On the morning of September 12, 2013, a fugitive task force arrested Arthur Fryar at his apartment in Brooklyn. His DNA, entered in the FBI’s criminal database after a drug conviction, had been matched to evidence from a rape in Pennsylvania years earlier. Over the next year, Fryar and his lawyer fought his extradition and prosecution for the rape—and another like it—which occurred in 1992. The victims—one from January of that year, the other from November—were kept anonymous in the media. This is the story of Jane Doe January.Emily Winslow was a young drama student at Carnegie Mellon University’s elite conservatory in Pittsburgh when a man brutally attacked and raped her in January 1992. While the police's search for her rapist proved futile, Emily reclaimed her life. Over the course of the next two decades, she fell in love, married, had two children, and began writing mystery novels set in her new hometown of Cambridge, England. Then, in fall 2013, she received shocking news—the police had found her rapist.This is her intimate memoir—the story of a woman’s traumatic past catching up with her, in a country far from home, surrounded by people who have no idea what she’s endured. Caught between past and present, and between two very different cultures, the inquisitive and restless crime novelist searches for clarity. Beginning her own investigation, she delves into Fryar’s family and past, reconnects with the detectives of her case, and works with prosecutors in the months leading to trial.As she recounts her long-term quest for closure, Winslow offers a heartbreakingly honest look at a vicious crime—and offers invaluable insights into the mind and heart of a victim. JANE DOE JANUARY: My Twenty-Year Search For Truth and Justice-Emily Winslow
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Radio. You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. On the morning of September 12th, two thousand and thirteen a few the task force arrested, Arthur Fryer at his apartment in Brooklyn his deal,
they entered in the FBI's criminal database after a drug conviction had been matched evidence from a rape in Pennsylvania years earlier over. The next the air Fryer and his lawyer fought his extradition, an prosecution for the rape and another like which occured in nineteen ninety two, the victims, run from January of that year, the other from November were kept in Thomas in the media, this is the story of Jane, DOE January. Emily Winslow was a young drama student at Carnegie, Mellon University's Elite conservatory in Pittsburgh. When and brutally attacked and raped her in January, one thousand nine hundred and ninety two. While the police is search for her rapist proved futile, Emily, reclaimed. Her life the course of the next two decades she fell in love. Married had two children and began writing mystery novel set in her new hometown of Cambridge England, then in fall. Two
one thousand and thirteen. She received shocking news. The police had found her rapist. This is her intimate memoir the story of a woman's traumatic past catching up with her in a country far from home, surrounded by people who have no idea what she's insured caught between past and present an between two hundred different cultures inquisitive and restless crime. Novelist searches for clarity beginning her own investigation, she delves into fryers, family and past reconnect With the detectives of her case and works with prof computers in the months leading to trial, we should be counts or long term quest for closure. Winslow offers a heartbreakingly, honest, look at a vicious crime and offers invaluable insights into the mind and heart of a victim looked over featuring today is Jane DOE January by twenty years, search for truth and justice with my special guest author
Emily Winslow welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing in this interview. Emily Winslow thanks very much Dan. I'm happy to be here thank you very much Emily. Now. As I mentioned in the introduction in, One thousand nine hundred and ninety two are. You were a twenty two year old drama student in third year at Carnegie, Mellon University and you said in an elite conservatory in Pittsburgh. Who were you at that time? Where did you grow up where you were just person a cautious person. What was your life like before this rape in nineteen? Ninety two. I had grown up in New Jersey, the youngest of four kids, a teenage picture of the 80s generation x. All the way. My older sister was at the time that I was in college, a professional actress and she had been in the program before
me, so it seemed very natural to follow in her footsteps and I felt very lucky to get in and to be there and to be part of that very small group of people, and that became Key the class at CMU of actors was so small. There were just sixteen of us and we were to go other. You know from nine in the morning till eleven at night. Most days it was an exhausting program. It was really difficult sometimes, but we had each each other and having that coherent group turned out to be exactly what I needed when I had to cope with what suddenly happened,
in the winter of nineteen? Ninety, two and further answer your questions. Yes, I I was a devout christian. I still am a practicing Christian and at the time, the way that that played out is that- and I think this is what you heard you were indicating is that I was waiting for marriage, before being physically intimate with a boyfriend. So I was rather innocent, which was something that my acting teacher sometimes struggled with and I was very idealistic- and I think I was a little bit adventurous- I had spent the previous summer in the Middle EAST by myself, because I wanted to see the pyramids. So that's that's who I was
at twenty two at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh. Now you were this silly, conservatory? So, again, you said you were you felt a little bit more conf, yeah, because you had you had traveled so, but how cautious. Were you and also tell us about this? Is it Shadyside tell us about this little community and how comfortable and safe did you feel before we talk about the event itself? The rape itself, the day in question, tell us but how comfortable he felt. How naive were you? How cautious were you and how safe do you feel in this little community. Carnegie Mellon University is in the city of Pittsburgh, but it's not near downtown at all. It's nowhere near the skyscrapers of the city of Pittsburgh. It's in
three neighborhood area, pretty much Oakland Squirrel Hill and shady side. Shady side is where I lived it was. It wasn't a beautiful little area based around this little street called Walnut Street, where they had a lot of fun shops and restaurants, and because I was an introvert the studio apartment and lived alone. We were with each there we, with other people all day long constantly working with other people and
