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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dtk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, where is Brandon The four year old had not been since seen since July. Three for one thousand nine hundred and ninety two, when he attended birthday party with his twenty year old mother, Michelle Jones Jones, was employed Conf

and talented smart, assertive and involved in many community activities in Indianapolis, in, in contrast, when he was last seen, Brandon Sims, an only child, was a serious quiet in boy, rarely maintained eye contact with his mother. After that, Heidi was never seen again. His body has never been found. For years Jones lied to her friends about Brandon, telling some that he was living with his father and others. He was staying with his grandmother in another state when Brandon's father would been in Jail came looking for Brandon Michelle, shocked, friends. Confronted her, she confessed that Brandon was dead. She repeated her story of how Brandon died with detective after she made it herself to the local psych unit. Days later she checked out of the unit and refused to reveal where she had hidden Brandon's body. She was sure she had gotten away with murder. Then she would have, except the detective, didn't believe her story.

He enlisted the help of a novice prosecutor, because no experience prosecutor would take the case. In Indiana, no one had ever been addictive murder, without a body that prosecutors written a book that it's like a mystery novel instead of the real murder prosecution. Truth is fanfiction where Santeria curses, the law and politics are only a few of the obstacles to justice to book. The featuring this evening is in it's gone. The short tragic life of Brandon Sims, with my special guest journalist and author and attorney Diane Margin more welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Diane Margar Moore. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. Thank you very much. It's a fascinating case and your bird's eye perspective here as prosecutor makes this even more fascinating. Let's get right

to a little bit about your legal background and how you came to Ebay involved in this case and want to write about it, but first tell us how you became first involved in this case and your legal background. Ari had thank you, a gradual, get it through the dealership, Georgia, law, school and spent a member for years as a criminal defense lawyer, and when I married my husband, he was from Indiana, and so I moved to that state and not knowing anyone. I was fortunate, to be hired as deputy attorney general. Where I worked for several years and then I was able to get back and be hired by Marion County prosecutor's office. Although I'd already been a lawyer for nearly fifteen years, I've never prosecuted the case and So I was given the opportunity

primarily is the cheap arson prosecutor. But after handling a couple arson, murder cases, my door seemed seem to be open to other types of cases and that's how I ended up with this case when it detective just knocked out my door and began to talk to me about the case. At time. I've been a prosecutor for about six months. Now we talked about in the introduction, we introduced the idea that you said that no, Prosecutor, would really look at this. So explain a little bit about how you come to be the prosecutor and based on. Sort of the problem that you have with that. What does sergeant Michael Crook tell you that prompts. You could definitely want to be involved with this. Well, I think prosecutors, like other people, lie

to prosecute cases that they're not only convinced of personally, but that they believe they can win an in this case, because because the so was nobody is it in Indiana there's requirement that one proved the body the of the crime and normally in a murder case. It's the body that establish is that it's called the Corpus Delec tie. So in this case, with nobody having been found, it was going to be a very difficult case to prosecute. But my crook, who at the time, was a sergeant in the homicide unit and a very respected detective, just felt certain that this mother had done something

so horrible that she needed to be prosecuted. And after going to the more experienced homicide prosecutors who had wonderful records because they only took cases that will Way to succeed and having knocked on a number of doors, he came to my door. Ask whether I would at least assist him in trying to get the case filed in some form. Yes, you say that you were pretty well convinced that he was going to do this regardless, and so he was we determine and that's one thing. I think that really caught your attention. Now, what is the story that he relates to you that was related to him at this midtown, which is, I guess, a unit at them at the mental hospital at the mental hospital? Yes, my crook was the duty officer,

I'm sergeant in the homicide unit, when a uniformed off answer explained to him that they received call from Wishard, which is the mental Health unit of Dade County Hospital, though the woman had admitted that her son had died, while in her care, the officer hadn't gotten very specific with it about it, but it was in not for my crocs to return to the hospital and speak to the admissions clerk. The admissions clerk explain to him separate Shell Jones, a young woman, had come in allegedly having nervous problems because she had finally disclose goes to friends that her son, Brandon Sims, who had four years old, had died when she left him along for a pee

period of about a week in their apt two years earlier, quick tried to speak to Michelle Jones. At that point, right, but was told that she had been seriously sedated, and so he would have to come back by the time that I spoke to sort. Jim crook? He had gone back and interviewed Michelle Jones and she had related a similar story to him. Now, with that information with that red relation to you, how did you proceed And how did the further contact with Michelle proceed with sergeant, crook and yourself? Well, obviously, the way that most prosecutions determine whether or not a death is accidental,

