First came the unsettling Ouija board prophesy that Robin Adams would die before her 17th birthday. When a minister was summoned to rid the house of frightening phenomena blamed on the Ouija board, he was taunted and denounced by a neighbor and suspected Satanist. Thus, the die was cast for one of the most bizarre murder cases in Michigan history. In 1976, when Robin vanished without a trace from the village of Caro, police were left without a body, witnesses or anything remotely resembling a crime scene. The case went cold for six years. Then, when a rookie state police detective was assigned to reopen the investigation, what followed reads like chapters from a Stephen King novel -- right down to the claim that the killer's grandmother was practicing black magic to avenge efforts to bring him to justice. FRUIT OF THE POISONOUS TREE-Richard Carson
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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first came the unsettling Weegee Board prophecy that Robin Adams would die before her 17th birthday.
When a minister was summoned to rid the house of frightening phenomena, blamed on the Ouija Board
he was taunted in denounced by a neighbor and suspected Satanist, thus the
die, was cast for one of the most bizarre murder cases in Michigan history
in nineteen. Seventy six, when raw
and vanished without a trace from the village of Kero police went we're left,
without a body witnesses
or anything remotely resembling a crime scene. The case
went cold for six years. Then we
Rookie State police,
second was assigned to reopen the investigation. What followed reads
like chapters from the Stephen King, novel right down
to the claim that the killer's grandmother was Pratt
sing black magic to avenge efforts to bring him to justice the book
we're featuring
this evening is fruit of the poisonous tree with my spare
show gas, journalist and author Richard
Carson Welcome
to the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview, Richard Carson,
thank you for having me it's my pleasure.
Thank you very much.
I want to make sure that I'm pronouncing the name is it Kero or Cairo? Is the White River? Yes
Icarol,
okay, now up one
the questions. I typically ask him what
How did you come to write this book? What without giving anything away? What was it
about this story. Or how did you come to write this book?
are the poisonous tree. Well, it it
I should I should mention fruit of the boys
history. Is the e book
which derives from the published version
which was called murder in the thumb, and I the reason for
title changes, we did some some editing and tried.
Make the book a little more presentable to people out
the area where the crime occurred. How I
How I became interested in
I had worked for the small daily is
in hearing county
which is the northernmost county in the thumb of Michigan,
there for fifteen years during
that time. I'd covered two murder trials, but I left the the the paper, the small daily
in nineteen eighty one and
settled in Columbus, Ohio on. I went to work for the Columbus dispatch, our
during that time, I was receiving the newspaper that I have left in Michigan and
I became aware that the trial of MEL
even Garza the suspect and eventual accused in Robbins Disip.
Parents was going to be in here in county, moved
from Carol, which is in
click on either the immediate SW. So,
now I'm aware of the trial, I read the coverage. I
I know that we Mcdowell the post
Mandarin Carrel, who I knew was a high schooler,
in bad axe MI, where
the paper was located.
He had reopened the investigation and further. I was
close friend of the circuit judge in Hearon County? Who would hear the case so
so I have some connections to the story. Our big the coverage of the in the of the two
trial really piqued my interest, but believe me, I had
no idea what
what lay ahead certainly now
we talked about Caro Michigan, and so let's do
describe this, you talk about it being a village, so, let's describe where it is in,
proximity to say
yeah, more notable, biggercity and so describe where it is, and what type of play
It's really Caro. Mi is an an it's in its size. So tell us a little bit more about Caryl Michigan before we talk about ok, well, care
Zero, a town of under five thousand population- it's located
Don't hold me the specifics here, but I'd say it's about
thirty five miles due EAST of Saginaw. Okay,
karo is an agricultural. I mean Tuscola
He is an agricultural county and
and Kero obviously, is the county seat
Carol. It, of course, is where Robin was
working as a live in babysitter when she disappeared and K stuck to the village.
It could easily qualify as a city, but the locals wanted to keep it a village, and I think they wanted to keep the village character
of the community that I think that is why that moved in that direction,.
They'll tell us about Robin and Danny Adams and
they moved from
Bay City to this world Karo with end
their step. Parents or Bill Millie Timko, so tell us there,
official foster parents and so tell us
about this arrangement and a little bit more
Robin and her
other Danny Adams. Ok, let's
They were born in in in pencil
but
eventually sure.
Their mother moved the family to to Bay City uh. The.
I I don't know if it gets
circuitous here.
Vera Adams claimed
Two
be a widow and
seem that her husband, the Father of Dan and Robin, had drowned
It is swimming accident or something that that's where we're not certainly not sure about that Shia
vera ran into Bill Timko
in his travels while she was still in in Pennsylvania and they kind of became an item and the book traces how how they met and and the the time,
that they traveled traveled around the country and they worked at county fairs and one thing and another user
they. During that time,
Robin and Annie were
relatives of you,
came from a large large family.
So eventually they move.
Bay, city and vera was still very much interested in build Tempco and bill by this time, had married and
live, had settled and Karel, and so he would build with the visit
Vera in Bay City and and he took a liking to two
Robin and Danny and took them
fishing and camping in one thing and another, and
Danny had a real attraction to bill
he's a father figure and one of the painful situations of the developed was bill, assured
and that he was not his father, even though he would have liked to think that he was so at that point.
The kids are in Bay, city, Robinson and Danny are in high school and
Danny, starts, pushing to live with bill and
Bill's wife, Millie and and their children in Kero and
vera their mother, resist this at first, but then
eventually she gives in and that they moved to Kero
and eventually that
where Robin met, Melvin, Garza and eventually Danny, which is
Explains in vivid detail in the book Dan
the kind of wore out his welcome with the TIM goes, he
He ended up on
They returned him to his mother and she shipped him back to his grandparents in Pennsylvania. So so so that's that's how
that's how the kids got to Caroll
and.
