Las Vegas You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, There are two parts to every crime story, how they did it and why they got caught. This book is about this second part and how it changes the way we catch serial killers.

No two stories about the capture of a serial killer on the same subject. The killers make crucial mistakes. Other times, investigators, yet lucky and the process. Profiling hunting? apprehending these predators, a shame, radically overtime particular in the field of Criminal Forensics, which is voted in the last ten to fifteen years later Oblation videos sectoral analysis, Cyber loathing and even DNA based generic Genealogy are now crucial tools and solving murders. Including the recent capture of the so called gonna stay killer this book in the new. Profiles and crime series tells a story history of forensics, through the capture stories of some of the most notorious serial killers going back almost a century. The killers include Rodney Alcoa. A serial rapist and murderers, sometimes called dating game killer for his appearance on that tv show

no one knows the exact number of his victims factor here. RO a shiver, She will the suicide you're from Zammit, Japan, dismembered nine victims and stored their bodies in his refrigerator. Alien, worn out one of the rare female serial killers she sought. Shot. Seven men and floor was turned in by an accomplice. Jeffrey d Homer the Milwaukee Cannibal Amber, your long, both identified by survivors, TED Bundy and David Berkowitz son of SAM, who both made mistakes lewd work task. Now who killed several children in Germany was caught through new methods and forensic investigation. They could distinguish human from animal blood. The book there were between the ceiling is how to catch a killer, looking in capturing the world's most notorious serial killers, but my special gas journalists and often professor Catherine Ramstein

come back to the programme and thank you so much for this interview. Catherine rambling. I think perhaps I may, as always, to tackle you and I'm appreciating the shell again. Thank you. Very much you're, always one My favorite authors, the incredible modem to crime classic books that you written over sixty books. Let's get right to this, this volcanic, catch, a killer, hunting and capturing the world's most notorious serial killers, in your ignored. You list several FBI, pro fathers,

A few names of some of these profiles in what they gave you access to them were tired. I work at them either and research projects around books. I started working with John TAT with a publication. It did the resource for most at their cases ban and We sat together. He talked to through mark all shaken oysters, call writer in that book, so right, our work and that I worked with Mark separate a book about spray killers, worry Classified retailers from countries all over the world were absolutely the most power, the most cases about any data. Based on that matter.

That boy came out in November. I worked great my I'm a book his cases. I was about to work with Regret Bob westward when he got sick Then, unfortunately, he passed away. So I didn't get to do work with him, but I intervened hammer and hear the words and handed on so sometimes I work and so tat in an cases updates wanted to pass things from the kind of research I have been doing. So that's really researching case. For them or providing box with them. You write that you analyze three hundred cases for identification and arrest details in a day

five more than a dozen distinct variables that played a key role in their capture and that's what this book is. Obviously, in that we talk about the new right, in your book. Its part, one is forever. Innovation, and you leave the matter Carpenter, the foot, bad killer, the clean cut killer, Deanna Courier Bt Kay, golden killers in that first part in part two. Its police procedure, a new list, the cannibal killer, the killer. Wound the daring game killer the slave, after the ABC killer behind ro the grudge collector, the joke and stroke killer. And your part three mistakes and calculations the Chicago. The scammer, the moon Where's murderers, the Cross country Chameleon, the classified ads rapist, the

What do you want to be? The chessboard killer, the grinder killer and Parts poor, is witness reports. The salt maker of Garrido, son of SAM. Its darker, the man eater anymore, knows them away he monster and the them other data that part five you title itself, surrender the candy man's apprentice, the coverlet killer, and the angel of death, and then your brief summary let's go to. The foot that killer in what it demonstrates Take us to November 21st twenty first nineteen, eighty three, and left her Shirt County England and when the man was fifteen years old and has a friend named Karen. Can you tell us

a little bit about the footpath killer. Ok, but first let me address the idea that a serial killer definition has evolved. It used to be from the F B. I say that I had to have murdered at least three people on three separate occasions and three location that is no longer in use. Although there are a lot of people still believe that the definition, in fact it very simply to victims and to distinctly different incidents, could still be the same location. But that's why this case

qualified assyrian murder. There were two victims to young or old, taking what they call out like a foot path or a footpath tourist. Small for the spillage is english villages and they were three years apart, but the investigators thought it was probably the same person who are killed both of them. The current be certain of that and a round the same time invested in a parenthesis. Innovation section. Rather the same time, our Japanese was doing work on the analysis and he had done some some paternity testing for people who were not wanting to prove their their parentage, and he had made a speech and the sheep there. That's the gate and the team

isolation at the footpath martyrs hard about right about newspaper and he contacted Jack Reason, hats, now. Would you be interested in doing this and some murder cases and gap that that thought about that, but he was a virtue to test his procedure on those cases now they have a suspect in custody who has the best to one of the crimes, but not the other submitted here. Samples to generally and yet the came back. So, while the Good NEWS is that it is the same guy for both the bad news, is that the guy compressed adoption, firstly, a marathon duration- and it was the first dna dragnet because they began taking blood samples from

on all the men of a certain age, men and boys of the third age from the villages and drew near by areas looking for the first time- and this is obviously there The procedure at that time they had turned out. It was a guy called judged to have someone else who take the test for him, but that person started talking to. The people at home and gather, have power and was overheard police evidence. The information about targets for again and attend to accuse, so it changed investigation forever around the world Then he quickly because DNA was an amazing you're gonna go uncontested of course depends Attorneys immediately found all kinds of issues with the collection ever that climate Change

some of the claim made from the statistical analyses, they were right, but it still is the most tested, the most rigorous I told that we currently have for crime investigation is DNA is left had seen. Certainly not all crimes will have a common misperception like a data bank, all, why don't you just your dna and everything else that we don't have it change? Everything observe that obviously a case I would have wanted in the forensics. Innovation sections and another one in there and proceed with the weapons Genealogy, alright right, a idea, type of testing, because the golden state killer, I've got a lot of press was identified this. What is your backs? A new anyway?

