Seldom, if ever, has a writer been given access to a former major drug dealer in the Mafia underworld and three generations of legitimate family members that followed. After nearly two years of interviews and subsequent research, it has been discovered that a close relative of the family was one of the most powerful figures in the Mafia from the 1940s Thru the mid 1980s, yet his identity until now has never been revealed to the public. He was the successor to Charles "Lucky" Luciano and became the conduit between Sicily and the United States as well as the Advisor for all five New York families for four (4) decades. The book tells in detail the life and times of a family who escaped the threat of Fascism in Sicily at the turn of the century and the rise of one of the children to a major figure in the Mob. Another sibling returned from a tragic life in an orphanage only to become an adept criminal. He ultimately spent twenty years off and on in prison with the Who's Who of the Mafia, men who became friends and had secret stories to tell. After prison, he became one of the pioneers of Off Off Broadway in NYC. The book details the influence and protection afforded later generations of the family to this day. It offers a unique insight into the real life of people during this 100 year period. Myths about the Mob are disclosed and inaccuracies in the history of the Mafia are corrected. FOR MEMBERS ONLY-THE STORY OFTHE MOB'S SECRET JUDGE -(G.T. Harrell) JERRY VAIRO
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Good evening. This is your host Dan Sepanski for the program, true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors have have written about them in October, two thousand and six Gt Harrell, receive the phone and no an ad from dad. Alright save money on car insurance when you bundle home and auto with progressive. Can I take these off right? What is this? This looks good where did you get this, I'm talking to you with the hair yeah? Where did you get this
stuff. That's solid! That's not veneer! That's solid stuff! Progressive! Can't save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle Holmon, auto progressive, Contrally insurance, copay affiliates. Another insurance discount is not available in all states or situations who call from a man who identified himself as the great nephew of a high ranking member of the mafia from the forty S until his death. In the MID Ninety S, he told him that three generations of his family members had a wealth of stories about the mob that needed to be told. He said he would like to commission him to write a book detailing the life and times of his great uncles. He was invited to travel in New York City to meet medium. Is great uncle sunny Dela University, the last living sibling of Poly Lefty Dela University, as well as a former criminal attorney and his brother, the following week. He was introduced to everyone in little ITALY, New York, city and videotape seventeen hours of interviews with sunny. He told compelling stories about many of his life experiences with well known, gang
there's an associates of his brother Polly, many of whom were the who's who of the mafia after turned home? this fascinating a very productive tape sessions. He looked up Sonny's brother's name on the internet as well as sought confirmation, on his identity in history, books and documents about the mafia. He found nothing but still believes in this story and those related to him by other relatives. He decided to go to the definitive source about the mafia. The FBI after a few days working his way up the chain of command. He was finally directed by a department head to talk to a man who was described as the expert on the history of the mafia. He promised to be a person who would definitely be able to confirm Polly's existence and ranking if he did in fact exist He did confirm the Polly Lefty was not only known by law enforcement authorities, but that he was known to be the consigliare for
five families. He was stunned and knew that he had been offered a unique opportunity to learn secrets that had never been disclosed before as the sag unfolded he granted an inside into he was granted. He gained an insight into the origins of the american Mafia, its principal key players, as well as unknown bosses who ran the whole syndicate in a shroud of secrecy. Are the book we're featuring this evening is for members only, and it is not just an export aid. It is an in depth, look into the life and times of known figures in secret bosses who reigned supreme during the formative years in the growth of the mafia worldwide. The book we're featuring this evening for members only the story of the mob secret judge with my special guest, Jerry Vero, welcome to the program, and thank you for the agreeing to this interview, Jerry Vero thanks and thanks for
well. Thank you very much. This is going to be a very, very interesting interview because of the information in in this book it's a real eye. Opener and it's a a lot of the miss that have been built up over the years from all kinds of source not only fictional but also non fiction sources, as we find out from this this book that you described as an expose the certainly it can qualify as that. Now tell us Jerry. How tell us how you were related to the to these people. And Why? This was an important story that decided, or people around you decided that it was important to be told This story tell us how you related and why this is an important story that needed to be told. Well, I'm the great nephew of Paul
Dela, University and university, an organized crime family when you have a powerful figure like that, sometimes you're too close to him in relation like a son or a daughter, sometimes you're too far away? I was perfect. I was right in the middle because his older sister Sadie, the entry the family was my grandmother well growing up, not only personal experiences I had with him and but stories that I overheard some, I just overheard as a kid that they didn't think I listening, others I asked out right as I got older and I found out that he was a powerhouse of some, sorry, but I didn't know why I didn't notice Pacific. I didn't know whether he was leader of some sort. He dealt with all five families, and I didn't know why, because everything that I knew about organized crime, it didn't make sense. Well, I started interviewing his brothers as realizing I better get this into
the nation, because I was brothers and sisters started, passing away and They all wanted this story told about their brother for various reasons, and I and I thought the story needed to be told as well, because there's so much fiction out there and- and I watch the least documentaries- and I just left some bands, like you guys I don't know what you're talking about. That's, not really what happened, so I thought to get it out there, but at the same time, I don't want to expose anybody that still life so a lot of the people in the book that were close to my uncle of already long gone, and I did the best I can research and found out that none of their descendants are involved either. No you made the phone call to GT hero. Yes, I I mean I would believe. Why did you pick GT?
