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you are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him, Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, her night stalker dating came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killer into crime history through murder, with your host journalist, Ann Arbor Dan, is you have to get anything? every once in a great while a genuine murder mystery unfolds before the eyes of the american Public Trust story of Susan Powell and murdered boys. Charlie Braden is the

only case it rivals the job in Ramsay saga in the annals of true crime. When the pretty boy I knew tat her mother went missing in December. Two thousand and nine the media was swept up in the story With lenses and microphones trained on Susan Susan's, huh. When George, you said he had. No idea. What happened to his young wife that he and the boys had been camping in the middle of a snow storm. The next three years, bombshell by bombshell. The story would reveal more shocking secrets. Josh father. Steve was sexually obsessed with Susan would ultimately be, convicted of unspeakable perversion, ashes. Brother, Michael would commit suicide, and in the most stunning event at the mall Josh power would murder is too little boys and kill himself with brutality beyond belief. It will be eleven years December six, since Susan Cox, power disappeared,

her story is still unfolding. A definitive up aid. On the case, will IRAN Abc twenty twenty on Friday November, the sixth, the neo, city crew came to Seattle in early March, Enemy Rebecca just as the city was walking down for covet the cruel. Therefore, the very important court trail involving the Washington State Department of Health and Human services and the risk possible in the depths of Charlie and Braden. There are, Other events happening this week that could postpone the hearing of the twenty twenty programme November. Sixth, the book there were featuring a ceiling is, if I can't have you, update Susan Power, mysterious disappearance and the murder of her children, with my special Guess, journalist, an author, Rebecca Moors. Come back to the programme and thank you so much for this interview, Rebecca Morris, hiking, so great to be with you again

thank you so much. She had always great to have you end in considering the developments. In this case, we felt it important that people revisit this case. Once again, thank you so much for coming on talking about it. Let's talk about just some of the things that job I alluded to about ABC. Twenty he twenty on Friday. Tell us a little bit about The urine action with a b c and before we talk about the the court case, the court trial that they were in town in Seattle for to cover. So, let's, let's talk about your experience with maybe she's twenty twenty show Susan Cops Powell case and somewhere in the last few years, the fan, You decided to start using. You don't put her maiden name in there, because especially trying to distance themselves from the power

so these day. She's cultures and colleagues, power and the cases really never been guenaud out of it public eye or away from the media. Much because explained over this eleven years. This is a story that just keeps unfolding, and you know we don't even northward. You know, there's an end to it now. So it's been, it's been on expenditure, take of television shows before the investigation discovery, channel and h alone and I've worked, I've been before, rather with other other production companies than other things added spin. The supply couched in the last year from

salt Lake City Television station, but but twenty twenties done some of the best coverage already years, any right they wanted revisited, and this was of course all the planning live before covered, but I've worked with twenty twenty before TED Bundy Programme a year or two ago, so I mean it will do is interesting because they take Seattle I mean literally, must have been laughed playing in and out of fear will be covered. very early March and As usual is production crews networks? Do they read it at a space in downtown Seattle was big loft were we could set up

the city was already dead. I mean it. We could even find a rough transfer to have a meal ad and it'll be really professional. The way. And they were also obviously interviewing Betty many other people, I'm I'm I'm sure, just a tiny part of this but they always talked about. This isn't parents attorney and render, and I'm sure people in Utah and one of the things about you know both books and television shows. Is you have to find something new to say because done before, but I think you know this was timed to coincide with the court case. The same producer, they came out from twenty twenty had been here, the weaker to be for two

and the jury trial on the wrongful death showed that we're gonna talk about and that trial was interrupted because of cold. It. But now we have a decision about so it is just as it was justified all time I was scheduled to do other tv programmes in the spring. and they everything mostly got postpone. I did I interviewed for two programme another stories where they are local crew in Seattle, and we sat the car transformed everybody war. As a mask too, people in me, producer was on other end of a cell phone asking questions or on soon so just you know, it was possible to still produce programmes.

During covered. But you know, crews, couldn't travel and it was just stood. It's just one of your horse, millions of small things that have been affected by by the pandemic. now when we talked about to mention the Washington State Department of Health and Human services, tell us what was the heart of this in terms of what was what were the issues that were addressed that this and what was the result, and, of course this is what. the media, was also interested in part of the new part of the story. The newest part of the story is this: one. shoot and I've updated it also in in the book. If I can't have you it's funny, you every year there's been an update to the back of a book, because so many things of him

this is. This was brought because, of course, there was never an arrest in choosing Cox pals disappearance. Her husband, assessed at two percent, interest was never charge. Nobody was ever charge and I learned a lot, the last couple of years about literally called no body case cases nobody cases? When there's no body found Susan's Urban been found? It often means that prosecutors don't bring charge. just because the best way of getting a conviction is here. You know the evidence, you know from a body being found awe and So without that, attorneys. Sometimes you have to get created

and Embroider Seattle attorney, whose motto automotive cases over the years, usually pot brain the charges for families, the prosecutors, don't brain and she are one of the only things they could try to do this to find justice was too Josh outsmart around too, to be able to take charge him with anything Oh they made frankly what I think is really a very good case against the state Washington for the. When when Susan sense, trolling Braden when word protective custody, so, as you know after Susan disappeared Josh

in a very quickly within a week packed up his home you'd think he'd stay, I'm not sure why. But he didn't act of this house and the kids moved to his fathers and pure our Washington, where they grew up and Then you have to state involved in trying to keep track of this man and his family, because washing state was still and was now now had some responsibilities because the children, eventually when custodial care and while you talk, was still conducting an investigation of accidents disappearance. While you know

