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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, DDT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and other Dan, is asking the two thousand and nineteen fab fit fun winter boxes on sale. Now my wipe LISA so excited to get her very first fat fit

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for ten dollars off your first box at W, W w dot fab, fit fund com use, coupon code murder for ten dollars off your first box at W, W w dot fab, fit fun. Dot com good evening experience some of the most intense hostage cereal homicide, mass casualty, stocking and violent. True believer cases encountered by an expert during his thirty year, police and forensic psychology career some of the scariest and most interesting criminals are broken down and analyzed by Doktor Christmas, highly an expert police and forensic psychologists who has met and evaluated some of the most dangerous people have walked among us. This book, as numerous first hand, accounts of his work and interviews four cases like the angel of death, serial killer, races, cereal of Sassin,

Joseph Paul Franklin and even the Oj Simpson case detailed case information, including excerpts of interviews he's conducted with these offenders, provides a platform to learn shocking new information about hostage takers, serial killers, mass murderers, violent true believers, terrorists and some of the worst predators on the planet. The book there were featuring this evening as evil thoughts, wicked deeds with my special guess, forensic psychologist and author Doktor Christmas handy welcome to the programme, and thank you very much for this interview. Doktor, Chris, I'll be back in nice to meet you nice to meet you. Thank you very much for joining us today, fantastic rape,

the letters if, as you did in, thank you, let's get right into this sum. This is such a fascinating work. Any evaluating spoken with so many incredible criminals, killers- and you have such a fascinating work here for us to listen to about evil thoughts and wicked deeds. Take us back one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight, when you were twenty four years old, your second year in internship, you were moonlighting after hours at a private practice, and you tell us about meeting Dr Martin Rizer becoming involved in his orbit. Tell us how that happened, how you became interested Tell us a little bit about that as you doing the book, one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight I didn't know where I was going with my career first day I mean I thought I was going to a single out, maybe see clients on an ongoing basis and treat the worried well and in walk, seemed this private practice. Where I was moonlighting,

a guy who was contemplating a workplace mass casualty advancing then, we didn't really know all that much about these things. They were just starting. The the word going postal with just we're just being coin and here I am- I don't have my phd. I don't have my you know malpractice This insurance in when I was doing in this gentleman, oxygen and want to tell The story and maybe get some help, and now he had felt mistreated in his work. He had blown the whistle on some your car, run it using this defence contracting firm and based upon the aftermath. I felt even retaliated against in his response with the final workers cop case and in that adversarial process. Help is reputation had been maligned and many been destroyed in his solution was to create a list of people who wanted to kill purchase. It is not an easy on the black

breaking out of dollars and in come to the opinion that if these final hearing didn't go his way he's gonna kill all the people and here I am a wide eyed a four year old kid span. Oh you know what do I do feel an overview That was nineteen. Eighty eight now my first taste of this stuff, and thankfully that at all and it worked out, but it was. It was scary. Now. How did you come to learn of this directive? Will bring a rule science services, section, doktor, Mountain Martin, riser, and then how did you become involved with him? you said it manager and he was about to begin the foundation of police. I call you first in house, please psychologist and any department in the world they would nineteen sixty eight there that was established at the LAPD in you dont in eighty eight I was in graduate school still and there was a small little advertising on the Balkan Board at my grad school at half time.

Unpaid internships at the LAPD with Doktor, Barton, riser and. It. I had already done one year of an internship at Vienna Police Department. Doing do urgent counselling a couple years prior about you know that I got a little bit of experience here and I spent What time talking to the officers had dreams? It seems like it's right on pointed not realizing the legend that I was reaching out to look into this. It might be a nice niche, so I contact the doktor wiser- and I thank you in January of nineteen, eighty nine interviewed with many citizens. You graduate may I'll. Take you on as an intern, and in that time period. Somebody said that is the guy, but I found a bully psychology developed investigative hypnosis The protocols for how you deal with officers after shooting see he's the guide. It was the Yokota First police psychologist to be it,

asked negotiation teams, LAPD, maybe a third to get negotiation in in the seventies, but part of it ground for development of their heart teams was to have a psychologist attached. The team and rule out on all these events and action no small measure because doktor risers. You know groundbreaking workin establishing its credibility, so I got lucky thought ad. Where did and it was well received- and I was well received- and that was the beginning of my those were real, of my education. Certainly now you talk about and write about in this book club, the practical world that you were in the psychology operational psychology were involved with any talk about

the vietnamese man was high higher crack. Again, you talked about earlier about a successful, basically intervention when you ran to the supervisory say: listen what we do and he ran back and you negotiate with them. He said in the road in the book it you would have done things differently. Today. Now here I want to man, but you said it very astute of you to call what we did in that room with the guy that but the kill all the supervisors and people it is. It is workplace and to go. In retrospect, you're right, that's what that was applied, even handed training in it. We were work, this guy, basically helping in that country- its conclusion that hey this is not the best solution or other solutions to this problem in it it involves hurting people that you're your method of problem solving. Here, sir, is one method:

Here's some others, but you right in the eye and abiding my way to real negotiation training at the LAPD. I went into the first course that they had when, when I got on board, I I got to sit in another forty hour coercion. But yes, I did have a I would add that, in the end, the practice of nineteen eighty eight now tell us about this should be the main man, and this really vivid seen that you write about about this man and you trying your best to avert and being killed. So tell us about this and negotiate Sean's therein. So this was a gentleman of vietnamese male who had been a strange from his family. The title of the chapter in the book is: is it a good data die? because TAT morning he called his psychiatrist, who had been saying for a week,

this completely had he had thought he been mistreated. It is workplace. Two interesting themes and yet that psychiatrists it had company You know what it's your drug problem, not how people are good its causing these issues in the workplace, and so he had, but he had called that I trust that in the morning having reached the end of his rope and said, you know what the Griffin today is a good day to day and in that is what prompted the call to the location. In what had happened was that he had gone there to kill his family and then himself, and fortunately His family had escaped yet his three, a daughter, JANET had not been so fortunate. She ended up with your dad, who is on a collision course with in a fatal death. And he is basically no wanting to kill her and kill himself.

Murder suicide in progress I would have done he's been smoking crack and he's coming down and he's he's got. You know he wants to you want to end his life. Unfortunately, where he was at new. Wanted to take his daughter with them was horrible and little bit more to his story was is dead. He had gone out of it with this parameter bits and shame issues related to adapt. I'd vigil, his brother in law had said some inappropriate things. The family had basically exercise them as they as they should have, given what he was saying and doing he had driven several thousand miles to a famous senator Hazel, pin in Minnesota spend a couple days there and checked himself. May, because you know it was too much like the prey happy birthday and when he was in Vietnam, being locked even for treatment, wasn't an option for him so as we, so he drives back.

Two of the family- hey- I couldn't do it- makes had seated in Finnish that he drives back again and try to get himself back and the facility should, if they know we're, not taken you and now he's at the end of his robe and that's when he arrived back in LOS Angeles. You know basically held thereupon destruction in so we find out from you the doctor that had been treating him about this history and, of course, that goes to the difficulty in negotiating with him because if we try to help him, he is not willing to jack himself in anywhere readily I'm going to jail cell. In his own mind, he had come no way out other than death and destruction. So it was. It was one of the worst hot. Did that a bit at you, ve got an innocent life in the balance. A guide you know wants to and his own, but not before, taking his own flight blood, and it's just a matter of time- and here I am, you know

Ninety ninety two or whatever on you, know twenty nine years old- and you know I'm Givin input team and part of my job as a consultancy. The artists negotiations team to the Swat team at LAPD is: is this negotiable? You know it is Is there any hope here? we can. We work this guy and I had to basically way and after having tried all kind. The talking I'm strategies with our really excellent. No, who were neatly language speakers that had been the training, but they did everything they were supposed to, and it was just not gonna end with aid, oh I'm resolution, and so that was I was thrust into life and death. You no kind of decision making, which is not what graduate school prepared for it.

Yeah yeah. This was a heartbreaking story and this is early in the book as well as big gives, because he really it really shows the police and yourself when the negotiating team did everything they could to prevent this. I really really was I mean it's not him Not to be understated is that he had every opportunity, especially with these vietnamese officers that did a stellar job of connecting. You told him to call him, you know of brother, and so they look like it. Look like there was very there was some hope here. Look like there was a lot of hope actually based on the techniques that you guys employed, but in the end, heartbreaking. No real old with up into a corner interest. You would happen, none of it, and then you have the chemical influence Dan of, obeying high on on crack cocaine, which it owed stimulant, are very much so seated with high risk for violence potential, but then your crashing.

Air that one may already feel is amplified by. You know that chemical imbalance that has been created by the up you could work goes up, must come down in that what was happening, so that we were up against in ITALY, it was. It was kind of my first for aid to just how bad things can get and how quickly they could go bad and then just how important it is what law enforcement does and the efforts in negotiation to buy time, even if you can't negotiate Solutions will present themselves more time you can buy and we do you know where him down and Lee in older. It's it's be a great outcome for him

I want to spoil everything unless you want to ask about it, but I got it was it was in TAT. Absolutely you learn from all of these situations, ones it turn deadly and ones. They don't ones that you ve prevented things from happening. You talk about a serial killer unlikely in terms of where you might find this person and that at the hospital Let's talk, let's talk about Efron, seldom r o happen it out of our so called angel of death. It was preying on patient fatigue. And the old man a hospital hearing when they offer many years. You know he's kind of a low key affable seeming. The affable guy he would. He would not send off your spidey. This is a guy that is a threat or a menace. You know

