Invisible Darkness is the story of one of the more bizarre cases in recent memory--killings so sensational that they prompted the Canadian government, in the interests of justice, to silence its national press and to lock foreign journalists out of the courts.To all appearances, Paul and Karla Bernardo had a fairytale marriage--beautiful working-class girl weds bright upper-middle-class guy and they buy a fashionable dream house in the suburbs. But, bored with his straight, prestigious accounting job, Paul soon went freelance as an international smuggler. He also revealed his boredom with conventional sex--enough so that, one Christmas Eve, he persuaded his wife to drug her own sister and engage in a menage a trois, during which the sister died (a bungling coroner ruled her death accidental).The couple then upped the ante, kidnapping and imprisoning several high school girls for sexual marathons, which they videotaped before savagely murdering their captives. When the girls' bodies were found, the police were stymied (although Paul had been accused of rape and given a DNA test that vanished for two years and only recently was linked to some fifty sexual-assault cases) until Karla tried to have her husband arrested for wife beating. During questioning, she confessed to the crimes and is now serving two concurrent twelve-year sentences for manslaughter in exchange for testifying against her husband who was jailed for life. INVISIBLE DARKNESS-The Strange Case of Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka-Stephen Williams
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dtk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening,
Steven Williams is a writer, an investigative journalist. His reputation was solidified by the continuing success of two books: invisible darkness, the horrifying case of Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka and Carla- a pact with the devil which were critically acclaimed as apocalyptic stories set in landscapes of suburban deviance. His nonfiction work has been compared with, of Norman Mailer and Truman, Capote Steven has been twice arrested to do with his writing once in nineteen, ninety eight and again in two thousand and three criminally charged with over one hundred counts of disobeying court orders, an publication bands twice put on trial over an eight year period between one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight and two thousand and five in twice exonerated. The attorney general Michael Bryant, also
pursued Williams in two thousand and three as an enemy of the state alleging he was in possession of sensitive court documents, the lawsuit sought, unspecified damages and the seizure of Williams, research and archives. Although the courts and police seized his computers and files, the lawsuit did not succeed The dimension of these attacks on a writer unusual, even in totalitarian regimes, but in democratic countries like Canada, in the United States, they're outrageous and speak to an ugly streak of sublimated totalitarianism, These events not only turn the writer into a prominent character in the stories he was documenting too well for the authorities liking, but we're also vile attempts to denigrate that work and controversy, controversial eyes and even criminalize him in recognition of same Steven was given the Helmand how
award by the human rights watch the award is presented annually to journalists have been prosecuted by totalitarian regimes such as China and IRAN. The book that we are featuring this evening is invisible darkness with my special guest journalist and author Stephen Williams, welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Steven Williams nice to hear from you Dan. Thank you for returning for the to discuss invisible, darkness again, a true crime classic and our audience will find out why? Let's start because we have this introduced introduction at really. I think it will be a surprise to our american and international audience Let's start with I'll tell our audience where you were in your career when you heard about the
the Paul Bernardo and When did you decide or were in listed to write about this case? An become inextricably involved in this horrifying case of Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka. Tell us about that. Actually, it was a winter, very ugly, winter up in the country, and I was sitting at my desk on a Sunday afternoon and thinking that the life wasn't going quite the way I wanted it to go. Uh I hate, been working in advertising and public relations. Even though I'd written a dozen or fifteen feature magazine piece, is and then gotten distracted by the pursuit of money and capital and prestige, and thinking that
It was time that I really focused done something different. I was going through a number of newspapers as well. I want I, I used to collect the papers and look at the monitor When I noticed a lot article in a tabloid newspaper, very long for a tabloid journal of four five folio paid describe all, but our goal in news saying Catherine's and terror which is very close to the american border. It's about a ten minute drive from Niagara falls, both canadian and American, and a sort of depressed town, because it. Reliant on the the auto industry, and that was in
Disarray at that point and the idea that this sort of get a well educated accountant person had been arrested. Suddenly in thank aspirins for the at that point all no one was that he was being arrested for the Scarborough Rapes, a series of rapes that started in nineteen eighty seven and concluded in nineteen in the early 1990s that he was being are good for those an in the in the bottom parts of the article it Descri and the fact that he lived in Saint Catherines with his young wife who was a veterinary clinic assistant
in it you know a native of St Catharines and I thought to myself the the something there's something wrong with this situation is going wrong with this scenario rapists are very rare at any rate in criminal history, but the idea that that this guy was down in their living with a a young, attractive, whoom and was bad. In fact, married to her and and my question, just decided to write a note to a half a dozen publishers that I knew uh, uh saying you know, the real question here is what was this woman, doing while this man when was out raping pillaging right, the real question to be answered is is: is that question?
