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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night Stalker Dck every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening and investigation into the man's Scotland Yard thought but couldn't prove was jack. The ripper dozens of theories of attempted to resolve

history of the identity of Jack, the ripper, the world's most famous serial killer river Allah, Robert House, contends that we may have known the answer all along the head of Scotland Yard's Criminal Investigation Department at the time of the murders, thought Aaron Kosminsky was guilty, but he lacked the legal proof to convict him MIKE's point because Minsky's life House built a strong, so circumstantial case against him, showing not only that he had means motive and opportunity, but also that he fit the general profile of a serial killer, as defined by the FBI today the first book to explore the life of Aaron Kosminski, one of Scotland Yard's top suspects in the quest to identify Jack. The ripper combines historical research and contemporary criminal profiling techniques to solve one of the most vexing criminal mysteries of all time. The book draws on a deck.

Eight of research by the author, including trips to Poland and England, to uncover because past and details of the case includes a four word by Roy Hazelwood, a former FBI profiler and a pioneer of profiling. Sexual predators features dozens of photographs and illustrations, building a thorough and convince in case that completes the work begun by Scotland Yard more than a say. Three ago, this book, essential reading for anyone who wants to know who really committed to Jack the Ripper's heinous and on forgettable crimes. The book it we're featuring this evening is Jack. The ripper in the case for Scotland Yard's prime suspect, with my special guest ripper Allah, just journalist and author Robert House, welcome to the program and thank you for

in this interview, Robert House, thanks Dan thanks for having me on the show. I've been a fan for awhile, so happy to be on. Thank you very much great book. This did not come out this year, so maybe you can tell us what year that came out, but let's talk about how you came to this story? Your background, I mention your refer. Ology refer all ages, so tell us the amount of time that you dedicated to this studying this case and before we talk about what you did in the pursuit of the main suspect in how You came to find out all that information and make that determination. So, to give us a little bit of background on yourself and as a ripper always and tell us, then about how you came to endeavor, to write this incredible book and do the research necessary to

Do this sure, so I may you know I'm a graphic designer by trade, so everything I've done in the area of researching jacked, there has been done in my spare time. You know kind of as a hobby I initially got interested in it around the year, two thousand and you at the time. I was honestly just reading a bunch of history books, not specifically true crime. You know, just history books in general, and I just in a somewhat randomly pick.

Up a book on Jack, the ripper by Philip Sugden, and it's called the complete history of Jack, the Ripper. I believe- and it's you know it's a really great book, and you know I just got sucked into the mystery of the case like so many other ripper allergists have done, but there was you know there is this. One particular suspect that I became interested in, and this is Erin Kosminsky is a suspect. I wrote my book about. You know Sugden effectively, dismissed him as a viable, a suspect in the jack, the ripper case, and the more that I thought about this, the You know the the more problems I started to see an in his argument. I guess I would say you know the more I thought about hearing because Minsky he just seemed She like he was a very good fit for Jack the Ripper. I'm

start doing. You know just a little bit of research in my spare time, mostly he pretty much all online reading a lot of other books on serial killers- and you know the real, so the real break in my own research came when basically, I discovered, Aaron Kosminski's geneological genealogical records in Poland. You know: Aaron Kosminski has been known as a suspect in the case, since one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven when he was discovered by Martin Fido but very little is known about him. Very little is still known about him, in fact, but you know at the time it was known that he came from Poland, but you know Nothing was really known about his family or know where he was from. So I I did. The search

is geological records in Poland, and it was you. I just submitted a search request at that time. I did not travel to Poland, so I submitted a search request in the polish archives. You know to do so. I had to have a pretty good idea of where in Poland he was from the component is divided into go and the their archives are not centrally. You know digitized or anything like that. So I had to you know, submit this request. Have it translated into polish, and you know I found these records and then from there we got. You know the names of all his siblings, the names of his parents, and that led to subsequent discoveries in England, because we're then able to search for records with wings. For example,

You know that led to a bunch of other things and so you know I was doing this research in my spare time for five or six years and I disco but a lot of information about Aaron Kosminski that had not been previously known. So I decided to write a book and the book I'm out in two eleven. That's basically in a nutshell now, Want to ask you, you mention Martin feed so, let's talk about who he is and again we just lost over what happened in nineteen eighty, seven, that was a new development for refer all ages and tell us how we're in Kosminsky name came up in nineteen eighty seven as a result yep, so I'm gonna jump back a little bit to nineteen ten, the main reason that and because Minsky such a such a prime, so

