Emerging technologies are transforming the healthcare industry, as we know it. Investors say hello to H tack, a portfolio dedicated to capturing the significant growth potential of healthcare. Innovation, learn more at rubble, global dot com, Slash h, t e c hi, I'm Jay Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans, who are planning home improvement of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with the Quicken Loans thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com researching a one point: two five percent the receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions, because when it wasn't enough to states and one hundred thirty law, hi, I'm Jay, Farner, ceo of Quicken Loans, thirty percent of Americans who are planning home improvement of five thousand dollars or more will pay for those renovations with a high interest credit card. That may not be a great idea. A better idea may be to take cash out of your home with the Quicken Loans thirty year fixed rate mortgage. The rate today, in our thirty year, fixed rate mortgage is three point: nine nine percent APR four point: zero. Eight percent call us today at eight hundred Quicken or go to rocket mortgage dot com rates of exchange. At one point, two: five percent the receive the discount rate, all the concentration in conditions, because when it wasn't enough to states and one hundred thirty hi, it's Jamie progresses number. One number two employee leave a message at the Hey Jamie. It's me Jamie. This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your acappella group, Matt Harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean you're, the guy always helping people find coverage options with the name, your price tool. It should be you given me the pep talk now get out there hit that high note and take Matt Harmony, all the way to nationals. This yeah

progressive casualty, insurance company, affiliates price coverage match limited by state law. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. During World WAR Ii, lithuanian collaborators sylvestris greek Shell had been plucked from a Nazi death camp and send

covert missions buys allied handlers. Now, Joe in the cold war, he been redeployed as Steve Griggs, a nondescript american huh and father of four serving stateside as a cook in the US army, those still doing back black bag jobs. On the side, it's dangerous, volatile man was consumed by an insatiable appetite for sadistic violence and psychological torture, and now his obsessions involved his own children. Our story begins just Greg's in his lovely wife Diane, please Diane and Stephen in the secret Multi generational program from experimentation, study and training, with psychedelic enhancement, with each episode, the brave boy and his clever sister survive. We come to appreciate how they've managed to prevail and, like HANS, and Gretel number from this matrix of poor, triumphant and transformed Sondra in as

confessions of serial killers and research, some of the most depraved criminal minds of our time after twenty four years of studying the real life monsters in cages where murder road comes to a dead end Sunday. Declares that nothing in the true crime genre compare, So this vivid and intimate out of surviving more terror at the hands of the undetectable. So will kill their sylvette wrist. The book they were featuring this evening is good live soldiers and a memoir of true horror with my special guest journalist and author Sandra London. Welcome so the program- and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Sondra London, what hello Dan? How are you I always admired your podcast and I'm proud to participate. Thank you very much. It's been a couple years since we spoke it's my pleasure to have you on the program with this incredible book: good soldiers. We don't want to

turn off base because we only have an hour to explain this very, very complicated and incredible case. Suffice to say, let's just say how you came to be in a position, to write good little soldiers. Tell us about that. Ok try to cut to the chase, and we already start with me having been exposed serial killer myself at a young age and written a couple of books on that and will pick up where I was contract, with the filmmaker to research, mind, control and went to a simple museum, and that's where I met Stephen Griggs in Stephen, sent me a Box of research that he had done on his case, and this is how I learned about the

ok Steven I dealt with Steven for three years before he felt that he dreaded me enough to allow me to be introduced to his sister Diane and then it was Diane's Voice and Diane's experience and Diane's character. That really drew me uh. I didn't work on the book right away, but that story just haunted me and I kept coming back to it and so all in all it took thirteen years from the time I met Steven until was able to really complete this project. What's interesting about this book and so unique. Is that, as you say, you You're the author of books that are incredible, will raise into the minds of serial killers and- and that is

establish that research all that work that you have done. What is it about this case in particular? That's much different, then, as you explain a say, true crime story. What is the difference between this memoir and a traditional true, five story. Okay, first of all, a big big difference is the point of you, because I had concentrated on bringing out the point of view of the killer before and in this case, since the voice of the victim and intimate witness the killers daughters and is solely eight that particular this is quite different. The other important aspect of the difference is the very idea of true crime and since we're here on a murder, she, how are better, go into that

my understanding, a true crime has come to be that this is a marketing term and they have a true crime book with large upon headlines, did do the public steep for it and it relies upon going through the court process that invalidate information the book is to include to and words ripped from the headline is the key to true crime, and since our perpetrator here was never indicted, convicted and went his entire life is what are called the undetectable serial killer. They