Robin met Melvin sister Nora, who who
Eventually, I had a role in Robbins disappearance and we can get into that later,
Isn't it great she she introduced Robin to her brother and
that's when their relationship started. Now you start this book,
and and introduce some characters early on that, of course, very, very important to the entire story into the end into the trial
in every aspect of the story. So
Let's, let's talk about uh
Dan Miller because you introduce Dan Miller early on and then of course,
he is the central figure in this story as well,
and also you talk about the Robin
and her brother,
the other family members in the temp sitting around and fooling around and having an interest in the occult.
Satanism Witchcraft, but it starts off with the Ouija board, so tell us a little bit about the we.
Keyboard experience
because I think it's very important to the story later on. Well,
basically Cheryl
call Cheryl Tyson
is Millie's daughter by a previous marriage.
And she was just a little bit younger than Robin and and they became real, like real sisters once once, the the atoms children
moved in with the temp goes, and it was Cheryl who suggested that they it
paramount with the Ouija board and
uh, it started out innocently enough and
I don't want to get too much in to the
Paranormal in terms of do. I believe these things are not believe them. I leave that up to the readers but
there is no question that problem
emanated from the Ouija board. Experience
not the least of which was the fact that it
one point a a I guess.
Is the best word I can use she identified her.
Glenda and she was
someone that they could communicate with with the Ouija board, And- and in this I mean-
two teenage girls here, fifteen years old. I think at the time
Robin me Madden in sixteen and
it's kind of a gleeful little
adventure that that they were involving themselves in, but it got it got it it
to a dark side, and they began to have here
steps on the stairs when no one was there and strange. So
bones in the attic that they joined their bedroom and the lights flashing on and off, and it just got completely out of hand and during during this extended,
experience with the Ouija board, the girls asked different things about their future.
Cheryl about whether she'd marry and have Children- and
Robin for some reason, I asked how long she would live and at that point the Ouija board predicted that she would die before her 17th birthday, which was
ominous and not totally accurate, because she disappeared six weeks before her 18th birthday. So
uh. Once all these phenomena took place
in the house. The girls no longer wanted to stay in their bedroom. They were, they were frightened.
So Millie called the
Local minister and he came to the house to
form. I guess you'd call it a an exorcism of whatever spirits
complicating everyone's a life.
In this house
when, when the minister arrived, the neighbor,
and the neighbor was was kind of a strange fellow. His
was Aubrey. Vincent
He was an artist, painter and sculptor, and he lived
us spartan life
in a one room, cabin that was
property that was right next door to where the typical is lived and he he was
friend friendly with the with the the kids and they would
sit around the campfire, and there was probably a little bit of pot, smoking and Beard
drinking going on it because he,
can't live out of the way and- and he was off the road, so it was
there was an element of privacy there for kids that kids typically have
questions really L. Look for that. So when
when the minister showed up Aubrey notice that the
this man that he doesn't recognize and he sees that he's holding a bible, and so he he
launch, is a rant and a noun
is the minister and it
hey the konfrontation of sorts, but the the
mister shook it off and Aubrey eventually stopped often
that was the end of that. But it
my frame of reference by the time you
gone through these various steps. This story is
heading to some really a little bit strange and I had,
as they say. I have seen nothing yet because there was a lot more
down the road that was going to complicate
my research and hopefully make the book
more compelling and interesting, the
you talked about Marvin, Gars
and MEL
pardon me, Melvin Garza an and you talked about a car accident, and you include this very early on in the book because you
it's important so and and
people at the time, like Heather Cape said that it made a difference, so tell us about briefly
the car accident and
call them before the car accident and afterwards and why it might have made a difference in his life. This accident, ok, ok! Well,
what happened
Melvin, incidentally, is very intelligent.
And very very skilled person, he
add a builders license when he was eighteen years old. The car
accident occurred,
what happened that a group of boys Melvin in his class three of his classmates.
Were involved in a home construction project that
as part of their high school experience, and
this particular home was not built.
Carol
but in Mayville, which is to the so
south of care? Oh, I think it's about eight or nine miles, so they pretty much finished this house and
there was going to be a uh
the boys volunteered to come and help their teacher clean up the the the
refuse and things that are left after you complete a construction project, the kind of clean up the site, and so they are the boys were
through with collapses, and they arranged there rain
to go to Mayville and clean up. This house is kind of a really pleased,
teacher
and so they did that. Well,
one of the boys- and I renamed him in the book, for I think good reason
What one of the boys drove the other three to make
and they did their little project.
And they were on the way back, and there was another group of students from CASS City which is
well it would be, let's see to the ne of Karo. Hey
and they they too. It been involved in this construction project and they were there and they, of course they were in another car. Well, is
it happened the boys kind of
the the terrible left I have the cash,
city boys, but the CASS City boys caught up with
some and pulls along size and kind of challenged him to a drag race and that commenced?
and and a high rate of speed, and
eventually MIKE Clark is the driver of the car with the cowboys,
he sees an approaching car on coming car and he tries to kind of break and
Anne get control the car 'cause you're going so fast, and it's Annie's kids,
end of the shoulder and and the car, then he loses control, it crosses the center and and
hits the oncoming car it wasn't a total head on. It was more or less one
item one guarding the what the side of the other, the woman
the car, older woman, was injured, the driver MIKE Clark was killed. He he died.
The boys were all thrown out of the car and and he he died it right then, and there Melvin
suffered a broken collarbone and some other
injuries. And
One of the other boys had to get broken leg.
Melvin and I
talk to many many of his friends in informing this impression. They said that he took my
death really hard
that he even went as far in some conversations to say that he wished it had been him. Instead of MIKE
whatever reason.
LR the people
I talked to his classmates
to uh each and everyone said that Melvin's personality seemed to change dramatically after that accident
and I did mention the Heather Kate's again. A pseudonym
it and she injected a bizarre dimension into it, claiming that the
young fellow who was killed in the accident was not not what he seems to be and the
This notion was rejected by anybody and everybody. So I I'm
Wasn't sure where that was going, but it in as much as Heather Cates.
As a high schooler practice witchcraft. Here we go again.
And Heather has an experience later on that we may get into that really justifies our place in the story.
Mel Melvin Garza comes from
big family and
his sister. We, you would already men.
Nora, had introduced Robin to Melvin.
