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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy Bundy Dahmer the night stalker Btk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, on a cold January morning. The killer exit assistant district attorney mark has in BR the light. Eight shots fired a block from the car. Kaufman County courthouse

Two months later, a massacre the day before Easter. The couple slapped bunnies eggs, flower, centerpiece, gracing, the tape, death rang their doorbell and filled the air with the sound of an assault weapon charging round after round into their bodies. Eric will James and his wife Kim celebrated the murders, with grilled steaks. Their crimes covered front ages around the world. Many saying the killer place to talk it's square on the back of law enforcement. Will his plan to exact revenge on all those who had wronged him one at a time throughout the spring of two thousand and three teen Williams. Sowed terror through a small Texas town in a quest for vengeance, turned to deadly obsess his intention to keep killing until someone found a way to stop him. Book tour featuring this evening is, in plain sight, the Kaufman

County prosecutors murders with my special guest journalist and author Catherine Casey welcome back to program and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Kathy Casey Glad be here Dan. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you. This is, as I mentioned to you just before we got on one re, really exciting book edge of your seat, page Turner. I know those are cliches folks, but this is incredible and let's get right to this incredible story. Now we ART, a you start with the book where you really get it really deep, background on how this incredible disaster came to be from promising people careers and a small little community in Kaufman County, let's first a little bit about Kaufman County and before we

we're talking about the the early life of our main character. Eric Williams will coffee It is kind of a sleepy little town in it's the county seat. The courthouse is kind of an undistinguished building in the center of it and it's a row. Founded by town Square, with old storefronts and it's kind of a quiet little place, but it's on the outskirts of Dallas and it's a kind of place. Where people have families have been there for generations, there are cattle ranches surrounding Kaufman, proper is kind. Place where and beans in the old Mayberry Series might be seen walking on the street, carrying on her pies to a neighbor's house. It's not the kind of place where you I think people would be gunned down in the street.

So you talk about Eric Williams and not such as speak calculator or events early life, but would you talk about high school and some of the oddness is noted by T also tell us a little bit about some of the oddness at high school. You mention a briefcase and really his character is known for by people in the little community. What do they see and what are the first things that he does at high school towards his dreams?. Well, Eric really wanted to go into the military and he was really geared toward that mine said he was very bright. Eric Williams is a very smart man.

He was one of the brainy kids in high school and he was a little quirky. Instead of talking to the other kids on the school bus, he'd sit and he'd read a book. He carried a briefcase, which is unusual in a small town for a kid to do, I think it's actually unusual anyplace, but especially in a little Texas down, and he was an eagle scout he was really well thought of, but people did notice that he was a little odd. Like when he took his eagle scout exam, he was asked questions and the man who asked him the question to scout master notice that when Eric couldn't answer question his eyes: just got kind of dark and dad, and the guy on there's really something wrong here, but he didn't know what it was and then he was off to college and it was just it you like that. People have told me that in high school,

Eric and his group of friends. He had a really tight group of friends that he played games. It's like dungeons and dragons were they took on roles of fictional fantasy characters, he played STAR Trek and they they play different characters from STAR Trek, and he was really into that. That was his life, and I've heard it referred to is being a little bit like the popular show on tv, the Big Bang theory right right. You talked about two that he was very intelligent and He had got a chemistry scholarship at that Texas, Christian University, and he start by Senia joined ROTC. He focused on law enforcement. This is how he progress is in his interests, form military and that how that changes his direction in education. Well, you really did want to be a soldier, really wanted to be a career

Kerr Army, but the army instead downsizing point when he was graduating from TCU and he wasn't picked. A lot of his friends were, and Eric had always been this kid who was you know everybody talked about how small he was how great he was in this is like the failure. Dan, I mean this did and- and this was a really sad one for him, so he and cold in air. He joined another group of like a voluntary military organization, and then he went into law enforcement and he he was after after college he he started getting jobs working for small police department in and around the Fort worth area where he was living at that time. You talk about those early jobs,

you said it. Certainly, there was a disappointment in him not having a future in the military realize that so he you said that you applied to small police forces and fourth were Task Texas,. And you talk about a suburb called White Solomon. What was the situation that he left both of those police department's? Well, he was fired from both an this. Wasn't something people expected of Eric Williams. Eric was Gung HO and Eric was going to be a success and the first apartment he was let go after. He asked to have time off to take a college class and he was denied it, and I called in sick and just didn't show up for work to go to the class, but the second one more troubling one evening. Eric and another police officer. Instead of.

Circulating through town as they were supposed to be, this is a small Texas town checking on residents, didn't that and it's thought that they went to a topless bar and instead Eric had into the fourth level of the computer system at the police office, which was the most secure and changed. His report show that he had been in town circulating that night. The police we've got a call that night reporting it and showed up the next morning, looked at the proof and can fronted Eric Eric denied it, and he fired Eric and at the time the police chief thought that the whole. It was very odd because obviously, Eric was very well school. Cold in how to hack into the computer, and he thought he should have been able to cover his footprints if he'd wanted to an the police chief thought. It was almost as if Eric This thumbing his nose at them that he was

that he wanted them to know that he'd been able to hack into the computer system and do what he wanted with it. Now you talk about in November ninety three at twenty six years of age. Eric moves with this and Paul Willey. The car Oakland County, say forty minutes south of Dallas. And his friend Lily got a job at the sheriff's office and they and and Eriksen began studying for law school entrance exam. Tell us what he does in terms of he needs my So what happens and who does he meet? My Eric went, went into cost been looking for work and word got to the county judge that there was this promising young man had been an eagle scout. We've been in law enforcement, who is looking into law school? Who is looking for work in the area and the county judge called a man and his name is Ashworth. Glen Ashworth, an

interview, TIM and Eric was very impressive. He you know he looked on paper. He looked very good. And the judge needed a new county clerk or I'm sorry, a clerk for his office. The clerks act is kind of an assistant. They do the scheduling their kind of the gatekeepers for the judges. They do a lot of paperwork. He he sat down talk to Eric and he hired him. Glenn Ashworth at that point was the only state level judge in Kaufman County Texas, an he wielded a substantial amount of power in that little community and with that higher Eric became aligned with one of the most powerful man in this in Kaufman County. You also talk about all of the. As you mentioned, all the things he oversaw for the judges court coordinator will did a lot of power just in that rule, but also what Judge Ashworth