We didn't have the advantage of those court records. We didn't have the publicity does generated by our you know a nationwide manhunt in the nicknames. You know like the night stalker. All of this is a marketing category that could climb sits under, but I did not want this voice to be lossed even though it could not meet that firewall wall. So I declared it it's genre of true horror, because that goes to the harbor of knowing and experience feeling and experience having experience and then, when you go to try to tell about it. You're met with this belief had matters a big order of a narrative of the book. Is these kids telling and telling and telling

in detail exactly how the consequences unreal from tower these unwanted tales. Now you start again we're going to do the voice of Diane and she knows herself as an E. So we can call Diana. We can call her any, but you talk about just right from the beginning to King us right inside to the going to the fort, so tell us how old Diane Orani is at that time and then describe this experience as you do in the very beginning of her goal, going to this for an examination at the fourth and tell us what the Ford is and tell us a little bit more about this hi Darren, her brother Steven or children of a soldier and they live on base, and so they flip in housing on the grounds of Fort Devens

and dying is six and her brother was nine at the time when our book starts and her dad and her mom take them down. To the office at before. It actually go through gate and go on to the fort itself and may go to a clinic and they actually signing Diane and her brother into a experimental secret program for what they called the best and the brightest. They were chosen to be in this pro Graham during that scene, the little tries to promote the fact that he has these other kids and maybe they'd like them too, and then no, they said they were not qualified to Steven and Diane were and so that going on where they were taken down to the clinic

for for a period there is every day and the clinic was a clue. Above ground. But then they had a spiral hall that gradually would go down to below in. At that point they called it. The lab and that's There are a lot of this. Special training was going on now. We've heard I didn't. I didn't want this book to come out and tip people knew what mind, control and MK. Ultra was because I have so much the towel and I can't just go on and on. I have to fit it into one book, so I want no? But now it's become diluted because people say Mk Ultra about everything, including Beyonce and Jay Z. You know and that's gone

are a field from the real thing. But you know our M K. Okay, the program was only funded. Nineteen sixty one and dying in it, Stephen Moore already in the lab at that point, but die impaled from is not the first program. Number one and not the first government funded hypnosis and lsd treatment of chill. This is already going on for three years on the record at the date that Diane and Steven entered into that program. Now you talk What would be the potential advantage? I mean it seems altruistic that the parents would want to have to do whatever patriotic thing they could do. He is little after its money, but the money is actually superior to. Everyone clearly stated that that money was

going into a fund for the children when they got older. But the father is such a patty willfully misconstrued that in All he had l, he thought was money in Baghdad, He meant money for him now and eventually that his verbal character, with the big reason why the kids were bumped out of the program is he went down there and tried to shake them down wanting the money he's a he stole equipment from the lab when he was allowed, bring them deliver them to the lab in the morning and walking with them. He stole each equipment and got caught bad. So you know I mean, don't get the idea that some kind of big gene

is mind: controlled murderers, some kind of intelligent person. You know someone with ethics. This is just a real jerk and every way. Now you talk about right away at a very, very young age, and maybe you could tell us how old Steven is in comparison to Diane three. There are two pardon me. Sorry. Three years older and there's two other daughters as well, and so you talk about right away. Diane and Steven are witness to dad's incredible cycle out behavior, but yeah that it into more of again. He uses the children it has a ruse to to do the things that he wants to do? What are the children right from the very beginning of this book? What does they witness in terms of eight from the sadistic murders in

we're not like a you know. There are the book ends and they did run into this, so called a serial killer. Experts at the FBI would try to brow, beat them with their theories. You know the book is that our serial killers have up. Compulsion and then maybe reenact their fantasy over and over and they leave a signature? All that is a bunch of tv is fiction makes a good. You know fiction plot by this guy right here, regardless of the other serial killers. This guy right here was all over the map. He did every kind of murder- and I really didn't include only included some in this book that kind of maintain a kind of a continuity of a story that they were a lot more So you had the sadistic murders of long drawn out, courtship and torture of the young girls. Are you had the rape and

murder of a little black boy right in this very sadistic. Scenario that in which she- and and involved Diane and Stephen. Then you had these almost reckless careless type murders. No, there were five dead bodies of soldiers, we don't know how they died, but you would get the children out of bed and make them go with him. While he took those bodies out of where he had them and and transported them somewhere else and to get committed. A yeah necrophilia type poem, one of those dead soldiers bodies. So you really, I mean you'd like to think that there was a pattern or something but the scope of these guys activities with much Further than then, I can include in any one book you

what, at the same time, the. Fort where they were where the testing was done on on Stephen and yes, because it is one five twenty, it was just a lot of entertaining now that was testing, but they were third in undergoing military grade training and what to what end? What was the purpose of this training. Why? Why they selected and what was the purpose of their training? Well, we can only reverse engineer that, and we know that overall, the goal of the M K Ultra funding was to create super soldiers to militarize of the mind so that somehow or another people could more effectively be compelled. To kill on command and really that was part of the dramatic development in the book where the became the crucial question

revolving around Diane's participation. But I can tell you I have interviewed, oh, my goodness, over a dozen other people that were involved in these programs document that I have the transcripts and this's re enacted almost well every time really because it always come down to that. In other words, the idea is, will you kill and they hypnotic Peter, is it to break the personality to so Septa scenario where the hip not hypnotized, alter believes that they conditions are being met? In other words, if it get them to to two that they would kill to protect their mother, they could be hit. Nautically persuaded that this person there being pointed at, is trying to kill their mother? So that's a simp

