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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Mary Thompson was your average mother. In early 1990s, Eugene Oregon. He was a community organizer, an upstanding citizen. By day my night, she was gang mom living

the ultimate double life Thompson ran a gang of teenagers, including her own son who tear rise, the unsuspecting city with drugs and violence. When the fellow game Member name, Aaron Matura was suspected of snitching on Thompson Sunbow. She MER honestly put a hit on him, Fred Rosen's gang mom gives an in side look into the true story of a mother who would do anything even murder to protect their son. And keep her gang empire alive Boo, We're featuring this evening is Gang mom leave mother, whose gang secretly prayed on the city with my speci I guess journalist and author Fred rose and welcome back to programming. Thank you very much once again for appearing on this program. Fred Rosen well, Dan, and Japan Ski? It is always my pleasure to be with you, sir. Well, I would say

Thankfully, that is always my pleasure and again our audience a lot of sometimes freder, is been on very many times. You have often been controversial, so not without controversy for it. I won't disappoint in now. That's my personality, yeah, absolutely not with this gang mom. Let's, start with the open road. Tell us a little bit about this re issue and before we start Anything let's tell us take us back to how you came to be involved with this project and but first tell us about this reissue this from this open road publications. Sure open road media is the largest public. Sure of e books in I guess in North America, and they are

pushing a lot of my true crime books that I did previously for other publishers. That, quite frankly, went out of and- and so this is one of those books and what they do which is really cool. Is they re problem, but the HE books Dell for, like I don't know four ninety nine thousand five hundred and thirty nine. Something like that. So there really, I think, affordable and then, if a person wants a hard copy, they can buy a trade paperback with, sells for one thousand two hundred and ninety nine, and gives me an opportunity to to to take a look at. You know what I've done in the past and, at the same time date and it gives me perspective on stuff going forward, and so these guys are just tremendous to work with and, as I said, they have the largest publisher of of e books in North America and

they publish a lot of the extremely well known. Authors like, you know like Charles Dickens, you know stuff, like that, you know classic stuff and then contemporary stuff, like one of my favorite now who is William Goldman, who wrote the screenplay for Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid and is the tremendous a novelist and also, of course, Crime there, one of the few houses that really will publish true crime, which since the recession ban very few. That will so. It becomes very difficult when you're a fan to find stuff to read and there right out there doing it, and so it's it's you know I don't. I don't usually extol the virtues of a publisher, but these guys have been absolutely terrific yeah. I gotta agree with you to what I see the entire

repackaging of them and also their recognition of its. Not numbers it's or quantity. It's a matter of recognizing which of those true crime books really did really well back in the day and it's a deservedly need to be re released it just again, like you say, the recession really seemed to do damage it wasn't. Biggest genre per say, but it was thriving, but you wouldn't know knit now so these people that understand true crime. A lot more in fact understand it and recognize good, true crime, these People are are reissuing this stuff for the true crime reader. So it's good work. Yeah and you know I I again I mean you know they. Care I mean it's it's a weird one, because I have never dealt with the house with people clear as mud. Your will every you know not to see that other houses don't care, but these guys had made a commitment.

So this genre, I'm not the only only personal rights through cry. You know there are others, obviously, that that that works for them and their open. You know, I mean they're open to this stuff, can't Dan yeah, you know absolutely really good about it and uh, and I there's a lot about about the market and I've learned more about marketing and promotion of books, a year and a half I've worked with them. That is thirty years working with other houses because there open they work with the author and they're very friendly with the author and their smart. I don't know what else to say, ok and Jane Friedman. Who used to be the CEO of Harper Collins is their ceo. So

she's got a big background in this in it's. You know in publishing and and also another thing that I really enjoy. Is they employ people from all over? You know, I don't to tell you I mean, like I'm, not interested in talking to somebody who's just from New York, Daw I'm from New York. You know I want to talk to somebody who's from Thunder Bay. You know what I mean I You know that when you get to learn stuff well, I question that, but So, let's get back to let's, let's get back to how you game at this time to want to pick this. I mean you pick the most fantastic stories for your books, but tell us how you came to be interested in this. How you came to write this book gang mom. Well, what happened was it was in the late 1990s and I saw the story in a year in a newspaper, and I thought wow. That's pretty interesting.

And I at that time I was writing for the reader's digest and I propose that as a as a true crime story and I and and they weren't all that Well, why don't you do it? Well? The next thing you know, I'm on a plane to you too, to Eugene to do this to do this book and I've never been to uh. So it was like that was interesting to me because I just have thing than where I wanted to get to all fifty states, so they Who is another one? I could not go off and and I went there and I got you know I got really lucky Becaus set up the interviews in advanced and I got very friendly with Jim Massage, who is the detective on the case.

Right and we just hit it off and he was kind enough to open up literally his life. To me, I mean so we we had dinner together. He took me to his house. He just showed so much hospitality. There aren't I which I certainly was in used to coming from my New York and I'm being honest and and so he opened up to me- and I wrote this. I mean I wrote this article and then I just said you know this could be an interesting book. A nice basically spun it off, and I decided to do do it is a book and luckily it was bought by a publisher and I was able to do it and I read in the state to really develop all of the the the the themes and the character.

In the book, and it you know it with that mean what that mean was the fact, that I never heard of of of except for West Side story which is mentioned in the book. I wasn't familiar with gangs of core cation middle class, kids hi. It's that you know I I just you know I didn't. I didn't get it and and that's the thing that got me about the book was that be the I five Carter. The the the you got, people going up and down that Carter on that coast, just like you have people on there coast coming up and down what you call it. Is the interstate over here and so that allowed for the influence of gangs pacifically from LOS Angeles to come up there more? In the sense, almost the publicity

