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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,. The year was one thousand nine hundred and sixty five, the Beatles Elvis Presley and the righteous brothers filled. The airwaves television shows like the adventures of Ozzie and Harriet, and the Andy Griffith show me

the innocence of life in the dusty city of Tucson Arizona, but the sun baked Desert surrounding Tucson was hiding a sinister secret. A cycle path named Charles Schmidt later, nicknamed the Pied Piper Tucson by Life magazine, would steal that innocence away, along with the lives of three beautiful teenage girls. In this, first hand account written in nineteen. Sixty seven Richard Bruns share the evolution of his friendship with Schmidt, the details of getting involved way in over his head and how he only summon the courage to blow the whistle then the deadly rampage, it shocked the nation and change this city of Tucson forever. The book you were featuring, the seasoning is, I a squealer the insider's account of the Pied Piper of Tucson murders, with my special guest journalist and author LISA S pitch. Welcome.

To the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Lisa Hi Dan Thi. Thank you for inviting me on. Thank you very much very, very interesting story. Indeed. First off we spoke earlier and tell us about the genesis of this book how it came to be that this book from nineteen sixty seven tell us was it originally published, tell us what you did, what the discovery was and how it came to be this book. I, the squealer. My father in nineteen sixty seven wrote the book. He was the star witness for the prosecution, he's the one that blew the whistle on the case and He was a friend of Schmidt and he rolled the story to clarify his side of the story because he was very involved at the time he was

years old. Didn't really know what to do with it. Once he was done writing it really was ready to move forward with his life, and so it got boxed away. Four years later, which was about ten years ago, my sisters and I were at my mother's home and we were going through old photos and my mother had us going through old boxes of school papers and art from when we were kids and my sister pulled out about. Found manuscript an my mother said. Oh that's the story. Your father wrote about the Charles Schmidt cases Well, we weren't aware that he ever wrote anything about it. We also knew very little about the cases, because it's not something that was really that. My parents talk to us about that as we were sign up, so I was very intrigued. I took it home and but right away and was really overcome with the story realized

and everything that my father had gone through and how he was so much more involved wichman and these cases than I ever knew. I really thought the way he wrote his story was was beautiful, just how he wrote and I went to him with it and you know shared with him that we have the book and my I had read it. I think he thought by now the book had completely disappeared. Forty years later, you know you assume things just get thrown out. He really just wanted it back at that time. I think he was surprised that it still like acted in surprise that I had just read it, and so I gave it back to him and more time passed. Eventually, it was brought up again an I really. My two other sisters had never gotten a chance to read the book, and so I wanted them to be able to read it, but he said at that time

he couldn't find it. He didn't know what he did with it. He may have thrown it out, and so we were pretty devastated, because this was a piece of his history that could never be retrieved again, and so but moved forward and then in two thousand and fourteen we were helping him to move and my sister found and menu script, and so he allowed me to take it back and hold on to it. And I mentioned to him again that you know you really should share your story with the world. I mean this is your side. That's never been shared before and he didn't have any interest in doing that. He didn't want to open this all back up, but then, recently, over the past couple years, the story kept coming to the surface local media. Get a few store is on the Charles Smith cases again, which kind of brought it back up and then, most recently the discovery channel did on a crime the

I do crime or crime on id. They did a story on the pied piper of to sign, and my dad was really frustrated at that eh so because they portrayed him in such an over the top way and they also, according to my dad, you know, some of the facts were just almost fabricated. There were things that they talked about. That just didn't happen, an eye. I said to him: you know again, you have the story available to share if anyone's interested in this. Your side should be out there with all the other resources and he fine we agreed. So at that point I had written my own book in twenty ten, and so I had the connections available to get it out. There's a twin, feather publishing here in Tucson, published it, it least on March 20th of this year, and so it's been an exciting process. Abs,

Julie, I'm no doubt now you you talk a little bit about Tucson at that time in the 80s in could tell us a little bit about the area that we're talking about the neighborhood or the area of Tucson we're talking about, but also your father tell us when this story goes on. What is your age of your father before we talk about how he met his and Charles Schmidt. So you mean in the 60s when he was here before this all started. Absolutely yeah, ok, so here in tousant, Tousant was not a huge sit at that point. It really would be considered sort of an old town. It wasn't very big and there wasn't a lot for kids to do. My father was thirteen. He moved out here with his family from Columbus, Ohio and so the

we're talking about there. I don't know what the actual numb people living in Tucson at that time was, but it certainly was not a big city and you know was very much if you think of an innocent town. It reminds me of you. At the beginning you know the show the Andy Griffith show. You know something like that's sort of an old dusty town where you know was very innocent and there wasn't a going on when you talk about your father at that time. What was he really like in terms of how experienced or inclined to be uh, bad guy or a good guy? What was he really like at that time? Teenager so He had met Charles Schmidt at the age of fifteen. He wasn't a real expert,

this kid now. I do know that he had. He Metro, SH, Med, Schmidt right after he gotten out of reform school and he was really sent to the reform school 'cause. He was just so unruly. He wasn't. He was just starting to get in trouble, nothing serious, but at that time you know his parents felt like that was you know the right thing to do: got sent to a reform school to just sort of get his life straightened out, and so he had a rebellious side. Definitely when he got out reform school. It was shortly after that that he met Charles Schmidt. I would say that my dad at that time was a fairly innocent and the fact that what when he was getting in trouble for was nothing that you would consider really serious, but he definitely had a rebellious side that his parents maybe hold a little bit with, and the

impression that your father had an be basically the person that people knew of Charl Schmidt was what, at that time you talk about the transformation years later, a few short years, but at that time what was he like? What was the impression that other people and young people had of him, and even parents had of Charles Schmidt, so my father was fifteen when he met Charles Schmidt, Charl Schmidt was eighteen, so This is three years older than my father. An Charles Schmidt had dropped out of school, so he was a grown man at that point, but he really still hung out with high, schoolers and teenagers. He has had a very big follow here in Tucson, Charles Smith. Did when my father met him. He came from wealthy family. He was adopted,

but it came from a very wealthy family that owned a nursing home here in town and they Charles Schmidt, pretty much every thing he wanted. He had a beautiful boy. Convertible car. He had a three hundred dollars a month allowance at that time, which is nineteen before three hundred dollars was a lie, love money, and so he had all of this money to spend and to show off and he's through parties, and he always had girls around. He was a very athletic guy. He was a gymnast in high school before he dropped out and a very successful gymnos that led to San high school into a championship, and he was a good looking guy very charismatic. He was very short. He was five three which, for you, man is is quite short, but very

