know he was well on his way into that other life of killing and he was passing from one room to another where all normal activity was being suspended for all this diabolical stuff. So but he didn't care. That was a payback, but he, I believe, Edwards had a very great effect on him early on when she dumping them this time right, yeah, it's incredible story and again around. At the same time, he finds out that his sister is actually his mother. So it's a lot have dramatic experiences all at once now, but he still was focused on his career with equally involved. He was, he was a smart guy. Yes, he made, Made his composure in front of his friends and a lot of people have mentioned his facade, so he had,
he had a character that he built he was. He was gregarious. Guy was an outgoing guide. What happens next in TED Bundy's life? Well, I I should go back as he grew up. He had a close circle of friends. He had the other friend warned dodge an. I can think of off hand. It was another fellow that was a really good friend of his, and so they did things together. I believe that that TED wasn't a big data so much so in high school and like they remember that, there's a story this one fella told and it's in the only living witness about how you know somebody would come up with this fellow and ask him to come to a party. You know- and I will not go over the weekend, but they wouldn't ass tat and you can see that bothered him. So I think tat.
Is considered somewhat of a loner. He was different. God knows he had his problems going up because it's because TED's personality was so fractured early on and like I say it might not be from everything that just happened to him I could no one really knows why he became what he became, but as he grew up, he was able to mask a lot of things, but I think in my book there's a big difference between like masking something masking your inadequacy's in life. There's a big difference between trying to do that
and then trying to hide your diabolical light of killing women. So he grew up. He didn't know exactly I'm sure what to do with all of this he's made statements like he didn't know exactly what it really meant to feel like a friend and have a friend that he knew is emotional state was different, but it was through the years that he was coming up and going up and, as I say in the book as he developed as a young Republican, and he was well liked- he was mentioned in the Seattle Times, LOS Davis, who was the head of the
of something out there in the republican party. He he. You know he talked about how doors were opening for TED. I mean everybody knew that this guy was going someplace, I mean he had the outs on the outside. He had the look of great success, but this is something that the reader tell the reader to keep in mind that, at the same time that the world was seen all this TED Bundy was becoming prolific in his fantasy world having to do with violence and murder with women, but all of that was inside. He could keep those fantasies inside, but he used to go out at night. He
peeping Tom, and you know nobody really knows when Bundy started to kill now his official launch in the murder was January, one thousand nine hundred and seventy four and there is a difference, no matter if he killed before. Then there is a different in January, one thousand nine hundred and seventy four, because that is the place where Bundy truly stepped out of one world and into another. From that point forward. His whole life
given over to only murder everything else beyond. That was a facade, even his relationship with Liz. You know he talked about maybe one day running for governor of Washington state. He wanted to be attorney, but by January of seventy four, he knew that he was just going to start killing women and keep killing women in billions caught he'll was either captured or killed, and so his priorities became less and less as he got into those killing years in nineteen. Seventy four and he would start shirking his duties in the Republican Party because he couldn't be in two places at one time, but now there is
there there. There are reasons to believe that he may very well have killed in one thousand nine hundred and seventy three he may have even killed in nineteen sixty nine. I mentioned earlier about the psychologist books and people who dealt with him at the like in the end years, where a lot of researchers owns go to those, but they might view those books as far as from the people, I've talked to as being of the same as like doing a full biography. Because of this reason, towards the end, I believe sometimes Bundy would would make confessions to some folks that could be altered by him.