explanation of what everything always came down to, but along the way you got a bill of along the way a lot of these. But this was not just pure, clean, medical or anything. It was crazy people down in there and they did a lot of really sick and crazy things. I really no point no point to Louis Jolyon West to was won the Premier mine controlled, experimental doctors and president of the United States, American Psychiatric Association meeting handled our dark, be handled the and so forth, and what did he do? He does turn the current with enough with enough LSD, two and within five minutes, elephant was in seizures and within the hour the elephant was dead. Now, why? What was it We did that. I suppose you could say well. We need to know how much I

thanks to kill an elephant right, but that's how you read the I do under which the terms were granted to do this research in this training, but then you had just anybody in there that had real perverted and sadistic a leanings. Now that said, I need to get writing here and say that this is not the nature of what Diane and Stephen experience. They were not treated sadistically. They were get the master they were put on you're, but the horror stories that I've heard like the sleeping room and many of the other stories at, and I do list of books at the end of my book that people can refer to do you know is quite a lot of horrors, but in the case should be these two Darien is, to this day very grateful for what she became from going through that.

Not just for those that again this. There are skeptics of this, but it was very into Sing the collaboration or the the consistency between Stevens Account and Diane's account when you first start is this? Was there any have those stories mesh so that you Okay, I can hire you that there aren't really that consistent and Stephen Steven was three is older than Diane, so he was over in Germany. And he saw a lot of stuff in Germany that he's able to describe it. What I am at Sonic didn't, Germany remains kind of dream like when she describes it and Also, the two of them were not and we're really. Together in in the lab that most of the work that was done with kind of well, no one on one thing with the kids

it more with worked on with equipment and she only saw Steven passing at the lab and when they were large experiences like a group hypnosis. And also spoken Steven there had has a different way of seeing things he's very he never dissociated in his life. He Very like a engineer like a boy he's all boy is like an engineer in very practical: we're we're not, as he had a mission and even as a little boy to get to stop his father and he, compiled evidence and he compiled dossiers and Diane with which we we dragged into all this and Diane is very imaginative. Is this so Youtube. So

even though they could both be in the same scene. They would experience it differently. When us, the the father tried to kill Diane, she manifested a spirit we'll being that comforted? Her, of course, do when did not? Let's talk about some of the events that the Diane and even witnessed and then later we're report, the various authorities and were believed. Let's talk about one particular case. Well, let's talk about some of the first cases where they notice stench in the home, and then they are in curious and inquisitive children that didn't sell, the father already at that point. What did they see and experience and then what is the mother's reaction.

Yeah, the mother is a real curious character. Knows he's always got to be one in the mix that performs those functions that the mall it's very important and the whole overall dynamic. So they are the way for the time being out and he's just not there, and so there, the rest of them were there and they, you know, there's a single. It's under the house must be captain so mom and in Dari and and and the other standard outside to where the signal you get under there Steven you go, go get it so Steven crawls under the air he's the only boy. You know and so they guarantee comes out on no eight did you get it and he said no is it is not a cat, and so we have what what do you mean he's heard of it? It is so warm, and so how do you know what you said there are touched lag and it was shaved.

So so the mother is is incredulous, but split, so they had to get that thing out of there. So eventually dad came home and then he had to get it out and everybody was put into this. In other words, mom always had an alternative version, you're just had a dream. You read it in a book to encourage anything to deflect how the idea that this is something that actually happened to you, then the other part of that dynamic. Why but he had her blackmailed and for well. He had insurance policies on all those children and anytime. She would talk about over how broke they were, she would leave or any it cause any trouble at all. He would literally pull them out and brandished them in her face and say: well I guess it's time the cash in one of these policies. Yeah the

she she and she was so browbeat now and assuming that subservient role to the dark that mail, but she did no openness and her ability to survive as an independent person. She was convinced that high it's detached hello, hi. What are live and all she knew how to do is be his woman and they tell red bag heard of weeds and everything- and it is a great deal of the book- is the interactions between the children, what they would say what she would say will work out the details of that exactly portray that personality for you and you will see the and Kevin again covering up for the father and brushing out the children. Then getting desperate thing just shut up just shut up, and, and so it goes, oh shit up until she died in

he remained living there with that with her, you talk about some of these psychological terror that he inflicted on his family, russian roulette game where with one bullet in the chamber and you shoot diana- she dies, everyone else lives, so he did that sort of insane pick t the lesser of two. I guess evils for you to feel this person will kill your family today about this book is psychological, because it's not just the crimes that were committed or they had come before the bar. It's the whole picture- and I mentioned before how he had killed, that he'd taken children to disinter these five soldiers and when he active men to the transport, he was

commenting. Air look at him crammed in there just like sardines, then, when he got home he pulled out a you know. A can of sardines anyway, eat it and look at and at Diane and he'd say sardines. He picked just like sardines, and to use that to keep the children continually intimidated. He had goals, he had a goal to use our children to deflect suspicion a machine to get a victim to come along and that is something that Lucas and Toole did. They use the children, Becky and Frank that way to get people to trust them to give

access and needed that he also wanted to terrorize them and for thirdly, he kept trying to turn them into his apprentices. Specifically even but Steven is a pugnacious Matias. I don't care, he must have been that way when he was exactly born because it just didn't ever work and need private, his father, and he would just resist him in CALL Tim and so forth, but his father continued to try to teach them how to get away with murder, how to dispose of a corpse and and the children were horrified at the very idea. Yeah. You also talk about not only was the mother incredulous to what the children said about their father when the father used them as tools to be