looking was very piercing eyes and the girls just really were attracted to him, and there was something just very curious matic about him. Anf what my father explains? Parents really liked, Charles Schmidt too? He had this again. Very charismatic, and also parents trusted him. They kind of looked to him as a role model for the their kids and, and so it was very interesting dynamic between all of the teenagers in him. Even though he was older, they vary. Followed him and looked up to him, and so My father met him and Charles Schmidt started to befriend. Him you know I can see why my father was drawn to that friendship, because you know here's somebody who much older girls all around. You know always at parties just car, and so it was a great friend

in my dad's view, to have and hang out with you talk about that they originally met through a person. Does You call Paul G, just last name g, and that would nearly story. Five years before you talk about who Paul G was, and his earlier background, not so earlier background was Paul G involved with the police, four so Paul when he was younger, and my father met Paul at the reform school that my father was at, but Paul had been in a mountain area where people would hang out with water and stuff like that An him an another friend and I believe Paul was about the same age- is Charles Schmidt. So, at that time, when this happened, he would have been about fifteen

and him and another guy decided that they wanted to rob somebody at gunpoint. To get their money, and so they stopped a car on the road. There wasn't the other cars around and to rob this man who was driving the car. Somehow, in the midst of that the gun, my understanding is accidentally, went off and killed this man, and I don't think that they went into it intending to kill him, but they did end up killing this man, and so it was bungled robbery and ended up with murder. She was underage, and so he definitely did jail time. For it, and but that was his background Paul you have that the his character was and, like you say, Talk about in this that your father noticed this real decline in his

behavior in his character and some of the things that he admired about him weren't there. A few years later. But you talk about that Business, this nursing home, fell on bad economic times. So what happen in terms of his character and his status? When you know this allowance and all these perks are no more yes, so. Yes, they are nursing, nursing home went into foreclosure and they ended up with a different nursing home across town, but much more lower scale. Not so they were not as well off anymore, the one that Charles Smith did have at that new home that they moved into is. There was a small cottage home on the property, and so Charles Schmidt, his own house, and so

I was able to kind of throw zone parties and be his own man with his parents in the same home. So that would be the one perk he had, but he did lose all of this money and the great car that he had and Charles Med from reading. My dad's story in talking to my dad clearly was start just struggle with his his own persona and who he was. He was still so attached to this teeny world. Yet he was a grown man and instead of being able to, I guess, on into being a real man and moving on with his life, he was kind of stuck in in that's world of the teenager and I think that he had a real internal battle with who he was an and what he was going to do and how to move forward and So I really gather that from leading my dad story and talking to him that there was definitely an inter

struggle with himself trying to figure out who he was an and really started to kind of change. And evolve as he was getting older and I think just really lost you You have telling sort of story that or stories about how he is conning his mother. More and more. But after a while, his mother doesn't believe some of the stories diseases he's notorious path. Ical liar it seems he talks about the attending classes at university. Meanwhile tell what the reality was in terms of what what he's doing with his mother and what he was saying in school. What was the reality of what he was actually doing so his other agreed to pay for him to go to the University of Arizona and, and he had her convinced that he was really going to the? U of a at least for a certain amount of time. So she

gave him all of the money for books and classes, and all of this, my dad has shared with me that when Smith was enrolling, he actually had. He had paid my father a certain amount of money to go for him to the? U of a and sign up for these classes. So he paid my dad to spend the time to do this so that he could show mom. He was enrolled in all of the classes, so my dad was pretend to be Charles Schmidt and I'm getting all of that enrolled. Of course, Charles Schmidt never showed up to any of the classes and for a certain amount of time his mother was giving him money to go the school, and you know probably proud that he was going to have a clearly some point. You know it all kind, love was, you know, realized and she stopped giving him the money, but for a certain time he had her convinced he was going to school, and so he would leave to go to

all she would be giving him money, and then he and my dad would just be hanging out all day out. Restaurants are hanging out doing whatever, while she thought he was going to school. Before this as well, you notice some of the. The devolution of is, is a character in that you talk about white, lipstick and suntan pills and dying of the arm. Hair and chest hair. Tell us about little bit more about this lipstick, titty or pardon me. This behavior he's exhibiting to a friend like your father who's, who sees him quite often yeah. So, like I mentioned when he first met Charles Schmidt, he really was just kind of a charismatic good looking guy and as he started getting older, and I again, I think he was trying to figure out who he was. He really was into Elvis Presley

just started, trying to kind of look like Elvis Presley, but no really bizarre and or way he is dying, his hair black in his chest, hair black and even his eyebrows and everything he would die. He will sit under a Thundurus lamp and get really suntan and where really white, like chapstick or something on his lips, he started painting a mole on his cheek, which started out like a little pin, hole and overtime. Just kept growing, bigger and bigger until it finally was almost like a quarter four size mole on his cheek. I think one of the most unusual Things about Charles Schmidt that that everyone always writes about is beak. As he was short, he was trying to make himself taller, and so he would wear boots. That would be oversized for him and he would stuff the boots with tons of rags and whatever he could get into the boots

so that he was almost walking on like high heels or or stilts almost and we practiced walking in these boots and by doing that, he you know added, but in three and six inches to his height to make himself taller and he really was, when you see pictures of him of what he became, you can google pictures and he's he became very bizarre. I mean you can look at him in right away. You can see that he was at one I'm a good looking guy. But just when really over the top with this persona that he was creating of himself. You so talk about that. He was a real non conformist in at one time. He came and ripped up and burn the Bible in front of an in front of your pair this place in front of your father's home. So the is that behavior, that's very, very disturbing as well right,

yeah. He definitely did things that were disturbing. As far as you know, as you mentioned, he tore up a bible and burned it in front of my Father's home at that time, he He was very abusive to a cat in front of my father, which really freaked my father out 'cause. He basically picked this cat and was swinging it by its tail and hitting it against the wall, and had turned to my father and said you feel compassion. Why and just really always do I mean started really prepping the bow. Read on everything and really showing a side of himself. That was a bit frightening an and tell about what was going on in his mind. You talk about the he he's twenty three years old at this point and then he still hanging around with teenagers one thousand five hundred and fourteen, and just just a little bit older, tell us about.