what was it about Gt Herald that you thought you couldn't get from another author? What was it especially about him that it was of interest to you and your family because he was former, he was retired army intelligence. And I knew from again much documentaries and reading books and movies that there was a reason why my great uncle was never mentioned, and I knew of other names that were mentioned. I said my uncle was very close to him, so there was a reason, some kind of conspiracy. I thought, maybe that he was immensely. So I knew that Gt Harrell having that position that he would be able to go up the ladder in the FBI where they were ignoring me. I never heard of him never heard of him and all that type of stuff, so they would talk. To him, knowing that he would he would he would get the information, but yet he would keep it in confidence which he did. So we can't name who told him, Sir, thank, but he was able to climb up the ladder. Can we call the FBI to going to look into yeah this guy, his army intelligence, retired
was the main reason, and then he did some other projects before he sold some script the Hollywood, which I know he was a good right only. He was recommended by the two lorries We hired one, an entertainment lawyer can lake and another criminal lawyer John Lake, and who was very helpful in our research by the way and actually now He's a circuit court judge in Sarasota Florida right. Yes, so that would be a great a great choice, because without the the F b I confirmation and somebody being trusted in being able to get that information we still might not have the story would be. No well. I mean G was was so then even want to write the story initially because you know when it when he started. He recognition initially read transcripts of interviews with the last Sunday, the last living brother. We went to New York city. We hired a stenographer. We did interviews in front of the lawyers because we also have to make
you're too. At you know you can't about any murders, is no statute of limitations, so the lawyers would have for protection as well as verification will GT originally got these transcripts to look through any in research all over the internet he couldn't find it is. He found some stuff on Sunday, some drug charges, you in that it that he had been nothing on board, so he didn't want to write it because he didn't want to write about what he thought was a fake character. So he that's why he started work his way up the FBI and then, of course, when he came to New York city when he did his actual interviews GT during the original interviews with the stenography came later, we so be better my uncle on camera because he's not getting any younger than to some old, is in little ITALY. Some would go on camera briefly and realized it take me off and what not
and it was really convinced, but he wasn't going to do it until we had some sort of pro. What would have convinced him proof? I mean it's tough to say truth, because he for some reason that the F b I want releases records, I'm in a criminal lawyer has tried- and they said it's classified Weiss's records classified put anyway. Gtg got enough information to make them feel comfortable in going forward with the book, and he believes that in fact, Lee and he's just begin until this day gets more information on its own. It's just that curious about it. Interesting so in terms of the the he had the interview with your with you and your family. I was pretty convinced after that and of course, that he got confirmation from the F b I by he as a journalist as as a guy that knows a good story. He knew he was on to something and very convincing people as well. I'm sure
people are all you know yourself as well. Now tell us how this all started tell us about your great articles or your uncle's part, Maine and great uncles, and tell us about their background in Sicily. How tell us uh as much as you know about that and told in the book as well. Well, obviously, they were both born and the it was a circle of the times, lower east side of Manhattan. On on March, ST now, let you know later on. It became known as little ITALY because of all the immigrants that came from ITALY came to that general area and different blocks with different with different areas of of ITALY, Sicily and Calabria, Naples and whatnot. Well, the store I heard when they first came over is that their father was trying to get away from the gangsters in the fashion and Sicily and when they arrived in and the lower recite they weren't prepared for what they saw,
What they experienced well, Italians are discriminated against. Send a major way that was signs in the in the store fronts. That would say, Italians need not apply and things of that nature and my Father Antonio Del universe of Pale and Sonny's father wound up having to work for the some of the very people he was trying to get away from in Sicily. Well, they were very poor. They had taken a border at one point: to live in the house with them on top of that, the mud the died very young ones when the lasts child Sonny was born the mother passed away. While my grandmother Sadie had a drop out of school to take care of the family, she was fourteen all the herself at the time she can only do that for so long and then what wound up happening is five, that is a seven children were sent up to one off an edge to be raised. I mean at at the stake about
that they take away five Eddie's, seven children, while my grandmother Sadie stood behind. She was already old enough to take care of herself and Paulie stood behind. Because from what I was told, one thousand one hundred and twelve years old, he already had his own ray it's going on in the naval as he stood behind. So it's it's a story to tell also show people. You know what some of these italian immigrants. Don't want, it were pushed into it. They had choices, but they weren't choices. You either change your name through an americanized name like a lot of them did. Did you try to function and you take the job in the streets which which they would do they had pride and others just you, you know what I'm this this route of crime crime and I also leave from hearing stories from my great uncle organized crime is not created equal completely. At the pens I mean someone, events of Prostitution ring versus someone that runs a club with
gambling and boos and things like that created the same. You know I mean that eventually becomes legal anyway, the prof, tunisian rings to drugs and and American hi- that's a difference Adam also. It's not all created equal, so I learned a lot from them and they they have some very rough lives. But that being said, it needs it at at the seven children five and it is seven became legitimate got. Would you jobs? It was just Pauly and sunny that got involved in organized crime. Now you talk about being around. To a certain degree and in hearing the stories what families are we talking about for those that are not so familiar with some of the names that are very familiar, tell us about who
your uncles, were supposed to be connected with how work connected with well one name that is not going to pop out in people's head is a guy named Jimmy Alto. His real name has been sent, they out the Mata. He was from Sicily and he actually owns for different clubs. An the lower east side. He only one on one hundred and sixteen Marsh Street that my uncle eventually took over one on one Sixty nine aspect, He owned another club, which was called out till nights social club, which is recorded in history, where all the you know the Who usually the mafia hang out? There earn any old another grill down in that area another name that most people never heard of yet I heard from his grandson, the guy's name is Lenny Azzarello. He sent me pitch Jimmy out, though he sent me for some reason he was
me out. There was also a high ranking Freemason, which I never knew knew Italian, throw involved that I have all that documentation, but it was after the book was published that guy Lenny, by the way is, is very highly educated. He's got he's got from masters from Nyu he's got a bachelor brought all beneath an embryo. What winning music composer she isn't just some know. Loser he's a credible guy. Well was one of my uncles main people, so should I get off topic. My uncle poorly was the only person that may be. Maybe you know these academics out there and historians never heard of there were quite a few of them well to the main people That's my mentor mentors! If you will was Jimmy Alto, lucky Luciano, and my lansky that I know of, and they taught him different things Alto and Luciano, a full blooded Sicilians. Just like my Boy, they kind of took him under his wing and my lance schooled him
on how to control your temper and had it is a business. This isn't about just breaking heads all the time, and I think that's why my uncle became constantly Eddie Advisor later magic at all that, but those are some of the names that way involved, but he never became a made man he didn't have have he wished. He was independent. He dealt with all five families and his take was could be a made guy. It means that you are all the by somebody, your own by one of the family. Can you get a check ups, and I'm only had enough power. From Luchiano an alto and then the job that he later had is the liaison between Sicily and the United States we didn't have to. But those are some of the names that, but he dealt with all five family, so it again follow Gambino, you're, very close to Carlo, because again another fellow full blooded society, he was close with Joe Banano. He was close to Tommy Lukas very, very close, Vito Genevas. Even though Vito was from Naples,
he was close at all the who's who all the big names that people here, but his mentors were with Jimmy Alto, lucky Luciano, my Lansky right. Yeah well the all the other big names as well, now you say they ransom clean. They rank clubs was. Are they the kind of guys it in you knew early on or at the I guess, the public facade that these people were businessmen running clubs is that kind of the racket that they had well, I mean they provided a service that everybody wanted. People wanted to gamble, people wanted to drink and that's what they provided, but my uncle took over the club on on sixteen March street. And I know of police politicians and even famous people in the the movie.
