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Lost, hope, radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dtk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky From eighteen, ninety five to nineteen thirty seven: ninety three men were hanged at California's, Folsom State prison and this book

Is the first to tell all of their stories recounting long forgotten tales of murder and swift justice, or sometimes so, lift injustice that hanged an innocent man based on a treasury of historical information that has been hidden from the public for nearly seventy years, full stories of these. Ninety three executed: men, presented in this collection, including origins, their crimes, the investigations that brought them to justice Their trials and their deaths at the gallows, this well the previously unpublished historical detail gives a vivid view of the sociology of early 20th century crime and of the re salting prison life, readers, take a trip back in time to the hard boiled early 20th century, California, that in spa are the novels of Dashiell Hammett and countless other crime writers. Illustrated throughout with authentic and haunting prison photographs of each of the condemned men,

The crimes and punishments of a vanished era are brought into a sharp in realistic light book. We're featuring the seating is Folsom's nine Z3 the life, and crimes of fulsome prisms executed. Men, with my a special guest journalist and author April more. Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview April. More. Thank you for Adami,. Thank you very much fascinating book and it takes us of self in the reader back in time to. Turn of the century, so but the former one, the one before that, so so so far. This book- uh it it's it's. Incredible how you came to write this book Let's go back and talk about your great great Betty and who she was and her husband Tom. Before we

talk about the fateful day that you at great your great great aunt, Betty's, came to begin your journey into this incredible story of Folsom's. Ninety three so first tell us about your great great at Betty and her husband, Tom Well, my my petty was certainly a care Hershey. She. She lives in LA where most of my mother's side of the family lives and she was married to Tom, who was about thirty years, older. Her and and she met him when she was a teenager and he was a bookie and also owns and gambling classes in, and I know he had some dealings in Vegas with from hotels and and such and at some point and in the nineteen forties Tom went to force them to call.

From an inmate who owed him and he left with a box of mug shots. Uh of all ninety three men who were executed at Folsom also in the box was a forty page text, chronicling the history of Folsom, from oh, the 1850s when it was first discussed and then up until one thousand nine hundred and forty three. I so he Tom didn't really know what to do with these I mean according to Betty. He really he didn't know what to do with them and he put them in a box stuck them in a closet and forgot about them. Basically, and he passed away in nineteen, seventy nine in that he found them, of course, and She didn't really know what to do with them either, but she kept them to hang on to them and and so oh gosh mid 80s late 80s when I was probably ten or twelve. She

bring them out, and my sister- and I would some through them and make up stories about them and they were creepy they're funny they had just looks on some of their faces were scary and funny, and. At the time I am really had no idea where full was or way what it was about, but all we knew was that we had these creepy photos at my aunt had. Ok, so you're you're, a young girl when you become fascinated with this, and you said in your book very interesting that you're great that was a very very flamboyant person very, very striking and and very interesting personality, and And then one day she came and brought out the box, and you took a look at it so tell us how you come to be of a writer and then how did this project come to

wishing for you in terms of. The genesis of this whole sir? Turning into a book and you turning into an author so tell us a little about that Well, I hadn't really thought about the photos for years an I had been writing off and on short stories articles and had written a novel and stars playing around writing. And I've always enjoyed it. My father was a writer and so is kind of just something. I did and I enjoyed it and but I had, I didn't really have anything that I was working out at the time so into. One thousand and eight. I was going through some of my father's, my late father's writing and I came across a copy of the text,

and 'cause. He was going to possibly write about it and he didn't. He wasn't able to do that, and so I thought God thought of Photo I photos, I wonder if anyone has still got my. My aunt had passed away by that time. So I call my grandfather and ask them hey, you know how about those folsom mugshots? You still got those somewhere, and course he's like I was so close to. Throwing these out medical, oh I'm so glad you didn't. He said well you know, I don't know what you want with these, these ugly mugs, but they're yours, so he sent and to me, along with the original text that they came with an I I had really no idea what I was going to find I had no agenda, no expectations. I just was interested in.

Checking the amount is really at that time we didn't have Google and when I was a kid and and I had no idea what I was when I would find so all of the photograph have the man's name when he was received at the prison is date of exit so I had a lot of information to go on, and so I plugged it one of the guys I point is: name into Google and ended up coming back with many newspaper articles, some Google books that have him his case, Mentioned so it was kind of exciting I'm. This is kind neat and just the more I, search. The more I found an I would just went through one by one and got as much as I could. Yes, fascinating now, for for this book, you have you outlined in your book. One of the very first stories is.