To help him gain more time because these people were hired by the defense, and so he told doctor are Norman just short time before it was killed, that he killed two girls in New Jersey. Well, there are people that aren't so sure about that. He may have done that or he may have said that to give himself more time when he felt like he was running out of time with all of the real cases he it was like crescent rolls at the end. So I don't know I've got all of those books by the way, they're very good and like in rules book. I wouldn't be without him there in that collection and will stay there, ' 'cause they're, all great books and but but but so, but some of these things, where he speaks of earlier murders they may or may not be just can't, prove it. Even that book opens up with the killing the abduction and murder of Ann Marie Burr. He may very well have been involved with that, and that was back in nineteen sixty one, but he would have been fourteen, but we can't say for sure he called
admitted it ran homes of criminologists here in Louisville, who had a lot of dealings with Bundy at the end, but maybe true it may not be true, but one thing is certain once he crossed over into that realm of murder full throttle so to speak in nineteen. Seventy four in Washington State there was absolutely no turning back and he knew that, and so everything else became up the sod on the outside and I kind of like it Bundy to a predatory shark, especially as he goes through the years by the time he's in Florida, and we can get into this later. But he's like a predatory shark, I mean the guy is cut off from his family is cut off from all his friends. He makes it to Tallahassee effort Scaping from Colorado the second time, and he made it comes through Louisville, and you know he goes all the date. Grass all way down to
he picks up playing Attica. Our Colorado on this second escape lands in Chicago Emmy. Our core elements in Chicago picks up, try trained Ann Arbor spent some time at the university. There steals a car comes down through Louisville comes the car in Atlanta, takes the bus to Tallahassee. Nobody knows him down there. He could maybe stay down there. For years, but that create was sitting for awhile that desire to kill came back, but by the time he was in Florida like I said he was a different person and he's little more than a predatory shark. What's a shark doo will travel in packs they travel alone. Mostly, I mean great wipes out, that's what I'm told and they just go out and they feed that's all they do. This is what Bundy was doing. With the matter he just at the thieves cut off from always brands everything silent, but their very eyes. It is it is it is it isn't that I mean I've seen it before were in love less a vessel with the say it every Dahmer, but a lot of these guys.
They descended the man. If what you say is isolated anyway, he's use these nothing to lose, and- and so he descends more into madness and the fantasy is murderous fantasy like takes over more isn't, isn't it sort of a symptom of what happens with these guys? They got nothing to lose twenty murders, one thousand five hundred and twenty twenty five there on the run. Yes, yes, I see a sensible person course. Killers on sensible, no dispensable person say might say well, we have made it to Tallahassee. Maybe I can lie low shared a life for myself, but no the whole reason that everything that's driving him as surely in the offing about Bundy. If you think about it, I did this doing the research bird and the writing of the book. It's astounding, the things that Bundy would do to adopt.
Person you can, and I thought to myself, you know if I was going to abduct somebody, I wouldn't do it in front of hundreds of people or thousands of people. I would get somebody off by himself, but he didn't think that way. This is why he became so confident in his killing spree in Washington state that he did the double daylight abduction of two women from lakes.
I am in July of that year. Nineteen, seventy four and just think of that he got one in the morning took her to an isolated place. Some people think that he killed her, but he said later he admitted to William Hagmaier that he kept her alive and that when he went back and of course that was Janis odd- he got Denise Naslund that afternoon and took her back and then apparently killed one in front of the other than it was the other knows. What's coming, it was all to create the utmost psychological terror, one witnessing it and so, but that was a thing he exposed himself, and that was a mistake, because not only do they expose himself, but he used his real first name is there and
It was overheard by other people and one lady who went to his car that day. I have a picture in that book of his car sitting there. Under a tree there tat someone had taken Albania, not meaning to pick up the car but take over some police him. The deal some people near the parking lot and the police had told people exam. Please please sending reporter grass. We might be able to obtain picture this guy anyway. They did so that this everybody coffin and of industry is confident that his car in a lady that went with money money to his car to unload the sale boarding of that sort. And she said well, there's no sailboat on your car. I mean there's a trailer or sell it, not parents house up in Issaquah. Thank you! So I'm sorry, but I'm getting out
I can't go so that's ok, but she later identify this car as being at that spot. So he made some mistakes at Lake SAM, but even so it didn't catch up with him till much later on and so anyway. So that was an odd think that, of course, when he went to Utah in September of one thousand nine hundred and seventy four here in a role, he had gone a year in Tacoma, at at the. I guess, with the Puget Sound law, schools, the new law school at the time it wasn't happy there and he needed a new killing ground. So he left is there anyone you too well for the first semester, he killed here, you're gonna class three times that person has really at the time of killing women
killed at least four and one of the women. He of course you know he he didn't, have the supreme advantage of Washington State by now all that territory around like Giuliano and all its ok. So we had a lot format he's been to Utah and other times with Liz to see your parents and, as I say in the book, he he would scan that with a predatory I equals Lynnwood. I mean lives would not know anything about that, but he had to learn that territory. So he was an endless troller, so he learned the territory but it, but in the period between when he got back, I think on September 18th 20th his he had moved. He done the initial move in his Volkswagen on September. Second, one thousand nine hundred and seventy four, which was memorial day that year
picked up a hitchhiker in Idaho Motor that another story and I brought to light- that's been Canada hidden in the council
type of mystery. But I got the official record on that. I got with Bundy said about it and I was able to clean some things up with that and so anyway, and so he came to Utah and then he had to go back to Washington State and throw it back again with his brother Glenn truck move some stuff Glenn flew flew back to Seattle. After helping with the move, the heavy stuff and somewhere around September, 18th or September 20th funny was back in Utah to stay in SALT Lake City. So, between that time and November eighth, when he kidnapped Debbie CAT from the Viewmont high school in bountiful, you know he killed four people that they know of and the night that he got. Debbie can't, of course, and I'm sure that you're familiar with this story, he had attempted to get Carol to launch the better from a mall, Murray UT and, of course he caught him.