at one point he had been a checker at the local supermarket and he thought I come to the line with the stethoscope, Bonn and scrubbed, and he it. How do I get one of those one, the respiratory purpose. Didn't you how much education that day, agony guises warriors were to take heed of. I could do that. You know I could have seeming power of of at the outset. In the things that I get to do, but without having a go to medical So he was attracted to the power, the job, but not the kind of guy that would it would seem like a wolf. He was a wharf in Sheep's clothing and known to those around them. Is yearning and his hunger for power over life and death in the playing God ASP, that had been had been years before, I'm through with upbringing, and through his reading of a book called upon, a pale horse is kind of a comic books die

oh you'll come in the dark said where a guy ends up starling the grim reaper death as he's sending so haven't or how death and the dying in the guy in the book have to assume deaths. Role. I think saw the bar It is time we read this block any had an epiphany application with that character, that kind of way, dormant, later, when I would interview him after he was ultimately convicted of the summit, a homicide. Who perpetrated in hospitals. He He remembered that that experience of having read the book and and and the impact it had upon let me try to downplay it, but it was clear that that it had filled avoid for him. In a sense of purpose and meaning and that for a guy like him

it never felt powerful or any sense of potency kind of an inadequate guy it it it elevated him and secrecy aspect of what he was doing. Is he still you know, approached people in a hospital that supposedly met his code. It is fulfilled him and it lifted him out of depression. It lifted about of despair and it served a purpose for him. You write that he his hero, you, he told you and in an interview that had Kevorkian,

the only outcome was a hero to him anywhere else and you he actually gave you some and enlightenment to his situation by saying what really triggered this sort of while obsession and interest watching a man suffocate tell us what you gleaned from him. What he told you about this incident and how it influence them, and then you can talk about the drug that you talk about full cognitive awareness, oh yeah yeah, so the there was that there was a light. Changing experience he describes warehouse, perceived that there was person. It was dying that was supposedly dead or dying in the hospital and life.

Wipe ending measures had been terminated in slowly. Was you know it was? This person was supposedly this going to succumb to his natural death didn't happen, and his accounting of it- is that a nurse or somebody their turning. Gotta do something. This is a good and at that point oh he's. My guess is what I'm supposed to do and then you know him The story is that he finished what was supposed to happen. Naturally, combat is ended, his disguise lies was lifesaving, measured response and he spoke. I naturally now I keep saying his version because very a tendency among these these types of individuals to a tribute approval from those around them. Then then, you know is likely really being

but in his own mind he concluded. If I guess it's, what am I supposed to do and that with like cover the innocent between the fantasy of being in the role of death, the grim reaper and the reality and it's kind of like you know, I often use the the this analogy of once the JD analogy: metaphor that once the GDP has led out of the bottle, you can't put him back in again in the GDP being the I've done it and it's world the possibility improbability and what you kind of data meaning taken human life in this fashion. For these purposes it becomes something that they can't stop doing now. They may have cooling off period. You know that that serve the purpose of not getting cod, but you know it's like what they had a drink. They can't they can't put the bottle down and in so

His task was, you know it's he saw was to find out. Why do I do this in and what does the backs of two of the respiratory therapist? He had access to these agents sucks. He called even path along which Arch Harare, like substances that are, to allow him to incubate patience and does it needs to induce paralysis that they're not choking and gagging, but what it does is it stopped breathing for the breeding keep can be put in an artificial respite, respiration can occur and yet the person is completely cash So the person is aware that they can't breathe suffocating until the to those in its dawn. But if a person is administering as a method of homicide, a particularly dramatic in all forms of death and in some ways, arguably are some less than others, but

in this case- you have full wakefulness and awareness in the victims, but with a complete inability to say or do anything about it, So it's like frozen terror. It's completely proceed experienced fully, but their immobilized, and I can't do anything to express so we think about those dreams. You may have had worry. You know you can't move in your body stock and these things are happening. Ground. You that we might experience in that transition from wakefulness to sleep, it's like that, but with absolute terror and that with the kind of death that he was inducing in his patient, so it seems peace broker not struggling to not moving they tat, but it its absolute horn, terror. Now you we talk about Europe valuation.

Tell us what these cases all about evaluation now Porta is glad not That's what I want to ask a way. I mean when I'm out not what I'm not gonna hearted into. Did my I'm doing it assessment. My job is to assess the moment what's going on and what strategies might be, it recommends strategies fascinating sociability things to do things not to do and strategies that might help diminish risk. You know those kinds of things, so that's enough that the former, psychological assessment. You know for negotiation. The situation has retained in importance all the more case, the angel of death. I was brought it in another operational role in that with his account. Open to the task force, which I would I consulted with them for like four to five years cuz. It took that long to put the case together once it was disclosed that there might have been victims and there might have been

the case. My role that in that matter was to help understand, How these kind of offenders offend we actually went into some other ones reviewed. Other cases interviewed other offenders that had killed in hospitals, one of whom was Donald Harvey and in a high o could feed at information. The investigation is that the task of the investigation that point was to gush. Thousands of people died in the hospital. Many of natural causes. How do we find the twenty bodies that we want to exist in increase the likelihood that if they were back and saw the bar that they would be, you know within his pool of victims, that is his victim, ology, and so my assessment there was, I'm a friend are we dealing with here. You know how do we approached him? you know how do we think about who he was selecting so that a different form of evaluation or assessment in this operational speed