And then, of course, when Mary Thompson got involved that was it. You know she was able to sort of take from here and there and put all this stuff together and she winds up as this is this anti gang activist. And had it not been for this detective Jim Rashad, she got away with it She would've gotten away with murder: let's go back Fred to a very dramatic scene In Cleveland, oh in nineteen, seventy six mary- Thompson, but formerly Mary Fockler, is that a biker party now. Let's talk about that scene, but also it really is indicative and tells of a much bigger story. So tell that story about Mary, oclair she's, a pretty wild girl

she is willingly at. A biker party with Erdogan at a club house take away Fred she's, it yeah sure she's. It she's in a biker party And Mary had a thing where she wanted to be very popular and uh she wanted to be on the tonight show with Johnny Carson who was doing it in those days of course, And she wound up having sex with a number of these bikers. But then she turned around and said that she had been a essentially gang raped by them and what happens. Is the authorities then bring charges against these individual and it isn't until the trial that it becomes clear that she's at

actually doing this stuff willingly and she wants the attention and what gets so interesting is that her sister Judy testifies against her yes, and she says my sister just wants to be a. She wants to be on Johnny Carson Show, which is what people used to call it back in the day, though it was, the tonight show starring, Johnny Carson, just like it's. The tonight show starring Jimmy Fallon, etc, etc. Point being Mary was just into the attention, and that is indicative of her personality of what she wanted out of life. And I guess there are certain people who want to get fame in any way, shape or form, and they don't care who they are going to stay

clover or whatever- and I don't want people to misunderstand what I'm saying here, which is this, of course women are abused by and there have been many instances of gang rape and where the men are not prosecuted or not convicted. This is 110th of one percent of where some the of a woman making it up, and she get it for her own reasons, but it doesn't come together. JANET so much much later, when she winds up out in the pissing. Pick NW and then everybody start. The cops start pudding. Together and they realize what kind of an in individual they're dealing with. Yes, you include this, to show the character of Mary Fockler

and also this show that, with this, it's an amazing story. She's having sex with all these bikers and her dog gets in a fight with one of the biker dogs in the clubhouse. So she tries to break up fight of the dogs and then ends up half naked outside and then when she is cop, do contractors. Oh well, I was raped so thirty, two question. Five tidied she's got to leave town, so she of course, she's got to reinvent yourself if she knows what she's going to say about herself right, but here is quite a report based on this allegation and, like you say that they lose the case. So there's a good report that later Jim Michaud leads lead reads and his again very indicative of of character of the woman So Jim Shod read that with great interest much much later, so now, it's like you say: she's headed up Eugene Oregon and invented herself, tell us

how she becomes this, gang Activist and tell us about her son bowl. Well, what happens? Is she winds up? yeah in another town in Oregon at first and she wind up in this other town, where she becomes a snitch, a police informer. So she lives on her resume that she's, a police, investigate and she white and then she wanted going from that town and she's she's, going through different guys, you know, and and now she's about a different guy and she looks to Eugene and she has her son beau and she He then what happens is BO winds up getting interested in gangs and Mary. At this point ' name is now married Thompson. She winds up as

Somebody who start educating herself on gangs and she then promotes herself to the media as an anti gang activist and the local newspapers begin to call her gang mom. 'cause she becomes like a mom to these individuals, the kids that are and we're talking about white, lower middle class, middle class, kids, boys and girls who aspire to the gang lifestyle, and she winds up doing very interviews and so forth with media and as a result, it mushrooms the next thing. You know she she gets in tight with a couple of dudes at the at the Eugene Police Department

she's, giving like anti gang seminars in schools and so forth, and while this is happening, our son is going in an out of trouble, but at the same time she is forming very strong. I would say very strong roots within the community, so that nobody would suspect that you know she's a bad guy that girl. Nobody would suspect that, but she makes a couple of mistake along the way that come back and haunt. How does she have a husband, its oblivious, he's much older, but how can it that oblivious is this? She working the schedule has at work well the way that it it it it works is that the husband This was a situation where there were different men involved and she at that

point early on as an anti gang activist. The what she is showing to the world is huh sure her her credential as somebody who's against this sort of thing, and she pulls the wall over her husband's eyes and eventually she split up with the dude. So reason, like he's there all the time. You know what I mean: it's not like one of those. It's not like you know like deacon of death, where you know this guys a serial killer and his wife is unaware of it. Up, it you know, because she's sleeping with him all the time? It's that's not the case, because when she winds up because coming really popular and when she is actually doing some other things that will get to by that time. She's not involved

with with any man in particular, so it isn't like there was a major tip off or something like that plus important aspect here. Where is that she is a con woman of the first order she's the best I have ever seen best I've ever seen and at the same time she has a very, very close relationship with her thought. But she doesn't provide the kind of role model that you know that we hope parents would It's the other way around she's, not teaching this kid proper values. It's it's it's just completely the opposite and and and this will eventually lead to a lot of grief for a lot of people. Now you talk

about Mary being a consummate con woman Anna evidence of that she talks about again and since reinvents herself, so she comes up with this background about how she was involved in the Crips, which is a black gang, and you explain that the seventy four Hoover Crips she forms so tell us about the in tire story, the background and she's created it that she gives to these unsuspecting kids. Ok, what happens is she claims that she has some background with this famous gang from LOS Angelus, can you know it's funny? As I was I was reading this again, I was reminded that I used to live right near Hoover, in LOS Angeles. I went to USC's film school and it you're very famous gang, but, and she claims that she she would. She had a part in the gang and that she

There was a lot about the gang and she wrote. See what she's doing is she's conning these kids tonight, into believing that she is involved with this African Americans game dogs. You know I mean you know, you know the dates. These are kids, you could have sold on the Brooklyn Bridge for five bucks. They they were pretty damn, but also they were very ignorant and and they you know they were very sheltered in many ways and is it and what what every kid wants to belong? Every kid wants to be a part of something. Especially when they've had problems. So she was smart enough to prey on kids who had problems and who she could manipulate to do Her will.

And she not only does that with kids, there aren't related to where she does it, with both LEN who's who's, your son, and so she convinces them that and what she basically does is she's. A very good study thing she studies gang culture. She knows all about gay and colours gang Initiations and so forth and so on, and so she implements this system of acceptance in the community and she's doing this while she at night, while by day. And I don't think we're giving anything away here because it says on the cover it she's she's she's, acting as a gang actor, so you've got you've got two things going on. You've got to call on woman who is telling it

the public and the cops that she's an anti gang activist as well, as I might add, to parents, parents of these kids into you know into her confidence game, and then it night. She's got these kids that are showing up at our house, and here so they think like she's she's, she let man, you know she you know she's, like you know, I guess I just remembered back in the 30s. There was a I, woman who ran again. Our name was Ma Barker and exactly was a very famous outlaw and that's exactly how I would describe Mary Thompson, she now or she's really in outlook she's a throwback to that kind of a personality, and she also doesn't have any sort of conscience about what she's doing now. You know we cannot

thinking about whether she's, a sociopath or not. But the most important aspect here is it worked. I mean she had ourselves a gang doing she wanted and on people in Eugene, which is which is a Liberal College town and it's like the last place. You would expect stuff like this to happen. But she made the mistake of being within within Jim Shots, turf that detective and again without a Chod. I don't think we're having this conversation quite currently 'cause she's, the one who finally breaks it open and in true crime is, you know you gotta have You got to have somebody who is the detective per se, who does break it open, and