who is about a paragraph or maybe a paragraph and a half the shortest thing. I think I've ever and because I I really that that really struck me and a so. I sent it out to a half a dozen publishers. This is Sunday afternoon, but in those days by fax and on Monday, I had three offers a do: a book plus plus an offer from an international publisher who said that we would do things to make sure that we got an American and they English deal. So that was that that's how it started Some newspapers on dark winter afternoon up in the country and uh there you go. No one had any idea no way the one thing to make clear is that no one it
first of all, no one. There were two or three other juror, a newspaper people who did books on the case eventually, but no one had ever asked the ever asked the question about the woman and know what and I didn't know what the situation was with her or if there even was as you, let's start with, because we can't go right to the beginning and a lot of most people have a really good sort of framework of what the story is about. But of course your book goes much much further. Let's talk about the situation with Vince Bevin at the same time, the Scarborough rapist. As you said, he was on the loose from eighty seven till ninety four 90s. So let's talk about the situation in
what we call the gta, the greater Toronto area, now about six million people or so- and we talked to you- mention the Saint Catherine's, a little small place outside of Toronto. Niagara falls. So, let's start with the green ribbon task force. That's assembled at the same time that Vince Bevin is in St Catharines right, it's of it think even then, was sort of a bedroom community. To Toronto. If it lets out it located geographically great number of people that lived in the nicer parts of Niagara on the lake, where the Shah Festival is very close to Saint Catherine's. A great number of people can set it to Toronto or or were extra antonians living in the. Nice area, the Niagara Parks and an Niagara, falls all that sort of thing. The interesting thing about Vince Bevan, who was
was eventually made. The the word, I'm looking for the the head there, the chief of the of the green ribbon task force the task force that Say a stab lish to look into what became multiple strange sexual homicides was basic, create a hometown boy from that area whose father had been a policeman an basically a policeman son from our policing family, who was a few guys who had gotten an education and actually had a university degree and it's sort of become involved with
uh information technology, it it. You know in police, IP applications for it and somehow, over a period of some months, because this all was the mystery. They didn't apprehended Cardova immediately the story goes back to you know even years where he was free and inexplicably totally free, an the Niagara regional police would have been spelling was employed were getting anywhere at at scepter, but at this point in time, When he was arrested, he had been made the head of the green ribbon task force, which was a task force that refused have any anybody from the trauma
regional ever from the Toronto police force involved. Let me rephrase got that wrong. The green ribbon task force was formed from a series of smaller police forces in and around the region, Hamilton Burlington, peel whatever, but the Toronto police force, who were the people who actually identified is the rape as a rapist, would refuse to have anything to do with this task force that was formed under Vince FAB. So. You have a regional task force that is the and we set up against the major Read in the whole region, which is the Trono police force, it's like setting the New York police force against. You know the the
horse and a new Jersey or Connecticut or something right sure so you've got. I hang up a police force that is there or a task force that has twelve or fourteen diff police force members working in the task force, and it's in it's in an antiseptic. It's in attempt assist to the force. It's actually caught the for M, the evidence that brought Bernardo to their attention. Finally, now let's talk about.
Bernardo is questioned, and so let's go back to when Bernardo is question not arrested but questioned. Who does the questioning? What do they ask him? What do they get from him? And then what is his reaction and the conversation with Carla? Because I think that? Well, we know that that is important in this story. Well, it certainly interesting prior to his arrest, which, if I'm not mistaken it's along time ago mean it was prior to the Oj Simpson trial in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five. So I think we're. I think it was in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, but prior to Benardos arrest. He was interviewed once as the metropolitan Toronto police. Way back in, I think ninety in the one thousand nine hundred and ninety and the Toronto police, that interview
They were interviewing on the basis that he resembled a Komposit sketch of the Scarborough Rapist It did raping women in Toron Toe and then your beauty him that an for a number of reasons, partly because he was a character very much like The detectives who interviewed him he was about their age in Toronto, these peace to detective the interview it in both were university educated that happened in Toron toe. They were they are fairly good, looking attractive guy and when they accept the interview benardo, they had nothing except a few people saying he looked like a Kompass it drawing and when they say ' looked at him. They thought well. He looks like I just like us, so the
there. They they never know antenna, went up and the problem was in those days. Dna testing was a prolonged issue and they had hundreds of samples from Various rapes and murders, and what not at in that the forensic center at the trauma police force and since these guys, weren't tip it didn't, have a feeling about this guy. The all the samples they had continuous it on there. Shelf in the lab. In the meantime Bernardo walks away from this scenario. Thinking that he's invincible.
'cause. I clearly there's nothing going to happen. He goes down at this point. He's has a relationship with Carla in Saint Catherine she's still living with his parents in Scarborough. He goes down to Saint Catherines and tells Carla that he's to Scarborough rape. It basically tells her that he's the Scarborough rapist and they just interviewed an it- was a cyst Erekle about it and what not listen that and she is, does the corner. So the sisters death is world. Accidental or death by his fixations caused by vomiting, and so now you have a man who has committed, you know half a dozen maybe,
eight or nine rapes in Scarborough gotten away with it it at least, is the way he sees it gone decided to move into his fiancee in quotes house with their parents, and you know, with her help successfully with her younger sister x, that it wasn't that successful. Given she died and now there. They're in a house that that is in this hysterical still there there. Yes, absolutely ok, so. Paul and Karla decide to move out because the parents, naturally a grieving and hysterical, decide that