There are times when I- work on cases. I will get too far into the specifics of. Certainly I do a lot of. In fact the cases where I'm retained like somebody's. The old one or more people were hurt. People in and there in their defence, is I was say that the time you know and my job is DEC, in our view, do traditional Psych Lodge casting, maybe and then assess whether they didn't know what they were doing. Or didn't know that it was wrong because of a mental disorder and I've done. I do a fair amount of that to present day. Usually homicide cases, and in sometimes I get brought in on death penalty cases to do assessments bought for defence and for prosecution around issues of mitigation or aggravation did a lot of time. The the

the defence, raise an issue top childhood or gosh. You got mental problems and then the other hypotheses to explore make the perceived stone cold psychopath like it brought in. On those cases, I've done nothing shiro kicks your murder cases. In that regard, I was on the grim sleeper case and allay, for example, and then Peter Shooting case. I consulted prosecution in Colorado site that a different form of assessment and then their threat assessment work that I do which might be accompany hired me or a school. They got somebody there right about that. That's that's a potential risk. Danger and then I might get brought in either to directly or indirectly assess whether there in fact are

a lot of different forms of assessment and Evaluation Dan and that's what makes my job never a dull moment, absolutely tell us about who point the term violent. True believers explain what you mean by violent. True believers before we talk about. Joseph Daul, Franklin, violent, true believer is a term is to describe I'm a philosophical e motivated Killer, guided woman guy, who is doing it for a purpose that might be Oh to advance some sort of cars like it could be because there is, there is Lambeth, and I use the term Islamic nodded Islam, but as a person is advocating radical versions, there is a lot to do. To go after people that are infidels. You don't like me.

Now, when one hijackers would be is Lambeth separated through to Muslims or people practising the the usual peaceful forms of this law Then there are violent. True believers, it might be single issue offenders. People like that are against. Abortion or animal rights. People that are advocate violence to fulfil their higher purpose or objective, People have a racist agenda. Like you know, white supremacist, those be some examples of violence. True believers. The term true believer comes from a book by air copper called on the true believer. And, in the aftermath of nine allows name one one. We love doktor Red Malloy, whose very well regarded friends of forensic psychologist, good friends

fine and I were saying tat. We did an analysis of what we published it in that process. We were getting the term. True believer in and Reed said in a document boy said you know that it's really not Truly this a lot of true believers. After we're talking about violent, true belief, most people that are willing eyes elements in in favour of it. And thus the term was called. Find in are homicidal suicidal state of mind article that came out in two thousand one just after nine, when one happened and it was read, it suggested Pudding the violence in front of the true believers? I I give him credit. It out the biology believer label, and then the article was one that, with co authored by him myself and some other noted,

people in the areas of mass homicide, publication and scholarly research and its one. Now within the thin usage, it's it's. It's used a lot. I remember watching a James bond movie. I think it was. It might have been the first one with Daniel Craig. And I remember I M saying what he thought of the true believers and it's like wow this term has been has now Oh, you know, become, dispersed and is in use by the people that we want

using it. You know in the in the intelligence and in an answer and tying counterterrorism communities and now found its way into you know into the art that imitates life absolutely less users as an opportunity to stop. For a second talk about detective trap. Three women disappear in Santa our California. A detective do licit travel

always dreamed of being a cop. Now she was an unconventional detective in an all male homicide squad. Detective trap, overcomes Rhone demons and an app authentic society to bring a serial killer to justice. The new podcast from wondering any allay times detective trap takes lit the listener into her personal life and her esteem. Police work is hosted by award Winning journalist Chris offered, while listening be sure to subscribe to detective trap on Apple pod, gas, Spotify or wherever. You listen, also check out the link in the episode description now, Chris, we were talking about about to talk about Joseph Paul Franklin Gap, thickly really interesting case and tell us about your meeting with him and your interview in prison

it's him what he had to say about the? Why Joseph Paul Franklin was probably one of the most interesting through murders that I've ever met, one of the scariest end. I'm one of the most disturbing, because what he represents in the fact that it still this kind of It is still out there these ideas are still being put out to inspire people like this, but Joseph pop Frank. When I came across, a couple years, Actually, in an interview to myself, I got out. I'm interview for a show that I've been involved with where they were interviewing him on the show ever error. I think the pilot earlier to whatever, but upon hearing what he had to say and learning more about him. I said I gotta get back out there and talk to this guy. This is like this is intense and it was because he killed twenty, three people in racially motivated homicides, he was trying to start

a racial holy war. He was hoping to do. You know, cause a war between African American caucasians and divide. You know our society and he actual sort of inspired, not sort of party was inspired by some other races like the White Knights of the complex quietly original ones, Nathaniel bed from forests to founded the KKK back. Then a terrorist organisation, Joseph pop record actually been in some of the K K, K groups in his part of the country, the south, and found them to moderate, but with all just a bunch of you know Parades and you'll that kind of thing- and he thought this is this: we need action and so he decided to embark on what he called his mission and his epiphany.

