FACING THE U.S. PRISON PROBLEM 2.3 MILLION STRONG-Shawn Grif | True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers Transcripts

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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gacy Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist and offer Dan asking good evening. This is your host Dan Zawinski for the program to murder the most shocking killers in true crime history, and others that have written about them, Sean Griffith spent over twenty three years

the house of Role journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this, you'll see the details of your own story, the story of a life well, crafted welcome to the House of Rome is Florida, for an armed robbery he committed in nineteen? Ninety two at the age of twenty one he's just recently been conditionally released from prison. He documents and elaborate and exacting detail what is wrong with the correction system in the U S and provides a host of solutions about how to improve it and say the taxpayers millions of dollars, while making our streets safer at the same time facing the? U S, prison problem, two point: three million strong is written by some. One from inside the belly of the beast? Who knows from years of personal experience, what works and what doesn't? Ironically,

Most presents today are not set up to rehabilitate prisoners, but to do the opposite simply to warehouse ever increasing numbers of them. Until they eventually released with little or no practical training to succeed on the outside Sean advocates that the real purpose of prison, in addition to women should be to enable the ninety percent, who will eventually be released to cope on the outside and not return to prison within the first three years. Now, just under half of all release prisoners do Sean show how tough on crime politicians supported by guard unions and private prison corporations have a vested interest in keeping the recidivism rate high instead of fostering imprison, drug rehab, job training, impulse, control and close family ties prisons continually slash these critical programs to hire more guards and build more prisons in California. Seventy percent of the prison budget goes to pay the

one thousand guards it employees, and only five percent vocational programs to reduce recidivism until taxpayers grasp how counterproductive approach truly is in providing public safety they'll be no chance for meaningful prison reform. The book that was featuring this evening is facing the US prison problem. Two point: three million strong with my guest author, Sean Griffith. Good evening Sean and welcome to the program Are you fine thanks We just did an introduction to your book that I kind of cobbled together between Paddle Connors, a review and in your brief synopsis of your book itself, let's get. Oh, thank you very much. Now, let's get to Obviously we know that the

reason why you wrote this book, let's unlike the book itself, which is again a very interesting and fascinating book, because of the perspective that you have obviously now give us the I apologize for this, but let's get this out of the way so weak it will have a real sort of the audience, can have a real balance. Look on who you are and your credentials for writing this then, based on your experiences, so first tell us a little bit about yourself how you grew up and what led you to this incredible experience that you had at twenty one years of age. Take us a little bit back to your child and what led up to your eventual imprisonment, imprisonment and if you could

Please be so kind to tell us what exactly that crime was and what entailed okay sure thing down no problem. I would just like to say first before I even start on. My and some of the things that happen, and first I like to tell you also thank you very much Dan for having me on the program. Then this is a true pleasure. Like I say. First and begin by saying that I failed, the the book to mention that I had made amends with my mother. My father's past now and I did documents and said from my childhood. It wasn't an easy childhood and I'll explain, a little bit here in a second. I just would like to say first and foremost, I did make a mess with my mother. And and as an adult, I don't blame her or blame my childhood today. For some, decisions on as a young adult.

There were instrumental in leading, maybe me and directions that lead to them, but I still want to make the decisions and I'd like to that. First before we go on now, certainly as a child, I can from a family, a mother and father they remain married. There was someone codependent relationship. Extreme codependent relationship. Where my father was he loved my mother very much as a husband. My father was about the best husband you've. He was very loving to my mother, and you just do it on did everything he could to make her happy. My mother, the same to my father, was also very very stoic, and you didn't talk very much to me. He either and were much time talking. The urge fine things to me and my mother took advantage sent someone. I think, of the fact that she still isn't too many of us here, a bad ranking problem, and sometimes he would do. You will take that

on the kids, and sometimes I think, maybe early on my mother- was concerned that he might take it out on her. The girls which are my sisters. I had five in my family and older brother, older sister, and one that I came in and my little sister and then my younger sister. So there were five of us and I think my mother tried to protect my sisters from my father, was drinking and as a result, she felt like the boys could take it better. So my brother and I kind of wore it early on, and then it became the thing where my mother would encourage my sisters to do things. She would encourage them with love, basically to to say things occur, so so my dad would come home after a long day at work and he was drinking and my mother would be in his ear with these things as if verbatim him ass. If she had seen him herself when really she had this reinforced the girls to tell tales and that many times and and me being taken out to the garage, that's that's where the punishment was out out and it was

It wasn't like your average, a back on the butt. I mean it was pretty much beating and it was tough but I mean I grew up very with a very sad childhood and I started running away eight years old before I knew you know things as progress. I was put in a hospital, actually a group home at well and then a group almost like a cigarette with a some alcohol from old english leather cologne that would just born out of a window on the frontier, I have a lighter with any fluid, and I had this one with a little spark are all the staff came in and he was looking for some accolades from the supervisors and he saw through his eyes that I was attempting to commit arson and burning the entire place down and kill everybody in it. That's what he wrote in his report, which was completely falsified, and I was little

trying a lot of cigarette as a team just knew I wasn't supposed to and trying to get a. I was already suffering some delinquent problems. Problems are young age, I mean just from what I had been through. He wrote that report I got. Baker acted into a psychiatric hospital when they found out that my dad had Ford Motor Credit insurance, which lasted for two and a half years. They document all kinds of stuff. That said that I had like four five different personality disorder and everything else- and I was rightly secured two and a half years later, when the insurance going run out, I mean literally two weeks before I ran out so you know I kind of had a sour look on after that, I hit the street. I was just turned fifteen and about about fifteen a half I hit the street, I want to try and live with my dad again and that didn't work. I mean within a day or two, he was posturing. The same way that we were going to be physical with me- and I just told him that that wouldn't happen anymore. So I want to live with my grand father, my grandmother, Grand Father was a great.

And I love him very much, but my grandmother was very strict. She was from the thirty and forty mentality of Just on two one, slash two years in a hospital have had any time with friends or anything like that. So you know I had a curfew like seven hundred pm on the weekends and it was just it was too restrictive, her kid that was wanting, so those you know just turning. Sixteen and I up getting in trouble for joy running my grandfather's car started me got hit hitting the street and then you know I couldn't, along with my grandmother, it was stifling- and I think that's where some of my father guys and in the way that you raise, but so one thing led to another, and how was sixteen almost about seventeen and I met with these people, who offered me a place to live and they were crack addict and I didn't know it. I didn't even know what crack was at the time and they offered me some

and I tried some with them and I became addicted and from seventeen to the age of twenty one. It was just juvenile see one thing after the other, just petty crimes and trying to support my habit going in and out of juvenile detention facilities in and out of jails and prison three times up until You know twenty one on that. Finally, I just it continued to escalate. I just didn't seem to have a grip on my wife. I don't understand what direction I was going and I was just very rebellious. I did not respect the sordid is not respected alls and I just I figured I was a victim, and why not victimize others? Who cares? I mean the people that love me the most victimize me. So why not me victimize other people that was kind of my attitude back then now what exactly give us a say, six months or the last year before

you are twenty one. When you talk about escalation, what had your drug habit escalated to and what were the types of crimes you were resorting to just prior to this arm robbery, and then we can talk about the arm robbery itself. Well, actually, I had been approved in ninety one and had only been out since January 28th of nineteen ninety two, and that was had been for just Grants have stuff as a juvenile was adjudicated to an adult. I violated probation when my brother was killed on a motorcycle because I went to the funeral and he said I wasn't and they wouldn't allow me to go so I, I had any I violated, so I took off and are traveling country country like to Mexico and back and forth warheads. The sum I I just around I a round- and I really want to make a lot of crimes at that time, the last six months, because I've been a prison up to the four months up to that six months, last two months before I committed the robbery I was

Basically, living on the street, I forgot the prison, so I had moved in with my sister. Go ahead: sorry, what are the before you're twenty one on this arm robbery? What are the kind of offenses that you were? What are the offenses, that you were grand theft, auto reason for grand theft auto? on see grounds that a farm I that without my brother, when he does was when he went to see my father wouldn't happen I think it is- and I actually took it upon myself to take the gun. Radio radio was his when I was living in his trailer when he died. I actually got charged my father for that

The grand theft auto was also my mother's because I door rode her car and wrecked it. So I got a grand theft auto and some burglaries when it was on the drugs. I just went crazy. I mean I didn't, have a conscience at all. I broke into probably fifteen homes. When I was seventeen eighteen, I stole a few cars. You know stole stuff out of stores. It was just anything that I could do. To support my habit and also acts as a lot of, because what else only record the call me back then that had it was a very about a call me, and I was very hard to get a job. I tried for two months straight, leading up to the robbery in this. I couldn't get one, so it's of crimes I mean I never had any crimes were, I hope, anybody it just it wasn't to ever harm anybody. I'm not a child molester or a murderer or rapist, or I never even assaulted anybody. I'm not saying that to minimize what I did do because arm robbery was bad and I to be punished for that.