but you know, and that's the individual that we use the reader. We follow them, our emotions go toward them, and Jim was was happened to be the guy, and you know, and and not you know, but but anyway, so she was really able to manipulate these kids and again. I think that if if this was a situation where these would individuals were in the 20s, for example, I don't think wrecked again. I don't think that we're having this conversation is the fact that they will vulnerable and these kids, many of them were kids who had problems. You know they came from homes with problems. Then you know. You know, as you get a little bit more experience, you fine there's a lot of these people out there. You know it's sort of reminds means we're talking. I mean nothing will be here and thickens mind this

quite well and and and I'll you know in in that the play and the book it's based on. You know it's funny. I I even thought about that until just now, but she's, basically Fagan. That's what she did she say get. Now, let's talk about Aaron, richer and hello other act, I don't know how to pronounce your name. Is it Jane seed chancy by correct me on that one so Jeff, okay, JANET Janet Evans or I had the same problem when people start seems a little differently I go a little nutty and when I interviewed janis- I said: can you tell me how I missed something then I said: can you tell me which pronounced and she was very genocide? Tour as I was reading re reading, the book tonight

do to prep for what we were going to talk about, I said you know, I got a caller Becaus. We had a really good relationship and I really care about her and what happened here was that Aaron, I tour was part native American. And one of the tribes from the Pacific NW, and he was a good kid Aaron had gotten into a little bit of trouble, but nothing major and what happened was Mary Thompson approached Janice Itura about getting air and involved in her. Anti gang activities and Aaron was against this stuff. He was not. He didn't like kings and he was a kid with a lot in front of them and he was

very good. Looking boy, he was six feet four about two hundred and twenty terrific athlete smart kid in this cute who's going to. He was going to set the world on fire. He was going to do really well and what happened. Was he got involved with the anti gang activities, not knowing, of course, that he is literally gone into the spiders web with apologies to Peter Parker, and you got that one right. Yeah ok, ok and anyway, and what happens is uh. It won't point. Mary gets the bright idea that actually it's not bright, it's brilliant using Aaron Asbos protector because BO it keeps getting in trouble? So the idea is to use Erin as

is essentially his bodyguard. It's almost like the old fill, my bodyguard and what happens is he winds up going well. Aaron goes all over the place with bow in Eugene, so whenever BO is going to get in trouble, errands there to help him avoid it, but what What what error doesn't realize is that when Mary really has him doing just making sure that our son doesn't get involved in anything by day. Because he can't control himself by night. It's a whole different story. By that time, both doing you know his thing with, with the gang that Mary is put together in Eugene and at the meanwhile air, his home with his with his mother and his family and his girlfriend, and so so that's how we get, but he's now for part of the gang by any means he

don't even know about the gang. He just he's just a kid who who thinks she's helping out individuals in the community because he has a social conscience and being a native American. He he understands how tough it can be for individuals. He really understands all tough. It can be for individuals who have a couple of strikes against them and and so he just stays with Mary and he trusts as well as Janice as there, the mother, really trust, trusts. Married JANET Trust, Mary implicitly yeah and so again it's

sort of proves the point about how these individuals, these bad guys in bed, girls, their consonants people literally and figuratively,. No you you mentioned that Janice felt that Mary was a friend and was had no idea of their real intentions and her gang activity and, like you say they put basically Aaron this big guy? Basically, that's thinking that poses friend and Marys his friend and that he should watch out from so for happen on one day in broad daylight, with Aaron, despite trying to protect the man, Make sure he doesn't get in trouble? What happens? Well, what happens is there's an altercation at a convenience, store and boil boy, and what happens is this is an altercation between Bitch,

Rainbow the Son of Mary and another boy and there's like an argument and what happens is suddenly bowl pulls a knife. Annie slashes at this other boy, and luckily he only he only quote: unquote cuts him a little bit now, you know he slashes at out at him, cuts through the gut the kids clothing, Slash This is around his belly, but it's not too bad, and at that point the cops are cold. And you know somebody calls nine one one and the next thing you know BO is arrested and he'd already been on probation for something else, but now he's arrested for assault. And that puts Aaron right in the middle Becaus me Mary doesn't want him, testifying again

mister Sun, because she knows that if Aaron testified, her son is going to go back to the juvenile lockup Aaron is torn? He doesn't Bosa friend of his Mary. Is a friends? Is his mother, friends with Mary. What is he going to do and at the same time,. The cops, are looking at Aaron's well being involved in this situation, so Aaron has to make it decision about what he's going to do and that going to lead to tragedy. Now, what's the conversation like with his mother Janice and to see the first in the real despicable person. That Mary is compared to Janice it's night and day. So What's the kind of conversation Janice has about this issue well the conversation that Janice has with her with her son is, is you know why

You know you've done everything to try and help both Lynn and if, if you don't do the right thing, which is to tell the truth, you are going to be held responsible or partly responsible and you're, not and you're, not You're not doing anything wrong. What? You're doing is you're, saying but there's an individual out there on the street, who almost killed somebody and so really she's, basically saying to her son. Well Aaron. If you protect BO, what happens next? What happens if he goes out and tries to kill somebody How are you going to feel she's trying to teach her son values and

an errand really listened to his mom about it and he was he was still tour and he didn't know who likes the idea of testifying against the friend or somebody you think, is a Frenchy. That's the operative word. Thank is a friend at this point? Janice doesn't understand that Mary isn't and neither, of course, the daring and so it's really a question of it's not just that question of Garons Self survival, it's more Issaquah what happens next. It's a question of of of I don't know if the golden rule applies here Dan, but it's certainly a question of are we are we going to allow somebody? Are you going to allow somebody Aaron to get?

to go free who tried to kill another human being or you to do the right thing and it's it's a question: Yeah I mean I've had to answer that question in my work and it's a hard and it is But it's especially hard for teenager, certainly but Aaron. I Terra was a very tour young man, and so he made the right decision for himself. But again he didn't know what he was dealing with. Interestingly. You have a term of some a little bit about gang terminology and ritual in in that the mixing men are jumping in and so the the app American Crips they would save if you're jumped in they give you everybody gives you a beating and then you're officially in mixing in, is basically, as you describe from an expert there appeared in this story that yeah, that would be.