saw all the records and it was really I don't know. I've ever been shot so sharp as when I read those records about what Charlie and broaden the minds. They lead that last couple of years of their life, and they think we talked about this on this programme before they were taken from Josh's custody when his father steeply, you mentioned when charged with both pornography envoy arisen, so they were taken from the house. They were temporarily placed with their pets. Grandparents, seasons can't. Ah, as Austria so they were under the protection of the Department of Health and Human services in Washington State or what commonly called cps Trout,

protected services, Josh still had visitation, went them twice a week, which was a wax, I think would be fair to call it that and the The protection they did her didn't get during the last year and a half of their life is, is what was it question Here and what was the basis for the wrongful get sued and if you'd like me to explain the details of what that was, I can go into detail. I absolutely do not click while they there was a corset, caseworker, who was always accompanied. You know she drove the boys to and from their visitations with Josh, because

because Josh was so much in the news. On the other hand, at the building where he usually would have had his custody visit. So there would have been some security. Some staff around you know other parent. coming and going to see their children. They, the parents, didn't want him having his visitations there. He was just very strange, so was allowed to have one of his visitations every week at the home minister, who lived across the street from Josh's Father Steve, who you know had taken an interest, the family and was trying to help Josh. So visitations were there and then, along the way, the state decided that a second visitation during the week. Josh could have done this

Rental, home job. Should whether the house, not far from his father's house empty put. You know, acoustics of furniture. and was basically tending to live there and the boys would have one of their visits there and that's where they died ultimately because they waste ahead of the case worker that data the worry twelve. Two thousand twelve: he shut the door and her face, but what where I found out when I looked at, fortunately in time when I was rewriting the book, is that on the boys it had physically

as part of their being in protected custody. They had strange way she was on her body, they bodies, they told their grandfather that their that Josh Nude with them. they were obviously in a house where they were in a house that whether Grandfather State Powell was producing An enormous trawls pornography employer and you know who knows what they were exposed to and in that sense the boys once they went to live with their grandparents Chuck found them once they were taking about together. They were foreign six years old at the time,

one was trying to drown the other in the bath drive and check that it was not not again. There was not a game, something head so damaged those boys between the day, their mother disappeared in two thousand and nine, and when they died in two thousand and twelve just you know, they had really been damaged and most likely molested living with her father and grandfather. They drew picture of awe Pinkerbloo, so brave New is the youngest drew a picture,

you know killing telling it an adult stay away from him, then not to mess with him. They also worth remembering some things about last night. You know their mother's life, Josh should always said you know he took the boys camping winter camping. Is it it's real? thing in your time, even if its below freezing blizzard and then he left Susan at home. The boy said and made any drew pictures that their mother was sleeping in the back of the ban and that they left her out. You know in the desert, with the crystals with Iraq, the boys will really interested looking rocks and things, and so they were remembering war, but they were physically

emotionally, they acted out in March, after their mother died, and they were so fortunate. how to love of Julian Chuck Cox the last couple of years, but but they have definitely been harmed, and that was the basis of the wrongful death suit and again, this is one of. Very few paths that family can take its criminal charges or never brought against somebody, and so that was the basis of the law should and the fact that you know Cox who, by his career was he was a young, a creation. This

the gate he knew about investigations he knew about and by age you know he knew the staff and was very proactive, and he warned especially you talk. Lisbon warned Cps in Washington State for many many months. The charges. hurt. Those boys and nobody believed him. So when they finally brought their first attempt at bringing a for. There was this just by a lower court, finally was able to proceed and the What I thought was really fascinating. Am I dont know if this happens with other cases, but but an

Brenda and her team were able to point to how many seconds Charlie Engraven suffered once their father close the door on the caseworker worker may asked first. Certainly, you no dollar amount for every minute that each boy suffered because we know evidence at a shame that the first thing will Josh prepared for this. He bought camps, gasoline he'd, given away things. He said. check, email saying goodbye, he emptied his bank account he acts. and he was prepared for when those boys came at Sunday afternoon, Superbowl Sunday, two thousand and twelve. He shut the door on the caseworker he struck.

Boys in the head with an ax, he bore gasoline amendment himself and the house exploded in could figure out how many but wait at least seven minute those boys suffered before they died. and so the we want amount was, was tied to that three trial here in person? Washington was was interrupted by Kobe. There was some discussion about God. do they just start all over get a different jury here. You know today reach some tentative settlement. But everybody really wanted to continue the trial, so it picked up months later. And ensure the video about is is on Youtube. You know everybody just just the Cox. There

The attorneys and the judge in everybody's mass- it's like another world, to see a trial going on during during covered. Witnesses and the jury awarded on more than anybody predicted more than was being stay warded. Ninety eight million dollars to the family now that's been appealed and even the judge in that case couldn't believe that it was such a big award and its ban on its been cut in bite by two thirds, so I believe its thirty eight million now, but basically the state washed and has, as a jury has agreed that the

the boys could have their lives could have been an works, and I think that such an important message for other states and and other courts again. Yes, that's as an opportunity to stop for a second for these messages here is my business, you work hard, but you don't have a huge marketing budget and you're, always looking for new ways to find customers. Have you ever thought about audio here, listening to and add right now, aren't you introducing audio go a new online platform that lets you run out of the top had cast and digital radio stations don't have a radio at will make one for you sign up for a free today at audio, go dot com, audio, go audio advertising made simple. We talked about this incredible juries settlement.