able to rape, sodomize, n murder, but also, that. The mother was employed. You talk about this incident, maybe can discuss it where they put up a rose where they had their car stopped. It put up the hood and a wealthy. Then stopped and the mother was a pro This tell us about that. Choose used to lure someone to stop me and then again. That was just completely no point in that murder and I included that, because it was well described and complete it with some fragmentary, but it just did serve to illustrate that, and the other purpose is also always to intimidate the mother and children to say. If I can do this to them, I can do it to you. And does that's what he did with her with Diane's precious toy? If I

quickly, like dinner, jacked off, they often asked me to generalize from all of my research and things I've learned and any contribution. I've noticed that was new and I wanted to say that in many cases. Those who turn out to be serial killers have had someone to deliberately victimize their beloved pet or Tori at them and specifically do it as a way to terrorize them and his aides to impress upon them what can be done to them. I can't tell you how many cases have been on we're we're totally interviewing someone and they just go on and on about the crimes that terrible things it down, but when it comes to what was done with them, they break down. They can't even talk about it, and these are very profound experiences and that's what dad did he had her Teddy bear and because

they told on him down at the school and the Who brought in the priest- and they told the priest, the priest went to the army and cold are, and the army came to him and he said I'm going to kill you for what you've done. I'm going to burn out your eyes for what you seen, I'm going to burn out your tongue for what you said and he started with the Teddy bear. You see that's important if I'm doing a case study that all this be put on the record. That this kind of victimization of our of a Tori or a pet is something that has jumped right out at me in case after case after case.

And sure enough, when she saw her her pet being victimized he was put in, but not in the Far EAST burning or patent it. She and Stephen went into action. He grabbed the audience had it removed, but with her hair back and went out to her with a red hot poker from the fire to jab in the eye. Stevens kicked him and threw him off balance And it only burned her in the neck, and she carry this hideous guard. To this day of the turn to her neck when they took her mother finally took her into the doctors to oh, she spilled the some hot coffee on herself and then doctor didn't believe this so well iron, so on her ok anything to protect the father as soon as she came and did, Diane was left unconscious. He was hit on the head with a shovel and knocked unconscious and a covered over with leaves when she

became aware of over twelve hours later, she said that, though the woods had taken care of me and she was still alive and she came home, half dead and bloody, and what did mother scream your dad's going to be so mad at you, staying out all night like that, scaring him yeah very odd. You also talk about some of the p pull that look like it's promising that the children can. Go to them, tell them the truth, and they might be helped and that's why they went to these people and tried to speak to them and there's a couple characters and maybe could talk about ankh Magda and also then Gramma and then when? Finally, they get to tell somebody at at school about this, Well, at school is the one I just told you when they

little bit when I say the nuns that was at school. The number that they told told the priest. He told the Army and army told dad and dad tried to kill Diane. Right you got away with just that burned to her neck. Now we go back to magnet. I was a fascinating and charming. Enterlude really in Magda evidently is the older sister of Sylvester. She knew him in the old country She knew his ways. She didn't estimate all. Evidently, from time to time, you had to come swinging around the good part of the family trying to get some advantage on, but it came a time there where the dress Diana happen in, of course, Steven slicked his hair back and took the children to go visit aunt Magda. They wanted money he, you know it squandered what he had so magnet turned out to be just a wonderful character and she did take Diane

side and she inspired her so much and gave her so much hope of that. There was alive and that she was somebody. And she noticed a Diane had the two Different colored eyes- and she said that's in our family and it runs with the second site, may bilitis sensitivities that you have, and you must protect that. She must not let anyone know what you love, but she gave her all kind of really good and instructions, and some good clothes for once in her life. She was able to put on some good quotes thanks to Aunt Magda. They got, they went away, went back to their usual pattern and the money that had given to the mother for safe holding. He the other covers

mother and giving it up to him not not being able to spend it on the children. You we also talk about another hopeful character. It seems very likable. Person is Uncle Frank, which is really their actual half brother, not their uncle, but regardless tell us about the uncle Frank Confer Asian and what comes of that. I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about. But what it reminds me of is when she drew the picture. What you're talking about well just see it says, call Frank and then what he had done in response. Well, I think that that developed out of her drawing the pictures, And she was supposed to draw a picture and she drew this. Man with an erect, penis and brandishing a hatchet- and that was

to be there like Christmas greeting and everything in the the alright tell her. No, no, no, that's not right. You know and uh uh can't do that and they send it to them, and it came out Through those sources somewhat of what they were going through, but of course it was not well received right so It any rate any of these other peripheral people that appear to offer hope were never able to materialize anything that actually solve the problem, we're gonna stop for a second to talk about our sponsor, which is light stream. And when we come back we'll we'll talk about the particular of Diane that ends up in a well. When do you want to start paying less on your credit card debt? How out today, with a credit card, constant