not the appropriate time for them to be married, but they're not having any of that. So they moved and they reckon a house in a high end area of of Niagara region down there at a sort of suburban an area out right on Lake Ontario called for to lose the they rent a house there, and then they can on their way now for those people that are shocked by the the rape wedding present Christmas present for Paul Bernardo. We were doing this out of order, but because this is coverage doesn't happen to much much later and and so tell us
What was what was their plan after Tammy had been accidentally killed, they've gotten away with it, but what is our plan after it? What do these two people cook up and and if you can go through this, what they did in the evening and Tammy's room with Tammy's clothing videotaping. Tell us a little about that before we talk about Jane DOE. Well, wait a minute of all there's an argument to be made that, a ten min's death was at least a second degree murder. There's arguments to be made that neither of them intended her to die, but the
there's. Also, a very strong legal argument could be made that the new enough that this is what their actions would, their action, would produce so they're, not war. It would be at least second degree murder, but that's beside the point, because they Well, I've got away with that. The next project is that uh, it's almost hard to two I bet it's it's very hard to describe a lot of people in Hollywood and television and have had very great difficulty sort of even offer ending that aspect of the story in it. They decide that they're
She decides her. Parents aren't worthy, they don't care about her enough and she decides to move in with the Bernardo in this sort of paint, Cape COD Style House, in port delusi on the water and what they will. I, MIKE might actually, I even have lost track of what came first and what came second, but certainly one of the next things that happened in the. Period of time that there are planning their wedding uh what they were deeply engrossed in for a period of about four months. This this incident. This debt Tammy Lynn's murder happened in the in December, one thousand, nine hundred and ninety, and by end of
April, if I'm not mistaken, they were married in a port to the an old old church and whatnot, but in between Paul Bernardo abducted, a young teenage girl in Burlington Well, he was out looking for a license. Plate to the and brought her home. Her name was Leslie MOP. The fifteen year old school girl in normal school in Burlington on
and brought her back to this that they had in the news, the and over a about a three day period, both he and Carla, sexually assaulted, Leslie and then murder, and so that that that and they dismember her body in the basement, put her body. Parts are in it Katie, cement and cement and dump it at a reservoir bars at speeds that set at all, but it gives them and go off to their wedding at on the very day that they're being wed in a sort of horse white horse drawn carriage deal, which includes one hundred of there,
closest friends and family at a quite lavish sit down dinner at the queens landing, which, in Niagara on the lake is very lovely hotel, but many Americans are aware of, and during that very moment. The the body parts are discovered in late Gibson by a fisherman, because I'm Bernard had been responsible for making sure that that he they had bought to put the body parts in needed it. What was supposed to you know see feel they needed time to call S, and he didn't give it enough time. So, a couple of the lids that contain these body parts separate get it in the water of Lake Gibson an neither
some had done enough research into the lake Gibson and how it worked reservoirs. You raise it and go down. According to the usage some of these cement blocks in which the body parts were based were closed and they separated and the fishermen found them. And, of course, so the police came. And found these body parts of someone they they they weren't even sure, was missing in you know on the shores of Lake Gibson. So by the time, the police, get they figure out who the girl is, as, of course, there are a number of missing girls around the You know one hundred mile radius, they figure out its own asleep Mahaffey.
Bernardo and Homolka rowdy already gone on their honeymoon to Hawaii and come back so now we're at the stage where both of them thank that their uncatchable catch invincible, because nobody's talking about that nobody seems to know anything about what might have happened. The poor girl, but we will be at situation. This is behind everybody
and now they're just living in this lovely house, in port to Lucy at Abit. Coming back from their honeymoon. Very bizarre situation. Tell us about the abduction of Kristen, French and Carlos participation in in that. Well, we've used to spit. It should be mentioned the fact that there's been Jane DOE between that that objection. Yes, in there I mean we probably We should bring Jane DOE, and this.
Absolutely woman, known as the young woman known, is Jameed, Jane DOE, because this is an astounding sort of fact in the story that link shortly shortly after they return from their honeymoon uh. Actually, you know what I think. I think that Jane DOE factored in
before the Mojave was kid that I think I somehow remember that the narrow asserted that my hockey was reciprocal at this sort of reciprocal gifts for Jane Del, but regardless it's all in my book and very nice. I need the details at some point in this incredible insanity, Carlos's side that she needs to. Do something for Paul Something special football and she lures, a young girl that she met at at the veterinary clinic and the pet shop she used to work at uh. Also is fifteen and and strangely looks very much like Tammy Lynn, her sister dead sister.
She lowers her over to this house in order to Lucy one evening day and does to her exactly what she did to her sister, so that Paul could rate or sister with impunity, and that is she but more halothane from the veterinary clinic anesthetic, which She she well knew was very dangerous to use with the one who had eaten anything or drunk anything or at any other kind of or tranquilizers sore tranquilizes to she got exactly the same drug, an used exactly the same pills. It was cellophane and that you know temazepam or something that fills says a strong.
Saturday Anne she put Jane DOE down in their new house in Portugal, Uti and called her husband on the phone and said come home dear. I have a present for you And so they came home and the other thing that I haven't mentioned, is they videotaped all of this? A video tape at Tab, Lynn, and now he comes home and finds her with Jane, DOE, real friends, and two of the break, an and assault, Jane, Delan, videotape, the whole thing, and in this particular case- and I think three days, they're they're, going on the honeymoon you having it six months after that, it's less than six months.
The death of your enemy land and just a bit before Leslie Mahaffy is murdered and so Jane DOE doesn't die she's fine. The next day she feels sex, all day sponsors off and then they go get married and they go on their honeymoon. Two Hawaii come back. There's no cost twice is from anything that that you've done, and that is something it's not the type by all those restless curler goal posts and Rick roots window again. An a kind of relationship between the three of them develops that last a front through the summer.