Was a moment when he was a good Christmas Eve about a year before he did what he did. He was frustrated. He couldn't get a job, they quote white man, and then he fell back and all the rhetoric. If he'd been you know, immersing himself in people like Herbert Armstrong and Worldwide Church of God and other. You know the guide it will diaries, William peers. All these people were part of the year, the voices that he listened too was inspired by, and at tat moment in in Maryland, he said: Almah, I'm gonna. Do this and use for us really could get a job and he did it getting you attributed to his racist believes that the society was not taken care of the white man.

More until four year. He read it ready himself for his mission. He is born under a different name. They dispersed was born and he added up changing is named. Joseph Daul, Franklin legally Joseph Paul, as a to be naughty propaganda. Ministered does Paul devils I was one of the heroes and in Frank when in homage to Benjamin Franklin who considered one of the first true American. So he is. Kennedy literally became synonymous with his mission, and He started targeting jewish people mixed race couples. It is actually the guy that shot. Larry fled in writing. In eighteen, seventy seven because he had seen in half what

applications where if we had the first mixed race, sexual explicit pictorial and when he saw it, he would just pop rank authority was enraged, and I am a king Oh him into, then he in any target him, ah Vernon, Jordan and then twenty three other people. You lost your lives, including one police officer, because it is his desire to perpetuate or promote supremacy and to show it's our racial holy war in just one last footnote on that one of his other heroes was on Charles Man too. Many people think of Charles Mansion is the cot later that he was, but if you look closer Charles Maximum Also, our racially motivated the whole helter skelter thing was about policy

a war between white and black and our society at the time and so on, just Obregon with aligned with those ideas is well now you talk about The interview lasted several hours, but talk about some of the some of the things you say about in terms of suicide and homicide, being very, very similar or to stop aside opposite sides of the coin. The you can explain. Yeah I mean I mean you know there there's a guiding Schneider men who wrote a really exceptional book on the suicidal mind eighty identified and commonalities that we see in suicidal individuals, one of It is an attempt at solving a problem. Not up it's not a.

Probably meant that we recommend, but it is an attempt at the flawed problem. Solving mechanism also stems from a perceptual distortion of of restricted ability to see options so, the call that perceptual constriction and an inability to see that you know what they're there are other options other than taking your life, and then there is an emotional state of hopelessness in an open and we talk about the consistency of lifelong styled. The way a person goes about their suicide We reflects the way they live their lives. There are more organised or impulsive. The act of suicide is going to reflect that. In looking at a lot of homicide that I've seen, there a very similar process among people where it is a dysfunctional way of trial,

solving interpersonal problem. Usually there is constriction of their other person's ability to see other options and be waiting about it. Does typically reflect lifelong style than it usually. They're usually is some hopelessness, your kind around did the equation. So there are a lot of Commonalities and seeing a lot of light. The mass casually such backs, the people bed like Joseph Daul, frankly There are willing to decide on the silly intending to die and then looking up our true believers noted that you know that there is fair amount of overlap between these populations, so that which is the reason why we see a lot of time. The end of a mass Kathleen Van is the person taking their life because the same factors it got them to direct at outward are started with initially directed inward itself. Destruction because two heard other p.

In my opinion, is a form of self destruction. It is against our species. Not only to herd ourselves but to her to others- and this is a footnote here. If anybody, up. There is feeling hope, where's your help with my hurting themselves or others. There is hope there are people that care, and this too, shall pass in all the people it. I've ever talked they have made a decision like TAT God at the beginning of my book. They ve all been glad that they did not do it so that an important message to get out there. I have a message in my book, but I think this is a nice place. To put it in, There is overlap in harming others and harming oneself both in the internal processes. They get you there and in terms of if one is I heard it oneself and I think most people suicidal are homicidal, but I will say there is a greater risk of being a

you ve already got over. Thou shalt not killed, I self, because they are distorted. Thinking that that I believe lessons. Innovations against harming other people again be clear. Most people, the one heard themselves- do not want to hurt other people, but if you compare populations of those that are contemplating fell farm prices, those that are not you're going to find it, Basically, I believe more people that have also got over the hurdle of hurting other people. In me, I got over hurting myself, population. You say they accept right. Yes, it does. Certainly you write that you learned much more from one particular person named Jeffrey Cox, tell us what you learned and why you learn more from this person that survived Jeffrey cop was one of the first school shooters and when I say I learn more I learned a lot more.

