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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker dc Kate every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author, then as a family good evening before Charles manson, there was tony costa, the serial killer of cape cod, nineteen sixty nine, the hippie scene is vibrant. In provincetown massachusetts, long, hair, teenagers roam the streets, strumming guitars and preaching about peace and love, and tony costa is at the center of it all too

and group of smitten young women. He is known as sire the leader of their counterculture movement, the charming man who speaks eloquently and hands out hallucinogenic drugs like candy up uneath is benign persona lies a twisted and an uncontrollable rage that threatens to break loose at any moment tony causes the most dangerous man on cape cod and no one crosses his path is safe when young women begin to disappear. Casas, natural charisma and good looks initially protect him from suspicion, but, as the bodies are discovered, the police, close in on him as their key suspect. Meanwhile, local writers, Kurt Vonnegut and norman mailer are locked in a desperate race to secure their legacies as literary icons and they both set their sights. tony costa and the drug soaked hippie culture that he embodies as their next promising subject. King independent investigations that stoke the competitive fires between two of the greatest american writers, immersive, unfeeling,

king and shocking Hell town, is a landmark true. Crime narrative it transports us back to the turbulent late. Nineteenth sixties reveals the secrets of an authority a serial killer and schools. The threads connecting castor finally get in mailer. In this He sighed city they played host a horse, unlike any ever seen before the book to refute bring the ceiling is hell town, the untold story of a serial killer on cape cod, with my special gas journalists and other casey sherman welcome to the pro bam and thank you very much for this interview. Casey sherman. Thank you for having me down bridgette. Thank you so much. This is a incredible book. Let's get right to it, you talk about her Vonnegut Edi Vonnegut and you open the book with talking about the hippies were taking over the tip of cape

cod tell us what was happening in nineteen. Seventy four and you talk about his parole hearing and the book that tony castor completed resurrection, and then we get into Kurt Vonnegut. was doing at that time and his daughter edi vonnegut tell us about that sure so so damned the prologue you're talking about is twenty costa. The serial killer behind bars and nineteen. Seventy four and walpole state prison in massachusetts- and he is working on, is unpublished manuscripts. It was a manuscript that I got access to as part of my research for this book and a nineteen seven before twenty caused. That takes his fate in his own hands and I would spoil it for them peter, but we propel the story from there and then we go back to you mentioned the setting, which is one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine and it's really a year of

getting in america. The summer of love is a distant memory and overshadowed by the assassination of martin luther king, Robert F Kennedy. We've got a ray in war in vietnam and the bloody violence of the nineteen sixty eight democratic national convention in Chicago now woven into the historical landscape of Hell town. We have richard Nixon in operation, chap acquitted, the moon landing and, finally, the man's and murder. Now the characters in my book, Hell town, have both direct and cans gentle connections. With all of these major events, I look at the two thousand twenty two, the same way that I looked at night in sixty nine, because there has been a huge cultural and political shift in our country. We're living in a very dangerous time right now were dark is his overshadowing white list.

Talk about sidney, monson and and say very much like Iti Vonnegut. She was a young woman and she is from east him. Tell us what happened with sidney. Monson sure you know. Let me go back a little bit darker little bit about my career as an investigative journalist that I've been working in that space for twenty five years and I've covered more than shit the and you would this case. I had access to more than two thousand documents: crime, scene, photos and autopsy reports of the case. In my opinion, this is the worst serial killer case since jack? The Ripper was talking of women in these london back an eighth eighteen aviate, yes, harm as a crime or foreigner you now looking at this. Looking at these young victims, your mentioned the killer himself, a charismatic serial killer, name, tony costa, who was handsome well read area children and could lower these beautiful

all young women into very troubling and often deadly situations. The amendment was a young woman. Recently graduated the local I school at the new and other chip of cape cod. He's here is on the island of cape cod, leading up to the first, which is ultimately problems down and sydney becomes captivated by this. You know young, like messiah and falls under his spell and put your defenses down and it ultimately leads to or death, but tony foster was doing with his victims. Was he with luring them into. You know: dark area wooded areas in truro problems provincetown getting their guards down over Where were the drugs, he was supplying them more of a hallucinogenic that he had given them previously and he was shooting that he was stabbing them It was dismembering their bodies and burying them in shallow graves. Now