or the recommended settlement them. Thirty, eight million dollars so in credible validation of of of what had and and other responsibility, Washington, State Department of Health, human services was very very interesting out of that is the court case. That was the impetus in the or in the custody battle, Josh believe That he could gain custody of children hopefully, but some was conditions for him to try game, custody of his children, and that was the psycho sexual examination. Tell us above the this right. the reason for this end and what this effect this evaluation and its results, and the court case result I am what you believe and Chop believed was

TAT was a result of this court decision. That was that led to draw should in terrible decision to kill the children than himself when we make one quick correction, the good judge reduced the award to thirty two point: eight million from from from ninety eight million. the decision that led to that seem to make Josh corner a key. He had been off the mistake that he was gonna win custody, but I I don't know him, he never would have there been Alger, but that the last minute that sort of turnover then the letter

is that what at the last minute during this custody, when he in the Caucasus, were fighting for custody, the boys on the Utah investigators pad. informed the attorneys in Washington state. Then the state arguing for the cop causes that child pornography had been found on Josh Josh's computer in Utah. It had been there at the time Susan disappeared There is probably a lot more on that computer. They ve never been able to. They still never been able to break through all the firewall from all the coding and everything, but they found some kind of child pornography and its wash

stated known. You taught no map for two or three years it there save a ball. They didn't show that information, while this was going on, but they told her the attorneys this in February two thousand and twelve, and that you know put some new condition on charge and he was to keep us terribly terribly angry and frustrated by that he'd gone into court on that on that very day, feeling very optimistic telling people you know he's got really optimistic. He was gonna go home with his chin. on that day and then woody hairs is that now you know There are some conditions you have to meet, and one is because, because we know now about your computer you're going

I have to have what it's called a cycle: sexual exam, so that is beside for more in depth. Psychological exam cycle, sexual exam, when I spoke to my few waited, could give one to add to it a female defended, I don't know, but with a male defended

there you know, penile response is measured when they are shown different pornographic images- and I was you know very seem to be the tipping point and Chuck Cox told everybody. You, though this is not good. I'm really worried about Josh now and so within Josh had begun a plant. I don't think he planned this before. I think that's very much the thing that got him thinking about will the only thing he could do to get either I mean really hated Susan's parents hated the woman church which Susan it was still a member of the Caucasus. Were members Ivan.

he'd grown up and the charge, but had laughed at the pages had so much Hayden Emily planned this without as far as we know, without telling anybody and met again in a painful, build cleaning out, his bank account leaving instructions with a couple of people about what needed to be done. Taking things too, with storage area you're, getting away the kids, toys Somebody been watching him I they might have, but nobody was watching him, that reminds me so much as after Susan disappeared and he was stolen in Utah for a couple weeks and then moving to wash and state they didn't, to be watching hammer trailing hammer. You no backtracking a bit, but the day after Susan disappeared when they taken his stand. The search

you know what did the SALT Lake City Airport and ready to car and was missing for twenty four hours. I mean they. Nobody was really keeping camped on him You know it check that the told me a lot of things. One day I mean he used to but when he knew the case, worker had picked up the boys in when taken them to this house. That was Josh was running. check was in force, be anywhere near it, but he might it'll dry by two countries that everything is as it should be, but army I think it was the psychosexual exam sexual got really put Josh in a corner and Chuck everybody in this is that he's really Josh

we cornered now George does not behave well when, when he's Corner and on key he plodded this murder suicide, and you know I don't think that he is partially. No, he didn't. He said a couple catholic kicks Lit could be in jeopardy. Does good bye to his attorney and to assist her in? that was pretty much what about to them. One of the most amazing vivid and horrifying scenes that pops out when you read this is is about, Elizabeth Griffin Hall, these social worker, that is the person that delivers the children to these visits, You describe that and in that

day that she drops those kids out, but also just before that there is talk of the surprise. She Well, I'm in the Caucasus. Here about the surprise, tell us about this surprised and before we talk about the actual. Fine day when Griffith Hall goes illiteracy, kids and tell us about that. Well, You know, I think about her a lot probably much. I think about Susan unlocking from the boys at at the time. I believe I'd. For many years. I was the only interview she gave. It was probably you know like a year after the event. I think she's done. You know one or two other interviews now, but you know she's drift.

Just to a terrible situation. The surprise was on you know she arrived with the boys and as they re on ahead of her children are They ran up the sidewalk to the door of the house and joy Was there with the door open and he greeted them and before she could get in? He shut the door on her face, but she heard him say: Charlie. I've got a surprise for you and

You know you sent me in a motor you or I do you know who knows what he meant, but it's a chilling when you know that you know it later is just is just chilling. I've got a surprise for you and one of them the next thing she she could smell carefully, and you know she had formed a real, a row bond with these. These kids and drifted those several minutes a couple of times a week where she would drive them and be present and in old shifted just a horrendous.