checked in the case is because in one thousand nine hundred and ten Robert Anderson, who is the head of the criminal Investigative Investigation Department at Scotland, yard, wrote a autobiography in which he stated that contrary to popular belief. The police actually knew the identity of Jack the ripper, but in the book he he did not name the suspect. He said out of you, concerns for being sued for Bible and you know really because he said the reputation of his department would suffer because the police don't tell tales out of school. There are various other reasons why he wouldn't name a suspect in a case like this,

but he never named the suspect and in in the 80s, the grandson of the person who is actually the head of the jack. The ripper investigation at Scotland Yard, who worked under Anderson was a man named Donald Donald Swanson, and his grandson discovered that Swanson had owned a copy of this book and in the book where Anderson declined to name. The suspect. Swanson actually wrote the suspects name in the margin in pencil and you wrote Kozminski, but he only gave the last name so Martin Fido in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven Martin fighters a well known, ripper ologist, and he decided to try to discover.

A person named Kozminski in the asylum records, because Anderson stated that Kozminski, you know, wasn't saying and ended up in an insane asylum. So Martin Fido did a search. Through the asylum records and he only discovered one kozminski and that Erin Kosminsky, you know, ironically Fido dismissed Kosminsky is a viable suspect, almost immediately, which I've always found to be incredibly odd, because you would think that the person who discovered him him would want to you know sort of take the credit for solving the case once and for all, but that one right that wasn't what happened and Martin Fido came up with a sort of an alternate theory. I won't go into the details, but that's how we are cousins. Keys name came to be known, so he's his name's really been known since the eighties. What was the

reasoning for Fido dismissing Kosminsky after he had discovered Kosminsky. What was his rationale hi, so his rationale and most people- you know the common reason that Aaron Kosminski is dismissed is because people say a. He was an m so he's commonly described as being an imbecile, because well it's really because he he was you see he was initially entered into calmly hatch county asylum and then he was transferred to a place called we used in asylum for imbeciles that that was reason. One reason to is that there's a there's, a document written by the police, surgeon who certified and

because Minsky is insane, I'm sorry his his admission record to call me hatch states that he's not violent, because there was an entry on the form that said you know is, is this person violent and he wrote now. So those are the two main reasons. Really why he's dissing? open, WI fighter to dismissed him, but there are other aspects of his asylum records that also led them to dismiss him as well. For example, the person who certified him is insane wrote down, am the reasons that he goes about in the gutter and eats food out of the gutter. You know things like that. He was also his asylum record, also states that he was a compulsive masturbator that was given as the reason for insanity

act. So you know all these things add up to you know sort of paint a picture. It was very different from the way most people picture Jack, the ripper when they think of him. You know he thought of as being this conning a sort of super villain, and here you have Aaron Kosminski, who say: injector uppers also commonly thought of as being in a sort of an upper class person, at least that's how he's portrayed in like the Johnny Depp Film. You know he's portrayed as an aristocrat or sometimes it's a doctor. So here you have Erin Kosminsky, who is unemployed, lower class immigrant? Who is insane you know, going about in the streets, picking up food out of the gutter and said to be both an imbecile and not danger.

So you know the more? I actually looked into some of the things. I realized that you know a lot of these arguments are actually quite weak because for one thing he was not an imbecile, The term was, actually you know strictly define Legal and medical term in the 19th century, which meant the equivalent of what we would now call Klay retarded person right, but the fat. The fact is that the in the soul asylum's took in both people who were legally defined in imbeciles, and also people who are legally defined as lunatics The main reason a person would end up in a so called in the soul, asylum. What, if.

He was deemed to be untreatable, so you know Erin Kosminsky almost certainly had gets a friend yeah, you know so the doctors it's time would have determined that he was untreatable and heat and hence he was transferred to leavesden, you know the part about not being violent is also somewhat contradicted by his his asylum records, in which it states that he was at times violent. He actually threatened to attack one of the asylum attendance at one point, and it's also documented in his record that he attacked his own. He threatened to attack his own sister with a knife. Right, but you know when he would be a win, these forms are being filled out. You know they're they're, asking probably his brother, who was the person who brought him to the work, has to to be

by a doctor. You know they would've asked his brother, you know, is he violent new brother said now? You simply fill that in the form. You know, which is a perfectly normal response, and you know you can picture the same thing could have been said if TED Bundy or Gary Ridgeway they were, you know, being entered into you know it's entered into some form. You know somebody who knew Bundy would have said he's not violent scene of these. These objections to Erin, because if you start to sort fall apart and the more you look at him. He actually fits the you know what you would, what you would think Jack. The ripper was actually like