Of one thousand nine hundred and ninety one. Yes, I think it's summer of ninety one where, by Paul and Karla, keep encouraging. Jane Delta have relationships with him, but he she won't go any further than giving her giving ball oral sex uh so eventually they both get very frustrated and they actually put her down again same way. They did the first time before you know be for their married before the honeymoon and this time Carla perceives that Jane DOE stops. Breathing Ann call calls nine hundred and eleven the way she
with Tammy Lynn, but then calls them right back and says: she's fine, so false alarm, no problem, and no one falls upon this Ann. You know and, and so that incident pass Jane, DOE walks away. Finally, from this bizarre as old and and survives, and one thousand nine hundred and ninety two
of them at the side that they need to find a new sex slave and they what to do about and kidnapped at school girl, think at in school, and I want Kristen French you get. Are we still on? Yes, we are well Kristen, Kristen French. He is Kristen. French is abducted by that the couple's and how do they what's different or similar with
what they have done, what they're doing with christian French uh? Well, a lot of water is gone under the bridge by this time it is April, one thousand nine hundred and ninety two Ann uh, there's there's there's the difference is that the collusion be thought of stuff has gone down between these two and tensions. Building an you know, things aren't perfect. I've got a beeping in my ears that you were. That is that here will just Continue. Steven contagious, keep doing it. Yes, but at this point she decides that it's imperative for her too
assist him and and him down because he's getting a bit the disassociated and they hatch a plot to kidnap of, and they go up out on the street very nice after noon and at Easter Weekend, and they go cruising looking for someone to get that yeah and they see peeks in french walking home from school.
You all heard back home from schools about five minutes and they pull off in a church parking lot and pretend that they're looking for directions, something that happens very very frequently in Saint cast because of the way in which the study has been designed and they offered a car and they kidnapped her right in broad daylight. Ann, take her basically five or six minutes back to their house, important, lousy and proceed to and then over the Easter weekend. One thousand nine hundred and ninety two now, let's fast forward a little bit because we're just Karla Homolka, gets the bright idea that the gig
is up what prompts her she is contacted by police. Let's get to that point was fast forward to that point where she is contacted and makes the smartest decision of her life. Let's tell us what prompts this questioning of Carla and what did the police say at that point, and what did she do in reaction to that interview that questioning right? The problem is store. This story is, it is more complicated, get famous roles, an and probably french is is killed. Things are done. She dumped it strangely, whatever
goalie very close in on a back road, Jerry, we're left. Lastly, Mafi has been the young, the young, the first act has been the second victim has been buried and that Christmas in nineteen ninety two, some how at the vet that Mister Bernard we do some like- and he hits Carlo with the one of the big black flashlight iron fly, Swat, all sorts as steel flashlight to such an expense that her mother and other people realize that she's. You know she's in stuff and kind of turkish and is the side that she
well we've Bernardo sold and she will go to her uncles place and live in Brampton. An everything will be forgotten and everything will be fine. At least that's. What's in her mind, she wasn't battered or there's no background of battery or or record of any kind of problems in their marriage up. This particular In nineteen. Ninety, two after branches dad and things have gone, uh haven't gone awry. Actually, nothing's happened to implicate any
hey. There none the wiser, but he dissemble she he's a problematic figure. He has no tolerance, obviously crazy, but not legally, so an he hits her one night and that's the end, their relationship, in other words, the first thing she thought she said is glee and she goes up, live with her aunt and uncle and bring up to. In the meantime, the metropolitan Trump lists the police, who have not been involved. The green ribbon task force that was formed,
under been this and has all the time Betty getting unsuccessfully and have twice interviewed, Paul Bernardo and cleared him, except that the Toronto police and the Scarborough Rape Investigation, the channel police and the forensic lab intro identify Bardo as the men who is raped free of the one thousand two hundred and fourteen victims. The card will rate this right, so they they have. The this is the definitive moment for the trial. Please they finally solved the case that got the guy and down to say Catherine's and what
under surveillance and decide, but they're going to be arrested in very short order. But of course you do that general for the problems that they had. We don't we the, The state is in the air in Canada at the state is the problem right. You know the feds it can't be. You know that that that the police Trop are like the police from New York part there. I decided that they're going to go into you know out of place a New Jersey z and they're going to take somebody out from under the New Jersey, police and arrest them and take them back to New York to prosecute well, that isn't gonna happen and is that the attorney general insists that the prosecution, the people in
all been those decisions. It says that they put in are now under surveillance that decide to do at this time. The walls in the meantime Carla has left down and got up to live in another small urban, suburban development with her aunt and uncle an hour and a half away from this place. So the the
draw, please are very, very eager just to a rap, never mind all of this nonsense, this political nonsense but jurisdiction, and what not but Bevan and the green ribbon task force the local people that are different charts with this, our system that they that this is their call our that they need to get him. So there there there's a huge hello. This is a political is involved here, that's that's impossible to talk about. The bottom line is, as the metropolitan Toronto police are being held up, they decide the part of their job would be to go and interview his estranged wife, which they did find her up in bright, and
in this suburb and they go up an interview. Her and Carla doesn't say anything to them about what actually has gone on. She doesn't confess, doesn't do anything. But what she does realize is that he could be in deep shit so that they come up to visit her and she talks to them and in the process of talking with them, realizes that whole You know, there's a problem here. These people of acts that they're actually on the old in these murders and that's good for her, because all she wanted to do was forget about all this stuff. At her mind, she just made a mistake. She married the wrong man so. Instead of coming clean with a run of lady, she beat shopping, drives and
the moment they leave. She phones, a lawyer in Niagara falls. It happens to be a very prominent lawyer perhaps the most senior lawyer in that area: who's who does nothing but criminal law. She knows this man, because his wife brings their dalmatians to the vet clinic where she worked. So she phones him and the wife organizes for her to come down and see his name. Is George Walker come down and be George, and she actually has the term entity to ask the detectives from Toronto.
That we're interviewing her to drive her to her appointment. George Walker Amazing, which they do cars greta. It's a story that is so Carl is it's so complicated. All of these kinds of stories seem to be involved now well. How else would throw speed in its six or how would the wired have gone for seven years? I mean it extremely.