Experience for her when she does go to the to the door. You you, I know it's hard to talk about it, but the the exchange between her. an Josh is just. Ok, all right. I think if you could give us that exchange, because it's absolutely amazing when she calls nine one one Oh, my gosh, Croatia that those shell excruciating seven minutes, so please tell us well, children are born ahead and he, Turns and smile at Lisbon, our grim smokes. That's why I think she said, and then he shut the door. She heard him say I price for you. Try

then pretty cheap pounds on the door. She says Josh. If you let me in Georgia to let me and she, I can smell gasoline ion so not natural gas, but carefully, and she proposes in the car so when he would open the door and apply she goes to her car Which is in the driveway and get your phone I think she does is call her office and she's instructed to call nine one one. and at some point she also knows to move a problem because it something's gonna happen. So she

you call him the driveway. She calls nine one one and that call in a transcript of that call is easy to find on you to anywhere on the internet. It it's just harrowing, because she gets a gentleman who forget how many years had been on the job. But you know he will he wasn't meal and he you know she tries twigs, what's going on, she's been locked out of this house during a custody visit and she smiled. gasoline and You know it's hard to read in here, because we think of taking a. How can you be so stupid he's asking her what what what color is your car? What is your license wait. What are you who are you? What are you doing there

and then he actually tell her. I'm sorry, you know I'm sorry lady, but we have to respond to emergency calls first, and she says this is a life and death emergence and still asking you know various questions and says that he'll firms, and eventually we you can hear of fire In the background it goes on, for it will seem forever, but it's over, I believe it's at least three minutes. And I don't think she's still on the phone with him when the house explodes explode pretty quickly, and he gave an interview later on. That course that was just

experience and he he was following protocol, and he said he did know No, she was telling him loose the plutonium this is Josh Powell. Vicious judge powers is a suspect in its wider disappearance and later he knew Josh Powell one, but he adjusted register with what she was telling him you know, if you can probably tell I mean, I have sympathy for people who were caught in there I don't know what you're responsible, except for Georgia, but if my sympathy shows through well, you know so bad. I you know I. I think it was terrible, terrible set of circumstances, and you know I I know that I was with

I'm not I dont know if she ever went back to work. I don't think she went back to work full time, but she or her supervisor told me later she no longer takes in other hard cases she in a phd and with you, no more qualified person. You think up to do in order being a case worker on something like this, but you know who who could have thought of of the terror the charge planned for that day, so the house exploded. She But she was there in the police and fire units arrived and the hope Well, Sir

burned to the ground? Pretty manage some of the framework to bear, so I've been watching the story for a few years, I'm kind of Hoping solution will be found or there be some kind of an ending published, there's like ending you know, the still doesn't have an ending, but they are. I was driving on a free where, in Seattle, when I heard on the radio that the house had exploded and burned, and I thought I was gonna Grandpa, How could I not amend realise and then to find out that it would give us planned? It wasn't some accident, so I hope I went to the house the next day when stood working on the story and When you see I have to go you after you have to go there. You have to go to the scene of all these things and,

And already there were in purple women, some offence fence around the House proposed Susan's, favorite, color and, and it was just the terrifying dole and think that, unfortunately, the jury it went on with a lot of people and with just a family. It is this that could have been prevented. This could have been prevented if people had stated paid him, more could Josh and the threat he presented and awe and threat his children,

thus users as US opportunities stop for a second foot. When you talk to Adele Technologies, adviser you get someone who understands there's an hour to listen and can provide small business solutions that make you feel truly heard for solutions by one by until the problem for Poland it via today, eight seven seven asked down these messages that we talk to that there was only one real person responsible, the dispatcher that basically and then she had to call another dispatcher to tell her about now. The building of the home, the rented home, was with the three people in it, the two children there were in her care occasionally or lately. But the thing is it please Believed that Josh's father had something to do with this particular disappearance and also Josh's brother,

Fascinating ass, that the police. Try to endeavour to connect Steve and to connect brother MIKE with this, tell us a little bit about this endeavoured to try to do that and what results with in terms of- Charges for Steve and What happens to brother MIKE? You know. This is something that I think. everybody still trying to sort out and the Euro in the case of choosing disappearance. Commuter is closed. That was closed in two thousand and thirteen, but there have been some private searched for her and there's some people, investigators that help chalk and basically

they tried to chart where did Josh DR during that twenty four always hear them Will they know the main target it? They know you drove eight hundred miles, so they looked closely at where would have gone if it's four hundred miles in one direction and the four hundred miles back to leave the car at the airport, and in the EU, not until after Josh and the kids were dead, did they find out more about both Steve and his brother MIKE's, where they were where they work during that period of time, in always easy to assume that when we found out so much about Stephen, creepy was and how he went. Susan and Josh you ve was sexually tasked with his law

He ain't I read every page is I think it's a twenty thousand peach journal. Let's keep it kept open years, and you remind me of what you know really. The naive and mature juvenile with white, because it was all about his obsession with Susan and King well, but he thought she'd the boys Josh and then he would marry her raised the kid and but we though he followed, Thirsty, followed her around two hour with his camera when she was looking like pictures ever legs

saved her Tampa when she's living in his have just all kinds of growing bp stuff. So it was easy enough to think that maybe he had some all in her disappearance or go to me. That would be the opposite of Steve Behaviour. He was so in what first with her I don't. I ve never really thought that he would have helped get rid of her and in fact they eventually prove that he was in Washington State the day she disappeared in Utah rom. Some people still challenge that, but but there's apps no evidence, and then we found out later in two thousand and thirteen that Michael Joshua's brother.