that girl out at the kinds of things they turned the DNA attack the years they keep. They keep perfecting as they keep changing some of the way. The approach it they can get increasingly smaller samples to now we have touched dna and back and let Pittsburgh days over half what you had to have a sample around the sizeable. He goes a little, but now obviously were much more sophisticated but at the same time the potential for correction samples. Hi, my fire that used to be because if you have touched here, you know that so many people the carpet, Hence we handle example could potentially attach the same area where a killer always has tat, so it there still are complications with. Another hundred percent should prove method.

It certainly better than anything else. We hand, certainly In your second part, with police procedure, you have that Annabelle killer the killer clam, which is John Wake Gacy. Of course him right. The appeal of the dead. The data game killer. And the slave master rub Robinson people familiar with some stories, but the another one is little bit less familiar for everyone. I think as the ABC killer, tell us a little bit about pretoria Johannesburg in July in October. Ninety ninety four and what you ve from this story. What this story be secured demonstrates the add anything tell her that I feel is shocking. One in terms of the way the bodies were found, became,

in a way, typically think about serial killers. Having said dumping bodies are waiting, in a house or something like that, but in in South Africa is parties were all the locks of bodies were dumped in the same place, but it was in red, different area, the innovation there was really are the police procedure. There was really the user of behavioral profiling analysis to make me the linkages, It turns out that they have really are a lot of serial killers around this but you were times had several. And what was a really good one who ended up not being the guy, but he was a logic, would stay and even his own profession would say but he was a person, but he wasn't. It turned out I'd, be a man they most. That's all

oh, really had perfected this way ass. He knew that that there are a lot of young women, we're looking for work, because it is a time of social unrest and high unemployment in writing need so he he presented himself a man who is able to get them jobs when he dressed himself. He was very now not which ordinary pick up. He presented in a way that not only did he seemed, these women to be a sort of potential future. Climate, but even now man, because he is open, lucky guy and survey, very in ITALY went with him and he would say things like I want to take. You out show you where I'm gonna be building a big check through, so they would go with him walking and

isolated places where there was a common ground he was, he could easily kill them. Adopt a body right there about the other bodies so that in a minute surprising when this matter more well. Now changed, I think, because the the number of bodies in each of these areas and pretty accessible event that isolated. So it showed you also again time with social unrest. How pleased we even investigate in many of these women disappearing and it really took a very focused, concentrated tat voice to do that. They bribery and Robert wrestler from the FBI I too found he would sort adventuring a young.

Woman who was with getting her phd, I think in and for his exact colleges, and she was- she had already been doing so profiling till she s in the break him because the mass of Undertaking He came in here. There is one of the areas where they have found these victims. They called the ABC, showing even those not that clear. Whether it actually was a b and C forbade the names of the accounts for the top sites from near so he went in and he helped her make its profile and turned out to be motives at home. But I do think I'm worried that everything, just in case wait, wait kind of have this issue the media are not puckering crimes that are black sheriff

fires hispanic minorities- we tend not to put as much as it is on those Anybody on female We do on white male added Particular America. So I hear things like you know: they're, just Anderson serial killers anymore. But in fact there have been covered by the media We certainly have them about the topic throughout the coming up. In many, countries that you used to have this cancer or focused investigation, elegant record, She'll get tellers, but now that changing so it is very difficult to really say from one decade. From one country to another. When will the mouth and also in part because of the evolving definition of hysteria killer, but we certainly seabed and expand

Did we get more sophisticated technology more severe according to a prize in linking offenders were certainly seem a lot more of that. But we are everything then among minorities as well. In this case, I think, because Moses sit all was black, it teaches didn't make the news the way, I think, an international way. I think it should have. Annabelle. Sir, do you also include some poor, a fine details, a murder once apartheid ends in Africa? You have Cape Town, strangler, tortured and killed at least twenty sex workers. The Donnie Brook serial killer Kristen Mr Prodi, eighteen, and tempted eleven, more and at the numerous other before next wrangler station strangler, you say bye.

Two thousand and four fifty south african serial killer, in twenty years and increase of nine hundred percent annually between one thousand nine hundred and ninety and one thousand nine hundred and ninety six. Yeah I wanted you to allocate to bring attention to that their home. There were so many and love it was due to the social conditions at the time on their I'm, not the analyse the matter of geology by people who have looked at that. I've seen the wise and violent and especially of the serious nature to date, Are you directly associated with the chain However, after apartheid, lack of policing the lack of accountability and bury its killers. It's it's astonishing. I think most is it all about

It is an interesting one, even upon its poor in other way away He operated, but I think I also wanted to bring attaching to look at this time period. It's really astonishing. How ministerial murderers for operating in this area time utterly now not apprehend for a while because they just wasn't appointing support system is there, there is actually wise, but I wanted him to be situated in it. I a logical period. They showed us not just in the trajectory stereo color, but also the social component of it I think you perfectly situated to demonstrate that nothing

I really think all tellers had something of tat in the way they develop. I mean, I think you can kind of see that I have been a choking struck killer, guys claiming over a hundred and he'll talk about how he looked around for marginalized victims, that he knew police, Jordan, investigate I very rights he'd know anybody made round from place to place very easily escaping because he knew the investigation wouldn't go onto very wrong resources. Just wouldn't be put him. King shut me like a black sea, now sex workers in some small town in Florida Louisiana, so he tapped into on condition that he thought where support.