and thousand nine sixty nine when these women start to go missing in probably start on another. Please don't take it seriously, because problems found at that time was kind of a transient community people came and went especially those you know, adhering to the heavy culture and the police justice sidney minds, and in these other women who had just pulled upstate and a caravan whether it was to haight ashbury in san francisco or to greenwich village in new york city. They didn't know that these women were buried in shallow graves, a few feet away from the police station. Basically, the police had a relationship with tony costa. What was that tonic ass, those a broken form and allowed tony castor to embed himself with the problems and police department, which was not that big in our immediate at a handful of police officers covering it,

only about a mile and a half in terms of territory, but in the summer time that community balloons to you know well over five to ten thousand residents and at a salon, found a cover and they use the total cost of the game and information about tony gospels rivals in the drug trade which allowed protocols to them the serial killer together took out a pick off is competition, but when he begins to who above all and starts to murder. These women had also allows him to keep tabs on the investigators themselves, because you always thought then that he was smarter than the police that were committed to catching. It ultimately was now while police are looking and sydney sister Linda, is looking for her along with her boyfriend Roland Susan perry, goes missing, tell us out police proceed with

these disappearances well again, nay. They didn't realize at the time that these young women were missing and I took it well over a year before the boys finally took these disappearances seriously. Susan Perry had fallen in love with a serial killer. Much like said demand in a minute, ended with her with her death. I once again dismembering the body and bearing her in a shallow grave. One of the investigators that I interviewed for this book was a former state trooper named Tom, gunnery and thomas convinced that he pulled over tony costa on route leading to province down just actors. Susan perry had gone missing, He believes that susan perry was probably dismembered and in the in the back of tony classed as car had he opened it prompt and realise that are or discovered it at the time you know here other young woman wouldn't have been killed, but unfortunately, there were now tell us about the his appearance at this guest house of patricia moore.

how he gets there and the interaction with her chair, tony castor, was a handymen province down butter. Again, you know you look at him is. Is psychology is pretty unique? He is the living a pity me I'll norman bates incited tony caused. Her was amateur taxidermy who would basically been forced to move too bright. Sound a live with relatives because he had tied up in sexually assaulted, a young woman in his home town, a town of some of your massachusetts. While he was a teenager, he was also disappearing. Local patch killing them and performing his tax. Again, you know undressed. The you know the human body in a way that would ultimately help him perform his duties as a serial killer much later in his life. He also had tremendous mother issues

dwell day in which maybe one of his motivations. He had a love hate relationship with his mother that, ultimately, I think he projected onto his victims, primarily marianne. Why saki and patricia watch two professionals? One was a teacher. One was a college student who had decided to leave their home in providence, rhode island just for a brief getaway, provincetown massachusetts in the cold winter of nineteen sixty nine and they find lodging at a rooming house at five standard street in and suddenly they me again, a very charismatic logic named tony constantly will offers to show them around town and provides them some advice on where to go on a cold, desolate night and province down it down. They quickly fall under his fell and over the course of twenty four hours he lords them into their web into his

I should say- and it's the last time either of them are ever seen a lot now with the landlady. She discovers something the next day. Specifically a note tell us about that note and it's gotcha as well. The note was written by the serial killer, Johnny costa, to the two young women I just mentioned, and he was asking them for a ride, a trick twirl, which is the next town over because tony costa, never vehicle. And again, you know he was pleasant. Young man very unassuming very charismatic, certainly somebody that wasn't. Threatening and these women provided him assistance and Ultimately they let their guards down and he took them on last right of their lives to a nation cemetery in rural and ultimately to his killing fields where he shut

How can this member their bodies and buried them and shallow grapes now people that are looking for the did, the two people, the teacher, was marianne Masaccio, pat walsh. There is a stolen or there is a missing visa. You, a blue volkswagen. So what happens with this vote wagon its body, but it spotted again tell us about this problem it it's basically the doktor so that walsh on a nineteen sixty eight blue vw beetle and she drove tony costa. Andrew friend, marian saki too true and twenty costa murdered these women. As I said in very heinous ways, now going back to the stand again, I can't I can't stress this and now You know viewing the crime scene in the autopsy photos of these. Were these women