So tell us a little bit more about the Garza family.
Mothers, Clara so tell
little bit more about the family and and how close Nora and Melvin are in age.
Oh yeah, she was, she had just turned off. She had just turned seventeen
and that's significant, and I I don't know how much
legal. My new sure you want to get into here, but
Nora had just turned seventeen when, when Robin
disappeared and I guess the belief was
Melvin broke into the House where Robin was after Robin graduated from high school. She took a job
is a live in babysitter and
after she broke up with Melvin a breakup that he,
violently opposed
he broke in and beat her up and from
from that point on. That was a little more than I think than two weeks from the time the she disappeared, the
fam, the guards of family there's nine children of
Alvin was the second eldest
his older brother, Augustine in
his older brother Augustine was in charge of the family while
while the parents were in South Texas, visiting relatives at the time that Robin disappeared
Nora is, as I said, she had
turn seventeen and there
there's actually
possibility that that Robin that Robin's disappearance or
all all. As we learned her murder
have occured before Nora turn. Seventeen
and that would have been significant in terms of the juvenile court jurisdiction and
the fact that she might not have been incarcerated, which
and we'll get into that of the fam.
Bill call bill. It was a self
a man he and Clara
started a house. I think it was back in the festivities and then one of these deals where they dug a basement and and kind of a cement block.
Construction in and resided in that and build up the house as they build
The family and
it's a good family and
and Bill
Clara are, are good people and and
Claire, the World of Robin and was completely crashed when
the reality of her disappearance came to the floor.
Bill and and Melvin
or kind of they have some characteristics in common, and I think that is
is Melvin became an adolescent, typically father and son didn't know
see I die, and but bill was a tip.
Goal mexican american patriarch.
And and ruled the roost and
kept order in with the family that large you pretty much need
strolling figure and you're going to be consigned
do eternal keep chaos. They were good people. I got
meet them and spend time with them. When we visited Melvin and Southern Maine,
in prison, which is a long, long drive, and so I was with them
for many many hours and got to learn a lot about
family and about them,
Now you talk about Bill and Millie: let's go back just a little bit, because this is very important. Of course
Melvin Garza as a charming guy, five foot, ten kind
well built. One hundred and sixty pounds
all accounts. You know pretty sociable guy
nothing so early, weird or creepy about this guy
but at some point this relation
chips hours, and
bill and Millie really
wanted Robin to stop seeing Melvin
yeah so there was that dynamic going on there, so an so
said. You also point
couple instances like
where there was a Cheryl and Robin Share to die
together and
one day that tire is missing. So it just
maybe you could tell us a little bit about that story which
probably indicates quite a bit about Melvin Garza, yes, and
and I'm glad you brought that up, because if
if we are able to get into some of these other things. You'll see a pattern, but Melvin was
Melvin was very, I don't know the exact perfect word to describe it, but he he
kept track of people that he knew and he eavesdropped, and he,
often times he would be. It's
where he could overhear conversations
even tried once to rewire a phone, so he could, he could tap into.
And I think that adventure faltered but
open it when Robin and Cheryl, as I said, they became almost like real sisters and she
Cheryl had a diary
and she invited Robin.
To share it so
that they would both make entries in the diary and
among the entries would be their interest in boys and boys,
they dated in one thing and another things that
you would not necessarily want a current boyfriend to be reading
and Melvin was was.
Rest of it in the way that it is characterized in the book were
Cheryl and Robin came home from school one day and Cheryl's parents were working and
Melvin had invited himself into the house and
Is there waiting for them? So
It was clear that he was willing to enter the house when no one was there so
He became the prime suspect
when the diary disappeared
and ultimately the diary was returned. It was mailed
mailed back in if it in a package to
to the rural mailbox without
explanation or return address an he.
Not admit that it was he him that that had the diary but
a pretty well believe that that was the case and the
this was this was Melvins MO and
later on and there's an incident that might be instructive. If we can get to it that dealt with the the the key witness that really broke a murder case and and how Melvin was
tabs on him, so go ahead,
Oh sorry, the
The other thing was that that the show is controlling nature in
diary the
I'd probably talked about the other boys that they had met, but also about
smoking and drinking
I thought it was ironic that
a Melvin, had a real issue with her smoking, cigarettes and drinking alcohol. Yeah
send end
I've always wondered if that
was more just uh.
Vehicle for
is control of her. I I don't think that he
he did not smoke to my knowledge
although
I know there was a key occasion of marijuana use which I suspect was involved. Smoking.
And that I won't get into that now, but it
In his father, his father had probably it was a smoke
and then had a it. I think a lawn disease- and I I'm I'm my memory is not perfect on that, but but
Bill quit smoking and would not let anyone smoke. It is in his
If they were riding with him in his car, so I don't know,
Oh, is that kind that trait passed off to Melvin or not? I know
Melvin did drink and
I'm more inclined than anything to believe that
that was just one of the areas where he wanted to exert control over her
and send made email
deal out of. That is you realize when you read the the conversation
yeah with her mother
Now he has.
Their relationship deteriorates. They go back,
and forth like many young people like many people in love, they go back and forth. I'm going to break up with you, but then they're back together again
but there is an incident where she is assaulted.
This is very important to the story.
So tell us about the assaults and who witnessed it and
tell us a little bit about that assault
Well, the
This was, of course they had broken up, and I think she had pretty well duh
I did that it was. It was going to be over her,
close friend Chris Chris
me that she thought it
at least one of the times that Robin went back
with Melvin was more out of fear. Then
really wanting to.
Weekend all the relationship.
What happened is it? She was alone with the with the little boy that she was caring for two year old and
the go.
The boy's mother was at work and so
He was alone in the house. It was during the day it was during the day,
and he
came to the house and wanted to talk to her. She didn't want to talk to him. She refused so here
move. The screen off the window
an open window and climbed in the window, and
he beat her up and- and he
we're Talkin cysts and where
talking bruises and
More
and can blue and something that you
it just explain away, but she did she. She was quite upset by it and I think,
I think that I know that after that,
she told her friend Chris that she she thought that he was that he was capable of killing her and
and she was fearful that he would.