Talking about the gang wars in eighteen. Ninety two in downtown Sacramento with the Bin. Hong Kong in the CHI Hong Kong societies and the murder of a merchant name Li but You also we throughout this book. Of course, the history the fascinating history, that was eighteen the five in previous to one thousand nine hundred and then shortly after. And this story goes to one thousand, nine hundred and thirty seven so tell a sub the situation for Asians in California their conditions and how are they legally regarded in? Why, at that time, so tell us a little give us a little bit of the history, that's included before we talk about the particular case of the murder of Lee Gong sure, yeah. Yes, certainly even with the with the gold rush had brought in

people from all over in a lot of Asians came to strike it rich and- and I know, I I don't think California, or anybody really was ready for that there was a lot of anti chinese anti asian sentiment and There are a lot of a more use of forced labor, and so many. Came through Angel Island, which is basically an island outside California, where immigrants were channeled through and many spent is more like a prison before they were allowed to come into California, so it was incredibly harsh to be seen it in immigrating California. At that time there was so much anti asian sentiment as far as taking jobs and when you have money and gold involved, there's competition and it was

it wasn't a good time. I I don't think in very good time for immigrants in California. Now? This store merchant was Lee an and apparently at that time with. Two societies. Of course you have to have allegiance to one of the society, so there was talk that this was Maybe the reason for the murder tell us about the murder itself and his is wife's name was Awwa hope I didn't Concept, but that's her and he's forty five years old at that time. So tell us about the situation as you outlined in the book about Li Gong and his wife is a couple days. To tell us about the circumstances around. Before and during It's murder! really gone with a cigar store owner. An his department was attached, above from what I understand was above the store.

And two men came into this tour- an all one or all what was in the also she was behind the counter, her husband was in adjacent room, but would- there is a window into the other room where he was sitting. And two men came in and asked for cigars and according to the wife. She turned her back to retrieve a cigar And one of the men pointed a gun, through the window and shot her husband and then fled the store and then the families. Apparently came out and he had a gun and he shot gun in the air, and he couldn't find the assailants, but the wife said that one of the men had a scar down the side of his face. I

so police were searching for a man with a scar and and they found a man he was. She can hang with in in someone's house smoking opium and he had he had just arrived in Sacramento just a day earlier, I believe, and but according to test of witness testimony and had been in this house all day long all evening and hadn't left. So there was a so much conflicting testimony as to whether this man was I was not there and what happened this gunshot shot has sparked another riot among the two,

chinese game. So there is a lot of gunfire and and a lot and just chaos going on, and police, rounded up pain in another man and brought them to the jail, and a lot of people were saying: that's not there man is not the right man and over the course of I got about a year year and a half before the case. They did went to trial and by the time the cook he had he, Who is nowhere to be found anymore, an I believe so, Only after the trial, the wife also left. And it was rumored that she ran away with the cook and that the cook killed her husband. So that was the. That was a sentiment among most of the Chinese during that time Regarding the case.

What you include sorry, go ahead: No, I'm just saying there there's no other physical evidence to link Chin pain to the crime and and a lot of in assistant testimony and, and frankly I don't know that he really received a fair trial. There was a witness name- yes, so jim- that led police initially to Hane, And also there was. Controversy. Eventually with uh with the uh this testimony wasn't there. There was supposed to be irrefutable evidence because he had this major scar on the side of his head. So there was used. Like you said, there's many people's saying They got the wrong man, but what was his wife testimony in terms of who had a really killed. Her husband She, you know, she didn't know his name, she didn't know who he was, that she saw this car and and it could have been someone, we we really don't know

It was really based on her testimony. So. And yet there was no other, but there are witnesses said he was never. He was even knew that cigar shop, he was never even in the cigar shop. Even the man he was convicted with he. But he wasn't there, he had the man that he was convicted with had been shot in the leg from a previous riot and was in bed at the time. So to me, it feels like there's, there's a lot of unanswered questions and there's a lot of going to the trial. Transcript, there's a lot of questions that the prosecution never addressed, which I found interesting and and Just so much to me a lot of doubt when you have so many witnesses Collaborating with pain- and NBC had an alibi. But and it could have been that she had seen this man a day before or the day of and

on this car and considered him the perfect scapegoat can't go It was interesting to that. Would you include in your book that This is how the newspapers reported quote. One of the daughters exhibited as much feeling and agony is any white child under the circumstances cancer can often yeah and that an actor how reporters did nature, how they treat minorities and and the language they use. This test. No heinous, it was awful. So there really a lot of minorities, especially the Chinese you once they were arrested for something that they really couldn't win When they, when you that the media and in with anything even today and you have the media

projecting you as as this you know, they called Indians, half breeds and It's horrible names, you really you don't stand a chance right right, What's interesting, too, is that the first execution in Folsom, prison, is also comes with it. Con traverse city of some body being executed wrongfully again just thought that that was very ironic: very first- and you already got controversy right away with with the execution internet, I'm sure the information I tried to find as much information as I could to prevent it uhm. But in my eyes I I am not so sure that yeah that he did it. So this is just based on the on the trial transcripts, certainly reasonable, doubt

right, certainly that you include in your book to the the actual event itself, the death by hanging. So tell us a little bit about the ritual itself. Let's start did in eighteen. Ninety five, with their first execution, tell us a little bit about what actually happens what did actually happen when they prepare after hanging. Yes, Well, it's it's typically done and they start preparing weeks weeks ahead as Far as getting a rope- and that was typical- made of hemp and stretching it and it's soap in water and stretching it- and I don't know the all- the mathematical form was involved, but they had to know. The man's weight and height and and so much that went into how long the rope is cut. How many the

and how how high it had to be strung up there is certainly a science to it. So once the was prepared, the men who who are on death row at Folsom at least There were in condemned app condemned row, which I also called the back alley an you would start out there, two tiers of cells and of his window are there. These rooms that had no windows, the doors are solid and they would start at the bottom. And work their way as as executions took place, they would work the to the next sale in Excel until they're, at the top and closest to the gallows, and so.