Located in new ones, but at the root of it is the fact that policing at the bureaucracy- it's not an effective. You know force for security or deterrence, see that if you, if you get in the depths of called the and mark and on them the moment you start mixing tories in the tricks and police and, of course, the Ministry of the of the attorney generals of the prosecutor's office, whatever they're called the very strict six bins in the air. What do you bring both got? I said, and they have their own, they have their agendas. So. The bottom line is Carla. Goes down to this lawyer's office.
And from that moment in time and skill, the moment you walks into a courtroom to be given a twelve year sentence, not for sex crimes, not for murder, but for two counts of manslaughter. Nothing happens and what are arrested by the green ribbon task force and Vince Bevan and, of course, charge only with the murders of less than a hobby and christian French and that the basically that's with invisible dot. Dr rather this whole. It's a rat rather very few days. So true crime story that follows the all of the characters weather there perpetrators of it
kittens or the very many fasting bullet inhabit the expert witnesses program, the psychiatrists in the psychologist, the lawyers and the judges. The senior police, senior media, it's just of epic story of the disaster. One thing we didn't touch on when we talked about Carla Pact with the devil and it's interesting as well, because it's one of the most fascinating cases ever written about is. Perfect victim, and I interviewed it. I interviewed Carla Norton earlier this year about the incredible book, the true story of the girl in the box and the come compliant victim of a sexual. So please explain this, because this is the cornerstone for those are going to floor this book. It's a cornerstone to understand
a little bit about the perfect victim story and how much and how important that story and that that story is to this story: That's a very interesting point, because the compliant victim of sexual say this. Does it fiction that there's FBI profilers? Quantico manufactured out of whole cloth and the basic idea is that there are certain women who are susceptible to sexual status so far to such an extent that they marry them, and then
to do their bidding, and this is very much was very much a part of the clean negotiations or, if you will, the the government here, the prosecutors office and the government. Very much part of their explanation, rationalization for letting Carla literally away with murder and and Grotesque murder, not just I murdered my aunt because I was mad at all of these girls, with the exception of her sister, who is totally inexplicable, were strangers.
There's no solace or no explanation in the idea of you know the fact she was a battered woman and and and acting you know out of the battered woman syndrome. Therefore, couldn't leave him or anything the fact, Karla the moment she was hit first, the first time she was said she left the marriage, that's totally antithetical to the diagnosis of a woman with post, Matic, stress disorder or battered woman syndrome, but the the greatest fiction in all of this stuff Is that there's a certain kind of woman who is very susceptible to a sexual sadist and and the
The anomaly here is the compliant victim description, the compliant victim of a sexual say this and that's what they came, that with the government, Decided site was the best use of a theory. In the case of Karla Homolka, you see that it wasn't a question of what Vince Bevan. The head of the green ribbon task force wanted or much more powerful, an larger and confident metropolitan Toronto police wanted? It was a question of how the government was going to deal with the situation that was so high profile, what it was almost and so inexplicable that they could quite figure out
a resolution that was gonna, burn everybody and then somebody brought up this. All this I'd it was then of quite a new idea of the compliant victim of the sexual status. One of behave real science, the behavioral call it behavioral science, it's behavioral fiction that comes out Aquatica, but those couple of detect those that worked with the FBI. Hazelwood Douglas, who came up with I'm not sure if Douglas was already gone by that time, but named Roy Hazelwood, few others had come up with this theory, based on the interview as they conducted with you, ten or twelve cases that don't have any real relationship to the details of this case had come.
Fuck with theory which had just it hadn't been published. It was in uh I can't remember what the academic journals call it, but it was in review. Review and- and it was about to be published, The idea of the of the the complaint victim of sexual say this: this was like a a godsend to the to our government the events of and and the green ribbon task force, because it it it an explanation. Whereby they could excuse Karbala for stuff that was inexcusable Right they could rationalize inexcusable stuff how to show the to show the contrast in this trial is that now the government needs this deal, they need
these facts to align with their theory again is fictional theory you're talking about to explain that, because, obviously she doesn't fit into the post PTSD and she certainly doesn't fit into. Battered women syndrome by any by the definition by definition itself now, what's incredible about your book is that you have again the factually having Carla, testify and having and then having Bernardo testify is unusual and incredible. Now, in the as the prosecution Witness STAR witness against Bernardo, the defense of Paul Bernardo, wants to cross, examine, Karla Homolka to benefit call Bernardo regardless of the deal and so in a bizarre, almost twilight zone, type scenario where the government has their deal and she has me, but basically
from she supposed to tell the truth, and we won't get into all this memory. Convenient memory lapses that she has but tell us about what Rosen exposes and by that time, what everybody in this courtroom basically does know about Carla. Well Rosen Rosen is was Paul Bernard's lawyer and the fact is that. He didn't believe and no one believed there was any
meaningful resident at shouldn't. It happened at it at this trial or any meaning full revelation because, as at the prosecuting attorney said that dress to the jury, both these people are guilty of first degree, murder and I'm paraphrasing, but believe me, the transcripts bear me out. This is the in opening the art of trial work. Well, I had been dealt with she's already, Irving hurt twelve year. That means and for manslaughter for two counts of manslaughter, but it is a three because that would bankers serial offender so
She doesn't she's, not on street notes. Sasuke Apple said doing a twelve year bit, which would, in Canada, see her out if she really wanted to pursue it in as few as five years and she's now coming back to testify against her husband which is all part of a sort of DIS, Adian sharp. You know insane asylum play that the government is putting on for the public, because the the prosecutor says to the jury and to the gathered in the courtroom that please remember that missile mocha is not on trial. Here she is a witness for the prosecution. In fact, they are both guilty of first degree murder, but she is a process.