But his ability to succeed and even though we have cooperated climbed he's making, he certainly got away a lot of murders because he looked at what was what was in his best interests. So that answer very interesting. I want a book, even though it is thirty distinctly different cases I do want to book to show their larger logical impacts, and sometimes even politics are sometimes it's about nature journalism, for example the Jack untypical case in Austria. We have an elite journalists now our reading the works he work. He was in prison for a mother and a light for life, but they were reading things that he was right in

Hers, I I don't think there were luckily I translated summit, instead the wily psychopath things, but they know their art had cheer him and the troops to you, however, call Do I get him sprung, whereupon he immediately began to murder in three different country, These include the United States on an took advantage of the fact that people oh thought, while european journalists He was hired to cover these crimes because crowd about only was he a wider does a murderer who better to cover matters even worse than someone like him, he was given an assignment, for example, to come to light Angeles and he went to the police department. So I'm writing about

sex workers here, at LOS Angeles, where would I be made, took him down and because the idea was a journalist to doing as is certainly not a serial killer and well, they were born. Austrian variety of on artists not cure psychopath and, as a result in ten more women were dead, time keeping around a lot, because I love you, but there are things that make all these cases, and how many big predators exploited condition to operate as successfully as they could. This case also really demonstrates also these the so called via they should murderers as well. As you say be rehabilitated through art, but there's been a

people rehabilitated through other things where they impress people in and seem to overlook the murder, said they were in prison. For the profound example yeah, I think cycle paths are so good Taiwan has a serial killer, their murderers or even criminals, majority or but those that are better predatory they develop what one is called, context queuing cognitive queuing, where they work specifically for those aspects of other people that they can export and they know how to do it, then the most successful ones, obviously TED Bundy and John, when gave here among those aren't, they know how to present themselves to allay suspicion too,

make it seem as if they are. I guess, bodies that example bright young provoking lost. It Psychology major. How could that be a serial killer where they can be- and I think we developed a number of the strange myths about serial killers that actually is set plan and get away with what What they do, for example, demonstrator one of the cases were police were actually out looking for a missing one that here just murdered and down. He has used and overnight camping, boyscout, camp they were he was about here. He had used that there's by

when he encountered the police officer. Who is looking for a black eye. He talked a lot about the fact that our boys Canada, and because he knew that there's no way, they're gonna, suspect him or his car, which would then incriminating, because he is a volunteer. But you know what he's not the only boys got volunteer that we had who ended up actually be. A predator Andy color. So one of the reasons I accurately the book on demonstrator wit can was too to operate as a cautionary tale of police to could not

I entered somebody's met because kellers you're very good at this use than met their package and had that sir, just a job that he was supposed to deal with partners on the whole, Boy scout persona: he would have found things that that day and he didn't because he accepted Now we have another one is that the book, but he isn't in France in no way century. He came back. He was the army, and so he always wore his some. Has regalia son, the military Junta, one please stop can often they also had only background future heaps pointed bad to talk about love,

comrade sure. Do, though, obviously I can't be a teller you're looking for because we both certain military and they thought it, and let him go that's often how predators operated they look specifically for thing they can exploit. Better dazed, in these notions of what a serial killer is and business. But we have to be aware that we can always be surprised. Because we fine serial killers in all walks of life in. Until now. So TAT S, one of the things about this is it really shows there are there they really come from a lot different backgrounds. We need to be more alert to creditors operate Thinking of that, you have a particularly interesting story that not so for me the people. I think

all the hanging pro and about one side and a deal. So the scarcely cultural context where this could even occur, which is very, very interesting in Japan as well. So can you tell us about the hanging pro? I stumbled across that because I I asked in suicide ology, that's one of the things I teach and shoot analogy with particular aspect of forensic psychology that unilateral phronsie technologies have never heard of it at this point that it is really the study, suicide methods voted and through that I found out about matches wine by you guys to different guides, hit it within this in Japan,

kind of its culture, its romance there there there's a foreign were hanging or it has everything it it's. I m sure swine we around the world. We have these places people gravitate to commit suicide like four carried out with tall buildings. Richards things like that. But there is a hanging. Forest is one of them and the third romanticism among young people and some young people, the forced the cylinder, and there were on my offering support so talk about clever. What a clever way to find to pretend that you're Goin should help them and even tell yourself with that's where they won't be allowed, which is what some of them would say,

they were looking for so said. The potential victims with post on these you chat and website. I'm looking for someone to you now going to a suicide packed with me. I want you to help me through this and to be fair. Also, Japan has set up councillors for this to go through these sites and try to talk these people out of it. It's not like earth was no regulation at all, but a governmental suicide We will find ways typically to do it, and so is both in this house One particular focus on was sure she would present themselves as yeah I'll help. You Rossi would would his cannabis air unprepossessing,

kind of didn't seem at all threatening when he would stay in touch that? I completely understand what you're going to live here for you, do you I'm willing to help you answer. He would happen, come to his house and then kill kill them there, but even in one room apartment is he really been thinking? you're very well. He had no way to really disposed to the bodies, and so he went at this member, then he kept from them. Callers refrigerators, nothing like that you and they were kind of pile up, and so he turned on in a fans what that new neighbours. Yeah, you don't look like a bad guy. What's going on in that place, smells wonder how about the body parts began to decompose and also he was.