Living alone was with my retreat, it was I could. I could go home and deep, breaths and sort of center myself again. Shadyside was a place that that very safe, safe because it was it was busy and it it just seemed like a. I guess, the typical nice neighborhood it was well lit. It was charming and, yes, I felt very safe there Now, let's get to the event itself and the sir come stances in which you found yourself. Ah you described in the book, you go. You take us right through that experience itself. You are going to do laundry that night so t take it from there why you leave the building and what you notice right away and your response during all of this event,
leading up to the rape. It was Christmas break ah, it was a Sunday late afternoon classes were starting up again on Tuesday, so it was time to get to you from those monologues that I had not looked at at all the time, to have memorized by Tuesday, and I. To wash my clothes and it was a Qu operated washer in the building, so I needed to get change of a dollar, and so that's why I left my apartment that evening and as I walked out I noticed somebody hanging around my building, who I had never seen before, because that is not that not that odd we work, you know I was just a block from Walnut Street, where there are lots of people from from all over in Pittsburgh. So it wasn't that strange, but it was a little strange to see somebody right next to my building, but I thought well, it's a public ST he had
the right to be there and just went on my way. What made me remember him 'cause. Obviously that wouldn't have stuck in my mind was that when I got my change and ran my errands and came back as I saw him again, except he wasn't near my building. He was walking Tord my building and I'm not sure if he deliberately cleverly, planned it. The way it happened, in which case gosh that was clever or if it just happened to be this way. Timing, wise but he had been behind me if he had been following me. I would have been suspicious immediately. That's creepy being follow and I would have had a lot of alternatives. A lot of stores. I could have gone into a lot of restaurants, a lot of people I could have turned to, but instead what was-
happening. Was he also happened to be walking Tord the same door? I was but from a completely different direction, and so that was enough for me to think. Oh, he doesn't mean me He just happens to be: he must have been waiting for a friend in front of our building an now going to ring the doorbell and see if his friend is in, so I just kept walking towards the door, but I did think to myself. You know what I am not going to hold the door for him. You know, as you would, for a neighbor. It's always a kindness to you hold the door so that they don't have to get out there keys, but I thought you know what I don't know him. I will I'm just going to let the door close behind me and I was
close enough to the building and he was far enough away from the building that actually that would have worked except he started jogging to catch up with me and catch the door, which is exactly what happened. He he caught the door and I remember his hand catching the door right at the level of my ear, and I was I wish he hadn't caught the door, but I thought to myself. Well, there are plenty of times I didn't want to bother. You know digging my keys out and stuff, and so I might have job to catch the door behind a neighbor. So I just kind of talked myself out of it. I wasn't. Anxious enough to turn around and leave the building which I could have done, but I was a little bit suspicious enough that, instead of going up the stairs- and he would
had to follow me and gone right to my apartment. I decided to delay and I fiddled with my mailbox a bit just to just to kill time and he walked up the stairs and I remember feeling relief I fee, so relieved. I thought, oh see, what were you worried about he's going to go upstairs and see his friend Maybe he lives in one of the apartments upstairs and I've. Somehow I've never seen him before, but but I didn't realize at the time and in fact I didn't realize it until over twenty years later, when I was looking at the notes that the police had made us, how I describe that night to them is that by fiddling with my mailbox, I showed him my apartment number. And so what he was able to do was he just went upstairs and my apart in door happened to be next to the store, well going up to the third floor and it's a closed stairwell without a door, and he hid in that stairwell
And when I unlocked my door, he jumped and pushed me inside the apartment shut the door. Put his hand over my mouth pressed me against the wall and said: do you want to die. He had spoken to you just previous to that, an apartment, and you add you do that in your book. It's very interesting a little bit of banter downstairs where he'd asked me. If I was married- and you know I said what I think I said- that's private because I wasn't- I wasn't quick enough to lie yeah No one sees in your. In your house and he says: do you want to die. His hand over your mouth. What does he do? What does what is? Is the next step in and how What's your decision to comply resist,
what is your initial, my tongue, Priority was not to die, and the way to do that was too cooperate. I tried to cooperate. I tried to reason with him I tried to I asked you know: can we do this? Not that that sort of thing heat later the detectives used the phrase, gentlemen rapist, which is a horrible horrible phrase, but you can google it. It is a. It is a thing. It basically describes a rapist who is not sadistic, they don't want to hurt their victim, but they are willing to hurt their victim as much as is required to get them to comply with exactly what they want, and that does describe him very well, and I
did try to comply to the best of my ability. I wasn't always people too, and then he had to use some more force. He had to smother me twice because I was screaming and I actually, I think I heard I don't actually know if this is true, but I heard in the gossip that the upstairs neighbor had heard me screaming, but because I had stopped, they didn't do any. And I don't- I don't hold- that against him at all. I mean we've all heard something that sounds distressing for a moment and then it stops well. It stopped. And how he stopped you from screaming. Was to smother you in that. Try to stifle your breath right right now, you in the book that it seems like,
this same screw she a Ting time abuses. You is there a more threats and watt? If anything else, does he say to you and what is his b? Savior during this entire ordeal. You know it's when I was describing it to the police. I kept saying how big he was. When I was describing it to my friends? I kept saying how long it was. You know once I got much more distant from It was. It was no more than half an hour, I don't think and seeing him in court. You know twenty some odd years later, yeah he's he's big he's man sized but he's not as big. I think it all felt.