When you, when your neighbor was executed, and you you would be moving to the next cell and and getting closer and closer well. The next important story that you included. This is about ivankova, live in in one thousand eight hundred and ninety three? He and nine other men had escape Siberia's sack alien prison, and made their way to San Francisco and when they came. They of course wanted. Of course, they. Lied about who they were apparently and at tell us a little bit about how the came to not how they came to San Francisco, but what happened once they did get to San Francisco involving the media and, of course, the authorities- I and this is certainly a case where the media work in their favor

these are men who claim to be political prisoners in Russia and the there. An author who had visited the prison, I could you earlier and had reported on all these horrible abuses at this prison and the conditions and- and so in the US got wind of this, and then they hear these these ten po prisoners you know at at, for however many days arrive in San Francisco, they there was a lot of video. They felt sorry for them and fell. You know we need to give them asylum and get them home. And even Russia is saying no, and you guys just send these guys back the the US said well what will take care of this? An and they did- and you know they they let the Intrigo free. They may I saw a reference that they they

The men on display at A5 a five and dime museum and and then they pretty much then disappeared into society. Howell many of them within the next year were back in prison and Kovalev was probably the worst of the worst and he in a couple of other russians- murdered a couple very brutally murdered. An elderly couple who owned a store and their their house their apartment, was above the store Now, by this time, his favor with the media. Was probably over so tell us how the media now treated when Kovalev given now. He was up for murder and these other some of the other prisoners, like you say within a couple of years, a too a lot of more back in Folsom, oh yeah,

actually I mean the sentiment towards him, and you know I'm one. Eighty and eighty and they and of course they all came out. So how could you guys do this? How could how could the US lefties when into the country. So suddenly, and nobody wanted to have anything to do with letting them in and quite angry, and I mean it was such a vicious horrible crime to that? I think they. They obviously regretted their decision, but nothing they could do a better and he was caught sort of advertently to with, with of the. The bounty from from the theft 'cause. This was about woman had in. A lot of money and a lot of jewelry. So why there was a lot of jewelry and and they found jewelry after they found this you're, not so

careful, criminal, intoxicated and then they found the jewelry in the jail cell. So. He had been arrested for disorderly conduct. And over new years and had been in prison? or it had been in jail overnight and he knew he How probably going to get searched and he put a watch that we had stolen from the victim and hid it in his cell and so in the last he laughed and said they didn't find it till later. But eventually, but you know, then eventually they were able to figure out who he was they by talking to people talking to people who knew this particular Really is he used so they were able to locate him in at the time too, he was wearing clothing from

the husband been suspenders and pants and a jacket so. He he's wearing the evidence. So his trial progress. Of course he. How did he plead, but the inevitable? Obviously he was executed so tell us just a little bit about the trial in the wrap up and then right now he He claimed he didn't do it. He of course he he blamed his partners, for I said that he was just there he was there, but he took it didn't take any part in it there was from understand. He didn't speak he's, very little English and spoke through an interpreter, so at the end, and imagine that was a difficult for people listening for the jury to to keep up, and

but he admitted it. He said that he was present when it when the murder took place and. And he basically, he kind of lost his mind to he. He was reported you're, saying that he was a watch. Dead man and you can kind of tell from the picture he was very his face was very sunken in and- and I think he was very haunted by what he had done and his When he was offered whiskey right before his execution, he opted for a glass of milk instead so and then he was called the cringing coward and was weak and trembling on the on the gallows and and didn't say a word before he he fell through the trap. As we spoke about in the before the

program uhm. It seems It was fascinating to me that there was even this right, the heinous nature of a lot of these criminals. Hence the executed, but You still was a code of honor or manliness attack as to how you went those gallo. So just tell us a little bit about that. Oh sure I mean You had, you know, cried what no matter what you are Therefore, whether you were guilty or innocent and men would be often times and their their hand to be tied behind their backs and they be walking to the gallows and man

cigarette hanging out of their mouths, and I think they wanted to show that they weren't scared and many of them. I think, did that others, I think, were the horrible. I would imagine the feeling of walking to your death. But I was you know, and I have to hand it to some of them because they they did for you, wanna call it. You know it took it like a man and it was their last opportunity to to save the words not always, but they would sail song boys or something to that nature. But you know- and I was amazed by many when I was reading about the accounts of their execution- how strong willed many of them,