Very careful about what he was doing at one point, a friend of one of the big transaction. Happened her and was it didn't want to die, and he carried suspicions that this whole setup So how was she disappeared? He others we have done. Some inkling of where she might disappear to answer at all the case, essentially by gradually replace, would account just because it what a nuisance, despite its while the smaller ones, horrified and this is a case in which I think the guy actually just wanted it to be over because you haven't thought it and about he was giving servers sexual thrill, other ability, to bring these women under his control on real. Overall, I just couldn't keep guy in this way. He also himself had said to, I think it's you wanted to commit suicide,

So I think he ordered her back, that kind of sensibility I was able to talk to these. Young women about he had been feeling, so he exploded that ends here that I think that one In my opinion, one of the most unique cases in the Balkans have been an area where he approached them. You're certainly certainly I know we're still in police procedure, but didn't it possible to the children, stroke killer again, you just mentioned briefly, but what this is a fascinating story and what does it? What you need lesson. Does it for a year Police and forensic investigated well, let name SAM little

yeah. Well, I note with satisfaction that damn level that one had been in the news recently, I guess over the past year. It has a way not just about fall victim to claims, but the way he was persuaded to start talking with Skype. Interesting was a Texas Rangers and had so many parallels to palm another text story. Henry being Lucas had claimed over three hundred and sixty, I think, even at one point him get up to five hundred, which was absurd and it turned out

Henry. They look at that. After these his taxes, love man had got. Nothing is confessions, included cases in bank in state and look, I said well, never Josh, I didn't kill other people and he d How could he have manipulated the officers desire to closer case to his by government. To tell him a lot of detail said that he would just send it back to ban he drew a lot of pictures of a victims to look at all kinds of newspaper reports and turned out. A major scan and a big disappointment, as the huge embarrassment to tax with law enforcement became

in the end. He was only convicted of one quarter and even that turns out was very unlikely to have been the victim of his he probably in our killed. Maybe, but certainly not anywhere near the three hundred plus that he claimed. So I thought the sand. Little case was very interesting because, again to Texas Rangers begins. You approach approaching the ranger heard about this case a thank that a conference where someone wanted to buy the violence. Violence will not, action programme that I by cap technicians had been talking about this

potential that they might have a guy who committed a number of cases which are currently involved in various state and had been caught and what is being processed and count on the Show- the Ranger decide- he had some cases, he decided to go talk to damn level and limit was saying in our view, and even the ones that he was getting convicted there. He was completely, and you re wrong. He was in a very starboard about giving up any of the details, but is this ranger away? had the right approach. He platter them. He talks that you know his art, work, etc. And little by little. You want over and low began to make these. Dr again, very like- can only be workers so that the latter red flag there,

a mother, another case of a guy confessing to dozens and dozens of murders and draw pictures of victims, summon the once he confessed to just couldn't be cooperated. There were no reports from years ago, very little- was done to do the investigations and that became again a big issue it with the police, maybe just lucky. I know jobs because they were sex workers in a black sex workers drop at eggs, and things like that that sometimes you still get the resources devoted to Bambi their high with victims babyhood themselves out into space a killer could come along very easily and disputes. Raise your transience,

hey check or whatever. It is very hard to really follow through on some of these cases. So that's that's spoiling the cops to work out that may, however, and level who had Benny boxer. Yet this huge hands and his word and take my men- tell them they're beautiful, make me feel good. And cut them off their guard and then take one of his first unjust slam. Answer them at either, not the mouth origins and tell them that and then Shut was choked. Then he's called children struck killer because he could actually them with one hand and while masturbating another, because he had been his master hand and he needed he. He had a particular. What we call a pair failure or sexual debian he made at that time.

His hands the rather than to be robbed- and this was traced back to childhood- work We would see a woman's napkin and that around him he had, that feathers for particular body parts, and that's that's what he would do you play, There again, we haven't corroborated all incidents that he had described and he opened he's ill are anonymous sure he remembered obligate. But he had quite a few drawing up. I lost track of how many but he'd make and if you drive the women he claims that warheads victims. He traveled around the country very transience, so that ultimately, its proper place There have been a few in Ohio, which is where he lived for a while they ve been a duke.