and and once those objections are gone, then you see that the case against him is actually quite strong, although very little is still known about him as a person. To be honest, you did extensive research like no one else has, as you mentioned, about Erin Kosminsky, it's himself and his family background as much you could find, and so there's some extrapolation or inferences, but basically incredible amount of information before we get to that? What I found was interesting is the again we we really do a great job. I vividly describing Poland and Europe before we get to Britain and then describing Britain, but I'd never heard. You know this other background for Kosminsky. What was interesting before we get to that is to explain how important they thought masturbation was to insanity at that time, just to sort of gives the listener some idea of

the mind set at that time. You know to to really understand what was going on. You have to understand that insanity was very poorly understood. You know it was starting to be understood a little bit better towards the end of the 19th century, which is a period we're talking about, but you there's very little treatment for There is very little understanding of schizophrenia which, the time was referred to. As you know, something else could have been to his dementia Praecox or You know mania something like that, but you know so. You know, in the victorian error master it was commonly thought to cause not just insanity, but you know all sorts of physical ailments

now we look upon, as you know, being rather silly, but you know that that is and entered in his record as being the cause of insanity. You know. One thing I pointed out in my book is that you know the the FBI's behavioral Study studies unit, this group of kind of sir real killer experts that includes John Douglas Roy Hazelwood know. They conducted extensive interviews with serial killers, in the nineteen eighties to no story sort of start to have some kind of you know do data based understanding of serial killers. We can look at them. You know kind of in a statistical manner.

And yes they're, looking at common traits of serial killers, and I believe they argued thirty seven known serial killers and one of the you know highest one of the most common traits. I think it was you know he, eighty percent or something was compulsive masturbation. Yes, although people kind of joke about this, you know when they're you know, sort of making fun of Erin Kosminsky is a suspect. He was actually a project. You know not a predictor, but it's a you know it's very common trait among serial killers. Let's talk about and also what I want to mention to the to do. You did you found as well to disprove the imbecile argument or dismiss the this in this argument, because for all official records he was considered not in a missile but an actual lunatic, and you found that information is a big distinction, so

You you want to go into that a little bit more one. I mean all of it. If you like sure yeah I mean you know to I. I really read quite a bit about the history of you know both insanity and lunatic asylums in England, specifically, you know and like I said, there was really very little treatment for people who are insane in the 19th century and for the most part, who ended up in in insane asylums were mostly managed really. You know there was not much of a sense of treating them because they did it. They didn't have any sense of what they could do. So you know it was a lot of sort of restraint.

Towards the end of the 19th century. They started using chemical restraint, but the you know the search taxonomy for taxonomy. For how People were categorized was quite primitive and you there was. You know, like I said, legally speaking, three broad categories for insanity, one was a lunatic another one was imbecile and the third one was person of unsound mind which it's actually quite unclear what that really meant. I looked into and I I read one person who did A did: a pretty extensive study of asylum records and he couldn't really to tell if there is any you know determining factor between lunatic in person. Once on my

but you know it. It shows it shows here to extent the brutality with which these people were treated, that no people who were mentally retarded effectively were just lumped together with insane people. And they were also you know kind of put put in these places and you know treated really quite badly. So for me to understand what, in in the soul, asylum was yeah, I'd, be looking quite a bit into the history of islands in England. You know the fact was that the the asylums were overcrowded and you know the doctors towards the end of the nineteenth century. They did start to think that thank more about ways of treating people who are insane, but for the cases that they determine.

The untreatable, they would just sort of shuffle the person off to a way in my book, I call sort of an overflow container. You know just get them out of here and send them off to that other place where they're just can be basically managed, and so the imbecile asylums really were. You know they host both imbeciles and lunatics, and they were kind of designed to have only people who were. Non violent as well people who are considered harmless, but then you know that that distinction also fell away in the to start. Taking anybody really there's, there's massive overcrowding in these places. You do an incredible job of talking about the atmosphere in the environment. At the time in Poland, it did likely shaped more did shape,

I Erin because Minsky's future about a mindset, and so you would you have as Poland at in the late eighteenth century and you talk about how we can pull in had been because of of Russia and Prussia and Austria, and so tell us about, as you do start in seventeen. Seventy two and talk about the atmosphere and environment and the sentiment so tell us about that, Samuel, I won't go too much into the history of it. To be honest, I'm not. I wouldn't consider myself to be an expert in new. Free opponent in the 18th century, but you know was a very weak country at the time and the three bordering countries, Russia Prussia and Austria effectively had a treaty. That was designed to

in a week in Poland and you know. Ultimately, the country was basically liquidated and you know the broken up and divided between those three countries. So you know in doing so, Russia took over what had been in a large part of Eastern Poland and You know at at the same time they know that meant a lot of jewish, in Poland were sort absorbed into the russian empire, and you know throughout the 19th century You know at at that time Russia was very toxic and anti semitic atmosphere forge Choose who are really treated as