School shootings from talking to him. Everyone, you know, really wasn't completed, but all the variables were there, It was February nineteen, eighty eight, which was before these other school shooting should really happen after them, and It was a small school here in now near my home in an athlete California, and die in India said Gabriel High School and I amber, and he had come to the conclusion that he needed to take it it may be heard some people, maybe can somebody in point tickets to Brazil as his way of resolving the fact that he was going be graduating and I neither want to be forgotten about so what you got all all in this situation, got through the reality you ve got weapon thinking. You ve got him talking to his friends about it beforehand. You ve got him

you're in the throes of adolescence decision making. Which is always the best. You ve got. You know him. Watching notoriety in that there was no social media right. So it's like I just want to make the news in the newspaper and be remembered and were seen just so much of that now there that is First of all the issues that the person is struggling with, feeling ashamed? Her? You know worthless and violence has become the solution to the problem, the second layer were sitting on a lot of school shooting cases either not all of them, but a lot of them, the hunger to be remembered in wanting you know your fifteen minutes of fame or your followers increase in all that kind of stuff and

it's available and on a scale that we ve never seen before. But Jack was the leader of the pack in a lotta respects and just taught me a lot about the thought process. The way his decision making was at the time because he had time to reflect upon it? was was very thoughtful, very bright and talk about how making was thing you back, and why do you do this? You do this and its inability to kind of poor himself back once he kind of polar the people. What might do back out that would just delete? My ego couldn't take. So there were just so many lessons. The interview he saw graciously gave to me those years ago. I would What I would do school vowed to prevent generate

The threat management workshop, which I still do this day, I wouldn't terribly show like about five to seven minutes of clips of Jeff. Talking about how came decision what he was taken in kind of game living demonstration of how he got there and where the mistake were in terms of managing it The lesson tat really changed lessons raw. Alan capsule waited there the story, the official story about Columbine, and you talk about the Columbine effect in this right. We can discuss that, but that there are some things that happen in Columbine. That official narrative that you dispense with here. You'd dispel, I should say, ah tell us a little bit about the Columbine effect and what you found out about

alibi and shooting itself, but you look Columbine effective. Is the label? That's been given last several years to the fact that many School shooters and even other mass casualty shooters have Columbine and refer to it as they continent their own event. It is the call by the fact which refers to the to the psychological phenomena of identification and did a lot of people that they have had impulses to hurt. Others that have been carried out disturbingly inspired by Columbine and use that is there a template. If you will the set plan and unfortunately perpetrate somebody's acts, It happened around the world and so that the label for that that phenomenon in many these p

aren't. Even in America, there were several couples from Finland. Germany were inspired, do at Brazil, Australia of Course, Canada. And- and some of these people that have been inspired by Columbine word even born We are conscious of these kind of thankfully, the either not born yet or children. To what will happen is that it became what we refer to in the profession is a watershed. A bad one net becomes a reference point culturally part of the cultural script and those that have interest in this area.

If they were born yet study it and all kinds of stuff, unfortunately in social media, so so the Columbine a fact is referred to the fact that this ban- at least at this point, a hundred known plots, some of which were interrupted in some, which were carried out that have resulted in the deaths of dozens of people that were, unfortunately, by individuals that identified with specifically the offender columbine the myth of Columbine. You know there were were these ideas that these two boys were horrendously bull. In the day you had. These tumultuous pass anyway we did it. They really want bullied any more than anybody else, the high profile and a high profile, but a high frequency event on on car high school in middle school campuses. Unfortunately, but it's so high frequent

that boy were the cause of school shooting, We would be like so many more than we did we actually do. It is estimated that forty percent of kids have some involvement of bullying at some point in their lives, either the bully as a victim or both Anders This claim with this. You know that debt that the offenders from Columbine, In a word bullied, there were dishing it out just as much as they were receiving it. There is its method. There isolated. They weren't, I mean, I think, one of them actually gone with a bunch of his bread, Lemme Walter handsomely dressed you now At the weekend we get or two before the shooting- Oh there's more going on here than the simple explanation: these poor suffering kid. They were not poor suffering. Kids. They were

spoiled over indulged kids with it all families, it didn't know really why would they had an unkind of enabled them, instead of holding them before they were pushing limits in breakin rules. You know didn't quite know what they were dealing with. Now, that doesn't mean it. There aren't kids like I talk about even Ramsay from Alaska who have horrendous background, but these two kid yeah? Now they were, they were the spoiled narcissistic variety you'd do discuss sanity and discuss it too much, but there is a difference between a sanity hearing and then the idea that someone could be deemed insane you. Ah, unlike many psychologist, I think at least might have a little different opinion about sanity in the courtroom.