even those who went to their death claiming their innocence. They were common collecting. Was fascinated. This is one of the most important stories in the and also it has repercussions later in importance later. Is July, 27th, one thousand nine hundred and three, warden. You introduce the These wardens that, as we talked about before the, They are weaved through this through the entire book, as well as being law reformers governors that at that time, that we're control of the state and these wardens that were highly regarded wardens at these major prisons dealing with the most serious criminals. So Talk about a warden Thomas Wilkinson and you talk about the day they may

with guards and inmates in the captain's office and they were acting like a sort of a court hearing for inmates, and so tell us about what happened with the seven or eight convicts in this office. That day. So it was, it was customary for Wilkinson to meet with convex in the cap office office. To hear about any insubordinate acts. Anything any infractions and punishments will be made it out and and they'll be on their way, and so And it certainly was a oh a controversial method, for a lot of warden to be doing this 'cause they didn't have weapons, they didn't have anything like that, and but you know he took that he took that risk

and so there was about seven inmates who had conspired before hand two to take the warden and his guards hostage and and they did they, they storm the office and one would grab the warden one grab. There was a couple other guards into the office and they had razor blades and an You know prison made knives and It was pure chaos and it's according to Wilkinson. There is blood blood blood in all directions, and chairs were flying when a one guard got beat with a chair, I believe in, and it was just is this ma'am and what they? that is the ultimate goal for the convicts were at the time waffles didn't have walls around, they were,

there is a river, the american rivers on one side and then there's the other three sides. Were there there's no wall, there is what was called the deadline and Convex knew he didn't cross. That line or one of the tower guards was going to let you know with his his gun so. What the kind of could hope to do and what they ultimately succeeded in doing was using the guards and the warden as human shields, and they got to the armory and the warden toll the armory guards or let these guys in the key down, and they storm the armory loaded themselves for the weapons and proceeded to basically walk out of the prison. With these garden. And the warden as their shields, and they escaped about a mile away, and they did let the warden

they change, they made them change clothes, so they sent the warden back in his underwear and they send a few a couple, the guards back, one on one one of the photographer which leads to warden grants and I believe- and they did keep a few more and they kept, I think five guards hostage and and so they they succeeded. And now let's say they say there is thirteen prisoners, total had x, gate and so cursed the National Guard was called and- and it was it was a very intense manhunt for actually a couple of months. And five convicts you say: we're never never caught Captured right, two of them were killed and Fiverr, never recaptured and then

the remaining ones. Work were captured, they were brought back to Folsom, but right Don't know whatever happened to the the five of them. It was interesting to is the there were reports that the escaped convicts were very polite to the people that they robbed yeah. Maybe the newspaper reports were all consistent, saying: that they were jovial. They were, I think, they're, just so thrilled to be out of Folsom. That they would actually they actually left money to those from the farmers who who fed them and really the farmers, had no choice, Because they had weapons, but they were, they were very polite and cordial and in fact, many others. A couple of them who insisted but none of them being violent. So it was certainly not what you would expect no

there were two guards. It again are are prominent in this story and not just in this one story, but throughout this whole book is Pj Cochran. The guard and Rj Murphy, which happened to be, one of the hostages, along with Wilkinson, initially. There was criticism right after this and we're talking major criticism of the wardens, Polisy that not to shoot the kill, despite these shields so tell us what The criticism was in what they had said, the should have done with the with the guards as human shields right, so the the prison board of directors. Was you know they were crew really! Well, there they're angry at the the way Wilkinson had conducted business.

Allowing inmates into the office and and and doing that sort of thing, but to not to tell the guards not to shoot that was the whole. The idea is that you do everything you cannot to get not to let prisoners escape an if that means putting yourself in danger, then then so be it an uh. And that was that was a very harsh criticism from from the prison board that that never should have had And they never should have gone to the armory and they never should have given up the key 'cause. There were guards who said they had a clear shot a few of the inmates, but were ordered not to shoot so things could have turned out differently had he been allowed to.

You talk about a trustee named Joseph Casey, so in the end he gets pardoned for his compassion. Words the garden his role in helping the other side as it were, Apj Cochran in the end becomes very important cap. And of the guard. So let's talk about PJ, Cochran and after this, and what is he known for in terms of the treatment of prisoners. So we can get into some of the things like the straight jacket, and some of the other The other things that were. D rigor in Folsom prison at that time. Right, it certainly depends on who you talk too There were

many written accounts from former inmates at the time who would who about Cochran? It was basically a guard of torture and because at that time. Corporal punishment was still in vogue and and used and Cochran. His job was to lace up the straitjackets, which was pretty horrendous. Punishment meted out in those days, Ann uh, there was an inmate named Jack Black who had written a his memoir and hadn't spent much time. Folsom and talked about how many of the inmates hated Cochran and And many and they're this particular riot, many of the

escapees, targeted, T Cochran because of the punishments he had taken part in. Right now you talk about the Jake Open timer, and he talks about, he was stood punishment for one hundred and ten hours of the straight jack and taco that they used to call it the bag like a core is it like very, very tight. It was so tight that they would often get permanent in crippling A paralysis out of the deal or be crippled from from the ordeal itself and some even died talking about porn the Epson salts down their throats at the same time, and then something called the iron maiden virtual vice and the hooks so where prisoners were pulled apart, so. This one went on for at least till one thousand, nine hundred and twelve. You say