Vehicle at Macmillan School, any it factor. Well, she fought on the really really hard she really fought back and he did something that had never happened before he lost control of what was going on and she got out of the car and he jumped out over his over her passenger seat trying to chase her. But there were these lights coming down the road, and that was. I think it's a Wilburn Mary wall. She is older couple and they picked her up and he said well, that's it got this car. He was in that altered state of his. He needed that kill and he had been the bountiful couple weeks earlier picked up a brochure about this play at the Viewmont high school at the bountiful recreation center. So he gets all out. Fifteen shoots shoots up the palpable check this out. He goes in and
those pictures are not both have toured photographs. You know high school, he goes into heels at the front door, so this high school, it's teeming with people. Anybody could have been there from salt lake. It's a fifteen minute drive. You know anybody cook for the seen him he scouting for women, ok, so, finally, he goes into the theater and the number of people there that night with one thousand five hundred people like I see in the bookie, he exposed himself to hundreds of them to abduct one of them and the only thing he did to conceal his identity, which was almost ludicrous. Was he just had a mustache he he was wearing
Mustache they've changed his clothes from what he did in the Carrollton last thing, but but to think of that he's putting himself in the middle of all of these people in a well lighted, hallway and theater 'cause, the show hadn't started and he found that it came out any gather. So these these should be uh, but thanks to Theodore Bundy, would do his act. He's acting like he's, acting like a desperate thief that that needs to rob a bank for some heroin or something you know it really is unusual. That a man act that desperate, like you say, fifteen minutes later he's without any
disguise whatsoever and in front of people in broad daylight, he's looking for another victim and gets another victim incredible thing? Is it worked? This is the thing about Bundy. I think he did. He developed an eragon's. I I really believe he felt like he was untouchable. I mean, if we didn't know the story of Theodore Bundy and somebody was going to write fiction about a guy like this who have ducks people, including thousands of like SAM. He goes into an auditorium. I mean it's, it's almost in my view. It's almost not believable Becaus, it's just too risky, but you see I'm speaking from a normal mind. Most people out there you everyday, No I'm on my computer, but to a psychopath like Bundy any successful one at that. It's like the perfect thing to do.
Will you help him? He has. He has some ruses, though, that are quite clever, that visa the I'll do the rod she he poses a police officer, he hasn't handcuffs other times. She's, posing with a cast that he needed help and the thing that I always thought there are some photos to, and maybe it's just me, but he he does look like great caneer I don't want unveiled greatly back if you yeah buddy, but he looks like that kind of wholesome all american actor. You know so it must really helping them. In many of you look one a lot of the women not to say that most women are pretty anyway, but I mean he has he. His victims were especially attractive women target at these women.
Many people said the targeted women. It looked like his first girlfriend rejected him. So it's incredible! Well, that's true, and in fact, that some people finally between that, of course, is that it is my belief that, if Diana which will never dumping- and he would say he wouldn't even married her- I still believe he would have gone on to kill woman. Because he had such a fantasy world going on that. No one knew about where it had to do with violence against women and like, for instance, just prior to nineteen. Seventy four, his sexual desires, those things changed, and he was wanting Liz to do things that didn't considered normal, and this was a chain. She noticed this when I was you go up well, four points that she be. He was wanting NATO flags. She didn't want to do that and she didn't
So that was no. This came out in the report. Very tough, interviewer depicted Valentine, detective arab deal. They all flew up to arm Seattle to see her and waited. He was sorry that saying all this, because she had her back and forth about it, but also he was one: the Pirate Bay and she did allow that a little bit, but she saw his sexual desires changing. But it's like I've said before. If Liz would have complied with everything, it still wouldn't have been enough Becaus it had to include violence and it had to ultimately, enclosure certainly thought didn't matter exactly so, even if he was married and Edward really bloody.