suggested. Eric do was register as in Unpaid Reserve officer with the DA office and once he did, that what did that enable Eric to do which was very important to Eric? He was able to keep his gun, was in to go through security and into the courthouse and even into into the courtroom. The judge wanted to have it. I mean it's it's one of those things a lot of stuff. You know the Bay Look, are there in their arms and we all have metal detectors now at the entrances at the court houses, and this was an uh, your level of security. So Eric like this, he started doing some things part time with the sheriff's department. He became kind of an active volunteer. You also talk about that first summer, though, that there's a little well, not a little, an incident that in

hind sight for both things to happen in a few sure, but that first summer he attended a court coordinating a quart coordinators conference and he met a woman named Janice Gray. What it happened that summer with Janice Gray he'd started dating Eric hadn't dated a lot of girls, but he had a few girlfriends over the years and I, like Janice, Janice liked him. Initially. She thought he was just this great guy in a little coat key kind of funny. You know it seems like a really sweet guy, a and they dated for awhile talked on. The phone got together even though they looked in separate counties, they looked quite a distance apart and then something in and Janice found somebody. She really really was attracted to really cared for and soft

teacher with and she broke it off. She thought that Eric took it well, but then they showed up at the court coordinators conference that that next year and Eric came up to her and show you're a gun in the lobby of the hotel that they were staying at and then said that he brought it to give to her son Janice didn't want it it kind of gave her an odd feeling. So let but later that night and he wanted to go out to dinner. But she refused later evening. She showed up with friends at a right bar and Eric was play there again standing right beside her and he pulled the gun out and she who tour she. He pulled her away from her friends and and then showed her the gun and

said. I don't have anything to lose. Her friend saw this happen and came over and got her and walked off with her and they reported it to the police. The police couldn't find Eric, but and they got into the conference next morning, dairy was sitting in conference. Room is, if nothing had happened. The police took him away and brought him to the courthouse. Janice was fine charges and they talked the police. Talk to the district attorney in Kaufman, who talked to judge Ashworth, judge, Ashworth, who assumed and probably not unsurprisingly, so just thought that his young court coordinator, had done something foolish had too much to drink and done something foolish took responsive, ability for Manhattan brought back to Kaufman, Ann and Janice agreed not to go forward with anything as long as

Eric left her alone. The amazing. In the fall of ninety five, you write that at Twenty five years of years of age, he began law school in Fort Worth, and his future seemed really bright and the Judge Josh Worth- and Eric became increasingly closer. Tell us a little bit about this. Developing relationship between the two. How far did it really go and how close it they become? You know they were Really good friends, they went out to the judge, included Erik and pretty much most of the things that he did. Eric was invited and at the end of the judges home for different events when at parties they had lunch together everyday along with a couple of other people in Kaufman people the courthouse and the count, the survey or they like Derek, did

I'd really like Derek thought he was funny Eric did a good job for him. Judge Ashworth was proud of the fact that Eric was going to law, school and bettering is future. It got the point where they became such good friends at one point that the judge actually included Eric as a beneficiary. In his will. He just saw Eric. Is this really great kid and he was trying to help him start? He was acting as his mentor any ob. They saw Ericas his protege and he was proud out of him and when Eric it did so well in law, school and then graduated from law school Eric actually gave the judge a plaque. Thanking him for what he had done for people and Kauffman saw. The two of them is just very close friends. You say at that time, and you include, though, that again he was accepted as quirky guy with this odd smile,

his behaviors just accepted the overall. They consider them nice guy, but you include Assad statement about if he. You you say if I ever, if you ever decided to go out what what did you say and and in the con next of how did he come up with this statement, which people thought was odd? Eric said odd things that uh you know he was one of those guys. You sat there and kind of had a little smile on his face, and people weren't sure what he was thinking. And at times he blurred out strange things and there's been a shooting some play in a country that was in the news and sitting lunch one day with a group of friends Eric said: if I ever go out I'm going to take a bunch of people. If I ever decide to go out, I'm going to take a bunch of people with me. And no one do quite what to think of But you know I mean it's such an odd thing to say they knew Eric. They liked Erik Erikson friend. They didn't think work would really do that. Why would

really do that? So they kind of look hit each other and then one remark to the other when they were leaving that Charles Zewe men, who is shot from the Ut Tower in the 1960s, was an eagle scout like Eric, and somebody wondered if one day Eric would shoot people from the for the cost county courthouse? Well, you talk about it. In ninety six he was on online message board and and met someone tell us who he meets and a little bit about Kim Johnson's early background Kim was working at that point at aid doctors office. She was kind of a medical receptionist. She done very well in high school, smart, pretty big blonde Texas, hair great laugh people like Kim

she gone to college. She went to Smu, decided to drop out and was working. For for a doctor. At that point, Kim on the surface, look kind of like just a happy, go lucky girl. The truth was that her My wife had been pretty traumatic, her father, she describes her father is having been in, he said over the years and the family home had not been as happy as people. You know it as Kim traded from the outside, so she was so somebody who had kind of this undercurrent tension in her life growing up and she was looking for somebody kind of like Eric Sheet, the guys she dated she decided word to you know laid back and, and they weren't the kind of guys she wanted to be with and Eric was fun and he was smart

and she was really attracted by his intelligence and Kim, is a smart woman and they kind both each other. Something and in no time at all, Eric was you know they matched. They met on line and then they met in person and they spent time together and I fell in love. You say shortly after this: this union really seem to change Eric around the office and his character almost seem to change. Including some things in behavior, where he lost weight, seemed to get healthier. Tell us a little bit about some of the positive changes it seemed to happen once he met quite well. Eric Friends were a little worried about this relationship in the beginning, you know people who meet on the internet, especially back then a lot of people do it nowadays, but back then this is all pretty new and people were concerned.