Who was a graduate student in Minnesota, often lived again in others, the fat, their state power of common fuel, Washington, work has grown kid in, except for one daughter who escaped to a more normal life, most of us adopt children live there, often on overtime and it's just kind of a really weird place, but Michael usually in either pew our poor. The sooner or later, but the An investigator happened to be it a salvage yard in Oregon. When

the salvage you're gonna were abandoned. Cars are got a phone call from somebody in Minnesota. Well, it was Michael Powell wondering if this car was still there that he'd left there a couple years before and curses investigators standing there. I mean it freaky coincidental area, even though you Topic we now know that might Powell had Probably helped Josh in some way to get rid of Susan, and on his way there. So there's a route or the listeners shoe. Maybe dont know, though, Mr Massey United States very well ties, huge landmass and one the things they looked at were abandoned. Mine

will there ten thousand abandoned mines in Utah summer boarded up some art then there is. There is a route, a northern route where you can drive, from SALT Lake City to you, Washington, on Canada, straight a straight and this town where the cell Richard was was on that path, and so then. The thinking became ok. Josh put Susan somewhere on the night good that he took her in the boys out in advance, but then, a couple days later he moved her body and his brother helped him of the body, and so she must have been in this way When a car or maybe not, I'm not, I don't think they ever

forgive me or found dna in in the rental car back her when they finally took the dogs to salvage yard, were MIKE's car was the dogs alerted on his car? They didn't find specific way her dna, but they did a word true there having been corpse in the mining and so the police. Then you tell please go to visit Michael Power in Minnesota. Where he's a graduate student and they question and before of course, and he's very much his brothers fender well by now his his brother's dead. But he still is his brothers defender and and they let him know that they have his collar. And all

you're the date the trash died and killed. The kids Michael Powell jump off a building Minnesota suicide and so that it is clear that he helped, and so now they ve done. You know they ve done some searches along that road. That is a different part of Utah I right or incidentally, then, where Josh said he'd gone winter campaign with the kids, which was more South West, you talk and where they did their original searches. So it's it's really interesting. I found

email a memo about, when they went to tell Steve I'll buy now was in prison for child pornography. Your boy arisen, and they may be, went to tell him first of all that you know that, Josh and the boys were dead and that, a year later, about his son, Michael and his in response to them. The only rational saw was anchor hissing cranking for a few days and the sort of history, his reaction, and so he also had defended Josh at the very end- and I am one of the few people would think that

didn't the Josh and further still Powell washing will include in nobody in a way. Nor was it a new tab reduces dispute, but his sons they knew Had a big mouth and they knew they were known, he wrote everything down. I don't think they ever told him. What really happened. I ever hunch he didn't know where Susan was and that we do not really know what his sons a job, because I don't think they trusted him. So then it's interesting When he died, when people died of a heart attack on a couple of years ago, You know everybody thought. Oh you know the last person taken the secrets to his grave, but an iron. I discovered we didn't know where Susan Wax.

You you say that do you believe he had any idea, but with police Friday this. In turn stick a more than interesting that they had so many conversations with the sun around that time. the disappearance and before and you also right- which very interesting is Steve's person- family history, which seems to be have these three parallels. Maybe It is telling me will, but about that as well. You dear, right. Those your very interesting kind of the kind of five lights to this is that in the last few days before Susan disappeared, Josh was a judge

Yet, most of his time, in the last four years in the basement of their house in West Valley City, you talk you know armies computer version on his phone any they know he talked to his father several times. even on the day she disappeared. Who called for a pen a recipe. Susan friends always reach, The who needs a recipe for pancakes and you, don't Josh, never ever cooked. He never did anything, and he you know his pipe for comes both boys wasn't out of love.

It was out of power. He wanted to win, he wanted to win, he wanted to have them and win an and beat you know whose parents you know in women's, but he was. He didn't talk to his father alive and it being nice to know or interesting to know more about about. I I just don't think steep would say: well here's how you get rid of her, but but you know maybe we'll find out something but one of the things I learned doing this book then that I now is. It is a part of everything everything I've tried everything. Our research is how important family history You know people like Josh are not you know. They are raised

your raised by people who were also in troubled and when I looked at the family history of the powers, I mean it with worry away. It was almost inevitable. You'd think inevitable that Josh we'd be dangerously troubled state power as a child. I his picking had one or two siblings,

and they were completely in a move around and tossed around all the time between their divorce parents and grandparents- and this was in the Pacific Northwest and yet you know not no real security and the steep was punished in all. I believe he had by his grandparents once when they found out that he told other children that had been taken away from one parent, and I guess his grandparents said You'Re- never going to see your mother again something like that. But they were you no secrets. Richard part of the story, and they are part of this terrible family dysfunction, and so he grew up with a lot of instability and what was in all he was raised Mormon and he actually,

went on a mission to South America his children. By that time, children never participated in that in that part of the of the women in Europe. Years when you go on a mission, but he had and he married his white care was a good one. And they seem to have to start over kind of average life and then, we know in one thing that I said check with such a great investigator, so he drove to spoken

one day and he was able to get a copy of the divorce records between Steve Power and his wife, which, from the early nineteenth nineties, I believe it was so that was fascinating background for me, because I. because there have trial childhood was, you know they were going through a custody battle with their children. Five children Stephen his. Why early Ninetys So carry his wife is, of course, including every negative thing. She can say about Steve and unstable, saying things about her, but she also,

includes quite a bit about the children how the children were afraid of Steve how how much he worked too. You know make his children take. Sides were any one came to live with him. There was the one daughter was old enough tat. She could get out of the house when apparent for divorce another daughter her mother. She was free to send the week in its thieves that her brothers had stricter good and touched her one day against her will, when all kinds of things also met divorce documents