But I just I want to clarify that I never did actually harm anyone in my life now tell us about the armed robbery and tell us about the circumstances prior to that that led to this arm Robbie, because obviously this eventful day, this eventful this event has affected you throughout your entire life and we're talking about some of that effect. Right now, with this book book, this interview so tell us about little prior little bit prior to the event itself. What happened was I moved in with my sister and after the prison on January twenty years, and I try to other with my sister and I also got a job, refinishing furniture. I tried to use one of the skills I have learned in prison and So the first thing that went wrong was, I had the job when I got the job. The man who was the owner of the business told me that a guy named Greg was going. I think it was Greg,

the land where he was going to be coming back from Hawaii, possibly after trying to start a rock band, and he told me I give you the job, it's seven hundred and fifty an hour for me as a kid that was good money. So I said: ok I'll, take it who thinks you guys going to come back from Hawaii with a rock down and a chance of that to me. Would not very high, so I accepted the job, then I moved in with my sister, who, You know I know I wasn't lease and she had an argument with some of the other female managers at the bank, so when she was having argument. Then they found out that an ex con was living in the apartment with her and they called the and the landlord called her and threatened to kick her and her kids out if I wasn't out of there immediately. So even I was on probation, which you know you can't move without permission you can't change, presents a violation. So I tried to contact my probation also. I couldn't contact with them. It was a night and I went ahead and moved out- I didn't want my sister and the kids to get kicked on the street, so I moved out now, I'm sleeping in the truck that I just bought with a new job

I got a down payment on it and it it it making payments and was Jesse was right? Jesse came back from Hawaii so the same time I just went homeless. I also went jobless. Now I'm in the truck- and I was not At that moment, I was not doing drugs, I mean I couldn't afford it, but when I went homeless and I went jobless for two months about actually a month and a half put in applications in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two, the early. Ninety two not recession, I put applications, probably in sixty or seventy different places and didn't get a job at one of them. So for a month and a half I was literally starving I don't have any gas. My truck, I was sleeping in my truck. And from what my mother said, the Ford Motor Company was actually looking to repot the trial, which is my home. So I knew that I violated my probation. I was going back to prison ready anyway by losing my and losing my job. I just felt that I didn't know what to do and

kept looking around looking around trying to odd jobs, and it wasn't because I knew that if they found out that I didn't have a resident, I was we go back to person, so is, wait. I reasoned, which was ill, wasn't logical, but the reason under the stress aware reason it. It was if I make a real quick lit and did some money to pay for rent and get a place. They won't know that I moved I'll, ask permission as if I hadn't moved yet and that will save me from going to prison, and then maybe I'll go to school or do something you know after I get that one lick that was, that was the criminal trying to take over and revert back to what I had known as a kid, and you know I went and told my sister. I was desperate you know and she didn't know. I went into her house and I got the gun that had been my dad and I went and took it and drove all over the state of Florida, desperation. I want Orlando got a ticket there there pulled up. I went to a number of different small towns and cities in Florida to the point where I was almost out of gas

the last change everything I had on this desperate move and has only role in the Sebring. So I had was familiar with Sebring 'cause. That's where I had grown up as a teenager with my granddad and on the street, and I saw a man coming out of the bank account in cash, and I just I went up to him for my truck up to his car, I didn't pull a gun. I left it works that I just walked up to him and I said yeah I pulled my jacket open and he saw the pistol grip on my and my pants with an important one another and he saw You know what this means, and he said yes and I said we'll hand it over and hand over the cash, and I said we are your keys. He said they're in the car, and I said: okay stay where you're at I recently card I got the keys out because I didn't want him to chase chasing have a manslaughter charge or something at least have enough reason to think that through I didn't want to hurt anybody, so I took the keys put them out of pocket jumped in my truck, and that was it. It was about thirty seconds and about thirty.

Five minutes later I got pulled over a ticket speeding, trying it away. And you don't know because you will the look out lookout hadn't come out and I yet so g enforce them. Information to the next county. Once he figured out who I was and We have our speeches and they I pulled me over and that was it. The rest is history as they say. So what were the circumstances? in terms of your family support, what kind of means that they have in terms of being able to afford a really good lawyer ever they savvy about anything like that. Tell us tell us about what happened right after this. Well, you got to with with my family being that I was kind of disowned at when I was put in. Hospital. That was kind of the end of my family. I mean I didn't, really have any relationship with him now my sisters, I did my youngest,

my own sister. I still maintain contact with their do. They were just kid uneasily. You know, there is no there's no family support. When I came for the adults, there was no attorneys. I went in. I got a public defender who happened to be a prosecutor just the week before he just switched over because the case loads, and he was a basically a prosecutor having, as you know, a fake attorney, and when I went in, I told him some things. He asked me to tell him some things and I did, and he actually went into the court with me and when the prosecutor offered seventeen years, he stood up He said it's just his name is John Loman is Attorney John Roman. He stood up and he said a your honor. I think the states made a mistake. We've calculated twenty two years, your owner, not seventeen and the state. You know with flabbergasted she drew pull up her papers, real, quick and look at them and said: oh, yes, you're right, your honor that it is twenty two years by the way it's twenty two years of states offering. You are as a plea bargain. So I was facing

I sentence or that, but I knew I asked the attorney. Why did you just do that and he said I did that because I have an ethical obligation to court. Honest I said: Utah to write my record down, and you told me to give you all my points so that we would miss anything. So if the state had something, actually you didn't want any surprises, I said you didn't tell me that to tell you all that what I told which some of it may not even be active, because it's just from a kids memory. I don't even know some of those things I didn't get in trouble for because I work through programs and stuff early early on like like the jail, I remember you trusty, like you, would work for you know like extradition. Things like like that and then would would lower like the state will work with bar little program to lower the charges or whatever. So this guy actually got me five more years,

which is what I'm doing now I mean based on conditional release, so he you you went to the did a I've. I feel sorry for him because he is a duty counsel and he recommended more time than the. Other the prosecutor. It actually offered what did he tell you beforehand normal lawyers will tell you the likelihood of the scented you're going to receive and when you're going to receive it. What what did you He told me where he told me only. Did he told me to do my own calculation that he was gonna Edith? He was gonna base it on whatever the stay offer, but that I needed to do my own calculation with so so that that way there was no and no no so so other words. The state did their calculations, which will prob more accurate later on down the road I filed on it. I couldn't seem to get the course to get any relief on it, but it could be. The state was actually accurate and we're

Chaplin was not his job too. I mean the state offers seventeen years. So he told me that whatever the state offers maximum by guidelines, that's what you're going to get so he for you to do your own calculations calculations. What is the? What are the guidelines? Tell us what no. These go another word with the ILO. The guidelines that are based on the point that you have in your record. If you've been in trouble before being that they were adjudicated, my juvenile. All I had was a juvenile record, so what they were doing was carry my juvenile record as an adult record which were they were totally incorrect going because I have any violence were harmed. Anybody in my life, they should never have done, that's only for extreme cases, but down here in Florida. You know every case is extremely some counties, so you know they they gave me it based on my record and they made me. Calculate what those points were, regardless of whether they were accurate, inaccurate. He encouraged me to put anything I could think of even extra stuff, less

just make sure that there's no surprises so me trying to be no forthright with it. I don't want any surprises. I want to know. I gave em all the points in it gave it to him and let him figure it out. So he figured out wait. Two years state stay forgot. Seventeen. So. Your shell shocked you hadn't expected anything like that. Obviously you're, not one nine years old and in tell us about you, be because a cause concentrate a fair amount of Florida because of such of the great in some of the great stories like Charlie Christie. Here with fantastic