Would be taken to rap for someone else. So now, was there a new tour of not taking the rap for both basically you say it comes down to in the end, too, he said: listen, I'm not Bosa Scum, Bag and I ain't going to jail for the scumbag so well, so I think that was me saying that. And another person- and I didn't Okay, that's okay! I think I said using the term that I remembered from Hill Street blues the Mary has all of these young people, these teams around her home. Again we know that this there really actually is this gang and so they're they're in together doing some things. Some burglaries, some some crime definitely in the name of this. Oh yeah. Seventy four Hoover Crips now there's some

mutual friends of air and I guess they go to school. It's a smaller place. So there's lease of Fentress thank arrears. Leary Mart and there's Wade. Hudson, there is Angel Elstead and Jim elsted an and crazy Joe Brown. So tell us about this little group of teenage, is that hang around and what is the talk when Mary Thompson realizes that it looks like there in a tour of, despite being friends with everybody, is going to build the beans and testify and BO will go back to prison, whoa Is she actually staying to these people? What's the tone of the conversation, the tone of the conversation is very simple. It's actually it's funny because, as I was thinking about it today? One of the individuals is cool, crazy, Joe Brown, and I I I I I wish we could to myself

he goes in and of course I remember crazy, Joe Gallo, the famous Bobster and that's where he gets the snip name selector. It gives you a little bit of an idea of the car if individual we're talking about and what Mary does is she she tells these people, these kids, that that, if Aaron is not taken care of then he's going to testify against BO and Boes going to go back, to jail now this this gets back to this woman is charismatic personality, how she could manipulate them to do murder I mean you know I mean you know I I'm sitting here and I'm I'm shit, I'm like, check in my head, because the only way that you can do that with anybody

is this. The individuals involved have not been taught the right way at home. That's my personal opinion and they feel in some way to you, know sure, isn't bar mental and cool and it so somebody you know you want to be part of something bigger than yourself for most of us. That means our country, so these kids, it means their gang, their gang was their country and I've got I tell you one thing been as are you know I realize Larry marking. Well, we we talk about crazy, crazy, Joe and there's just a g mail, stat and research, centers and Larry. Martin is is a synonym. You know when you write it. You know how it is when you do it, but you know when I'm writing books and I'm going use a student. Because I want to keep somebody keep their

remedy if they haven't certainly family charged and then around the periphery, and I realize I just remembered No, why is Larry Morton, oh boy, when there was maybe some people remember a serial called that was on television call Cody, Commander, Cody Sky Marshall, of the universe. Well, when they the second serial. They changed his name from Commander Cody to Larry Martin. So I just said all man I'll use, Larry Martin, you know I could. I can't again, I can't use superhero names anymore, 'cause they're, making movies at it. You know I can't wear my dad, who said Tony Starks, that's not going to work but seriously. Well I'll. Just get back to this. You know which is bad. She. Mary Thompson, uses her for it's a personality to convince these kids

To go out and to commit murder- and she says hey if you don't take care of it, both going to jail, and she makes it clear that she watched this kid dead. She launch Aaron dead and that they will be in um, you know in her highest esteem in our highest esteem Anna. Finally goes back. You know and that's I think, that's a good point in that we're dealing with individuals will obviously don't have a lot of self esteem. Sierran big Aaron had a lot of self esteem. I he as you I have no doubt is, as I've been looking through this again he really would have been a leader of his people, maybe even a leader of this country, but unfortunately he got con. Just like everybody else. Mary Carnes, these individuals,

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Com, slash true murder and enter code, true murder, to say three dollars off any new monthly subscription. When we last left off, we were talking about the care. After of Mary Thompson, but also just to throw in all the sort of the game mentality? She also said well just for the heck of it, I think maybe poison. My dog lars and, I think, maybe he's having sex with kids. So she just tried to throw everything in that she possibly could to convince these people. And she had, I guess, some that she was interested in and they didn't seem to come through. So she finally found somebody else and so tell us what happens. What is Aaron doing what are,

Everybody else doing how who knows what and so set that scene for a spread. Well, wow aboard thinking about loot, crate, zero, I'm actually you know I was you know I can adjust the shoes very quickly, which is you know if you get stuck it's like that from Luke Rate, you get characters, you know what he called dolls or what Do you form that stuff is going to be worth a lot of money to my walk? Man that'll be, worth a lot of money, but anyway, what's happening here is that is that Aaron is. Is is living in a small house with his brothers and sisters and his mom, and they like in many places. You know wherever you know the they took the garage and they made it into a bedroom. You know I mean everybody seen that I think you know, Now I mean you know I mean I know I've seen it. You know

and I don't mean to imply that everybody is living in a house, okay, I don't mean that, but I'm saying that we've we've seen that if you get a little experience so anyway, Aaron is in bed one night with his girlfriend and he sleeping And uhm he's sleeping he's, not thinking about anything you know is just sleeping and being more what's happening, is outside The the two individuals that decide to do this hit to make Mary Thomas Happy L, Staten Brown, they go, Part of the house a little bit earlier in the evening, and then she lights are on and they said well. This is not a good time to do it. Ann Then they come over later on and it's like! Oh, I don't know around midnight and the house is, is in such it's not facing

the street, it's like between other houses, so they come. And what they do is they they steal in they all open the door to get into the garage. Ann They see the kid in good. And they have their weapon with them, and Jim Elstead fires one shot. An air NIST is on his side. You know sleeping and the bullet goes in and comes out in the front. And at that point at that point shortly thereafter, different awakens and's, It's actually very similar to what happens Abraham Lincoln 'cause, I just wrote that scene for my book coming out in September, which is that when Lincoln was shot

they didn't realize it first, the doctor who first shows up to help him doctor legal, he didn't realize you can shot because it's in the back of the head and it's you know it's covered with here and so forth. Will basically the same thing happen. The girlfriend and in later Janice the the mother is not. Where that he's been shot 'cause. They see something they think he's been hit from the front of his head. The bullet goes all the way through and comes out and that it it's shocking. I I don't. You know it's just a shocking scene and at that point it's you know, Amazingly, it's amazing. It's very similar thinking you know Lincoln survive for about twelve hours because he had a strong car. The two Shanle Aaron was the same way he survives. But what happens is his mom wants to go to the hospital

with him and she still doesn't know it's a bullet. Won't. She still thinks you know. He said that and the cops did their job. They did a very good job because anytime somebody is is killed or I'm sorry, anytime, somebody's assaulted, and it's in somebody's house. The first thing you do is look at the family and they needed to do a cow person test to make sure that she didn't have any gunpowder residue with her and her kids. So that's the first thing but they do until and then she's finally allowed to go to the Hospital in the meanwhile the too bad guys they don't. They don't run very for that. One one of them looks like across the street. You know they just run across the street and nobody knows what the heck is going down. I mean it's just like boom boom, that's it! You know one shot, that's it and they go across the street and then