Kim was- and you know whether or not should be good for Eric, but Eric's friend saw that he he was happier he seemed- were content in his life. He was really proud of Kim. He carried a picture of in his wallet. Had a picture of her on his desk talk to people about how beautiful she was, and he just seemed to be uh- opening up to life. He did he looked healthier life life, looked really promising. He was finishing law school. That future was ahead. Everything looked really good for Eric Williams. Now you talk but that he lost weight and but that at the same time, the again this stories got a lot of people with not good health. So what does he do cover in terms of his own health, soon after meeting Kim? Well, they had they had some bad turn of events. Shortly after they married Eric found out, he

started losing weight. He started having to rush the restroom all the time. It turn out that he had type one diabetes, and this was something that really changed life. In many ways he had continued to be volunteer in the armed services and at that point had to tender his resignation 'cause. He knew he could never be called up for active duty. An things hadn't really gone very well for Eric. At that point I mean his life was opening on forum, his legal did, he was cut. You know he was getting to the point where he was graduating, but he had all of disappointments. The Miller everything had worked at the law enforcement thing, he'd been fired at the jobs that he had and now this you know now this health thing and then Kim Chemical. Bad news It turned out that she developed a lump on her leg and

and she was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, so both of these young people at the beginning of their lives. Together, you know all of a sudden. Their lives are turned around. You talk about Becky, Collab Rea and they owned a little law office and she was one of Becky. Collaborate was one of the people. That for lunch routinely with Judge Ashworth and Eric, and so when nineteen ninety eight he starts working with these people, tell us what happens at this law office. Well at the law office Eric signed on right after he got his law degree, as you said, in an intention was that he would work and that a percentage of

whatever he earned would go toward the law firm. But you know out was a known quantity and in county and and so he immediately started getting court appointments and he was a good friend of the judge, handing out the appointment, not that he was getting really spa treatment from Judge Ashworth, but he you know he got his fair share of the cases and they started. You know his under started to fill up. The money started to come in and he Erica wasn't paying Becky Calabria. What she had thought she'd expected would be paying. So there were some words that passed between the two of them and Eric describes it as a misunderstanding over the wages, but he left and he hung out his own shingle right across from the county, courthouse it

an open his own office. You talk about the really good money that flowed in from Eric scored appointments and in two thousand and one they bought a almost two thousand nine hundred square foot three bedroom house. About a mile and a half from the courthouse at sixteen. One hundred overlook with A3 car garage tell us how close judge Ashworth was with him. Literally judge Ashworth was right across the field at the back of the will add Erica new house he had a a place that was directly across that whole area. Kaufman is kind of an incubator, a lot a lot a lot a little towns are, but the area that the Williams Williamses bought in was actually developed by one of the judges Cozens and the house that Eric and Kimball

was once owned by a member of the judges family. It was All very close. You talk about Eric at this point. Indulges his interests at the courthouse. He shows off firearms. And a lightly, You say ten or so had guns and rifles, what was the word around in town about his weaponry? And and but you say why: why was that not a concern? Well Eric? It always went when Eric and Kim married. He had about ten guns, ten firearms and once money started coming in, he was buying more and he was showing them to people at the courthouse, letting them hold them. He was really proud of the guns. The rifles he MAR weapons. He was really into this and

word started floating around the courthouse that Eric had an arsenal small arsenal in the closet at his office. People didn't think a lot about it, because this is rural, Texas and most people in rural Texas have guns. So it was something that people noted. It was something that they knew about Eric, but it didn't foster any any major concern. You talk about the political climate in this town. Changing an in two thousand and two Judge Ashworth is a facing reelection in in a county. This and conservative tell us what happens as a result, and what is this select. What is this change in Eric's life? What the judge Touch Ashworth decides:

not to run again a lot of Texas judges do this. They stepped down at a certain point. After they've got all their years, then Ann and they start working on the side, is visiting judges and they take life a little bit easier, so Judge Ashworth makes that decision Eric at the time was concerned about it. But another judge The new judge that came in the republic and Judge Ash with it and the Democrats mention judge, asked the judge to high grade who was the Republican took over and all the sudden things started to change a little bit in the legal community in Kaufman Judge Tygard started paying the contract tournes, who are working for the state, more and Ann. You know, and Eric was one of those and Eric. I decided a little a little while earlier to specialize in cps cases, do family law and he soon

kind of carved out a niche for himself where he was the cps attorney. Who is a goodbye as guardian ad litem cases in the in county judge, Tygart gave him lot of assignments? It was before law, hi Eric had real stature in the community as the C p s and light on you talk about to that. To the the tiger at the new judge also increase the amount of money that he was paying these people. So he acts we didn't do worse. After Ashworth, a retired, he actually did better, and but there is a better yes- and you say that Ashworth was a visit, judge and visited court houses. Courthouses. And one day there was an incident with Erica and the person that he had helped and had be friended and just like a like, a son tell us

this little incident. Well Judge Ashworth walked into the lunch room at the courthouse and saw Eric sitting at a table and went over to talk to his friend Anne what he That was Eric, surrounded by paperwork from the county and they were blank forms for him to fill out the hours that he spent on his cps work, a guardian ad litem. For that. For that, on these cases he was appointed to and Judge Ashworth was troubled when he that they had already been signed by Judge Tiger it. So Eric was filling in his time putting down whatever he wanted without oversight? The judge said something to him did he shouldn't be doing that and that night Eric sent him an email and chastised him for criticizing him and said that it couldn't be friends anymore

Judge Ashworth responded and said: well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I always think of you as a friend Ann and then Eric responded and said something on the order of. Let's just forget about this. And the two men went out to Lunch and everything continued on as if nothing had happened, but at home at the House Kim notice that Eric talked differently about Judge Ashworth were before he'd always been proud of that. Visulite allegiance with the judge and talk about what a great man he was all of a sudden started saying he was prissy and comply, thing about him. And this kind of animosity was building up within Erika. Eric against Judge Ashworth were Also talk about a woman Sandra Howard that worked with him and by two thousand and five she had some

disturbing emails from him again. You talked about him shift in how we spoke about judge worth. What was his added in these email close to her. What was conveyed, what Eric was becoming a powerful person in this low old town at Kauffman AN in Kaufman County. He was wielding a substantial amount of influence over these cases and he started email Sandra represented the state Eric was representing children as a guardian at Litem, and then there were attorneys for the parents or for the relatives and the. Chicken. Defense attorneys in the area and Eric started. Send hang out these strange emails at night, in which he called the defense, attorneys horrible names and talk about doing terrible things to them

and in one case, actually talked threatened. The defense attorneys family Sandra didn't build If that Eric would do it, he didn't, she didn't believe any of it with serious she kind of God, as you notice, the people in the courthouse did when he talked about. If I go out, I'm going to take other people with me. He, she kind of took it as error, just spouting off letting off steam later, of course, They look at that very differently. Absolutely now you chronicle the time that the first time that Eric meets Michael Mcclellan so tell us who this MIKE Mcclellan is just a little bit of his background and even from the start, you say that they clash so tell us why and tell us a little bit of first about Michael Mcclelland,