Really good example: that's not very dry, and it's very, very interesting. This character hopefully tell us about the sentence ng and then maybe we can. Even we may be even even talk about Charlie, but at least talk about the kind of policy they had in terms of truth in sentencing, when you've got twenty one years. What the possibilities of parole and what is the likelihood of how much, how many years you're going to do and in practical terms? What does that. Twenty one, twenty two years, it sure well, I actually did. I did want to there was I did for ten years and I was released on anytime that I earn now under the old system in ninety two. You could do sixty five percent of your time and you would be released, however, because my crime was considered a violent crime because of the title, the violent crime,

The threat of violence, in other words, arm robbery. There's, you know, there's a potential for that. They they gave me the max that they could based on those guidelines and that you know, with a mandatory three years I had to do for possession of the pistol they gave me twenty. All these were concurrent they only twenty two years for the armed robbery. Twenty two years, for reaching my hand into the window, they actually punished me with a possible by life. Armed only with a deadly weapon. In other words, like I eyes, an entire,

different structure something that had nothing to do with the robbery when it was integral to the robbery. It was actually to keep from hurting anybody, so they gave me another twenty two years for that give me fifteen years for possession of fire by convicted felon and, like I said, the three years for the farm mandatory, so I ended up doing fourteen and a half years being that I had the violent rate like that violence in it, though they gave me everything on condition, release afterward, so in other words, the twenty two years was a complete twenty two years that I have to serve, whether it's inside or outside there is no parole, there's no discretionary parole in Florida. It's just a game time system under the system. Now it's eighty five percent back, then it was sixty five percent. So I did fourteen and a half years on the twenty two and then got out and was

violated. I was put on condition release with the seven pm curfew and we violated because my car broke down, and I literally I was late for curfew. I called she knew she was there waiting for me. I showed her the wires everything had been changed. It was brand new, as oil sprayed everywhere from where the oldest sending unit had and she the issue here she told me she was a victim of crime. Twice, she didn't don't believe game time and most I could prove it. Otherwise you get more proof in that. I wasn't a report in the morning and get violated and sent back to prison. So I panicked I mean I just did four and a half years rehabilitated. I got a good education, but I wasn't prepared for that. I mean there was a simple mistake: it really was not my fault and I just couldn't I couldn't fathom the idea going by the prison for like eight years since my son's so next morning I went instead and reported to the manager's office found out he was in.

A hospital, the manager that had access to the electronic database, so I can get a receipt for the show that my affidavits to show that my villa had actually been repaired. So when I went there he was he had cancer. He couldn't get to it I was stuck because now I vomited twice, because by not reporting to go get the you're evidence and not be able to get it. It looks really bad looks like I just I had no concern for the rules at all, so it took me like one thousand one hundred and twelve days. I finally got this stuff that all the affidavits, the Whitney reports the receipt showing my behavior up to that point- and I turn myself in when I turn myself in I say I'm not guilty for the violation of the curfew, which started everything to begin with, but found guilty for not Requ

in the next morning and instead going getting the paperwork and turning myself in later, so I was sent back to prison for five and a half years for that curfew, violation which I would sound not guilty for actually for not reporting because of it. Let me do it right and that sent me in for another five and a half, so that was basically twenty years. And I'm I'm still working, because I have twenty two years and then I also had some game time loss and actually have a. I had an attempt to skate in ninety three right after I won in a disk. I could accept the fact that I was basically doing me what was a licence at the time and I got the dumpster stupid move, trying chronic trying to get out of prison didn't work, but so I got two more years for that. So I ended up with a twenty four year sentence: total yeah

I've gone twenty and I'm finishing the remainder of the now now I know that you have. This is a very, very comprehensive, but not so dry sort of expose and an examination. Of the? U S penal system in terms of what actually happens, as opposed to what people may perceive. How private takes is very important in this. The media's role in perpetuating the myths as well, and how politics and unions in in public and stable state institutions corrections in you offer tangible in a real solutions based on you,

experience your experiences. What we want to do focus here, because, because really would take about four hours to talk about your entire book, it really would, but we want to talk about your prison experience and, let's have it apply to the more serious criminal. Even though that's not with your focus, because I understand, and probably the the audience understand very sophisticated audience as well, is that the vast majority of people in prison are not so dangerous, even though the people are realize it there's you know a multitude of crime and, and they think crime is intensifying and- and that is certainly it's well reported on but really the program is to murder. So we really want to talk about because

I know that doing twenty years in prison, you were at least rubbing elbows with some of the most violent people in US prisons and and what I'm interested in talking about is some of the policies and how they would apply to safety, because I think that's what people and what you mentioned in the book and talk about in the book too, is that there's a real misconception about public safety being actually performed in these prisons in the prison system itself, so Let's get into some of the issues that you have examined in your book, let's have a little bit of that talk about the actual experience that you've seen actual violent criminals and the failure by the state and policies and government to actually faced that really. The thing that really prepared-

with this whole industry, a key sewing and politics is because people's fear tell us a little bit from your viewpoint what you ve seen in over twenty years in prison knocker than what I that's, that big, bigger the huge question I say an hour so okay I would begin by saying that saying that one of the problems is the sentencing schemes and Florida, like of some of the states of adjusted new like work even Texas later in some ways his adjusted their sentencing schemes. Florida is one of the worst when it comes to holding out on these minimum mandatory drugs and about the fact that just attempted the possibility of water,

and Rich got vetoed it of the governor. So I mean. Is there something? It is so the eighty five percent situation means that everybody that goes that get sent to prison those eighty five percent. When I was in prison, I saw numerous cases where guys when they're for driving while license suspended or revoked, I mean it's been doing five years, not to changing the address on their license, which is, in a third degree felony in Florida and doing five.

I mean literally five years in prison for something that probably should have been a fine or something, but certainly would have been in Canada and most of the northeast states in the United States, also, but anyway, so sensing kind of begins, where I focus the book to begin with in chapter one, because I think that that's the core of a lot of where it begins and judges down in Florida are not given nearly as much discretion as they used to be it's the prosecutors primarily to control

Who get sentenced and how much they get sentenced and the judge is just kind of a person that just kind of sits there and he doesn't have very much power here or show them very much power at all anymore and the prosecutors then offer, for instance, the public defender certainly can't offer a deal of cash or anything like that for say witnesses to stand up and testify on behalf of the defendant. But the state can offer something. That's worth much more and that's somebody freedom for them to testify against other people. So in many ways the sentencing and the prosecution in the United States, especially in states like Florida. The prosecutor is the one that controls everything through the legislature. We have very conservative legislature here in Florida and they have passed through the help of Charlie Chris. As a matter of fact, he was one of instrumental players in that sentencing. All the different sentencing games like ten twenty

Which means you know you, you brandished a gun, shoot a gun or you shoot somebody with a gun yeah. You know it's ten twenty life, but there's many instances with that, for instance, the further with a guy named Eric Wyant, who he had a girlfriend this guy and somebody that is kept for, her and you know just constantly harassing her one day, a whole ton of people came his way way his girlfriend. He had a A permit, pull pistol out shot in the air, shot it to scare the people away and he was given a life sentence, I mean for shooting a gun know I guess in the direction of people or whatever, so it's sentence schemes like that driving a. Suspended mandatory minimums that really do not take into consideration whether a crime is truly violent or just the threat of violence or just the term that has a violent term attached. The crime to express her to make it for the prosecutor can be more harsh. The legislature in Florida is the main.