A Josh's childhood pulling a knife on his mother once and threatening her and there's another brother who you know had made new Susan and weird violent, drawing it loose and he turned to Steve turned his children against their mother, except for one of the daughters, and you know we had a joke that that the steep House and Calaboose Fort Power we called for power because you swear here, the kids you know and for while Charlie Brain were well part of that, but somebody that I have yet to be. over the years who say, psychiatry

and did a lot of work interviewing serial killers to find out more about their childhood she she told me that she never mad. A killer serial killer, that didn't didn't, have very disrupted and was not abuse themselves as children, let's not per second just for these measures,

is yours. My business, you work hard when you dont have a huge marketing budget and you're, always looking for new ways to find customers. Have you ever thought about audio here, listening to and add, right now, aren't you introducing audio go a new online platform that lets you run ads on the top had cast and digital radio stations don't have a radio at will make one for you sign up for a free today, an audio go dot. Com audio, go audio advertising made simple, but we talked about Steve. the most dramatic thing I think and relates to the title of this book as well, something that steed had told his children twenty years before, regarding when people can't stay together. if you like, I could read it. But what can you tell?

what are you essentially said here? What did you think you could read it yeah you to sit still Told is that sometimes people can't let go and murder a loved one is an urgent need to think of a pay I'd telling their children, and I think they were teenagers. This is at the time in the divorce. I believe that he said you know sometimes You can't let go you wanna get even and if you, if I can't happy nobody canary credible what now talked about. You talk about the incredible effort, the Chuck Cox and Judy, but Chuck especially can't let this go so he as Europe,

these still searching for his daughter. He is still investigating. He can't let this go Kenny. Well know tat I want to say they are on the other, strong faced and on it. Away, easy to admire them and respect them and they do they produce. Page in all in any television cover such events or local coverage. You know they are there all the time, there they are when there is anything in court, and yet you know they have they buy their children their grandchildren they have happen.

Ah they somehow. I have found a balance and I'm not an acceptance. But they they find a way two to go on and I mean I just seen and witnessed the herd truck over the years, and he has told me stories the term one of them was the day after the fire. The police chiefs were fairly city, where Susan disappeared,

came to develop and he and trucks, and the car across from other house had been excluded. The fidgit the day after the fire and truck told me that Maxwell cried and told check. You know you were right. You were right you to warn us you alive, Josh's gonna do something, but I never saw I think I can show you no cure up on, particularly in the early days when, when she was missing in others are real strength to him that he, I believe

But he believes that they need ever know what happened to Susan, but what I think it's gonna appear and yourself and sleep actually got a search, but they ve got a couple people which can help them and have done some cat continue to try to investigate and things and this I think this is this trial for the wrongful Deb food. There is an awful lot that was that came out because of that, and I think there's something there. Still

looking out I'll, be at the eyes never been able to really get into both Michael and enjoy should computer, because the two of them were doing an awful lot of back and forth when at the time Susan disappeared in an course afterwards, and they just can't seem to crack Is there a reason why they cared crack? Those computers is. Is this something that MIKE New or did. Is there because attempts when you only hear stories of that of somebody being, some sort of a computer export or at least gaining somebody's expertise to be able to wipe out records. Well, I guess, ah you he was vital it this particularly bride, but he had spent time

with computers, and apparently I mean maybe even sent the computers to the company that makes the software that they launched two to block things and make they haven't been able to, so I think it was just the ceiling is just many many idea of the software programs that kid, but I'm really surprised that Turkey, I experts, have been able to find out because I mean the potentially it would say were Susan is, I would imagine they discussed well, you know if I left her, maybe the next day job he told his brother. I left her here. We have to go here, could get her right.

But I'm really I've always been said. Where was sheep for that one tat first day well with the hair. because you are probably was way out in the desert. The key, then, with a rental car, gotta remover, probably with somebody could have even been somewhere not far outside the city You talk about two that serve this an Brenner. She didn't buy into the idea that prosecution couldn't prosecutors case, partly because no body and the crime because of other difficulties, What was her take on on that Why did she believed essentially that they could have got a conviction? Well shaped

and I went to my my few, my few. She she's helped other families with no body cases and in fact, I write about her quite appeared in my new book, a business about current foreman boy missing from his great scorn, Portland Oregon, we just Ass, the tenth anniversary of that case and he hasn't been found, and so this her work with the Cox family happened at about the same time the tyrant disappeared, but an heels. That's you know, as I said, prosecutors can drag their feet,

ah there I did find somebody who is kind of the expert and nobody cases could keep a form of federal prosecutors who keeps track of of no body cases that are successfully prosecuted and without a body. But an really really believed that she'll work ways to get around this in this case on the fact that I think the thing that made the case for her with here was an energy being new suit of Washington. That was supposed to be doing. A job protecting these kids? Now, in a lot of no body cases, there is no anti t like them to bring along for debt, sit with side that doesn't that data

exist, but in this case you know somebody was supposed to be protecting both boys and within our Trans did in fact. Ah there were errors committed and in their work, and it's all it's really frightening to read the document, even up until even ennobled weak, when Josh with told you're gonna, have to take a factual sexual examine and all of that just a week before that? glowing reviews. He got from not the case non Lisbon, but my problem, you know the people she was in employed by a private agency case. Workers often work for an agency that that do that word, but but how the state of Washington and CP ass you know,

