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What moves you moves us get started with instant pay when you sign up to drive with us at uber, dot com, slash, drive, experiences driving with uber may vary. Drivers were signed up with instant bacon cash out up to five times a day terms apply. Radio You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky.

She was an innocent mormon girl. He was America's most notorious serial killer when their paths crossed on it. Autumn afternoon he planned to kill her. But this view Adam had an incredible will to survive, it would live to her story nearly three decades after he met death in a Florida Electric Chair, TED Monday brutally attacked Rhonda Stapley in a secluded, Utah Canyon in one thousand nine hundred and seventy four Shemar Calculus Lee escaped and hid her dark secret. Until now compelling real story of triumph over tragedy. Is both shocking and inspiring and told with the true courage the victim turns survivor. There is a full ordered by the late great Ann rule, the book that were feet, Bring this evening is, I survived, TED Bundy, the attack, Scape and PETE usd the change, my life with my special guy author, Rhonda Stapley, welcome to the program and

thank you for agreeing to this interview. Rhonda Stapley, oh, you damn for inviting me. Thank you very much. This is an incredible tale and again just another incredible perspective. That it just amazes me never ceases to amaze me some of the books and this book in particular. From probably the most Infamous serial killer of all time, and and this incredible interest, never waned and this story should be uh, again for everyone that thinks they know everything about TED Bundy. Here is another book that tells you that that's not so true. So, let's get to. When we did in the introduction that you were innocent, Mormon girl so tell us where You grew up in Utah, and tell us a little bit about your life again. We we go back to a different.

Time so for those people that are younger or just. Again, we always have to put that in as historic perspective. So take us back that to wear. You grew up and the Mormon upbringing that you did go up and your parents and your three other sibling Tell us a little bit about your life before we talk about that fateful day. In Utah in nineteen seventy four. Alright, I was born in Richfield, UT, and my father moved around, we moved around quite a lot here than the potato industry and I actually went to

grade school in Burley id, and I went to Junior high in old fellow Washington and high school in Connell Washington. I have relatives in Utah, that's where my grandparents and people were so when it came time to go to college. I chose to come to the University of Utah. I have two older brothers and one very much younger sister she's twelve years younger than me, I was raised in a very conservative, LDS Mormon Household. We believe in web called the word of wisdom, which is not taking of alcohol copying tobacco. Not eating things that are bad for the body and not abusing drugs, and not over overindulging Anyting

even purity and chastity and saving yourself for marriage and all of those kind of things at the world considers virtuous and especially Alex that pine periods, young women. No also at that time, when you talk about the opera thing that you have you you said, your sin was Pepsi COLA, so this is about how or outlandish you ever got, was to sneak some Pepsi COLA for yourself. Wasn't it yeah, I would I would drink. Pepsi Pepsi wasn't really against the religion, but it was kind of frowned apon because it has caffeine post avoid anything. That's a stimulant and stuff like that. So Pepsi was my evil salmon. My week now with your your you saying in the book you talk about that your father died.

Fairly early, and tell us about that, and also what you're did as a as a result, especially back in those times it must have been difficult and that affected that kind of idea that you had about yourself and what your future would be. Careerwise so tell us a little bit about the event where Father passed away an what that change your family, ok, where this is when I was fourteen, I was a freshman in high school- we had just barely moved to the town of Connell. My father had put up a brand new potato factory there and he had flown to Seattle for to talk to some patent. Attorneys and their plane crashed into Mount Snowqualmie, and he and the pilot and his business partner were all killed. He took them a week to find to find the crash plane. And during that time course family members. Came from all over to help in the search and so forth and Ann

is very, very stressful time once found the plane and we have the funerals. I just promised myself that I going to not cause my mom to worry. I was going to be the strong line and I was going to help take care of my little sister, who was too, sold at that time. She of course is it going to babysitter, and so I would avoid going on very many dates and things just because I eat I had to take her with or I had to leave her at the babysitter and she would cry so my mom had to get a full time job. She worked as a clerk at the hardware store because she didn't have a college education. Those were times when women normally didn't work outside the home and if they did it was kind of mundane waitressing. Secretarial and nurses and school teacher kind of jobs, and I decided at that point that I- I was not going to have that kind of a clear I was going to

I was not going to depend on marrying somebody to support me. I was going to have a career that I could support myself if something serious happened and there was a lady that started there were There are many pharmacists who are women in that time, but but there was one lady pharmacist started coming to our town, just kind of as a relief pharmacist once a week should work and are in our little town and once a week should work in another little town and and just by working through four days a week. She made far more only then my mother was making working six days a week, and decided that. Maybe I would be a pharmacist. That's what I came to the University of Utah to do. They have one of the better Pharmacy college examination possible close to my relatives. Now we talk about the University of Utah and. Just want to add to that you. You really had no experience with violence, as you say you

In that regard, you were very naive and, and- That at that time, that you also point out that most people that you You were not aware of any. These attacks associated with what we would find out later, is TED Bundy. Where were they? I'm not aware of any of this news. That's right at the time that that this happened to me was just in beginning of the school year in one thousand nine hundred and seventy four TED Bundy course that started killing people as far as really recorded in Is his history in January in state of Washington and Oregon an He killed on about a monthly basis. Little bit off here and there little bit of variation but close to a month, I'm about a month apart and he had killed eleven women in the first nine months of that year. And then he.

Move to salt Lake City to also attend the University of Utah. As a first year law student hum People in Utah had not heard about killings in Washington and Oregon no need even heard of a serial killer. I don't think there was even a word call bad. Of course, there's always been serial killers, but nobody called them out until TED Bundy came came around. I believe things that phrase was coined for him. Now you talk about the day in question, but tell us a little bit just before that we're talkin the date is October, but tell us Little bit about about that about how school was and casual or strict, it was at that time. I guess I'm alluded to it. It was very casual but tell us the the atmosphere in the environment at this University of Utah Health. Safe. Did you feel at this campus? I felt

very safe, and this is the time when everybody try. Help everybody and nobody was that there was hardly in such thing as fear People would walk around alone at night to go to the library and study till midnight and walk home, and you wouldn't be worried about. You need happening to you. People were looking out for other people, no one locked their doors lived in an apartment building on the fourth floor of a thirteen story, apartment building and people would, going right up the elevators and just party, Every room. Everybody was everybody's friend, whether you're really knew them or not. Most of most of the people that I associated With- were LDS and part of my Mormon Ward. We would go to social functions and picnics and

Inner tubing down the snow and stuff as a group of of other Mormon people have hot chocolate and chili afterwards. MIKE was good now. At the same time, I got asked this question unfortunately, but because I remember you know born in one thousand nine hundred and fifty nine. So I remember how casual it was where I was in terms of hitchhiking, women or men, or people pitching picking up hitchhikers or people, willing to take rides from people. So what was sort the rule at that time, just to point out for audience actually sort of the again, though sort of carefree atmosphere? We were still in at that time it seemed like. So what exact it was the rule about hitchhiking a lot People hitchhiked, I never hitchhiked, because I heard it wasn't safe and I believe that whoa