list, even even probably beyond that a little bit. I'm sure prisons got away with it as long as they possibly could without somebody noticing. But yeah I mean these were common punishment and sure There are many others that I don't know about, but the straight jacket was certainly a common one and they would strip the inmates down and the straight jacket on them and tighten it with. They would stick a piece of would like a little. And they through the loops and then tighten tighten it and and they would the inmates would lose almost really all feeling in their in their bodies in their lands, and they couldn't go to the bathroom they couldn't eat they couldn't think they can do anything. They would lay them on the floor and

yeah many of them were permanently disfigured or or died from this very common punishment. So. And you can imagine no. In your book you have a very, very fascinating story. That seems and again what I thought in your book was is that. Even though it's over a hundred years before there seems to be parallels and and very very commonalities, with how lawyers act, how defendants act, how, murderers act, and and then the cycle path like tendencies that these they have to uh deny deny deny so, let's talk about eight off Julius Weber was twenty years old, one thousand nine hundred and six in Auburn CA, wealthy family, his mother, Mary sister, Bertha and Brother Earl,

caught in a fire. So tell us, tell us a little bit about this fascinating story a tough barber. He was probably one of the most fascinating to me in the book twenty years old, very wealthy, prominent family and just be outside Auburn CA. And he was a little odd little detached nature kind of kid. He wasn't always that way. But he kind of developed into this on on teenager that a lot of people steered away from and Ann say one thousand nine hundred and four is.

Neighbors found his house on fire, basically and and the house of boarded up wealth, closed up, locked up the windows doors, everything, and so they thought the family was away, and so they broke windows to get into at least try to get out some furniture and save what they could and they on upon the bodies of Mary Weber and Bertha Weber, the mother and the and her daughter, Bertha And- I also found the body of a girl who was six years old and and not eight office was under a tree basically watching the scene unfold, which is where he was found by my people, and he a cut on his hand, it was bleeding and but he couldn't really say what happened. He said that

he had to get into the house and handed savers, his mother, but you know, given his detached nature. No one really it's all! This is on just because he was an odd character by it. What turned out once the down the fire had on by the next day they found the body of his father with a bullet wound, and then his his mother and sister also had bullets in them as well. So it had, quickly to what what may have been an accident accident of fire was a cover up of a murder. Also, at the same time, there's a buzz our bank robbery that occurred previously where this brazen robber, over the counter stole six thousand dollars shot at a clerk and escaped with a horse and

heart into the hills, if it officially eventually found the bandits false beard, shirt and overalls. Tell us. What the connection is with this bank robbery and this murder well that the money was found and buried outside of the Weber Barn, so the money that was stolen and and that so once they found the money, it was pretty easy to kind of put the dots together and determined that this agile robber, what most likely the same as what was likely eight off and there was a kind of

I know there was a there was a gun used at the bank robbery and a gun used for the murders and there was a gun store owner who. Was able to identify a DAF as the one who bought purchased the gun from him, so, but once they found the money buried, they they pretty much knew that offers behind the robbery about six months earlier and and it was proposed that the reason he killed his family was because his father, his parents, had found out about the robbery and he he wanted to silence them. Basically,. It's interesting to what money did for you at that time, not so dissimilar to what money can do for you in terms of defense. Now for robbing the He settled out of court returning six thousand seven hundred dollars he had received, and at the law. At the time he receive.

Seventy one thousand dollars from his father's estate, yeah, I mean at the time there were no laws. There was nothing that could stand in the way from someone, a murder inheriting the fortune of those he murdered, and because of that, There was A law enacted to to prevent anything like that from ever happening again, so Yeah it was, it was insane. It was insane the money that he inherited basically paid for his defense. And his defense to was really again. Will I get parallels to today was that it was very. Ambitious. They said he was paranoid and hallucinated and an insane at the time of the murder he was nervous, symptoms and they talked about sex. We will drive and uh so.

It really was they. They tried as hard as they could. It was a vigorous defense, wasn't it it really wasn't, and the thing was that there was really well, no physical evidence that linked him to the murders whatsoever, and it was all circumstantial every you know he did. It was just it was it all led to him and his uhm, you know- and there was some eyewitness testimony of his behavior and where he was, you know he said for this job this and this woman saw him and she have to be a prostitute, so they tried. Of course, the defense tried to discredit her because of her profession, but even I mean even his defense and they didn't really have a lot He didn't really have. He didn't, have an alibi, but there were so many things that that

and to him doing it from the people he ran in in town to his behavior it just and but you know he continued to proclaim his innocence to the end yeah, it's amazing your next story or part of your book- you talk about California. Again at this time in the Pacific Electric Railway offering little cost mass transit to this. And part of the state, they talk about a San Jose AIR Show in nineteen ten, the first most picture in LOS Angeles in nineteen ten and then the mining explosion we were, Talk about Angel Island, what that ended up being, but there was sort of a the consider this under Governor Hiram John. Became governor and then talked about it was considered, progressive era unprecedented reform