voluntary, manslaughter or murder is to examine the body for evidence of how the death occured Miss tell Jones is a brilliant woman and she had told song crooked that you would show him where the body was, and obviously he was very anxious for that one, because he felt he needed the body to prove murder, but also so that Brandon's body could be exam going to determine how he had died, whether he he had died. Should family or whether he had been killed in some other manner. So when sergeant Kirk went back to take Michelle to look for the body, She refused to go with him and refused to show him the body and because of that with nobody the question was: how do you build what is essential be a circumstantial case,

because in Indiana Michelle statements would not be admissible in less, we could independently proved that Brandon had died, and that was the we'll challenge is how to do that. How did you plan to do that and what happens with the again with the contact? What what point does she stopped contact with sergeant crook and speak to a lawyer, still in the hospital when she, so she told something to the admissions clerk she was actually admitted? Then she met with MIKE Crook when the hospital there was also a nursing staff present during that interview and my cork had agreed to come back in a couple of days. So that he could take her and she would show him the scene in that

Currently a nurse- and we don't know this for certain, but apparently someone in the hospital referred her to a criminal defense attorney and at that point he advised the detective to. No further contact with Michelle Jones, and that was his last contact at that point in time. Now, right away sergeant crook, he does an investigation and he found Without background information about Machine Ingram Jones, who you say twenty years old, tell us he finds and that trail, he quickly is trying to look for the biological father in any other relatives and any other family. Who does he find? Who does he speak to first telescope that progress sure well because Misha Jones was in a mental facility. The first question was:

did she really have a son named Brandon Sims? Was he missing or was he dead, and so the first thing to do was to check charging cork checked for birth records and found out that we, you sounds had indeed have a son named Brandon Lamar Sims on the date that she had told him. She had him and she had identified. The father of Brandon. Sims accurately is Kevin Sims an it was fairly Easy for detective crooked to meet with Kevin Sims, because he's been looking really furiously for his son. And the grandmother of Misha Tell Jones so was able to confirm some the information that Michelle Jones had given him said she did have a son. What his age was even met with Kevin Sims

or when the last contact had been. He met with Arlene Blevins, who was the grandmother, and then he started speak with Michelle Jones family she found out was that Michelle become pregnant at fourteen or early fifteen years old. She given birth when she was fifteen. Her mother may in ground had some serious issues Michelle and with her pregnancy. There was some alleged abuse. Anne Michelle had ultimately been put in a group home, so Michelle spent set full years in the foster care system. So those were the people in fat. He went further and met with Michelle's aunts, cousins. He did everything he could do

she weather. For example, Michelle had placed custody or forgiven brand into a family member to keep for her because he hasn't been seen in years and he was able to determine from all of the people that no one had seen Brandon for more than two years now he's talking to the very important grandmother, Arlene Blevins He finds out the information about the maintenance of Brandon, who is taking care of him in the family. As you mentioned, tell us about our. Blevins, in her role in Brandon's life, sure when Brandon was born and mother, I said, was a teenager and she was living in a group home and the option was to uh they put Brandon and foster care or to allow him

just stay with a family member Kevin Simms. The father was still involved with me shell, but, more importantly, he really wants to be a good father of this child. So he and his mother Arlene took Brandon into their home Kevin was still living at home with his mother, Arlene Arlene, had worked at the same job more than twenty years she was very stable. She was loving and she adored having this little boy and in fact she kept him for nearly three years while he was in her her care. She took him to. Is it his mother to try and create a bond there? She took him to doctors, appointments to the extent that Kevin could he involved and Arlene just love this little guy,

but she never had legal custody in the sense that Michelle was the biological mother and Michelle had never turned over her rights. So, at a point in time when Michelle became an adult, she insisted that Arlene give and then back to her and Arlene offered support financial babe. He sitting caring for any thing that Michelle needed. You talk about to that. There was a period of time when the Father is incarcerated, just tell us about when he's incarcerated than for Wat and the care continued from his mother. While he was incarcerated. Yes, Brandon got into some trouble for a bird

sorry that he committed. He was, I guess played guilty and he went to prison for a little over a year and a half or two years, and during all of that time, Arlene Blevins took care of brands in awhile but it was a joy to her. You know you could see her eyes light up when she talked about this wonderful bright child who, you know, got into everything because he he wanted to explore and he was just a he was larger than his. What would normally be for child his age, and so we could climb on the counters and get into things, and she just said he was a joyful little guy who love dancing and listening to music right.