purchase stabbed it. Look like they've, been mauled by a great white shark, that you were frenzied cuts to their bodies and there were organs taken out of the all of the victims, whether it was their breasts or their uteruses. You know. Basically, tony kosta was consuming their womanhood. If you will, while he was so he commits these heinous atrocities dairies these women and then he's to get rid of of the other meaning the volkswagen beetle, leaves it deserted internal. Ultimately, it's its spotted by a passer by and I won the passerby by local law enforcement, because it was in an area that was unusual and it sparked you know, suspicion right away, but when

local authorities went back to retrieve the vehicle. The vehicle was gone and that's because the serial killer had taken the car and and drove it out of town, actually drove it out of state, and this begins Dan, a very interesting cat mouse game that the serial killer plays with investigators. Oftentimes serial killers like this will shy away. fade from the spotlight, while hide in the shadows. We've seen that time and time again, tony cause is much different again. He thought he could outwit the investigators, so he took them off and let the investigators on a bit of a wild goose chase over several weeks there is a person named steve, grand and the person name, we'd, nickname weed and they company him to Boston and two and to his brother in law. Veni born a very so what's grant, is asking questions about this. We double. What does the council have to say to him

all you know: gonna cost that basically orders, I'm gonna, don't ask too many questions because you're not gonna like what the Hence there is ultimately twenty caused us to hippy friend was believed that people of stone- and they were absolutely right- and I have no idea that the owner that'd be a goal, yet I was buried in under you know three feet of frozen earth a few miles away. That was something they could not comprehend. They just thought. Tony costa may have hotwire the car stolen. The car and that's really where their suspicions lie, because you know going back to is cost us ability to be so charismatic, not only you know amongst women, but among man you mentioned, that he had a nickname inside of he was very manson asked.

at way worried. He had disciples that were willing to basically do anything in his name- and you mentioned these two friends that were basically in in the stolen vehicle, a vehicle that was used for for murder and maiming. You know basically going to helping johnny costa hide the evidence and don't for themselves now: how does gunnery and bernie flynn? How do these police office Third, how do they proceed with their search and where do they search first in obvious way. You know you create concentric circles around the area in which these women have gone missing. So you start with with the boarding house again they are looking for two missing women and problems down. They have not made the connection between these disappearances and the disappearances of susan parents. The disappearance of said demands. There's another victim in new york city Christine belonged to have not made any of these connections, yet there is one

think for these two missing women and, quite frankly, they believe that they are alive until they start to find. You need pieces of evidence inside the boarding house that ultimately leads them to believe that these women have been met. And you know the biggest reveal is a volkswagen beetle that turns up in burlington vermont and they are connecting tony cost up to this case, step by step and cost is confronting them at every step, denying his culpability in this in these disappearances and ultimately, these murders. It becomes a game of catch me. If you can't, you know when I got to really spent a lot of time with tom gunnery. working on this book, when I got passed on,

a long time before I decided to take this case on, but you know I had the great opportunity of reviewing all of his case now. It's his police reports interviewing is his wife who had gone through a lot of this with them, because europe, tom gunnery bernie, when they were born You know they both had dots right. I couldn't imagine there their own children, you not being put into situations like this, and it was a race against time for it. because they didn't know when tony kosta would kill again, because he certainly was capable of it and he was evolving as a serial killer. They found out about avis kosta, and so they spoke to her. What did they find out? cost and was twenty caused. His wife who I was going through a divorce with china castro at the time that this investigation really started to begin now.

It's a real, unique relationship, Tony caused married her or you don't print her when she was thirteen married her with Fourteen years old, it had a lot of very sadistic masochistic sex acts against Davis is he was evolving as a serial killer and he was also coming under the the cloud of major drug. That he had acquired while he was doing through marital troubles with avis. So are you alba person who is breaking dad and and very dangerous, and then you know, is overcome by hallucinogenic drugs and begins to create a an alter ego for himself now in psychology. They call it ego splitting row tony koster had created this alter ego to commit these these hands and that way he could compartmentalize his own purse,