Reason why these do now. We may wonder why why the legislature, unless it's just you know I just extreme conservatives, why would they continue to? all these minimum mandatory sentence is- and this is where I think that that is the special interest from my experiences and all the research I did. A lot of special interests behind the scenes are are actually giving the campaign finance to these politicians anare legislatures across the United States, and a lot of these special interests are correct. Officer unions or like, for instance, you have very large unions across the country that chapters and those chapters are controlled by the crushing Austrians which any state, don't have one at least one hours. You see the police, Benevolent Association, crush officers,

chapter and then now I believe in Florida. The Teamsters Union has actually taken it over with a chapter for the correction officers. Now what happens is a lot of these people? Go they'll talk to these legislatures in these small rural towns? Well, they know they can get the votes based on building more printed and they build all these prisons in North Florida away. From the same, the prisoners away from the children and the same legislatures. Then, once they've built all these prisons through these special interests that are selling their campaign coffers, they then have to fill them with bodies. Well, the only way they're going to sell more bodies is if they have so many laws that are ridiculous, that people are being arrested and put away either for or you know, definitely not commensurate with what the crime is. If it's a crime at all, in some cases like I said with

driving and stuff. It's not even really a crime. I mean it's more of a you know, an ordnance violation so between the prosecutors, the legislature, giving the prosecutors Carte Blanche when it comes to sentencing, taking discretion away from the judges which that's from the reasons why judge Hale Stancil of the circuit here in Florida gave my book a review. On the back cover because he actually wrote some articles in the american BAR journal about the same thing is sensing schemes, and you know some of the ways this happens with the judges can not use downward departures in their sentencing to give drug offenders any type of treatment or anything else, simply because the legislature has taken the judicial branch and made it a sub branch and an Easter so the judicial branch does not have the authority when it comes to sentencing.

Florida and many of the states in the United States, as it should like one of the other judges down here, made a statement, and MR stance or judge dances article and said the judicial, the congressional and the executive branches are supposed to. In this country remain neutral or at least remain. You know where they have their own independent. Our he demagogues must, through the help of the media, which tends to regard as a lot of press handout other given by these these public interest, your access to public relations, firms of these corrections, agencies listening, usually regurgitate the press handout, a quiz show violent. Way out of proportion to what it is, and then, whenever these tough on crime and get up there and pound the pulpit with their their diatribe against crime, of course, The public is in a friendly in fear of terrorism and

and rampant drug use and process. Prose I mean everything they see on tv is a distorted view, and so I put some of the onus of our correctional problem and and two point three people, two point: three million in prison in the United States states a allowed onus on the media. I mean liberal or conservative. It doesn't seem to matter it just say: pound the tough on crime perspective. Until we reach the economy now, with a deficit, is probably to be surpassed. Unsurpassable brought careful and alone, lot of the monies that are being wasted on these corrections. Programs around the country in these prisons, in this building boom of the 90s and even in some states continuing, is much related to people making their pockets fat so that they continue to increase the membership dues prosecutors, advancing their careers for political office, and you know the politicians

doing the same thing by getting their palms butter of the groups, are advancing themselves financially and career wise through expanding PRT systems. So I mean in in a nutshell, that's kind of how it works. At least here in Florida, and many other states have researched many of those data, given many examples of the way that that works, and then, of course, the Parole Commission in Florida is controlled by the legislature and although they do have some say they do have some power on their own, where they can be influenced by judges of the legislature, but I must be put in the power there. All of them have law enforcement backgrounds each and every one of them had eaten law enforcement background or victim. We backgrounds in Florida grounds. Many other states, Georgia, Texas. Number of them that I researched. I provided this in the book in the poll chapter. Well, most of them come from being victor.

Advocates and law enforcement. So I mean, if you look at the entire picture like that, if you look at the from prosecution sentencing, prison building for the unions and the private prison industry, especially the unions here in Florida cause the private Israel is now mother foothold here, but not mean combined, if you look at all of these different things, you see he's all the reason. It's not an increase climate rates have been dropping in Florida and in the United States overall for many many years, and it was way before the sentencing schemes were hatched in these states to build the prison problem. So you know it's not what the public thinks it is it's not because of increasing crime rates. It's not because of violent crime. Most of the people in There have been served much time in prison for are not in for violent crimes. Most of them were for up until just region. Most from Europe for for drug burglaries or know things that people really could have probably been rehabilitated if they hadn't sat prison for,

ten or twenty years with with very little offers them, so some guys imprisonment. Was you before. Then there are some guys in prison that absolutely should never ever get out. I mean I met some of them I had them as roommates, because I had an escape charge in ninety three. I ended up sleeping with the worst of the worst, and I lived in the dorms with the worst of the worst, rightly or wrongly, so I could say that there's many people that just don't deserve up some of the violent pedophiles rapist and some of the just cereal minded killers. I mean that you shouldn't be released, but that's not the majority, that's probably ten to fifteen percent and the rest are being treated by prosecutors and everyone else. The same ended getting there not getting much of a consideration the rehabilitation, how to change their lives, which then results to further victimization,

when they get out, and the cycle just continues to repeat itself very little. Also I'd like to shortly I'd like to be able to talk about the children and the families as well, because they are, they are devastated by the prison system and the way that they're treated- Is there a responsibility? You you talk about actually even the origins of corrections to a certain degree. Do you think the? the founding fathers really had in mind this. I mean obviously that this is an aberration of the original model, but

What do you think their regional ideal was if you're going to deprive someone of their freedom- and you get into this very interestingly in in the book about what should we do with prisoners? What should be the goal that we have for prison? You say ninety percent of prisoners garner or going to be released anyway. What? What is your idea for the vast majority? Not this ten fifteen percent, violent criminals and we're gonna go back we're going to talk about that again, but for the vast majority of people, which should be the goal of corrections in your mind. In my mind, the goal corrections of first and foremost be to focus strongly on the prisoners, belief system and what I say by that is everybody has a history a lot of times we meet people who have been in prison or who are preaching to the choir about change. That should be made reforms. Reforms like I am in my book, hopefully from a different perspective, but you know

If you were like you know, we've heard this before you know honest guys had a bad childhood. You know that, but the problem is is that each and every person in this world has a history and every history is built of is for references that we build our life and our actions are behaviors on if a person has a belief structure that is based on some very, very abusive circumstances they felt trapped? They were taught to believe that they're, a failure or the environment itself constantly reinforce these things. Whether a very conservative minded person believes so or not whether they agree with it or not. The fact is, if you don't change that person to outlook on life, that criminal out with Homelight that going to come and victimize your grandmother or your mother or your. Mister or someone down the line, because he still has that same?

criminal mentality, the same criminal belief system, so the one the first goal of the correction system should be to delve deeply into the person's history. What help them to develop the ideas and beliefs of finance personal convictions that they have and then help them, replace those with positive ones and that's basically, psychology, so psychology at first a very strong rehabilitative program of belief, revamping and this restructuring retire personality and and with the system, and I can be done. I do this myself with help from mentor and with the help of many books with us to be the first up. The second step should be done to educate them, provide the. A means of education, and when I say education I mean including the work ethic chapter, two is called what happened to teaching and promoting the work ethic, because many of the prisoners go in and they're given two options: either given the slave labor option or the lazy labor option

maybe they're gonna go out for no pay. Ninety eight in Florida are going to go out for no pay and working details or bus rocks kitchens are cooking food or whatever it is. In their mind, they're being exploited, so this just adds further to the anti social mentality that many of these guys have. The second would be to teach them education skills that they can truly use drug treatment to help them get over the drugs while are in prison long before they ever get out and also an education that can help them advance beyond the meaning, that they had whenever they went in many of them, don't even have geds. I talked for sixteen years in there and saw the prison system after I got my education

the GT to many of the guys, but those programs have recently been cut as well and many of the state because the economy, so, I would say, a combination of treatments focus in psychology first and education and the work ethic. Those three things are integral to a person having a healthy perspective of life and not being hateful and feeling entitled the feeling. Let you know that life them something until they change that mentality, the crime situations not going to get better. How responsible are our prison conditions via this exaggerated? the thing for us, a minor crime, just sort of who would suffice to say just unjust sentences and put it

the elbow with hardened criminals and the threat of threat violence in jail itself. How itself is there a great many of these prisoners that, because of this their circumstances in prison end up being eventually a violent criminal. Oh yes, absolutely there are many, many guys go in with their over the horse, sensing schemes that that just send them away for years and years. They should have had to serve and yeah there's kind of the attitude of prisoners. I don't. I mean I literally had probably two to three or maybe four thousand roommates Had many intimate conversations late at night when the doors, the cell doors locked and were sealed in? And you know these guys are just you know their they're very bitter, and some of them rightfully so because they feel like society is

from them away and that these sentences, once they get another round these these hardened criminals, you know, I mean the influence in many cases they actually especially young guys they go in. You know they're dumped in there with a bunch of old bitter wolves, they have no nothing better than what how to be a. I I mean to to be con artists and how to be a convict, and so the the guys go there. There's nothing really else. There's no other mentors there's, no other people that are really there to say, hey, look, there's another way. It was a better way. Instead, they look up the guy that came from where they came. They came from the hood. They came from, from the trailer part that came from the streets and they listen to these guys are telling listen man, you know, there's nothing out there for you. The society couldn't give two hoots about. You know the public defenders, overloaded they're, going to send in you as much as they can, because they want to keep your body in here. They want to keep you in and out as quickly as they can put you right back in and a lot of these young guys who normally would could have been saved early on. They become