against the railroads corrupt regime, but also what that led to in terms of rights for web and and also prison reform. So tell us a little bit about that, and many of the censorship is a big time for California. During during that time, because you have the the railroads, it was such a monopoly and they can the the waterways controlled controlled. So much and citizens are sick of it. They're tired of it and they and it wouldn't suffrage, and you know they were looking for change or looking for some. We're thinking and tired of the status quo, and so Ann and and minorities were. Rising and then demanding rights and justice alongside the women and and as far as the prison goes

but it was also a time to reform prisons and the treatment that the inmates were receiving an an so it was. It was a huge time for California during that at that era. It's interesting to reforms, included It seems amazing that there were they were that in rifle thought that time that they were his now was available for low risk offenders and the separated they. That we should separate first time offenders from hardened convicts and they nail corporal purple punished in prison. An and built a farm, making the prison self sustaining so the system under a Johnston warden, and Hiram Johnson very interest, and these reforms he was such a reformer. He was moved to San Quentin and implemented reforms there. So these really the

the people that were wardens and the governor's at the time were major prison. Reformers well yeah. Some of them were not all of them, but those two absolutely an especially Johnston. He he so well respected and in the in the prison penal system and. He not only did he go to stand. Kwitney also was at Alcatraz, so he he he saw, he saw how you treat people and and what you're going to get in return, and so he knew that You should with somebody with respect, regardless of what they did regardless of why they were in prison, you're, going to get respect back and- and that was something I think previous wardens didn't quite understand. I mean to them these pre

we're were there for reason, reason there would there be punished and and the more that they rebelled the worse. The punishment wood and there is no mutual respect, and then there was always chaos. There are riots. There are but Johnson thought differently. Where you you get you give these inmates something, I know if you wanna call it giving something to live for, but you give them something they'll give you something back and it created an environment where there could be peace. Finally, at least for a little while, In a very volatile place, yay you talk about James, a Johnston did more changes at Folsom in one year than anyone else in history, and we talk Interesting you're talking about humane treatment. This is an extreme example of

at in terms of Jacob Jacob Open Heimer. We talked about him before and during the hundred and ten hours of the straight jacket and he was in solitary for years, so they called him the human tagger and, and apparently him and warden Instant you know they weren't friends, but they came friendly and John and the human taker was called the worst criminal in California at eighteen years. In solitary so tell it's about a little bit about this condemned man, because he he there's a very interesting and complex character and very good writer in terms of he wrote an autobiography called the condemned men. So tell us more about this fascinating interaction with human tagger.

Open, Heimer and Warden Johnson right. He was that he was probably my if I had to pick a favorite operators, partly probably my favorite, just because. He was so fascinating and for for what he had been through for what he had been dealt, he had an effect that he was in solitary confinement for about one thousand six hundred and eighteen you. There's was his amazing insight into the outside. World in the human psyche and an his writings were bigger fallen and poignant and insightful and very unlikely. I suppose you would expect of someone who spent so much time in Sala Terry, and he was also consider

the human tighter and and that he knew he had this vision, any Rick people apart and and it really it really wasn't the case and Johnson Solace in him his solitude. This is a human being and there's a reason that maybe is this way there's a reason he he lashes out- and you know he approached him human to human and to find out really more about him and they did end up kind of striking up this friendship, which then also led to Oppenheimer. I think it. Demystified him and a and a way to the the next warden who came in after Johnson, because he I think they they under they're, able to understand Oppenheimer a little more based on Johnston's experiences with him.

Well. The human tagger, though too, was didn't like. Is confined, so he wanted to escape. He had uh pioneered this use of sort of like a Morse code with certain taps, meaning certain things and so he tried to escape and the guy that ratted him out. He killed them Ann, so he he would talk about why he killed all those men. He said self defense right, yeah yeah releases. You know they. They goaded him and they they egged them on and- and I I think Oppenheimer had become this- oh, I don't know if this strange, figure in this prison 'cause. He bounced back from San Quentin to Folsom back and forth and kind of became this.

Legendary figure, I think to some of the inmates, and- and he was slight of stature- is a small man and and- and I think a lot of the inmates probably goaded him in and not to say that it was right on Oppenheimer John. But in a way he kind of was this caged tiger that when he was let out he, he had revenge to two act. So he had any had a lot of time on his hands. So he had a lot of time to plan and and these types of things, so he was a- he is a fascinating figure Yes, it was like eloquent writer to it seems, and, and also that

uh, he had a certain charm. There was four thousand people at that time that signed documents not wanting him to be executed to Governor Johnson. And his lawyer, which was a really good lawyer at that time. Work pro bono for six years on his behalf, many believe in him and and yeah. He was. He had a lot of supporters outside the prison and certainly a lot of women admire to send him flowers and chocolates, and things like that, but There was a lot of people, including I kiss attorney, who really believed he kind of got the raw end of the deal and that you know he deserved much better treatment than what he was given. So