Wendy and her sister and how it comes. They are that they get to know, or they know Charles Smith and your father tell us about this little group of friends, so she, Charles Schmidt, did have a group of friends that my father was not really connected to. Charles Smith. Have many more friends than my father, my father really had Charles Schmidt as a close friend, but but and a few other friendships which Richmond had many friends and he had multiple girlfriends. He had so windy and Gretchen. Actually, their friendship came later on the Merry French, who was one of his girlfriends and John Sanders. One of these friends. Those are the two do that he actually started to convince and did end up convincing tumor

with him, and so he had a group of friends that he actually was able to convince to start to really kind of suede to a dark ride with him, and so my father really wasn't necessarily a part of those friendships, but but def only there was another side cited Schmidt that he was bring some other friends get involved in things with him. You talk about the theater Vince John Saunders, and merry French in and Mary French was his girlfriend and she was quite young as well right. Fifteen years, yes, some now french with younger. Yes, no tell us about the what happens to Gretchen at at what point And then what does your father know initially and then what does he find out and how so windy, when you

Gretchen actually the first girl who ends up getting? It is actually a lean row. So Eileen Rowe is a girl that Charles Schmidt convince John Sanders, Ann Marie French to murder with him, so Schmidt had decided that he wanted to kill somebody and see what it felt like and somehow convinced these other two to do it with him, and so Joe John and Charles Schmid had four. They were looking for someone to murder a young girl and charge minute, actually created a list of possible girls to kill, and they they had decided on one of the girls on the list. Alene row Ann, so Charles Med convey text, Mary French one of his girlfriends at the time

to go to Lynn rose home and convince her to go out with them, with the impression that she was going to be going out with John Saunders, while Mary would be with Charles Schmidt. So I did convince Alene row to go out one night. They had waited for lean rose mother to go to work rose. Mother was a single mom and worked as a night nurse, and so they waited for her mom to leave for work. And then Mary French went to her window and convinced her to come out which she did and they drove out to the desert to supposedly drink beer and and ended up murdering Alene row. Mary French waited in the car, while Johnson Saunders and Charles Man walked off to the desert with her and in raping her and then murdering her by hitting her over the head with rocks or a rock.

What did they do with her body? They read the body, so they went cup and got Mary French and told her that they had killed her and then the three give them a Duggar and her body and buried all of the evidence and. Then, shortly after about six months after that is when Charles Med told my father that he had done this with Mary, French and John Sanders,. My dad, I think, believe, saved him, but at the same time didn't know what to believe with Charles Schmidt, because he was such a storyteller and he was always telling over the stories, so I think my dad at that point had seen the changes and Schmidt and probably didn't doubt that he really did this. Of course he have any real evidence, didn't know where the body was didn't know any other. You know details to

like lead somebody to a body, but he was told that they did it. So my dad had information- and now was you know, holding to that information in his mind, realizing just how. In Saint Charles Schmidt was becoming, or had become, what was the progress with police in terms of Sanders, Ann, Marie French being suspects or Charles Smith being such fixing the Eileen Road case? What were police doing? Were they looking and who were they at that diamond tooth on? There were a lot of runaways, and so a lean rose. Mother knew that something happened to a daughter and she knew that her daughter didn't run away and she was constantly trying to get the police to do more. The two sample department at that time really was really writing it off as a runaway case and

telling her you know we have this happening with all kinds of teenager she's going to come back. You know, don't you they were trying to brush it off and I'll leave. Elenes rules. Mother knew that that just wasn't the case. The police did question many of the teenagers, including Charles Schmidt, I'm not sure if they ever questioned. Mary and John, I know that they did question Charles Schmidt. They talk to pretty much everybody. You know at that might have known her and really there was nothing for to go on, and so they just kept believing that this was a run play case, an really the lean broke, his just sort of do all the way for the police department and and what kind of written off as a runaway case. Sadly,. You talk about also that at some point he starts talking their friends, your father in Schmidt or friends,.

And he starts asking him certain questions. He doesn't come out with it immediately. What are the things he starts talking to him about in terms of Gretchen and her disappearance? What does he have to or pardon me what? What does he have to say about even Alleyne role. So, as I mentioned, he did confide my father that he, he murder. I mean well, and he You know my father right, you know about times where he is, sitting in Charles Schmidt's home, and you know he's he's looking at this man that he used to be friends with look up to any starting to really fear and watching him progress and choose something very again bizarre, but he does also share that at some point, Charles Schmidt even tried to convince my father to MER

for a family with him. You know, I think, of course, didn't go anywhere in my father. You know what just constantly sort of listen to Schmidt and listen to him talk and kind of brush things off, but it was clear to my father from things that Schmidt was saying that he just was no longer the person that my father knew when he was younger and my father did realize that Charles Schmidt had pretty much you know lost his mind and- and he was afraid of him at that point- tell us about the two sisters Gretchen and when the for, If not, and then tell us what their relationship was to your Father and Charles Smith, before we, you tell us what happened to Gretchen so Gretchen. He met at a public for Charles Schmidt, mad at a public pool about six months

after Eileen Rowe row was murdered. And really felt smitten for her. She was a very beautiful one. Young girl, who also like Charles men, came from a well to do family. She had a father who was a renowned heart surgeon here in town, and so she came my family with a lot of money, and they just sort of really sell for each other. Pretty quickly just started dating each other there, is a point now windy is her younger sister, who hung out with her a lot. She was set years younger and that's who windy was so the the first sisters would be around Charles Schmidt quite often, and eventually Charles SH, decides that he's going to take Gretchen out and show her a lean rose body, or at least where the

burial is because he according to what he tell my father is he wanted to see if Gretchen would still love him, even if she knew this is who he was so he took Russia out to Elaine rose body and showed her and told her what he had done, and at that point you know, Gretchen. You know told him that she would love him, no matter what, but she started be holding that over Charles Schmidt's head, and so she really kind of trying to pull the reins in and control what Charles Schmidt was doing and making RU, rules for him and constantly telling him that if he didn't do what she wanted him to do, she was going to go to the police and she started really holding us over his head.

And that's when the dynamic between Gretchen and Charles Schmidt really started to change and it became kind of a love hate relationship at that point. Now, in all of this, at some point, Gretchen and Wendy disappear. What does your father surmise from that now with this escalating bizarre behavior and some of the things he's already said what He surmise and again what do the police do in terms of suspects, so Gretchen and Windy did disappear in August of nineteen sixty five, they went to a drive in movie and never came home, and my father did suspect that Charles Schmidt had done something, and it was a short time

after that Charles Schmidt did confide in my father that he had killed. Gretchen windy, which my dad was thinking probably did happen and but again didn't have any proof or anything. Now the police had questioned. Gretchen's family did not care for church Schmidt and they had kept trying to keep Gretchen from seeing Charles Schmidt and when she disappeared. The fritz family really did believe that Schmidt was was the culprit and why their daughters disappeared. So the police, good question Charles Schmidt, as well as all of the other teenagers, that new them and from the school and again there wasn't any anything for them to pin Charles Schmidt on these cases, and there was also a lot of speculation that they too had run away, and there were a lot of