Not going to marry anybody. He knew his life was going to be one of the murder and murdering women. So he still, I believe, will it become that killer. But there was an error. It's in body, and what sad is he he proved over and over again that he is bizarre theories, have been able to adopt women in broad daylight or believe just about whenever he wanted turned out to be. True now, big difference between literacy, Washington, state and Utah, and, of course, when he was in Utah, he started killing when the investigation became too hot and heavy in Utah January. He was killing and cholera and he also spend more time in class in that second,
master, and then he killed in Idaho, but by the time he got the Florida. His killing was, of course, where at one time he was real concerned about evidence, but I got the floor and this is part of his meltdown. He was leaving evidence everywhere. It just did matter of the eight new echoes that before a lot of new dna. So what needed to catch kill that way, but but he'd left evidence had to wear once he was caught. It was easy to match up a great deal of the evidence against him, but but but but but buddy was proven correct, so many times on his theory of being able to adopt it will but, like I say he was articulate handsome. He was almost things and he was like a magnet to women, but in Florida he actually repelled women. He tried to pick up women at
the disco just across the street, it's on the same side of a coyote. Make it's time now share it sure odds, but instead of like being in Washington State with women would sit down and talk to him and think it was such a good. Looking guys, not sure I can go to this car wedding, then they were weird enough on this cat. It will repost by this guys like he was putting on gods. He was a totally different, Creek by then I saw his days of adopting openly were just about all I can say in the book he couldn't copes, conscious women believe with him when the night of the cattle make amongst so he attacked unconscious. Women account more. He descended and even a very strange cheer you up in your character in the annals of like us, him about predatory murderer, be made now he was like make headlines and he knew it he's a very, very unique
Bob Capital cities, just nobody up there like him to so different to very odd man. What was it was easy for people. They don't know what I mean. A lot of people know the tea. He be people with crowbar in baseball bats, but there was talk of necrophilia and there was talk of trophies, give us the full extent of not methodology. The actual signature of TED, Bundy, ok The main thing that Bundy enjoyed was he his taste change. He was definitely in the neck. Failure. He told William Hague Meyer, a probably told Bob Capital later he said, he's had as many as four heads in his apartment in Washington State when he lived at the writers House Thea there like girl,
Point number have people: yes, yes, the roaming out by my black. Yes, as many foreheads now, in my opinion, a useful boys for sexual purposes, because Bobby was in in the necrophilia he told, but people that he kicked it up a notch when he got to utah- and this is what I mean there is evidence to suggest that I need strong evidence that he kept
both Debbie or, I should say, Militia Smith and LAW and Amy alive and and no doubt in his roominghouse I'll, be carried them up. The fire escape and the reason why I say this it has been touched upon. Another books not bring it out in my book, is that when the body of illicit Smith was viewed, they calculated how long she had been dead and it was right in five days. But if you double that nowhere I'd like to set out in the book. It means that she was kept alive or some time a number of days before she was actually kill and she was also washed up short hair was washed. Her sister said when she saw the body she was wearing, make up that she did not so
buddy, probably you know, cleaned and washed her hair and you know, put on lipstick and did all that stuff and then finally released her into the wilds, for you know natural decay, but he kicked it up a notch and very, very brazen. So there's a good chance that and Monday would the main way that Monday would take control when he was going to use a crowbar is just a smash him in the head. Now it usually didn't, kill him. He didn't even want them to that, because I still hate my himself told me that Monday used to enjoy knocking them out and then having sex with them. Perhaps anal. Perhaps you know vaginal from a high