And during this time, when Kevin, the Father was in prison, was there contact between Michelle and the Father and did he try to con? tact was there that contact that father interest from Kevin? Yes, Although the jury wasn't allowed to hear much of this Brandon had repeatedly written to Michelle Jones, asking for pictures of his son after Michelle had taking the baby for Marlene. She had precluded Arlene from having any contact with him and Show Brandon wrote regularly to Michelle. She said TIM only one photograph ever of brand again, and it was a really disturbing photographs, because the one photographs

Brandon who obviously screaming and unhappy- but that was the only photograph after that, Michelle cut off all contact between Brandon and Kevin. You talk. About the Arlene's attempt as a grandmother that was, she did We really get to see Brandon after the time that she gave Brandon back up to Michelle, but she made incredible attempts to try to offer babysitting any kind of to be able to see Brandon and she was rebuffed. Wasn't she. Oh yeah, I mean what you know. Sometimes single mothers have problems because they do have babysitters or it gets too search for them and Arlene tried in every way she could to

let Michelle know that she wanted to continue to assist Michelle and, in fact, Arlene was so desperate that a couple time she drove by the mosque that Michelle had joined when she married. I don't know how many times she drove by in an effort to try and see Brandon, but she did see him at least twice and engine ran into her arms into her car Anne. Michelle claim that she would let Arlene see him at some other point, but really never did now part of this investigation from the dedicated sergeant, crook and yourself trying to prosecute this trying to get enough evidence, be able to

get around Indiana LAW and be able to prosecute this person, for something that you knew was likely a murder, he knew in your heart and definitely sergeant crooked. It. How also does he proceed, and you mentioned about the mosque, so tell us a little bit about what he finds out about her religiosity and some of the people that we're surrounding that religious interested. She had that the group was able to find well, I don't know that she add religiosity other than joining various groups, but what I can say is that, shortly after she name an adult and while she was still in foster care, she had met day and Jones Dream. Jones was a musician that I dance that she went to an sh.

He became involved with Damon, who was. Was very involved with the nation of Islam and was muslim, and she married Jones and became part of the church, and so, as a result of that, she was involved in those activities. When Sergeant Corp was in masticating, he knew that some of the members of the mosque had been involved with Michelle. In fact the woman. She had been living with at the time she checked herself into wishard was one of the members of the mosque, but He hesitated to really contact them at that point because he didn't know what the reaction would be. So he learned as much as you could about Michelle.

Well, she was still working at Eli Lilly. She had an excellent job with an excellent employer, Eli Lilly is a pharmaceutical company, but in Indianapolis it's known as one of the best employers they provide free daycare for children. They provide all sorts of benefit, so obviously medical and health care. So one of the thing things that we wanted to find out a way to locate him was charging crooked checked. All the schools in the area, because by the time the investigation, occured Brandon should have been in first or second grade. So he checked with all the schools to see if Brandon have been registered. Look in a near the county happy Eli, Lilly records that showed that Brandon had been on Michelle's health care for sure period of time and then taken off. That's pretty unusual, so

those were the things that we began to build the evidence. Finally,. Mike crook apparently- and we had talked about this in some ways- my crook filed a missing persons report and the Juven on Brandon, which I guess his father and grandmother just thought of doing um, and that got the case into a juvenile court situation. Right. Now you explain to that. You need a lot of evidence to be able to proceed with this, but you

You have enough evidence for what you call a b felony a class b felony, and that is regarding the Glaxo, tell our audience about this concept of neglect and how serious a sentence that might be in the goal of ultimate goal of trying to prosecute for murder. Absolutely the neglect of a dependent is a crime in almost every state, I believe every state, but they call it a little differently. Neglect of a dependent can be anything from a very minor felony to a more major felony and that's based on the type of neglected is and what I think that most people, at least in the s, were custom. Two is leaving a child in a hot car that is, neglect

sing your child in a situation that may cause serious health problems. In Indiana, neglect of a dependent varies based on whether or not the child has actually been injured, and if the child is injured or killed as a result of class b felony carrying a potential twenty year sentence and What happened was Michelle in juvenile court admitted that Brandon was dead and described and had already did scribe to others how he died, which was she left him alone, and at that point we felt that the case was strong enough to charge her with neglective indypendent. Resulting in serious bodily injury or death, and that's what we did is charge sure with the b felony. Now there's a crucial at least it sounds like in this book: that's a very crucial development