you know, other things will happen, of course, but the police certainly don't know. What's going on at this point, how do police proceed with this? Of course they they done. The necessary procedures in terms of securing the, crime scene, making sure that they can eliminate all of the fan only with any kind of potential witnesses? I'm sure they do all those did all those things by the book. But what do they do to be able to look for suspects? What's the process for them? Well, the process is, is they begin to feel like There is something gang related and so once they think it's gang related. They go to the x. On there. Who is

who's? You know their gang test for stewed and at that point they face they hate. Listen. Can you find out what's going on and he said well, you know I'll see what I We do all cool game mom. So so here we have this duration, where Mary Thompson is put a hit out on this kid and and then she's like the first one that they're gonna contact to say. Oh, do you know what do you think about this? Can you tell us You know what's going on here, I mean you can't come what is better cover than this. I mean it's brilliant, yeah, it's brilliant, and so they start looking at you know, they start questioning her and and No, and then you know when that you know, and then they go from point a to point, b and so forth and so on. But what well? What

nope. What nobody knows is that the detective that comes the primary on the case, Jim Mashahd. He knows from another incident. Previous to this, and that essentially is what, destroys her con because Jim is shot had dealt with her previously and on something else, so he immediately when he sees that she's involved intent to go up, and he starts thinking with a second what's going on here and then it becomes a question of of dog in police pursuit and and- and you know, and bringing these you know taking closer. Look at the individuals involved in in the gang activity in in usual, which of course is going to lead back to her.

Very interesting you introduce the character, Rick Reiner and he's the guy. That's totally convinced that Mary Thompson's, the and gang moment, she's real, effective, has that. And Jim Shod, like you say, I'll, I'll, just kind of encapsulated and she was working at a sign company. I know some money missing so Jim God was called for help. Now he was he came to this uh, an interview, Mary Thompson and he had put on and he was looking at resumes and that's how they kind of narrowed it down he's looking at reservation, then he was looking wait, a minute field investigator for the job. The scene county Police Department, ok and then he just and Mary. Just so, the record is like five foot, eight hundred and sixty pounds kind of stocky woman. She He says: listen, you were a drug, informant did not a field investigator and heavily in the drug trade. There an and he said, he's lying

And he said well how 'bout this can't can't state called can't stand there. Never there up there line ten states lying so can't state line, so? Jim basically had a really good idea of the kind character. Even in the face of facts, full information, she would still try to lie your way out of it deny her way out of it. But yet he knew the character of this woman's. You also describe tell us the scene, where they meet each other again and that just and you do capture that that it must have been a very, very satisfying, see and an event for Jim shot. Well, what happens is here initially doesn't want. Her to know it's, because she knows that if she knows he's going to clam up so he keeps he keeps his identity secret. Four

An appreciable portion of the, even though he's the primary on the cage. He keeps his identity secret for a certain period of time until he feels that it's time to come out from the shadow And when he does, he said they very how you doing he's introduced by, I think it's rain, or that introduces them and she doesn't blank real I mean she is a cold blooded killer, and so he- and he of course, is he's getting a kick out of this. There's no question because you know he know she's after the right person, and so it's so when it finally comes about he's hoping that when she realises that he knows her, and that he knows that she's

she's, a liar in the past. He's hoping, like the other cops, do that she's going to make some mistakes and, say this and that and so forth, and so on that will implicate her but she's she's a stone, he is a stone cold murderer as any that I have ever written about she is stone cold. She is as bad as any serial killer and and uh, and so so, while he gets a certain amount of a pleasure- and I don't blame you know cat and mouse game Jim really understands what he's up again. Let's really understands he's, he's going up against the especially from there previous interaction which she said she went to Kent State, university and and then she she claims. She went to a community college afterwards to take some course on foot

keeping and then, like you, point out, she just said they're all lying. You know that you know when, since checks all these these references and they they don't check out, and so he hoping that she's going to fold in some way, but it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. I mean she is just stone: Cold, an stone, cold. Now the information that the police are getting about this about the culprits, potentially again she use be again an informant when you can see that she's, a natural informant in that she's. Will turn in anybody. It doesn't seem to see it loyalty that maybe your son, possibly, but in the end, I don't even think that, but one

what did the police find out just from the mouth of Mary Thompson regarding potential culprits? Oh well, she she claims that the bed got the guys that committed she just decides to turn in the the the bad guys they got the Joe Brown and Janelle's dad else. That is the trigger man. Brown is the guy that accompanies them To kill Aaron and she just basically turns him in she. Just not well turns men. She she says that they, came to her house since that night after the murder, and they said that they capped Aaron gang, speak for killed, and so she she doesn't have. Any compunction about about warming on these, the men, these members, their members of her of her secret gang,

and there, the ones who commit this crime, and the idea, of course, is that if she informs on them, Then she figures that I will get them in. The cops will be satisfied on free, my sons, free and she can continue to do what she's doing. That's, that's the sushi, that's a rationale, and again she has no conscience whatsoever about doing any of this. Why should she how many concerts you know she doesn't have any conscience. So she just said: hey man, I'm just gonna. You know she just makes a decision. You know self present, mission, I'm going to inform and then she doesn't have any values and that's what she does she distant forms and says they got it and then, on the basis of that and how the revenants they put together, they could take these dudes into custody. Now, with Jim Shodan, again he's quite the character in terms of his resolve.

Right away with this information, and why would you know why would she put out this information because she knows that somebody like Jim Mashahd is onto her, so she These kind of anticipating that something might Lead to her so she's talking like that tour to these officers, she's think she's, very clever. But what happens? Is that machine? puts, are in a in a situation where she a stew. Get her phone wired at four conversations and What I was thinking too, was before that when she talks about the deflection about these two guys doing it. What happens when these two guys were arrested and again. True true to her plan. What do these You guys say when they are arrested? Well, these guys They, what even what

they say to the cops this exactly that's true to form they're taking the fall for this crime. They're pretty happy about this, and as we Oh, yes, you talk about in the book later, there's a lot of evidence about how? watch the really enjoy their work? Oh yeah! They their proud. Of the fact that that they had been arrested for this. Their extremely proud of the fact that they've been arrested for this, because you know they've been arrested for committing and- and this is a big deal with in their gang culture and they figure that hey. You know. You know this makes them even more popular. Even it's not so much at this point that they're accepted it's more like they're celebrities, very

Within their limited world, and they you know, there are more than happy to to take the fall. Because, again it's it's it's you know this is They think, like you know there there there hotshot, they think that they're. You know they think that there major gangsters and so that there are more than happy to take, the fall, and I think they also know that is, juveniles, I mean so far that the state can go in charging them you know you're not dealing with a situation where you've got capital punishment and it you make me eat any difference anyway? Well, actually I was just going to say it would make a difference because capital punishment for juveniles.