Back, then they would go in his club and Barry. Apuzzo was one of them and they just wanted a table and they wanted to gamble and they wanted to hang out cigars and and and the air was a business to disguise the only difference was they did have a life to do it. So yeah was the legal, but an officer wasn't wasn't as bad as may be s as it's portrayed. Yeah yeah now tell us about what was the the public, or at least at the in terms of the police and most people when you went through the records, what was what was your uncle's known for over the racquets, as they were known for in terms of from the police point of view well sunny the youngest brother. He was well known as a major drug dealer. That's what he did. He got caught with other who's who organized crime
trafficking heroin? That's was, he was trafficking in dealing heroin and he was dealing with You know some of the guys up and never made american gangster. The movie out of that. I forgot to uh. Nicky Barnes was one of them, but he dealt with him. He he was. He was telling him, but he was also kind of a goal for, for my uncle. Paulie Michael also had clubs all over this, baby where he would. He was the shylock. He would lend the money for the for the guys that wanted to gamble, so my uncle Sonny would go back for he would deliver the money he would pick. He would pick it up at my. You know kind laid love what they knew about my uncle but wouldn't reveal the records. Is that he traveled back and forth to Sicily. He would use different names going back and for now how he got that position was in
What is lucky Luciano had three conciliating, which was calm and back. Then it was Peter Genovese, Tony banner and of course, my uncle pooch lasting or when he was gonna when he was getting the port it. My uncle poorly was actually in line to take over that family. He want to be bothered with it. Because of what happened to the prior bosses of Marin, ANA Materia, then his Luciano getting deported so Luciano, took him under his wing. They gave the family to be again as a switch, my uncle, so it was a smart move. His veto was kind of a wild man, figure of eight take the family guide. You take this. You take the lime light we will veto. Was you know, kind of in debt to him for letting him do that, because Paul he was full blooded stallion. He was a mind to take over the Louisiana word or veto were served from Naples or poorly became what they later be heard to his ill master Jarrod. He would
go back and forth to Sicily. Initially he would go to Sicily and he would take messages from as as well as money. Ok, because he Luciana still had an interest in all five families, then he started to get to notice, sicilian bosses after Luchiano pass away. So basically he would go over there. He would get money typically money. You still. It was laundering the narcotics Monica science of drug trafficking. Bring over the money. He would lend it to the five families for one point a week and they would open. Could she They use it for the casinos in Cuba, Vegas and everything, so he was basically financing a lot of what all it wasn't. All the money didn't come from him, but a substantial amount of money came from him now in turn he operated his club. He did
what he wanted to do, but he was. He was a money man for all five families. He was protected by all five bosses. He was protect. You had the backing of the bosses in Sicily, so how he was described to me by all time, as he was a boss without a family and it was known only by the highest ranking guys. What his true position was. His club was his. Or to the lower ranking? I saw the sum of the police know said said: we talk to George over the phone would tell him, I think I know that our criminal lawyer John Lake, and also had some conversations with people actually right from the Department of Justice, but lot of Nypd never heard of them. Heard of him at all, I kind of laugh. What do you mean you never heard of me. Grew up on. Martin has a in the middle of little ITALY. His entire life is not that he lived in a small town in upstate New York. How can I can understand if you didn't know what his true position is, but how can you not know who he is? He lived he
born there and he died there? He never left so he I don't know I mean I don't already answer why they never heard of him. Before I mean I can I can. I can understand, I'm saying yeah. We know he was just this or that, but never heard of him. I can ever hear of everybody in little ITALY or default lefty. Now some of the famous crimes that are covered in this book include October. 31St, one thousand nine hundred and forty five tell us about what Paulie lefty mastermind on October 31st, one thousand nine hundred and forty five. As another interesting story. In October, one thousand nine nineteen and forty five, you mastermind the largest narcotics heist in american history. At the time
I've heard different variations of it with some people said that the government set him up. He never actually did it there, but what what the article reported as a four four or five page right up in true detective magazine, which is a big magazine at the time of course, the New York Times it up, but they were huge containers of morphine that was being sent over to the World war. Two world war two and know I didn't know how he did it at first for you when we were writing a book, but he obviously in others page, article and true detective, gets into details in a nutshell: they hijack fees, morphine tablets and tablets, containers on the docks ready to be shipped overseas. They put a on they took him and they put a in a garage and in our warehouse and they don't it. Okay, I've had some old timers dead, refuted that saying he never would have done that he he
more money than he. But then I have others say well, he was he was suspected that he was involved heavily with world WAR two he was. He helped Luciano in World WAR, two because Louisiana that well in English. For my uncle spoke, no good English with an accent. Little bit more than mine, maybe and fluent Sicilian, so he would have known about those containers being shipped over and what he did does after it was shipped over. He alerted the war department, so they can replace some immediately 'cause. He kind of felt bad about it, but it was a five hundred thousand dollars score in nine, forty five, which I don't know what the amounts to today. It was funny about that. Two things number will several things: one: how come that's never been reported in any newspaper any book. Never so I could just disappeared. It wasn't like it was. The back of a pharmacy was the largest. Now.