Uh, bigger and a longer amount of time that it actually was just because it was so awful. I must say: actually he was fairly efficient about it. He knew exactly what he wanted and he went about getting it and then amazingly wonderfully he just
left, and that was an incredible moment because I thought for sure I was going to die and when it seemed like he wasn't going to kill me, I thought for sure he was going to try to you know make it so that I could not call the police make it so that I could not uh easily. You know get out of the apartment in some way, but instead he just once he was done uh. He told me to rest vaguely gestured to my futon, uh and and then left and close the door behind him, and I was able to just leap out, Lock the door that was the most important thing and then call nine one one. Now you describe this ordeal,
again, it's an ongoing ordeal because now you've been raped, but there is a sense of relief. You do lock you're able to lock this this door, your door and so then called the authorities and now is the again ordeal, but at least and again you are feeling relief as soon as your able to reach people, because there are people that are empathetic, compassionate as soon as you up to watch them and they come into the you come into their care. So tell us about the again the ordeal of the dna, the rape kit itself part me right. Well, the so. First the police came to the apartment, several of them, I think it was. You know two or three men and one women, that's vaguely how I remember it in my tiny little studio apartment and I had been so careful to not change my clothes not wash
not affect anything that could be evidence 'cause. That was that you know that was written about in women's magazines. I've been reading that for years in you know all the women's magazines that teenagers read. So I answered the the door kind of you know he's still in still holding my dress together and, of course, they needed my clothes for evidence once I changed, they took me to the hospital and the hospital staff were absolutely wonderful. It was Magee Women's Hospital in Pittsburgh, probably the emergency room, and although I'm not absolutely certain- and I member. There were lots and lots of nurses and
doctor was a woman, and the nurses were also they were just very deeply. Uh deeply concerned about what had happened to me and deeply emotional about it. Even if they went about they're, very practical business. Trying to help me and the doctor was just wonderful, while she was examining me- and you know, asking me to tell her- you know what had happened She kept reassuring me that I had done the right thing and I think what she was meeting to communicate with that there was nothing in my compliance that made this not a rape. There was nothing in my compliance that made me complicit in this experience.
And I really appreciated that. No as well used, you say the detected that are that are assigned to this case, And you also weed talk about how good good look. You got it. This person that the several times of this encounter itself, but how, Worthwhile was the id that you gave to the police you know, I was able to grab him generally. I then you know I'm I'm a writer before I wrote this memoir I've, I've written three crime novels and if you read my novels, I very rarely describe characters physically, not unless there's something about their physical description that impact another character,
or impact the decision they make or something. But I very rarely just you know, just apropos of nothing describe the way. Somebody looks that's not generally what my mind keys on so I was able to describe him as best I could. But you know you hear terrible stories about women who have you know. I've been through a terrible experience, been to a stranger: rape identify their attacker. As an eye witness in court where that it's true and they mean it and then it turns out years later. I play, shows that it was somebody else. I would never ever ever one You know my eyewitness testimony of somebody I don't actually know to be what put somebody away, so I am that's one of the wonderful blessings of
dna evidence is that now I read, They truly know. Yes, I did once once they caught him and I looked at photos of him. I absolutely recognized him, but I would never want that recognition to be the sole, the sole evidence.
So you talked about when you sorry go ahead up what the detectives were mostly interested in. I should clarify there were police that came to my apartment right, others were uniformed police and then there were the medical staff at the hospital and then it's out the hospital that the detectives came and they would. They were mostly interested in wasn't so much the physical description of the man. What they were interested in was my a list exactly what he did and I'll never forget this state. The detective detective Valente, who I ended up re connecting with decades
After he was arrested after it, the man was arrested, not detective, let he sat down with me and he apologized for having to ask me these questions, but he said that he needed to know everything that happened, because every different kind of touch would become a different charge when they caught him right, and that was just the right thing to say to me. It was just the right mix of no. We can do some, about this and every bit of this matters. That was just very reassuring. And rather than making me tell it again myself, he just listed different things and had me say yes, no, yes, no, yes, no and just made a little record.
Of all the different acts that would be held against him when he was finally caught, and that was that Very well handled, at least for me in particular, that was very well handled. You write in the book of the state of dna analysis and technology. At that time, as so this rape kit, you describe or you talk about Codice at that time and its state. Of having the dna included. Tell what you have written in the book about DNA. At that time in nineteen. Ninety two, so in nine, ninety two dna, Analysis technology existed. It was known, it was used in court, but then, as now dna. Analysis is only useful if you are. Comparing two things. So if you have a suspect, you can use it. If you don't
well, you just have a and how you just have to meet. I looked at my dick the analysis of my evidence. It's it's. It's gonna be go if you know unless you're comparing it to- another analysis and saying yes, there a match so at there were, unfortunately, no databases, yet that until the late nineties. That state started keeping records of criminal dna. That was simple, love hip, but you know the end records of dna analysis of of people who had been convicted for various crimes and then the FBI, their database called Codice Came about in the late 90s that started incorporating all the states records one by one and that's when you could start to use
the evidence from stranger rapes. That's when you could start to do something with the evidence from rapes in which there was no suspect, but until then these evidence kits these rape kits just got stored. It's because the police didn't care. It's not because the forensic lab didn't think my case was worthy not at all. It's because there was no one to compare it to and by the time Pennsylvania got a database by the time the Codis database came into its own. My case was old news and again it's not because they didn't care it's because they were just trying to keep up with the current caseload and the detective in Pitts Burg, who, in two thousand and thirteen when this case came to court, who was in fact working on cold cases and did so out of great care
for those old victims waiting for their turn. She did that, on top of her normal workload in the sex crimes and child abuse unit, and even She with all her determination and skill, could only manage to sit in an average of two old cold cases a year. Out of you know the hundreds, so you know the detectives I dealt with really cared and the medical personnel I dealt with really cared It was just a matter of bad timing, technology, wise and then you know being on the back burner. Now how important was you talked about home, Pourtant acting was for you and the the small class and this community and the friendships.
An instructor so tell us how important it was to have these people after the rate. I was so grateful to be surrounded by actors, not just people who happen to be on, but you know, actors that I was working with on a day to day basis. We It was very normal for us to deal with very strong emotions. We were very articulate about big emotions and dramatic situation. And we were very physically affectionate with one another just in in a in a friendly way, and all of that was just hugely hugely
instrumental in helping me cope and also just having a system to put myself back into you. I took three weeks off of school. And I just I stayed at a friend's house- I I moved in with friends immediately from the hospital and then it was really important to have school, to go back to to have this structure to just slip in and have all these little milestones already. Decided and set before me You know that everybody around me knew what had happened and we could talk about it and that the the boys in my class that we would touch each other in class. You know we're just as part of a scene or something
and I knew it was. It was a way to sort of adjust to say these are good men that was the bad man. These are different. And it was just hugely reassuring I'll I'll, never stop being grateful for their kindness and a special for the way that they took on what happened to me as sort of something that happened to all of us. It was an offense against us. As a group and they were hurt by it too, and it was just wonderfully reassuring. You right, the anger that you didn't have initially, because you Still, I guess in shock. Is that Some of that anger. You well lot of that anger. You didn't have to really express, because these people expressed that dutiful outrage and anger for you. Yes, I mean I did
feel angry sometimes absolutely because I felt everything sometimes. But what was a wonderful gift is that in my friends outraged on my behalf. They expressed anger. They expressed understanding that this was wrong, that this should be fixed, that this is horrible, that that man did a terrible thing and all of them thing. That meant that I didn't need to prove that to anybody. I didn't need to act out for anybody to prove hey. This is important. Hey I'm really hurt hey. You know he was wrong, I didn't do anything wrong, I didn't have to push.