I felt about my experience was that it was not hitchhiking. I think everybody knew that hitchhiking was dangerous, but it wasn't so dangerous. People still didn't, dare to do it Probably the year before I had picked up a ticket from the Bolton Bored Board in the student lobby that We just had little tear tags on it. If you wanted to ride to washington- and I needed to go home for Thanksgiving the year before this, and I just tore off a ticket and rode home and in a van full of hippie kind of student heading back to Washington, state everybody chipped in twenty bucks gas and nobody knew anybody, but it was the but you could do stuff like that. Now you write in the book. You talk about October. Seventh, one thousand nine hundred and seventy four with young girl named Nancy Wilcox, which is sixteen years old and from Holiday Utah, is it

Mormon girl as well. She disappeared and friends had reported that she may have been driving in a light, colored VW. So then, for that, tell us what was happening on October 11th with you personally in Europe, personal life that day. Ok with my personal life I haven't heard actually about Nancy Wilcox disappearing the week before, because people have thought that she was a runaway and her story didn't even really make the news on the 11th. It was a Friday afternoon. Fall kind of weather funny, but kinda kinda, nippy, cold and- and I had a dentist appointment at a down. SALT Lake City Dental place. I had sing a brand new car recently, but I was kind of chicken to drive it in city traffic, and so I left it home and rode the basket. That's what I've been doing? My whole college career the three year

I've been at the university already I'd been bus, rider person, and so that day I took the bus town and then, after the dental appointment. I on brand new shoes, so I decided I would walk over to a park. Now I was at that dentists office something went wrong in my mouth and my whole face became woman in red and sore, and it ended up that the dentist had to cut all on my gum line and rinse out the inside of my cheek, because I don't know I think, It made some kind of an error. He told me some story about. It was because I was had been a premature baby in my jaw, wasn't completely form so when he injected something it went into the wrong part of my mouth, but regardless, when I left, I had stitches in my mouth and that's kind of thing

second because there are a lot of TED, Bundy victims and other victims who have had something distracting them. Either they'd had a fight with her boyfriend or the parents were sick or they were sick or they had tests coming up, or you know some kind of stress that there weren't really as focused and probably is concentrated and as as- paying attention as they normally would have been, not as cautious now. The one thing that was again is very navigate is that you said you had brand new shoes, but you had on hiking boots and tell us about what was significant about those hiking boots and what you did with them. Hiking boots, just about every pair I've ever bought and have been the same way, the lace. These are long enough for about three pairs of hiking boots, so these boots had laces that just went on forever and so I lace them up. These were high top over there

all kind of boots and at least him up snug and then wrapped the this is that were way too long around and around my ankle for four times and then time in a bowl and then double nodded them. So they were really on my feet. Well and then I'd walk to the park kinda break him in and just take a break from school and classes. Now, when you went near the park to explain this. You know it's always amazing to me that when I look at a photo of TED Bundy, he looks like to me Greg Kinnear, the Allumette American US actor. You know, but that's just me, but tell us what you did see. Of course you didn't see the serial killer, TED Bundy, But why again we said you had a strict rule. You wouldn't have hitchhiked so tell us about circumstance, and what is it that you saw that.

Seemed to formulate, in your mind a sense of. Security or no apprehension will say: ok, well after I had wondered around park for awhile and done about everything. There is to do Aviary and watch people. Picnicking walk with my boots through the yellow and gold leaves and stuff from falling off the trees in the autumn then I, the numbness in my mouth, from the surgery had started to come off and I could tell I was going to be in pain and then I better find up bus stop and get back up to campus. I lived on campus and that's where I needed to be going so found a bus stop and I waited and waited buses we come every ten to fifteen minutes and I must have waited thirty, administer so and no bus had come even if I'd missed the first one. I was way too long for the neck. Want to have come. I was my mouth was being sore and I was discouraged and I was

trying to think of where another bus stop would be. That would have the same route. That would get me back up to campus. And then down the road came a tan volkswagen just drove by really slow. This was in nineteen. Seventy or there was not a lot of traffic and it drove really slow and then it stopped and backed up few driver leaned over and rolled down the passenger window. An ask me where I was going and I told him I was going to the university and he smiled and me to hop in I open the door and God in he did not seem scary. I knew it that hitchhiking was not a good idea, but this did not feel like hitchhiking. This felt, like a friendly college, helping a fellow college students. He was not scary and it didn't feel wrong or dangerous. Now. A conversation ensued. So in the beginning of the conversation again in seem to be apprehensive.

So tell us what you guys talked about, and then you talk about a different route. So tell us what happened? So I tell him you know my name is Rhonda and I'm pharmacy student at the. U, he tells me my seems to head and my my first year law student. We talked about cars. I told him that I had a new car and I was scared to drive it and you it's only gonna just a couple of blocks when he turned e and you could get to university of that direction? But it wasn't the normal direction. Had a really steep hill to go up and volkswagens have a stick shift. With the clutch and I never would have dared drive up that hill with a with a stick shift and an icon, joke with him about that said. Why are we going this way? This is kind of a scary way to go because We get like roll downhill backwards and he says now he's to that car and it'll be just fine, but he very very politely said. I hope you don't

fine. But I have a really short errand to run up by the Zoo and I didn't mind. The zoo is just kinda Canyon over from the from the university and almost on the way, and I would still be home faster than if I had waited for the bus. So then we drove up tour, zoo started going up the canyon where the zoo is located, and we went right on past the zoo. Well, I said hey, You are taking me to the zoo kind of joking with him and we're just just chatting. It just seemed like to college kids chatting, and he said no. I did take me to the zoo. I said I had enough, an errand to run near the zoo, so we kept going through the you go through a little town and over heal and then you're in part who is canyon, which is the main highway coming back into the city, and at that point this the sun is setting we're going west into the sunset, and you see this beautiful city and it's beautiful and we're just kind of CIAO.