Tell us about something, to write about well Saturday. We are. The only must be insane in of effort that an everyday were. You know, there's the everyday statement by people gosh. I did that horrible thing. He must be insane. Ok, that's the everyday use of the word insane in court. It is a very specific legal definition that have to be proved by the defence. Once there's been a criminal trial of guilt. So there's too, It is in most criminal trials, the guilt phase and then at the person put their mental stated issue. There's the family phase and the presumption in most states visit the person is in is it the person is the presumption most AIDS is the person is saying and if the job with defence, if the evidence is there,

to prove that the person is insane at it, usually a lower threshold preponderance of the evidence, as opposed to beyond reasonable doubt. Now there are several problems, often come up. The first is: do they really have a mental disorder, we're not we're not talking at their under them, difficult people that have trouble get along with others, but about my mental disorder like bipolar, worse, the radio, whether hearing things are seeing things or just not proceeding world in a realistic way. That's the first thing. Do you have a mental disorder and then, if that job, to find out whether they didn't know what they were doing was wrong for that somebody was being hurt. Maybe they thought

I have one guy that he stopped on a guy to death by one offender that it stopped a person to death, because he believed that in his deluded thinking that that was breaking bread with Christ in it that was the purse, wasn't dying. It was simply a heavenly act of some sort. Ok, absolutely even get that somebody had died when he stopped the person to death. Ok, so that's one way a person could be found in saying is because their mental state preventive understanding somebody's been heard. Another is. It was wrong another guy that shot two people to death. They believed that that there was a government Pharisee and the government replaced all these people with fake people and it- and there was this hall

now at last. It was going on in that it wasn't against the law. That was, they was defending himself against this government conspiracy and again that goes to the wrong fulness prong, so insanity it a very specific legal definition that does not apply to the vast majority of criminals. Did that payment there's a small percentage, did actually are found in saying by juries, but most people are found, I'm saying because under this very specific criteria for it, when they are deemed insane it does that prompt a trial if they were to be deemed sane

doctors, I'm not understanding the question. I'm sorry did you know when they arise when their deemed insane by the courts. In these rare cases, will those people then be tried for their crime once their deemed if their deemed sane by those same doctors, the typical way it dealt with? Is the guilt phases? First, So there is a gilt phase, a person may be found guilty of first or second degree murderer whatever the crime might be, and then the person says well we're by aiming not guilty by reason, insanity than is usually in California, for example, a second trial on sanity and if their found insane at that point by that core preceding the jury says now we you think, he's insane. Then they're gonna go to a psychiatric hospital until the hospital beams them.

I'm saying no longer a danger to the community. And there's assessment to take place. Some people are never found to be be restored, the ferry or being enough not a danger to the community at their released in some. Are there released all the time with varying levels of controls, so there be cases where they might hold other charges as hey if he gets these charged awaiting, both cases, it's kind of at all or nothing saying and their convicted and then their deep, to hospital and then what the hospital deem them, people being relieved boom, they're back out, MC marry again, leasing. California, for example. Absolutely let's get to your work. With stocking and hours while the most famous dockers well time. People don't know is OJ. Simpson

so tell us a little bit about your work, was Anne and and your personal experience in the OJ case so doing stopping cases thin probably my first year LAPD, we started the in stocking cases, no mind you in eighty nine stalking. Wasn't a crime. At that point, I think the first jarring statutorily look we're in California, nine. Ninety dish, MAC came about from the trade murder Rebecca Schaefer EL. I pity form the first breath management unit to work, stocking cases, and at that point I started consulting with the threat management it on their cases occasionally, and then we embarked Active research project where you look at one thousand and five stockers it's published in the Journal of Forensic Sciences. I think it was two thousand and six the biggest single study of stalkers and we developed a way of categorizing them

primary categories. One is the intimate stalker that somebody is pursuing a victim debate, our relationship with either Mary to Ex boyfriend ex girlfriend added in then no longer the relationship and their pursuing them. The second type is the acquaintance Docker it might be. Now something that you were coworker with, or it I'd be a victim whose health care provider that their patient, pursuing them or a boss being pursued by an Ex employ Dobbin acquaintance. Docker then there's the public figure stalker, which is you know when Hoskins, was pursuing Madonna. He never knew Medina Hee, hee, the media. Today that my wife at the delusions and most other many public figures? Dockers delusional, have serious mental problems in there. What I call the private stranger stock or something- it's just in your environment, they might live in your neighborhood or work.

We are working at the mall. Just some guys in unstable forms, a fixation upon you, but you ve never met them. I'd, be so mainly in the universe at your college. It just becomes fixated upon you and what we found was the highest violence rates were any intimate stock and group. We had like seventy four percent voluntary. And then the second highest was acquaintance dockers at fifty percent. Then the stranger stock of biology was thirty. Six percent and in the public figure stock await with two percent. That does not mean that if you ve got appear upon, a figure God. Suddenly, like Hoskins, come after you that you should be not concerned. No, I Some of low rate of that is because a lot of a lot of public figures I've gone to Russia that it may also been artifact the dataset that we were using the issues. What is the person doing

no and in other engaging risky behaviour that we look at it was it was. It was Great study that we we managed to get published myself free, Malloy, Peter Column, it was an accident other people- and it was it, was just super interesting in, but throughout the years I've worked upon us in cases valuator them interviewed him in prison. I interviewed Hoskins and, of course, you To quote you mention Simpson, and that absolutely was an intimate stocking case where he was not letting go of awe Nicole Brian Simpson and unfortunately What is happening is he adds up killing her and want old men who does have to be, I believe, in the wrong place at the wrong time. My involvement