The of that because they acknowledge that so clearly, and that was that was great. I feel like that. Freed me two. Yes, I could also be angry if that's what I felt, but I didn't have to be angry to prove anything. It was great. It was very, very It was loving and important and they did it very very well. Thank you. Say the book you gave yourself a year to now get over it, but to cope with it and and you do Yourself that year, that you said okay, I'm going to be able to screw up in each. But after that, I'm going to buckle down you do graduate from, acting classes from school and what
Now this transition, you you've always written, but how does it become? You become a crime novelist and tell us how you do begin to other than supportive people. How do you how about rebuilding your life and is this crime? This writing any part of that? Is there any? influence whatsoever at all as other people, I asked you in your book. Read about it so tell us both this transition and how is it that you become from acting to writing? And how do you rebuild your life in actuality? Well about that year that I gave myself it's a bit like when I'm working on a new book and give myself these little mini deadlines along the way. I almost never never make my little self imposed deadlines, but they're hopeful there's something to aim for, and you know
It's not like a year went by and then I decided okay well that's over now, but I was aiming for that. I was I was trying and it wasn't just about how okay in a year, I'm not going to, let myself be a mess anymore. It was more like right now until we hit that year, no guilt be as much of a mess. If you need to be, it is giving me that freedom. It's like look. I have it's kind of like when you wake up in the morning and you know you have to get up at seven and you wake woken up and it's not seven yet, and it's like okay, I don't actually have to deal with this yet and so giving myself that it wasn't a pressure. It was the opposite. It was just a for right now, you don't need to worry about being a mess. Being a mess is completely appropriate. And so it was eighteen months to Graduate- and you know everything was the school
Graham, let me have some leeway but for the most part, did everything same as everyone else and I acted in all the same place, and that was a wonder stabilizing normalcy, having having that too to work on each day. I had. I don't know if I left, acting or rather declined to pursue, acting because of the rate. A lot of people ask me that, because it was such a big change to get into this program to act, We make it through this program and then decide not to go to New York, not audition. I honestly don't know if it was because of rate, because how do you ever know who you would have been or what you would have done anyway? You know the early twenties is a time
such change and trying out different things. So it's it's hard to say, but. Before I had gone to this conservatory been trying to choose between writing acting writing. Acting writing acting and after finishing at CMU, I must but I found writing to be. A real relief as an introvert, not just because I could do it alone, but also because it was judged from a distance in acting school you're. Given all the feedback you given is so personal and it's right to your face, and it's not just about being good about it acting, but it's about you know
we're going to re teach you how to walk we're. Gonna re teach you how to sit we're going to be key to literally to breed. They want to start from scratch and teach you how to believe, and so, if you want him to feel very, under mentally criticized over and over and over again and of course, as a writer one can be funded. He criticized, but at least it doesn't happen with people face to face with you in the same room. So it seems like that's a vast improvement. So that's why I decided ok! Well, let's do this and I was doing some research for a play. I wanted to write and ended up going to graduate school to complete that research, and you know you asked me how how do you get over it, and I think it's important to say that I don't think I got over it or past it. It's I incorporated it this this thing it happened it
Terrible and it's part of me, I guess some people say over. If they mean how do you get over the negativity of the controlling you, you know, and that certainly is an important thing to try to do, but I guess for me I don't feel like I got away from it so much as I just accepted it and made something else out of it. I started writing about. It very shortly after it happened, and that was how I won my first writing awards and that it's very gratifying you know. Obviously you know people.