Bring stills, no warnings going off and no bells and whistles. It's obvious, but there was no errand to run, but I thought he's just flirting with me and uh Just taking me for a car ride. Then we to the bottom of that canyon. He should have turned right take me to campus and instead we turned left them. Going up another canyon, and that was when the the trip started to feel awkward and not quite as safe. And the conversation changed. Yes, he said his mood changed too yeah he'd been talking to me the whole way, just just you know about about books in about professors in about buildings, on campus and road construction and just whatever people who don't know each other very well kind of talk about and

and then all the sudden we've started up that canyon. He stopped talking to me and just had both hands, Firmly planted on the steering wheel and it's just driving and every time he goes around the corner, kind of slows down and he's looking at side, roads and turn offs and picnic areas and I'm feeling a word not really frightened, but just kind of uncomfortable. So I'm I'm thinking my mind that he's looking for a place to pull over in park and make out and I'm to make out girl, and I don't really know him and my mouth is sore from the dentist and I just kind of want to take me home. But I don't want him to think that I'm a prude and I don't want to embarrass either of us. I want this to just I want to get out of this situation. Gracefully and I'm trying to think of, way to do that and-

and you say, he's trying to find a suitable place to park when he finally does that he then he turns, and you think he's going to kiss you and what does he say yeah he the car and he kind of turned into see so. He is almost facing me and he leaned in really close, and course I thought that he was going to kiss me and I'm my mind is going. How can I get out of this and then he very quietly said: do you know what I'm going to kill you, and he put his hands on my throat and started squeezing. And then I'm a million things went through my mind. Could he be kidding? Is it's a joke? Is he got a bad sense of humor? Israel, and why would he want to kill anybody in? Why would you want to kill me panic set? In about that time, when you realize that he's squeezing way more tightly them. It could be a joke yeah and what? How d up to fight with every bit of

How long does it take you to finally realizes that he's killing me, and what do you do as a result? My rely that pretty right away this just with a couple of seconds before I realized that he I'm joking around and there was a big kind of a battle in the car, but I lost he. I went unconscious lost consciousness in the car and then we move me out of the car to like a picnic table and the assault continued there. Now you initially talk about waking up after this brutal sexual assault and we'll talk about later. Why you? We won't talk about exactly what he said at that that time, but. He thinks you're dead, at least

that's what it seems you wake up face down in the dirt. And what can you see from that vantage point and then what this you instinctively do. Ok, this was pitch dark by now, there's no light anywhere. I don't remember a moon or stars or anything, but there was that the car was par. About thirty feet away and the car Passenger door was open, so the dome light is glowing and in that light I can see that he is over there by the car fiddling around with and in the back seat or doing something in the in the car facing away from me, and I just jumped in ram the other direction into pure blackness. I didn't know if I was going to into the woods or whatever, but it turned out. I was going into the river, it was a math moving mountain river right there, which I pull into the river, swept me away from him and is essentially what saved my life.

Now it's important to is. We talked about those boots and the three Up around laces that you used, And when you got up to run, of course, you didn't pay attention to anything. You thought I have an opportunity to run. You recognize it. You would just woken from you remember being choked out. So at least you remember that and the sexual assault as well. So what is if that happens, that you get up what happens. You say you fall into the river but tell us I hadn't? I hadn't noticed, but my pants were in a wad around my ankles. And so when IRAN, of course I tripped but fortunately it was right next to the river. When I tripped and fell, into the river, maybe for for those shoes, the story might have been kind of all different 'cause when I was able to climb out of the river, I still have my my boot

fun and because of that, I still have my pants on. Like it still kind of rearrange my clothes and walk home replied to have different kind of shoes. I would have been able to walk the twelve to fifteen miles home that the trip was, and somebody would have known what it happened to me. Well, let's go backwards, little bit because you just downplaying how amazing this story is. Is that you? go to run away. You don't know if you're running into a forest or off a cliff, and you end up your pants around your ankles, your boots. He couldn't get them off because of the laces, so you're in the water, now you're floating violently down this stream. It's not like it's a pleasure cruise down in this dream and tell us What saves you from just be battered by going down one stream at this pretty good pace so it's a little more it's a little more dramatic than you're saying so. Tell us a little bit about it, yeah This river is a bathroom.

Being mountain stream, so there are rocks and boulders and. Not really waterfalls, but water tumbling over top of folders and swirling around boulders and I'm being smashed into rocks and under tree limbs that are going across the river and eventually what I, what stops me is, I come to seems like it was like a metal grate. That's set up there to stop debris from going further stream, and I ran into this kind of little like a little damn and got stuck in. There in all of this debris and was able to climb out because of that now. Call my task, and people might think that somebody people might want to try to flag down a motorist, but you still fear this sale and so, as a result, what do you do?

and again you have these great hiking boots on. So it's not luckily you're, not naked and barefoot, and we'll see why that's especially in Other than the obvious that you can escape much better with these boots on tell us what your strategy is. Once you get out, you're, pretty clear thinking that maybe This guy is still on the look for you and that he hasn't just forgotten about you and written you off he may be Will be looking for you, so how do you proceed from there? you know there's only one road out of the canyon and if I was going to flag down a car, it might be his car, and I did I was afraid to go anywhere near the road. So I stayed in river or right along side of the river and just kind, walked in the weeds in the rock some. And in the long side of their it's flashing along in the water pitch dark and see So I stumbled a lot and I'd come to trees that had fallen over the river they had to climb under or climb over and the play

through the attack. Happened was about four miles up the canyon, and so there was that for nails. By the time I got out of there. I was pretty much tired of hiking by then and decided you know. Maybe I would find a ride home. I didn't really the plan, but I thought the first thing, thought when I climbed out with nobody can know this happened. But at this point I'm out of the canyon. I'm thinking I'll just fine. Nobody will give me a ride home. It was awesome there. Ski rental shop at the end of the canyon in the shop was closed. But there was a couple of cars parked. There was, a bunch of man who are drinking beer and laughing, and I decided that was not going to be my ride, I would just have to walk, and so I sucked it up and walked back to campus. I took the side streets and try to stay off the main roads panicked,

but I'm a car would turn towards me because I thought it's going to be that guy. So your priorities just and you capture This very vividly in the book is that. Your priorities are that number one you want to get back to your campus too. You want to clean up three. Nobody. You know. This is maybe the number one nobody is to know because you're in bear wrist you're somewhat to blame. You believe in terms of this happening, and you just don't so tell us what this complex Sort of emotional Situation is for you instead of what people I think, as they watch TV, that people would just normally pick up the phone and nine one one, and so tell us where you are emotionally here that that doesn't happen and what does happen.

When I was a young woman, probably like junior high and high school in our in our church, the teachings were about being chased and virtuous and that that was the most important thing that a woman could have and that, if, if we were being attacked and that it's better to give up your life than it is to give up your virtue and I and I had lived so. I kind of had guilt that I had lived and I and I felt like embarrassed at that I'd. Let this happen to me and ashamed. I felt stupid haven't got myself into such as stupid, dangerous situation. In the first place, I thought that people that knew me would treat me differently and it would be awkward and weird. I thought that if my mother

about should make me drop out of school and come home, I thought that people would when it mean, say that's her. That's that girl that was raped and I just decided that I was just suck it up and pretend it never happened and go on with my life. Now you had visible injuries and other injuries how how, Did you get around those injuries? How did you. Excuse yourself from certain things where people might know. Where might ask questions? How did you do that? Well, fortunately when I got home early the next morning, my roommates were gone. So I had the place to myself and I bathed and cleaned up and Found all my long sleeve shirts, with the high neck collars, and I baseball hats, bring down over my can.