MIKE Mcclellan grew up in that part of Texas. He grew up kind of in Central Texas, near Dallas, and he was a military guy. He's been a major use, retired major from the US army heats overtime and he'd, been over in Germany and then had been in the reserves, and you know Ed retired out, and he gone back to school when the become a lot of lawyer and he signed on with the same agency that Stander Harward worked with, and so he was representing the state of Texas in the cps cases. Well, MIKE was the real thing he was a soldier, he'd been a major and Eric. It always wanted to be what MIKE was, and you will. I thought. Maybe that would have been a bond between the two men, but from the beginning there was just bad blood there. They just they brushed each other the wrong way. You know Dan,

it's like walking in meeting somebody for the first time and for some reason you can't stand that person. Well, that's what the two of them were like MIKE. So Eric is a wannabe soldier, as somebody who is pretending to be what he wasn't he was, you know would be soldier who never got in the army. He was he's a wannabe cop who couldn't work. You know who's been fired by law enforcement and with a volunteer soldier with the sheriff's department, and he couldn't abide Eric Williams and around Eric might kept talking about his Milla very experience as if this kind of showing off a little bit Before long Sanders said it was when it was like tying two cats. Together with and throwing him over a clothesline they were, they were each other, hissing and just posturing whenever they got together Sandra didn't like working cases with the two of them

because it was just so uncomfortable being around both of them. How does MIKE Mccoy well tell us a little bit brief. About how he gets to the point where these people are working and competing? And at odds with each other again well MIKE, had always wanted to go into criminal law, but had no history in it. He actually had a masters in psychology. Anne had work is a counselor and it had done a lot of mental health law before he work for Cps, but he decided to for the D slot in Kaufman County, and he he and his wife Cynthia who is a nurse mental health nurse at the state hospital there very funny,

kind of women who used to break into song at the drop of a hat. She they They went out campaigning and they worked really hard and MIKE's family helped. He was a real underdog, but he got into the runoff and it look like maybe he'd have a shot at the DA's office are, I would say: well he doesn't have the experience and he didn't. He was running against a guy who was a seasoned Dallas County prosecutor. MIKE maintained that he didn't need experience that the DA thought they was a figurehead they. He ran an office that he was a manager and that he you know he could do that, that he had military experience and it would work but Eric he didn't like MIKE Air, like did like the guy MIKE, was running against, ran an ad in in the local newspaper, questioning MIKE's character,

and making kind of a veiled comment about ask him why he left the state of Texas you know, know where he was working with Sandra Harwood. Well, my kid left under rather a cloud because MIKE was doing something he wasn't supposed to do at the time he was taking court appointment cases and other counties. We it was frowned upon by the state right MIKE lost the election. I think it was by about sixty five votes which spent a lot and that letter that ran in the paper that could action the election. So at that point, your third animosity between my parkland and Rick Williams. There was just flat out bad blood, absolutely. To talk about how he doesn't give up, and so what happens in the

suing time for Eric and what happens in the ensuing time for MIKE Mcclellan, well the next election comes around and four years later and they're both running for office. This time, my his back running for the DA's slot again The incumbent, the guy who defeated in the former Kenda The first time around. An Eric has decided to run for a slide, is justice of the peace there is a guy named Johnny Perry and it's just as the pre. He was the lone Democrat in all fish in Kaufman County and says we said earlier. The county attorney Republican and Eric to I to go ahead and through we have had, and he thought that the pair it's been in that office for like twenty years, but Eric thought that he was beatable. So they were both on the ballot that year and

it was hard fought, but they both won. So as that year started. I think it's two thousand and eleven. MIKE Mcclellan, is done, comes in as the new or maybe two thousand and eleven is that right Dan? I haven't got that timetable right in front of me. Yes, I yeah. Ok, Eric comes in as a new justice of the peace in Kaufman County. An MIKE Mcclellan is the new district attorney. Now, with Eric's role as justice of the peace. It's very similar to a judgeship, or at least he believes it's a path ship to judgeship, like Judge Ashworth, tell us about those powers and what is Eric's behavior before we get to what happens shortly after

Well, you know Eric had always been one of those guys who didn't like death permission to do things. Hey And he got into the justice of the peace office and started to change things right away. His duties were to two preside over a courtroom, it's kind of like a junior judge. You know they have they handle small cases. Misdemeanors they do traffic court, they You know they have all kinds of different cases. They don't do the big cases, but he was handling the small cases in rural Texas, where there aren't corners and count they go out on death investigations Ann rule, whether or not there be an autopsy. They perform weddings and often make quite a bit of additional money. You know performing weddings that money is money they make on the side. And Eric

Eric could have that rebellious. It stands and he started doing things on his own for the office, much of which were good. He put up a mailbox southside to get separate mail for the justice of the Peace office 'cause. He thought it worked better. He installed a safe in the closet, bought it with his own money. Put it in he. Already done some other things with the county computers, where he tried to update them on his own without getting permission. He'd had his hand slapped by the IT department, but he did it once he got into Jp Soft, He started talking a lot about pudding in a video, magistrati and system. Eric Williams love technology. He loves computers, he was always on the cutting edge. He wanted Kaufman Kind, need to be there too. He didn't want to have to go down to the jail to read people their rights. He wanted to be able to do it over a Skype type of hook. Up which a lot of the other counties in Texas were already doing. Kaufman county,

it's a rural, slow, moving county they've been talking about this for long time hasn't gotten anything done Eric at a certain point did to get frustrated. He wanted to changes. He brought the couple of the judges. The other justices at the pieces in to his office showed him. I could work, they all liked it, but it to go to committee. It had to go through the It Department and Eric was in very patient. You talk about these video monitors and some of the things that he wanted for this and him going not getting requests filed. Tell us what he does. And how did they find out what he has done. Well, Eric didn't want to wait for that hook up to go through and he started kind of

nosing around in the IT department with the office was in the same building that his justice of the peace court was in so do off hours, especially on Sundays. He started popping over and looking through the IT department. One, why Friday. There was a woman named Lori Primal who is working there and she had a pile of monitors next, her desk there about six of them in get her computer up on I'm working on it? She left for the weekend got back on Monday morning and three of those monitors were gone. They were brand new Dell monitors they each cost one hundred and eighty dollars, they were just gone so she called around tried to find out if somebody had taken them to deliver them to the sheriff's department. That's where they were going. That's what they were for for the nine one, one system, no one.