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apply and offers are subject to change without notice. Is it stream dot com for important for asian about limits on livestream loans and same day, funding stream, dot com, slash murder Now Sandra we talked about you have in your book incredible incidence of murder, rape that are that are perpetrated by Sylvester and undetected by people. It seems throughout this entire murderous event, but there are people that are suspicious, but, as I mentioned just before we went for break, there was a particular incredible story: that's important about a black boy that befriended by Diane, and then the father takes it upon himself to kill this young boy. Tell us about this

credible story so heart the story of Jim. Let me say, first of all that there was a documentary made by John Edginton that include Diane and Steven and in the making of this documentary, John Edgington put Diane through the most incredible doctor that I thought it was quite unethical may forced her to have a aberg action of this whole incident. While the cameras are rolling and then unbeknownst, reviewers the film ran out and Edgington said to hold it right there can you do that again, and that was conditions under which that was brought to the green screen- are posted that video on Youtube, but John Legend, ten,

so short of giving any credibility to what that went on here and actually contributed to my designing this book out true horror, because he felt that get that he used that term that you're going to have to find a publisher that will handle true horror in so with that said, I will tell you what happened and the story unfolds is, our still sylvestris works as a book on base and his boss is a big jolly black man and so they feel bad actress comes. Let me bring to the two kids with him to work. Then he goes off on some detail and they are there with the man and they have the most wonderful time and he shows them how to cut up

and talk the encourages them and they just have the the most wonderful heartwarming scene. Then dad comes back from. Is there and she's dying and cutting and starts giving mad men say, or she can't do that and then fearing India. They get into a bit of a discussion there between the box and took actress in which the boss, some chides him for the way he's treating his children and kind of in the very gentle and in civil way, tries to encourage him in the ways of how you can bring a child along without brow, beating them and so forth. Well then, he has his little from the air little Jimmy and Jimmy's Diane's age and a bubbling a little happy little guy, and so Jimmy and Diane become close friends, and then they have an older brother that Stevens age.

Restart start out those two and they're getting I'm great, just great and die, It's just delighted to have met this charming little boy that she enjoys so much Jimmy. Well, by the time you come to this part in the book. You know what what that means to sell best it strikes at his six soul. And he Such a hatred for the his boss and that had showed him up and D2 and how, because the Mah paying for everyone so cause them. Let's have a picnic, invite your little friend and will take him out on a picnic and tell him it's just a secret and a surprise. I does told they do and to

the little boy out and then dad gets the kids drunk and and then he storage driving around crazy and then he tells little little J media. Don't you want to drive? You said some openings lap and the little boy drives the civic side. Everything then dances. Now you've got to pay for it in the world, which is what do you mean? Have anything just a kid? This is so you know what I mean and then we proceed to viciously, raped a child dying Steven in the backseat dad and little Jimmy in the front. Where he's raping him rapes and vicious like then the kid pukes and dad throws him out of the car and toast dining even to clean him up. Second the little boy

he's just crying. You know why you doing this to me and then it gets worse and he takes them out to a remote location. Where there is a house. I grew up in Florida. We didn't have pump houses, but evidently it's a thing right. So it's like a little concrete building and I guess there's a pump in it, but call the pump house, so you take, will Jimmy out there and incarcerate him in the pump house and leave him in the children. Go! Try and sneak in there comfort him whatever dad comes back, take out to the actual well, and he puts again like with the the year with the guns with the russian roulette, and he makes Steven how to push push the little

weight down and fight with him and take a knife to him and fiber this Stevens uh. No, I don't want to I said: well, they are you going to do it to Diane he's going to put Diane down in the well, then you know, and so it always using the fatal encounter for them maximum torment and tortured is what takes him beyond the beyond the pale, from your run of the mill killer towards you're, going on with this put in a little boy down the the the well closing overtaking Diana and Steve and then bringing them back pulling the little boy's body out of the year and putting it in the trunk, putting Diane in the trunk, with the little boy corpse take your name out and undergoing more degradation,

the corpse showing demonstrating teaching, Diane and Steven how to bury him all. We won't fit and kicking his skull and viciously. And making dying, Diane, Diane's and dissociation? No, that's not Jimmy, that's not to be so. Yes, it is, he grabs her hand and forces her to rub his little. Birth hair. So she can feel it and makes her participate. In the degradation of the corpse well This is a the point is made there how he uses to children. This whole horrible story goes on afterwards with him. Taking Diana and Steven going back and visiting the boy's father and

taking him through torture and torment psychological torment about his missing son. Then the father lost his job. Been only unable to continue in dead gotta promotion. So we had another bar added, so then he would tell Diane at that. She deserved that Barker. She helped him, earn it and depth using the you know the The sardine can to trigger afterwards. He had would those little trigger mechanisms and then bring I'm out to further terrorize children to this talk about had to be put through this for that movie, you know the whole Jimmy is horrible, but that's why I chose it for the cover of the book. I experimented with the about five or six.