Excise in history at the time for farmers it so it, but I say, to somebody's academics at their satisfies all bologna. If you're a good historian a reporter, and you see this you're not going to save yourself. Who is this Paul Del Universe, the guy that pulls off something like this, How did he get away with it? He was either already a heavy hitter himself or he work for somebody who is, but the fact that it just disappeared so to speak, such a large heist. Until this day I still don't know, but that's that's what he did do a the largest narcotics in history at that time in nineteen, forty, five, five hundred thousand dollars and that's what they found. That's what they that's, what they suspected. I think it was right and that well yeah and for our audience as well. That might not know this term. The most of them probably do from deal sopranos and everything else. But what is it explain to our
just briefly? What a the is okay console is basically The italian word for a counselor achase bees an attorney for the family? Now people typically understand is that each family has its own constantly advisor counsel, whatever you want to call it, and he advises the boss on certain issues. Now he gets voted in by a lot of family members were and I'm the boss is just you know it certain certain members get voted in certain just get it because they move up in the next five days a move a boredom adequately. Okay, if someone dies offer, if there really good earn as they move up blood. Typically, they understand the council. The eighty four each family, like Robert, do vow was to conceal the area the godfather, he would always advise Mollin Brando, that's what he did now. Each fam
only has one designated new, typically, the most trusted member. My uncle was an advisor. Constantly adding out only for all five but other families throughout the country dealt with Chicago. He dealt with the Vegas bosses and the reason being is because he was neutral. He wasn't a member Has anyone family, so it would use him and sit downs because you would be neutral 'cause. He had no allegiance to any particular family and it he was just a money guy and that's what he did so a constantly at is a counselor and advise it's like a lawyer for the family right
now another of again for people to get a lot of information from the sopranos and movies like good fellows. I is interesting to that of how much accurate stuff is in those movies as well. People love those movie Sopranos Series, but there's a lot of stuff is lifted right from true life. One of these stories is the the airport heist in good fellows and will be good fellows and now in the book. You talk about that thirty three years later that you're well, it was involved in this height five million dollars in cash and eight hundred. Seventy five thousand dollars and jewels were storm and also that of Paul burial was was a business associate of
Holy Lefty. We'll talk about we'll talk a little bit about Jimmy Hoffa as well, but tell us a take us back to this high stakes for trade in the movie. Good fellas follow Kanza Heist, the re. You know he. Basically, what I was told by family members is that when this was being put together, that polls are consulted with Polly my great uncle on this his because who would know better a guy that got away with the largest one in history. They didn't get away with it, but he his we kept it from. You know small, little New York Times. Article is all they got out of it. He planned it and he but I got away with it. He was the last one to get caught, so they it s, consult and I consulted with them on a lot of things. You issue is supposedly a king s, just what I was told Paul Verio from what I was still consulted with him on exactly had
do it had a planet and my uncle my connections and ITALY's in know all about when the about when he had connections in ITALY, with where the planes were coming from three consulted with him on it now. The interesting thing is, I got to talk. Henry Hill before we passed away- and he didn't, I think about it, but he also admitted which makes sense that he wouldn't have known Of somebody like that, not high in that hierarchy of of organized crime, but some of his his boy pole area would have have dealt with my uncle. So he knew he could so again, all five families consulted him, and yet he was involved in know. He
some money at it, because I don't want to name over some of the family members of my family members got items from that. Heist alone was a that Gerard Perrigo Watch, which is kind of like in in the class of a rolex, and we were just told that yeah. This is some stuff well off the truck it at the airport. What we do is some stuff, this system, small items, no big deal for a day at you consulted with, so he wasn't. But yet at this point he was operating completely under the radar, so only pull Variot and some other heavy hitters would have known that he was even consulted. The rest of them are not gonna know he. He he remained under the radar and he preferred it that way. Now one more. I apologize for this, but this is some of the stuff that really fascinates people this connection to some of the legends and myths that Surround the mafia, and one of those is the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa, again
Paul burial and your uncle Polly Lefty are involved here. So at also another name that came up to the interesting I interview be Philip, Carlo in one of my earlier very the programmes and to end the he had written a book about Richard Cook, Linsky men for the mob, so tell us about Richard, Kuklinski and Paul Verio and Jimmy Hoffa. Well, what. I'll, tell you how this will happen. The Gt Harold was this point interview in my uncle Sonny on a regular basis. You would call him into an interview, amount of regular basis and he recorded all of it by the way will one day he has my uncle Sonny down at his house. Visiting him in Jacksonville and sunny is talking to Gt Harrell son. Ok, Chris Anise. Let's tell him about different things, and he she just not sure when you get with these old timers, they have so much information that they they go in different
directions and it's tough to keep him on one subject. While he starts talking about yeah and I'll pull Variot at this chop shop on Flatlands Avenue in Brooklyn, And I used to go visit him there. You had one on fountain avenue used to go visit him we used to eat and all that now you know how many bodies they crushed in there used to charge about thousand one thousand five hundred per body he supposed name and all these names and in the middle of it he says, Hoffa Georgia's GDP, the other in the other, slide down slight. What is that what he said? Half Jimmy yeah Jemmy Jimmy he goes. So that's the the big deal much a big deal. I I understand I mean you guys are the ones that accuser taken out to give up our President John, F, Kennedy to him. Awful wasn't a big deal. Well, he asked him the story in detail. What what happened? He says, pull Variot called him come on down. I got something
so. He used to go down and visit poll very on a regular basis because he said he used to cook good and use like the we cook and hang out with him. He showed him. It was a black car Remember was a Cadillac Lincoln was opened up the back door and in the in the back of the black car was a rolled that someone rolled up an oriental type brought opens it up. There's office, it now white face you here. Amazon with what a bullet hole in his head rolled it back up. He took it over to the to Are they the crushing machine picked it up put in across crusher and, as its crushing was a little stick it the ground,