What did happen to them? She pulled at the video tape for the surveillance and was shocked to see Eric Williams, walking out of the IT department and through the courthouse the Sunday before the day before carrying the boxes Dell, computers, he had taken them. He wanted them for video, magistrati and system, the next hey she walks in, and she sees one of them on Eric's desk by then The county sheriff, is becoming involved in you talk about this chief deputy Rodney Evans questioning air. What else did they see on that videotape that struck them as. Very unusual and disturbing well, the the videotape was troubling Eric was holding

a little radio like a shortwave radio, as if he was monitoring calls to the sheriff's department. You know it was one thing. It had taken the computers, but then he didn't say to Lori. On Monday, hey I took three compe theaters, I'm trying him out for the video magistrati and system, and they found one of the computer boxes out in the dumpster behind the courthouse. It was just odd the way. The way Eric is done. All of this so Evans they start investigating and they put up a they get for evidence that Eric is going into the IT department the following Sunday. They see him leaving something else and they show up at the he's office with a warrant for Eric's rafts for the San to three monitors, uh take him down to the courthouse and Evan starts interrogating him.

And Eric says yeah I took monitors bye. One of them is in my office and the other ones in my car. He claimed that he had returned the third one and he said Therefore, the video magistrati and System, Ann and Evan says: well, you don't have permission to take those and we don't have the third monitor back so Eric is booked and charged with the theft of property. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a second to talk about our sponsor Catherine, Blue, apron. Louis is the leading meal kit delivery service in the US, and while my people know what they do, many don't know about the types of meals you eat when you cook, with blue apron, like strip steaks with potatoes and spice the maple collard greens, a steakhouse inspired favorite with a delicious twist chili

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is going to happen as a result and what does happen as this progresses? Well, Eric in the beginning tried to work something out with the DA's office. You know, and they did make an offer to him- they offered to allow him to plead a misdemeanor but the misdemeanor. Who did a theft charge and Eric belief that he lose his law license. So he does. I did to go ahead and fight it. He decided I wanted to go to court his attorneys. Wanted to have the case moved out of cost in Colonie, but Eric said hey. You know these people just elected me, justice of the peace I'm well. I have a lot of friends here, I'll be okay. Let's do it here. And MIKE Mcclellan wasn't about to walk back, I mean here he had

Eric Williams. Who'd been this thorn in his side, since he got the Kaufman County. Didn't like the guy at all, and you know he decided to pursue. So he brought in a guy named Mark Cassie, who is one of his chief prosecutors in the office, had once been a really good prosecutor in Dallas County and they pursued the case. They took it to court a lot of the people in Kaufman Con especially in the LA community, were really unhappy with this. They didn't like that. The sheriffs and showed up in Eric's office handcuffed been walked him out. They didn't like that everything error. Hello, dear, you know his his justice. The cases judgeship, his law license. Everything was hanging in the balance over six hundred dollars worth computers. If computer monitors, especially when one of the monitors was found in his desk and the other one was out in his car in the

the parking lot. He was planning to take it to the to the jail, so they were upset over it this really tore the county apart, especially the legal community, but MIKE Mcclellan was an indeterminate. Eric Williams was going to pay for what he did we did not mention- and this is a very important part of this story- is the importance of the Texas State Guard for Eric and for this case, So let's go just a little bit backwards and talk about his importance to Eric of the Texas State Guard Eric once he left long for a lengthy left. Military after was diagnosed with diabetes and really, kind of at a loss, so he joined. What's called the Texas State Guard, it's kind of a state militia, and and they do all kinds of things during they handled like security at parades at big events.

They go in when there's been a hurricane here on the Gulf Coast where I live and they help people out they bring in water and food, and things like that and Eric loved it, and he was moving up the ranks and he'd actually gotten a Promot Shin shortly before this happened, I think it's. He was a captain at that point when he was arrested and he he was living and breathing the guard he used to, he had to say Qua Eric had one of those little. You know little vehicles. Personal vehicles people ride on and okay, he had when he used to go through the neighborhood in in is safeguard from within AR weapons strapped to his back and circulate around it at night, patrolling the neighborhood I mean he had really gotten into this. So and he'd worked his way up, he was

really he worked really hard at it. Well, when he got arrest did on the charges the theft charges he forced to step down from that as well. He was suspended from the guard, so Eric was really looking at losing pretty much everything that was important to him. If he lost is a case. You also mentioned to just to add to this MIKE Mcclellan Personal emailed, the video of the guards to this awesome headquarters to make sure that he was removed from state guard. Wasn't it you know, I think, there's no question that this was personal for MIKE Mcclelland, and certainly that was one of the things that he didn't have to do, that he did he as he said, he mailed he personal email back to the to the state guard. You talk about

his behavior afterwards in terms of his sub natural arsenal. What happened in terms of that substantial arsenal did increase well how long it had been increasing Kim said. The word She didn't know how many guns Eric had that there were guns all over the house. There were the guns at the office and what, after Eric lost the case after he was convicted on the theft charge. Much to his surprise, he was forced to he was told he was going to have to get rid of the guns. Felons in Texas, and I think most states aren't allowed to have what have firearms so he is told that that case went the theft case was on an appeal, but he was told he was going to have to get rid of the guns. He told the sheriff that he was doing

in that, but in truth he had no intention of getting rid of the guns. You talk about two that there was so much controversy with this that Aaron Davis, his attorney withdrew from the case and then Eric asked a friend from the guard named John Sickle, and they had to get another person as a second David Sergi colonel in the guard tell us how things proves proceed with this court case? Well, they they went to court. With and Mark Markasi. The really good was a really good prosecutor. He was trained in Dallas during the during the You know I mean he handled mob cases. He handled murderers and drug cases he didn't want to handle this case. He said from the beginning that he thought it was too personal. He wanted them to bring in a special prosecutor. Did

but MIKE, didn't want to MIKE Second chair. Does he sat right now? to mark during the theft case Ann, They brought in their evidence, and you know tried to proof that Erica. On this taken this appeal to the jury as citizens of Kaufman County he's stealing from you Batman to thief at one point mark. Has he Eric Williams and said you know, he's a thief. Look at him! That's what he is it it got. Pretty nasty and courtroom, Dan and Eric was convicted on the case Ann and case did go into an appeal and, in the meantime, Eric lost everything. They've been a gamble. He put on probation two years probation, but he was, he lost his wallet.