I already have a kind of a fun loving, caring, hippy, like messiah, who is all into peace and love and there's jack the Ripper who was buried deep in his soul. He talk about at the at the it's time he is being harassed by police, even though this you say this cat and mouse game with police. So he is speaks to somebody, that's related to avis, actually, her uncle maurice Goldman or it ends up being bespeaks more scoldin tell us what he needs, a legal representation and it's interesting. He feels like he's being harassed by by police, because they they told him get. You need to get a good defensive turn because your story, It just doesn't add up. Meanwhile, you know the police are being harassed by did. You know, members of johnny got his bancorp his acolytes. These disciples, these you know I mean Manson, had his family, tony costa. Really it is as well, so they were trying to stymie the investigation in any way they could

Now they find a young woman that has a very, very interesting story about going out with tony costa and bow and arrow tell us about this story and what policed learn from this Well, she was the only victim attacked by johnny costa, who lived to tell the tale again, a young. You know beautiful. Adrian province down a lord to tony cost us marijuana garden, well in wellfleet and truro, and she is a shot with a bow and arrow shot by an arrow by tony cost that's an accident, even I took his bow, and arrow too are fired off in the woods, but he targeted her a shot in the back and a rookie reveal this information to investigators. Much ultimately went down. You know to that area in tomorrow, where over time they were able to discover more evidence. That word, you don't turn and missing persons case into a murder case, a murder case sunlight.

Anything that they ever ever thing tell us what they did find at this sight. While I mean they, they started to find its increases of again, if occasion, from patricia walls and marion one saki driver's licence at his car registrations, marian why psyches handle at whereas in movie tickets in it? So they know these women had I'm missing in that general area and it didn't look like they had just left the area like to tony casas and basically told investigators that these women took off and and moved elsewhere know they were. They were close by and and they were debt, so it became a recovery mission. At that point- and over time. These investigators, Bernie flanders and tom, downright primarily rebel too. identify the very spots where these men whim were were buried and they were pulling out body parts from

from the shallow graves in cross, the dark and that's when they understood that there were more victims here, because the bodies of shoes and buried in the bodies of said miles and were also buried in that area. In fact, sidney's body was buried alongside Marian my socks. Now they arrest him for larceny for car theft and how do they seed from there and and when does he told that there are warrants for his murder of for murder? for for murder, sure when, when the when the bodies of walsh and why year are revealed, that's when he is arrested for murder, and he still as this credible eager and this narcissism come. That allows him to think that he's going to get out of hand- and he continues to baffle- is offensive attorneys giving them. You know all these crazy stories about

Observers, including, as is all too reader who happened to have the same name about living teenager in problems down and johnny, classed as blaming these murders on this young man, so it would compromise the investigation or quite some time until state trooper gun finds the murder weapons which are a gun and a sharing knights. And then you know tony classes greece's is proverbial caught. If you will again, I don't want to lose sight on. You know that you writers, that our piecing However, this information, along with the investigates you mentioned earlier dan, norman mailer and Kurt Vonnegut, really my way into the story. You know my background again and a journalism. I've gone down those dark roads, dusty gated, serial killers, the first book ever wrote: was it was a personal memoir about the boston strangler case. Yes, because my arms nineteen year old mary

corbin- was the youngest and final victim of that notorious 1960s murder spray. So Dan, I grew up on cape cod. I heard about the tony cost on murderers and I never gave them too much attention because I had my own family trauma to be dealing with, and it's The cost of murders were discussed in the community, almost as a joke, and I will do that. He return. Acosta was the the boogeyman. If you will be right. Name, Jim tony cha cha and during the height of the pandemic, Just to get out of the house. I took my brother on a ride through problems that commercial street, which is normally pretty busy, just deserted and we're talking about the ghosts, real and imagine in problem stand which ultimately lead us

the discussion, tony cost, and when I went back to my writing office, I did a little research and I didn't read. I realized for the first time just how brutal these crimes were, and it was a story I wanted to tell, but I had to tell it in a different way, and I chose you know that damn literary way of telling it through the eyes of these two competing journalists and floods only on others at the time. Now we you talk about these two and credible american writers, but they were different positions in their literary careers in terms of success. Where was long ago, and where was norman mailer in terms of the books, if they were writing and where their careers were at this time sure- and that is a part of the story about buried as an airing norman mailer, had done any household name since publishing a naked and the dead in the late forties he was living in province town. He had just