that you say if she had pled guilty that she couldn't be charged. The murder later so tell us what the movie was an. Why do you think? Why do you think so someone made a misstep there. Why someone didn't see the ramifications that why would they do that and risk what they did? Well as a b felony, and because Misha DOW Jones had some sympathetic, you know his tree being in foster care being as young as she was being a single mother. It was my concern once charge the b felony that she would come in and she would plead guilty to that if she had There was no minimum mandatory, so she could have received probation she could Oh she's, a very short sentence. I think it's a matter of Eragon's, I think,

Michelle Jones thought that she was going to get away with killing her son? In fact, she chose not to take any action other than to fight the charges. Which she had every right to do and demand a jury trial, but that if she had pledged to the to the b felony because of Gg Equity of the United States Constitution, we never could have tried her for murder. She would have avoided that charge and the reason is because, as I said, the neglect the way we charged it was neglect causing serious bodily injury or death and that is of the same factual basis as a murder would have been, and so double jeopardy would have precluded us

charging her later with murder. If we had found Brandon's body or if we'd obtained enough evidence to prove murder. But she chose not you. Testing. I guess movie asks moment happens here when now Brooke gets a call. You guys are dry living together and he gets his call. Is this position turns much different, you say, turns white and he puts the on and your heading to. Crown Hill cemetery tell us, put this call and why on earth you be heading to the cemetery, an what do you find their apon arrival up to that point, I had thought that Michael Crook could not be disturbed by anything. He was one of those very experienced Tameside, guys that you sort of picture just

shakeable, but as we were driving, this phone call came in and lights inside, friends, we were headed to Crown Hill cemetery. In crown, hill cemetery is the oldest and largest cemetery in Indianapolis driven by it. I've never been there, but when we got there, we found out that someone had left in the children's section against a tree, something that appeared to be human flesh or a lump of human, something um and, needless to say, it was very disturbing. When we arrived, there were a number of very high ranking Indianapolis Police Department officers present and but

what had been found was inside of a boy brown paper bag at that point, an as they looked in the bag. There was this chunk of red d, something along with some earth and looked like spices and a white piece of paper on the White P. The paper was sergeant crooked name the day, my boss, the elected prosecutor. The name is pretty much of everyone who had been involved in the case they found, and they all seem to find it rather disturbing you talk about what they think.

Is. This may be human flesh and, of course, everyone's concerned, and you took a look in the bag. Tell our audience what ends up this be and the relevance to again religion. When I looked in the bag, I see What I believed was a beef tongue. It's a large needy tongue- and I grew up in and was familiar with. Various things relate need to do, do but also I've eat and my mother is cooked beef tongue. So when I saw it to me, it was some form of warning and ultimately, please also

determined and medical examiner determined that it was a beef tongue and it became I'm a very important, not a clue clue, but a substantial factor, in the credibility of witness cool later came forward. Yes, let's use this as an opportunity. Opportunity, Diana top stuff for a second to talk about our sponsor third love use, thousands of real women's measurements, third love design, kids, bras with breast size and shape and mine, so they fit impeccably. Third just added twenty four new sizes. Third love as the most sizes of any brand cups from a through each bands. Up to forty eight each size is designed specifically for a perfect fit women falling between Standard cup sizes through third love invented, half cup sizing,

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that Michelle Jones, who she knew as a practitioner of Santa Rea, admitted to her that she had beaten, Brandon before she abandoned him for a week and we which came home Brandon, had died, but it that phone call she didn't leave her name contact information and the prosecutors office way back then had an ability to determine what incoming pro members were and so after waiting a day or two Cal Bradford chief trial counsel called her back reached her mother, and it was ultimately spoke with her and found doubt that Michelle had left Indianapolis

after the juvenile court action when she was charged with neglect. She was on bond and Michelle had gone and tried to use Santa Rea as a means of both membership. So the community and had you this woman to try and create spells to harm and dissuade her prosecution to harm those will prosecuting her. Ultimately, there was the word spell if you want to call them that quote: Dunlap not call them spell, she calls them works. Ultimately, there were works, including the name of the trial judge. So Michelle had gone into this Santer. We a group