Would not little down in the United States until the millennium, but they're not dealing with that in this particular state. You know the best they could could have gotten, supposedly you know they could've gotten life, but that's not certainly that they're, not thinking about that all they're. Thinking about his hey, you know I'm pop you know I'm real popular, I'm sort of thinking about it right now and think to myself. These kids were a little bit more ok did they might have tried selling their story. I've seen this plenty of times with bad guys. Are you know, cap. Shirt and they want to sell this story to the movies you know, but as far as they're concerned a man Were popular, you know, and these are boys, so they fit that it'll make them real popular with the girls. You know they're, not thinking about so I'm gonna go to you know going to go to prison, I'm going to some dudes bitch they're, not thinking about it that way, they're thinking about it,

Well, you know what maybe I should be a couple of years and I get out and now I'm even more popular than ever before. Again, you know conscious no conscience, Mary was very smart in picking people close to be part of a gang that really don't have a conscious. And in these two individuals she took down. Well, no, she like. I said she planned on having that kind of reaction from these two guys that they wouldn't, when questioned at Mary, put you up to this. This is part of married. It has any involvement, is no Mary, don't have any involvement. You know He called her mom right. So both my cell phone come on. So so and, and the thing is, is that she also told the police some things that again,

in her mind, cleverly kept her out of being prosecuted for anything yet would Expn playing some things like you can explain about the gun in the story she told police and the idea that they came to the came to her and told her, but somehow she didn't believe it so tell us about this all general tail. Well, you know what that's an interesting one that yeah they came to. Her then told her about the gun that they use. And then what happens is um she talks to them about getting rid of the evidence, and so they drive down. The idea is to get rid of the gun and the bullets that the bullets left in the gun. Remember: there's only one bullet, that's fired. It's once

and by the way, that's not like that. This kid to else that was a great shot. It was. It was almost point. Blank range like six feet. Actually went down to the river where this occurred and and I I was thinking about it for some reason. It stayed in my mind, and you know it's like, Wait. I I he they do goodnight. I did it during the day or so, but she think she takes this truck and she drives down this you know obscure road to this river in his rapids you know, and she and what happens is she stops the car and, in the else dad gets out of the car and he takes the bullets out of the gun. And it goes over two to the banks of the river and he throws the bullets in any

the, but this is a kid that is not going to be drafted by by any major league team. He has a lousy arm. So what happens? Is the bullets don't go very for neither does the gun time in this part is really amazing when you think about it that they could even recover this stuff and- they will eventually her. The gun and and in a certain way that I describe in the book and then at least one of the bollocks, which of course helps with the different sex, but I remember when I was standing by the banks of that river and I was looking up and down the river. You know what I mean and and looking and saying, and it's a very isolated place. And you know Mary knew what she was doing. Man. She really knew what she was doing 'cause. This was it's not like you know,

you're you know like where I come from the Hudson River, you know with his people all over the joint. It's it's isolated. You know we're out in the country some place, but they don't count on the fact That that they're, not counting on the current, what the current this is when the bullets are thrown in and when the gun is thrown in, they just figure it's going to look to the bottom and now melting and so forth doesn't quite workout that way. But I gotta tell you when I was standing. There you know. Looking out. You know it's amazing what I think about you know what you think about years later, when you're working on a case and it it was very isolated, but I got a borrowed from the place. You know it was one of those places that you know you wouldn't want to. It was I use a

You wouldn't go there at night unless you're an idiot, you wouldn't go there, so they she picked. Very, very well. A place to get rid of the weapons other weapon rather and the and the and the bullets have and dumb you know Then she she thought and and the dead guards thought it was going to workout in their favor what they didn't, understand was how currents work. And they didn't understand that you know the possibility that there could be chance that they could recover any of this material and the most important thing is. They didn't understand that they were up against a cop that was gonna give up now. This is he The guy that won't give up, because you have a a situation, will talk about in a second about the DA offers are in ninety five, a deal just for Hendry, prosecution way way off from any kind of murder or anything else. But let's talk

or again, some really dramatic scenes is the funeral and again Futura, married Janice had called Mary ten. Fifteen times that they couldn't get ahold of her thought. It was odd after the after the murder, then thread well see her at the funeral. What happens at the funeral should show up? I bet Your bloody Mary does not show up she's, not there. She doesn't show up until some, Time later, when she shows up at her house and Jana this is really upset by this and there it's a conversation that occurs uh. Well, I should let me just backtrack

and this is really assume right out of the movies where Chima shot is hanging out at the funeral. Looking at everybody, you know the cop is looking to see if he's going to find any clues and Mary doesn't show up, but short time later, she does show up at genesis. House And she makes a big mistake and that will come. Component are, but at this point. What's happening is that Mary makes all kinds of excuses for not showing up to Janice, and is not you know, I'm your friend and blah blah blah and blah blah blah, but it it's and it's just not having any of it and the the thing is is if I saw the ad, which is Jenn This is daughter, MIA feels oh, my god, tremendous guilt Becaus. What happens is LISA Centris, who is the one of the members of the gang.

She is the button woman phrase that I got some actions. The phrase would be, but a man I think the only place I've ever seen. It was the Godfather, but basically she confirms that Aaron's home the night that they go to get him, but my it takes the phone call with she asks for Aaron, MIA, says well he's in the next room or something like that. You can't get him and she feels that, images amount of guilt and sure this poor girl sister has a suet. Because she feels this tremendous guilt. I think one That came across to me Dan, which was lad the the damage that- these killers can do the families just is not just obviously the individual they kill or the Para but it's also the siblings and other relatives. Who are

around that individual and the fallout is just tremendous. You know I always say that murder, ripples through generations, murder, ripples through generations. We see this time and time again and so the damage that Mary Thompson caused and her son beau will ripple through the Itera family in years to come. That's, unfortunately, the way it is. Can it be mediated in some way through therapy medication? Yes, but there's still damage, there's still damage and if there's one thing that's come across What's the median in writing. True crime, that's what's come, across to me. You know what I mean, how you know, people who are.