Hi allow attributed to him as well, but The investigation that continues so the point at which my book stopped, and I think I stopped writing an entity it around November last year. The point which my book stops. Obviously that's a star as I go with that case, I think anyone can look it up the sandal case and find out what was being done, because the FBI I kept. Personnel are really trying to pieces all together and I'm sure

More- has been done on ten November of last year. That is not document to get my book, but it she's a bacterial. So unusual and here's approach. Tibetans was very savvy for a guy with little education, so he'll keep bringing up. This notion that I've been asked about, my should teach about which is criminal, Intelligence first is the typical guys like you that you would better with normal IQ instruments like them. What's more intelligent than most people, you D say criminal streets Martians, while in often is called, but I think we should have an instrument called the sea iq which each state The stay out here would be criminal intelligence because I think

we'll see things like Gary Ridgeway, for example, by the Green River killer, not very bright, an idea, TAT actually quite below average, but while smart, very smart about you crime and I thank them or similar and that he he really had a way of finding victims you're going to respond to him, do how to get them to respond. And tell them that he I think she made public statements about victims. I pay now doing them. A mercy That kind of idea, but one woman who I think I am you're just gonna go faster. He met her isolation and sheep the boy- was feeling actually very good about study her life over

And he killed her soul. Similar things he had to say, like any of these treasures, is mixed with lies, self serving state and then we can talk a lot about demonstrator at that less than five years working with him on his autobiography in life What he had to say was self serving. I think we have to respect that. Because, primarily their nurse. Two are always appeared to their own advantage to offer blame the victims, coming into their web and, most of them are just. Opinion losers, who smart enough to figure out how to do it and get away with that per often long periods of time. And they also blame That seems an entity for.

Their crimes for the cereal murder that they would somehow out of their control. Yet Zambia, and this idea that and to take them all, but I think I can offer positive global battle. Some happy I killed like read out what is almost like a black out. Maybe they lose and he said the boy I'm when their actual murdering people, Raider for a very short period of time, talked about being given possessed. But that was really the influence the minister, who came to visit him, shortly after his his arrest and he that sounds good. If anything else should argue that for a while, but he quickly drop that one When I came into the picture today it like the item by that Whatever I think son of SAM also do, the hall came possess

I think that a geiger drop that one when the profile is regular has went to steer the idea. We don't buy that because I can understand. Talking that normally, but I think it's always easier, sometimes more than once the court to say there were somewhat A source of funding that is the case gave the acting at that time that love is a popular thing for these colours judges say I lost control. I don't know The government of Zimbabwe, I gave you had the elder personality hand. Later with every day was gave you had the other person our stay out of it. The way to sidestep, there's nothing, Danny Rolling, talked about german I from the access of the way.

Is it always ways to sidestep responsibility and an throw blame on some shepherd. You're all your personality or something remember me, sent it tells you that state came over me and I have no doubt frankly that it is a decisive step back. We'll make it in any way? Colleagues for supernatural, all of it to day dream now why that is to be in a dissociated date. The day dream. Our consciences allows us to do that they take it There and really lose them. Submerged themselves in death, camp lately awarded size sense. Dominating and taken away from us. The human day and even those for whom the active murder is wrong.

It's been like maybe a can had to say who murdered people can't you just an angry guy. He was angry, but he also got an erotic. From the idea that it could do this and get away with it some time the actual murder like the stroking, the joke instruct killer. That's the erotic parts time is the dominating. Sometimes it's torch train them. Sometimes it's about

sure thought and rape and murder is just to eliminate witnesses backing. That was probably the case with what gaiety, at least for some of them, so that there is always some time allotted component as very easy to take this step to stay. I was completely out of myself. It was a consolidated state because of their so fully involved in this experience. What about the night stalker. Just talking about using examples of saying someone how to control it was out of their control. His idea there too, that it is, doing this for Satan. What did you get from all the night workers position, I think we're mirrors found a hook

on which to hang what he was doing and Satan was it in part because he was reading the newspapers and that's what they were talking about. He was also again we're back to two socio cultural factors in eighteen. Eighty is was a time of high quality activity and blame us, and so we had a lively childcare centres with the so called safe work, with a huge network. All over the country which never turned out to be anything mean fully investigated. Mostly anxious allotted superstition, but there were a number it during my connected with you, you ve met

It is therefore a number of aquatic oriented types, its crimes, so the newspapers would pick up on anything bad that seem to be a public, and so he had they cheat sort of played with. That would think it was fun for him he'd. There certainly were aspects at his development that I think are crimes can for some kind of religious worship ashore and he had experience, I think, was a cousin, murderin, roman right, from then on. She certainly had dramatic aspects of his development, but I think the whole say panic aspect. He continued to his life. Had he had that you wrote to him

Presently he came back. You say you are part of the house. It is certainly not about him and were ordered to do that, but I think it was more something he attacked That is something that actually motivated him. He would leave a static symbolic in Olympic. Sometimes I think given drawn on them, but that just gave him a sense of identity. I think he started killing simply and I M, we don't even know all of his victims. I think There were few early on that. You suspect that the child that creatures be he was he was the sky blue, started killing people and then adopted a persona. Because he really light. Then they stop her image.

Of him creeping into houses at he liked the idea you're, scaring people like that, but how much of that was really say titanic warship added, a happy tat sooner than we are motivated. When you talk about part three mistakes and calculations, you have some, of course once again infamous killers like H, H, homes and Ambrady admirer Hindley in the Moors murders and the cross three Chameleon TED Bundy but when we talk about the Bundy Wanna be keys and what's in? What's why? What was the profoundest take were miscalculation that he made a kid. I thought you were,

same favorite murders, because the Sunday you haven't found with that But I do not have him extremely fascinating because he. They're still particular reason why he just started killing, but he didn't know the job that he was raised and it took them stand he was. He was calm in this kind of how to show their journey with some white depressed associations. So so he starts out that labour here. He knew pretty early when he started talking about cruelty to animals and people backed away from Hamburg, something he had to keep him when he was actually recipe for he had been to different people for twelve years. Maybe that's the span of killing on or who knows, we don't knock. He committed suicide circus. I should said spoil

At any rate, you enter a thing in that he had studied at the serial killers but in particular had a thing for TED Bundy Custom the cross country killer very mobile. Many. That Bundy had made some very clear errors and gasping, often with credit card where he left it. Breyer that helped police to home in on him that, as a good suspect in some of it, during its in Colorado and Utah cheese? That funding had made them errors and he wanted to be like one day but battles, stake, so he had no victims and actually binding claimed he didn't either. He was his only book about women colleges, paper women because you like that darling, but he took victims of opportunity that work.