Taken away I he lost the JP position, which meant that he had was also looking at losing his insurance is health insurance and he had a sick wife with rheumatoid arthritis, and he was a type one diabetic. This was a problem. He was no longer a member of the national or the state Guard, something he was really proud of. Eric Williams lost his life over basically, six one hundred dollars for the computer monitors, two of which, where on county property now MIKE and Mark, has E. What kind of relationship do they have an? Even after this conviction. You say that they continued. So what was that continuance of what? What did they do and what did they say? Well, you know they

there was this animosity in the LA community in Kaufman County over this case, a lot people were upset about the way this case has been handled, so they we're spending a lot of time trying to appeal to the attorneys in the area showing them things like that surveillance tape. Saying look, look the guys! It's thief, look what he did and. You know MIKE didn't have the background that he probably needed to be. The district attorney in Kaufman County Mark did mark, wasn't in a position to tell MIKE what to do my quiz, his boss, so Mark backed him up. What MIKE told him to do- and you know the result- was that Eric lost his life. Basically everything all you know he had no way to support himself. We had a sick. Why? If he had no insurance, he he lost everything MIKE and Mark were really good friends. They went out to

lunch. Often together, you know this is really it's kind of like, like I said earlier, a small town court houses are kind of incubators, and this festering and add courthouse in Kaufman County now after this conviction. What was the response in terms of how close he lived to the courthouse and that former at Jesse had to the courthouse and this arsenal of weapons that everybody knew about Well, everybody knew about these weapons and they were worried about the weapons, but and one day Eric showed up at the courthouse. Remember his office is right across the street from the downtown courthouse and they stop him coming in and they search him so where? before he had his own passkey, which is unusual for lawyers to get into the courthouse now he was so untrue. Were these so worried about that? He is being treated

differently when he walked in the door. The justice of the peace office that he worked in was right across the field from his office in a different direction than Judge Ashworth House. It kind they kind of made a triangle a when in the winter, when the leaves were off the trees, you could actually see the courthouse building from Eric's backyard. So it was just really close quarters another. It happened, and I think you were talking about this earlier Dan. I didn't pick up on it was that throughout this time MIKE and mark we're making disparaging remarks about Eric to Eric's friends at the courthouse, they were voice, your opinion of who Eric Williams was they found out at the Janice Gray and in Huntsville

the one where he had shown the woman that gun and said. I have nothing to lose, so they thought. Perhaps it's rightly that Eric was kind of as we stay in Texas, locked and loaded that it was kind of on the edge, and they started to worry about Eric they did throughout this. They were worried about Eric MIKE thought, MIKE with his experience as a psychologist, DOT Derek was dangerous that that he could go over the edge and over the top and mark was very really worried about Eric Williams. He told a lot of friends that of all the cases he handled and he'd had major criminals. He prosecuted. This was the guy that scared him. You also talk about mark talking about running for Eric judgeship or justice of the peace which couldn't have made him any

more than just more angry than he was you know. Eric didn't know that mark was looking at doing that. That was something that mark talked about with some of the people in his office, but it certainly raises the question of you know: did did mark like MIKE. Have a personal reason to want to go after Eric Williams? Is map at Eric shouldn't have been punished for what he did? You know it's the extent to which he was punished. A lot of people in Kaufman knew that he wanted to build their computer system and Ann that Eric had a history of trying to do things on his own without going through channels. So when you look, it is intentions on this. It kind of raises the question of how personal was all of this and mark very wisely. He was a good prosecutor. Annuity was doing. He very wisely thought he should not be the one to prosecute that case and that MIKE shouldn't and it's

somebody from the outside should be brought in to take a look at it, but MIKE wouldn't have anything to do with that. You talk about all the punishments that happen immediately in all the LOS for him, including insurance, and all the privilege in his life is turned upside down. Yet at the same time, MIKE Mcclellan still wanted and had asked for and still demanded jail time for these minor crimes and that he'd run on a cleanup, Kostman County. You know no favoritism in the courthouse platform an he is determined that Eric Williams is going to pay to the full extent of the law for what he had done, a and yeah he he wanted jail time for Eric to judge, didn't agree, Eric put it in Judge Stitches hand, and he did not agree and

he came back and give Eric probation Mike was unhappy with that and he most people. He was unhappy with that. He saw Eric Williams is a thief and he was they have in prison. Now you say meanwhile, Kim married Eric is, is really livid about him losing his job and she has a same blame for the people. The obvious is blamed for who had him this job Ann, you say, they're at home, playing video games called mafia wars, but you talk about in November there's another b. Things to worry about for Eric, and what is that in terms of something coming from MIKE Mcclelland again? Well, they found out while they were working on all of this, that Eric Eric was the

head of the law library, which was a room that the attorneys were supposed to be able to use at the main courthouse and that Eric had been ordering supplies for the library the library had a big budget. It had like two hundred one thousand dollars in the bank out of ten dollars fee on civil cases that went into the coffers and did he can have that Eric had been having supplies that he ordered from the local office supply place delivered to his office, not to the Lila LAW Library? Will that actually made sense, because nobody was at the law library to sign for them, but some of the things raised questions things like headphones, that they They went up and looked at the law. Library didn't find all of the things that Eric, as matter fact around very few of the things that I had order through the office supply store for the law library and they filed more charges against Eric for theft. This time, I think it was for up

two one thousand seven hundred dollars worth of appropriation of office supplies from the county and despite the fact that they had already taken away everything they could from Eric the only it remained with jail time. They filed those charges and those were hanging over Eric's head. You also talk about a very disturbing thing that wouldn't help Eric what, however, in terms of his mental attitude, is that His lawyer was speaking with the prosecution and meanwhile she had her tape, recorder on and record I did some of the things that they said about her client and she transcribed those and sent copies to lawyers and to Eric again just what is some of the things that they said. Or intimated in that conversation. Well, there was

Mark Cassie, and he was calling Eric names calling him with the saying he was dishonorable just and that we're going to go after him, and you know that the lawyer representing him. He felt sorry for him because he had such an unsub that a client things like that, but they you know they were saying things all over their courthouse and it was getting back to Eric through Eric's friends. You know the the uh my city, was just building. It was just building, so they talk about the court case itself. An and and to add even more complication to this MIKE is not supposed to be MIKE Mccall it's not supposed to be involved in this prosecution. Tell us how he does become involved with this. Well, when he's

another woman, a woman named Michelle GOSH, I'm Sorry, I'm losing her last name right now. I think it's sudden, but I'm not positive was. Is that writing? It was second there's something people in the this. I think I interviewed well over a hundred people Michelle was supposed to be second chair with Mark, but Michelle had with diagnosed with breast cancer and step down and rather than assigning somebody else in the office to work with Mark MIKE decided he wanted to do it. This was one of the first criminal cases MIKE the Qual ever here, he said CA in this county and he had you know a handful of criminal cases. He'd worked over the years. It was his first in Kaufman County. Now, with this. They also that used talk about mean well, what is Eric and can