and his lawyer. His learn believe in him and in blade in his case, an believe that he at least deserved to be not in Sala Terry Confinement anymore and that he deserves to be with the other inmates and to have more of a life that other than living in this small whitelist Cage basically yeah we don't have, and enough time to go through all of the stories, but the one that we really want to talk about. Two is a little bit about Sort of a modern application of the of the working criminals- working outside of a prison in in one thousand nine hundred and fourteen they they started work on the California Highways which was really interesting. You talk about that

work two days get one day off their sentence, and but but just a what I found interesting was that you said They ten thousand inmates worked over this period of time, and one hundred and two escaped and never were captured, tell us a little about this way. I wish I knew more about that, but in I mean It was pretty amazing accomplishment to have that many inmates out outside. The prison walls, ten thousand only having one hundred of them actually and many of them just walked away from the what they were doing And they walked away from the building the roads and and were we never heard from again it's likely, Most of them who were taking part of this program were pretty low, level criminals who were were

eventually probably serving short sentence, is perhaps there who weren't considered dangerous to society. Right you know, I mean it happens, and I mean it was probably very tempting for them to be able to do that. So, but it's. It was a very successful program and even today, Department of Corrections uses inmates for various forestry and fire protection projects and park maintenance. So. So it's certainly been a problem asking what around for a long time and and and has proven to be successful, One of the more interesting historical facts that I found in your book, which again very very fascinating, was you talk about. The industrial workers of the world.

And a uniform wage that they they worked for in one thousand nine hundred and five and they're the only union at that time. That that would welcome all races and immigrants but what I found most fascinating is that you talk about how they were lynched tortured, an in prison because they wouldn't say Fort World WAR, one right right, ugly- and you know they were, they did accept minorities and they did so. They certainly with that alone were considered outcasts in her way, and there a hey man attached to these workers had to wear stockings and and unpatriotic and man, and they they were always out for trouble and and- and it was unfortunate that that app that technology catch to to this particular

workers. You also talk about a prohibition in nineteen nineteen and all the corruption it went from there and how that affected. The prince, population and society and also the golden age of the Ku Klux Klan with. Apparently four to five million members in one thousand nine hundred and twenty five. So that's very, very interesting and an anti lynching bill defeated in nineteen twenty, two, twenty three and twenty four. It's an anti lynching bill. Folks. Let's get to one of the most colorful characters in your book and that, and especially because of the crime- and I can't believe I'm reading this crime that many years ago, because it sounds like something that could happen about now and that's Alex Kells in nineteen twenty four wealth butcher and his associate Edward

Mister Bi believe so tell us about the Lodis, California and Alex Kells Well Alex counts was a. He was a very successful butcher, you're in LOS California and He, however, was in debt, apparently so he had decided the best way out. Well, I should back up here he was married and had a nine year old daughter and his wife was pregnant. So what are decided to do was stages on death and what he had done was he had met, Edward Missouri at aimia unemployment agency and

told him that he could use some work on his ranch and he would pay him room and board and things like two hundred and fifty a day, two dollars and fifty cents a day and later that evening they found health Kerr backed into a haystack it was on fire, and there was a body in the back seat and his personal effects, such as keys, were in the pockets. So what happened was that cals killed this man put him in the car, set the car on fire and left, and he was on four a few months.

And and what's interesting too, is that somebody he knew recognized him in Nevada and the poor man thought he had seen a ghost and and but Alex Cal's kept on in and eventually was found in a in Eureka, California ready to commit suicide, and when he was found. He was actually found by law enforcement from by who he knew Anne had known for years, and they brought him back to Lodi, and he had just asked that no one tell his wife that that he was alive so it was fascinating to me that for months is I did not know that He was alive and sitting in jail and pleaded guilty and was going to be hanged.

And she was pregnant. And nobody wanted to tell her this because she was pregnant and obviously they. They thought it was a danger to her health and the health of the baby. So to be this town kind of conspired together to protect this woman from the truth, so it this is to me it's interesting despite the betrayal of her husband she she's a staunch. Reporter not wanting him to be executed and claimed. He was insane and and she worked to appeal to the governor right. She did. She She spent a lot of time at the governor's office even right up until you know, even on Christmas Eve, she was there and claiming that she knows much more. But nobody asked her, and so she, you know she said she's very

better, really that she was not told sooner that her husband was had been captured and that there are these months went went by or she could have presented evidence that supported this theory that he was insane that there that he wasn't right in the head and and that there is a lot of things. Things that had happened, that she felt that he he exhibited a lot of these hallucinations and paranoia. That would, for her explain why he had had killed his man Very interesting, too, that she received forty two thousand dollars from ensure current policies eventually house and see how these laws are changed, can't you yeah, absolutely and just by right,