second class citizens with limited right, they were sort of confine. You know geographic area called the the pale of settlement and within that yeah they were restricted to only work in certain trade. Travel was restricted and you there were. There were all shortest legal. Cool means of. I guess you know, keeping them and oppressed sort of underclass in the country you know. At the same time there was you know, Anti Semitism that extended. You know right from the top. You know people, you know those are, and people like that down to you know that has a so. It was a horrible atmosphere for the Jews and no

write about in my book in the in the middle and late 19th century, there were periodic outbreaks of Paul. In in western Russia against the Jews, the particular one. Led to the emigration of the Kozminski family was after the destination of bizarre in eighteen. Eighty one you he was assassinated by a group of I don't know. If I want to call them anarchists, they were actually people who are trying to establish a sort of a democratic republic in Russia by over thrones are well. He was assassinated anyway in the street, by assassins who came out and threw bombs at him. And you know, the Jews were scapegoated by several newspapers, although they had nothing to do with it

really, and this led to the outbreak of you massive riots across you know a large area of western Russia, again the Jews and there were, you, know, extremely violent. It's it's hard to really imagine the scenario, but you know the depictions that I've newspapers. Are you know really horiffic people being killed? You know tossed into houses being burned down and bodies being tossed into the burning flames and babies being thrown out of windows, and I mean just horrific descriptions, and so this led to a massive wave of jewish refugees fleeing Russia and going West a lot of them ended up going to America and uh but ended up going to London.

You know where this is where the Kozminski's went. So you know Aaron Kosminski went emigrated to London with his with brother and sister his early. His older brother, had already gone there about ten years earlier and you know so they read about in the book. The the sentiment towards Jews in the east end got quite, Anti semitic and violet as well, because they were, you, know, kind of resented's. You know immigrants competing for jobs. There is I unemployment in London it's time, so no hey is throughout the decade at the cosmetic use arrives in about eighteen.

Eighty one, the jack, the ripper murders were in eighteen. Eighty eight and you know, between in those two periods, the anti Images really is on the rise and it was really a breaking point just just at the time the ripper murders began. So you know, like a like, I said very little is known about because Minsky, no but the quality of his family life- and you know things like that. But you know this is the general environment. The experience you know so you have to consider when, when, when the family emigrated to to London, he would have been sixteen years old, and you know just experiencing that level of anti Semitism and hatred and being so

added by violence. You know I sort of speculating. The book is the type of environment that can you lead a person to develop the the the level of hatred that you know serial killers do with that. Do you you talk about what Erin Kosminsky could have witnessed in that you said it was. There were frequent rapes from the Russians against do so he had sisters that were in their 20s and a mother, so he could have. You said could have experienced that kind of violence, even types of his own sisters or mother, or at least known of rapes or witness other violence sexual assaults and all kinds of other violence before he left and then, like you say, then it gets back to London and it's the same kind of at

the medics again hatred and violence. Again, you talk about the profiling and you get in this book and you you talk about the geographical profiling as well. So talk a little bit more about the the profiling of what you learn from the pros. File in terms of comparing it to the information that you did have about Kaminski's at least environment and the extrapolation of likely how he did grow up yeah I mean you know so some of this comes from the the.

Yeah the the study that asked the idea that I referred to earlier, where they sort of list common characteristics of serial killers in those include things like unemployment, you know and because Missy was unemployed, includes instability of residents, which means you know a lot of moving, and you know the speculated that that you know keeps a person from developing attachments to people in Kozminski. Obviously you know immigrated. He was a refugee coming to a strange place where he didn't speak the language. Now lack of a father figure is often cited. Aaron Kosminski's father died when he was nine years old, it's unknown. How

You know, but he was really raised in a family that would have been, as I say, in the book dominated by females, his older sisters and his mother, the only other male in the house, with his brother, who was a few years older, but the the older brother had left in the 1870s then there's a said before compulsive masturbation. You know so things like that cousin is key. You know match is all these characteristics is also you know, just as I said before, you know the sort of toxic and hateful atmosphere generally that he new was raised in

you something that I researched more after the book was published, actually was specifically about the the type of serial killer that Jack the Ripper, was. You know the FBI refers to this type. Killer is a post mortem mutilator, because his prime interest really was mutilating bodies after death. So you know, unlike TED Bundy, you know. Bundy would would be considered a sadistic serial killer because he drive plus from sort of torturing his victims. You know x, jack. The ripper is not this type of killer. You know he actually killed his victims quite quickly.