So
what happened? Is she tried to keep the beating from her mother but eventually her mother,
her mother?
write it out of and they went to the police and
reported the assault and that gave rise.
To the phone cover the intercepted phone conversation, I don't if you want to get into that and we can, but
sure, let's, let's get into that phone call yeah. So
I had gone to the police, and I I think it's Cigna
We can hear a couple. Things are significant about this. The domestic violence
enforcement of laws against domestic violence have have changed an.
They've been strengthened in recent decades, but this was
one thousand eight hundred and seventy six
and is it typically a prosecutor would would say
well that they would they be coming
with the with the kiss and make up period
and a lot of women wives girlfriends
initially when when they were subject to domestic violence, they would want to prosecute, then they
change their mind and, of course, by now, there's taxpayer money spent in time wasted, and so the the practice at that time was too
to allow about a two week.
Rock period or whatever our our of to see. If, if the heat of passion to prosecute
It was still there so
They wouldn't waste the prosecutors time. That's quite significant Becaus, because
Robin disappeared. The night
before she was to
return to the prosecutor's office and go through
with an assault and battery charge? Now,
the telephone call the telephone call was
damage control,
on Melvins part
So now he's he's. He,
he's beaten Robin and her mothers found out about it. She seen the bruises and she's
angry and and she prevails on Robin to prosecute.
Then Melvin MRS
Adams comes to Karol with fellow
she was working for his little girls,
and they take route
into the county, fair and at that time, Melvin,
roaches them he's there and somehow New
that they were there. I figured it out and he approaches them. Ann wants to come
talk to Robin and
you know, I believe that he could see that he might be in a in trouble and maybe he could-
talk his way out of it. Well, MRS,
Adams would have no part of that and and Robin kind of
stand behind her and she and she
announced him and told him to
you know, leave them alone. So, the next day, our
Melvin called her. She
is living in Bay City. Working with this for this gentleman and caring for his his
little girls and she was taking
sales calls he was a trap.
Bling salesman and she would take sales calls and she would tape record them to
ensure absolute accuracy, and so she
How to tape a tape recorder hooked up to the phone?
and when Melvin Calder Her, and he was
I try to justify
he is having beaten her daughter. She take
the whole conversation unbeknownst to him
and there were some the card- incidentally eminent among which were a little plug in here. My.
Website dick dot net,
website
has a link to the
the entire conversation and it's kind of kind of scary, because he
He makes a lot of veiled threats during this
the phone conversation that he
doesn't know. What's going to happen to Robin then he's afraid something uh
happened to her and he's
trying to encourage MRS Adams to take her back to to Bay City, so that
that link is on there.
As well as a police in
cation of Melvin in the first, the investigation was two phases, and this was the first
says. There's a recording of that and also uh
recording of I mentioned a key witness who is TIM, Thomas, who was a friend of Nora's and was
when she confessed to I confessed her role in them crime and it's it's recording
TIM Thomas is testimony of the preliminary hearing where the Norris
he tries to throw him off but fails miserably. It's quite dramatic, at least in my view,
so
there you have the phone call
The recorded phone call, which I talked,
The jurors will get I'm getting ahead of the story anyway, yeah the phone,
Paul, was critical. A piece of
but it's leave it at that for now: okay, let's
let's, not jump ahead here and let's he's got she's.
Moving around a series of safe houses. That's how much he fears this guy and her fam
only fears this guide, other people of intervene, neighbors who have seen-
are are concerned for her, so
but there's a letter that she receives going
into Canada Letter and we won't get into what
happens later? But let's just talk about the letter itself. What is it contained?
when did she receive it tell
ok. She I think she receive,
the letter. I think it was the Friday before the the
the Sunday night that she disappeared,
it was going to get. It became labeled for investigative purposes that going to Canada, letter b
As in the letter, Melvin
said that he was going to go to uh.
Community and forgive me, but I'm I'm
not remembering it's an end here. It's a small town that I bought it. It is gave me of the moment, but it any rate it was. It
it was a long ways away. I mean it would be. I think it was five hundred miles or something
thing where it would be a really long drive and if you,
going to go there on a weekend. You
would
It would take the whole weekend and then some s so the
Obviously he did not go and a baby on
interpretations of that. But the
Essentially, the letter was.
Melvin sound like a wet puppy, I mean,
he was basically
going here, how much he loved her and how
broken hearted. He was and
how they would never be. Anyone like her in his life
and that he would
he would go to this quaint little village.
Age in Ontario and spa.
Some time there and try to work work through his his grief at having
lauste the love of his life and it was
very long letter and it I think,
again I'm I'm tending to jump ahead
we get into the if we get
into the police interrogation. But I'm
mention. This is
available on the website, it's quite
diametrically opposed to what the contents of that letter were.
Okay, now the letter,
makes her and her friends briefly and
yeah, we won't jump ahead. How she knows this, but
what she does is, while she's babysitting this two year old
is that she has
this letter from
David Garza who is Ben,
terrorizing her for quite awhile. Now
so with that she believes that okay,
She believes the essence of the letter in that he is going to be gone for this weekend into crossing the canadian border into Ontario. So
have the weekend to herself and that's
what she thinks and what other people think yeah. Her friends said that
she dropped her guard that that should that
he dropped her guard and
that she was a less of
vigilant and not looking over her shoulder as much as she had been,
so and of course,.
Again, I were jumping ahead, but it certain people who will be
disgusting later in
that may have been a ploy
Melvin always said that that he
Between the time he wrote the letter and
made the decision not to go to know this. Is him talking not to make the trip to Canada?
that he found out. He was going to have a job that would start
on my early Monday morning,
which would have made the trip impractical because
have been hard to get back on time for the job. Now that's
you can argue that different ways, but that was that was the story, but but she
did think initially.
And then there was an observation that you're aware of it, but she did think
initially the heat
probably meant
going to Canada would be gone in that she wouldn't have to be as concerned about
something that he might be doing if he had. He remained in the area.