Guessing obviously it was, it was fraud to get insurance money, and yet here she was able to collect a good portion of it. Let's talk about before we have to let you go about Pj Cochran was killed at a rock quarry. In nineteen, twenty four and he had worked. Between heat work worked at Folsom between one thousand eight hundred and ninety one and nineteen twenty four. So then also tell us just a little bit about one thousand, nine hundred and twenty seven, what the impetus was for or you talk about, ritual criminal legislation, the very similar to the three strikes and you're out now so tell us a little bit about what seems happened there there and that the new law

yeah the habitual crime was too I'm trying to find a haven't. Looked at this in awhile. It was too to keep habitual criminals kind of like what you would see mandatory sentencing laws today and two Basically, keep habitual criminals in as long as they possibly could and kind of like the three strikes, your out law, I haven't looked it up and So long, I would have to excuse me for no, that's, ok what you did talk about, that it was just you know the times and Folsom was expanded to fit more inmates. So there was a you. You talk about the advent of automobile park, so we don't.

Again. We don't have enough time to go into all of these fascinating stories, but you talk about the again the the years one thousand. Nine hundred and thirty seven executions were not done, anymore, more by hanging, so tell us about D the end of that era at Folsom Ann, what had transpired or what it transformed to was the next step. So in in May of nineteen. Thirty, seven California had this headed to abandoned hanging and all executions would take place at San Quentin at the gas chamber. So. You know it was said that that the gas chamber would be more humane.

And and that hanging wouldn't be hanging with so violent oven act that and that's a gas chamber would be much more calm and soothing, and and that it was a better way to execute inmates, which really was quite the opposite. It was pretty. Is it is from what history has said? It is very awful, very painful way to today I was in the gas. But regardless Governor James Rolfe Junior vetoed saying that the gas chamber be experimenting with hue,

misery, whereas at San Quentin Warden, basically said that the purpose is to remove these convicted people from society and how it's done mattered very little. So it eventually has now changed to lethal injection and it still still is occurring at San Quentin, but Folsom did their last execution in one thousand, nine hundred and thirty seven. It's ironic that that there still there still debate and also Issues and problems with execution, isn't it play me night,

you know he asked me this is really probably know humane, clean, simple way to execute someone in, and there is such a each each method it is so far has its own flies and- and I think now it's there's people injection is- is very tend to be flawed and botched. A lot of the inmates who are drug users have very unusable veins, so it's very difficult for people to administer the drugs and often times the drugs. Don't do what they're supposed to do

because they they they give them three entrance and one is supposed to render them unconscious and it doesn't always happen, and so when they give them, the next run there they're experiencing the pain of their body shutting down when they shouldn't be. So so many things have happened, power outages have occurred, you have people who are administering the is are nervous and some of them even intoxicated and states, don't require someone to even stay with it and made even insure deep, unconsciousness so and sometimes use drugs can rise, and so they are unable to speak or move an no one would know that they are still awake. So there's just, I think, there's a lot to be. I'm still figured out with this and.

Again just doing a lot of the research with my book. I I really feel there was eight or nine of these men who were innocent, so Ann. I think until there's you know going to ensure that everyone who's on death row is is truly guilty. I think right and it's just it's too much to gamble with Well, the the the advent of any kind of wrongful conviction in terms of someone being killed on that wrongful conviction. I guess throws out the whole idea that, You know just rather let nine guilty go. Then, rather one innocent be convicted. While I mean I guess, that's just lip service or I'll. Let you go. I just wanted to mention to the readers I just to get implore them that this book is chock full of these fascinating stories and I'll just leave our audience with this headline for story about

Alfred Bollinger and his wife, EVA and somebody name, Alex Summers- and the headline in in Newspaper was MRS Eva Bollinger of Marysville, tells her harrowing experiences as bride of men with bloodlust That was the headline where a woman ends up having misfortune of having Four out five husbands, killers. You know what are the odds and if you think some of this stuff is new. It sold. So it's very, very fascinating book, including all of these. Stories and then the historical background that is necessary to to really Fully understand the times and the feel things and the emotions at that time, and how It's changed from really harsh treatment to a rehabilitation are,

basically an imprisoned self sustaining farms moment of prisoners, freedoms of up rights for prisoners. So very, very interesting story. View included all of this and and a way Wonderful wonderful trip down memory lane in terms of troop I'm. So I want to thank you very search for that. No thank you, now, if somebody were interested in, I don't know if you have a website or if you do, the Facebook thing tell us how people might contact if they're so interested, and, of course, this book is all over Amazon and Barnes and noble so easy to find probably an ebook format, as well as paperback, so tell us what about, if somebody wanted to contact you or find more about this story or anything else, you've done are going to do so be happy to talk with. Anyone is interested. They can find out more information. Information on my website called ninety three dot com, and I I

talk about some of the stories I came across during my research, but you can also reach me through that or you can go to April, J, more dot com and yeah. Like you said, the book is on Amazon, Barnes and noble and yeah. It should be easy to find. Absolutely. I want to thank you very much April more for coming on and talking about Folsom's ninety three, the life and crimes of Folsom prisons executed men. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about it. Thank you Thank you and have a great evening. Goodnight goodnight.

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