Full burial had a hose there, any at his thumb on it. There was no mas only spray in the car down as it's crushing it 'cause fluids, or you know, coming out all over it welp. He he tells that story. He doesn't he his ass several times. So, with George did Gt Harold, so I keep call enjoyed his name is George. He interviewed him several different times. Five or six. Occasions and asked him. The story sunny, told the story verbatim every single time to achieve remember seventy years old at the time he he doesn't know who killed them, doesn't know why he wound up in New York. He just knows the the last place you saw him was there you already does. Little research and he finds out that some very credible people, starting with Phil But now the sun of Open Anna was told by his father that Jimmy offer in fact was crushed in a car and was in a bumper of some GM vehicle, and then I'm watching an interview on TV,
Richard Kuklinski Cook interviewing him and they asked him what happened. He left because I heard he was he was crushed in a car. Well that makes sense on several levels because you know been Work worked at area of Brooklyn, ok, Colombo, more down by avenue you they work at Richard, richer. Kaminski worked. I used to used to do get food for the the crew, crew and De Mayo crew. In that same neighborhood, so that all makes sense and then made sense to me is about twenty years earlier, when I was living in Queens New York, I was at a whole new level of mesh if we were stealing cars. And we were smashing them up. You were playing smash up derby, so my uncle Sonny grabs me one time, I'm probably twenty years old. So what the heck you doing here kid vandalism is the absolute worst crime you get nothing out of it. He goes come with me. I got to take it so much. He takes me,
My cousin, this is the late eighty summer in Brooklyn, and he takes us to Brooklyn and there's these rows of these John killers. It was right off of the Bell Park. I think Pennsylvania so Avenue so long story short. We go pull up, pull up. It's about. Eleven hundred o'clock at night goes to the and some I still very funny. How are you doing? Let me in front of the front of the John, with all the beat up cars. As you went back your sword, washing machine is so the single wide mobile home trailers are used at and he took me all the way in the bath, but had this garage and you could see through the win she could see something going on in their lights. Sparks runaway was a chop shop. They got no cars back. There they actually gave you a list on a piece of paper. Grand am three hundred dollars called that desk blah blah blah, so long story short leave him we're pulling away, and I and I said Uncle Sir: what's the deal
so that's fully Verio shop, I didn't know who Paul Verio was yet I never heard of him because Goodfellas wasn't out yet even know the the heck it was I'll. He left because hack, how many parties across That's what offer went, that's what they do with offer. They got rid of him in there me and my cousin looked at your hair right and he just laughed it off and never said another word. We never followed up with it, but the point being is twenty years earlier. Approximately he told me the same, that's as brief as he mentioned, but I was at that shop shop and then he tells the same story. If you know about twenty years later, that's what I told George, I I says he's telling the truth and George as well. If you just look through the book, some of the the claim your uncle Sonny makes from the heist in defending and self court against against a famous judge, Irving younger from his fear,
so with the near all these things that he claims and he could lay to prove. How can you not believe a word that guy says he can prove everything just about that? What he saying with documentation that we put in the book. So that's how that story went to GT believe that immediately, and you know that's what we put it in the book. Is this other famous people that that back it up on top of sunny looks sunny is when he did the interview in Manhattan? He had a pitcher dissent. If you know he says that his brother passed the mind of the largest narcotics heist in history the time but never now, but it was never been reported. He defended himself at. And Court- ok and Wanda, Hey Beas Corpus against a famous prosecuting attorney, became a judge and later professor, the same judge, befriended him and carried him later in his private chambers, oh by the way I
when I became a the shot, an off Broadway engineer did his first acting job there. Okay, so he walks out the attorney doing the interviews looks at me as either we have the greatest story. You never told your uncle is a little bit off his rocker Of course he comes in with all this documentation everything, but he just said he's got his marriage certificate in areas got all kinds of we to read the book. You've seen it, we could document all of it. At this point, point change you, you gotta believe everything that's and and that's where he got his credibility. That's what George you know, Chichi Harold believe Tafel when he said it, because you can track everything else up. There is some year it's the end of their in some really legitimate entertainment to when you're talking about off off Broadway and and get having the opportunity where Deniro did his first role, where he played five different characters. So if you know that
the of the eleven to real power to people to in in in organized crime where people are owning major casinos in major entertainment clubs and, like you say, it's a different environment when prohibition was when this whole thing started, or in at least in the Ortiz were with prohibition. It really you weren't. On the other side of the law, everybody in Dole's did all these things tell. It became legal right, it's so great and and and and that was interesting, different direction and he took in a that- a prison. He changes his name from sunny deli universe to Antony Animal in order to to disassociate himself from from his his brother and is a drug dealing life. He opens up up a and Eddie opens up right in the heart of the off off Broadway district. At that I'm run by Ellen Stewart, La Mama and within a short
period of time. He gets referred to as La Papa and he had all kinds of fame people in there again, including Robert. We did it ever his first ever acting job, that's documented in and autobiography autobiography, as well as on the internet in the village voice and some of those other. So that was an amazing story in itself and there was some other famous people there as well, but He said he never would have gotten that spot in in the Off Broadway district. And he wouldn't have the money to open up the theater do any of. If it wasn't for his brother Paulie Little did he know that Deniro according to him him his brother for travel out me nudity, thought that little ITALY was a bitch. Is that body now I've been told by people that even monstrous, as he probably knows, that lefty was the fish, he was very influential and organ.