Anyway. It wasn't girls with long dark, haired parts in the middle you. Look at his entire way short hair. Die on. You know, curly. He even he set out. People are talking about with that for anyway, that funding so back to him. He had no bits and type what he wanted to do was he would flies and play often rob a bank by some items I put it to intervene com they pulled buckets, could be sealed and buried and print. That is geared towards things you with you later to kill and now you spoke of a victim in some way, so he had a guy and he had been robbed a collapsible shovel thing but he knew TAT he would need

then he go away and that combat for a while. So security videos at at the store where he bought the items are at the bank. All of that would no longer be useful right and then he and I have to tell you what he said he could with Don't know that anti missile ethelbert actually happen. Go he's dead, that he would then wait for the God who make a sanitarium or a hiking travellers from Iceland ways ahead grab the first person came along till then very that and move on, and that way he would never be traced. Since you know with the effective. But the weird thing is the theory that we actually know about one with a couple in Burma time for a which he didn't realize, with TED Bundy Birthplace, just so much

Can you not fat boy had Bunbury pride when he found out? I wait till the couple in early only because he had missed Joanne his tip, I think that those rain aimed on without any just so you want to kill somebody so each other's couple and then stupidly left the newspaper item on who after which he TAT made a war against ever doing, but he did it and anyway back to Alaska where he lived here, girlfriend daughter and he took his kidnapped or young, or we demanded that the cosmic out one of these he's late night copy Stan. That is very elaborate thing where he took her bank card and again

breaking his own words. He took her bag car. He can kill her left her body and a shared orphans. Property weirdly went at a crew with his daughter for ten days, came back home body with a newspaper to make it look as if she were still alive paper open about it. And then he began to collect money. Other pullback account, but he at that point has to Arizona took money out of the bag. There eight gear and he had a rental car. That's what you do it matches cars with cash again can be traced in fault names on that, but that he made a mistake. The atm had caught a parliament, a part of it,

figure out. What kind of part was not color and the police didn't know he was switching went upstairs, but when he did do that, he kept the other again tell him if he could have the police by getting a different kind of car. He didn't do that. He ended up. I get to tat which he went to a wedding, his sisters, wedding and the taxes A lot has of car to kind of car. They found it you're able to pull I'm over again for a safer world here. I have his gun ready to hand, he could kill himself appear ever arrested, but the candles additives which rose He also had Samantha Colleague Bank Card licence, do other things that led him to the Alaska.

He had the Burlington murders. I was computer. So all of these so called mistakes that he claimed to have made, Daily Bundy was far superior to issue a kid and getting away with things now. A lot of people think he then bantered with his interrogators to night. You are making, deal and I'll kill me within Abby executed within a year that this leak out to the press. I don't want my daughter to hear about it. And I will do more so instead of saying ok, I just like you and I think it part that was because

Fifty eight took over here he Wasn'T- will be allowed to offer a deal like that, so, unfortunately, the power to the garden. If there are eight back them the problematic, gotten them and then told them up sorry, we can't do that. And I take it around the term. He wasn't giving up anymore details and finally decided just to kill himself said we have you potential eight victims out there, but I I kind of wonder are there might be a few more, but he does such a bad job with a final. I really wonder that he was so good as have the earlier ones. I don't know it could have easily been making her nose because they do a lot of serial killers wool how many more martyrs and that he done IDA no idea we doubt Now- and I think that the others then only

one other matter potentially linked to him. That looks pretty good, but not true the boy. So why do I like it? I, like him, return What are you Nick idea? Even I did poet after awhile. What do you need? I, yeah. No association with a victim, no victims, type. Will there let me now does travelling you Cash rob a bank during all these things to make sure there was no trail was buried there. Clever man unique get out of town law. This is it very unique approach. Right when you get to part for your book, witness reports, You have son of SAM. The night stalker was mentioned

The man eater Alien warn us and the Milwaukee monster. Obviously Jeffrey Dahmer, but you have a soap maker of courageous, and you have another one. I'm gonna mangle in my pronunciation, La Mancha, Jovi, Cheat when I was about the so Baker agreed yodel and what was about the witness reports. The doomed this killer is another believe me when I say that, above all the ones you didn't mention where women on sale and one which are Mexico, yet it from ITALY. Right itself maker, one of the most unique motivators about time and their ability to kill and December people with disabilities astonishing, I heard what I went into a little cry: museum wrong, and I dont know that it still open

Atomic clothes, the time they had all these amazing displays of italian crimes and there with her. Cattle, were he had cooked flesh or all the obvious, cried tool she had used. Was it at this point- and I have not heard about before that loud substantially, when I looked for cape She was a woman and a here they're not wanted her terrible relationship with them, but a sheep out you'll never be like that. He had a lot of children, but a fortune teller told her that they all would die before him was horrified her and, as a matter of fact, they begin die one after another, and she just thought you gotta figure out some way to appease the supernatural

for some reason had again for her and her son, her son said he was going to go out and Joy Mussolini's army. She thought, oh, my god, that's high risk. There's no way to buy that. I have to do something so she began to issue the cheap and she would make the key taxing soaps and candles to sell out of the shops, and that is how should help to support herself. She gathered plan that tv crew by her son, I sat another one. First, she created this. She knew about woman who, who I think it was a match. Another one was getting her appointment Another town. I think it is wrong for employment, and this is my friend, the sheet invited them to have three different an occasion.