I'm doing at home with all of this faced. What is there be Savior and what are they doing and what is Eric, researching and doing? And we, didn't, find out planning. Well, he starts even before the end of the theft trial. Eric is walking around the house talking about MIKE and mark. He had names for them, gosh, I'm drawing a blank now and so sorry disparaging names for the two of them. He stopped calling them MIKE and Mark and started you using other terms for them and he starts there they're playing their computers. All the time is, you said they played mafia wars incessantly, and he also starts looking up

he has he still log able to log into the Lexisnexis account the courthouse and he starts looking up personal information like addresses. And information on car registration and things like that from I can mark- and you know, he's he's searching for information and then he starts talking to Kim about his enemy list. The people he plans to get revenge against. And the list has names on it that are at this point, not surprising judge, Glenn Athwal Ashworth is on the list, early Wiley, who is one of the judges at the courthouse and have been responsible for Eric, losing his cps work, was on the list and, of course, high on the list for MIKE and Mark, and this

sheriff was on the list at that time. He was angry with the sheriff he saw. The sheriff is a friend and thought the sheriff should have protected him. Now. What is The health of Kim at this time well Kim, is getting sicker and thicker and she's, getting increasingly dependent on painkillers and pain medications. She starts out she's taking just like vicodin and opiates and before long. You know she she's needing per kid in she's, taking more and more of these things in order to to function, she spending any preysing Liam large amount of her time in bed. Her parents live nearby, they've, moved a block away and when he's not in bed sheets over their parents house watching over them, their elderly and her father is dying of cancer, but most have kims time is spent in

bad in kind of a haze, a drug induced haze from her prescription medication. You talk about this list that SAM Keats talk about, and where does that list goal? What happens from that list and finally, who's on the list? Well, one day, SAM key to the front MIKE Mcconnell is in his office and a secretary comes in with a faxed list and it has five names on it for five names they had five name things on it, and she said this came over. It's a list of Eric William supposed to put it supposed to put and on it were the names of judge, Ashworth Early Wiley, my take mark and a woman named Denise, who runs a small newspaper in

in that area in the Forney area, which is nearby, and it well. What am I supposed to do with this is a some kind of a hit list, and a I said SAM and they look at the names and he folds up the list and he puts it in his desk and then you know and but then afterward he she says, do you. I should tell these people and SAM says yeah. I think you should Ann afterward, he does get in touch with Denise the newspaper woman is on the list and yes? I hey, you know Eric Williams got this list and your names on it and if things go bad run. You talk about RON Herrington after that, whenever he ran into mark at the courthouse. He talked about Eric Mark

Oct about Eric, and he said what did he say about Eric to run Herrington? He said my and he said that Eric was going to kill them. They were different. Eric was, can try to kill them march. Thirty carrying a gun marks. Airplanes and at the small airport worry fluids playing out of when they people I am working on his plane. He'd have a he never did this before he a holster on with a with a handgun at his side, he wore one in the courthouse at all times, registered with the Kay's office as a. You know law enforcement officers, so he could bring it into the courtroom with them. He was afraid Mark was afraid. He he moved his car. He used to park his car a block from the court. House behind the dry cleaner. He done that since he started in Kaufman all of a sudden, he was Working in the county lot, you know,

coming at different times fluctuating schedule Mark He was really afraid. Eric Williams. You talk about Eric and Kim and Eric talking to Kim in this drug it out state that she was sick and mostly in bed, but she shared his anger and sing to him. It's hard to say how seriously she took him, but he was talking about very serious things like assassinating these. Some of these people. Now when he talked about some of these things. What did he also include in terms of preparation to do these things? What else did they do together? Well, He started talking more and more about killing Judge Ash Ashworth. He was really angry. With Judge Ashworth, he thought that Judge Ashworth had told MIKE and mark

about the Janice Gray Incident Ashworth hadn't, but he thought that he had so. He started talking about different ways to kill the judge. He he talk about buying a crossbow going over, did the judges house and then shooting him with a crossbow, bringing him back to the house to Eric and Kim's house pouring napalm guarding him while he was alive pouring napalm into his stomach to kill him and bearing him in the backyard and Eric started digging the Rose Bush is in the backyard in Eric Kim walked out. So what's that for- and he said well- I wanna see if about if the judges body will fit in here. Eric

made napalm do this an one day. Eric came home after shopping with Eric with Kim's father, ah store, and he had bought the crossbow, but then his he changed. His find a nice thought ego after mark. First. And he drove him Kim Kim, didn't wanna go with him Kim saying you know, I'm not going to do this now. She was angry at Mark and MIKE they had destroyed their lives as far as Kim was concerned, but she kept saying I'm not going to do this and Eric's response was you have to you're my wife and Kim was afraid of Eric. She had reason to be afraid of him. So at one point she drives him out to Mark's house out in the country and they sit down at the the driveway and watch the cars coming and going. An Eric, hatches

plot worries going to shoot Mark is, he leaves for the office in the morning through the glass that's window of his truck Annie thanks then that marks Carl kind of careen off the road and hit a tree and people think he's been hit by a stray bullet. This plan obviously changes, but will talk about part of this plan. To is that he had some friends in this state Guard Texas State Guard. In fact they keep call I'm captain. So there's a lot of respect from these fellow state guard members and he calls a fellow guard member now, Roger Williams, no relation to him, but a man name. Roger Williams. What does he ask him to do and what does Roger agreed to do Eric calls Roger Williams and says that His brothers moving to the area needs to put his stuff in storage, and

but the families asked Eric to get a storage building form to put in. And are storage like a garage kind of thing, at a storage center, Ann Roger Williams, agrees to go down and help Eric edit. The reason Eric says he can't do it on his own? Is that because of the FED conviction that it could be searched at anytime and Eric doesn't want Kim only to go through that embarrassment, so Eric I'm sorry, so Roger Williams agrees to do this with Eric goes to this storage area in Seagoville and they rent a unit and after they rent this unit, it's kind of the size of a one car garage uh. You know Raj

offers to help Eric move. Kims brothers, things in and Eric said all don't worry about it, I'll move it in I'll, take care of it. No problem, and- and you know, Roger Williams- Drive Zopf, assuming that that's what's going in that storage area, but that's not what Eric intended for. You're saying that Eric also locks logs onto the Lexus Nexus website account and searches for information about mark drivers license and where MIKE Mcclellan lived. You talk about the I bought a mercury sable, so they had to get away car that wasn't there. Sport trac black truck

that, also that he prepared by buying all kinds of assault and military. A quick math before in preparation for this. Let's get to the day that that mark have c is assassinated. Well, it's a cold morning and AL it outside of Dallas in this whole town and and Eric wake came up that morning. She knows that it's the morning that they're going to do this by then she's agreed because he threatened to kill her parents. If she doesn't help and they drive into downtown Kaufman, where they've left this getaway car disable and she drives him. They get in the leave the spawn

track, Eric's car there and they drive into town and they wait for park in the parking lot. Eh Eric has had him under surveillance. Obviously because he knows that's where marks Parking Anna's market out of the car out of his, fuck that morning Eric it's uh, the car dressed in black wearing a hood with mesh in front of it over his face and walks around and stuff. You know walks up to mark there. The words between the two of them Eric pushes Ann and then the shooting starts mark. Is it going on, but he's got a code on over in the close button. Then he can't get to it and more. The smaller man in Eric's pushing and shooting- and he takes it marks thanks Eric, takes a gun and shoots spy kids at the bay. This is mark snacks straight down into his body, and Mark falls.