and any choke them to death. Well, he did this and course that his for physiological reasons of the tightening of the muscles so on support, so he he enjoyed that a lot and now here's something interesting that I found that of course, Bill hagmaier satin, every confession that Bundy made at the end every single one of them, and he will some people criticize Hagmann and it's so stupid that they done so. But they criticized him at the time for getting so close to Monday and like be friending him. But I hear you got a serial killer and you got a guy who works with behavioral science unit. Of course, he's seeking information about the killer get got to like him, and course they became for any befriended dead and then head warmed up to him. So he wanted to confess everything the hagmaier him. I said you need to tell all, but detectives multistate spelled officer in here with you. Well I
One day when I called this particular directive- and we were talking about the girl name, when I tell her and my Fischer said well, you know I talked to us. We know who was the chief investor later ever at all at the time who did the confessions with Burundi and were now told me that on the got her, he drowned her in the back up and down, and that was a man of that. That day very did that's all right. I called a laughable,
I hate mark and give me the skinny on it. Well, hagmaier didn't even know he said. Look I mean I have a lot of respect from the effect of the told you guys, but I sat in on that confession and that wasn't mentioned well. I had to call Russ with though, but I said well, here's why bill didn't know it on aims. At that time, bill said 'cause, you know, heads preferred method of the murder was too joke from behind, while he's having intercourse with them. You know, and I said sure I know that well I talk to Russ. He said well, here's what happened he said we had only an hour will cover two cases
but he was making comparisons about the hitchhiker, but he kidnapped murdered on September seven I mean that there are second liking, for people are already the solitary well and they we talked about the lack of eleven October girl, so it would be if you say we go back and forth quickly, but I imagine that he had put the girl in the matter of death was drowning, and then he had put the girl in a body in the world to a river every left behind him, but he ever say drive a parcel. As always, we in the prison. He said the Randy Everett, he said Randy, but he never told us really what he did or how he did it. I want to go back in the prison and see if you can get a meeting with him, so Everett did whenever it was taken into a room and waited on Monday about twenty minutes and he walked in get that down. He asking the questions he said he don't like you
make it clear. How did you kill this girl? He said well at Brown in the bathtub yeah I took the body, put him a car, a trunk and at doctor in the I think it was a snake river. I'm not sure I'd have to go back. I don't even know if I named river- maybe I do anyway, but so anyway. So so so hate Mark told me. So if you can find out about this, because that was never said in my presence, I would like to know now- they'll hate my ryzen expert. He knows every day about this guy here, I'm fine. He told him out that even he didn't know so I thought they have said yes. Well. This is said he said. Randy had to go back to the President Elect can't confirm that I said bill. I understand because you weren't part every wasn't. I mean whenever went back in that Monday.
Take my one. There has already gone on his return when there is just one rainy and body so so softly. That's another thing about like what I got all the case. I went from eight based on this girl. I found out you were things about how bitch what was going on in the city there during the time it was made six, but they were heavy snow showers boat. I said he was there which would make hunting for Monday very difficult. Women were story to the cars. Bunny talked about going into a highlights of the college and being confronted by e mail. Almost all the bribes almost became there, but he was a totally
also. I bring a lot about this caliber girl, where she lived in relation to the school were Bundy gotta, be the distance between the Chaldean where he took her. Thoughts were most but, as I say, will have Nelson, maybe several centres on the work of the kidnapping and mother. I have about four pages in my book: it's pretty data information and was that suffers as we have also had no information about the Julie Cunningham other than my Fisher told me in, and are a confession of the sudden that Fisher told me about what Monday confessed to him about killing Karen Campbell, which also is not been in front before so I was able to get a lot of new informations about about three or four of the murders and a lot of new information about the case.