We the people she invited them to help too, help them get ready. She light letters to everybody that you now tell them. You found a job is founded on a World bank, some other city in that you're not coming back you're happy without letters, mail them for you can't do that you that the website Robinson did the same thing. By the way later his letters are now before you and then shoe see, ban drugs. Why the tea or something we pass out, she killed them. Try the magician. Should we take up. Our wines is member than he had them.

Call the flesh top to drain the blood anti pan to bake into a hard settlement that she couldn't write down into Lauer said she bent used to make these two cakes flashy boiled down with obvious. Does she used for herself and made them into self and and candles were to send it to her son to eat Then she ate some and two thirds of the people, and even when the police came looking for this missing when she gave birth to take a witness and the third better

I saw her go in Leonardo is we inherited? She? Actually, I didn't say things that are going on in this house in that come out and now she's missing show the please investigate in pretty much further confessed because she thought she was doing the right thing by her son to shoot fully justified in doing these things in each country, It was because she thought the supernatural forces with yet another lived to preserve or sand, and it turned out. She was wrong because we spend it survive though, but he believed that, though She went on trial, a sheep really talked about what it was like to like to

oh, and this number and boil down. The sad fact is that these women, who had been her son, was really cold. You, this cold, blooded, absolutely any serial killer. You'll know that sheep completely justified it pursued financial purposes. Yeah she's she's, not my favorite female, but choose among them because so unusual? Absolutely, and what about the other case from Mexico? What what about what the interesting, because that way, female again waterborne Gaza, essentially itches along its in the book, but she for the female rasper again strong and fair

had been several witness reports after your women had been killed in the home. There have been several witness reports, one one with it as Kelly was lying addressed, but I'll, be there in again get into the whole stereotyped thing. Tat had to be a man. A man dressed with the woman wearing away sure, I'm. So that's what they were looking for and finally, of course they identified her out. I think she was he killed, someone and was seen by a person who was a border and how we view them to cope with these quickly, an end date. Gaza and then realize their error had been believed in all the time. For a man and tat she is a woman, but she was not a good one. She was pre unsuccessful. That sort of TB sport kind of thing

but she had a whole persona. That's the name and the whole thing, and she was strong states had with that man against these women. Tell them she would take them. She had backward and with another woman at first they were, they hired themselves out is made. Is cleaning services to avenge gather were taking things, but then she turned into a killer on the issue Cuba unusual, don't you as part of our five you have to self surrender and you the correct killer, an angel of death, but I thought that people might want to hear about the candy man's apprentice, witches Elmer weighing heavily this is

fascinating story of two serial killers. Can you tell us about that? Taxi, especially pleased aeroplanes, in that one, and one of them recently died recently died in prison. I actually like that story best about three in part, because I think that when can, we would now have turned himself in adding that the pressure in the circumstances. I that's an interesting case. Sex trafficking, where you had an adult trouser call. The first drew an David box. He was a teenager to help him more and he was in fact it

the Kazi man, because he made actual candy his mother had factory worker in the factory for a while, but also he Arthur did kid. Drugs and alcohol said he with that kind of candy men were buried, it kid weren't going there because they wanted, they were forced there. You picked up an import ban and taken there because he wanted them for his party and he told me that he would pay him a picture of a hundred dollars procured or something like that when it back to the car, etc, brought em away heavily for some people say: wait: Almah headway either way

Wayne Hamley as potential victims of corals farther him that's could be another a popular because he needed them not only to bring the kid, but after he thoroughly torture them on. His talk The board, a torch aboard by the way that that was the inspiration for jobs Gacy. He hoped TAT gave you read about case and he thought, while at them right sounds very effective, he had not been learnt from each other than those killer. So after the kids were thoroughly torture. Then finally murdered coral, expected handling, boasted, take the body and bury them So we have basically that we know have three basic said: one would ease the planet

one was a beach and one was about yard, and so they will be taken down the bodies in these places and then hardly got very involved in the murders to hear me. I guess he enjoyed it as well, but that one day overboard about our wanted, he said I got them to bring any girl to one day, handy broader girl because you she wanted to run away from home. He liked her. He wasn't gay, but a poor one, but he lay this global problem over and car was here so he went, he gap after them, wiped out and drugs and what they both passed out. He tie them up. One

when they woke up, they were called, is gonna, kill them and how to get there as well, so that we can be three kindly with able to persuade Cora. That did you. Let me go out help you can't tell them both to. Let me go to curb it bad they put the gun down in order to do that and heavily realized. He had the option b. Of a lifetime. Here he didn't want to kill his girlfriend, we'll have to cooperate misuse broadly like safeguarded, began, his shop had my shot. Coral, the Hamleys Jack, call killed him, and then there were three of them. Were there thinking now? What were the two Dixon,

We have called the point that men are aware that Hamley had stuck to hide He has to tell them for Canada. Then Sir, for sure he wouldn't turn away and without that kind of situation, but it turns out, then he turned in books, who was a very happy with it, and the true then showed the place where the bodies were very there's. One interesting photo is the only one of the two of them together whether on the beach watching the diverse as the true than sitting together watching them a hand.