run for mayor new york. He was basically the the keeper of Ernest Hemingway's claim in terms of being at this very outgoing personality, who just happened to be a very oh yeah, writer, now providing it was on the opposite spectrum. He was living just down the road and farms. Double massachusetts were where I grew up a few miles away from province down and he'd, been working as a writer for about twenty years. Writing science fiction novels that he really couldn't so he was, he was out of money. All of his books were out of print. He was not only caring for his own children, but the children of his deceased sister who had died after she died

struggling, financially and creatively and he's working on a novel that it will ultimately be slaughterhouse by. You know what she called the big kaboom of his career, but in early one thousand, nine hundred and sixty nine, and especially one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight he's not there. Yet. So you have this rivalry between two authors. It's actually. A one sided rivalry because bomb wanted everything that norman mailer had and both of them were nibbling around the edges of this very terrifying serial, the case that was unfolding in their backyards. At the same, time. You say that you write that vonnegut the that mailer had been very, very successful, telling his war story, and they were both the infantry and in similar positions, and so Vonnegut had this moment where he realized he needed he very desperately needed to write about his own. experience in dresden, germany and slaughterhouse five

It becomes a the anti war book of jet for a generation, and I wanna get eclipses everything that norman mailer had done norman mailer and served in the pacific. Theater Vonnegut was a prisoner of war during the worst firebombing in the european theater in dresden, germany, by a lie bumps, and he had to clean up much of that city. We're talking about you know watched bodies. You know there was a zoo in Dresden that all of the animals that survived the bombing in Now we're roaming the streets, including While why that was, you know eating the charred flesh of victims, yeah, never lies in that kurt binding. It seemed or would be facing something equally as for refuge, at least in his mind. When he came back in the in the new, no dunes in the woods of cape cod? You said with the rest, there was the bristol county district attorney, Edmund denise gash of this one.

Jason about you. Do you have the pronunciation right exact when you write that he felt his political ship had come in with this case and and he'd also seen the attorney general at brook, manipulating the media and all the way to the us Senate only three years before, so he really thought that this was his tickets Unfortunately, really did you know what that brook road, the boston, strangler against all the way, He was the attorney general massachusetts at the time took over the case in a blamed all why the Boston strangler murders are on one person, never even brought that person albert de salvo to trial for it, but basically convicted de salvo in the court of public opinion and so tat the nieces is watching at brook and learning from here, and here is a case similar to the boston strangler case that add Denise contain really taken rung with. So at the knees

exaggerates some of the instances in these murders and he didn't after these murderers were. Ultimately, our barrack on their own front, but agonies begins to call twenty costa the cape cod vampire. That day, you know he starts to talk about castor, cannibalized, isabel moutans, which he didn't do it was about the only thing caused. It did not do it was vacant, but Denise looks at this he loves the attention that the case is providing em and then all of a sudden you know, senator Edward Kennedy goes off a bridge and chop a quick with young woman named Mary, jo kopechne, and that that diverts at Denise's attention to this case and really kind economy. well shakes up in in in in ruins his career, because how do you prosecute a kennedy and Kennedy country in nineteen? Sixty nine ted kennedy was probably the most powerful politician, if not in a country where, if not in the world, I should say definitely in the country. You know the the the keeper of the

flame for the vivid canada legacy and I told them to the grand jury testimony in traffic when I get it was, it was horrified, good to know that their that centre kennedy allowed a woman who was a lie to suffer king in the back seat of his day ago, while while he escaped and agonies, was put in a very difficult position. As I said, because are you? Are you prosecute somebody like that, and ultimately the case blows up in its face so would cost to eventually becomes. his redemption story is going to be going to put costa to trial and any dust

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and his incredible problem with the chappaquiddick case that he has to be prosecuting at the same time, his new best friend is Kurt Vonnegut. What does he tell Kurt Vonnegut and tell us little bit about the relationship that develops between them care. Wanna get. Is writing a and article four life magazine about the case, so there is a relationship that builds between Vonnegut Denise, because vonnegut is trying to get access for information and access to the killer himself and Denise is dangling that care and Denise's is very excited. as you know, at this time, the slaughterhouse five has now been published and current barnegat, as arising literary stock and at the knees in our users Vonnegut, as well as bonica, using Denise bore for information and