Changing my forehead. So people can see my my eyes so much. They were kind of blotchy, like happens when you're strangled. And then, when people would ask me what happened, I would use the dental excuse. 'cause. I told me that your your face I will be sworn a little bit and you might even get a black eye just from the dental surgery. That he'd done And so, and I had these stitches, so I would tell people if they really ask. I'd say you know: I've been to the dentist and I'd lift up my lip and show them the role of stitches and they would say who would in did this to you. You should get a liar, but nobody had reason to not believe me because yeah, I was an honest person. Now to add to your apprehend in, though, is that

you realize that you left your backpack and your id with TED Bundy site, correct, half, correct neighbors, probably still in the car, as far as I know It had my student id and had my driver's license, but I I have recently remember that really recently, but my license and my id went to an old address that I had lived at previously, so I didn't really have my address, but I was kind of worried that he still could find me 'cause. It was there with a big university for a small town girl, it was a small university as far as universities go if I had wanted to find me. He probably could have. Now so direct result of this before any of the other talk of PTSD. The immediate result of this is that you are not really eating

and you're, not really sleeping and near stopping before you were gregarious and hour going and socially active you're not going out. So much, not socially active as much. Set the way yeah. I kind of gave up all all social functions and I wasn't eating right and I wasn't sleeping hardly at all and in the night time I would wake up just shaking in a panic and all I want to do is run, and so I would go out light at night and run and as time went on, they were more and more young one Disappearing and more and more bodies being found in canyons and my room rates- would not happy that I was running around in the middle of the night. One of them would insist that she comes with me. She would first tell me You can't go out there, because it's not even safe- and I tell her I have to go over, so she would. And will wait a minute and I'll come with you. She would

and with me in the rain in the snow. You talk about other attack. Actually, it happened shortly after yours, October, 18th Melissa, Smith was seventeen Midvale from Midvale Ut Near SALT Lake Animal. His father was Midvale Police Chief. Now you say you don't know the rules that TED used to lure Melissa, but she disappeared and you were watching the news coverage, And interviews with Melissa's father pleading with the public to find his daughter and nine days later, someone stumbled on his remains so tell us about what it felt like what you were watching and what was what was your reaction to what you were watching. What did that do to you? What was your reaction to that the very beginning when I, when he first then the Father first went on tv and was saying please public, you know, help help, look for my daughter because she's missing? We have no idea where she went. She

not the kind of girl who would run away I was worried that I wouldn't really connecting them because she was younger than me and she was from out in the valley and some butter, but the university, and so I didn't really connect it. If I didn't want there to be a connection, so I would kind of denying that just thinking the world is getting to be wicked and there's something else. What happen somewhere and they found her body and that We feel really sad, especially since she was in canyon and I have been in a canyon and I starting and to kind of connect it a little bit but still refusing to believe that that one person could do all that damage and then a week after that there was a Laura aim from another nearby town that disappeared. And people thought she was a runaway too. So it took a little while for her story to get on the news and

when they started talking about her. They started connecting all three of them. The news news people were saying there was Nancy Wilcox, disappeared and Melissa, Melissa Smith, Disip Weird and Laura aim now has disappeared and one of them is found dead and some Things going on and I'm starting to think will thing is going on and I was talking about going to the police and working my way up to that when the next week TED Bundy attacked two more women, one was Carol Daronch who tried to kidnap, from a nearby mall and she managed he pretending to be a police officer and told her that he'd, seen someone breaking into her car and when she come with him to the police station and so she got in his Volkswagen and he tried to handcuffs on her. She managed to escape and gave the police a description of him and his Volkswagen

and right after she escaped he had gone a couple of miles. I think it's like twelve miles. To another. Little city called bountiful and taking Deborah camp from a high school parking lot and she is never been found, but they found The key in the parking lot where Deborah was taken that fit the handcuffs the off brand. Strange brand of handcuffs that had been Carol, Daronch by where Deborah was taken, fit those handcuffs and that's how I knew that exactly my bad guy was a very bad guy. Now you said you were sick with guilt at that time and thought they would. You are, wracked with guilt, why were you racked with guilt? And why didn't you come forward guilt? Because I thought that if I had come forward, he would have been caught sooner

or people would have at least been warned to stay away from nice, looking guys in volkswagens, and I was thinking that, probably not so much Nancy Wilcox ' 'cause. She happened before me, but everybody after me was maybe my fault that they had died, and so I had that guilt. Thought about going to the police. But then they already had they had a description, him and his car from Carol I didn't think that I had any other information to offer and they're still uh all those reasons I had that were still important to me about now letting my mother find out, and people. Treat me weird and I would have to tell police details that I was unable to do at that time. It still just was too hard to come forward. Now this, like, I say these huh,

Chris found lower aims body on Thanksgiving beaten beyond recognition. You were having a very hard time sleeping at that time. You talked about Caryl Ranch, making a an apt description of TED Bundy tell us about the doctor examination it. You You didn't have right after at all, tell us what this doctor doesn't that it's for you when you finally get examined, and he talks about your last pelvic exam, and this is incredible- so tell us a little bit about that yeah. I wasn't eating right and my roommates could tell that. I was not feeling good and I was unhappy and I was having Jeff and running in the middle of the night and things and one of my roommates convinced me that I should see a doctor. I was having some urinary contract related issues, and I'm wondering if.

You know, I'm very naive, I don't know. Maybe I could be pregnant or maybe I have some parable sexual disease, or maybe I've been injured some way, but maybe I ought to see a doctor. So I found a you're just in the yellow pages and an I went to him and this. As in the days when you didn't have medical assistance and things that little doctors clip was just ran by the doctor and his office lady doctor D, at all of the tests himself, and he asked me If, when when my last pelvic exam had been- and I told him that I have never had a pelvic exam and he says well, if you're, if you're sexually, if I would recommend that you have one especially being you're having symptoms in that area and I wasn't really sure if being raped, equaled being sexy- the active, but I told him yeah, we probably we prob. Should do it so he did

exam, and he told me that I had some some bad caring tearing that's usually caused by too rough with intercourse, and he told me that maybe in the future, you might want to be a little less exuberant. And still you didn't reveal to this doctor, this horrible truth did you. You do took it out of the inside Is it if it e yeah? I thought he's in instead and I'm I'm out here show me the weight of the door. Now with this as well. You do seek medical aid in terms of you discover this sleeping aid. Name Plaza Del tell us about your dalliance with class Adele at the far the students have to do an internship in the summer before it happened. I had