But then you know performed extensive mutilations, probably cannibalism, and he had this type of killer is often you know insane by which I In schizophrenic, not always, but if you look at schizophrenic serial killers and they're quite rare, they often commit things that were quite similar to Jack the ripper I see they're quite rare, because some of the people who are considered generally to be schizophrenic. Serial killers may well have been faking it I'm thinking of Berkowitz, possibly Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper. But if you look at people who are clearly

Schizophrenic serial killers, people like Richard Chase Herbert Mullin. You know their crimes were quite disorganized and often involves mutilation of the bodies after death, cannibalism, and things like that. So you know just in you kind of across the board, because Minsky fits with, I think the type of killer you would be looking for. Generally, how did Sir Robert Anderson and Donald Swanson come to their conclusions with with their assessment ski? Yes, so

see, the police would have known quite a bit more about Aaron Kosminski than we know today, because they almost certainly interviewed him question to him Probably they must have interviewed his family members and there would have been some kind of suspect file on him. That's now been lost, so what has survived is just these little snippets of documents that mention him. The the short answer to you question. Is it's not really known why Anderson came to the conclusion that Aaron Kosminski was Jack the ripper, but he seemed quite definite about it. The way he puts it in in several different interviews is. He said it was a moral certainty which is

actually a legal term that kind of means in a not show it means we couldn't prove it legally, but he was convinced anyway that Erin, because Mackey was Jack tripper. You know that said the surviving documentation on him comes from. You know, Anderson Spa look, the Swanson Swanson's writings in the margin of the book, which is referred to as Swanson Marginalia. You know, fills in some of the gaps and then there's a document called. The Mick memorandum, which was written by a another detective at Scotland Yard sort of summarizing some of the top suspects in the case in in that he says that Kozminski had a great

should of women specially prostitutes, and you know he had homicidal tendencies, but probably the most important. Thing that's known anyway, is that Aaron Kosminski was actually identified by a witness Anderson writes about this, but Very little is known about it. You know it's not real a known who the witness was, although most people think it's a person named Joseph Lau and Orla vendor. I'm not exactly. How to pronounce the name. He was a jewish person and he declined to

he declined to testify in court as to the identification. You know, Anderson writes that he refused to testify against a fellow Jew or I'm sorry swell, that but you, but to be honest, it's not really knowing why he refused to testify, although I've always imagined that it could just be that he was not really on percent sure about the person he was he saw, but Anderson does say that he was positively identified and that Kosminsky himself sort of

knew that he had been identified. In other words, he somehow reacted at the time to indicate. Perhaps you know guilt, something like that. But it's it's not known exactly what happened, but some. For some reason, Anderson became convinced that that this is the person. I often I often think of as a comparison. What happened with Gary Ridgway when the head of the Green River task force was You know absolutely convinced that Kerr Ridgeway with the Green River killer, but they couldn't prove that either despite the, but there was really a mountain of circumstantial evidence that linked Ridgeway to the Green River. Crimes, but they just did not have the the evidence that would have been required to convict him until they got the dna evidence, and I suspect that something similar may have happened.

This case where they had a lot of circumstantial evidence, but Anderson was a lawyer, so he knew that probably whatever they had, was not going to be sufficient to convict. Now you do extensive research. What I found the one, the most profound parts of book is that you look into this is sanity claim that the Kozminski was insane and then find out when officially it looks like he was, institutionalized and the conditions under there in on which he was institutionalized, with family members, so tell us what you did on cover in that area you mean as far as how he became how it up in the institution. Yes, you know so like I said he he he he was schizophrenic

almost certainly if you, if you read the descriptions you know he's described as having auditory hallucinations. He he heard the voice which he describes. An instinct that informed him of the move. It's all mankind, he claimed you know sort of that. He could. He claim that this voice told him not to drink water out of the tap and not to eat food. That was given to him, and this explains why he was you know. Looking for food in the gutter. You know, schizophrenia is a degenerative disease and you know nowadays it's treatable with drugs, but at the time it was completely untreatable. So you know Aaron, because Minsky's insanity would have

come on kind of slowly, I guess, and by by the time he spent in the asylum. For you know twenty years he's really here, he really had degenerated to the point use you know mumbling in in coherent and things like that, but you know it was said that his son, the first science and sanity, started in eighteen, eighty yeah six, which was you know two years prior to the murders. He was basically used fifty brought to a place called mile end old town workhouse by his brother. You know to

to determine whether he was insane. Basically, you know so it's important to note that his family had him committed basically, and he then this he was brought to the work house see it's someone two years after the the last reprimand, or so there is a gap there where there are no murders and people vast wires and no murders. You know during during this time when he was out on the streets but brought to the work, and then he was released from the work house and then he was brought back six months later and at that time he was looked at by a police search.