Cry, but they don't know the specifics like why. Why is the boss is coming up, then? Why is he getting treated this vehicle, such as the club on They didn't know the reason why he was so. We didn't know the details either until you know the little small This will really you saw from Tony Napoli and that's nothing. We have three or four hours of dvd with all kinds of details that he told us he's the one who kind of connected connected not for us when so many areas in the block with gray? Will we knew my uncle is a leader, but why why the five families listening to what it just doesn't make sense is no such thing as a constantly and eat all five families. What's going on and of course, Tony Napoli many old timers connected that test. Why don't you tell me you're anymore and I've enough to go on time? So it gets really-
interesting, and I think both brothers, a fascinating and GT, seems to think that the all Broadway Broadway and got got all kinds of information. That's a separate book that should be a separate book because there's a lot more to it right, now when you talk about in the in the book too, is that the the to dispel the myths of that is that of grown over the years about the mafia, in fictional accounts and and nonfictional accounts is something about families and crews. Tell us, explain that and dispel the myth. Well, my uncle Sonny told us is that they would never refer to his family's back in the days which crews cruise though there was sets of cruise he says actually the term family they got from. It was a reporter in the newspaper that this find certain cruise families,
ok, because italian related and families, and that's how the families go their names are wasn't from the commission when they started five families. That was that was created by a journalist who call these, different cruise? You know: one crew ran Brooklyn, one crewman Manhattan, Queens construction, different these series of cruise. They take it easy, maybe all under Calo Gambino, for example, he handled all these crude yet get one copper, running one crew, one couple: another crew, one, another crew, but back then he said they were known as, like. That's the sixth avenue crew, that's one hundred and eight street crew. That's this! That's that, like some of the famous names, the Purple Street gang the Mulberry Street crew, see, if you think about it, you could look. You can document this. It is. There was a group called the Mulberry Street crew will accrue. They were just a crew of guys and because of the journalists coming up with this
They became known as a family and then, of course, the organized crime adopted it as well and record. Well he's with his family, which you. So it's proof. If you look back that they would each different crews, they will call Cruz had they become family with a Mulberry street crew was a part of what they refer to as the Geneve Say family. So that's what sunny remembers as and that's his take. I don't know if that's necessarily true or not, it makes sense. If you look, he basically said they never call them. Families are always cruise and now is, is his take on on one, and I don't know exactly the time frame of when a change from cruise to families. But if you look at some of them, they are you know to the state. You know avenue you
that's what they were called, but later they were associated with one big family family. Apart from this meant that myth we just covered, what was the biggest myth? Did you had had believed in it? That was dispelled by virtue of this entire project being completed, book? Well, the biggest one was probably that the old timers were against drugs, and you know you are- they didn't get it, they were involved in drugs and they were against drugs. And if you got caught, you know dealing drugs are doing. You know you, you're kill, are kind of baloney baloney that drugs way back when and and there was a major major heroin coming in through the docks and and my uncle negotiated with the help of not Albert Anastasia but tough Tony, and it stays in your.
To allow the sicilian steamships to come in and give him a period of time sat alone before they were searching and negotiate a use. Tony Anastasia to negotiate. With the unions and the heroin came in from fruit cans, olive oil cans heard of cappuccino machines. So whatever I would watch a special Thirty eight say out: the old timers were against drugs organised great baloney, there were major and drug trafficking. They did heroin out of Sicily through the fray connection course connection and all that, and then they had the cocaine coming from South America, so they were into all that was to me it's the biggest myth and I can't believe
Some documentaries are out there that still say that it's the biggest Barney yeah I've seen that quite a few of quite a bit in a probably about the last ten or fifteen years has been read, and it's almost, I repeated like it's it's factual. So I was interested in in that rate in that conclusion, as well yeah, especially because you're you're Holly was doing that. What what was a poly or sunny pardon me that we should did the morphine Well was Sonny was dealing Heroin and Paul was the one who is responsible for masterminding the that big, a dollar. Five hundred dollar morphine ice, the nineteen forty five, he was sonny- didn't have enough juice to do that, Sonny, able to do his drug dealing. Whatever he was doing because of his brother Polly, only poorly had the power hour to set something up on the docs like that and not have to
check with anybody was already he was already on, as she was already a high ranking guide to had the backing of all the heavy weight. So the wouldn't he wouldn't dealing drugs, he would get drugs. I don't even think he got it from his brother and he would get it and he would cut it and he would deal it up and in a town, Manhattan and- and you know, Harlem and and some of the shia other gangsters territories enjoy the that time into the forties as well. Supplying morphine heroin, basically saying basically, basically same drug there, also and far removed from the street by dealing with heroin and more. Been basically people of more means would be able to report afford some of this, or at least they were separated from the street level dealing in the small drug dealing.
Right. Well, yeah like sunny, for example, he was dealing directly with people and handing it off with the money. Paulie never got involved that he was above that he would just he he was behind the trafficking. He was letting him bring it in and he was just getting the money for, but he had nothing, but he never put hands on any of it to do anything like that. He wishes just setting up the trafficking end of other people would distribute for for him. He never. He touched anything like that. He was. He was, was that that tell us about Irving younger, because this is a quite the achievement based on his stature as a prosecutor and as evidence that he was elected judge a little bit later, tell us about yourself, the or partly defending himself and Irving the younger. Well, my uncle sunny was arrested for counter.