in order to try and keep from being prosecuted for murder this endeavor to try to do that. Do you have a murder charge October? Two the second one thousand nine hundred and ninety six and she's two thousand and twenty four years old. You talk about that in India, prosecutors: don't have to go to the grand jury to charge someone And they file instead, something called an information. A charging document just briefly explain that difference to our audience sure in some places and in the little system in order to charge particularly capital crime. Such is murder, a grand jury is convened and that's normally

twenty six members of the community who hear the prosecution side of the evidence and make a determination as to whether or not there is probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and if they believe that, then an indictment can be found. Its famously been said by one of our well love jurists that a good prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich in Indiana. Rub. In Indiana, rather than going through the time, the cost, the expense a prosecutor can. Charge an individual with any crime by filing an information. What happens when the document is filed? Is that a court, a judge acts instead

is a grand jury to review the evidence and a term and whether or not there is probable cause for the information, and the judge has to say sign off on the information, but essentially the judges substitute did for grand jury proceeding now. Indiana still huh the grand jury, but they use them in different ways with complicated corruption or large conspiracy cases. You talk about another witness contacting prosecution. Her name is JANET Morris uh. Who is JANET Morrison? What did she? Perhaps? We have to say to prosecution, prosecutors. Remember we're putting together a case without the body, so we have to prove that a murder happened and that

border happened in the way that we claim it did, which is well had said that she had left brand in home alone in his apartment at the Georgetown apartments, we've gone to the Georgetown apartments, meaning sergeant crook in myself, and when that we've been able to find not on the carpet, because three has been in the same apartment. Thank you Michelle and each time I attend that last or was about to move. Then they clean the carpet. But when we pulled up the carpet under the carpet in the pad, we we found some human dna which we he believed was likely to be blood.

When the testing was done, the dna was too degraded to determine that the court would not allow the jury to hear about it, but we still knew that something had happened in that apartment, so this phone call came in and it was from. The manager of the apartment. Who'd went to the apartment to Michelle Jones She recalled- and this was after some publicity in the newspaper- that's how she came forward. People were learning about the case and we're. Obviously it was pretty high profile. She related to us a day that she said she never forget. As she was doing her inspection around the apartment buildings. She came to the apartment that much Shell Jones had rented. It was a first floor apartment. And the window nearest the parking lot and the sidewalk was the smallest bedroom, which we knew was branded

as she came by this bedroom window on a summer day she saw thousands thousands of flies swarming in the bedroom, yeah incredible. Witness comes forward or you are able to find out who she is and this talks about. We talked about Michelle being talented. And appreciated and doing a lot of volunteer work define What about all that theater work and Deborah Assante? And this I ironically, you know her involvement, Dell's involvement in children's theatre, and you say they met in eighty eight or eighty nine tell us a little bit about what Deborah Asantae tells sergeant crook, Deborah Sontay created a children's theatre

in the black community in Indianapolis, which was an incredible thing. This woman engage children from all. Social, economic backgrounds to participate in the arts and to encourage them in the arts. She also so Images of mentor for a mother's program for teenage mothers in her community, and it was through that program that she met Michelle Jones and mentored her. For a brief time and later, Michelle Jones came to the children's theater and name an intricate part of of that cedar for period of time, Deborah Sunday. Was had actually taken, Michelle Invention's

I wish we didn't describe it as a convention, more of a get together of theater groups throughout the country for the period of time that, was ultimately determined. That was the period of time that Michelle had left Brandon at a four year old child home alone, for at least four. And maybe more days. She had asked like concerned, person might or a friend might where Brandon was and what was Michelle's response to who was taken care of Brandon, while they're in Detroit. Call Michelle misled her. Obviously Michelle said that Brandon was with a babysitter and in fact then had stayed at periods of time with a babysitter named loot, EVA Parker Mohammed, but.

Brandon was alone, and Michelle not only left him there, but during this event that she attended with Deborah Shante had a very good time talk about the the four days and talk about the really good time. She also confides in her friend that, while she's on this trip, that's a business some pleasure in networking that you also meet someone when you talk about four days, possibly more and later, we'll find out where she says she was gone for about a week. I don't think you spell it out completely, but is there a possibility? She didn't go did you spend any other days rather than those four days and with this man just to add even more sinister nature to her time

from summer son? No, I don't think so. We know that after she returned and Brandon was dead, that within a few weeks she did go to Georgia visit the man she met at this. Ok, it's theater group, but it appeared that she went home right after the convention because she was driving Deborah sontay. Ok, ok, I misunderstood. Now, let's talk about Let AVA Muhammad and what her role was and with Brandon and with Michelle and what she had to say about the last few days will table like like Deborah Shaunte is this incredibly maternal lovely, caring, woman?