Involves, the relatives to friends and I animal? I can also talk about this. Personally, I had four people close to the murder or okay and it it it it. It's terrible, terrible But you know the only thing that any of us can do. And I'm sure there are some individuals that are listening to our show tonight. Uh who are have been in this situation, the only thing that we can do is too continue on and certainly try to get justice for the individual who's killed, but also live our lives in such a way that we honor the individuals that have died. I agree and let's talk about, let's talk about. The natural consequence of Aaron Artura, if you think about it, is the

bo, is now released from prison. Because now there's no witness to this crime, there's going to be no buddy to testify so he's out. So Mary is quite happy that her son, both Lin, is out yes, so Tell us about the circumstances where she doesn't want to go for this police. He says no, I'm not guilty of anything. How do they get to point where Mashahd Rick Reiner leaves the guy that was really sympathetic and thought she great he's he's gone somehow, but How does my shot get her into a situation? the position that the she is forced to put a wire on her phone before we get into the almost fantastic, almost somewhat comma, call almost some of it the car more stations that were recorded by this wire warrant? Well, what happens with

and initially initially there is a situation here. The walking the wire is put on a phone, so just get somebody in Rituals involved in the um in errands death in other ways, he's cooperating, but after the fact what happens is. There is under the impression that. There is no more wire and what Jenna shot has this feeling. What is feeling that a lot of beat optics the crime in Eugene. The result of the seventy four Hoover Crips, led by Mary Thompson and.

If he's the only way, and the only way to find this out is to put a secret wire on them and I'll tell you this was like textbook stuff. I mean it's like what they did was they established listening post some place in downtown Eugene. They didn't do it it's police department because they were concerned that not not Rick Reyna, it could've been you know, and we don't need to imply in any way that Rick Reiner said anything to her or anything. But that's not the point. The point is it's just that You going after a murderer, an you need, you need privacy in order to establish the wire and

you know set the wire up and at the same time, have a listening post and so what they do is that's exactly what they do. They set up a listening post, be downtown Eugene or uptown, whatever you wanna call it, and at the same time At the same time, they they have Marys Phone wire Ann. That and and that weeds to release a month. Believable stuff Becaus Mashahd is trying to do who is not only good evidence to get her for the murder of of of Aaron, but also to try to bust. They suspect is a gang that she's running secretly at night.

So they were able to get the wiring and that that was what what was quite interesting by the way, which was for me anyway, which was it's not so we your. Why are you know you gotta go through a court order. You know, I'm sure it's the same, where you know where You know Australia in Canada, France, wherever it might be, obviously Russia, don't do anything they want to do you know, I'm going to get put in coming coming after me, right and but but but seriously. It's very interesting. Because they, the gym, has Jenna Sean has to go before the judge. Given this Warren says, this is Why I wanna do this and so forth, and so on judge has to say yes because obviously people, civil liberties or it's steak, and so they get the warrant that place the wire And their egos at this point doesn't know the water is on and established the listening post and they start listening and they hear quite a bit.

No eventually yeah they kredible conversations from all of the players, LISA and uh all kinds and Larian. So she is playing the they don't know that she's, a rat she's she's, the snitch it of the snitch is here the queen of the snitch is there not really they're, not aware of that that trial will have to see get to ahead head for the trial in that. Finally, there's enough, you know, there's enough evidence so that Jim is shot, makes the rest. They make the arrest and now it's time for court and she's, psychopathic and she's against the wall, Tell us a little bit about the trial dynamic with it's about how the the scene where Jim Michaud they have, information enough evidence so that they make their rest on Mary Thompson? Well, the there is a big

singing in the book, where happening. Is that one right prior to this bo, the son who's who's free uh? He decides that he's going to get some guns, and I guess he's going to sell him or something like that, and the cops have to make a decision. And that makes it it's very interesting because I you know it's the car stuff. You know you know I I I've never seen any of this. You know I can tv or anything like that. When do you compromise of wire all right, I naked this. Fusion, that every human life is at stake. Don't compromise the wire, so when this kid Flynn gets these guns I think are from LISA is going to sell him some. That is a user is going to use him he's going to use it for like holdups and so forth. At that point, the cops close in.

And bo leaves them on a merry chase across the city and, as it happens, they have the wiretap go and Mary is listening in rather an individual. Another individual is part of a gang Koelzer references on while listening to the the scanner and they're going after BO So here we got a situation where the cops are listening: Trenary who's, talking to a guy who's, listening to a police scanner telling her that they're, going after her son and all she wants is for him to come home. That's all she wants an so that Bolides, I'm gonna marry chase across the city and it isn't until They they

actually get him and it takes quite some time to do that that They finally closing are on Mary and she is arrested for plotting, or rather actually she's she's essentially arrested for plotting errands murdered, though that's not technically what she's charged with that's. What's interesting to me: 'cause, they don't charge with first degree murder. I think it should actually charged with third degree, but I didn't look at it aggravated aggravated yeah then they throw the book at her Ann and uh and then the shot you know he's he's doing the best that he can working with the process, prosecutors, Steve Skelton and by the way, the hardest thing. I'm writing this thing going. Prosecutors know Steve scale.

All I kept thinking is red Skelton. You know this should be, and so Mashahd is is, is the situation we're now after you know sure he gets a lot of pleasure out of arrest and marry. You know she done it, but it's now after the prosecutor, to put her away and again, this is not the most serious crime idea is you know and of course Mary is going to say. Well, I didn't do anything on the other guide on it. You know, and that's Basically, you know she uses the other guy defense, ah, you know Mashahd. Is there all the time at the trial because she's really invested? That's that's the thing I found out. It's quite interesting, be but she's invested emotionally. You know it That's the motion, like I don't see that towards- and you know in about you know anybody else. You know he does this work, but this was it

Alright, you know who, who you know, he's really was invested emotionally in this and bringing this woman down and he got it you know, he understood what was going down here. So you know, there's a trial and, and it's it's a dramatic trial because she's claiming you know she didn't have any knowledge about what was going on and her attorney did the best that he could too to show that she was innocent and certain you know, as you read it least, I read it. You realize this system works. Sometimes you know, I always say this again. I only say this system works if you work it. This is this. Is that kind of a situation it's just work, because they worked it. They did it by the numbers. And what impresses me is the sack that not only with a dildo,

in about it, but they didn't violate anybody's civil rights, and that's all you hear about today. You know so here about, but this is what county situation these people, the police, the prosecutors you work within the law because they were building the right thing and I think that's the reason why they got the result that they did. I found interesting that they used all the players that were culpable right. You. You see a lot of examples in America and this is. What you don't see in a lot of jurisdictions is the culpability for everybody involved, even if they weren't at the crime scene in itself or you wouldn't have that in along Canada. At all you know it harder to prove in the UK, which this was a podcast there last week to create that yes to create the culpability of all five people. Two people were in that case, but in this which was interesting is that they use those people