Different artworks and then, when the Diane saw that one with Jimmy she said bingo, that's it that's the heart of the book right yeah and we This to you say is the heart of the book is also this trigger there's this uncle Frank. It comes over and says what's wrong and then so Diane can't help herself and Steven is also want wanting to talk. So it comes up to Frank. What does Frank do and then it also slips out at grandma's house. So. More and more there's these little. You know all the way through to where they're grown up and they are happening counter with the F b r I, which it described, is very telling very telling- and that was one of my favorite parts of the book were They're trying to tell them oh serial killers, don't have families and during and eventually she jumps right over there, the desk and grabbed b, I agent, the

hi- is this. If you tell me what the serial killers of will walk you up in the trunk with the victim, you know and Stephen all over often I'm now dari- and you know I didn't, are you a big woman she's over six feet tall and whenever anything gets kind of Harry with her, she said, look don't even try it with me. I'm too big, I'm too smart and uh absolutely fearless in the but a terrific person having come through these incredible ordeals? Let's talk about another very important event in here with a military officer named Mccaffrey. And the guy that doesn't like dad in this and again we see what happens when there is even a sense that he's been to me. So tell us a little bit about this.

The capital is town roles again like its consequences, these kids trying to talk and tell and so This time. Dad takes them out to this or that firing range on on base, and then he says we're going to play baseball all you know I don't have baseball so don't have we have. Ours has a gun and he's firing in the children or dodging the gunfire, and this is how armies rain change you know and there's you know a guard tower and everything. So this is, shall we say, did not go unnoticed. So, after the little interlude where different things have

no, no, no, the kids. He gets the kids back, so they run away, get some back gets in the car and then here comes to a motorcycle, which is an officer military officer, officer. Mccaffrey, Stephen notices are on his name label and he easy. What are you doing? You know what you're doing hearing everything is there there, my kids and Sophie worth and uh at any rate, at one point, he summons higher brass, a car all comes with brass in it there's a convo station. It goes on the goes away, he's not able to to, rest him or anything. This is okay, but you know I'm aware of what you're doing and we watching you now

and so that it goes on home. Then me tells all of us to mom hi mom, you had to conspire in a you, have to go back and you have to get that book that he wrote up in it that he wrote. This has happened up in your goal. Get that book from that soldier in the story that in to report is his idea of how to deal with this now so mom take Steven and I and they go down there. She tries to seduce Mccaffrey MIKE Reese. Having none of that and let's was taking the book out. It's just a hopeless is ridiculous. So a fools errand and

so this chapter ends with her crying on the phone. I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it, you know, but it's not over a because it picks up a somewhat later with Steven and undying watching out the window during a thunderstorm and think dad dragging corpse out up the hill out to the shed well, it's a long story, but the that soldier shoe fell off and Steven Teas. That shoe can be you it later to negotiate with his father and threatened him that he has the shoe. He made the evidence ball with the issue with the id and with a car

from a a cid officer who told him he was looking into his father? He made an evidence, Bakken put Box and put all that together and buried it is a long, long, long drawn out series of consequences, dead unraveled as it as the fact of Stephen knowing about this and resisting it and so that's long sequence in the book referred to as the shoe, but it unravels because of Mccaffrey caught him in the act of trying to kill those kids. As a result, when you talk about the that Stephen knows and says to the mother. How can and if there's in its increasingly he's confronting the mother, an? How could you? How could you let this person do it

does to us, but also done to you and what is been killing people, and so the idea that he saying is that how could you possibly let this man do this and it's just a portrait of an accurate portrait of one, the component parts, away very dire social construct, there's always got to be some unlike that involved for something to go this far, someone who is complicit. And who do some some material benefit from the cooperation. Well, not to change the subject, but done Danny Rolling case. It was well documented that the

The mother was abused even when Danny rolling with in utero and the Father, not that stomach and knocked her down the stairs and continued and throughout that boy's life. It would constantly asking her please, let's leave let's leave, but she would not, and she would lead you know or make a gesture and come right back. And so I'm saying that to say that this is a component part of that dynamic they could, and you know if that person would have been able to handle it differently. It couldn't developed out. For you talk about the it's the military when you talk Mccaffrey there do seem to be. You write that there was some investigation. They were watching Stephen Griggs There is a now here's where we go off into Camp prove area, and then this is why so many people stay away.

In this kind of story, because you can't prove anything, but our also is simply offer some observations that might go towards explaining why this cannot be closed when you have a small community that has nothing and they have a big military base of the year. They have every reason in the world who are about to their president and when they have soldiers have Are involved in cases they bowed to the cid? They refer it to the military. Now, if, in fact, military, is having a secret program that there's going on there, and you know, of course that brings them a lot of money. Ann they do have operatives who are being sent out a man with dual citizenship

who came over with lift from Lithuania who's, been caught time and again, acting stupid and crazy and take people like is that you are using you work. You know we can't put in our book what the government was doing with him. These will recreational murders that were witnessed by the children, but they were using hand, and if that's the case, then, whenever any Ethan came up with his name. It would be referred to the appropriate authorities who would handle it their own way and in fact actor, that program, which evidently did man very shortly after the children were dismissed from it and both Diane and Stephen witnessed a scene they described as a stand down where Armed personnel came in and told her of the people at the lab to get out and

they took over in the accord to Diane and Steven. The program was shortly after route dismantled there on the base and then, when their father got out, he wanted to get some benefits. You know, negotiate, negotiate his benefits on leaving the military and try to contact the commander, and they said no, you know law. Angry what commander? What program there was no. Currently will not in the program, and that was how that was settled. So this leaves all the room in the world. For not only honest skeptics, but for paid opera It is who are on orders to exploit these lines of reasoning and discredit. Anyone who comes forward. Certainly you talk about later in the