It is convinced that you know there are possibly hundreds of bodies in the in the truro woods. You know from the serum killer. Now they were never able to find. You know any more. You know cost of victims. If you will but there's a relationship. That's you know exploitive. In a way, each is in advance of another. Two are right about this case and in brusquely prestige. Now, norman mailer, like you mentioned, is, is very, very interested in this as well, but he doesn't have this connection, but what he does have is some interaction with some of the disciples of tony cost that tell us about this interaction jerk. Now I mean a young women were incredibly frightening. Much like you know, susan atkins and squeaky fromme and the man family. You had young women in provincetown that were harassing intimidating people and they certainly you know

scared. Norman mailer mailer is interesting because he's also walking the fine edge between sanity and in ultimate evil. Now, norman mailer stabbed his second wife adele with a penknife during a party in nineteen. Sixty probably should have gone to prison for at least thirty years because she almost died, but she did not testify against because they had to children. Together years later, norman mailers an experimental, fell major and gets into a fast fight. With the actor rip torn on film and anybody that goes onto youtube to watch it and it's a very vicious fistfight where mailers attacked bye, bye torn in the cameras are rolling and it says not in a stage play. This is real. so may I offer you know we called miller, always felt writing spooky arc. Andy was certainly interested in exploring the darkness within within himself, and he does so through tony costas disciples. He has a relationship with a crime reporter

on cape cod, her name was evelyn lawson and evelyn was a theater critic, trump crime reporter, which is in a completely unusual, and she was the one that kind of bring into the possibility that this was not just a lone killer at work, but could have been the work of the occult, especially at that time. You also talk about that. Then he finds out about potentially more victims, bonnie williamson and diana federer off an but also finds out about christine glad and the bathtub suicide. Tell us about that about them, and I was there was written off as an overdose, and now you know they were is christine. Gallant was like the other women very large to across the china. Gaza was with Christine gallant the night before her body ends up in about bathtub as an overdose, but the medical examiner, dr Michael barton,

is now very prominent forensic psychologist and a friend of mine? He overlooked. You know some of the bruise on her by that was the ultimate result above for violence against her committed tony caused you ve got. These are the two women who turn up missing in california in its interesting that twenty costa and Charles Manson are living in san francisco at about the same time? Yes, you know living within that happy culture. So there's a likelihood that they may have crossed paths has both were abolishing it into. You know these murderous my size now terms of the defence of tone costa. What does he say to Maurice goldman in terms of who is responsible? What what's his claim? More goes it is all too rigour, but he claims that it be no. It's a real person in problems down a young man who gives the name of an claims that the murders.

Committed by this man out their defence at the journeys want to obviously offer the insanities advance, because how could anybody in mind. Commit these types of atrocities by tony castro does not want to pursue the insanity defense. He wants to us great defense and yeah. There are many times during that investigation where you know the lawyers were almost going to quit the case because they knew that they could not legitimately represent costume and claim that these weren't the work of china cost about the work of somebody else. Tony castor was at the scene of these crimes he committed these murders. He tried to blame these murders and other people because he thought martin and everybody else, but you know not only did the prostitution see through it, but the defence attorneys debt as well and ultimately, the jurors did now imagine cape cod. Ninety six nine dan yan of these jurors are from a very idyllic place

in the united states, cape cod in other the rate of crime. There is very low compared to other places, and then they are confronted with the most atrocious You know cereal murders that I think it ever been committed in the united states and in their committed in this I dealt town that brings people from all over the world every year. Now this story is gained national and international prominence but august. Ninth, nine, in sixty nine lindore custodian and others. What happens to put this story on the back burner. Incredibly well, Charles Manson, in his family comment in the two strings of amr sites on the first against share and take the actress, roman compliance keys, wife by the way and our house guests, which included jesse, bring who was a celebrity air, stylist and abigail soldier. The errors of the old, your copy fortune and victims were burglah shot stabbed they were famous.