Ray had interviews with him over the period of time and with it and with the kids and even even a psychologist at one point. such Auschwitz by the George could be Josh could be a loving parents, so there were, but there were carefully bright red flags, this as well was interesting because there was a this pastor from his church, TIM Atkins. So there was some plans to, I don't know warm counselling, but there were plans to meet with the Americans and he would have been or try to be an import person in this whole thing. This whole mess

cause a little bit more about his rule, so timid when said Minister small conservative church group. He happened to be a neighbour powers he knew about when the Josh and the boy to and I think he just wanted to reach out and help if he could, because here so man I mean I stance, all the time with him and his family, and I I think he was a bit naive but but met will, and try to offer in a friendship and fell

the ship that George, I think I think once or twice Josh and the boys went to tens turkish, but in all Josh what is really suspicious of churches and hatred for the Mormons in all quarters ran his mind, but you know TIM offered in his home, so sometimes Josh would have his custody visits there. The boys, play in play, retains kids and they have a meal. You know together and I think TAT gave him a Bible. He cannot prayed with Josh wanted to pray with John Usher made Josh pray with them. You know definitely meant well,

and on the Sunday that the house exploded trying to remember him. How exactly got the word course was on television here and radio, but tee when across the street, Tis Deeds House and one of the judges sister Alina was there alone, I think and set it, sat at the table with her and she gotten one about good bye texts from from Josh, and so I know he was in reaching out to the family, then, I think I think so many people underestimated Josh, so many I think, starting with the west, always city police, and then you know,

most of the people cross out through them here in washing stayed teachers underestimated when he was capable of You'd, do you write about a person named a liner? I'll leave. and Her strange support of her brother, and her father and things to cheat, went and did in in order to try to rehabilitate their raw reputations, I guess, withdrew a website. I was a little bit about her feelings about all of this and related sectors, what a winner once Josh's younger sister and yet in her dinner twenties one when all of this occurred

we sit in time with her. She wouldn't you go on the record. I checked since in the last few she's given, introduce, but she was the younger sister who, in there is mention of the divorce document. That said, she didn't feel safe her fathers how she did want to shower. While she was staring at her father's house- and she was maybe ten years old and but by the time she was in a groan, She had also been brainwashed by steam power and I don't think you do using the term lightly brainwashed those kids and it was kind of like them against the world for power. Against the world, so she was living near and you know Josh took every advantage each he could he dropped

didn't know how to be a father, take care of his kid. So when he and the boys in a move back after Susan disappeared, she would in a watch the children and I think, Josh Painter little bed tend to do that. Most people never working also they could with their families, and she was very defensive of Josh and even you know, it caused split between her and her older sister, who was in normal, healthy one living in Utah with her family Alina. You know shows sides So one of the things was this website. There were a couple of website Josh wanted to start one soon after Susan disappeared

And actually sat on a sofa at her friends House, a new title to try to build one and then he course moved back to our visit. The website very quickly very quickly became not about whose Susan is or was to her disappearance, it became about Josh and Steve Degree about what happened, disillusionment and there were said a man and you tell who disappeared. I believe that, just a few weeks before Susan, they go on down the ban, decided it shoot, run away. With your eye and if ever been trout, but you know, that's, not choose and there you know no chance and that they they would they would you know

try to promote these theories, but she'd run off and left her children and that every theory they could think of choosing to be smart, Jews and a reputation to say, she's, not she's, not the woman. You thought she's, not the mother, you thought you know. Oh and are we not would then later she started own website? I think and put up a bunch of old family videos that she thought. Oh, I know what they were. Should they showed that Susan used to be friendly with steel and right

oh, but to try to dismiss that argument that Susan was always suspicious of state that that's why she and George moved to Utah was to get away from Steve. Well, here's a family photo of Susan smiling with Steve in his presence and so different that prove to be thought. She was, and you know it got nasty. It really did yeah absolutely it's amazing tooth. So much of the vivid almost cinematic Seen in this book, the blue casket the one casket for the two boys, Charlie in Britain, the two thousand mourners at the funeral people from coming up from us. State become strangers mostly attending this to come

this resonating with so many people throughout them, Americans still, and so many people throughout the world the searches on foot, horseback, air, water, underwater, exhaustive searches, any search, searches of property. this case has captivated the imagination of people, women and it won't. Let go this people which made said it. There was obsessed with this case of some responses from this will make it is with every there's, not always a mystery, with every kind, Maybe there's always questions to be answered. Why did this happen and And often the crime is well. I guess Christie used to say the crime is the end of the story and really there's some that comes before you know. Who were these people? Why did this happen? I always liked to say it's important to know in what community did this kind

but that tells you a lot about the people, but in this case the crime is not the end of the story and theirs. There are several mystery still a part of this, and I think, like like we mention the John, but in any case I think those cases there forever haunted like Natalie Holloway, whose names have been found. Who killed. Somebody Ramsay we're Susan Powell. You know those kinds of those kinds of miss trees that go go unsolved. I think I think it very intriguing. Take, especially with this case

We left wing learn a little more every once in the wild. You know I do I don't believe in the word closure. I just don't think elaboration of one day. You know when they when they, when the jury, ward, you know four weeks ago, I don't think the Cox's said boy. That's over, whether in our defence done no, it's not like and even if Josh had been arrested, adore you know it, but I don't think you'll. Wake up and one day goes closure, but I think you were the words with a tragedy, and I think I think the lucky ones find some way to learn to live with it and then people that can't don't don't worry mad, but but

still you still quite a mystery, and I know everybody would like to know where Susan yeah incredible to the bedroom that the Cox's built for how's the two boys and they like they said they were like little animals. They had to be socialized, basically they get along and able to live in his home. and, as we mentioned before there was there, was the dark circles under their eyes. They had lost a lot of weight just before the night before they had mentioned before they didn't want to go with her daddy before, but especially were hesitant I mentioned Braden mentioned. I don't want to see daddy. I want to stay here, so there we're very adamant that day, so so much heartbreaking.

again? No one could know, no one could predict. No one could prevent what happened and then, despite Jackson Judy, their fears that this, especially once he had that psycho sexual evaluation, and knew that he wasn't gonna get custody of the kids that that he was to be feared, and certainly that horror came true incredibly- and I take it,