Who determined that he was insane and at that point he was committed to only hatch management. Take asylum. Many stayed there for three years and then he was transferred to leaves ten and he stayed there for the rest of his life and you live to the age of fifty four and died in nineteen nineteen. Yes, once in right, for example, if he was brought to the work, has his hands tied behind his back was cruelly brought there against his will right and it's been, it's been speculated whether the police were sort of involved in having him committed you. I I don't want to go off too much into the realm of speculation here, but you You have to wonder. If you're in the city

ation where you believe you know who jack the ripper was, but you couldn't really do anything legally. You know. Is it possible that the police sort of facilitated a situation where he could be a added to an asylum that he would never be released from to sort of gives a sort of a solution to the problem that they would handle. You know, quite discreetly, as a matter fact, so there are, in my opinion, several indications that whatever happened with Aaron Kosminski was kept, kept pretty quiet in the police department. You know which, makes sense, at least in my mind, given you know the level of Anti Semitism and there wasn't in London, you know almost out break of riots at the time of the murders, because the Jews were again blamed. End. You know. The police in fact destroyed one of the key pieces of evidence, which is the

Wilson Street Graffito, because they were worried that that was going to lead to anti jewish rye, and so you know it's entirely possible if you in a situation where you have a jewish suspect. The police would not want that to get out in anyway. So you know, I personally believe that they they they covered up. What happened with Erin Kosminsky, you know, even if they couldn't prove that he was the killer. I think that they didn't

any kind of word to get out about him as a suspect- and you know, they're a little snippets of things here and there that I believe support that theory. In keeping with that, it's thought, though I I thought that when in the book, when you talked about the jewish, witness, didn't a jewish witness to Kosminsky says at least say that it was a possibility that they were interested in not having that kind of riots ensue. If this witness that was do regardless of him coming forward, the perpetrator was jewish and with the jewish anti Semitism already was. Is that not valid, or at least possibly valid that that witness even know we aidid Kosminsky didn't an after thought thought? Maybe not a great idea

It's entirely possible. I suppose you know there are actually even some jewish sources who argue the same point effectively. You know. I personally believe that it may have been sort the combination of that combined with really you know I mean witness. This type of witness identification is notoriously difficult to notoriously faulty I mean false identifications. Are you known to be. Extremely common, you know Joseph Lau, and he was probably the witness said at the time that he would not be able to recognize the person again. It was dark. You know they were quite a ways away. He only caught a glimpse of the guy you know, and is he going to able identify him a year later? You know it's

really unlikely, but it was really the best that they could do so. Maybe they you know showed you know, showed Ameren Kosminsky, and so this is the person he might have said. It looks like him, I think you know, but if you all of a sudden realize that you are the sort of Lynch PIN of the whole case that the whole case rests on you, you may really give a second thought to whether you want to testify, especially given the you know, the situation with Anti Semitism in the east and that's more the way that I, think about it. You know to one of the things that is written about this identification is that he did not want the person to be hanged, and you know based on his evidence and to have that on his conscience,

Sure, yes, is there's a lot of pressure there. I think, and you know I really doubt that he could be- could have been a hundred percent in his identification. Anyway, Yes, go ahead, those guys, as you can say that said, you know there was a positive identification right. There's no ma'am part of your investigation included, the geographical profiling, which is a little bit more recent, oh, more recent type of profiling, and but it's important as well, because it can answer some questions and support your your your theory. Your idea, that Kosminsky is that as a man so tell us about what you did in in terms of that investigation as to the geographical profiling, a movements he yes, the geographical profiling. There's many do

types of it. It uses it uses, source mathematical, modeling of the crime scenes and other geographic factors of particular area where murders are, you know taking place, you know the the jack the ripper murders all took place within walking distance of each other. You know on likes, You know some modern day crimes like the Yorkshire Ripper, where he was driving around in a car. The east end of London was, you know the jack. The ripper was walking around the area. Basically, looking for victims, you know one of the most basic types of geographic profiling involves, what's called circle theory where you just simply draw a circle: the smallest circle possible that contains all the crime scenes, and then you know use as a sort of predictor of where the, where the

killer, lived yeah, I mean this is obviously a very crude sort of message, but even doing that, you know because miscue lived within half a mile of the sent a circle contain all the crime scenes, and you know I. I have walked around the area myself. I sort of understand the layout. I understand where the know where the source of the scene was wearing. Kosminsky lived was comparatively you know: kind of a residential quiet area, the part where all the sort of pro