About how writing about it? Is therapeutic you're letting it out, and that's that's true, that there is a therapeutic aspect to that honesty. But beyond that, for me is not just getting it out But getting it out and then taking that raw material and using skill and using conscious decision making using talent losing my mind to create something. That's that stands alone that stands apart from me as the work of art as something I can be proud of. That's what was truly therapeutic to me was taking it and turning it into something useful, turning it into something beautiful, turning it into something good Now, while you are have a burgeoning career in as a crime novelist, also you build in the most important way in now
is a very loving relationship and to meet your husband future husband, Gavin, and then you wind up in Cambridge England, so this completely different life from your from New Jersey to Petsburgh to Cambridge England, so tell us little bit about, and you don't go too much. Into it, and you do talk about your children a little bit but op Obviously, your husband is an extraordinary person and you're going through this before we talk about what happens in twenty thirteen just tell us little bit about part of this rebuilding process, where your You meet the love of your life and rebuild and have a family. It was actually the the semester that the rate happened that my best friend who was at college in Ohio, had a semester abroad in Cambridge England an met, the man who eventually became my husband ice '
will have a letter. She wrote me at that time saying that she'd met him and had a crush on him. And they were. They became good friends and kept in touch for years after she came back to America and after she came back to America, when she decided that actually I would be a better match with him than her and she spent five years trying to set us up which was really hard. 'cause, we lived in different countries, but I finally managed it. Five years later, After we heard about each other from her for those five years, we finally met. We got married eight months later, which was just lovely and we we lived in Silicon Valley, California, because of his job, and had baby number one and then, into New England, baby number two and then back to
Cambridge England, because we thought that would be a really great place to raise the kids, it's a beautiful city. It's an inspiring city and the the university is so generous and an open with all kinds of educational activities and inspiration an for me the surprise was when I got here. It's Cambridge. That finally was the last puzzle piece. I needed to write. My first novel I had been writing for me, greens. I had been a puzzle designer I, you know had been writing, poetry and essays and place, that I wanted to write a novel and it finally, when I got here to this city that something finally clicked into place and that's the novel that became the whole world, which was my first crime novel the first in the series and I'm still writing a crime novel set in Cambridge today. Now meanwhile wild
This is going on. You are in touch with numerous detectives, as you say, they don't stay too long in the sexual assault unit and this is years over the years. You keep contacting every once in awhile, when you say it's very frustrating, why is it frustrating tell us your experience with police over the years contacting detectives. First of all, it's for me, I prefer to write. Email is the greatest thing ever invented, because you can organize your thoughts and present them coherently and send them off, and then somebody else can reply to them once they've organized there Fox having to their own. The police cold was always very stressful. I would phone them every two or three years just to check up on progress on my case and to ask them to look again at my case and when I'd phone,
you know almost always whoever I had spoken to you know two years prior or three years prior wouldn't work there anymore and so I'd be handed off to a random person who, of course, you know those shady side, rapes in nineteen. Ninety two were just you know. Out of, any completely forgotten. So I'd have to tell the whole story over again and even if you know, but when this case when this prosecution was happening, and I had detectives and there were active- who are actively king on my case. Even then phoning was stressful, be if you never knew what shifts they were working so I'd be trying to figure out the time difference between and in pittsburgh- and when should I call it's not like they worked office hours and I could say: ok, it's ten am in Pittsburgh. They should be in what if they had worked the night before the overnight shift or some.
Thing so it was just never knowing. When was the right time. Never knowing who you were going to get always having to explain, explain, explain to essentially a stranger. And one of the saddest moments I remember was when I was changing my address book, my handwritten address book into digital typing everything in And I had in the last leaf of the book the names of all the detectives that I had spoken to for years and years and years just constantly changing, changing changing an eye through the address book away without copying, the names out. 'cause, I thought: what does it matter? They're gone one hour or another that detectives left that detective less, that detectives left doesn't matter. I just threw it away now tell us
I'm unlike where you were in nineteen. Ninety two: where were you in twenty thirteen, when you got the call Ann, why What is new in your life or what was. Real prominent in your life at that time? What was color what you were doing when you got that call and your reaction and two thousand and thirteen our sons were, Around twelve and eight, and my had a lovely tech job and we were living in this beautiful city house, full of musical instruments 'cause both our boys, our musicians and very happy life and working on book number three, and when I got the call that that this man had been identified and arrested, it's
Korsak all that I had dreamed of over those years. You know it was it was twenty one years since the rape itself and over those twenty one years, of course I had dreamed over and over and over again that I wanted this good thing to happen, but I had always assumed that the process would be you know first. The detective finally agree to pull my evidence kit with I have not yet happened over those twenty when he hears of me asking them that they would finally agreed to put it in line at the lab to be analyzed, and then, of course, that would take weeks or months and then we might get a result and then we might get a match and then they you might there might be. In a rest, I thought you know this would happen. You know this would be step, it's along a fairly long process, but this came out of nowhere because they weren't arresting him for my
the evidence they weren't arresting him. For my case, would it have? It was in nineteen. Ninety two November, which was ten months after my attack. Very near me. Just a couple of streets away. There had been another rate- and I remember when it was reported in the newspaper one of my teachers to told me about it, because it seemed very obvious that it was likely the same man and the police thought the same thing. So they had actually pulled the kit of this November victim and analyzed her evidence and identified the man, and Gone to arrest him, he was at that time living in Brooklyn and so when I got the news. It was amazing news, but it, really really K. Out of nowhere, and also it came for another woman's case.
Not specifically mine, although they were now determined to try to link it to mine, so it was full of hopefulness that Oh my gosh, this is finally happening. My case is going to go to court but on the other hand, all this tension of what, if my evidence, still isn't viable what if it is viable and it's not this man. What? If? What? If what? If her case goes, forward and I'm just left behind, I'm so close, but will I get that last. That last you know few months forward and find that this is actually happening, and I feel, like those those few months waiting for the lab tests of my evidence and waiting for his extradition from New York to Sylvania probably felt longer than the intervening twenty years so I didn't know this too and that he fought the extradition from state to state and he basically
basically fought the extradition on what grounds. As I understand it, the way the detectives explained it to me. They were flabbergasted to be honest because when you're being extradited, you can't fight extradition. On the basis of I didn't commit the crime you fight extradition on the basis of wo you've got the wrong person, so he was. He was claiming to not be the person that they said he was Of course they not only had dna, they had fingerprints, they had photographs from a different time, he'd been in the Pennsylvania legal system. So they were absolutely certain. They had the right man, but as long as he claimed that they didn't this delay just went on and on. Now. This time is, is spent well by the prosecution to get to get more
more of the ducks in a row but also What do you do shortly after with this in terms of your own investigation into Arthur will say Arthur Fryer. Who you find out, is the perpetrator. So what do the police do? Or the prosecutor- pardon me in the Centrum and and what do you to soon launch yourself into well. At the point of arrest, there wasn't a prosecutor, yet at the point we're still in the in the first half of law and order program where it's all detectives, so we haven't been assigned legal. Representation yet as we're getting closer and closer to that? the rule was that as soon as he makes it to Pennsylvania soon, as he is successfully extradited that he has to be true
charged, and the preliminary hearing has to happen within a very short period of time on his arrival. That's all part of having a speedy trial, So you know we were just waiting and waiting once the extradition happened. It was all going to go very fast in terms of the first time I was going to be testifying and what I was picturing was when we would fight- really get into court, I imagined that I would get to learn all the things I wanted to know. I would get to learn who he is then why he did it. Why does he keep anybody? Why did he teach use me. How did he end up in shady side that night why they so? Why? My building all these things I wanted to know? And yet, once we got a prosecutor assigned to us
and once I went through the preliminary hearing, which is a sort of rehearsal ofc, but much more casual it's in the municipal court building instead of the the proper courthouse and it's you know, it's just got. Regular chairs? You know nothing, fancy, no witness box to sit in and the judge. I kid you not coord gum the entire time which actually relaxed me and made me laugh. I thought that was quite funny once I went through that process and we got assigned prosecutors and we were starting to actually build the case. I realized that I was the only person who wanted all that information, the detectives and the prosecutor.