book that mom is finally institutionalized with a mental breakdown, and then there is an incredible event where Diane finally fully confronts her father about murders and rapes a little bit of conflation there on the family. History, though it won't be up. One of the sisters was institutionalized. The mother did go in saying to this non compost Mendis, but did died at home in your bed. It was his sister who was put in an institution so anyway, yeah mother died and the adverse Aaron after I forget what was your question, what we talk about the Conf

station with all the lawyers, so it would be. Diane had a daughter, a little girl and she's amazed to admit that she actually took her child and came back into the home as adult, even though she's been through all this and- and she explains this as part of the effect of suppressing all those memories that they were in order to get on with life and to just keep putting one step ahead of another. It's not possible to dwell upon these dire experiences and so the mind and helpful. Ceiling that over as much as possible, But the memories did come back, beat Carlos mom there. Ride or I guess she was dying. Everybody neutral in the family just getting together, well water we're going to do now, because we've got a little brother here and then Steve

and and Diane, and a sister, all three remembered dad molesting, that little boy that the new brother They all remembered it, and so that was a moment where the the secrets had to go. And where everybody had to become galvanized because now How not going to be in the home and the father would be left there with the little boy. An at bat point the memories started coming back: So I mentioned this in detail in my analysis at the end of the book, because so many skeptics point to the locations of cases where false memories have been suborned by dishonest there, and I wanted to ensure the reader that nothing of that nature took place here right. You talk about that. Diane stop speaking to Stephen.

She was eleven and didn't smiley. They are closely now and then it throughout their whole life. These two will avoid one another, because when they look at each other stars it brings it all back and I'll just tell you that it for both of them and They they live not too far from each other. They don't see each other they don't talk, they don't want to, about this. Diane went through this ordeal in order to resolve it to put a men, it to bring it out. You know so long as you hard things. You don't know exactly what they are. You can't tell the edges of them the scope, the dimensions, the properties, the abilities, if you're hiding it and the only way that we do you come to terms will term coming to terms is like writing words and capturing it

putting it all down, putting it all out with standing questions about it going through it and then W. Darn. She is done she, so I'm done no reviews, no appearances. I don't want to talk about it anymore. And that and that's a wonderful thing, you know I respect march. You know. You don't really like, she calls it going down into the hole and she says I don't have to go down and do a whole anymore. I know what it is. It's the whole how you have a dramatic, seen in there with the FBI. How did tell us a little bit about this dramatic if, with the FBI and their conclusions and how they dismissed? All of this again, it was Stephen was so the generator of the action trying to get

this man reported and stopped, and he and had his whole, that full of material and so when they finally admitted dying in him in there they were very smirky and very dismissive, and so you know every time someone comes in with one of these big boxes. I just roll my eyes 'cause. I know that they've been to everyone else and no one else has listened to them. Either. And then they you know they tried to tell the the The simplest thing they tried to tell him is that serial killers aren't family men. You know. At any rate, they tried to dismiss the veracity and did this John Edgington did have the same net effect, although if you carefully watch it, he he isn't disproved anything and he hopes Diane and Stephen up to go to elect

So no one can say that they're lying no one can say that, crazy, but then they bring on an expert from somewhere else, who doesn't even know them who starts talking about in cases like this, and so they managed to cast versions on the sanity of the person, because this is the easiest way to get. Funding for a documentary in John Edgington had told me himself as far as all that MK ultra stuff those I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole just won't go there because it makes life too difficult but you see those kinds of editorial decisions to not go. There is what keeps his stuff going. People who may the decision. Well, I can't talk about that, even though they know it that it's a dynamic that is counted upon in

planning of these adventures that people don't want to talk about things that are disgusting and people don't want to hear about things that are incredible and people don't want to go down rabbit hole of something that's very complicated and so uh. These are what I call shields that protect a high level crime from investigation, because people automatically turn away on the own choice yeah. What was in conclusion and what was it, like speaking was Stephen and speaking with Diane, considering once you knew their ordeal, what was it,

Like what was their character just heartrending, that's all I can say is you know it just tear my heart out really and that's why I felt I had to do. The story has so much hard and tried not to do this story for many years and just so heart rending. I have to say this about. Steven Steven has a tendency to confabulate, and by that I mean a process by which a person knows about point a and about point C and they were a little vague on how they got from a to c, and then they come up with an explanation. And so there you go yep would be. You were a home than you were at work. What route did you take in? Your answer would be well. I went down main street and you'd say that, because you always go to main street it. Why are you we're going down main street? You were listening to the radio. You were thinking about your girlfriend. You were everywhere else, but you will

hey I went down main street now did Stephen. Does that and Diane has faulted him for doing that. There was there was a merry go round horse. She wanted me found merry go round horse and he said that was it. That was the one and it wasn't the one. Okay, that's an example it. It was a different one. It was a merry go round horse from another year and another place And sure enough, it was familiar sure enough. It was part of the light, but it is not the one that he said it was and that's a very simple exam confabulation, but he doesn't. If you took the eight right, even will confabulate, but he won't be so see