The Oj Simpson case was on that people. My my bobbio defensive case was on that fateful Friday I was on call for the passage of team at LAPD like many. During that day, We were all watching the news because use both turn himself at noon did not know what had happened in office at the table: eyes Isabel. I pity, as we start joking, I wonder what time is gonna be a call out here that we call We go out after hours and we'd have a barricade or outage incident, and I had home to Pasadena among call and the next thing I know listen to the radio, the elephant rock and roll, whatever they kept interrupting with pursued, not that timeframe in american history pursuits were breaking it on tv all the time- and this is a first time wanted interrupted a radio problematic. What is this

and then I realized it was these low speed pursuit that it was under way and that caused me to call them Average T love Swat headquarters, and they said yes, we're gonna headed a residency supposed to Oh there's surrender, we need you to go there, and so I did I I wasted to the other side of town which we the trip in and of itself mayor there very fast, but not without seeing the craziness under the on the overpasses that the crowds of people that were the basic Rockingham. When I pulled up my city car there, if I hadn't come behind the cap that oversaw swat I'd still be sitting up there, there were so many people to base it at St Dan was like five people the base of the street chanting, whose it was a circus like none other I get through that. Out with pushing and shove it against the car park in front of the house and now meet my god. Are you sure you seen mentioned throughout my book? He was the

sergeant time overseeing the negotiation said production? Was there? We got a briefing from Robert Cardiac issued about what was going on with Samson Simpson. At the time it just pulled. The driveway was barricaded in the car with a scene he had a gun to his chin. They put a bullet proof. Tommy sent me to the back yard and in the house, I'm doing my utmost going into the back yard. What kind of guys it's gotta watch much football I knew about. Simpson was school, my dad when my dad with the USA, but going through the backyard, it became very clear what kind of person who was he had two full size statues of himself in the back yard and his whole barrier walls were covered with pictures of himself no family photos, like you saw during the trial just pictures of himself. We jokingly called it thousands, on an early o j. Hurry, I get in there I get to the doorway behind

Why reader? Who is the negotiator? Why readers handsome? a guy who also was one best negotiators, and if you ever see any movies like twitter present danger, was good friend, Harrison for would often appear in here movies, playing different roles, which is where it art imitates like life, imitates art, but in this situation it was like and empty words? she waited with them and OJ was not sure if Turkey wanted to kill himself or whatever and showed the task at hand, is You re inflate a narcissist whose deflated by humiliation of all this, We use. What was their look at all these people use saw. You still have a kind of people He was worried about. Is his deceased x y for this man lost. I for one goal. Ben Ali was worth:

about was himself and his image and that we did. We we always an ear, be ill them up and that we do and then he eventually, surrendered, he wanted to talk to his mom. You want to use the restroom any want something to drink, and so he come then collapses into the arms of the officers after after Companies lemme get in the car and says sorry that wasn't. Gonna hurt you. I just got hurt myself and then a guy in the bathroom autonomous call is marked. His mom was in the hospital time. We're like words the drink come from. Why is it? so long to get a drink, clear, some swat cop in the kitchen, Roy

but you around, like e t, as my father is arrived at in the fridge work it takes a long time ago, but we stopped ridge. Well what it was with some swat cap with a sense of humour was looking for orange juice, said the deuce backward, and that's it that's the truth that would happening. He walks up Mr Simpson here. Aren't you swore you he had always were going always gallows human. How many people survive these clears. Like add mating. This is an incredible book. It has been an incredible interview. I want to thank you very much Doktor Christmas party. This is a postal press, publications that this was a publisher of this book. I know that people might recognize. You are released, SR one eye, these most evil and the tooth.

Thousand eighteen series breaking homicide for people that might just want to contact you is there a way they might contact you or see other work? You have an Amazon page, tell us about any As you know, Twitter is Doctor Chris, more hardy. I'm response. If you have any questions about the book hit me up on Twitter, I respond all follow me direct message I'll always acknowledge what a person follow me and I'll answer questions. I love taking questions are we doing doctor? I saw this Tuesday I'll be on that show. And I'm still do,

the earth is here and there about twitter is the best way to reach out to me and I'm very responsive to it. Thank you very much. It's a fascinating book, evil, thoughts, wicked deeds. Thank you very much. Doktor Chris Mojave, it's been fascinating. You have a great even again. Thank you. Thank you. Ok, we offer more world. I'm so well, thanks again, you have great questions and it was an honour to. I am grateful for the chance to talk with you and thank you so much for reading it. I think it's a great book a thicket stage reform, Brian Scola, who is my co author? It up. He kept me on track, he's a wonderful writer, but does everybody its relative? I feel like I'm in the room.

Decrees that could not be better. For me, lecture will force the devil you your voice, but Brian kept me. Movin absolutely is a brilliant book and thank you very much recommend talking about evil thoughts, wicked deeds. It's been fascinating. Thank you very much. Take a good eye.

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