Only needed evidence and information about our cases They only needed to know what happened to me and the other victim. They only needed to know what happened. Those nights and I realized that nobody was going to be looking for the explanations that that I was craving the explanations that to me are part and parcel of finally finding out who this guy is. So it was after with the preliminary hearing in J Uari, two thousand and fourteen that I came back to England and we, preparing for what would become the the proper trial eventually scheduled for October. That I realized. If I wanted to know any of this, I was going to have to figure it out myself, and so
I put some bounds on myself. I absolutely never ever want to interact with him, so that's completely off the table I also don't want to add all interact with his family. And in my book I'm very careful to never use the names any family members, because you know it's not their fault, that they are related to him. Sure, and so I was pretty limited, but the internet is a wonderful thing and all So a pretty maddening thing, because, just because you find a page on the internet. That says something doesn't mean, it's exactly right doesn't mean It necessarily means what you think it means a lot of times it would there be a place name, and it was unclear well- is that a county or a city
a lot of times they would be uh and incarceration date is that the date he went in the date he went out the date he was sentence. The date the crime happened There was a lot of ambiguity, especially since I'm looking for the life of somebody who was born in, I think one thousand nine hundred and fifty two. So of course most of his life is pre internet, but I was able to use not only the int, net, but also the freedom of Information ACT. To find out about his history in the military and calling county clerks office is to try to trace his record of arrests and incarcerations, and I was finally able to put together a story of his life and it's not a story that answered the. Why questions um
and it's not a story that that gave me any kind of explanatory trauma. You know when I found out his age. I was like, oh, he could have been in the v no more. Maybe that messed him up. You know, but although he was in the armed Forces day, in Vietnam. He never left America. You know I kept searching for some. When you're seeing a movie and they finally give you the origin story of the bad guy. You just got that's why and I never did find that. But I found two things that I. I hadn't realized I was looking for, but that turned out to be really really helpful. I mean the first thing is that all of these little discoveries, especially I mean something as ridiculous as finding a picture of him on Facebook of him playing the guitar um.
It humanized him in a way that made me realize that to me he had been this powerful force- you know this this this horse that had appeared in my life out of nowhere and done this terrible thing and then disappeared again and by researching and looking into his life, he just gradually became smaller and smaller until he was just a purse You know he was just the size of me and everybody else, and that of course was wonderfully comforting and the other thing is that you know I'd always hoped that I would hear him testify, although realistically. You probably if I thought about it- really hard- I probably would have always known he would never testify it, not really in his favor to do so with
the evidence against him. They had always hoped to hear in his words. What was this to him And while I'll never have that, what would eventually was found- and this was you know when I was writing out the chapters where I'm doing the research- genuinely happened to this way. I I did not manipulate the timing of this. This was the piece of information that I wanted most and had been trying from the start to get so hard with delayed by all kinds of things outside of my control, and it arrived last and what it was. He had been convicted of rape back in the 70s and served seven years instead, and I've been trying to get information about that case. You know the mentioned in the were. Exceedingly brief,
and given my track record of the information I've been getting about other arrest and incarceration. I wasn't expecting much you know by now. You know a lot of that stuff has been You know shredded or mislaid, or is just it's just gone, and if you do get it, it tends to be a summary not you know the actual file, but this site it was found for me this. This county clerk's office in Upstate New York, sent me this envelope. It ended up being like half an inch thick of documents and a half an inch does not sound too impressive, but when everything else I've been getting It had been a single sheet of paper or, like maybe three, if it's really generous,
getting one slash. Two inch stack of paper in the mail was very exciting and what I found in there, which absolutely shocked me um. So so I had been referring to this rate for which he was arrested in nineteen. Seventy six. I think um I'd been calling it his first known, rape and I'd been couching it that way, because, of course just because this is the first one that he was arrested for doesn't mean that it was the first one that he committed,
but actually once I got this packet in the mail, I I believe that this was his first rape, because what he did afterward is he drove himself straight to the police station and confessed it and there in those documents, was his detailed confession of what I believe was the first time. He did this terrible act and you know it's not a confession of what he did to me um, but it I guess
accomplish the same thing for me, seeing it in his words, not what he did to me. Seeing his point of view on him doing this act uh. I guess it was sufficient and I got enough information at that point that I was able to stop and say this is enough. Now, during this you have you, don't know the outcome of what's going to happen with Arthur Fryer, he may have a plea agreement, he may say he's remorseful and wants a plea deal, and not sure what is going on so tell us about that sense of
Application as well you've gone through the preliminary and was very profound to is. You include in the book that you didn't want to look at him, so you you basically shuffled in there with the biggest defenders. These detectives tell us a little bit about that, because I think this is a profound scene in your book. Well, I you know when I was preparing for the preliminary hearing, which you know. On the one hand, I'd been itching to go to you know for months. As soon as the arrest happened, we waiting and waiting for the extradition, so it seems like forever, but then, when the extradition finally happened boom I had to travel almost right away because by law it had to happen very quickly and I thought, as I was preparing for that, that well I just assumed that,
it is obvious that the most profound thing of that trip, Pitts Burg, was going to be seeing this man again after what was at that twenty two years and you know- and I wondered, will I be frightened, will I be hungry? Will I even recognize and will he recognize me? Well, I see him recog rising me and how will he react to me? Will he you know, will he look? ashamed or will he look agree, or will he you know lyric? yeah. I don't know it was. It was all this. What is it going to be like to see him again and I assumed that was going to be the most important thing that happened anyway? I went to Pittsburgh and I reconnected with the detective who had quest meet me at the hospital who had since retired from the police and was now working at University of Pitts Burg, and he,