stories that were coming out of sightings of C Gretchen, Windy and Wendy in areas. So there was still again that belief, just like with the lien well that they may have run away, so the police weren't sure what what's going on there. They definitely questioned everybody that they could there wasn't any evidence of any foul play happened till they they did find her car at a hotel, but even with the car there wasn't a lot of evidence to go off of. They did find a glitch car with her person it, which was very quick in of why the car would have been left behind. But you know, I think, when I read this, I realize all of this was happening in the 60s, where you know there wasn't things that we have now. You know, there's no dna evidence, there's no cell phone record words or computer records, and so

that time you have somebody missing and if you don't have a smoke gun and don't have you know a body, we really don't have anything to go on, and so I see where the two some police were just stuck in didn't know what happened to the girls. You talk about a very interesting situation, to that's demonstrative to your father, about Charles Schmidt and and and send your father on some strange behavior. According to other people and officials, he he the girlfriend named Kathy, but Kathy has a three of a relationship which which she is friendly, Ball Smitty. So tell us a little bit about that, and because of that relationship and because of the things that Smitty is telling your father, what does your father do in response. So, as you mention my father, there was a girl named Kathy that my father had been dating and

healthy had confided in my father, and this was I part time after Gretchen. Windy had turned up missing as well an Kathy confided in my father that something was happening at night. Somebody was mess, what's your screen and making noises outside of her window and it had her frightened I had decided that he was going to get to the bottom of this and see what was going on, and so he hung out on her ST one night kind of watching her house Ann was. I'm ready to leave. He had been there for quite some time and then saw Charles Schmid's car, coming down the road at that point. He had a a Ford Falcon sprint that he would, and so he was coming down the road and saw my father and told my father and acted as if he was looking for my father, but my dad at that point

news knew that Charles Med would now had his sights on Kathy. He was convinced that she going to be his next victim an once. He started feeling like you know, Kathy live in danger. He became really obsessed with watching over Kathy to protect her an re really. He became you know, day and night. He held a vigil in front of her home and on her street to watch over Kathy and make sure that nothing would happen to her, and he was convinced that he was the only one that was going to be able to prevent Charles Med from getting to Kathy and, of course, for Kathy's fan only an for the neighborhood, as this was very can. Turning until my dad, you know. Obviously they could see. He was obsessed with this girl. They they didn't know why he was obsessed and, and so he really became you know

to the police somebody to really watch, because he was watch over Kathy all the time, and you know it really eat up my day that I mean he just was obsessed and he admits that he became just completely absurd. Then, of course, it destroyed his relationship with Kathy and and but he was obsessed watching over her and trying to prevent Charles Schmidt from getting to her, and that became his obsession for several months. You talk about this vigil and then one night he gets a call from his friend Smitty, inviting him to APA Party. Now. Why would he go in terms of since he's guarding Kathy and then tell us a little bit about this party and what was said and what your father learned? Yes, so

it it had been quite awhile, since my dad had really been hanging out with Charles Smith. My dad was spending all of his time, trying to protect Kathy from Charles Schmid and watching over her in her home and and so one morning Charles Schmidt called my father and said he was having a party at his house and invited my father and first my father, you know turned it down, did not you, but he really how to convince my dad and after my dad you know considered it realize. Well, if he's with Charles Schmidt, then Charles Schmidt can't be you know after Kathy, so my dad really believed as long as he was with one of them at all times, then Kathy was safe, and so he did did agree to go to the party and and that night I mean that day he watched over Cappy's home, like he always did, and then at night he headed to Charles Schmidt's house for the party at you know he writes about getting there and at first with no one there and the panic that he felt

you know just feeling like he had really been had and Charles Schmid, you know trick and my father was dropped off at the party by his parents, so he didn't have a vehicle and he felt very, very concerned at that point. People did star showing up for the Party Charles Schmidt did show up for the party, but it's just it. When you read it, you realize just the panic he felt not being able to watch over her all of the time, and he was just so convinced that Charles Schmid was going to Kathy now at this party to this is an incredible develop and that Smitty arrives with some guys in suits around his. It's so he's a little bit older than everyone else, and these guys are nicely rest, and you say your father recognizes these people from the news or so who are these people and tell us about this incident?

so Joe Banano, who is was the crime boss for the the Banano crime family, which is one of the big five You know crime families in the in the United States, call Banano had moved here with his family, and so there was a lot of news, always kind of showing Joe Banano and his family, and these men showed up and my father recognize them from eh the people who showed up. He didn't recognize. It was once he was taken somewhere, so there were two people in suits with Charles Med. And Charles Smith asked my Father to come outside with him. My I went outside and charge I told him that these people are from the mafia and they want to question about Gretchen and Windy and that they wanted him to come with them, an of course that

completely frightened, my Father and Charles Schmidt convinced him that he would be safe and he would be with him, and so Charles Schmidt of my Father went in the car with these two men from Mafia who lay turned out to be job and junior, the youngest son of Joe, but not another man from the mafia. They drove them to an apartment here in town in that apartment was Salvatore, Bananal, otherwise known, bill banana? Who was the oldest son of Joe Banano, an and then Joe Battaglia and he did recognize them from the papers because they have been in the papers, and so he did realize he really was with these mafia mobsters in this apartment. That was a very frightening thing and they were questioned by them for sometime about the girls and

my father at that point, Schmidt had confided in him at that point that he had killed, Gretchen and windy. So my father knew that Schmidt had said he had killed, Gretchen and windy, but my father. Just kept denying he knew anything and just really felt like he was in quicksand at that moment, an getting deeper and deeper into do all of this, and so for my father. You know he just quickly found himself really in over his head in this whole thing did Smitty say in terms of when they asked about Gretchen and Wendy, and they said they wanted to find information out and they wanted to question these people. They also warn them. If they, you know, if they didn't, did lie at all, they would be in big trouble. What does Smitty pull out of the out of his hat terms of a plausible place where Gretchen and Wendy might have gone.