They'll. Tell us about
the incident itself we we-
we will probably not going to be able to cover this entire book, because we've covered this with
amount of care here so far, but tell us how
she is discovered. Robbins disappearance is discovered and who they find in the home and what evidence, if any they find at this.
What would find later to be a crime scene?
tell us about the incident self who
Where is Robin First has disappeared. Ok, the first does not disappear,
Some of the contents did ah okay, she's she's babysitting, and
The the the young woman has worked to shift that
around midnight,
and so,
Marlene, it
Marlene Davis was the
It was the mother of the of the little boy and she's working a shift that ends around midnight.
So she comes home and she
the the house, is locked
and she was surprised because, typically when she,
I would come home from the shift Robin
would be right there and
he's let in so. This surprised her
so she came into the house, and
there was laundry that
Robin had been folding laundry when she left to the worker shift when Marlene Lot and the the the right, the laundry, the
the job was not completed, which
immediately caused her to be concerned.
Because that wasn't like Robin Rabbit
would finish the job in the laundry would be put away and it wouldn't be there. So,
it's going on here and then the perch purse.
Just laying there with part of the can't.
It's kind of
spelling out of it. So my
clean panics initially because she thinks well
Robinson, not there. So
Little Billy must. Now.
Be there either,
and so she calls her friend Joan
and.
Kind of the family starts
pulling together for where Robin
in the meantime after
darling talks to her
Joan Joan. Sayers is the name
and the then there's a relationship there. Jones husband is, I believe, a cousin of Marlene said.
At any rate, there's a relationship for me,
a family relationship there.
So then.
Marlene goes into the, it will Billy's room and he in fact is there, but
there are some things that don't jibe, because he's he's in a diaper the diapers dry, but his pillow
is, is kind of wet.
I've been crying, and
He has no no t shirt
Robin without even in the heat, and they had no air conditioning, and it was extremely hot in
about August.
Marlene, recognized that something
it was a miss
I mean the laundry is not finished and and and
abilities crying himself to sleep,
apparently, and he
doesn't have a t shirt, but he normally does something's something's wrong here
and so of course they they eventually commence and kind of a family,
group search which turns up nothing and and
actually they have to Contact Robin's, mother and the disappearance begins to play itself out with the police involved
the police aren't initially interested, but the family
definitely knows that she's gone, that she wouldn't have just walked away, that you didn't run away to. California,
Marlene
close, the Garza home
around
midnight, or so
looking for or or tell
at the time that she calls and she
speaks to Nora and what does Norris say, uh
it is. I recall it
and it's been awhile. Since I looked at that deal with specific
Time frames, I think it was around midnight
and
it might have been hi. I'm trying to think that it seems to me. There were two calls. John may have
Joan Sayers may have made a call and-
and then I I think, maybe Marley, I'm I'm not sure,
exactly sure. I think there were two calls and- and I
Marlene made made one of them and
Nora answered at least
one of the calls and said that Melvin was us. I think she said he was sleeping.
And we wouldn't want to come
the phone or something to that effect, but, of course,
login, when I don't want to get ahead of the story, but she said
Nor had said that she did
Melvin was sleeping, and what was what was odd in later in retrospect, was that she had said that.
That he had been sleeping since one thousand and thirty right,
yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that yeah! Yes, because it's that
sounded like a
the
information not asked for sure
and in other words
it sounded like the
building of an alibi and it
and that was Joan, Joan, Joan
that was Joan Sayers call and she
she found that odd it
at the time. You know. Why is she telling me you know
giving me times. You know you see there sleeping or he's not or he's either there or he's not, but
what value is it to me to know that he's been home for
an hour and a half or so I didn't ask that so that was a key point is, and
The time frames, of course, again, jumping ahead, become very
very significant in this investigation and beyond
yes, the other call that you mentioned was, I think you used to talk about Karen good role, called at four, am and spoke personally with Melvin our
yeah and yes,
that's right. He said that carry that Karen girl called me in the middle of the night, and you know he was sleeping. Then he was going to have to get up early and you know he kind of passed that off as.
Annoying or something to that effect. But.
Now. The next day, Melvin Melvin comes and speaks to Vera, and
Vera's is boyfriend
that time, significant other Bob Cronkite
who's, interesting character too, because how involved he gets in this case,
all right away as well. So
tell us about that. Altercation in what Melvin did say in what Vera said. What tell us about that dynamic the next day.
Yeah well. Well, he K.
He he came to the house and in this again you know he his
Behavior is is always kind of patterned. You know
we went to the fair to try to damage,
control the beating. Then he may
The phone call for the same reason now he's a her.
Heard missing, because that caring girl called at four o'clock in the morning
and now he's going to be.
The good Guy and he's
to come to the house and
tell everybody, you know your you and find out where Robin is and just
that you know he doesn't know anything about anything and in the car,
he met with sharp bob
you from from Vera and Bob and
They weren't having any of him not knowing anything, and he was
Then the village they some the village officer- and I
I think that the village
officer took Melvin
babies of the state, police, post and brief
ITALY and then brought him back as he was he was working then then he was on his lunch hour, so
I mean he knew that that that they
we're going to accuse him and
he is already started his defense, that he knew nothing and was just earnest enough to show up in pine
now what was going on.
What was his official story initially in terms of having seen Robin that night.
Question which was the Sunday night. Why don't why it when the
Please talk to him. Initially, he lied and said that he had not seen her that night.
At all- and then
During the interrogation, the
and it's on the website
He corrects that, and he says,
the star, around nine hundred and thirty or so, and and of course he it's
kind of a bizarre
explanation, because he claims that he parked his car some blocks away and G
I over there. So the
his car wouldn't be there,
because he knew that he was
persona non grata with the family after the beating and everything, and so he
didn't want his car being seen there, which again
my my thought on. That is that he was fearful.
That somebody might have seen something and
he thought he better, not stick to the store.
Did he hadn't been there at all right now, the
What was his demeanor, not his demeanor, but how cooperative was he with police.
In this investigation initially- and then I want to ask this other question too- is that
Explain and you do explain this in your book.