situation in the bars and all the action was happening, was a little bit north of there. You know so he may have walked up to that area and then just sort of wandered around looking. For you know, victims man walked back home. If you here, if you look at some of the there are some indications of you know the route that Jack the ripper took after the murders. The best one really is the cool since street graffiti, which I referred to in basically, in that case, the killer cut off the pieces, Catherine and as Apron Catherine at us was the the victim in Mitre Square. The the fourth victim of Jack, the ripper right and the killer cut off piece of her apron, either to wipe his hands of blood or two possibly carry away

of the organs. In that case he took way too organs from the body and then that rag covered with blood was discovered. You know several hundred yards to the east of where the crime scene was in. It was left next to this piece of graffiti. That you know, like I said, was the came on the clue said: the Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing which is very cryptic and were difficult to understand, but you know it gives you a clear sense of the direction that the killer walked after committing murder, which is east- and you know, as I map this out and you knowing the area, it's exactly the direction that Aaron Kosminski would have walked to basically go home because you know in my mind he would have avoided the main thoroughfare

which is why Chapel high street, you would have gone on the you know, the slightly more backstreet, which ran parallel to it to the north, which was went worth street and that's you know, gone down that street crossed over White Chapel High Street and gone to his house, which was you know less than a mile away. But you know I mean that that direction that the killer walked would have been exactly the direction Erin Kosminsky to walk to go home. The same could be said for what's often speculated was the yes, so called get away route for the killer after committing the Nichols murder. Who is speculated that the killer went through a sort of an alley that led to again Whitechapel high street and sort of over

the London Hospital again this is the exact route that Aaron Kosminski would have gone to walk home. Another example is the murder of Elizabeth Stride. She was the third or fourth victim depending on you know who counters victims jack the Ripper and her the the crime scene? There was, you know, within probably less than a one minute walking distance of where and cause misuse, probably living at the time that murder in particular, there was a witness who saw a man actually attacking a woman right right at the location where the work where the body was found. You know ten fifteen minutes later. He has a lot of debate among ripper proudest about whether this person was jack. The ripper. I personally believe that

He probably was, and what this witness saw, the witness name was Israel. Schwartz was you know, a murder in progress effectively that Schwartz testimony said that he was walking down the street called Burner street and ahead of him he saw a man walking the same door Shin but kind of stumbling as if drunk and when the person came up to this woman who was standing in the entrance of a courtyard. He basically attacked her and you know again walking down you know south,

down burner St. This is exactly the direction that Aaron Kosminski would have gone gone to get to his his house, which was on Providence, ST probably, which was Providence Street, was one block s of Berner Street. You know so John Douglas, for example, theorized that Jack the Ripper probably went out. You know frequently at night hunting for victims, and he also speculated that he would drink get drunk in the bars. You know so if Aaron Kosminski went up to commercial street or brick lane the places where all the pubs were and got draw and wandered around for awhile and then was walking back home and he's drunk. You know this is exactly the direction he would have walked to get home is down burner ST, and this exactly what Schwartz. So as a man walking down burner street in that direction. Who then

attacked a woman who was probably Elizabeth Stride. So you know you start to add up all these little pieces and it just like everything, just kind of fits perfectly. Given the theory that Aaron Kosminski was Jack, the ripper and there you know there's so many little pieces like that. I If you look at any suspect in the case, the more you learn, often the more you start to see that and it just doesn't really quite fit, there's something that doesn't quite fit with this person. He was either right. You know not there. You know Walter Sickert, for example, who Patricia Cornwell wrote about. He was almost certainly in France at the time the murders, the more you dig into the suspects. You'll find something that kind of disqualifies them. You know with Erin Kosminsky to spin the exact opposite, the more that I we

search in the more that I find out. You know he fits exactly. He fits exactly with with you know, with every aspect of what is known about Jack the ripper, no one example I'll go into just yeah. Go ahead, no go ahead I was just going to give one example, which is something that I found in my book. There's a sort of a famous suspect in the case referred. The Bat E street larger. I don't know if you've heard this person before, but it was a story. It is reported in the newspaper where a larger in a house dropped off laundry to his landlady in the landlady discovered blood on it and then the police. You know

started conducting surveillance, and you know it turns out that the story was actually misreported, but the the newspaper and- and this is discussed in a lot of books and Jack the ripper, but they don't really discuss the fact. The newspapers in the following days updated the story with probably more accurate information. The fact is that there was never a larger at all, but there was a person. Apparently he dropped off some laundry to a laundress who worked on Batty Street, which is just one street to the east of of Burner Street one three north of Providence Street. Where and cause Minsky lived, and you know, there's there's a shirt that had blood run it and she alerted the police to this and the police arrested the

and eventually an interviewed this person and released him and you, the newspaper reports describe this person is being a ladies Taylor who lived a few hundred yards from Crime scene, who worked for a West end house in this fits perfectly with Aaron Kosminski's brother, who is a ladies Taylor, lived a few one hundred yards, the north of the crime scene, and this had never been noted before to my knowledge in any ripper book, but then it had never been known that his brothers were. Ladies Taylor, really there's also the fact that because Minsky's brother removed his daughter from school and she was going to school at a place called the Burner Street school, which is directly opposite from the crime scene and heat took her out of school, exactly