just begun, my internship at a little independent Rexall store and the boss there very nice to his customers. People come in with broken watch is and things he would replace them, and you have this one customer that brought back a bottle of sleeping pills and he was grouchy. It saying, pay a whole bunch of money for these pills and they don't even work, and I don't want him. I want my money back and so the boss, refunded his money and and made the customer happy And then what pharmacies do with return pills is controlled services they have to be destroyed, but instead of destroying them He knew that I was having trouble sleeping and he offered them to me as a gift, and I was afraid to take. So I just put him in my sock drawer. Ok thanks, try him someday, but I was really not ever planning on trying to just. They just ended up in my sock drawer and they stayed I thought door all the rest of that summer, while I was interning and for the first

part of the school year after his back in SALT Lake, and they stayed there, even after my attack and Peele branch and Deborah can't have their experience amounts. When I do that, my bad guy was really bad guy, an when the guilt really hit that I'd probably responsible for all of those other attacks and as his feeling so lawful and uh, slept for a month anyway, and and I'm studying Pilsen and I know that just one pill isn't going to kill me and I'm going to try to sleeping girl and just see if I can get some rest and so an studied at the same time. So I, waited it again until my roommates were all out of town and and is that in the bean bag chair and I move the clocks I could see it. I wrote down the time that I took the pills I'm going to do this scientifically and study this this little pill and see if it help me go to sleep,

And I swallowed at him and sitting there watching the clock and I totally really just expect to gradually start getting sleepy. Instead, what happened was just amazing. The thirst bursting happened is. At the very same time, my hair started tingling, my head started, feeling kind of bubbly and lighten silly, and all of that care and worry and stress just evaporated. I felt better that I felt for the whole month since my attack. I felt wonderful you for it: the instant addict to Placerville no Placerville. Despite this, I sent like I I'd

I guess facetiously called it the dalliance, but it was working to do something that nothing else could do for you at least temporarily, when you took that pill right yeah now. At the same time,. Does this classical doesn't get in the way of your pharmacist career? your career is, flourishing, especially in the. Beginning and despite the attack from Mister Bundy Tell us about that and how successful you get and it seems like you've. In some regards been carried on and you're, carrying on with your life, yeah I think that I'm managing the Plaza del use. Well, I'm You have to take it all the time and I just take it. You know when my roommates are out of town and and mostly bandaging, to get class and pass.

In my tests I managed to graduate and they managed to get a job and might field. So now I'm a licensed pharmacist, I'm making good money Plaza Del is becoming less and less awesome and I'm becoming a professional pharmacist, move to a new community, have a new job in a new apartment in new roommate and life is going I'm starting to make friends and becoming a little more outgoing again now, when you talk about in the book both January twelfth one thousand nine hundred and seventy five Bundy moves to another jurisdiction which again is import the story Colorado. Ski Lodge, Carolyn Campbell three years old. This is a bizarre story. She is with her husband and family and she excuse there I have to go up to the room. Just to get a magazine and she disappears

yeah. She did or found quit sorry yeah. I just repeating you, and who remains are found in February 18th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy five in a few miles away from the hotel. Again, she just beat on the head as well, and he can news March. Third. Taylor, Washington, four mens remains Brenda, the ball Linda and Healy Sind, Susan Rancourt and Roberta parks- and this is ten miles from where Janice Otton, Denise Naslund were found in September. Seventy four, but and what's the connection at that time, and how much do you know at that time will say it's more important. Do you know what do you aware of that time? In terms of the extent business of TED and what he is doing, are you are you able to follow? Are you tell us what you know and what you think you know at that time.

I know about the Utah women and I know uh Karen Campbell in in Colorado. And now there. Found a bunch of bodies in Washington and it's just kind of that hasn't been proven. He hasn't been charged with those crimes, but it's kind of rumored that they. They suspect that the same person that. Taking all of Utah women might be responsible for the one in Washington and Oregon. And now I These bodies are found in there. The world is starting to connect the dots and I was connecting dots to. And your Placido that has been working for a long time now. What do you with Placido? I need a bigger and bigger dose. Are you doing it more often,

I'm doing it more often and I'm being less cautious? Sometimes I'm Sometimes my roommates are home. I find that one time somebody. Somebody from our church gave me a phone call, and I just barely taking the pill. I thought I had ten or fifteen minutes before it took effect and Nobody would notice that I was kind of spaced out, and so I talked to Sky for just a little while I thought I'll just talk to him really fast and get him off the line and then lock myself in my room and enjoy my Platteville. Instead, the pill kicked in, and I talked with slurred speech and presume he he often called the bishop of our ward, who called me to see if I was suicidal by then had been telling him that acting weird and take medication.

Running around the Myla night and being depressed and and he suspected that I might be suicidal. So he had phone to kind of check on me tomorrow. Secret was being a secret. It was getting a little bit out of my control with no longer a hidden Super secret part of my life right and- and as well the that full intervening at that time they did recommend some things like changing your workload at school and so that you could cut on the drug use. And so you did say at that time that you were accepting and you were receiving a lot of help from full and it did do it- did help yeah it it and it kept me thinking that people are still nice in the, the whole world- is not murder,

person rapist that there are there are really nice people on the planet. But speaking of the murderers Lynette Don Culver, twelve years old May, sixth, one thousand nine hundred and seventy five poke. A Tellow, Idaho went missing, Susan Curtis Fifteen and she was from bountiful that's the same neighborhood as Deborah Kent four days later, Shelly Robertson, twenty four and then July. First one thousand nine hundred and seventy five golden Colorado July. First part may 19th, Twenty five golden co: three days later messi beard. Twenty three years of age and that fourth of July in Layton, Utah. So just guilty, talked about initially, This gilt gone away, or is it more intensified, what is your sleep patterns? It's

off the wall, and I am not sleeping, except with the, with the help of Plaza and and all those people who were murdered even the ones by Bundy weren't? They weren't all can to him right away. He was like a suspect, but not the only suspect, and he wasn't all. We need us, even the only murderer. They were find bodies that were in canyons, murdered by somebody else, but every time that the body was found someplace. I would assume that it's my fault, it's my killer, yeah. Now she chronicle in the book on August, six, one thousand nine hundred and seventy five sergeant Bob Hayward made history in Grange the Utah and he was finishing a shift and again the ten Volkswagen and tell us a little bit about how he does this again, how he makes history and how just notice is this ten

VW, which wasn't so out of the ordinary in those days. But why was it? Why would why did he notice it? Well, he I guess he just finished his shift and he was sitting in his. In the car and his parking lot in his driveway writing up his daily log or whatever police, guys right up? And he saw this Volkswagen drive by and it just wasn't in his wasn't hadn't seen it in neighborhood before kind of a little quiet street, and so you kind of so who your neighbors are and He had recognized that so he wasn't really concerned you just kind of Volkswagen and then we got a call from to help another officer dated systems and he was going to be back up, and so he leaves his. Right away and he goes down another little side street and there's that same Volkswagen that is pulled out we're in parked in front of Of his neighbors houses- and he knows that the neighbors are on vacation and that they have two,

Teenage daughters and those two teenage daughters are home alone, and this Volkswagen is parked in front of that house and so that kind of makes him wonder what's going on and when he he pulled up the folks wagon sped off and resulted in a little chase and when he finally caught him, TED Bundy I didn't lie to him told him he was. He just ran because- been smoking marijuana and he was found with burglary tools and and arrested for version of burglary, paraphernalia. We do talk about. A couple of things were very interesting. He says the custom. What you do in this area as well, just at the drive in at the towering inferno movie, everybody knows about and then Sergeant Hayward knew that the movie wasn't playing there so I happen to know that that's how well he knew that neighborhood, but he also notice that the front seat was unbolted.