He was. He was really wonderful. He had been helping me over email, helping me deal with the current detectives, the information that I wanted about, how the case was going. I got to meet the current detective. I got to meet our prosecutor for the first time, and what happening? Was that after testifying. When I phoned my husband to tell him what that had been like when I email my friends back home to tell them what that had been. Like. I didn't talk about seeing Arthur Fryer. I talked about the detective and the prosecutor and the judge who was chewing gum, the the good guys seemed so
how much more significant interacting with them was so was just. It was such a gift, how much they cared and getting to know them in person and seeing how they took care of me and and what you're describing in court is so in the municipal courthouse. As I said, they don't have witness boxes so instead of you sitting facing out to the audience, is the wrong word, but you know what I mean out to all the people in the courtroom. Instead, you just stand up and face the judge and just talk to him from a standing position. And so when it was my turn to testify. We all stood in a line, and it was me my old detective, my new detective, the prosecutor, the defense attorney,
and Arthur Fryer at the end of that line and the the two detectives and the prosecutor, Walpole Man and the prosecutor specifically and deliberately when he was asking me questions positioned himself to block my view, Arthur Fryer, and that that is the goal. The range meant of Them being so much bigger than him that I literally couldn't even see Arthur Fryer, that that is a perfect metaphor, How I felt coming away from that experience that that the good guys were so much more important in my life than that that person who had done that terrible thing and you talk about
important people. As we talked about you get this information from a really very, very helpful person that you meet via telephone, Name, Mary and. But this is seven hundred and eight seven weeks away from this trial or his formal plea and another person that really helped you was again, we would mentioned April Campbell the person with enough work on her to to occupy her time, but still doing a couple. Cases a year going over and beyond the call of duty, and so she becomes along with bill and with Don Honan and April. These are the people that help to prepare. For this again, I can't even imagine that reputation trepidation, that you are feeling in the seven weeks of something that you anticipated for your entire life. So tell us,
What is the process behind there and what is the risk and what are the things that could go wrong and tell us what is happening just prior to this anticipated trial? Well, you know, the obvious thing is that, of course you want to win the case. You want to get a conviction and you want to get a good sentence. That's that's the obvious goal that everybody shares, but where I differed with the prosecutors and the prosecutors were absolutely wonderful is it was really important to me to be able to tell
and if Arthur Fryer played guilty, then my testimony would not be necessary because it would not be necessary to present evidence to try to prove his guilt because he had already, he would have already acknowledged his guilt. He became this huge stress of you know the case is going so great. The case is going so well. The prosecutor was convinced that. Arthur fryer would plead it. Actually, if you look at statistics, bears that out conviction, statistics, and so he was delivering that to me as good news. Good news, he's, probably going to plead we have a perfect case. He'll, probably plead, then we don't have to worry about a jury's No, the jury has to all agree. One person doesn't like the victim, the jury. It can go wrong it. Unpredictable. Even when you have a great case, and I, on the other hand the say no, no, I don't want
to happen, because I want to testify and part of the reason that testifying was so important to me is that a victim actually has two opportunities to speak in a court case. The first is to testify, and that's when you describe what the person did, you you describe their criminal actions and that's what I wanted to say. The second thing where a victim has the opportunity to speak is in the sentencing phase and that's called a victim impact statement, and I absolutely dread
did the victim impact statement and the reason why I didn't like that is because the victim impact statement, rather than saying rather than talking about what the bad person did right, you're saying how what he did affected you, and I felt like the fact that I had built a good. Afterward, would be taken as minimizing his crime, and I didn't think that was fair. That me having made something out of this that mean having had a great support system that that made what he did less bad, less worthy of
punishment where what I was reading newspaper stories of other rape cases in Pittsburgh and the victim impact statements would be full of. You know My career never recovered my marriage. Fell apart, never had so again, you know all these attempted suicide, all these enormous things, and the feeling I got is that that that was how you that was how you purchased a sentence. You purchased the sentence by proving he ruined your life, and I think that is a terrible price to ask a victim to pay. To have to say, yes, he ruined my life and that's the only way you're going to get a good, strong sentence. I don't want the court case to be about me at all
so I resented the heck out of the victim impact statement and I felt like if he pled that that's all I would be left with, and that that really weighed on me and I honestly thought I felt like that's the worst that could happen and, of course, uh worth happened now You are prepared, for this in your children to a certain degree because they're young, you don't really let them in on it, but they know you're a crime, novelist and you're writing about detective. So you find a way to. Sort of explain this in Europe. Her to leave. Thank and then go to Petsburgh on your own. You go on your own,
and you need to do it on your own. What happens you alluded to something? Worse could happen what does happen and why so, one of the things that surprise me about the case continually, as I was learning about the laws that were affecting my cases, I was trying to learn about fryers history in the in the judicial system is that each state is very different. In their laws were all part of the same country, but the way crimes and sentences are handled
very very much from state to state in each state is its own little kingdom and don't necessarily communicate with each other very well and what ended up happening in our case, literally just three days before I was to fly to testify in court Is that we'll be Neil LAW? That was the crux of our whole case. Okay, precedent was discovered in another state that had been deemed on. And while states have all this power over their own laws, the one thing a state cannot do is be unconstitutional and because a similar law in another state.