I was much more emotional about books, never gave an interview ever what have they did and numerous one on he's still alive a pressure, but proxies that, though, and obviously call is dead, but that, as an interesting case to bring together said the only time he had read together and made him murders. Torture mark me, like horrible, tortures, young boy and also case So here I can now make time in this area of Houston, because all these boys went missing area at the top basically said is right away. There is almost no investigation and to get one

I think they ve now after twenty nine, certainly twenty eight twenty seven were found at the time another than identified I think there might be another one for sure will happen- is that many people missing from a relatively I get a couple years: territory and you're not things are going well with the early February we weren't even yet using the worst scenario. From law enforcement and serial killer when used in various textbooks in separate, not not common. These for law enforcement purposes, there were a few one, Falada, California, they take up. In fact that came, I believe, one time ahead.

Five when they dug up the twenty seventh body, the Houston marvellously setbacks, and now we ve topped up around the case in California. By statement to make europe- in other words, if there is any other victims, well tax We ve done it after a while that, but we have the one currently cases than that that's great. In California, we had the mass and murdered and I'm very few others, but not many, not many so so I guess they can be excused, were not really understanding them popular

cereal murder, but I still think bow in our trip to poverty has a chance right about this case and he passed through that because you bad handling, looked like a two bit loser. Anyone be very interesting, but forty at that time with them was so far gone in his alcoholism. Everything he probably couldn't have written a book. But while what could it then? I think another real experts today of a certain american era, but it wasn't. It could be a big you do great documentary of it spread case. Well, I think you know people are currently looking at it. In terms of maybe not specifically, but I mean they will get to the cases that have all about you know. Finally, add body makes it to the big screen. I dont think it was either the disappointing, but I

he Hollywood has recognised that there are some entry. Spickly intrinsically than TAT the stories here? with all those things that make Hollywood movies what they are are but also just the cultural com, Text at all of these things were able to happen and why you drop everything. I think they don't care. Much attention to then one large eyes, victims, make sure, Gay Syria murderer sex workers. You're, not. I thought. No Hollywood villefort They pay TED Bundy, had everything why he's passively constantly coming back? He muttered beautiful women, a lot of that he was a good looking I stood at, he has all the stuff.

Making him a watch. I don't think that's what I think it's still entrance story. How dynamic of this man who got these two teenagers matches bring boys to him but participate and torture at anyone? You see his his kit of torture instruments. Oh my god, people gave me. I thought it said: Durst, not many cases where a young man recruited for something like that. I know the. How do you gotta get to North caught case law called failure

and never let you do that. For me, there are few in Europe to date, no bad happens, but yet it is where, because this all your counting on your cock, was put this. Isn't you back your calcium that person they quiet and oftentimes ass, the very person here as the term you, Sir having the count on accomplices keeping their mouths shut? The criminals have been foolish thinking, We are counting on you in this book. Gotta catch a killer, What do you some arise out of this out of this entire project? What's that The summary, I think you would gain from this to learn from this. Well, I mean they left him back there

one to be found its. How many are caught in a good, solid police work, and forensic innovation. It isn't just some accidental Are you a wretched Randy craft? leading violation, headed body passenger Street, were both a good start. But that's not the majority of them. So I think the fact that good, strong police work on persistent officers who really think their way through these cases and really try to figure out how to do their job, don't get caught in the stereotypes

Are we really put the pressure on to care about the big? Doesn't care about their family? That's fine, bread, good police work we ve seen. So I think that, as probably be the main Then it's when you look at how costs have been caught. It often persistent far thinking innovated. He tapped it should care about what you're doing and- and I, like your story I think also the weird thing killers had done. We have to keep in mind because I'm impact Hearing or seen document script,

tv shows were the same thing over and over and over we fall into. This is ideas about story, tellers, do you think will always went from about Europeans, comes along austere, import, Baxter, practical case water Weber, thing heated, I'm also battle that the case is very poor police work on show it The lesson to be learned is that they can, because we need to understand them. We need to understand. The variation with tee the and the fact that rather there's always look to their advantage and thirdly, to figure out how it round. Always procedure, accountability, obeyed.

That we have had more than the more our media plays into the stereotypes, the more advantages we get killers. So I guess that would be a good thing. Absolutely it is also a profound examples in this book of what you called criminal intelligence. I want to thank you very much, Catherine ramble infer coming on a talking about your new book. How to catch a killer. Hunting from the world's most notorious serial killers. Only thank you very much I noted your website pleasure. Thank you. You asked me about that. Anyone, oh ok! I'm on Facebook, you can eat abandoned their problem more easily than anywhere right now I'm working on a show called murder had slipped, and I just thought that they face.

If you have a murder house were looking to cast our second season, you get him anymore. Bathing renovation, it's easy to. Finally, on Facebook, I'm very active on it. I just left their website go. Absolutely I want to thank you very much. Catherine, it's been absolute pleasure. Thank you and have a great evening light. Can I can I.