Is that even though a lie detector test is inadmissible, at trial
but it, but it is still a valuable tool used by police. So again tell us a little bit about how
the integral
The lie detector test was in this investigation into this case and story. Well, it was. There were two that there were.
There were two,
Polygraph examinations and
the first one,
the operator had a feeling that Melvin New ways to
make sure that the the
The findings would be
records show the by,
bodily movements and
weaving patterns and different things, so it, but
but he was all in for her.
Submitting to the polygraph and in fact submitted to the same.
Polygraph and that
was the one where they, where the deception which Euro then and
I will jump ahead here because it's so closely relevant his sister.
Tentatively agreed to a polygraph and then balked
and and would not submit to it, because
in in here, was a mistake on her part, certainly that
she didn't want to discuss events between the hours of like
one thousand pm and midnight on the. So
CALL Dan question
so another words. Well, if we're not going to talk about the time when we think we
crime. What good is this test, so
I was telling that was telling
now tell us about in September again, there's
about two weeks later Melvin,
close the state police. With a letter he says he purports, is
from Robin and postmarked. St
Joseph Missouri so tell us about this letter in the contents
well uh the letter and, of course, this
Joseph Missouri Aspect of it remains a mystery in
It was a clever
diversion whoever arranged that I have some there
but nothing. I could really talk to
At any rate, the letter was that wrong
even ran away and then
she ran away because
she was broken hearted over the failure of their relationship, which, of course,
doesn't make a lot of sense because her friends,
and the letter that he wrote clear
They point out that it was
It wasn't her
broken hearted this and it wasn't her
his decision to break up it was hers. So
none of this made any sense. But the fact
it was mailed from Saint Joseph. If you were a
going to California that might
not be the most direct route, but at least it would comport with some sense of
here to there and it it
falls in between so
and, of course, will. The letter gave the police and forensics people that
because it was hard to it- was hard to
to tie the writing.
To him or anyone that might have been
inclined to assist him.
Yeah the letter is the letter
is in the e book. The three page letter is is in there, so it could be read by anyone who would be interested in that.
So this case
it's cold Marvin
Barbie Melvin seems to cooperate. They find nothing in his vehicle, really substantial at that time. We're not talking about.
Its dna guard talking
dna really at all being a factor
but he seems cooperative. The case goes cold, and then you introduce a central figure in here. A detective
Dan Miller, who
who was impressed one day about seeing an officer. Do something make an arrest with a
Thompson Submachine Gun and he won.
To become a detective, despite his
yeah yeah, a small boy,
he's a small boy in his family takes a trip to.
They lived in in all, which is a
small town in the
from thumb area in here, county, the same company
The trial was in in his family. Takes it
up to Jackson. It happened that there was, I believe, either an escape.
Or a riot or something that
probably an, and so the
the police had
road blocks and
Merry Christmas dances,
a small boy, and here's us this officer with this.
Sub machine gun and, and it just kind of
He thought it was kind of neat and
small boys perception and that that
so the things that he said later in life
moved him in the direction of of person
A career in law enforcement
he's this he's a novice, and yet they give him this cold case and he
you know attaches himself to this,
and the first thing that he does is he reviews all of the
Sergeant Walters,
investigation, but really what he has is not very much evidence at all. Except a couple cassette.
Tapes of the phone calls and the letters so tell us,
hello, Dan Miller and
why he, this case gets a cry into. You know,
it's a cry into him, and he gets so dedicated and involved,
this case well,
it was, I mean you have to know Dan
he's a very interesting guy he's very
focused. He
The yeah collect-
civil war, memorabilia and
quite an authority on
civil war battles and different divisions of the
Union Army and confederate and so on and so forth.
He that Dan is, is smart and and he's cagey he he doesn't
are you more than he wants to and he
the advantage he had over MELT, Walner an and
tried everything and and
one point is in in the book: he almost it
look like he almost was going to succeed, but
at any rate then used
some unconventional approaches and he
He spread himself out and made himself known to people. The younger
he was younger than milk walner, so that he was able, from a generational perspective too,
relate more to the to the young people that you know
were parties to this whole,
situation, and he the fact that he
made himself known and and made himself known to Sean
Zimmerman who had was
post. Robin girl
friend of Melvin's and she
a delivered
this child, a daughter of
and she
she became a link to our
person in Karo another young couple. Actually in Karo who we're were friends with TIM Thomas who lived down
Near Flint but visited Carol,
periodically and had a friendship with Nora. So so that's the fact that
damn is aggressive as he was and he left no stone unturned and all this time he's also looking for the body and
to no avail, but
so in in that looking for the body and looking for a prosecutor n, I don't know if we'll
have time to get into this. But it's interesting. The
The local prosecutor wouldn't touch the case in the
reason why an how things played out
subsequently made him
look pretty smart but anyway, but
there was an excellent investigator and he was
very careful and
and low key and he once
once he got wind of TIM Thomas.
Ultimately in is you're aware he was able to arrange a meeting with TIM
and Nora and, of course,
I don't know if we've, if we've come
for that. Yet but nor
confessed. Her role in the crime to TIM
to unburden herself, an that
kind of what broke
case. Ultimately,.
It was interesting, let's, let's fixate on that, a little bit, because this is again the most crucial ask
Effect of the story in the end,
is TIM, Thomas and Nora. And this
first confession. Now you do.
You talk about the conversation did elicits this confession, she's mad at him. He laughs at her and then she says some
details so tell us about that.
Actual conversation, because it's interesting how this all comes about
okay, what she was
but was
she was in.
My community College in Flint
become a dental assistant.
And I I think it would be typical.
Going from zero to that. You hear me that would be not out of the way at all to go through Davison, which
where TIM lived and
really liked him and
I
I don't think that TIM ever
have a strong romantic interest in her, but I think they they
dated and they had fun together and
as I recall, she called him and said that,
should be coming through Davison and she.
Like they have lunch with him, and so they
Matt, and they have lunch and Nora.
Normally is outgoing and fun, and she was subdued
and just
kind of in troubled.