She and her husband were part of the mosque and she had a show grin who were her. Son was about a year or two older than Brandon and she had offered and how and Michelle had taken her up on Babysitting Brandon, while Michelle was at work because miss work days at Lily and then did a number of things at night. So what EVA Parker took bread then, and just really again, he was just this in Deering, DOE, eyed, child. She so him at the last at the last time he was publicly seen and at her son's birthday party and.

Brandon has been invited to the birthday party and she let EVA had expected Michelle Brandon up that evening, you know attend the party with the other kids and in fact, without a phone. Call or anything else. Michelle had just left him there for a couple of days. You talk about some. The talk of how he was in the homemade, who does he mention or pardon me it is Michelle, mentioned too the pro vision, she's left for this child when she goes for the four day trip to Detroit. Close one interesting Lee yeah to one of her friends, condition Amir, who also known as Mahalia Amir and Kadisha, is friends with an's

in the same general age group as well Table Parker is a little younger than on Deborah Shaunte. Judicio also had a child who is in the theatre group, and Michelle was staying with her for a period of time when Kevin Simms was able to determine that Michelle was living with Kadisha Amir. He and his mother knocked on the door of Kiddush Aamir to try and find Michelle, and that's the quote that you talked about from the beginning of the book. To teach yeah then brought Deborah Shontae to the house, and the two of them can haunted Michel and said Michelle. Where is Brandon before we talk about that. The incredible statement made

to Kevin and his grandmother when they're looking for Brandon. What are they told, what the we're told by Michelle to Kevin and in his his mother's horror? Well, for two years, Michelle all had told. Fantasia Deborah anyone she spoke with that Kevin had Brandon, even though Kevin actually in prison that kept he had married and he and his wife had Brandon or alternatively, she had said that Brandon was with glad and they had not so now confrontation from Deborah Sante and condition there. What does

Michelle admit to and and what's their reaction, what do they advise. Michelle claims that she left a little plate of food for brand in his room and then left for days. She says that. When she returned Brandon with dad, she was terrified she wrapped going to blanket put him in the car and. Laid him alongside a roadway. She is crying in this explanation. She seems to be very, very stressed: what are these two friends Reka

and did she do as a result, so they obviously cared about her Deborah Chante said that she was so shocked. She couldn't even listen, but Tiesha Amir suggested that she get counseling and condition Amir went with her and sat with her to the admissions process at the psych unit at Wishard Memorial Hospital, incredible. Now, in this to there's another very profound is: do I guess- and it's really it's relevant and I'll, get you to explain this. Even though he's a four year old boy, he is diagnosed with a condition and the condition uh huh certain characteristics within. So what is his condition and then, who does

Michelle tell about this condition and hurry action to that diagnosis and Brandon's future. When Brandon was about, two are Bing Blevins noticed that he was growing too fast and had some characteristics more appropriate for much older little guy, and so because is Michelle had very good insurance to Lily. Michelle took him to a pediatric specialist and the pediatric specialist determined that Brandon had what's called precocious puberty and it's a chai how to grows and develops way too quickly.

And so Brandon by the time he was three and a half had her in places that most folks don't genitals, were developing more rapidly and the dog sure had strongly recommended treatment. It doesn't stop, but it slows these things from happening and the reason for that is ultimately the ultimate result is the children are very, very short. They have they grow rapidly, but then, when they should be growing, they don't when the final diagnosis came in it was still living with Arlene and of course, Arlene wanted to know what the doctor had said and Michelle told her.

What the condition was, but then commented I, Ain't going to raise note freak incredible, let's fast, forward to the trial 'cause. Needless to say, you have more, though enough evidence, regardless of the standards, tell us a little bit, because we don't have to how much time but tell us some of the highlights of this trial. You do right that, of course, it's a defense that and challenges and endless motions and argumentative- and you even say, cross the line in some areas. You believed, but tell us what the most important part

of this trial were in terms of obstacles for you for this prosecution. Well, the key witness in the case Clarissa Dunlap with the Santa Rear, priestess. In a very conservative heartland City, Presen saying that evidence, um. Because she is the only witness to whom Michelle confessed, having actually beaten Brandon before leaving right and so dealing with that presenting her incredible way and building the other, or did that theory, for example- and this is you know, jurors actually commented at a later point. Why would. Why would.