They become wolves themselves and they learn those those things they learn that mentality. In that perspective, and it's very hard change once they adopted deeply bully. There is sentencing schemes and what they do in sending people away without considering what the what how they are as human beings. In other words, could they be change? Did they bore somebody? Did they really harm summer in a way that that they should be punished for twenty thirty forty years war, or someone that maybe, instead of getting five or ten years, could do two years and maybe some labour were there for so you get incentivize their labor and give them the option of getting education or working going to perform, I mean I don't. I don't think there should be coddled either if they reject the programs that are provided to them if they were which they're not here, for I mean there's a part there. The parents of those programs, but they're not they're, not true way to run, but if they were

Given those options, I think that it would change many of those guys perspective when they get out, especially if they had a support system after they were released as well. It's got to be before after Dan, because it can't be one of the other one of the other doesn't suffice, because if you give guy programs and stuff that inside you release him with nothing and no support system. Fifty fifty bucks, a bus ticket It's only a matter of time in an economy like we're suffering right now until most of them, and it excluding a behavior, but it's just. This is logical Most of them are going to revert back to what they know. Is it really cheaper, do let to do with prisoners in prison, to re, educate them or educate them and re integrate them into society? Isn't some of the stuff Ideal you're talking about education, a lot a lot of prisoners who are illiterate and skill right. Some of this laziness is

you know in grain, generationally some of these people's uncles and father in prison and there's some really quite damaged people how they got there is regardless, and you talk about altering someone's personal, I mean just a little bit of idealism. Isn't it depends on how young I mean if you can get guys a bit before the age of thirty, especially before the age of thirty, three or thirty four. They generally don't have so many references that they're, not willing to listen and try something new, most guys hit rock bottom other coming at present and a lot of times, they're depressed and they're dejected and they're actually in the right frame of mind, especially at first when they're first sentence to make changes, especially if they're given an option. They think that there is an incentive, in other words, okay, you're, going to go through this program.

And this is the program problem. We has to be set up very specifically, that most programmes that I have found or piecemeal once asked aspect might one program. I hit this aspect of the problem, another program programmes This is fast like, but none of them that I've seen so far have been comprehensive, have been submitted to come close, but none of them that have come comprehensive to hit all of the problems at once, yeah once a guys. Fifty years old and he's been in prison, six or seven times I mean yeah the likelihood of it is not very, very very high, but you know I mean a lot of those guys if you just gave them some type of way to sustain themselves. They probably wouldn't come back either. It's not saying that you would change the personality, but there's a good chance. Many of them wouldn't come back if they felt like they had a different. You know and you're right a lot of them are, but when it comes to eighteen. One thousand nine hundred and twenty year olds, even up to thirty. I've met many of them and actually help them rehabilitate, actually help teach many of them, while they're in prison and solve a make a difference and stay out. So it can be done it may,

seem idealistic, but I can tell you that The only other option is to continue building more and more prisons, and you know what with what's happening in this country, right now that's not possible fan, So I mean the only really real option is to try to change these people. At least a large percentage of them how many years do you think you really needed to be in prison if you were given the necessary progg, and how many years is, do you think is when it gets to be counter productive and destructive, psyche and and to write your question yeah you know from when I was in their eyes. I think I think, for an armed robbery, no injuries, no gun point anybody out to say my own, because that's the easiest one to deal with right now. I think if I had done seven years

where the first two years were maybe hard labor with a small income from it, a real small one, but with the ability to earn more. If I good behaviour and continue to to learn the work ethic and then you know was given up to after maybe three or four years start at you know hired if I didn't have, which I earn my ged, my but let's say, had be given the opportunity for higher education and those things. I really think that seven years been rehabilitated? I really do not twenty. I mean it was definitely overkill after eight or nine years, I mean I mean I've of fact after seven years it was overkill because at that point it's just the institutional mentality starts to set in, and that's not what Once I mean they don't people are getting out. Ninety over ninety percent of these people are going to in most states in the United States. Why? Why make them worse, I mean why put them through something that's going to make them hate you

society as a whole and don't look at society and say how these these these victims what I call the innocent bystanders, they may be in some bystanders from society's perspective, but from the from the criminal from the conflict perspective there not innocent bystanders because they're, either too lazy or so hateful that they're not concerned with what we're discussing right now so that gets out things. You know they victimized me when I was in there. So what's herd of five victims, then there's no there's nobody in this- and I everybody knows they'll make the vote or they ignore the vote and either way they're they're becoming part of the problem. So I mean that you wear the I'm not agreeing with that perspective, because I believe strongly personal responsibility, my life now, but I'm just telling you what it is that that's how it is. That's that's the skinny of it from the inside whether it's right or wrong. I don't think that's. Even the question right now is in question: is what can we do to reduce recidivism? What can we do to reduce victimization says

in the future and what's happening right now. That's not working. I know it's a little off topic, but what is your solution for violent criminals that can't be rehabilitated? Rape instead of files and murderers are proven, especially, you know we're talking about PETA files with proven predators, violence, people, people who have been proven to be violent and non a non rehabilitated. What can what can the prisons to do that? They are doing now? What are their policies that increase. The or decrease public safety. One of the things that they're is is they're somebody. The present system itself has very little little incentive anymore because, because they've taken the programs away because they don't have very little,

The pole. Chances for most people anymore is nil and states that are conservative. With these sentence schemes and these correctional schemes so being that there's very little incentive. What the only thing that's left for them to do is to put the most violent criminals in with the least violent criminals, because what ends up happening. Is they never get unity? What they do is they create a snitch system, an informant system using the short timers to inform on the long timers. Now this causes much violence in the prisons, because then the long time is, of course, in the short timers, once they're trained to become informants There's very little they can do to protect himself once a guy finds out he's an informative, just stab him to death. I mean: what's it matter, I mean he's got life anyway, so the prison system creates more problems by putting a short time and a young guys in the people who made.

Otherwise been rehabilitated, putting them in with the violent criminals. That is a big problem, because it's it's training some of the people who could have been price fixed and help. It's train them. To turn to violence and teaching and that the only way they can survive in prison is through violence, so that what they do to help try to control the population then you know, but they don't really, I'm not sure exactly house like an experiment, but that's that's. Definitely one of the main problems inside anyway, while you get it

I mean one of the provisions I thought was interesting. You know for everybody's heard about three strikes and your out and then the guy stole some pizza, but those were were not. Those were separate where three strikes and your out but nonviolent crimes wasn't the three strikes and your out. But there were again, I don't know if it was Charlie Chris, but one of the people that you profiled in the book he talked about in the book who let who led for legislation that, even if it wasn't on violent crime, three strikes and you were gone for twenty years- explain that yeah. That's that's the prisoner. There's a couple of different did a couple different sentencing schemes they have in Florida, one of the prisoner re offender releasing act, and that means that if someone is released on a violent crime in the past- and let's say they hit the street in there starving

I mean literally, and they go into a store and they steal a loaf of bread, really steal something and they're really trying to survive. They're, not so much the criminal mentality more but they're they're starting so they go and they still a loaf of bread at least ill, and they get a sentence. Is that are doubled and sometimes triple because of the fact that they have a violent, chrome or past see those the kind of laws that I'm saying that that should be changed in order to reflect the exact behavior of the person. Instead of just these easy cookie cutter kind of sensing schemes that really don't take society's best interest in mind, also to expand a little bit more on the guys inside that have violent crimes, I don't think Dan the violent pedophiles, violent murders. I mean premeditated murders. I do think there's a difference because manslaughter when it comes to vehicle manslaughter. I mean the violent guys