Which ultimately led to the manson murders being splashed on the front pages of every newspaper and magazine in the country, if not the world and taking the cost of murders off the front page and tony cost of a serial killer on cape god. Ignited, stan and wrote about the true to his attorneys, and you know why in one missive says, maybe we should have killed somebody payments because he murders ultimately get lost. It history and the manson murders are the epitome of spree killing in american. If not world history and continue to be talked about and discussed and filmed. You know fifty years after the crime, you know that a costa murders don't get up. There were lost a history until you know really the publication of of my book. How to tell us what happens at trial. Curried Devereaux that the person that ten points who is also his altered. Go testifies at at trial. I tell us some of the goings on accurate,

I am sure that the trial is basically farce. Where you have, you know well what are the cost of disciples on the stand, drugged out on the stand by the winner? I don't want to give too much, because I want people to read it in the book, but it's quite a workers and obviously going over there that the materials you know that that had to be included as exhibits in this murder weapon arrange his hand. You know you have the families of the young women came, the courtroom, which is always just my heart, goes out to the families of the video women. In reality, protocol. I I wanted to really talk about them as people, not just as statistics, not as a victim number, honor victim them before you know they had names, they had families, they had hopes their dreams, they were all all of that was stolen, from now on, one of the worst killers in world history. You say that they try to have mounted defense of some kind of dementia

the passing based on drew ls de drug use. Of course, he said I don t became that offence used and cause they got behind it, and it makes a very eloquent speech you known to the job if upon sentencing- and I'm not going to get into that, because I want people to read the book, but that was you know their their last stab. If you will add, at least you know getting some type of reduced sentence or allowing cost have to be put into a mental facility as opposed to walpole state prison, and caused the uno amazingly believed tat. He would have the opportunity to walk the streets again and and go back to problems tat, which was absolutely insane because you know you don't commit these types of murders and yet put back on the streets it or you either get buried into the mental health system or you buried under the penal system, then ultimately cost up was put into a worse prison in Massachusetts where he committed suicide. Nineteen. Seventy four that uses as an apple

new stop for a second for these messages. You talked about his suicide, but we so didn't mention that vonnegut, story, and life magazine is not. I'll received at all? So what about his idea to further write a book about this case? I think you're gonna get because vonnegut is satirist, no dot, one corporated a lot of them in on my car humor in his I'd magazine article when it wasn't well received. You know I'm cape cod on the agenda, so you know with a special problem: sound people, circle and wagons around tony costa. I think article article was fine, but they certainly didn't think so. So you don't wanna get wants to continue to correspond Gotta a face to face with the killer. She element ultimately does now back to these disciples very, very interesting. Can you tell us about very blood charity Is it in I to create composite directors in the book? Just because you I couldn't really put their names out there,

but these were women, as I said that were committing crimes and intimidating people. You know the name of tony casas and after tony cost to commit suicide, one thousand nine hundred and seventy four later, a young woman's body is discovered. Province, stand in the dunes and she is dismembered and The murderer has all the earmarks of a tony costa murder. Now constant couldn't have committed that crime. He was in walpole, The time already are already committed suicide, but you mentioned strawberry blonde. You, as the disciple involved were of cost, is who I was people ordered. This name was woman because earlier identities never been determined into the dunes of provincetown to commit murder, to appease tony costes restless and that's my theory- is as to what had happened in that case. They call that case the lady in the dunes and its ongoing mystery anti cod about hell town in europe, There's no. What this book represents to you

who and what you discovered in the writing of this tell us about that sure. You know I think I've written true crime as well, if not better than anybody. That's ever done. I have that experience in after fifteen books that have all been in a widely acclaimed. I was looking at the station at one which I was inspired by in the writing of a norman mailer, the writing of Kurt Vonnegut, even know my collaboration with James patterson. My last book was called the last days of John one and with patterson and patterson, and these other incredible authors, including ernest hemingway by the way what about real situations- and you know, lace their stories with factual scenarios, but they also frank alone fiction, wised moments to provide the connective tissue with the story, and that's what I did hear without town all of the facts of this case. Rules

real and there on the books, everything you read about China constantly added. I had to agree to reach out to me in elements again to provide a breather, but the reader, because that the material is incredibly disturbing at time, and I wanted the reader to go on a jury that end in read an incredible tale, but ultimately know that this really happened. You talk about that. You are hesitant to do this book because it took so much out of you. Writing about your aunt Mary Sullivan, a rose for Mary, that's right, you know, I've been download, been those dark corners and down those dark. please. I wasn't looking to revisit a serial killer case, but you know when people like Tom gunnery had been reaching out to me for several years, asking you to take a look at the station. I never what and then again- and I realized this story has to be told- the courage of people like me I'm gonna get you the another. It has to be revealed to the world. These women have to be talked about. Their memories have to be checked

first and unsustained sustained, and the ultimate evil of tony costa has to be also written about and explained in any way possible what norman, mailer's idea about writing. A book or how did that work out for him? What did he decide while he cherry pick all of the most crucial elements, of course, the case and principle from them into a novel called tough guys, don't dance which he published in the the nineteen eighties about? He was struggling writer who was going through alternations index know whether or not he killed the young woman and then dismembered her I refer in his narrow wanna patch and for its pretty interesting down about love block who no longer spoke of you will talk, teaching, botany alternately, but tat block on a big strain. in a field which he wrote and directed starting starring, ryan o'neal, and that was that movie was filmed on location in provincetown in the mid nineteen aids and