The mother have to leave a little plate of food for a four year old, who was capable of open refrigerator himself. So it's putting together of those small details, Why would a child? You know? We tried to present evidence that there was no lock on the door and that Brandon was capable of getting water, and ah just food in the house if there had been food, so I think that Dish Amir was a Nick stream. Lee important witness and course of Dunlap was subject to all sorts of attacks, I have variety of individuals, and I didn't suggest that I mean the defense search only tried very hard and did what they are obligated. Do in a trial was

will attacks on me. You know, but that comes with the territory. I guess yeah. Now in this, you were successful in getting the verdict that you wanted. What is Michelle Jones demeanor like during this whole thing. I never Michelle was an and I believed tool is an attractive woman. She never have any facial expressions I never heard her speak a word until the sentencing, so I mean she. Certainly. Sheen to speak with her lawyers, and I saw her- I mean many times whispering to them, but she is there. She just.

We certainly did not expressed grief over branded one of things that I mean how lawyers never mentioned. What was that statement at sentencing. At sentencing she said she wasn't a murderer and it was a very short statement. Uh her lawyers had put on a great deal of evidence and hired. You know. Jury consultants, sorry that sentencing consultants in all of that, but Michelle said she was sorry for pain that she had caused Kevin and Arlene, but never mention Brandon and

never showed us the true place where Brandon Body was right? What was the media response? We've you write about it, but we haven't spoken about it. How did the media treat this? Why circus. There was in the circus the the news. People really was. Certainly we those highly publicized, but they were very respectful. I mean this was the death of a small child, so I felt that they were very respectful of all the parties.

What was the jury awarded game. Well, that's a new one. What was the? What was the verdict and did it take a long time to for them to come to their decision? What was there, but it didn't it was very surprising after a week, long trial. I believe they were out a little over two hours The jury found Michelle guilty on all of the both of murder and neglective independent, causing serious bodily injury in case the jury had been allowed to answer. Ask questions during the trial, and so I believe that that may have. Oz that they needed to come to a verdict. Now, in this book, we talk about the verdict sentence.

And the reaction, the community and of You talk about how you felt as well. But you do talk about an event the preempted this book, journalist contacts you and you had gotten the transcript from this trial that you prosecuted so tell us what your your feelings are, And might surprise some people, your feelings about rehabilitation and, as you write redemption well after the, this case and others. I became a judicial officer in Indiana and a magistrate master commissioner and I believe in rehabilitation. I believe that we send people to prison, yes to punish them, but also to help them become better people, and Michelle Jones

spent twenty years in prison did a number of positive things and was accepted to Harvard on a full scholarship to obtain a phd. What I icsp rest was that I believe it's important that, after someone has served their sons and serve their time, that we give them opportunity. And I continue to believe that and that withdrawing her scholarship. We is not it a wise decision, it also kept the most of knowledge just about being in prison and a number of other things that she could have shared away from the students um. But I also see suggested, and the article talked about that much DOW Jones had redemption.

And I highly question that. I don't know that anyone is ever. Redeemed from torturing and killing their four year old child yeah? Absolutely sergeant crook You were work closely with them with this. What was your reaction after what any comments and contacts anything to say about sergeant, crook? Well, he he left the he retired from the Indiana from the Indianapolis Police Department, which is now the in the area. Nablus Marion County Police Department and he is the chief of the Cumberland, please Department, Indiana Indiana. I think Cumberland

has one heck of a good investigative chief. Sergeant crook and I never became close friends, but I consider him an exceptional human being and investigator police officer. Absolutely it is you book is really a testament to his dedication as well and and yours in this particular case, and it was a fascinating story- inconvenience gone, I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about inconvenience gone. The tragic shorts life of Brandon Sims This is a is this: a wild blue press, publication and. And served. You have a website for this book or facebook page. Can you tell us a little bit about that contact if there is some wild blue press is the way to con but of course the book is available

on Kindle and in prayer. And there will be an audio book of it all of those two wild blue press, that's fantastic I want to thank you very much Diane Margar more for this interview. It has been fascinating. I hope to talk to you again, real soon. Thank you very for this interview. Thank you, goodnight. Yes,.

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