In general, so it was a real eye, opener doing the book and, like I say I had no idea when I started where it was going to go. I just knew I wanted to do the book and about halfway through I thought man. I have really got something really really important my answer and I'm so surprised myself, because this is not a new case, as we all know anyway. If it has been a real experience, you know I was glad to kind of shut the door on on Monday after I was done with the book, but you know what I I still answer a lot of questions as a site on executed they were the interviewed me. Ah, in January, 24th of two thousand and nine on the anniversary of bodies, execution of the twentieth grocery and we've been adamant. Answering questions there about the case ever since then, and so people are very interested. In that case, I think the reason for that, but despite all the new stuff, I found that there's so much about this guy that we still don't know
His other questions about certain motors, how many murders I think he probably killed upwards of forty, maybe not that many he may have killed more young girls on that cover was twelve years old. And you know he feigned ignorance, as were age, he didn't mind being known as a killer of women, but he hated the fact that people would judge him about killing young girls and his last murder was Kimberly Leach in Florida, and she was twelve and that something he couldn't even hardly talk about, except he admitted to so. But he probably killed upwards or maybe thirty six. Forty people images story of Nazi thirty six would probably be a rough estimate. Let me let me ask you a question at the that sir I've wanted out since the beginning of the show. When you talk-
It was very interesting when you talk about how you got involved in this case, and he and about a guy named Guy Nancy or did Nancy to the gym Nancy not quite sure, yeah chains, Murphy, Massey people, happy elevator, Jerry Thomson right, no Jerry, every Thompson. You were saying that He got ahold of you and between these two guys you had a meeting and you've got. You saw Bundy's, murder, kid, the blue! Now, why on earth did Jerry Thompson? Have it do you want to show it to you? How did that all go down? We got about three minutes left but tell us how that how you came to be and what was in that murder kit as well. Ok, it wasn't any
to do with me. Jim had always expressed a desire to see it when Bundy was transport here fifty year, prison sentence for serve out, but for the attempted abduction of care launch was transferred. Colorado had to escapes with the porter killed once it was executed, that was his property in the in the youth, all a sheriff's office and so very Thomson took possession of it asked. King tools for seminars. Well, Jim Anti had always wanted to see the bag and its contents. What was in there and I've got pictures of this in the book. I got pictures from the nineteen seventy five arrest of all this stuff laid out and I took pictures and all the stuff you know my home, but so he brought it to Louisville to really show Jim. When can I ask me to have dinner here? I learn about all this stuff, Jim big. No, the bag
coming to Louisville. He just knew Jerry. His wife were coming to Louisville so anyway, so I thought cat. That is weird. I said I'd love to see that stuff just be cause. It's so odd, like somebody saying Jack the ripper stuff this year, let's go look at it. It's almost like some kind of detachment from it, but that's how that happened. If it wouldn't be for the connection of Jim Massey and Jerry Thompson and that bad come on the Louisville, I would never have written about this case. It was so odd. Inside the bag. Was a scheme ask then there was an ice pick two right here Is it cool hubs? That's for dragging bodies through the woods they were only right handed, one was of puppies ski type, love and the other was a brown woolen glove with like leather on it. There was a rope for binding hands and feet or choking. There was an electrical cord that the debt
can we use for choking there was there was Monday, is taking bed bed sheet cut it up into strips for the binding of hands and feet both still have the FBI tags on it and let's see what else was in the bag, with the glad bags with a flashlight and uh. I don't know, but there's a picture of all this stuff on the dining room table in my book and, like I say, there's a picture of there's a pretty thing, despite the fact that you coded the site executed today, there will be little thing on there on the first page say: join the conversation with Kevin Sullivan author of the Bundy murders, or something like that. If you click on that, you can go store and you can see the pictures by TAT. It was just absolutely surreal, unlike many of them would have been rate in that might have turned into its niche article I guarantee without having to suffer my hands and indeed
in that bag, I don't think I would have been driven to write a book about this guy. Just to be honest, but thank God I was because I think once it was done, and I thought well, this is a if I can say so myself. A great book yes, it is it and he's done a great service to because there's a lot of people, like you say, there's a lot of people that are very interested in this. There are other potential victim. Certainly people that says that everybody's is in agreement and- and there is a fascination with TED Bundy because he's all those things that fictional psychopathic killers have that the charge the the education, the good looks and the beautiful victims and the incredible then escape it, the fascinating story and uh, and you have just added to the the incredible myth of TED Bundy in there, but cut through a with some real good hard for facts about some new material. So I want to say he very much given Sullivan for a great interview and for you, the Bundy Murders, Kevin Solomon. Thank you very much.
Much and have a great evening Kevin. Alright, we'll see you later thanks again, thank you. Kevin bye, bye, You're not listening to the programme to murder the most I can killers in true crime, history. Others have written about him with my guest, Kevin Sullivan, the Bundy murders. Have you suffer good evening tonight
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.