Quetion witness who has been given immunity so that had trial starts and then for the next four months about twenty one days of which, taken up with rose and cross, examining a woman who has nothing to fear from the results of the cross, examination yeah bringing out the most amazing, the scriptions revelations and stuff that you would ever hear in a courtroom anywhere in the world. Stunning admissions, but they have no wait. Don't meaning a thing that consequence, because she's already been dealt with so at the
and the at the end of this, and I mean really if people are that interest Then the dynamics of this. They really have to read the books which have the most comprehensive complicated, but I think, bull descriptions of everything that goes on and everything that said, but at the end of the trial as the trial is clothing in the summer of nineteen. Ninety five Oj Simpson trial still on the Bernard Trails concluding on Labor Day weekend. Nineteen ninety five, the prosecutor, the chief prosecutor, says to the jury. End of the courthouse that does
matter. What Karla Holmes said? It's is open to the to the conviction of Paul Bernardo, nothing. She is said matters We don't care because it's not relevant to the conviction of Paul Bernard in law, he's correct and in fact that's why, what happen Bernardo was convicted Carla went back to jail and now it's the tenth today this year today, this year is ten anniversary of her released from prison, absolutely free and clear. Yes, you know
What do you say? You see it happening, yeah go ahead! Sorry, sorry, let's talk about because we really haven't talked about this. Specifically you had these one hundred over one hundred crim charges, accusations of looking at releasing sensitive court documents, information that was not allowed breaking the publication bands. I don't want to get you to defend yourself, but what did you see? I mean the court listened to the tapes but didn't see the video tapes. What did you see what was so dangerous on what you saw or what you did or what you release. Tell us about that yeah, nothing ice are released, was very dangerous still at let's let I mean the idea that that I thought
or released, or did anything that was dangerous or against the public. Good is is absurd, but you know all the people are very gullible. All you have to do is be accused. Sure I was touched things an and your neighbors Izmir guilty Does Sabri Valley, Smith Doorstep, let alone swarm their house and arrest you at gunpoint with ten swat team people, so but if you're good at that, the any government in a democratic society would behave that way over alleged publication, ban breaches or or court order breaches is insane. It doesn't happen in my case what what date, let,
Which was I had seen when that matter came up in in one of my trials, one of my two trials, the press, the repair to the fact that the cradle like a hundred and sixty two people who had actually seen these rude, restricted, video tapes and in it. If the crown admits that sorry, if the prosecuting office met admits that the attorney general, Whatever I'm looking for a common word that you know common, do England, United States here if the chief prosecutor admits that How many people actually must have seen them? If one hundred and sixty two people have seen tapes that
allegedly restricted how many possible this, probably five hundred, have seen them now. The point is, I actually didn't see these particular tape. Because they were, there is only about an hour and fifteen minutes of them and they very specific to a certain part of that videotape associated with this trial. So again, the government in this case and the police spent hundreds of billions to 10s of millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of man hours trying to you know, create a subterfuge
around what they were doing. It was almost a bit per truly unconscionable and I was just another subterfuge. Just send the distraction, the point being you know it: can you you're almost ten years of prosecution being arrested twice and put on trial for it? You know year two three years at the time: millions and millions of dollars spent on prosecuting date on their two hundred over a hundred yards of teaching, publication and and and and court orders, I ended up pleading guilty to one count of misdemeanor, which was like. Let me do what I: what state? Only not the books And only because they had had broken mean potentially I mean I would have
fighting, but I didn't have any money left I didn't have. Any property left, I didn't have anything left. You know I was in debt half a million dollars so when the government came on and said well, never mind all these one hundred chart one hundred criminal charge never buying this lawsuit it is an enemy of the state, just take a plea to one this misdemeanor hello band preach to do with your website openly well website directly at that point didn't exist and had never existed. It was that it was up on it it inaccessible server because we were looking at how to do maybe have do this by, they came to us and said a complete, a one, Miss dinner and an because only because
I not only had no money left. I was a half a million dollars to the said. I ultimately said: okay, Ok, we gotta do that. My lawyer, my lawyers advised Maine my lawyer, Edward great quickness, practice law in North America, Clarence Darrow. He's said: F Lee Bailey, he's of that ilk keep. You, but you know what, let's think about it. You want to spend the rest of your life doing this, or do you want to just take a small insignificant hit? it's not not even the equivalent of a laugh and they're. You know traffic violation like a legal letter, sure penalty at to do with my you know:
you gotta, you gotta, look at a situation like this and say to yourself how, in God's name, does do these books keep setting all these years? How come that doggie ever pursued the bastard for libel or misrepresentation or slander, or anything cover the entire government of his country, came against him on criminal charges to do with. You know what we have coming in the issues we urged. So you know it doesn't make any sense, and It didn't make any sense, but they do what they do, because that's what they do- and you know what they did to me- was only
a minor glitch compared to them arrest had not against a perpetrated with the case of Paul Bear on Carvel Alka. Let me ask this question and maybe you've been asked this before, but you really think this is about you. Had this incredible access to doctor aren't. He gave you a couple satchels of everything, access to everything which I thought was incredible, and also very unusual where you had the diaries you had. The information from the psychiatric tests. You had all of that information that he gave you we didn't have to give it to the respected juice gave it to you right no one that Emily, but he also provided all kinds of other, central material, but that that that that almost was never be
gotten in terms of the backgrounds of his patient that how you know all of her school record all for medical records, everything to do with her right, very usual. Now, with that information and all the other axis that you had and your persistence in this and again, we have books to books over six hundred pages. So it's crammed with information. Is this really bottom line? Are they mad because you told the truth are they are you? Are they mad that you expose this most? That's the beyond controversy. All this travesty of justice of the and all the all the subsequent dealings and all the expo
Winds are they essentially mad about this? I don't think they're bad anymore, because they're all either dead or retired, but I mean at the time I mean the people. People don't think about these things said that the passage of time I miss in inexorable and it's you know very strange at the time uhm I think it was there a cup very powerful man, who I had offended one way or the other, and there were. Their agenda is at work the very it's very rare friends that that families of victims have rapacious legal representation? That really is legal but more.