is the wiretaps and use that psychology against them. It also realize that these people were there were kids that were we certainly were not innocent, but there weren't criminal charges. They didn't drag these guys through the courts and say: listen. Give you a deal and give you thirty years. If you, you know you rat out on your friends, so they really stuck to the people that were the the the gunman and his associate, what yeah I've wanted Mary and Mary had to take the stand, because so much eh it is against. Are in so many witnesses good witnesses. Like Cameron, Slade, came forward and said yeah. I knew it. Going to do it. The gun was passed around. She said this guy is going to solve our problem. You know so there's a lot of stuff. There was a lot of stuff on the wiretap. She slipped up, other people, she didn't realize with a couple of statements were incriminating, so they didn't have to resort to. Plea agreement, which would give her a slap on the wrist and, like you

say you describe. The trial was at eight hours later or something they came back. What was the? What did they give her as a sentence? Well, that's the part. You know, as I was reading it surprise me that that uh when I wrote it and it surprised me now. I can't believe what they gave her. They gave her life. I have an I have become. For all I haven't. You know and the same thing you know is you talking about it? You know what coming across to me, could you got tremendous perspective? Is that everything was aboveboard You said they weren't trying to turn the you know twist the arms of the witnesses who had evidence they did right way, they actually appealed to their consciences and I think, as as as

yes, we're talking about it right now. I think that's why there was a conviction, because the message could not come back and say? Well, you made a deal with Cameron later. You made a deal with least adventures so whatever it might be, you know you never deal with. Angel else said they couldn't come back and say that they were doing everything so everything above board in. I think it has a lot to do with this particular. State Oregon you so again in there is some states that I feel do things more above board, quite frankly than others and in the Pacific Northwest. Those people in its skin in Washington, state and Oregon state. You know what the record shows that that the that they do things Bob

Ford doesn't mean you know, you're not going to have situations where you know with the cops, do something wrong, but I would say the preponderance of of cases, and certainly in this one, that they do the right thing and, as a result of getting all of having these individuals testified and country dictionaries, testimony that she knew exactly what was going on. She set the whole thing up. That's why the jury came back with the guilty verdict and that's why the judge pronounced her guilty and sorry, the judge Pronounced sentence is life. He didn't have to do that. You know you have here. Is discretion but he didn't you know he. He went with what the jury said, because that was the preponderance of evidence, certainly beyond a reasonable doubt,

it's great that the psychopathic character, socio pathic sociopathic nature prevented her from taking deal earlier on so lucky unlucky in that regard and, and also just the really we captured a character of Jim Mashahd and how much this case really meant to him and just how much he wanted to defeat this woman to make sure she was brought to justice. Not just these two kids that he thought were, certainly responsible, but he knew who was the bigger culprit out of this deal, this two faced person it had turned in. You know, media or pardon me anti gang activist. Within truth, she was just the exact not meet regal media. Is it anti gang activist promoted by the media? Absolutely right, and you know what you're also pointing out something else which I hadn't thought until this mom

because he will you have tremendous perspectives and which is that Jim, the shot was obviously raised the right way. Think of it, you know when you think about it, you know. He didn't try any tricks. He did violate any civil rights. You know he's the direct antithesis of the kind of cops that you see so much in the news today who seemed to violate individuals alright, at least in the United States, which you see a lot of this, is a different kind of guy. This is a guy who. Who was raised with a strong sense

right and wrong, but was not going to violate anybody civil rights. He was going to do this fair and square and, as I get more experience, I find that not to be necessarily the norm. You know what I mean. I mean it's, it's you know it not necessarily the norm to have a detective that will be so in doing the right thing. I want to believe all detectors will do this, but I don't. But realistically that's not the case. There are too many instances where laws of civil rights are violated too many instances were cops, abuse individuals in order to get confessions. This is not the case. We're talking about a guy who I'll tell the law and

I might add, had a sense of humor and I will also say he Mix is a mean martini, yeah, I'm sorry I'll go ahead, no kind enough. You know you dinner and you know and it's the martini and I'm not a martini guy. You know he was kind enough to to do this and again you don't fine. People you don't want to mean like they open themselves up, and you know specially tool reporter I mean you, don't see too much of this stuff today, Dan, you know it was nice to is One of the last scenes is basically, of course, Mary, getting hers you know, but that these other people sort rebuilding their lives a little bit from this ashes of this nonsensical, make believe gang anyway nonsense, but but also that

the hero of the book, Jim Michaud Basically, like you say, has uh. I almost wanted to have a make a martini after I heard how he was doing it. So it was a martini and he had just married is girlfriend, and so he for once it wasn't, you know the police. Officer that was totally consumed by the job in a very, very negative way. It's I'm sure. It's I'm sure it's had its effect, but in this book anyway in this scene that you describe it's it's Jim with His girlfriend enjoying life with a martini so fair, very fitting Andrew attic scene at the end of the book, to a very, very I again, not really happy ending. But again and it just you really portray Jim Shaw. Does this kind of very, very interesting character, little bit so castec and so great great writing. A Fred and capturing the this is Dan. Thank you very much for coming on and talking about it we're going to have back on August 31st, I believe

talking about your next book. So just tell us a quick plug for that. And here how people might want to get a hold of you, Facebook and just tell us the open road contact as well. Just before I thought you go as far as, As far as open road, you can just go to. You know open road. I think it's open rd dot com, but all the books are available at Amazon, DOT, com, type in my name, Fred Rosen- and I'm also anybody wants contact me, you can send me an email, it's at Dunkin I have the book coming out on September one it's and I worked just look for fourteen years and it's called murdering the President Alexander Bryan Bell in the race to say James Garfield, and I prove in this book that James Garfield was not killed by Charles Ghetto, as history says that it was somebody else that kill them.

And the books has. The forward is written by President's great great grandson Garfield and we can talk about it, but hunters available also to come on and talk about it, and it was quite it It was quite a an investigation. I have to tell you to go back over one one hundred years and having to write three different presidential assassination scenes. It is a reason for it. It was really quite something and it it is, quite frankly I think, is the best thing I've ever written and I never said anything like that. But you know I felt it Sponse ability, as I always do to to the victims, family and and I do the best that I couldn't. I hope people like the book. Well, as fascinated talking to about it and look forward to reading it, of course, and it you know thanks.

To have you back on and discussing that in the near future. So thank you very much Fred for coming on another great interview talking about gang mom. You have yourself a great. Great thread. Thank you very much and goodnight. You click down, and it's always a pleasure, take care yourself, Sir Goodnight. Hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvements of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with a Quicken loans. Thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two five percent be receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions because, like license in all fifty states and with over thirty thirty.

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