And I thought that was suspicious. So when Monday agreed to search the car. Then he saw that, as you say with which would he thought was consistent with a burglary kit, but as we know it, yes, you point out it's a satchel with a ski mask, a crowbar some role and some wire so he's placed under arrest. So what what happens is placed under arrest. But what happens? Is we get bail with? How do they, yeah he he gets it's out on bail and he's just under surveillance because they kind of suspect him of. I guess. The next day after he's released the officer, that's was handling the Carol Daronch Kidnapping, was looking through the through the records of what happened the night before and he kind of noticed that there were minecraft in that bag that Bundy

I had in the back of his car and because Carol Assault had included handcuffs. He he started connecting the two that maybe this is the guy that Volkswagen he's young dark, haired nice looking guy and then he was suspicious. That Bundy could be The one that had assaulted, Carol, Daronch and possibly be responsible for Deborah, can't that's kind of the piece that started the puzzle. Getting to finishing point. Now what what is it get to the point you do talk about and again you wouldn't have been privy to this about the line up. What you write about this in the book that Carol the launch and another. The other witness gene, Graham the drama, teacher Debra Kent School- they look at a line are photo lineup and then they look at the

line up, and so what do they conclude from those lineups? They include that TED Bundy is the one that was seen both of Schoolwear Deborah was taken and also the one that had assaulted, Carol, Daronch, then he is arrested for kidnapping and he goes to trial and is found guilty and put in jail in Utah, where he tries to escape once public, doesn't really know about that. But he was put on a on a. Special watch out for him 'cause he's trying to make a skate plans from Utah and then they transferred him to Colorado to stand Carol, Daronch Murder, Karen Campbell Murder- is it October? Third word that you see his photo. You see your perpetrators photo and again

tell us when that is, and what is your reaction? When you see video of him I'm not sure what day that is, but it was when he was arrested for before is charge, but when he was on before you actually went to jail, but he was charged with kidnapping Carol and they showed him being marched into the police station. So there were some detectives either side of him and he's just dressed. Like a college. Do nerd, dressed in casual street clothes and and there's kind of walking down the hall together, as little group in the police station in the Understand TV is talking about that fellow has been arrested for. In connection with the kidnapping of Carol Daronch, and I remote him right away. That's when I saw him- and I thought yes, if they've got the right guy, most people watching it probably couldn't have decided which of those Guys walking down the hall, what's the what's the prisoner because

they were just kind of walking in the group it's interesting, that was TED Bundy, that's what I heard his last name knew who he actually was. And what was your reaction when you did you feel secure that he was captured, what was what was the action in terms of what did you feel yeah I was. I was relieved that he was captured because then he could be hurting anybody else. And I and I had a pretty good clue that he was just going to one of those he's just going to keep on killing people, because that's kind of kind of how his history is been going, and you have All the talk about the Washington Oregon people and all of the Utah people I knew about and all of the call little people that were just kind of starting to be discovered. Sounds interesting in

one thousand nine hundred and seventy six. You graduated college. He said it was a major milestone. You in, but in June one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven Bundy escapes yeah so that what is two for you when he escapes that totally my buggy over. I graduated- and I was on my way to starting my life- getting it back together and I was starting to become active and bring up friends and. Life is going good and then he escaped- and I have all kinds of like. I could see finding me. You know if you smart enough to escape he's smart enough to track me down, and I thought he would fine me and kill me and I knew he was going to kill me people and I still felt guilty that I haven't gotten him arrested. Years before.

All of that guilt and all those dead girls started their pictures coming into my face, and I found the class Adele again then I overdosed on the Plaza deal Far too many, and then I felt even more self loathe after I had done that, the top that you're not suppose Commit suicide and things you're supposed to stay here and take whatever kind of trials life has for you, and so so then I found a suicide hotline and talk to a young psychologist named Doctor David Doctor, Dr David. I passed out during that phone call and he had to call traced and sent paramedics and police to my rescue

Then I came to before anybody got there and figured it out and decided I better get out of there and kind of collided with them. As I was leaving my apartment and then and just as they were leaving and decided that I wasn't really in Physical danger any longer Doctor David showed up and and wanted to talk to me, and I was just so angry at him, because I thought that now the police, no. About my drug use and it's going to ruin my pharmacy career and my whole life is down tubes now, and I. Aimed all of that anger. At Doctor David told him. It was his fault and to get out of my life. Is a very fortunate meeting and will talk about will problem with the importance of Doctor David a little bit more.

At the same time, we were worried about your boss and whether you be fired, will you fired from your career as a result of this? No, I wasn't The police came and talk to my boss and and my boss came back- and I said so long by do I solve a job and he says yeah there's no problem. People around me were. Going out of their way to do nice things for me, or I was being blessed in ways that we're kind of unusual 'cause, I didn't get fired and then lose my job didn't lose my pharmacy license. Kind of got another another chance. Now you take us to December 30th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven and two weeks after but yes, he escaped again. I can't believe the The anxiety would have there and it makes it to Florida

and, as you say, he had to kill January 14th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight. The J Omega Sorority House tell. Four women in their beds fractured. So wells, jaws and broken teeth strangled one girl with a nylon stocking ambit. Two of the victims, Margaret Bowman and LISA Levy, were killed, Kathy uh Kleiber and Karen Chandler were totally were badly injured and with minutes ten minutes Bundy broke into Thomas is home and plunged agent, her fracturing first on leading her deaf in one ear and destroying her career as a ballerina. Ah, then, on February, ninety abducted twelve year old, Kimberly leach from her high school in Lake City he was arrested February 15th they stop

in a stolen Orange VW, tell us about this last bit of free, indeed, murderous killing of Bundy. And how much you knew, how much was reported, and how did you feel about what you did here, of course he's on the run and you know who he is and what he's capable of. So, how did you feel We knew who he was until after Kimberly. Leach had been killed for the time period between the CHI Omega people Kimberly Leach that was clear Florida far far away, and we haven't really heard too much about it other than there had been an attack of the school, and some students have been had been triggered in there in the in the rooms but we didn't really. I didn't really connect it to TED Bundy until. Kimberly leach a died and they have been read. Did and then the whole thing kind of came out that it was all of those people. Anna.