Public relations like this to Bobby family had with a guy named TIM Dancing, EV time. This case got into the press. Money would flow into dance in the office for for for what was it all that I think towards the end and the integrity fun for the French? It should. Haha family and nothing ever. I mean it's a sad, sad thing to say, but the person who took the most advantage of those people so those most vantage. In a word not more advantage in the people who killed their daughter, but afterwards the person and people who took the most advantage of that
are are the lawyer that represented them and the the the big government use them as somehow. This is a list of it. So fast yeah hide behind the easiest issues like the and and in this case, the skirts of the the mothers of dead girls. If such as it's so, it's easy to go there and do and in it at the time. I think that all these forces were in play and I was just a big target and you know made list. I look. This is a perfect. I make mistakes, I in a sense I uh number of occasions. I was just large sitting target.
And they were there, they took advantage of it, it it, but it it. I don't think it's issues of freedom of speech. I think that the issue is the cost, may be the day of curtain. You shouldn't, had to do with personalities and individual. It wasn't business. It was personal. If you know what I mean right, I think it's search individuals saw opportunities or had taken umbrage was something up or whatever hi. I can't see it, it's impossible, the in larger societal terms, because they're, not there. I mean they just that, so it has to be personal and and You know the case case. One of the scene of the senior flu is involved in the
but that still making to do with Karla Homolka, was ended up as the assistant deputy minister, with the attorney general uh, I happened mention in my summary and an invisible darkness that he had been having an affair with his is. Second, her he was managing the hallmark of business down in Niagara falls and that he left left is life is three children and married her, and that is
it's only in the back end of the book is where you suddenly arise: a traditional crime where all the players, what what became of all the players. In the case, if you read a good book good good crime book, you've got a lot of very prominent players and characters and you've developed the and, in the end, a proper you used to summarize what's become of you know and they left and they died. What new job of the taken? What. Happened to them, etc, etc. Well, in this case, uh Mister Siegel happened to be the man who was responsible ordering rating police investigations At the very moment that, in other words, he hadn't left, the Ministry of the attorney general
Or the office of the attorney general at the very moment that the first arrest issue called for by TIM, dance and the the lawyer for the families of the Mafia French is it was dancing that call for me to be arrested and investigate and eagle was sitting at in the bird seat where he had the power to work in, I suspect the a man would have ignored it.
So I know only last year. I know with I know when we last spoke, I provide again. I I think the root of the problem is and again I will. We will go back into it, but you said you know the lawyers just doing their jobs of that's their job and but it's clearly, ten Danson has taken his job and his responsibility to you know irresponsible levels and unconscionable levels. I was always disgusted by his behavior and I'm even more disgusted by what you had said that I didn't know about him dance and it is interfering in trying to get you arrested. I know we try to ruin your journalistic career. I mean that was obvious by the press. Conferences did did on behalf of the the families and it is a responsible, but what I want to say to is that he wasn't just doing his job. There's people in this
story that weren't just doing their job. Well, I don't think that the the phrase- I don't think the explanation that I was just doing my job is a justification for anything. I think not weed anybody who has read anything about a germ history and world war two? What easily accept? The idea that just doing the job was a viable excuse, but as an option, I I'm at the synthetic that and you're right to call it out, I mean I, I used a euphemism. As far as I know, I can't at least when I was paying attention to this attempt at never actually what it in
Court when he was representing the family, every motion that he brought in front court was turned it back when he went to the Supreme Court for leave to appeal the Supreme Court of Appeals, something that a lower court said it's on appealable, it's not a matter for the courts, it's a matter for parliament, it's better for lobbyists. If you want the law was changed well and stop wasting your client's money and and lobby the government when he ignored that advice and what of the pizza preempt. An allegedly I mean he says in public, please it was in the newspapers stuff like that, it that it require Eight hundred million dollars for him to Mount is Supreme Court challenge when he Mount,
and that challenge the Supreme Court wouldn't even Kira. They would listen to his argument. They said it's not for court, but he understands how Supreme Courts worked as a pretty damn good thing. If you go to bring they try to bring somebody with spring court and they won't even let you argue in front of them why they should listen to what sure staking categorically. We don't want to hear anything from you about that. You know no well, I mean, but people. You know people will fall this stuff at all. There aren't many people of Falls Supreme Court rulings or pay much attention to what lawyer preserved away or who's doing what to whom and in the yeah a lot people get hurt badly by it one way or the other, because actually
It's one of those areas in life. You should pay a little more attention do than most people do you're. Absolutely right. I mean I I miss guilty is the next man of using that you friends and they were just doing their jobs? I always say it tongue in cheek, but that's not always evident to somebody listening right. With this is as well, I think it's a commentary and that, at least this is what I have seen in in these few years- that I've been covering mostly american, true crime, writers. It is I think a truly unique situation. The true crime book phenomena
As a genre in America, when you look in comparison to Australia, has a strong, true crime, market and fascinatingly bizarre crimes, and so does England. But Canada seems to not have that market. Or at least what I I see and I'm going to get you to weigh in is that, based on a bunch of factors, the reluctance from the newspapers to sort of play up, but rather play down some of these things. These cases important case the picked in case of an art omealca other important murder trials. Do you really do you see a difference that I see in the Publix acceptance of these cases and their interest in following those cases, in learning about those cases and being.