Getting money or what they claim to be counterfeiting money and he had this apartment and he had, I think, five thousand dollars. It was of all twenty well, he was, I'm sure he won't. You absolutely was counterfeiting the money when he got arrested. The cops are running up. The stairs and he tossed all the money out onto the street and, of course, p arriving and they were grabbing it will when he, we've tried. He defended himself in court against a prosecuting it attorney at the time named Irving younger. He didn't know who he was when he was doing the interviews for the stenography, the attorney, was interviewing him any mention Irving. He stopped just an auger for, for me, says here you were having other sizes yeah. I know man, he eighty l a he have clean hands the attorney new who he was because apparently Irving younger has a book called the book of evidence and when you take the bar and you study to be in train law school, that's a book, it's a mandatory book to read called
the book of evidence, but sunny had no idea when he was doing the interviews, but anyway he defends himself in court and he wins would equals a hevia Scorpius 'cause when he said to the judges they wait a minute you're telling me exactly. Five thousand dollars was found that I was counterfeiting, yours, that money wound up on the street. Ok, how does? How? Can you tell him? They found every single twenty twenty bill there and it amounted to five thousand dollars a claim of note. So he won this habeas corpus. Well, Their Irving younger approached him. Him in command get out. While you did a great job there and what not and he started meeting with him, for lunch after that, instead of talking to him about gangsters and sunny kept telling
No, no! No! This guy didn't do that. This is what happened, and he started to enlighten Nerving younger that you know what our government and as crooked as we are. We are people up and it's not even true. He says he knows his cases where they took drugs from one case put it in one room. The next defendant comes in. I happen to be a gangster. They bring that same stash in and he started telling him that, and at least he claims that he believes that he inspired Irving, I'm going to write the book of evidence in the first place to to determine corrupt evidence from legitimate evidence, and he would meet with him several times after that. Well then, when he got out, he got into the theater, he invited younger to his wedding. He couldn't make. It is time Irving, younger the from a prosecuting attorney to a defense attorney to a judge, ok and he married him and his private as a favorite to sunny to show
his loyalty to him for everything that all the information is son gave him to help him to get to that point and obvious you know we have a copy of the marriage certificate scanned in the book with signature. An even bigger, extend it and she, the more than the attorneys that read the book. Ok right there told through a source that F Lee Bailey, so it was blown away wanted to meet my uncle Sonny. I want to meet this guy if he was adding would Irving younger during the beginning years, and it's amazing how funny I mean just you so in the book he was in prison, Rikers Island. You know ring responded to gave game his home and his work number, but this time he was already a profession, University of Minnesota. Of course we had a black out the numbers, but it's amazing. When you,
think about it. How many gangsters well known convicted drug dealers and banksters? Do you think Irving younger was friends with probably just him and and why was he meeting with him? Why was he mean with him and asking him? Because you know why I think Irving younger knew more about Sonny's brother than sunny did, I think Irving Young already knew that was, was a high ranking member and by meeting with sunny, he would get to ask him questions about the who is who is a mob began as a citizen of the world, because Sonny was around and because of his brother, and he was getting information about guys just like that. In fact, the the agendas Sonny claimed was shut up you never into drugs. He was doing other things and he was one of the people that was set up and sent to prison anyway, serving yoga know about that so yeah, it's kind of amazing how how we be friends buddy an icon, like Irving younger.
You think Irving younger was just curious as to what actually was going on rather than the position he believed he was. Know I mean he's of a man of power in an position and information but at the same time getting the real deal from somebody. Do you think that's really what it was? Well, that's what my uncle Sonny Clams! He shows a very. I'm passionate guy any thought, everyone deserves a fair trial and he didn't like the idea that the government will issue the abusing that power and putting these gangsters in jail on a grant that they were a choir boys, but they will be was merely using whatever they could to put them in jail just because for example veto database used to run a thing called the g racing. Will they couldn't catch him on that? Ok, They wanted him in jail, so they used drugs that he was into drugs. To put
in jail and territory wasn't into. He was against his hey. Look if you can't prosecute the guy, what he's really don't all come up with a bogus charges to get him in jail. So he was talking to sunny about that because he knew Sonny knew what these guys were reaching going to earn their income, and I- and I think it's so sunny- is you know basically x. That's the reason why Irving younger would meet with him and ask him these questions city and then, of course, he became a defense attorney. Stop working for the state. A job at gym wrote the book of evidence. I mean that that makes it all kind of makes sense with Sonny was sign right now. How long did this book take from the beginning? The tape sessions how long the genesis of this book it took about two and a half years to write an obviously was told through the eyes of the family. So there's this back. You know there there's some speculation
why these things were happening, so it took over two years, and I have to tell you from tone Napoli interviews which some and we actually have a one hour. Documentary. That's just about finished at an independent producer in Florida is completing. Includes Tony Napoli and retired, deep, undercover narcotics age and the judge, and some other people that are being interviewed in there, so that book took two and a half years, but we're starting to connect the dots so there's other books that really need to follow this book as well, and I'm not not sure what a sequence to write them, because as big as my uncle was these different all these different people that are coming out, there's so much more information. I don't know where to start so that book is is just the beginning, but that's good because it tells his child
It tells his family life now tells about his brothers and sisters and maybe why he became who he came and some of the benefits afforded to other family members because of this power, yeah. We didn't know why we will go over there to buy your car go here. They could get jewelry, they didn't know why. We just know Uncle Paulie knows the people, so that book covers all it at that. That's the beginning. That's really a boy but it took two and a half years. We had to revise it recently in twenty twelve because of new information. We had. We want to make sure it was more accurate, so we just revised it for two thousand and twelve, but it took two years, and this is more books that are going to follow that which you're going to get more into detail on what he action we did and who we actually dealt with. Are there any disgruntled people that either didn't disagreed with some