They brought back all of that all of the old guilt and all of that old pain and all that old anxiety just kind of time. He would get on the news even farther down the road when, when all of his Wildwood come up. I needed to watch him trials, to make sure he was really baron, hadn't escape again and. Now, in the midst of all this, you know, badness, your your continuing in your career, but something really good happens in your life and you meet Your future husband berry, an you did have to tell him. Did you had been raped and so tell us a little bit about meeting berry and how you opened up to him and what was his reaction. Yeah. I met, I met berry and I was kind of sick out respiratory infection and he wanted to come over and bring me soup

talk to him on the cb radio, CB radio kind of craze days my handle trash, pile, Annie and his with spark plug, and we started talking on the radio and then he wanted to meet me in person, and so he gave his phone number and I called him and we and where I lived, and he came over and met me and brought me soup. How can you not fall in love with somebody who comes and bring you soup. And then we talked and we were talking about man. We should just get married because we're so much alike and when we like the same things and and Why can't we get married? What would be stopping us- and I said well No, but you should. You should probably know that I've been raped just as part of He was sharing things of his past and I sharing things of mine. He. Said it doesn't matter, and he never asked any questions and I didn't operating any other. Further information we just kind of never ever talked about it for years?

kill the PTSD started coming. You were married in nineteen, seventy, nine and two months after the wedding at Ted Bundy was on trial for mark. The murders of Margaret Bowman and LISA Levy, and you walk that trial. Tell us about a little bit about that experience of watching that trial and what was TED's being if you're like what was his demeanor like at that trial and your rear, to that acting as his own attorney. So he wasn't look. Like a prisoner, wasn't didn't, have handcuffs or outfit on. He had nice. Just like a lawyer, he was. Acting as his own liar, and he would talk to the judge and talked to the witnesses and and so Pilot jury, members and flirt with the ladies in the audience.

Now you talked about as well the thieves you are watching this and with great attention. And nobody you know again, nobody knows your secret. No one at all. You've never shared this secret with anyone at that time and so So at February, seventh, now one thousand nine hundred and eighty. Oh pardon me in in well and in the end of a nineteen, seventy nine he's. Finally, given his sentence, which is the death sent, in the CHI omega case. In a February, seven one thousand nine hundred and eighty and the Kimberly Leach he received his third third death sentence. And after numerous delays July 22nd, there was a stay of execution so you say, you have feelings on the death penalty and the reason one of the reasons you have that position on the death penalty. Is that was one moment in the interviews that you watched that stood out

Where they had asked TED Bundy a question on? Why did he kill tell us about your feelings, about the death penalty and that interview and what you deduced from that? What you're? Take on that was ok. In most, this is, I don't believe in the death penalty. I think that things can you know there could be rage or Celsior alcohol or violence or self defense. It doesn't look like self defense or or something can happen and somebody who ends up dead and somebody goes to jail for murder. But I think that you know I'm the same person. I was twenty years ago and probably most little people are not the same person that they were twenty years ago and probably death penalty is wrong. I think in most cases,. But for TED Bundy didn't he needed to die. It was an interview towards the end, not the

The last interviews we talked about. Pornography being the reason for his his killing. But some of the Interviewer was asking him so TED. Why did you kill had kind of raise. One eyebrow and cocked his head a little made a little half smile and said 'cause. I liked it just killed 'cause. I liked it and I knew that he just has to die every time he would get out of jail or every time he would escape from jail. He just. Kept killing he would still be killing if he was not put to death. No, you, Had some closure with this guys death I would say to a certain degree, but this is certainly not the end of the story. Not the end of your ordeal, but another really bright spot in your life is besides your marriage. To bury is Jenna

who was born in Amelia, your daughter, so what did they do for you and again it's. Interesting. We the end of this book, but what does that do for you and how did that? Help you in your life at that time well? It gave me responsibility and gave me somebody to to really here, for that was important, more important than berry, who was who was an ad holding take care of himself. I needed to take care of these little girls, and that made it so important that I stop Plaza Del altogether. I got that completely out of my life and. Focused on raising the kids and teaching right from wrong? I'm sure I was more cautious than most parents were, and

stranger danger and things like that, and even if they didn't let them ride school buses and city buses and kind of a strict mother. Now The what you talk about two is that this, despite all of this, your ptd, PTSD is something that comes in emerges and and this gentleman that intervene on your behalf when you were reluctant to have anybody intervene on your behalf. This doctor, David urges in your life again At a time when your life is not good, despite TED Bundy, being put away beside TED Bundy being dead. You still have not shared your secret with anyone, so tell

about Dr David and what he recommends and what you go through to be able to finally deal with this incredible. Attack that you kept secret for all those years and kept APA part of your own. Felted was your fault. That's a Any of these women died and tell us about Doctor David, and the remarkable work to be had you do with him for yourself yeah. I I got kind of overwhelmed with PTSD, and this was like thirty seven years after my attack with Bundy I thought I'd put it all together and I raised my family and I had a full career, and I thought that I had put all that Bundy stuff, so deep inside, that! Hardly ever even thought about it, and then I was some things happen at work and all of those memories came flooding back and.

And I thought I was going crazy, because PTSD is just horrible and someone talk me into seeing a psychologist, And so I try to figure out. How will I find a psychologist can't just tell somebody things that you've never told anybody. You know how do you somebody that you can talk to, and I looked in the in the on the computer and and a psychologist, just drop page at me, it was Doctor David from all of those years ago, and I did? He would remember me, and I thought if he does, then I don't have to explain all of it 'cause. He knows I was a little bit muddy, and so I send him an email and started seeing him, and he did remember me, and we talked about him coming to my and talking to my roommate. Me yelling at him and hating him. He says he says I do remember you. I went to your apartment and talk to your roommate. You didn't like me very much. This is your

right. I didn't like you very much, but I'm giving you one more chance and he helped me. First of all, just explain and put into words what had happened. Anne do. That caused all of the emotions to cause actual physical symptoms of things that had happened with Monday. I got rashes and I got an ammonia and I got bleeding gums and noses and things that which is kind of bizarre psychosomatic, Things that happened, but also, more importantly, took me on a trip back to the canyon, to the exact spot where that attack. It happened and let me kind of feel whatever there was to it.