He tries to convince the the mafia that Gretchen went to California and he tells them that he actually is the one that helped Gretchen learn how to run away, and so he tell them that he's the one that told her she could go to California, where she could make her so look older and blend in, and he tells them off yeah that he even taught her. You know all the things to run away and he was sure you know he told them yeah. He was sure that her and Wendy were in California, and there was recently vacation that Gretchen and Wendy had gone to with their family and She had met a boy, though in California, and she admitted to meeting somebody in California and told Smitty about it, and somebody share that with the Mafia and tell them that she had been dating this guy and said he sure that she went there to be with him in California,

and so he just kind of kept sticking to that story, as the conversation ended with those mob people they told and that they were going to come and get him the next day and take him to California to look for the girls so I don't know if they really believed Schmidt or if they were calling his bluff, but they did come next day and they took him to. California to find Gretchen and windy. Let's use this Lisas and OPA unity. Stop for a second to talk about sponsor, Zip, recruiter, hiring every business needs great people and a better way to find them. Something better than posting your job online and just praying for the right people to see it zip recruit. I knew there was a smarter way, so they built a platform that finds the right job candidates for you. Ziprecruiter

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Ziprecruiter, dot com, slash murder, Ziprecruiter, DOT, com, slash murder, Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. We talked about this Battaglia Chartel Charles Battaglia, these mob members and Banana Joe Banano, and they some information regarding these two missing girls. They call his bluff or they believe he may even help them find her in San, Diego or somewhere in California. So what's the next thing that happens with these two mobsters and what is your father thinking about this entire thing? Knowing that the it's his friend Smitty knows a lot more, then he is saying.

I should mention that same night when they left 'cause, I mentioned they did come and take him to California, but a very Important piece of the story happened that night when they left the apartment, and so they the apartment and they were dropped off at a hamburger joint and they started talking about the meeting and what Charles was going to do if he was picked up by the Mafia and Charles Schmid. You know try to my father that the thing he was really worried about is that he had never buried, Gretchen and Windy and they were just laying out where he had left in the desert, and my father was shocked by that and said: what do you mean? You didn't even bear see them at that point. He still wasn't two percent sure they didn't run away and that he wasn't telling stories and my father decided to call his bluff at that point so that he find out the truth in my father said to him. You know I'm in the

now too, I just spent. You know that in talking to these mobsters and if you didn't really bury the girls, we need to go out, danbarry them and really his main reason at doing that is he wanted proof that the girls really have been killed and Charles Schmidt was telling the truth, and you too, unfortunately, he was telling the truth, and my father was taken out to the desert, where Charles Schmidt had buried the body. These and my father ended up in the middle of a situation where he re he was trying to help bury the two girls, and that happened that night after visiting the mob, and so at that point my father did know for sure the truth. My father did well that Charles Schmidt had done this, but he also at that point felt like he. He was now in over his head and could be into a lot of trouble

and when they left the desert that night they were unsuccessful. Well, I'm burying the bodies 'cause, the desert ground was so hard. Charles Schmidt did tell him. You're in this is deep, as I am now, and my father believed that, and my father believed that now that he, you know had been air to the site and it's seen the bodies and tried to help Schmidt bury the bodies. You know he believes that he was now too deep in this US to really go to the police himself 'cause. He thought that he could go to prison. So you know at that point: he really was lost often what the right thing to do was and he might continued his visual of Cappy's home and then Charles Schmidt was picked up by the mafia the next day and taken out to California to look for the girls. My understanding is, they all ended up getting picked up by the police on a beach walking around showing pictures of Gretchen and Windy,

and a child Schmidt was sent back home here in Tucson, and so that's what happened from that point with them. The reason the mafia was even involved in this is that Gretchen Fritz. You know I mentioned her father with a heart surgeon. He was a heart surgeon for Joe, so he Bonanno have that connection to Joe Banano and was his surgeon. And so you know the understanding is that Gretchen's father got children on involved to try and help them find his daughters and that's how the mafia got involved in all of this. Now you talk about the how things progress with your father and this information. So what happens with your father and and this information, and what does he do next.

So he doesn't do anything with the Gretchen and windy information. Now that he's been out to the bodies, he is convinced that he himself is going to be in a lot of trouble and could even go to prison, for haven't even tried to help bury the bodies and Charles Schmidt really had him, convinced that he was in it just as deep as him. Now he continued to even more deeply now he knew for sure that Charles Med had killed these girls. He he was even that much more afraid for his own life, for Kathy's life, and, what's really you know, watching, over her still and family, it was able to finally get a restraining order and an the courts. Told my father that he needed to go and live with his grandmother in Columbus Ohio for six months so that he would be all the way from Kathy

and her neighborhood and- and so that's what happen next to my father was pulled out of two San by the courts and sent to live with his grandmother, Columbus Ohio, which is when he really panics, because now he really have no control over what Charles Schmidt does and what he could do to. Cathy Ann becomes panicked. The result. What does he do to try to protect Kathy and, and how does he have this a reversal? And in this. You know there is a sort of a code, and especially young people adhere to these things he's. My friend he once was my friend: how does he grapple with some of these things and what's the turning point, And how did you turning point? You know, I think think, but he was sent to Columbus Ohio, because I you know it's hard to say where this this all would have gone. Had he not

then pulled away from the situation to really realize that the only thing left for him to do was to call the authorities, so he was only in Columbus, Ohio for a couple of days and just didn't take it anymore. Couldn't you know handle so what might happen to Kathy and felt like if he didn't do something he was going to end up killing Kathy, and so he did end up call the Tucson police and telling them what happened and they they next day came and got him and flew him back to to San, and he took them out to the bodies of Gretchen and windy to show him and- and so that's when it all really came to a head, and my father was able to finally have the courage to do what he needed to do and call the authorities. He was agonizing in the talks about that agonizing night. And then the

feeling he has after he does do the right thing: yeah he very strong release like the weight of the world, take it off of his shoulders. You know I I do realize and reading this and now understanding you know what he was personally and emotionally going through. With all of this you. He really did believe that he's single was the only one that was going to be able to protect this girl and- and you know so to finally know that he's now come out with it it's out of his hands and at that time he did believe that he was going to be in a lot of trouble and he would probably go to jail or prison for even trying to help bury the bodies, but he was ready to just you know, get this. How to and protect her, and so he felt a complete relief once once he came out with it,