stuff in the book war was there, you had any critics at all. Well, of course you have your critics extent sad? It's just all baloney he was, he could have been that powerful or I would have known about it and things like that. So you have those critics typically, historians, academics or a lot of bloggers out there where they just talk about organized crime, they read files and they they believe everything I guess they don't want they don't half of these files are typically files are what what what what's what aren't they allowing you to read any sort of good morning. Vietnam, they redacted all of it. She had those people that are challenging and they just don't grasp but I have more than enough people that have come. And have their own stories about him, see it. It just add disgruntled and, of course, there's certain family members as well, that don't believe it, and they just can't go
that the fact that you weren't supposed to know I mean write a letter. So I believe it was Albert De Mal. He didn't know his father was a serial killer killed over a hundred people. He was a mafia hitman, he didn't know until he got think he was in his forties, John Guy. Junior, did an interview. Sixty minutes worries where he said he was in military school and he finds out on tv front of these eighteen He has all the fun all these other people, John, guided, upholstered, again being or family and all the guys kind of turn around and look at so it's tough to tell someone very close to their father or whoever. That might be that, yes, he was just. I would have known that there are disgruntled
that just not going to believe no matter what you tell him, no matter who comes out and says what, but that's just full part of it. I mean us, that's just the way it is you've had more validation than I'm not trying to point out say that you have a lot of criticism, but you have more validation than that would offset any of criticism whatsoever. Haven't you yeah well I'll, say I'll say it this way, I've had more credible validation. I've had criticism, but from people that wouldn't have known anyway, people that just read mafia books and have written on blogs, and you know you have access to public records if you have access the public records. All the information you can get, what you get at a public records less whatever is redacted. I've had the opportunity to sit down with dozens of all time
one that I actually got on camera as you can see Tony Napoli and got the information right from them, and and very few people If any of my age at forty four have had that opportunity should- and they talk to me because I know I'm not, name them unless less they wanna, be I'm not gonna, say hey Joey Bats told me this Frankie to knows told me. I don't have to I put it in my head. I've been all this information from these different people to name whose telling we want so I could sit down with these old timers dealt. Tell me what they know about my uncle and I'm not going to reveal who told me, because I already have enough credibility by some of the people I sat down with that. I was able to show on camera that I sat down with many of them, so my information comes from the guys that lived it, not the records that, were you, know, redacted and adjusted by people that don't want the truth to be known,
and some critics don't get that. But you know again, I got more credible validators and I do credible critics now for people that are been interested with the program tonight. Listening to us talk about for members only this is the story of the the mobs secret judge you at you have a fantastic website, and this will keep people abreast of what's going on in the future, when this documentary will come out and all the information about the book and everything else tell us about your website and any other information, and that's coming or not information, but any new things that are coming down the pike very soon. Well, you could you could find all the information on our website, its mafia secret, judge, dot com. We have several Facebook pages on the four members,
call in Paul left you can put in you could find that we have several groups and pages and a lot of supporters, and all of this you could find out information there and currently living in the LOS Angeles area, where I'm from Southwest Florida, where I was living in New York. Florida now LOS Angeles, because magic is really starting to take off. We haven't signed any deals yet but with the internationally with Russia and China about publishing the book and documentary over there and we're we're really starting to gain some, some momentum here and I'm taking my time. So I want to make the big deal, but you're going to see this as a feature film you're, going to see several books to follow, including probably my memoirs, my life growing up in that family and and how this six year journey when we started the book in two thousand and six developed into this book in this project. My personal journey, so there's a lot to come any. Basically. In a nutshell, then I mean we're.
Exposing. If you want to use that word, one of the most powerful guys in organized crime. History, that's never been. Revealed before I mean he's been who is the ceo of the mafia for forty years now? There's a lot of conspiracy theorists out there who believe that is really a sa government run in a show and all at which they could be right. But there are in that same group critics that believe this can't be possible will, of course, there guys behind the scenes running the show, and how do you think you was so successful so successful? So we basically revealing Al Capone for the first time, and I said that in front of an old timer and he laughed- and he says no- your uncle was much more powerful than Al Capone. Al Capone was She wasn't a Colin, he was born in Brooklyn and he wound up in Chicago because Luciano in the boy look you're not going to be your boss here, hit the road chase them to Chicago your uncle,
brand New York through the. So how can a companion revealing a bigger guide in that? And that's for me to grasp grass the validation, all honesty, Tony Napoli is the one who started this when he came out and validated. My uncle was that created other people to come out of the woodwork and back him up because he's such a credible He really started this whole ball rolling. Before that I was getting critics because I had family members and other people, so we have him in a judge. Then you have several other people on facebook that a well known at Italian I'll, tell you this story so because of him being validated. Now that this story is being proven, that actually is true to this. Guy was able to do that. It's no like you couldn't believe this things happen daily just so you follow us on Facebook and go check.
The website. You'll see all the new updates that are happen on a regular basis and also do do personally. Thank your brother James as well for connecting myself to you and enabling and helping with the for this interview, so I want to thank you very much for that to your brother sure, let him now well. I want to thank you Jerry for on the program I will have to have you back on. I'm sure that we'll have to have you back on. That's all there is, and we and been for those with listing it's for members, only the mobs the story of the mobs secret judge with Jerry virile. Thank you very much for coming on to the program and speaking about this very, very fascinating subject in book. Thank you, joy. Thank you, Dan. Thank you very much for having me ok, good night good night. Loyalty is all about being there day in day out
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Transcript generated on 2021-06-10.