I think a lot of us. I think it's Schuman Nature to second guess yourself, an end to what something like the fact that the boys date not to go. That day I mean I would never be able to forget that. But you know the the Caucasus. Are they just resolved to focus on what what they can do? Not anything we can change, they can't change now and what you know I mean that happens. All the time would show her new idle and it's not gonna, be you dont know. You're they're, going to their death in all I know, is with Britain all postal workers, caseworker told me. She drove him to their death

you know, but the council seem to be able to focus on what what can they do now? What can they do and am? Am I really want to make sure? I add something about what this means for other state aid and even before the wrongful death reward award. Sometime after trolling Braden Stealthy, a saint legislator here. proposed a law that would say that if you're, even a person of interest in your spouses get her disappearance, but you can't have

deep, your children that didn't go anywhere. Am I I never found out why that didn't really go anywhere in the legislator. Legislature, maybe maybe too broad right, but I think that is something for aid to pay attention to, and especially after this, you know, multi million dollar wrongful gap, food that. what are you? How do you handle custody issues, an custodial visits when there's been a crime committed- and you know I believe that with Josh he should have his keys. Only custody desert should have been you know yet in an environment where there was security at least and some kind of good

Told environment, but you know it wasn't at the office building where a number of other parents had their visits, whether EU staff breathing maiden. You know they were talked into, allowing him to be at the pastures home. then at this final house, but maybe it states were stricter about Where do custody visits work and they take place. and how do we really protect children from our worst possible, the worst possible scenario? I I really think that something that could be something that could be done, that it could come out of all of this and for states to pay. You know paid no attention to

people who were having custody does occur under suspicion. They might be innocent they haven't met, cleared and, and how do you create a secure environment during those customers? if there's other still allowed his children I think I think, a combination of the of the two things, the case itself and the details, but also even more importantly, this lawsuit will be somewhat a deterrent, I think if the other states in and jurisdictions realise that they maybe I'll have the pony up. an incredible decision financial decision like this, a thirty something million dollars so hopefully, Hopefully that will learn from this, that the person and because we have seen people take out there.

Aspirations and their their desperation and kill their children. So this is not the first time yeah. I mean it is not unusual in familiar homicide when person killed her spouse and themselves and their children their whole family, and I'm just too. I think it's one of the most tragic swords murders and take your can kill your children, but in the Caucasus, knew that tell you obeyed. They are the only ones who didn't underestimate charge. They never did for a minute.

They always body, was capable of the worst and am really nobody believed them, maybe it'll him brimmer and a few people. But ah you know he was just you know he does his anger at them at the church. Susan. You know any good. Thank you know when I gave talks on the work and I still do, but when I give her talk at a library in Seattle, one- and you know I sort of adopted thee. You know the New York City transit system, saying if you see something say something you know because

in France, knew the Josh was about this with the domestic dispute. This is domestic violence is a case of domestic violence and they need He was treating her battling. Mate knew tat. She was afraid something would happen because she, You know she wrote a handwritten will that she put in our safety deposit box thing. If anything happens to me You don't look at Josh, it wasn't an accident. If anything happens to me. Wasn't enough did she get a video? You know dire he had ever all their belongings and she fell from the front. on the beginning of that you know, I don't know, what's gonna happen, but I'm documenting or alive for now and so

I I wish the other thing I wish. Instead, people had somebody convinced her to leave. One of her sisters really said: Suzanne, I'm gonna I'll drive down there right now and get you the boy, but for many reasons she didn't she didn't leave Josh because he will he peremptory told her. You know you'll, never see the boys and but you know, women used to come up to me and say you know if I told my daughter to get out to leave her husband. I should never taught me again: you know when these were parents who said it all, they felt their children wherein potential domestic violence situations. So saying you pc something say something isn't always sometimes

your children are gonna, wanna, hear that, but on the third, so many angles today story and the custody situation of domestic violence situation. Discontent goes on and on It is very interesting that this is many times, especially recently that there are people that are rather kill them, course just because somehow that would be home what other religious reputation or or they were look unfavourable and in their own with other members of the church. So I think it's just again incredible. Somebody with consider murder rather, force and in this particular case, rather than not have custody of their children for custody

children not just visitations, they did I did the slaughter their children such a dramatic way. I Thank you. I think often it's getting even too Am I right its revenge. I read these cases about an hour when couple split and be God kills himself in the kids, because its revenge to his wife, Absolutely I wanna. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about. If I can have you the update Susan, how will her mysterious disappearance and the murder of her children. Thank you so much. Rebecca Moors for, Does it might want to check this out? Don't you have a website and tell us how they might take a look at this book. Sure, though my website Rebecca

Moorish M, O r, I as dot com, Rebecca Timor's dot com website, I'd love to people here from people there's a way to contact me through that. I'm also one on Facebook. I Rebecca Moors and the book? If I can Have you is it so? It's been paperback four years which really hard cover the paper back. It's an audio books black and all the usual places which her kind of narrow right now, but with north cloth. But it's always there, of course, on Amazon been born, two noble

sites like that and, as you mentioned before, and the subject of a twenty twenty programme this Friday, unless you know what's were reporting, you know that one rest in United States after the election, who knows it could get bumped but it'll air, so that everybody can watch? Look at the twenty twenty website to work or my website for information about the shell brain thank you so much Rebecca Morris, it's been absolute pleasure. If I can't have you Thank you so much. You have a great evening taking good night.

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