You also talk about to that that he Smitty told your father to grab their shoes when the girls shoes as well and in your father. This was a sure attempt to have his fingerprints and again also he notice something. Later we find out later that sunglasses that have never wore happened to be at the at this grave site as well. Yes, so I don't know that my dad was putting it together at the time night that they went out there, but there was a time where Smitty had turned to him. They were walking away from windy, Wendy's body, and he told my father too, pull the shoe off of her foot and throw it. I don't know call my dad. You know talks about is that he didn't want to do that. But Charles Schmid seem testing him to see

if he was going to touch the shoe and he was afraid that if he didn't do in the moment, what Charles Schmidt told him to do here, they were in the desert. He already killed these two girls. He thought for sure Charles would would kill him. If he didn't he was he was told, and so he took the shoe off of her foot and through it he also had told my dad to wipe the girl shoe off, which my dad did do with his search if and then toss the handkerchief and then, as mention later, when they went back to the bodies and my dad took the police to the bodies, a pair of my add sunglasses were at the scene, and you know my dad never went out there in the day. He only went out there the one time at night with Charles Schmidt, and he didn't understand how his sunglasses could have got out there. So he really, after the fact, realize that

we believe Charles Schmidt was starting to set set it up to make him look like he could have been the murder, and so he in hindsight, realizes that this may have been all apart of Charles Schmidt's plan to pin, this on my father, which is what Charles Schmidt tries to do once it all comes out. You talk about the police once he, your father comes forward. They also ask him to do something that is very, very difficult for this former friend that is suddenly turning on his friend of released us. He has those mixed feelings. What do they get him to do in terms of what they call a confrontation and what happens as a result in that con cation, yeah se right away at the desert when they went to the bodies they right away started telling my father that they wanted him to confront Charles Med to see what they could get Charles Schmidt, you know once they

they knew that, once Charles Schmidt knew, my father had gone to the police that Charles Schmidt might come forward and confess and my father kept and he's never kind of confessed fast. You know my dad didn't believe Charles Schmidt would confess an was afraid to confront him, because you know he just it was very hard for him to go forward. Please and really he felt like this would be the end of it. So when I talk about that relief, it was because now he did, he did his part. He left Ortiz know what was going on, but now we're pushing him to go into the room where Char it was being held at the police station and to confront him so that they could try to get shit to confess an it was very difficult for my father to walk into that room and he writes about- and I think my

father did a great job of writing his emotions in that time, because you really feel the the fear that he felt walking into that interrogation room and having to face Charles Schmidt, an the look that Charles Schmidt gives him when he walks in knowing that my father had turned to men and then as they sit down. Charles Schmidt, you know right away, starts to try and turn the tables and say you know why. Did you do this Richie, you know and basically try into you know, make it sound as if my father had done this and was trying to pin it on Schmidt, and so that was a very frightening and difficult. Confrontation of the of them, because now he little Charles Schmidt in the eye- and you know really face him after

going to the police, with all of the information, an my father was very afraid of Charles Schmidt by then. You also talk about that. Once Charles Schmidt is arrested from the information that your father gave, that the or ordeal obviously is not over for your father terms of public reaction, an yeah just public reaction. What was the public reaction for somebody to was? We know heroic in coming forward. What was that treatment he was getting? But during all of this. So it was extremely negative and you basically had to two different aspects. On the one hand, you had a lot of people speculating. Why didn't he come you forward sooner and if he wasn't involved, he would have come forward sooner. You know, and and all of that story and b

has Charles SH and Charles Schmid's defense attorney tried to claim that it was my father who really killed the for sisters. There was a lot of you know, media and stories 'cause that a very that's, a great story you know to tell, and so the the newspapers, some of them really ran with that story, and so you had a lot of people in Tucson who believed May He he really did do this, or maybe he really was more involved in what he says. So you have that side of it and then, surprisingly, you had this whole other side that treated my father horribly for coming forward, and so you know my father has sure with me how you know after this, what happened and the tree we're going on. You would have people going by

home and throwing things at the house and calling him a rat in a Fink in a squealer and all of the stuff, and you know instead realizing that he came forward to stop some. He who was murdering girls instead, he was treated like he did something wrong by ratting on Schmidt, and so he was kind of having come at him from both angles, and so it was a very dramatic and if time for him, because he was complete, Wheatley treated as an outcast and a you know. I really I honestly can't imagine going through that, and I mean the whole city treat you. You know he felt like the whole city, treating him a certain way and So that was a very, very difficult time for him. Now these trials were put together, weren't lumped together. They were separate, Utah

talk about John Sanders and Mary French and the very, very disturbing testimony of these people on, and it explains how this kill mainly charismatic Charles Schmidt, convince these people to do what they did tell us about what they say in court testify to about Charles Smith and murder, valley and roll. So BO, Mary and John did. Actually, Mary French did go on the stand and she'd Ed tell the whole story and how it happened and and how he did convince her to to get a lean rota to come out. Her attorney did try to claim that she, because I was so young and Charles Schmidt with so much older, that she really could be held responsible because he was so much older and she was so smitten which made, and so they try to you know. I really say that

she was too young and innocent to really be held account. But for that, although she was found guilty of her part, John Sanders actually plead the fifth and didn't end up testifying. But Mary French is test. Tony was really enough to show that Charles Schmidt had convinced them to do this act and and It was clear that he was the mastermind of it and controlling the whole situation, and so the first trial watch for Gretchen and windy. But they really. Counted on Mary, French and John Sanders to show it's Eilene Road case that he was capable of murder and that's when it came out that that Gretchen new about the lean row killing, which is why she kind of held it over him, and that was the reason he ended up, killing her and

say windy. Her younger sister just happened to be with her so in, fortunately Wendy Was- was killed the Gretchen as well, so you think about a family that had two daughters and they both were killed. You know it's just tragic, but and then there was a lot of teenagers that came on the stand and what I really realized, and I think this is where the Pied Piper of Tucson title really comes in, because so many jurors came under the sea, and and talked about Charles Schmidt and these cases- and you know there- they were so cool connected to Charles Schmidt and defend King Charles Schmidt and the or even kids that admitted that they we're planning on something to do.

My father possibly kill him just because he came forward to the police, and so there was this giant protection of Charles SH that you really realize you know he had this connection with teenagers, that people were willing to keep the secrets and protect him to no end. There was an immediate talk to of. Again this information, but talk of a sixty member sex club. So how did this rumor and where did they derived Salacious rumor from so there were one of stories that were happening at that time? In my dad talks about you know after this all happened that, but the media was just kind of out of control with these stories, and so there were tons

those stories that came out about how there was like you said this giant sex club and that this is where this all you know came up out in these killings, and you know all of it. According to my father was also located. There was no, there was never any. You know sex club or these these things that people were talking about, but you know a story that already so since journal and crazy and and frightening. They felt this need to even a fight even more and to create even more drama around it, and so there were tons of different story. Is that we're coming out that you know? I think my dad feels like it was like they figure out a reason why teenagers were keeping these secrets and that there had maybe something more to it and but the reality is. This was just a very charismatic psychopathic man that I would

able to get people to follow him and to keep his secrets and I, but there was all of these other sensationalized stories were just you know, not a part of it. No, he talks about, though, to the second trial and an interesting, but I say, infamous, attorney comes in to play so tell us how it comes that F, Lee Bailey. It comes into the scene and and again this story looks like it's petering out, but there's much much more to the story, so tell us about a flea, Bailey and his contribution and what have and as a result of his representation, so right out, Gretchen and Wendy Fritz trial, where Schmidt was convicted convicted to death. For that, but then they right away after that. Had the lean row case, Eileen rose body at that point had still not been found, and