Dan, there are many of them that should never get out and what I think the first thing they should do is separate. Those guys from the nonviolent guys. First off, it's not nice to destroy people's lives simply because it's convenient for the correctional systems are because they have no incentives remaining, because we got so tough and so strict, and so you know to call in on these things that they had no one seller, so you know out ok for convenience to control. The population will put the nonviolent with a guy You know a lot of guys are getting murdered as a result, but it's ok. You know we'll just put the true murders and with and let them kill them. Let them rape them. Let me store them for money, You know if it loans them in their damage when they get out. Oh well, you know it serves our purpose. I mean that's kind of the attitude. So what I would do is separate them first, then I would create life or programs which we did have. Actually one life for program here in Florida is just kind of a pilot project where they were getting federal funds. Like most,

programs in Florida, where they're kind of abuse for the money that they get from federal government, but in that case separate them, make it little more humane. I know know this may not sit well some of your listeners, because you know a guy who rates and main children or anything I mean what does he deserve better than maybe a cold cell and some bread and water, and I agree well the same time you're going to have a country, that's humane, if you're going to have countries that are on the forefront, civil rights and acting as humane people people. I think that once somebody's put away- yes, they should be put away forever. Do I think that they should be mentally tortured everyday or sort of circumstances it amounts to that. No, I don't. I think the guys that need to remain in forever should be put in special units that are meant to help people forever and give them some type Hadi Crest, something to keep them from going insane, something that would then you know jobs are to get pay, they can go by the

ten, maybe they could do something to help support their children when they're out there they have some by science and child support so in other words, more of a life type. Program for those guys was ten thousand and then but a life, a program that takes into consideration These guys are never ever getting out and separate them and treat them as humanely, as you can but make sure that they never get out and separate them in sentencing separate them in pro schemes. Make sure that you have the guys you can get a chance to that. They then get a chance that's what I would do. I mean internally, that's what I would do and then I would set a number of things up. For the guys that are eventually going to get out so that they would actually have a really good chance. One of my things that I put in the reentry chapter chapter thirteen, the idea that rehabilitation starts waiting for release and it should continue

release. So a lot of these guys should have mentors already on the street, lined up whether their psychologists or just a mentor in the community and that's been proven in studies- have a greater experts on juvenile offenders and younger offenders so start real rehabilitate, like we spoke about, have a follow up, have a connection that builds at least a few months for the trainer in addition to the streets. You got somebody out there, you're, not scared. You got. Somebody can go talk to you after God's ten one thousand five hundred and twenty years life is so much. Different on the street. I mean it was for me when I got out, and you know they need somebody there- that they can. They can talk to. Is the stress it's too bad? And look, madam I'm thinking about reverting back to crime? I don't want to what should I do because, right now there is nothing like that out. There's nobody there for them!.

Except for a fearful. You know the fear of a probation officer. That's this juice job is to weaken or lessen their case load. I put them back as quickly as it can. So are you talk about two recidivism and how that really does cost the taxpayer, but really some of the things had a do you answer critics who say, listen, there's a lot of people, especially in tough times now that can't get an education and lost their homes, can't get a job and you're talking about training. Reintegration counseling may be monitoring, it costs a lot of money to incarcerate, people period. You do talk about how there are private people making money from labor initiatives in prisons as well. But really is this worth, and this is a significant, the kinds of plans and and things that you outline in your book. Is it significant savings to do this thing? That seems almost

foreign to people now to actually deal with the prisoner with the is they're going to get out and the train them rather than let them this sitting prison? Is it that significant it is it? Is it really that counter productive? What they're doing imprisons now here there is if they had the up. This is the third programs like spell out in detail the book if those were empty

minute much, let me let me say this too, and that's why I explained it in chapter twelve, explaining about the cost of some of these things. You know. One of the things I don't propose in the book is to increase the debt. I don't increase the taxpayer spending if anything in this reduces the taxpayers thing that in fact it significantly reduces it in the long term. Now we can't look at individual. Ok. What is this program costs? Ok, this costs many dollars. If people try to put it in a little box like that, then no you're right, it wouldn't be significant savings. Instead, they would be looking expenditures rather than savings. However, if their combined with agriculture and industry inside the prisons, that incentive, is the prisoners as it teaches them to work. You know. You're talking just in Florida is a hundred thousand bodies. Only two thousand of those are working a real job, the rest of them are,

Working hour a day or two hours a day or something that's mean or nothing at all, and so, if you actually take that labor force of ninety eight thousand men and women in Florida, and you actually put them to work? That's the biggest workforce quarter. I mean I would really be the largest individual work government. You know sponsored workforce and the state, the money that could be produced by those guys for those prisoners could pay for their incarceration. It could pay for many of the court costs and restitution to victims. There could be a victim fund set up the the monies to try to children who suffer terribly as a result of of prisoners, behaviors and and their crimes. They could get child support. The mothers who were out there single mothers rather try to care for the children. The grandparents who have who've been charged basically been dumped in their laps. You know they were obviously have some money to take care of these of these children and so many of the benefits of these programs. They can't

calculated in one simple calculation? You have to look at all of the other benefits and welfare benefits that are provided by the state and by taxpayers as a corollary, either direct or corollary result of prisoners being, prison and getting out and were sitting so? Yes, I mean when it comes down to it. We did the mass on a number of these things and it's it's well and above what the taxpayer the thing right now it's fifty thousand dollars fifty dollars a day. I believe here in and floor, but a round between twenty five to fifty Actually older and dates are up because the medical costs the seventy to eighty thousand per year. So if you could save, let's say you could save just forty thousand by

you know a prisoner shipping and and and making a decent wage and paying for the majority of his correctional calls for war, even if it was a thirty thousand and then that guy from coming back provide the welfare through child support, rather than taxpayer welfare to the to the children and provide himself with some type of a. College courses or no money to actually have one is released, so you don't feel desperate a month or two after is released and and motivate provide the impetus for endorsement of the crime, as if all that

Things are gonna consideration, there is, is without a doubt, and there should be a push for these for these overall, you changing programs in the corrections system in the United States, and I know that's not the sort of says in Canada now. I understand that completely different situation. Well, it was completely different, but that we don't have private prisons as of yet, but we are, we have. We have our own for comes two right now I like to, but you have the unique system. You have a really unique situation with incarcerations re rates that you outlined in your book compared with Russia, so we think we all of all the draft and these well the big bad Americans, I guess either were were America, rife with criminals or maybe there's something to what you're saying outline just briefly the, the collusion and the members in how

this whole thing really works, I mean people would say they. It's maybe inefficient, and maybe there was good intentions, you know, gone bad and and there their circumstances and maybe there's costs cutbacks that have to be taken in consideration. So some of these things happen outline the collusion, the people that are responsible in the prison industry, for contributing to this know basically reversal of what the system is supposed to do and and tell us why these players are doing what they're doing. Ok! Well! This is one area where I actually feel a little bit of trepidation, because the people who are responsible for these things are still responsible for them even and believe it or not, there's a little bit of nervousness on my part in the book of naming them because they're still very powerful, they're, very influential, it's

the correctional officer unions, primarily in Florida and other states. It's the private industry Corrections Corporation Corporation America GEO I think its management training corporation out of Utah there's a number of huge prison industrial that makes up the prison industrial complex where it's private industry that is constantly like, for instance, we had corrections race in America. Thing was in Colorado that funded a number of the campaigns there, and you know later it was found that the same people who they had funded to be elected, turn around and and gave them contracts for huge contracts for new prisons to be built, pay for the prisons and then paid them annual contracts to run those prisons. So I mean, I think, that the connection between the correctional officer unions, the police, Benevolent Association, used to be the one here in Florida, I'm I'm going to step lightly when I talk about that.