Mail said this was the case that him and horrified him more so than any other. is that he had read it read about or been a part of during his burial lust for his writing career. You talk about a right about confrontation. He has to do with one of the disciples. and basically saying that it it strengthened his resolve with that confrontation yeah, you know, and- and that's that's a that's the moment of the book. I just wanna, let breathe and let the reader discover, but you know, mailer was always trying to test himself in the chest. His masculinity test, his manhood- and this was wait for him to do that. You include a letter of a personal letter from Kurt Vonnegut Jr to your father. Tell us about this and why you chose to include it. What does it say? It was interesting. I mean it. You know. As I said, I grew up on cape cod. You know my uncle David eady Vonnegut. I knew the family quite well. My father was a struggling graphic artist.

nineteen seventies and he was living in hyannis. Raising two kids and he wrote Bobby get a letter asking him to look at some of his work, whether or not it was good enough to what it was straight or you don't want to Vonnegut's covered and so gone welcome back a very tough letter. Critiquing. My father's approach, saying you cannot be a success. You know working out of your male boss, on street in hyannis. You need to go to new york and york, and- and that was a letter that my father obviously didn't take very well. My family didn't take it well. I was kept a drawer in my home for decades, and when I began to explore vonnegut you know in this project. I re read that letter with fresh. I think it's a great letter because I think Vonnegut was writing to his younger self. Vonnegut had spent twenty years as a commercial failure on cape cod and he was you know, telling my father in his own way, not to repeat vonnegut mistakes. So I think it's a beautiful letter. I've got the letter,

our framed and angling, you know on the wall of my own eurobonds- didn't have to take the time to reach out to this young artists, but he did absolutely when we first mention when we first talked about this. Your book there was the book. The book plan I told you faster resurrection. Did you get a chance to read any of that? I read it all and you don't send trusting because it puts the killer scene of the crime in his own way that he writes about it settle. You know I took a lot of that information and harvested it in and used it in alter. You know the the way that these murders happened were described by the killer himself, so really for the first time the reader really gets to understand and see these murders through the eyes of the serial killer himself. I want to thank you. So much for coming on and talking about hell, town beyond old story of a serial killer on cape cod for people that might want to check out more about this said, tell us about your twitter and face

come here. They follow me on instagram at casey, Sherman writes on twitter at casey sherman, one two, three are you, confined to hell down at any bookstore any in the united states. You can order. It online at amazon or barnes and noble or target or anywhere books, are sold. I'm currently adapting the material or a limited series, and my producing partner is robert downey Jr in his company downey. So we are know working with with networks right now to find our our select partner for this project and we hope to be shooting, hopefully on location and province down some time in two thousand twenty three impressive in very exciting. Also, could you tell us about your satan sooner podcast placed sure thank you. I go on about just called saint sinners and serial killers with my oftentimes writing partner dave wedge and we take readers,

we're all of our investigations over the past twenty years, including the boston strangler, including at the hunt for whitey ball, Geraghty, elusive, mobster and asking the boston marathon bombs, which we what about and ultimately our book, became the film patriot state when mark wall burke so but ask anybody to you know, look for that. Pledge asked we're heading into our third season in september. Thank you so much casey sherman, hell town, the untold story of a serial killer on cape cod. Thank you so much for the sin of you. You have a great evening, casey sherman. Thank you. Damn thank you here's to the great american settlers, the millions of you has settled run satisfying jobs because they pay the bills. Of course, there is something else you could do if you got something to say, started pod cast with rigour for my heart and and

We sure creative freedom, maybe even earn enough money to one day. Tell your old boss, a I'm, no settler, I'm an explorer spreaker dot com, s p, e a k, e r us alone over today