I've been deemed unconstitutional. That meant that by president the law that was on which our case was based was also unconstitutional and the case would have to be withdrawn. What this law was it, had to do with the statute of limitations. Now this is a lot like the dna evidence you know People knew about dna evidence from the the late, 80s, early 90s, but statutes of limitations, took much longer to catch up. Statutes of limitations were from you know. He said she said days when there wasn't something concrete
proof like dna evidence, and so I remember following for years how states were trying to account for dna evidence, and there were two ways that seemed to come up over and over again one was no name warrants. That's where some jurisdictions would try. Instead of they didn't have the person to a key do they have the person to charge and arrest? Instead, they would say I charge John DOE, the person with this patch, sort of dna so that they could say? Yes, we did charge this crime within the statute of limitations. Maybe they'll catch him. You know decades later what Pennsylvania did to try to get around the statute of limitations for there old cases that had dna evidence. Was they passed a law, I believe called
something like a dna exception, which is that if you have knew dna evidence that points to a previously unsuspected person, then you have a fresh year on top of that statute of limitations, and that year begins from the time that that DNA match comes in comes to be discovered, and you have a year to charge this person and bring them court and that law had been used successfully several times to bring old rapists to justice in Pittsburgh. Unfortunately, in her case because that law was passed in, I believe, two thousand and four, when our cases were already out of statute of limitations. What
the Supreme Court had decided and as much it breaks my heart. I understand why they felt this was right you know in order to break a law, it has to be a law that exists. When you commit the act right. You can't arrest somebody for a law that you make up after the fact and in the same way the Supreme Court said unless the crime is still within their statute of limitations. When the dna exception law was passed, it cannot be applied so our case? Having already been out of statute of limitations, when the DNA is Ception law was put into put onto the books. We were not eligible to benefit from it, and so the case just evaporated just like that.
Now, despite that, you had already had plans to go to Petsburgh Andrew connect with the detectives and and prepare this trial, so you cancel the trip and stay home. What do you do? I know it turned out to be easier to just do exactly what I had planned to do to go to the airport to get on the plane to get to. Hotel an instead of spending those days in court. I spent those days with the detectives and the prosecutors. One of the prosecutors took me around the core.
House, he took me into the court room. He said this is where you would have sat. This is where I would have sat. This is what I would have stood well, you testified to make sure you look at the jury. This is it in this way, I could have made sure that they could hear you that's what the judge would be. You know they. What what happened was we grieve the case together and that was hugely important, just like with my my drama class, It was about us experiencing a loss together, not just me experiencing a loss and them you know. Looking after me, we were all greased. By what had happened- and we shared that and.
You know it was hard. It was hard coming to grips with that. This was not going to end. The way that I wanted it to end, not least because you know, if you have a conviction and you get a sentence, you can say something like yes, this terrible thing that was done to me. This was worth you know so thirty years of a man's life. That's how bad it was. You know you can it gives it value that you know that somebody else that a bunch of other people have agreed. Yes, this crime was worth that. That's how significant it is and. You know all of that. All of that was lost, but what what I had been pursuing for those two decades that I kept calling the Pittsburgh police was. You know it was
Unfinished business, I knew there was more to be done. We had this evidence kit, it had never been tested. There was more that we could do. Let's do it, let's do it. Let's do it. And even though we didn't get the ending we wanted, all of us had done all that we could and that that was. That was a finish of sorts and just as you know, at the preliminary hearing. But the good guys became more important were revealed to me more important and more significant in my life, then the man Then then, the pad man, that's how I that's high rof to him in my mind for twenty years, but I didn't know his name. I still don't like to say his name. Um. You know in the end, the fact that we all tried We all gave it all that we had, you know, there's no one finished,
this anymore didn't end the way that we wanted, but it is over. We did what we could and you know when when I think of the rape. You know capital, p, capital, r that event in my life. I don't just think of that half hour in my apartment, you know, I think, Gov the nurses in the hospital who are so emotional and so kind and the police in the detect who are so efficient and determined and kind, and the In my class, it expands even farther well it's that whole a year and a half that I finished university and and my friends and my teachers and my family were also kind, and then it goes on to to include this prosecution, and you know, obviously the rate the rate was a taraba,
thing. Obviously, if you just look at that half hour, he just look at what Arthur Fryer did, but if you think of it as something that started with the rape and became a much Larger thing that larger thing is full of good people and so much kindness, and so it's the keep itself is a terrible thing, but the larger thing that it set into motion is full of goodness a ten Submit to you literally again at the sounds like but you moving literally moving forward in your life. Is when I ask you this question and it's
it's in the book as well. This sentiment of just what you had just described it that you had got had gotten a significant cathartic effect from this entire process, regardless that you didn't get what You would initially thought would be the most important thing to get, and so what happens to Arthur Fryer again a testament of you moving forward What happens to Arthur Fryer and what's your reaction, uh, you know he was released from prison, the the Monday after the The weekend that I got the pits burgh and none of us know what he's doing he might have gone home to be with family. Hey might have stayed in Pitts Burg, he might have gone back to New York. I don't I don't, check up on him anymore. I don't.
I don't look online for him anymore. We had our shot in court, we didn't get it and he's doing he's doing and I'm living my lovely life with good people over here. Uh and yes and and again another great benefit of this- is this wonderful book Jane, DOE January, my twenty year, search for truth and justice. I want to. Thank you very much Emily for coming on and talking about this been incredible interview with you so that might want to look at your particular work. Harper Collins, your other, your fictional work and this book. Do you do Facebook, and how can they maybe contact your take? A look at that other work. My website has all of
my information, that's HTTP, colon slash, Slash, www, DOT, emilywinslow dot com. It's got my three novels crime novels set in Cambridge English and it's got all the information about the memoir. I do you can follow me on Facebook. You can find me on twitter? Although I don't tweet very much. Well, I want to thank you Emily. It's been very. Very good of you to come on and talk about this Jane DOE January. Thank you very much and you have a fantastic day. Thank you thanks very much Dan bye. Thank you. Emily.
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-31.