And by then Eric is used up the the five shots. The bullets in one hand, gun pulls out another one shoot some two more shoots: him again shoot some bullets into the air. They get into the car and Kim drives Erica way. Incredibly, there was a witness somebody that knew Eric because of the the situation she thought that was a much taller, much heavier man. Eric is, of course, a natural specs tell us how on earth he gets away with this. Why you know in in investigations like this. Sometimes chance plays an incredible role, and in this case it certainly did when MIKE Mcclelland aright hears about this. The first thing he,

this is Eric Williams, young he's standing over marks body at the hospital and he tells the corner the the justice of the peace who's there looking at the body or during the autopsy that Derrick Williams did this. He to everyone that Derrick Williams had done this, but the problem was that at the same time, he saying this there were things going on at Kauffman Connie involving the Aryan Brotherhood, and there had been threat made by the Aryan Brotherhood that had been reported by different lawn for open agencies, including the FBI and the Texas Department of Public safety warning people that the air being brotherhood could be coming after people in law enforcement. So

this whole situation unfolds where you you have MIKE Mcclellan, telling anyone who will talk to him and a lot of other people in Kaufman County, pointing the figure finger at Eric Williams, but the local police chief in Kaufman, TX who's, the lead, Investigator, on the case, he's in charge of the case is sending FBI. The Texas Rangers and a this resource resources off. On a wild goose chase. Looking for Evida, it's against the Aryan Brotherhood or the mexican Mafia, the irony in this case is just overwhelming? Then I mean you have you know there were so many people talking about Eric Williams and the people in LA in four

and because of the circumstances, and they do have to investigate all leads. It could have been the Aryan Brotherhood but they're off, investigating spending, but most their resources in investigating dead ends at the time. You say meanwhile, Eric Williams Kim is still sick. Ann wants to be oblivious what's going on, but still a participant in and hearing about these plans and the these plans for the next person on his list, not content to have gotten away been so intelligent to a fooled. All these law enforcement expert at the same time, MIKE Mcclelland, puts an ADT security service in his home, and this is a man that has one hundred weapons in his home and this mill, Terry Experience and still, but is it Eric, is the person

responsible, despite that, the police FBI profilers in this increasingly big group of people are still leave chasing leads as Aryan Brotherhood and also the mexican cartel tell how long, is going on and what happens to MIKE Mcclelland and his wife Cynthia. Well, this goes down for two months. Where they're trying to figure out to happen. In this case the Fbi arrives the Texas Rangers are there? There are a lot of people working this case, but the most and, as I said, Heraf investigating the Aryan Brotherhood, Eric is: has his lawyers from the case they're a barrier against interviewing him. He is refusing to be interviewed this week.

There's an investigation investigation wears on and wears on and wears on, Don and in the house on Overlook Eric is saying to Kim we're going to do the next one. We've got the next one coming up. He starts talking about MIKE and Cynthia and she says. Well, you know what, if MIKE alright. So it goes. They have different scenario. Again like drive by shootings and things that they talk about and then Eric says that he's going to kill MIKE at the house the day before Easter, and what he's saying is that the investigation is kind of winding down. It's not that they've, given up a few people are working at the command which is a block from Eric's house has been vacated and they move to smaller force into the sheriff's department E.

For Sunday, a lot of the detectives and a lot of the people will be with their families. They won't be working over the Easter holidays, so he sees this as his opportunity. So the next one on his list is MIKE Mcclelland So the Saturday before Easter, Holy Saturday Again they get up early TIM and Eric get up early. They go to the storage area. This time he's driving a crown Victoria he's dressed in full swat gear. And they drive out to Mcclelland House Kim who's ill is scrunched up against the door. Not wanting to be there Eric goes up to the front door disappears inside he's got an AR weapon with them. She hears the gunshots he's in there a short period of time to rat a tat tat. Any lesson Two minutes later he walks back out puts his.

They are weapon in the backseat of the car and they drive off. And as he leaves, he said, she opened the door for me, which is Cynthia Ann, then went to get MIKE and I just started shooting. Now they had bought a crown Victoria Getaway car at First Carb. They got rid of an again chance, plays part and them being able to get away. We only have a couple minutes left in this interview and we can't get into. Some of the more exciting things that go on afterwards and you got To interview both of these Eric and Kim late, maybe just in closing you could it's a little bit about those interviews. You know they were really pretty remarkable lyrics on death row now

and I spent quite a bit of time with my think I interviewed him five times and he is that he didn't do it. He says Kim is lying Kim turn states evidence Eric at the death penalty Kim got forty years Kim is repentance. Kim understands that they killed three people and what they did to these families. Eric still maintains his innocence, and I think he feels entitled to have done what he did based on. You know what he believes Eric you know. What he believes MIKE and Mark did to him. It was incredible trial as well that we didn't have time to go through it whatsoever. There is so much incredible. Details of the carrot, There is so visual. This book it's so exciting the edge of your seat through this entire thing, even though you know just from the description of the book itself, you know what the outcome is, but this is a very

writing book. I want to thank you very much Katherine for coming on and talking about in plain sight, the Kaufman County prosecutors murders for those that might want to read about other work. You've done, do you have. Website or facebook page for this. How can people look at this? I want to mention this. I do I have both on Facebook, it's my name. Catherine Casey K, a t, h, R Y N C, a s e y and my website is Catherine, Kc, dot com and thank you so much Dan. It's always such a pleasure to talk with you. It is always a pleasure and do outdone yourself with this book- incredible story, an incredible writing. Thank you very, For coming on and talking about in plain sight, hope to talk to you again.

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