Charles Schmidt attorney. His name was Kenny. He decided that he needed maybe some help trying to get this case over earned or get it thrown out and F Bailey at that time was already becoming really famous attorney because he had just finished the the trial with if anyone had seen the movie the fugitive, the true case of the fugitive- and so he is SAM Shepard is his name, and so he just come up with SAM Shepard case and was able to get that case turned around or thrown out, and so there was a belief that F Lee Bailey could be the one to really get this case thrown out, and so they hired F Lee Bailey to come on to the case, which created huge media buzz here in Tucson. Because again

we talked in the beginning to someone's a very small town, not a lot going on, and then suddenly you have this giant case that I've become national news, and now you've got F. Lee Bailey come to be on the case. He He was only here a short time. He spent a couple days here and as soon as he spent anytime with Schmidt, he knew that Schmidt was guilty and he told the defense that you know, there was no way they were going to get him off of this and they convey. Then start F. Lee Bailey convinced Charles Schmidt to plead guilty aid to the only an case, because he just said there was no way he was going to get off because he was in F Lee Bailey's words. He was he was insane and he knew that just from spending a short time with Charles Schmidt. Right- and you also talk about in March- sixty six, as you say, Charles Smith, Junior

first degree, murder for Gretchen, Wendy, Fritz death penalty, gas chamber and his wife at that time. Diane fifteen years old is sobbing at this trial and but then soon after Schmidt claim something concerning F Lee, Bailey and escape. It takes a little twist and turn so after he pleaded guilty to a lean row shortly after that ' 'cause the lean role they found, even though they had nobody. They said that she, he was beaten over the head with rocks and that's what Mary French testified to Charles. I had never. You know at first never really confessed. He never went on the stand, and so nobody ever really heard Charles Schmid anything about the cases. And so then he decided that he wanted to take the police,

how to lean rose body to prove that her school had not been fractured, and his hope was that he could prove that. But the case really didn't happen. The way they claimed and that he could you know claim John Saunders was the one that really killed Alene row and that he had nothing to do with it. So he agreed to take them out to the bodies. He said that F Lee Bailey coerced him into pleading guilty and that he really wasn't an So he drove them out to the body of lean row and took them to the grave and but they did find that her school was massively fractured and therefore it did stand that he was still guilty. You also talk about in one thousand nine hundred and seventy one that use Us Supreme Court declares capital. Punishment, laws in Arizona, unconstitutional, Schmitz sentences commuted to fifty years.

Then you talk about October. Seventy two you talk about Schmidt disappears from his maximum security prison cell and this roadblocks set up and the police search inside and out, and they find him a few hours later. Hiding in a prison welding shop tell us what happens in November. Seventy two right daisy dead, possibly attempt in October when they found him in the welding shop to escape, but then in November, a month later, he did successfully escaped. So, as you mentioned, his death penalty was the commuted to fifty years because they found the death penalty Uncc Institutional here in Arizona and one he was no longer sentenced to death. He was treated like every other prisoner

and he was actually allowed to go off of the prison grounds. Ann work as they let prisoners do on the you know, working on the streets and things picking up litter and stuff, so he was outside the prison walls and ended up escape being with another: triple murderer: Raymond Hudgens and they did escape from Florence Present and they in did up taking several hostages from one of the little nearby town and eventually they split up. I SH med up heading toward Tucson and an hudgens is found going. Another direction are the police at that time had reason to believe that my father might be in danger, and so I was just a small toddler at that time, but they did take my father, an US and my mother, and we were all put under police protection because it

we believe that he was heading toward Tucsan and they did finding Schmidt in Tucson at a rail yard and they ended up taking him back into custody, but he did successfully. Escape from prison in November of one thousand nine hundred and seventy two you talk about now in nineteen. Seventy four Those appeals are exhausted. He changed is his name legally to Paul David Ashley and then in nineteen. Seventy five in March tell us what happens to him in prison. So in prison, two fellow inmates stabbing meet him for between twenty and forty stab wounds. They completely just you know he ends up with a severed long and then I that ends up having to be taken out- and you know

really just horribly, stabbed in prison and then can days later, he ends up dying from those those wounds so he is killed by two fellow inmates. It's hard to say you know, there's uh, never really clear, exactly why they did it that comfy, same thing is both of these inmates that stabbed him. I not in there for anything serious and they both would have been out prison in less than ten years. So there is speculation, as Joe Banano had been involved when they first were looking for russian and windy. There is some speculation that may have been a mafia hit for the kids Fritz family, but it's hard to there's no real, clear answers as to why these two inmates attacked and killed him. You talk about the sentences.

Well, I think we mentioned it but John Sanders. Nineteen years old, with that, damn pled guilty to second degree murder and he got a life sentence and you talk about that. That was as far as you know, about fifteen years and he was released and then that very French receive four to five years and then she was released in you say about three years. Yes, so she did three years time and then from what we know. If she'd told reporters that she was going to text us when she was released and then John Saunders, there is a John Saunders who, fifteen years after sentence NG, was released from Florence State prison. He did receive a life sentence, but about fifteen years would have been what a life. It's really. You know what you served at that time So it's you know it's a that that be the John Sanders who did go to Florence Prison, but he was released fifteen years later. You in

glued something. That's very, very interesting. At the end of the book, the twenty seventeen interview with Richard Bruns, your father, tell us a little bit about this, and what is is learned from this interview. So he does share, and you know I think, one of the interesting things for me as a daughter to have read. I have a story that and I think what makes this book really unique as a threat. Ten, it's written fifty years ago, if my father wrote this book today, it would not be the same story because people change after fifty years there there their opinions of things and their feelings of things change. When you read the book, you really do sense that there was a big struggle with my father in that he still really cared Charles. She somehow

you know they were really close friends, and this was a real big struggle for him. You know in. In doing the interview to kind of update the reader on my father now, you know one something that I really gather is that you know he he have a much cynical feeling Tord Charles read now, then maybe he even did when he wrote that so fresh and new after the cases, but he does share in his interview. You know the things happen after that he in the struggles he had tried into you know he he he had married shortly during one of the trials, the second trial he married, we had my older sister, and so he was trying start a family and really struggled in Tucson the time he got a job and people with find out who he is, he would get fired. He just really having a hard time moving forward and

life and moving forward from these cases. He even I tried to go to to Phoenix to find work there. Eventually they did stay here and settle in Tucson. He eventually did go to the u of a and become a teacher, and I was able to move forward forward in his life. An you know was a wonderful, loving mother and It's amazing us growing up. This wasn't a part of our history at all, because it just wasn't something that it was talked about and so reading this book. I for me that's what was so surprising to. He is not even knowing all of this had happened and then to get from my dad's perspective, but he tax in the interview about you know how he moved forward, and you know his life after the trials.