I think one day after the baddie Street larger story first appeared in the newspapers. You know it's a decent start to kind of add up where you I can imagine I. I suspect that the family suspected Erin was the killer and didn't know what to do about it. You know, but we're probably talking about it in the home. You know kind of in hushed stones and innocent type of thing that you don't want a ten. Year old girl to over here and start talking about in school, so they removed her from the school You know this is all speculation, but you know if you look at the dates it matches perfectly is a coincidence that she was removed from the school one day after this newspaper report about the baptistery larger. So I try to avoid speculating, but

goes to show you how little is actually known, but you know, like I said these things they all start to start to they sort this sort of fit together. You know I've described it like being a jigsaw puzzle where you have very few of the pieces, but he has a lot of pieces missing, but you start to see the picture and everything you know is fitting together. Yes, it's you done a masterful job, putting that puzzle together before I let you go. I want to ask about the origin of some of the photos. The incredible photos that you have in your book so tell us a little bit about all these incredible. Rules that are included in your book and maybe tell us a couple of the interesting source where you got some of these from a lot of the photos in the book or ones that have been known in Ripper Jack. The ripper books long time

you know the photos of the victims. I also have photos of Quad over Poland, which is where Aaron Kosminski was from, and I and I traveled there myself in two thousand and eight and took some pictures, There are photos of modern day locations of the streets where his siblings lived in the east end of London, which you know they look quite different now than they did then, because all these old row houses were demolished. It is a very nice photo in the book of the street where Erin, because Minsky's brothers lived, which is called green Field Street there's a this is a great photo of Donald Swanson in

book that it has never been published before, and I got that from his great grand son. You know it's interesting because I also briefly had in my possession Donald Swanson's pistol, because his great grand son bought it from you know kind of an antique gun dealer here in the US, and you know I kind of conducted the transaction myself and I had I had this gun at my house and it's an old you know to Trantor pistol from the 1880s eighties. It's inscribed with a little. You know such touching on it to Donald Swanson, very small gun action. But is really interesting to have that. You know in my possession for six months or something like that.

But yeah I mean there's, there's a lot of really good photos in the book of the you know the crime scenes. There's a photo of Aaron because Minsky's graves that I've visited, which is in the east end of London, and It's the inscription on the grave is just literally. Rating is dissolving, which you know, as I say, it is kind of sitting really for him as a person, because you know he's just so little is known about him. It's it's it's! It's almost like it's fitting that the end this disappearing almost the same way that he serve, appeared and then disappeared in in history. Really and there's other good pictures in the book. There's there's nice maps that,

so the lay out of all the crime scenes and where he lives yeah. It's incredible total package how this jack, the ripper in the case for Scotland Yard's prime suspect I went up why'd you for this. I want to ask you if there, for those that might be further interested in your work and this book and anything else that you are doing, you have a website new to Facebook. Tell us a little bit about my people might be able to contact. You get more. Information about you, I do have a facebook page for the book. You know Jack the ripper and the case for Scotland Yard's prime suspect on Facebook. You know the books available on Amazon and other online stores. You know some,

he has any questions or want to send a message. They can send it to that Facebook page and I should get it yeah. My my personal website is much more geared towards my. My work is as a designer. So there's nothing really on there right now, but the case but yeah I mean well Alberta, people to buy the book. Absolutely it's a great book, an for anybody that has read anything about Jack the ripper. This is show talking that we really do get a pretty good idea of the the best suspect, according to the police at the time and thanks to Martin a Fido, and then your follow up in your incredible adventure to to try to dismiss or have this person as suspect in that you've done a great job in in painting the likely Jack the ripper, and it's a fascinating book on.

Thank you very much for coming on and talking about Jack, the ripper and a case for Scotland Yard's prime suspect. Thank you very much, Robert House. Sure, thanks for having me on, you have a great night tonight. Okay, you too Bye bye is your fixed income truly fixed income? Does it provide diversification, income and risk management for your clients at Mfs? We help advisors, deliver these essentials. We call it essential. Fixed income find out more at Mfs DOT, com, Slash fixedincome, Loyalty is all about being there day in day out,

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