Teachers union that just took over because when I was in and up to this point I haven't seen an don't know of any surreptitious activities, and I want to be very careful not to make false accusations, but I can just say that the unions, up to this point in most states, is the Correctional Correctional officers, the second the first war, but the ccpoa in California spent hundreds of hundreds of thousands of dollars to get tougher crimes, tougher sentencing laws on crimes. That really should not have been that's where that three strikes in California came from that you were talking about earlier. You know that came from the Correctional Peace officers association out there I mean there very, very powerful, and so those groups, the crash offshore unions, the private industry when it comes to the company, some companies, I just name have many examples- are provided in the book showing that they pay for for campaigns and then later down the road they push the lobby

for those same legislators or governors or whomever to push for certain bills to be brought forth before the house and that and then the Senate and those bills many times our past, because so many of the of our politicians, are in the pockets of these groups. So you know I mean who is? Is it's actually going to be able to speak out against this? The prisoner his voice was even, are you have no vote, your a voice. Nobody listens. Nobody cares the size too busy with the economy. Right now everything is going on shit to worry, and I'm just day today. You know when they turn on the tv and they say another killing, another shooting another drug operate. You know I mean who really cares? Nobody does nobody. Nobody has the time to care. So what I've also proposed in chapter ten, which is called prisoners? Families are not the criminals

is a union of prisoners, family members and loved ones, and media and activists and reformers who were interested and actually creating a counter to the huge unions and other groups that actually have been set membership dues, they're very organized they usually have national, innovation with states actors. I mean who's gonna. Canada really is going to counter and let someone like me, gets out and tells the public what's going on like I have been facing us for the problem and and lets them know this is this: is the option you can either continue ignoring it continue believing what the media's tell me about the crime rate when their sick lower than air than they were in the seventies, and you know being misled and and watch the deficit grow in the back row. So if that's what society today once then, we should distance

getting the same patterns that were going otherwise if they want something different, if they want something that works and reduces the victimization of their family members in the future on average, then let's come let's with the counter and that's what I try to do in chapter tennis- show we need to create the prisoner family union. That's what I propose: a prisoner family union of family members who are non criminals who have just as much right to vote as any correction officer does prison system and create a union to counter the lobbying and the campaign finance the same way they do. Since it's almost impossible in America to change the campaign finance laws in a way that they will truly work to represent the people, so if that's the case, then it looks like the only way to counter that is to create you know the other.

Three hundred pound gorilla so that way, the laws and things are balanced by a reasoned perspective of what society itself once rather than you know what one small, but very powerful group wants. Do you think the court, starting with the courts, possibly the police? I imagine the police, the courts, prosecutors judges and then corrections afterwards and then up to parole. Do you think that they're really shooting fish? In a barrel, they really dealing with lesser criminals, because they're easier, easier to prosecute easier, to arrest the easier to intimidate easier to catch easier to be ratted on, while at the same time, inversely as a result,

avoiding real criminal, serious criminals and the serious criminals are what the fearful public, via the media in the politicians this what the people respond to accordingly So do you really think there is this? You know Yang Yang here, if you're, if you're concentrating on all these lesser people, you're satisfied with that you're closing cases. Is it really? You know it? Is a public really concerned about pushing people away that really don't need to be put away and like, as you describe in the book, working a couple hours a day where you have this huge work. Fourth at least good,

staying or or defray some of the costs the incredible cost regards serration. Do you really think this is you know the dog chasing its tail? Well, I think the I think the I think the system itself is overall is is warped, so drastically the we have talked about the people that probably shouldn't be in prison. To begin with, I mean our prison system initially was developed to protect society. It wasn't supposed to be developed and and taken over by special interest so that it can become Canon follow the bodies that are in to become cannon fodder for more money and a larger memberships to unions, and things like that. I mean just since one thousand nine hundred and ninety four by one thousand nine hundred and four the incarceration rates were per one hundred thousand residents had already jumped two hundred percent. I mean: how does that happen? Did everybody all of a sudden just go to the street and start committing crime, not what happened

the people that the rooms in their pockets fat? You know they got in behind the scenes and realize that they can manipulate the system in a way that would take advantage of low lesser violent criminals as well, and you know that's how the prison boom I mean, sold out from one point: seven million you know like and ninety five or ninety six to two point: three million by ten years later I mean it does note. The increases in crime was based largely on the non violent. I like the mess, something else to real, quick that about that whenever you, whenever a society put people in prison actually done, the research says in the book about showing the imprisonment for people does serves of our crime rates optimally at rates between one hundred and eleven to two hundred and seven people per one hundred thousand. So Florida has a rate of about five,

so they went from one hundred and eleven, which scientists have proven is the rate there's the optimal rate for a society to incarcerate, one hundred and eleven to two hundred and seven max per one hundred thousand people, Florida incarcerate, one hundred and fifty per one hundred thousand, if you, if you include the juvenile the county inmates, it jumps to eight, oh eight hundred and five, I mean how is it that science is thrown out the window when it comes to these kinds of things, and- and yes I mean do you know- who once again, who's going to speak out is a non violent center be able to speak out, and anybody listen to him, no first if he speaks out too much in prison. He may end up with more time or have some false charges brought up against him, because he's challenging a very lucrative situation for many people who have vested interest in keeping it the waiter so lock them up, throw away the key

It doesn't matter if in many cases there violent or if a crime, for instance a violent crime arm robbery, I would say there's a huge difference in a guy who shoot somebody in the head. Even though they live, and it's still an arm or shoot to somebody where brands the gun sticks in their mouth and threatens them and scares the living to Jesus in. I think there's a big difference between that and some kid who literally scared out of his own shoes, he's doing it out of desperation, he's not wanting to hurt anybody, but he's going to receive the same time that someone who was an act like an animal. You know what I mean, so there is no that the way that the laws are developed. Now in the United States they don't discern the differences between those two types of mentalities, and you know it goes much worse than when I say that I I

hundreds of guys who were in on violations of traffic infractions and things I mean that's how bad it got now. Some of those things. Luckily, because the economy is so bad, some of those have been Rever. In some of the states, including Florida. I believe I believe they got rid of their driving wild license suspended five year senses, but I mean there's still a lot of them that are like that. In many states they have laws still about hitching posts and I think that every laws is getting made more and more laws and very very rarely are those laws overturned. In other words, they should have a committee in these converses to look at laws and say: okay now we pass twenty. So let's look at what twenty we can turn over. Do you know what I mean that might actually stop some of these.

A police statement, Colin, I feel, is that the United States is moving towards and just every every year it seems no, I mean the President of the United States in this country. Today I mean the constitution's pretty much a joke. The president I'd states in this country can dean of a domestic groups as terrorist. If you don't agree with what they're, what they're doing demon, terrorists and the rest, them put them away without any constitutional reading. Without the marine environment has many laws it today. A americans- probably don't even there on the books should definitely not be on the books to a free society at all. Well as a as a result of nine. Eleven has been the same situation in Canada, suspension due process as well. We've been involved as well. We have you know so We won't go there but same sort of thing as stereo, but you can see to that you,

you point out very effectively as well, that this fixation suddenly on terrorism and and how we can deal with these people very harshly and ragged into that as well. But but you say there should be some concern for prisoners living in under Coney, in conditions. In U S federal presents to on line get lots of times inappropriate sentences. The judge is being taken away, any kind of discretionary powers, because a mandatory minimum sentences put in by some of the characters like Charlie Chris here, where this is basically a politician, spent nine ten years doing everything he can for special interest groups to the detriment of of the state itself. It is through

tough times economically and yet there's empty beds at what I thought was very very dramatic examples of is the five thousand unoccupied beds, the decrease in violent crime and I am rate overall, and yet this huge increase in prisons and prison expansion and expenditures, very interesting good example yeah. I believe I was Charlie and either Charlie or Victor Chris, one of the other. At that time, that pushed the bill. The bill got brought for the house and it was passed and then come to find out that the same the company that I can't remember the company now is either GEO or Corrections Corporation of America. One of them got this prison. We got the funding from for taxpayers to build this prison.

And little research arousing the book come to find out that there were five thousand open bed and for the present already before that prison was even built by the product by the private prison industry. I mean. How do you know has are country and our government gotten so far away from the people. People don't even realize that that kind of stuff going on and where was the media and their words media on things like that, to really just blast them for doing those kind of wasting taxpayer money. I really. Don't understand why I mean I do you know for these reasons, but it's just it's this heartening. In order to see how blind society has been by the fear of terrorism, fear of crime in this fear of drugs and to the point where nobody even really cares anymore. They all believe everything is fine. It's working like it should, and you know what they don't realize that that that is not true. It's not even that doesn't get close to being true.