Up on those cases, you see a difference, a vast difference or any difference at all between the seemingly the two societies in a response to serious incredible crime, like the evidence by Paul Bernardo and Carla Mocha,. That's a very interesting question in a complex question and- and you know superficially, you could say that Americans seem.
Really overwhelming superficially, pure in interest. In other words, they love to consume all sorts of to crop and are almost the way they consume copy or in other words, what it that they, they don't absorb it in any meaningful way, but it probably has a defect on their their their yeah. Their heart beat there's just the caffeine, except maybe it is time to get it and sticking to what did that hi? That, and A thing bad ever happens, or a good or or organized to make it look like law and order prevails right hand and there, and so therefore, the the
presentation nor the way it involves this difference. But the strange thing is, I think, some of the strangest crimes committed on the planet have been committed by. If I I mean, I don't know why this is someone using to me but been committed by. Can I I don't know of a character like Olsen and what He did an an how the authorities dealt with him. I eat buying out tell them where, where is victims worked, he give they give one thousand dollars each for each victim to his wife and child. I mean
how Canadian is that and besides that all soon not only was a peculiar criminal, but he's also up to kill your and your work, all yeah. It may. There has been no other crime, don't believe there has been a crime like the Bernardo Homolka crime in history. No, certainly not, since they did it. There is a key In England that was almost a quick instant in time. So there's Fred and rose W case. But it is so bizarre and so out there that it's if it's not compareable pressed. If you look at the class structure and
yeah a number of other issues, age class faction. I mean it there's really no relation to that. And as far as I can tell that. The rose in West, the rose the West case, the more spinners cases, cases that had have any similarity to the Bernardo case and nothing like it has happened since it's so ultra. It's so bizarre and Canadians also stupid, produced the most despicable,
disgusting crime state that Magnotta Guy and Montreal, who, who cut up a perfectly innocent chinese students in his body parts to the conservative and liberal office, is what the fuck, You know what I haven't seen anything like that out of the United States I just see what I'm saying you know. Anyway. Go head sorry little soaring. No! No. What I was going to say is that I I totally agree with you. In fact, what I had said and stated publicly is that if you look at of the case of a photographer in Edmonton, is Lord somebody on plenty of fish and then came up with the serial killer sort of check book that he was
that out a script that he is. It was going by to lure somebody in a alike as he as he was a woman and then murder in videotape, and then the case I was involved with his city, use every graphic, Corey disgusting detail. He wanted the world to know and right. The the murder spectacle that he laid out for authorities with Susan Sarandon's Julie nearby in it seem like, after that case, make Nada was influenced by Colonel Williams and yes, Paul Bernardo and picked in, but wanted to do in one murder, everyone else. By being over the top, my video taping cannibalizing this Eiling this body sending it to government agencies. Of course, there's nothing like that in America or the world, because I think Canadians are competing with Americans very much like we would, in entertainment, comedians artist,
hello, this, it looks like there's certain argument to be made on its face. For, for that sort of thing it it strikes Maine. It's always struck me as very odd how extreme you know certain some how extreme certain cases are in Canada occurred to International. I mean it's just a matter of degree. There there's it's all most impossible to address the, for instance, race rooted crime, that's going on and the gun would crime that's going on in the United States. Today I mean I used to say when people would become. You know there was so much emotion at the time. I was writing about
the card a home, all that even yeah for Mark that even a question like that, and even when she was writing Alias grace. Why doesn't he just stop this since they're prosecuting him to this extent? Why doesn't he you know just not do this. Yeah Canadians. Don't Canadians don't have don't want to. Seem to have any perspective on anything except a light literature and it uses uh. But all you know I haven't got any it, as my one of the men. I deeply admire and I have no one over the years uh off another cone said I don't have a secret chart. Take me to the heart of this or any other matter. I'm just uh, uh, honestly, all way.
Is just been a guy trying to write a good book and right at right about something, meaningful and look into, but the place um. The trouble is when you go trying to do that. You find yourself stuck over the abyss, as I had done so absolutely yeah and then strictly involved in something that again, by definition, never leaves you it's stays with. You and very much Lee wrote these books many years ago. They never seem to go away. I've got interviewed a lot of authors that seem to can't remember their books, but I'm pretty sure you won't forget this one. So No this case it also but that anyways, I want to talk to you again.
One more thing I want to thank you. I want to thank you very much Steven for coming on and talking about invisible darkness and your involvement in this, credible case, and we just touched on it. I'm sure readers will be motivated to gold these books and read the ready to use it. Please to do it. Did you know after you know, once your your rise to be happy to talk to gather more stuff. Absolutely this is this story is on so many levels demonstrates so much about killers themselves. The motivation and not only we have a spectacular, are
killer in Paul Bernardo. But then we have a spectacular killer couple with Karla Homolka, an incredible that she's roaming around free and easy in Montreal with a couple children in a happily married. Yes, so this is the story that demonstrates so much about killers, but also demonstrates so much about the motivations of jurisdictions and police and government agencies and and everybody with their needs and again opens up in an incredible door, for you know incredible discussion about so many different things in one book in two books covering so much history and that it's horrifying and true regardless, is very essential and important history. I want to thank you very much Steven for coming on and talking about your incredible book. Invisible darkness. I think Dan thanks for having me
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Transcript generated on 2019-11-05.