There and and that kind of helped make a closure to the PTSD stuff, helped fill it up and let me feel like it really was, not my fault. I realized that If I had come forward and gone to the police, he probably would have just moved impact of his Volkswagen and sold it and moved to you know some someplace else. Other people still would have died, maybe not the Utah people, but my coming forward would not have stopped him and I didn't do you feel guilty about that, and it took you that long because you know too much time with it, but berry in the beginning didn't ask any questions, but when you did bring bring up Bundy, he wasn't as say positive. At least that was your take on it at least that's what it look like that he just did know how to interpret He thought you were in harm's way and Doctor David told him. No, they do not put

self in harm's way. It is the fault of TED Indian. No one else. He stalked people, he picked people. He. New when people were vulnerable. So again, Doctor David brought to the point where you went back to the scene of the crime. He got to the point where he knew exactly where that was and brought you through that. But was more profound in this- is the most amazing a part of of portion of book, which is incredible in its entire t? Is that he get you to recall before you go to the scene. The things that are missing in what we talked about, the things that it exactly TED Bundy said to you that I think were even worse: then the assault itself in that the psychological terror. This person imposed upon you and so before we go. I just want to for our audience

and I'll read it. If, if you don't mind, is that he said some things to you as he was. He was straddling you on the ground, smashing your thighs smothering you. Smiling and watching you die. You say Finally, he let you breathe, he said so tell me: how was that, for you? Did you like that? Huh. Do you like it when I pinch your nose and and mouth shut like this and you they cut your air supply until you ached for air, any it is it better? For you like this against sing you from breathing. Would you prefer to suffocate. And he put his hands around your throat and started squeezing so Doctor David is correct in in telling you very forcefully that,

couldn't believe the courage rather than the shame, he should have felt as the courage and the strength that you had to eat even carry on period, let alone feel any guilt about, things you didn't do or. Didn't do soon enough for didn't, say so again, incredible journey is that you went through to be able to meet this doctor David, and this is the person that helped you through. It. Certainly wasn't the justice being served, with TED Bundy. Was it No, it wasn't, is not really about TED Bundy. The book is really about victims and the way victims are: are. Treated and remembered people, remember the TED Bundy's in Jeffrey Dahmer's, but they don't remember the victims on the remember that

the crime isn't over. Just because the assault is or it could go on an effect people forever. It is almost an with sorry go ahead. Does all both things going on in the world now, where girls on college campus? these are being assaulted and they still not daring to come forward even forty years later, and I hope that my book would kind of inspire people to dare to come forward and know that it's you feel better when you come forward now I wait a br that stigma is to have more people coming forward, absolutely and as well that you This really is a story of coming together in your own family as well, because your daughters didn't know this secret. I can't even imagine keeping any kind of secret like this at all how hard it would be in and how it affected your behavior and your treat of your daughters, and they didn't know when realize that till you would reveal this.

Secret to them. So tell us, just as you do this it is a story of. Love and unconditional love and understanding. Once everybody gets the. The assistance of Doctor David and other people into the family, realizing what you have on through in its entirety,. Yeah. So it has a happy ending yeah. And in your this book is tell us about these sort of, The genesis of this book, how did it come to be that Ann rule was involved in writing the forward and just tell A little bit about the book itself from the book self wasn't intended to be a book? I never ever thought I would write a book. I thought I was being really great. Just by telling the ten people on my list of close people that fine, I ended up telling

David in my immediate family, I still haven't, told my mother until the book was ready to come right out already printed and real before my siblings and my mother found out, but the the thing about it was that at I I talked to different people about, should I should I publish this book? Because I had a feeling that it could help somebody else, because part of the PTSD experiences such a feeling of loneliness, like you, were the only the person on the entire planet that can possibly feel the way that you're feeling- and I thought that. Are not, and if I can help other people to feel like they are not the only person who can feel stealing that Ok, that would maybe help somebody somewhere and so on. Talking to some people saying maybe I had a published this book. What happened is I journaling Dr David had me start really I thought. Maybe if I just write down what happened to me, then, maybe don't have to

tell anybody. I can just write it down and throw it away and I'll feel better, but that journaling became the book, and some people told me quick to sell very many, because who really is going to be interested in a forty year. Old rape would be kind of like how many people want to hear about somebody who survived Jack, the ripper and I'm thinking I would tell me, I wanna know how they found Jack the Ripper and how they got away and what they told the family and all of that stuff. I would be very interested, so I think that. Maybe I would publish it and then the publishing process is so complicated and so ridiculously difficult. Just plain difficult. And someone told me that maybe I would have a better time selling my book to a publisher if I wrote it as fiction kind of just what. If this would happen, And I thought no, you know I spent my whole life, pretending this never happens, and now I've got the courage and decided to

and they want me to pretend it didn't happen. So it's been a c, for forty years I'll just keep it being a Acecr, for forty more years and who cares, but I spent so much time in enerji on it. But I thought somebody on the planet should read this book and if only one person could read it that person she be an rule because she new TED Bundy and she wrote the stranger beside me and she's been my kind of Milo secret hero and and so I tried to contact her. I couldn't, but I contacted her daughter and her daughter offered me a con actually said you know we have a publishing company. Is it no? I we know that he says we're going to do all kinds of good stuff. I'm going to get my mom to write your forward and she did. It was probably the last thing that that Sweet lady, did before she passed away last year, yeah yeah, tragic, tragic yeah I got to,

speak to Anne Rule in two thousand and five and just an amazing honor to be able to speak with her and she's so important. Not only the true crime, genre just to justice itself and VIC, apology where, where the victim is recognized, I mean that's, an rules. Hallmark was to have the Some stories told Before that it really wasn't, I mean really and so anyway, I want to Let's say yeah, that's very interesting. Ann rule got so involved an rightfully. So this book is just incredible and of course she would be again. This is there something that Andrew will be interested in hearing and reading. Was your book itself too. So I think it was sing for an rule to be reading about a survivor of again after she. Told the story, and there was so many other people that came forward claiming that they were they

met TED or they escaped had narrowly so again, a very, very good testament of how Fort in this story is an what you had to say. And your animal good that she would validate me apps part of the reason should not tails, because you think people don't believe you anyway. She believed me and I liked that and I think more shortly to Doctor David was another guy that gave you a lot of validation to again your story being so incredible and Again, he wasn't sort of a fan. He was there to help you out, but he knew the story it in its how profound it was as well that we're dealing with. This kind of person, TED Bundy, the most again, most notorious infamous serial killer, probably ever and The story had and the dilemma he had with somebody that had repressed this story for so long like yourself and then head.

Come to him and So it is an amazing story of this app, really working this psychology, stuff and counseling, and it's pretty amazing story. I want to thank you for coming on, want to We were coming on and talking about this now, do you have a facebook to people communicate with you a facebook? Do you have a a website? How would people. Contact. You are look for more information if so desired. I am on Facebook under Rhonda, Stapley, there's also a website. I survived. Tedbundy dot com Have some purchase information and links to Amazon? Well, that's great I want to thank you very much Rhonda for coming on and talking about, I survived TED Bundy, the attack escape and PTSD. Change my life. It is been a very big pleasure,

Thank you very much incredible book and thank you for taking the time to come on and we. Deal all those things that only you could have known about one of them all incredible, kill there's an all time. So, thank you very much. You have a great evening. Ok, thank you! Damn thank you. Rhonda goodnight.

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