Now, why should the? Why should people or and and how much luck? If you had sort of getting this message, two to two: maybe the right kind of sources of the right kind of audience or people that you think you'd like to review this plan that you do have what been the attitude basically for for next con talking about prison reform. Well, you know what Dan this is. The first, your audience is the Sorry, for this is the first radio interview have had the book just came out on October fifteenth, it's brand new out haven't had a chance to mingle with some of the people, I'm hoping that I could serve as a consultant for and somebody correctional agencies, especially in some of the states that a little more open to this now, that's all, hopefully in the future, as it stands right now, I've gotten really good reviews from people who are reformers prisoners, family members have just there

there. They felt so helpless that there was nobody out there. The truly stood or was able to to articulate the types of things that that are raising in the book. So for them it's great for reformers like Pat O'Connor, paddock he's great guy great guy for crime. Anything I mean yeah. Those guys have been involved in this scene problems first hand have been dealing with these for many years out. I'm didn't blowing reviews. But when it comes to the correctional, no groups and the will systems around the United States you know? I don't think that a whole lot of has gotten too much of wind of it. Yet when they do, I'm hoping that, instead of a retaliatory attitude that instead, they will read the book, if that's what they are doing and saying what I'm talking about and keep an open mind and no wonder and if they do review the book that I'm not just a total

the high level and trying to do in a mask over the responsibility. On their behaviors. I'm not. I do know that everybody has to face the music whenever they make bad decisions or lives or victimize other people. I don't think it's right anymore. It's totally against my personality and what I believe today, but at the same time, if, if we're going to implement some policies that are common sense solutions, you know what better way to do it then to look into someone who's got a decent education. Who actually cares about these things? I mean I really care about these things. I hate to see guys inside, suffer and ways where they could be, they could be rehabilitated human beings, they could get out and actually provide society, productive, labor and maybe there creativity or whatever it is that they have to offer society. I wish that they were provided an opportunity that they could, and I also don't like to see people out here who are victimized when they don't need to be. You know, by a system that is

It is fostering this, so I haven't got a whole lot of feedback from them. I'm concerned, to be honest with you about the correctional officers associate, here in Florida. I'm not sure how they're going to respond when I do get into this book, in which I'm sure they'll be getting one of it pretty soon now and when I do, I hope that they don't retaliate. I really do. I hope that their attitude is hey. We'd, like to we'd like to actually look into. Some of your ideas and see if we could, because you know you know it doesn't mean that these have to be exclusive. These ideas could be inclusive to where the crew, should unions and the other groups that have been influencing these.

Behind the scenes, I'm sure there's a way that they could be of peas and opportunities to be open for them in different ways. That would not have to add to the US for the problem, but until we get a dialogue going a real dialogue, one that does address the issues honestly without you know, they're being so much influence behind the scenes, I'm I'm afraid to say that I don't think much is going to change, but I do I would like to offer. This is an open offer. In the United States that those solutions that I provide, especially in chapter chapters, ten eleven, twelve and thirteen those chapters of the book. I believe, if somebody said

and kept an open mind. They would see the taxpayer savings the burden on them, the victimization recidivism. All of those things decrease matter of fact. I even offer guarantees that if they implement the process and the solutions that I proposed in that book, if they implement them exactly how I'm saying to implement them that they will reduce their recitation, thirty percent that were do the cost of corrections by fifty percent and a number of other. You know increasing child support, reducing welfare that single single mothers with prisoners- children I mean so You know I mean I'm not just one of these people, this just saying a bunch of things and you know not being willing to back them up for support them. I mean I'm.

The back those up and support them and show real statistics so that that way, the rest of the company might be able to move forward. If I could get one pilot state to bring it and as a consultant to do a pilot prison just one prison in their system- and let me have those solutions that I proposed and let me apply them to that population for three years. I guarantee them that the recipe and the actual cost of those prices will go down significantly. Well, you know even prison systems because you have private prison systems competing with State prison systems everybody's looking for saving, so I think you're focusing on something that's very important to everybody and so these they made may be able to look at this, and so I wish you the best luck with this in terms of reaching the right people, but I think you have you very very much well articulated your your argument. Any do not come from a bitter place. She really taken yourself,

a surprisingly very much out of the story in terms of you know what was me and here's my here's. What happened to me in there is not a present memoir by any means, right and and you've definitely grown up to be a very, very objective journalist by virtue of what later and said from from doing this book, so you in outlined in detailed and examined, and you have prescribed, have something it's too, and and just for example, and in your book you talk about restitution, and you talk about, the ways that you really can benefit society with some of the initiatives that you have and really that's.

Should be the goal as well. So I I I commend you for a very viable plan and were you a very happy you can see this is of your life's work. Can you put an incredible amount of effort and focus in being able to write this book, so I applied young very interesting, very interesting work thanks amongst yet you know it's not about me. It's not about thought. I As for me, getting out regal, saying, writing a book and- and you know being a writer and publisher, if I don't you know, I really don't need that. What I'm confident confident the the realisation. I need people to look at this and say: do we want to stop the beaches just hall of money pouring in for these ridiculous corrections for policies and sentencing policies and political policies that aren't aren't has little very little spotlight from media? Are we in changing anything to truly reduce victimization or and as it

or are we going to continue on the same course, and so we end up like the Titanic, because that's literally the way that's the direction this country is going so I hope it will absolutely, and I really do think that you know this is, is just not Well, you know he's turned a bad experience into a really good one and he's writing a book now and he's got some skill This is it. This is a cause. This is causing it our markets, say this is why you were put in prison, but These are the events that happened in your life that have shaped you to be able to create this important document in this important perspective, and you will reach the right people with this. If you, you know just continue to do it because I mean there are people that need to see.

This perspective, because you're you're also taking other people's information as well, incorporating a deed in just come up with this grand plan yourself. So none of this is no. This is something this is something that should spark serious debate, because really, obviously correction is not working. The judicial system is not working. People do not have the trusted they did it do before and in this book, his people ammunition to to be able to get into that debate and to be able to to weigh in and be able to make some statements, because there's the stuff that I think you go yeah yeah, that's right, yeah and, and you make the the the essential connections, especially with the media and and politics, and with all of the you know, the machinations behind the scenes. Just by virtue of That's the way people are looking for jobs and looking for security, and things happen, but

There also is this that the public is the big loser and the public is the big pair of the tab, so including victims, including everybody. That's on the peripheral of this so especially think special focus on also should be paid- and I know we're on time, but to the families and the children. That's why I would like to plug the prisoner family union. Is prisoner, family union, DOT org. I don't. I mean I've been doing all this by myself. I could use any help web developers, anybody interested that is prisoners, family members, people who. Would like to see the system change anybody interested in becoming a reformer or an activist and go to prisoner family union dot, Org or speak out, publishing, dot com and contact me. But let me know what kind of you, even if you would just like to help out with typing or maybe helping us further develop the website. We can set up to stop or make

nations that we can set up the corporation and actually create a lobbying agency that could counter we have in the book itself news for the problem we have the ten top The objectives are: the prisoner found the union in chapter ten, so the whole thing is spelled out in chapter ten about creating something different: the deck and per code. The politicians provide a different perspective. One is based on com, solutions and start changing these things. I mean we're not going to change them unless we have a force that is as powerful as the forces that control that now

so I would invite anybody who's interested in these topics. Anybody who thinks that some of the things I suggest makes sense if they have questions about how that involve industry and agriculture within the prison system and a fair way to private business and also in a way that doesn't export prisoners and provides child support restitution. Things with this is because you know get in contact with me. I need help. I can't do this by myself. I've written a book of of basically shot the first shot across the bow. I need some help. You know, I can't do this by myself. Well, that's great Sean! I want to thank you very much for this interview and we've been listening to Sean Griffith and his book facing the US prison prison problem. Two point, three: strong. Thank you very much Sean and the best of luck and keep in touch and will be looked for all the developments that should be coming from this.

Great book. Thank you very much on and have a good evening. You too Dan. Thank you so much the opportunity good. Thank you very much tonight. When you drive with uber what moves you moves us? That's? Why we're providing new drivers with a one time earnings guarantee offer to help them plan ahead? What moves me, but we're expecting our first kid soon and I'm just trying to plan ahead, so I can give them whatever they need, uber. What moves? moves us earn at least two thousand dollars for your first three hundred trips in Philadelphia, guaranteed drive with us at uber dot com, slash, drive, guarantee earnings offers a for a limited time only in very by city, additional terms applied experiences driving with uber may vary. I

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