State of mine. That was immediately obvious to to TIM and so
he's asking her. What was wrong and
he was kind of needling or a little bit and eventually you know she said something to the effect of why
What would you say if I told you I was involved in a murder and
and he didn't he didn't believe her. He didn't believe her at the time, but then
and I'm getting ahead a little bit but his
kids in Karo
they got wind of this and they wanted it was Kim
hurting right right, right, right, regular, wanted
she was married to one of TIM's real good buddies.
And she wanted to get TIM to meet with Dan,
Dan Miller and TIM.
Wasn't real interested until she
Kim prevailed on him and
It said hey, you know this was not
some rumored situation
this young woman disappeared, and
Everyone believes that she was murdered and,
so then it reluctantly she arranged a meeting with Dan at her house with her
your husband there and, and
TIM there and and they they got together.
That way, so that's that's
The continuum continue
the luncheon at the lunch date in Davison,
and now that eventually played out and and kind of made things come together.
It's very interesting how
He uses an employee's Dan Miller employees, the same kinds of techniques that
Melvin garb Gar would use manipulating using inside information against another person taking one bit of information again and
using it and revealing it to the other person to create a sort of chaos and see what comes of it
so he was. It was great at manipulating these various magical
eventually it. They are always that you said in a
pendency who see, who yells kind of one way, that and of you're talking about the two and I'm going to
try to try to remember the names there's so many,
Tanya gosh. I hope on I. I disagree because I did use the the real names
Let's talk about, let's look as we don't have much time Richard. Let's talk about more about the
Aspect of
Dan Miller, breathing down on these people, necks with eventually him a
going to TIM Thomas is you know
better nature, his real nature to be.
Able to cooperate and and in
focused Dan Miller, focus on Nora being this week, link and the key
eight to solving this case, but
like. You say with nobody. They mean
The rarity of having a prosecution for murder with nobody is very, very rare occurrence. Tan prosecutors are reluctant to do to go
hadn't prosecutions like this so tell
about the unique situation that was in Michigan. At that time you need to
states that allowed for the
Secu Shin and how that prosecution came
be. It was again some manipulation. It was some influence in the
to be able to get this done.
Well well, and I can back up just for a second, because I I hate to be time
tangible, zeros and Angie Tories were the two gals and date Dan
Angie knew something
about a procedure that Nora had that was very personal and leave it at that
and the
Dan learned that from Angie and then used it to unsettle Tanja in a in an attempt to create pressure.
And stress on Nora, because
thought. You was probably Nora's best friend in and maybe
more so than Angie ok,
right. You know you wanted me to
you want me to get into how the price
Sucu Shun developed.
Well how they, how they were able. I mean it's it to me was very unique.
Situation, I saw that. Did you when you have a grand jury to have just
one person
be a grand juror, so that situation is unique. Ok,
it well it it's close to unique there. Maybe one other state them in
one other state that has a one man grand jury, and there was.
Uh. The one man grand jury was design,
to target Nora and to get her.
To give up her brother and it didn't work aw and
as it turned out the prosecutor, who was in
assistant attorney general's in.
As I earlier mentioned, the local prosecutor didn't want to didn't,
I want to give her immunity and they felt that was the only way they were going to get anywhere so
Rumors is a very good prosecutor and left
attorney general and went to work in Jackson County as a chief insistent prosecutors very
skills and he, but he
he couldn't get authorization to take the case until the one of
state police higher ups got to the attorney general and put pressure on them. So.
Anyway, the result of the Tandja and Angie
situation way, Dan did get a Nora,
before the county prosecutor, but he would not give her immunity and less
she told him her role and
she wouldn't
so that ended, that is,
so the the once
Once she went before the judge
this is, this is part of the
and for the title of the book
Laura was given a
It's actually immunity to testify
after she stonewalled and in and exercise their fifth amendment rights to not testify. So at that point she
again she stonewalled, even though she had immunity, she
stonewalled and the judge obviously knew she was lying, but
the judge, made an error and that was-
that he was willing to issue a warrant for her arrest. In spite of the fact,
she'd been given total immunity and and that
that was something that I discovered in my research that had never ever come out, and
as a result, they were able to arrest her now
for attorney had been on the ball. He was now
the attorney that was representing her at the one man grand jury, but who
represented or subsequently
If you did on the ball and read the transcript of the grand jury, he would have known that she was immunized.
You could got around the jail, but I think he kind of took away.
Shortcut version- and he missed that.
So they were able to keep her in jail and, of course, that
creates an enormous pressure over time and that
that led her to the point where she took the
to the area where the body been buried right.
So am I getting too far off course, or is that kind of where you wanted to well?
You know that's where we were going, but we skipped over was the an again. We only have about ten minutes. So what I wanted to talk about was one of the more dramatic things that
happens at this trial and what we've.
Almost the audience almost forgets an almost as a reader. We forget about the young boy that
been was babysitting. That evening the was traumatized
now is a much older boy and he
that this grand jury so
I thought this was one of the most profound things of your book aspects of your book,
Tell us about
Billy, Junior, Billy, Timko and
okay not understand Billy Billy is not the little Billy that what that Robin was babysitting sitting.
It was part of the Timko family and
he was with her,
the night that he
only Tempco was with Robin the week. We
again that she disappeared. He was with her. I think it was the night before
and he was in the house with her and they
He testified that
We saw Melvins car driving by the house, therefore he's not in
Ontario Bracebridge by
so it was the name of the young right talent into Ontario, so
it and Billy gives the
they not only did they seem elements
or but then they went outside the house. They thought they say.
Prowler and
Robin thought that Robert actually said they were. It is a little strange.
To describe this urgent, a separate garage and the garage door
these were open and a more
all things in this kind of rare for garages in my experience they
was a window on the back wall, though,
usually on the sides and so Robin
what that she saw Melvin looking through the back window of
the garage
and then and Billy.
Timco was not able to say that he
saw that, but
He did know that someone had was
Maclaren it run off, so
end and in court there was
concerted effort by the prosecutor to get Billy to testify that she had said it's Melvin but anyway,
so. I have exactly what you wanted, but Billy
incidentally, and we haven't touched on near the weirdness in this story. But
Kini Garza our
in the older brother was in charge of the
family, when
parents were away and Robin disappeared. Teeny
died on the 23rd of February, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three Billy.