There's an interesting story in there, that's very, very demonstrative. A very visual is that your otherwise hitchhiking still live that home and and hitchhiking for work and there there is a an event. That is very that you know it's probably stays with him today. No doubt to tell us all this for open the road incident. He was, it was when he decided he was going to hitchhike to feed, next he didn't have a car, so he checking the phoenix to find work and there's a small town that at that time you had to kind of travel through because our highway hadn't been built yet, and so the small too. He had been traveling through to get to Phoenix and was dropped off there, and so was waiting for another ride from that point, and he was just waiting for a car

come by to hit. You know continue hitchhiking along and he on that same day that he was hitchhiking to Phoenix from tucsons. It was the same day that Charles Schmidt was being transferred from to to Florence State prison, which you had to go through, that seems small town to get the Florence State prison and was sitting there waiting for a ride. He saw an unmarked police vehicle all coming down the road and it turned out that it actually was the car that was traveling with Charles Schmidt in the backseat, and he watched cargo by you know with Charles Schmidt, an you know. He writes about and again the way he writes that I can't tell the story the way. You know that he shares his emotion and that, but you know to be standing there, trying to move word in his life and to have that vehicle drive by which uh she in the backseat who kind of look past them but didn't

seemed to really register his mind seems to be somewhere completely different, but he watched him drive by and and it really was what he says, one of the most dramatic moments of his life. It was just you know. In fact he couldn't. Even you know, he told me he and even keep going to Phoenix. He ended up turning around and coming back to Tucson because he was so thrown and so shocked that this just happened and so it definitely was a traumatic moment, and you know kind of very almost poetic. The this. You know ends with them. Each going their separate ways and and Justin I'm moment really. You also talk about your father and the other characters. Mary French John Sanders, Paul G, what happens with in terms of speaking to those people again,

he really doesn't ever speak to them again. Now he does Cassie. Continue to live in Tucson as well and for a couple of different terms, my father does end up seeing Kathy different places. They really just looked at each other, then say anything they've, never spoken again and Paul ended up a at some point. He was a delivery driver who actually delivered something to a print shop that my father was working out here in town and they saw each other and so each time he saw these two people. I think there was you know. I think all of them wanted to move forward from these cases in the story, and so they see each other, but they never say anything to each other and

and then overtime. They just never did see each other again, so it could be that they just got older and maybe they saw each other, but in recognize each other. But you know my uh you're standing. Is that Kathy still here in Tucson? So you know how to say they could have seen each other and and not known, but they all. Just you know kind of moved forward. You see this affected the city of Tucson, but memories fade. But this story has been revived several times over. The years has and then you say yeah, your father thinks it's inaccurate and incomplete, but it has. It has not gone away. This story has it it has, and then you know what always confuse my father's. You know he says that he doesn't understand, there's so many cases and so many stories of serial killers that killed many people. You know and are

more, I guess over the top stories and he never quite understood what made what makes the story so interesting that people keep bringing it up. I really think it comes down to the fact that you know you're talk mean about the town of Tucson. That was such an innocent place, and you know, Charles Schmid. These murders happen before I, Charles Manson, and so this idea that somebody could get a following and get teenager to murder with him and and then, when you look at the pictures of Charles Schmidt and just see how you know, but he was and how odd he looked, I think there's so many pieces, the story and then for my father's peace and it to have this question mark of.

You know you have this other person that had this connection with Charles Schmidt an so. I think it all creates just a really intriguing story that keeps surfacing, because I do I think it was just so unique for the time and- and while I I just I do think it probably is going to just keep into the service has been fifty years and it's you know still coming to the surface, which is again- why I really am glad my father agreed to have his story out there, because at least his side. I can be known and heard- and I think that's that's so for my father as a daughter, I I want that for him, it seems that this story is, prior to some of the other stories where there, but they made famous where teenagers have this the phenomena of.

Having at least an initial loyalty to their friends not to immediately run to the police, when they've seen something like this like murders and and also they the idea that that your father was criticized because you didn't come forward immediately this or why did it take a couple months? And so your father was always questioned about why why he didn't do something sooner yeah, and I I think the only thing that I would encourage people to think about. You know when you hear the story or read. The story is- and I mentioned it before this- was a different time when you know nowadays. If, if I, if I have a friend that can fight it means that they murdered somebody, and I go the police, you know nowadays, if somebody knows who the suspect is, there's all of these dots that they can connect there. You know computers and there's cell phone records and dna, and all of this this was

the time when all my other had was a story and Nobody knows what would have come of that if he did go to the police, he had no proof of anything. You know to the time that he was shown, the two bodies- and so it's easy from an outsider's perspective, to look in and go oh well, you know if he wasn't guilty of something he would have gone to the police right away, but the truth is you know he didn't have a lot to share, except for a story and at that time wasn't a lot for police to put together, and so it would have been. My father's word against Charles Schmidt's word Anne. My father would have probably put himself into a lot of danger at that time, or at least that I'm sure he was fearful of that. So I would just you know: ask people to kind of see it for the time that it wasn't understand as a young man, you know what you know. It's easy to look from an outside and

say that that's what you would have done, but you know it wasn't as simple as that. There's a crucial scene in this book, the defining moment for your father, where he knows this information. He is told this information again. He not quite sure if this isn't just part of elaborate lies, but then he does the test himself so that he know himself in his heart of hearts and asked to see those body so he's very clever at Jane in being able to do something that will prove it to himself and then once that is proven to himself, he does the appropriate thing. Yes very interesting. Yes, I want to thank you very much LISA Ass Bitch for coming on and talking about. Yes,

This book, I squealer the insiders account of the Pied Piper of Tucson murders for those that might want to do. You have a facebook page or a website for the book. How might be able to if you go tab if you go to yes, squealer dot. Com is the website for the book and there is book trailer there there's other things about the the book, the story and there is links to buy book on Amazon, Barnes and noble, but you can pretty much find the book anywhere books are sold, and I just want to tell you thank you so much for for allowing me this opportunity to share the story. Thank you, it is been a pleasure. It isn't story and I'm glad that you and your sisters brought this incredible re to light on behalf.

Your father is a book that needs to be read. Thank you, so much hope to speak to you again. Thank you Dan. Thank you, goodnight. Thank you.

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