Diane doesn't to confabulation, should just say I don't know, but she does to associate. You talk about how some stress Stephen Griggs was found by David. Tell us just when he died in the circumstances. He died about. Their own nutrition died at home. Malnutrition, well, we can construe that is him being in control of his life to the very end and by God. If he didn't want to eat, he would need I guess or, if wanted, to eat junk ed. So they Would be no near to care for him and he died, who found him I'm sorry, I don't know or if I did know forgotten. I thought David had found him

his brother? I mean I mean the young son, the youngest son. Well, I guess he did because he was living with them. It wasn't dying or Steve, and I know that it probably was the brother because he was living there. And the one sister, the one that was not hospitalized she went, is interviewed in the John Legend to film and she gave very persuasive testimony consistent with the father being exactly what Scientist even it reported that he took Diana Steven off away from the others, and to her as a kid. She always thought that meant they were special. And then another time, and he she told one of her friends He was a russian and he liked the beat her to death. She heard her mother screaming you're, going to kill her you're going to kill her, and she did believe that he was going to kill her and he did believe that he could and would kill her. In two,

We I I also had testimony from two individuals who news even in the program and no one is come forward. That remembers encountering Diane, but two people were member Steven and one woman who had not read the book disk this scene, almost just like the with Diane the business about who will you kill and in the book what happens with this, is Steven jumps in and defends the char, the soldiers and interferes with, and this woman came forward to say that he did that for her and she called it. She said that he saved her life when she being traumatized at the hands of the M ultra operatives. That Steven came for,

and saved her life another you're over member teeing him up there in Canada at the Brompton state up, there were a Un Maccameron was doing his work. At Mcgill University. She saw just there and Steve told her. You had your little puppy with you here here there was blowing. You know so I'm you can't just come pleat, say well, you can't prove it, so it can't be true. Another thing I'd like to comment on is usually when people diss believe something that can't be proven. They say they just want attention and I want you to know that that kind of attention that you get from this kind of a of a story is Parham all. It could include that okay,

and it is not welcoming by anyone. No one welcomes. I have a story. No one gives you any kind of sympathy or nine kindness and much less, you know money and fame. No, you don't get that from this kind of Laurie. So the enough with the attention thing. You don't want to kind of attention? No, what's evident in this story to and and again again sort of be part of this book is that Diane, and Steven, despite their treatments in the program and by the atrocious of as Father and all of this all the people authorities they went to without them being believed. These two people, are especially brave. Individual Steven very I tell Steven all the time he's my hero

Diane commented that I was asked. But something about what she learned, what they taught in the program, and she said you know it wasn't like they taught it. She's like it was in this and they brought it out in us and is that for once in my life, someone believed that I could be somebody. Someone believed that I could do things and Diane had manifested some. Shall we say unusual abilities and up on those occasions Steven would, I don't think they were in the book. Even Steven would always tell her, don't let them know you can do that, but Diane was always bursting with pride. She just wanted to do more. She just wanted to achieve, and for for potential to come out. Steven was always cautioning her you.

Why do you always want to get everything right? Why do you always want to be the strongest and the best pieces they just? They just want to get you for that. You gotta, stop you can't. Let them see what you can do And Course Steven was right, but that that's the different kids and their personalities the way. I think that the program probably saved Diane and transform into the powerful woman. She is today she's all day, minister and she serves so. She had married a surfer. She go surfing every day, she's in her 50s and supremely fit leaf. It rides horses, she has somebody to love yeah yeah. It is a a we a bright spot in this. Very very, very dark story. I want thank you very much for coming on,

I'm talking about good little soldiers, a memoir of true horror song, London. Can you tell us about mentioned that the video can you tell us where people might find more information about this fascinating story and more, your other work, all right as I did go to good little soldiers, dot com, because I have posted the links there to first of all some exerts from the book and you get the text and you also get Diane reading from the beginning of the book, and then you have my afterward, where I talk directly to the audience about these issues. And you also have the links to the the video John Edgington. Video are our father, the serial killer, as well as a video I posted of an interview I gave on coast to coast about this book.

Our along with some visuals that are put with it. So all that you can access easily it one link which would be good little soldiers, dot, com, that sounds great or you have something about my other book. If I get squeezed in a quickie here I had to book called a knocking on Joe voices from death row. Now it came and went over in England, then I had three books published by old house in peril houses a one man operation and the year publisher is Adam Parfrey. He recently passed away and so I'm looking forward to seeing if I can bring out new editions of those books with more information about Danny rolling about Gerard John Schaefer and my encyclopedic volume, true vampires,

all three were fair house books and I hope to bring out a new and improved editions of those It's fascinating an incredible news. We look forward to getting you back on a talking about those three incredible classic books and what you are going to update those books with an ad. That will be very, very interesting. I want to thank you very much. Sondra London, good little soldiers, a memoir, two whore. It is, and fascinating, thank you very much. You have a great day for the opportunity Dan. I will be very proud to to join your roster. Thank you very much. Son, did you have a great evening all bye, bye.

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