Core junior died
on the 23rd of February in nineteen. Ninety four,
A year apart and that the the book is full of
bizarre coincidences that just seemed to to me it's hard to judge
A is, as you may want to be it's.
Who sings office just happening.
I cover that. Well enough for you or.
I think so uh the the other thing is that, through
the dog get effort of Dan Miller and which you again for in such a hurry.
Quick way in this in this book and his
I'll get dedication to this case,
And finally, we have the conviction
many years later of a
when Garza, for this first degree, murder
what was the sentence for how it? How do the courts dispose of with Nora Garza?
okay, well, that was that was
another complicated mess, but they the deal
the deal that caused her to be willing to take them to the area, and then she did not by the way actual
find the burial site, but
is you know, and we all know
A wooded area will change it.
Characteristic significantly over a period of eight years. So it's it's under.
Mandible that you might not be able to walk right to the spot where they at where they had buried the body. But that was the deal
the deal was to give her a break if she,
you would if she would take them to the area or take them to the body, but they they let her off with at least getting
to the area and ultimately, and I
going and all the details, but ultimately
they found the body and, and so there
or she was entitled of- some consideration, but
again there is a judge and rich,
going to block was I've known, residency was thirteen rich
Well, you know was bound by the by the
the law, to make certain dimming
ends of her in exchange for accepting her plea.
So they they got into a little bit of a.
Of a run around there.
She bought for a while but uh
actually she came around and and told the judge judge what he wanted to know
my personal opinion, and I is that she was
not totally truthful, but that
Only she and her brother woods
really be the ones to know where she wasn't being truthful in terms of her participation in the actual disappearance and and murder.
What's again, one of the most profound moments in your book and will use this as to wrap up in this next couple minutes is the
they push her on the stand to say that when
Melvin arrives.
Robin is in the trunk. He she helps him buried the body, but they.
Ask her this question that she does not want to answer, and that is was the grave pre dug? Yes it it it it
and Mark Bloomer had gone to extraordinary lengths. He had
actually brought an archaeologist back to the area and had him re excavate
life sized
whole. That would be the
same dimensions as the one for
which they recovered the body. So the
determine how long it would take to not
only dig the hole, but too
if it had been three dog to
Bury the body and be visit
bowl in the Karo area,
soon enough to kind of begin to form
the basis of an alibi, and it is pretty improved. He was very
gratified that she was willing to finally give that up, because he had drag this poor guy hi. It's a hundred over a hundred miles in a put in the work Bigham
this also, but
bill over the archaeologist, a tremendous guy in a fabulous physical condition. It didn't
really bother him that he had to dig another woman
If I could mention one thing, uh Dan, that I think readers would find very interesting after Melbourne
convicted. Tim Thomas had a series of accidents. They were on
characteristic, I'm in terms of Bigg Husky Guy
a hunter fisherman. You know he's he's a
a man's man and it wasn't like him do it. He cut himself with a chain saw on the if he for that fell through a group glass that
garage window and nearly
what the deaf, and so he
what's happening here I mean I all of a sudden, I'm having
all these injuries, TIM was
superintendent of a parts plant in Flint. One of his workers was a mexican, and he was very close to this this.
And the fellow said. I don't think this is just happening.
I want you to meet someone and he took TIM
to this medium.
And the medium said that TIM Thomas was a victim of black magic that was perpetrated by
the killers. Paternal grandmother
and her name was not
could be bad Olivera's and she died in
and I believe, oh, let me think I think.
Was seven or eight living in South Texas. She had lived for years and care
and she was known to practice.
Is call brewery which is spanish for black magic
she was a full blooded, aztec indian. She was not mexican but her husband or her first husband, who would be Melvin's fathers
Father had died, young and she'd remarried, so
at any rate,
was that aspect, and I knew that
How much was kind of up
guy. That would not be telling me these things, fantasize
sing anything. These things really happened, the way described them and whether or not the medium was dead on
accurate I'll, never know, but that's what she said
yeah. Well I mean this book. We we just really touched on some.
The drama, but
and really didn't go into the really determined, incredibly determined effort by Dan Miller and
The police to be able and prosecutors to be able to finally get this Melvin Garza. We
it seemed that everybody knew he was guilty from day one to finally br
the justice and and
also justice for Robin.
To find out really the truth of what actually happened
at night in August, one thousand nine hundred and seventy six for those that
might want to contact you. Could you give your website one more time? Please Richard yeah, it's Dick Carson d
I see K C, a r s, o n in lowercase dot net okay.
And all pictures of Melvin Picture
of Robin the links that where you can hear me
Evans, conversation with Robin's, mother and also his fully police in
irrigation, and you can hear TIM Thomas is very.
Exceptional
examination where the
Why are did everything uh
is power to confuse and an trip him up
and got nowhere
Yeah
so it
Is there anything else? I don't know what what our time frame is here, but I've was enjoyed. This is
very good- and I want I want to thank you very much Richard for coming on and talking about fruit of the poisonous tree. It's
a fascinating story, and- and we just touched on a little bit of the incredible aspects of the story so again fruit
of the poisonous tree want to thank you very much Richard and you have yourself a great afternoon. Ok,
Thank you so much Dan, it's been my pleasure. Thank you. Bye, bye, goodnight
The house of roll journeys far and wide to bring you exceptional quality, kitchen and bath fixtures in all of this, you'll see the details of your own story: the story of a life well, crafted welcome to the House of roll
loyalty is all about being there day in day out
Tripoli thanks you for being there with loyalty rewards like when you get savings on triple a auto insurance, just for being a triple a member, and when you switch to triple a auto insurance, you could save more based on how long you've been a triple a member and how long you've had your current insurance insurance. Not just insurance, learn more about triple a auto insurance and loyalty, rewards click now or visit Tripoli dot com, slash insurance
Transcript generated on 2019-11-05.