"Sam, could you do me a favor?" Thus begins a story that has now become part of America’s true crime hall of fame. It is a gory, grotesque tale befitting a Stephen King novel. It is also a David and Goliath saga—the story of a young lawyer fresh from the Public Defender’s Office whose first client in private practice turns out to be the worst serial killer in our nation’s history. Sam Amirante had just opened his first law practice when he got a phone call from his friend John Wayne Gacy, a well-known and well-liked community figure. Gacy was upset about what he called “police harassment” and asked Amirante for help. With the police following his every move in connection with the disappearance of a local teenager, Gacy eventually gives a drunken, dramatic, early morning confession—to his new lawyer. Gacy is eventually charged with murder and Amirante suddenly becomes the defense attorney for one of American’s most disturbing serial killers. It is his first case. This is a gripping narrative that reenacts the gruesome killings and the famous trial that shocked a nation. JOHN WAYNE GACY-DEFENDING A MONSTER-Judge Sam Amirante and Danny Broderick
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Maybe You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them. Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, night, stalker, BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the most shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist, Ann Arbor, Dan asking it eating. This is your host dad asking for that program to murder the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors have written about them? Sam? Could you do me a favor
This begins a story that has now become part of America's True Crime Hall of Fame, and now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah. These be the cheetah and learn your animal. Isn't the cheetah but the far less appealing blood fish? come on to add insult to injury. You could have used those fifteen blobfish minutes to switch your motorcycle insurance to Geico Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on motorcycle insurance. It is a gory, grotesque, Taleb, fitting a Stephen King novel is also David and Goliath saga. The story a young lawyer fresh from the public defenders office, whose first client in private practice turns out to be the worst serial killer in America's history. Sam, I'm already has just opened his first law practice when he got a phone call
from his friend John Wayne. Gacy are well known and well, like bigger Gacy was upset about what he called police harassment and asked a majority for help with the police following his every move in connection with the disappearance of a local teenager, Gacy eventually gives a drunken matic early morning. Confession to his new lawyer is eventually. Start with murder. In I'm around, he suddenly becomes the defense attorney for one of America's most disturbing serial killers. It is his first case This is a gripping narrative, the reenacts, the gruesome killings in the famous trial that shocked the nation. The book this evening we were featuring is John Wayne Gacy defending a monster with my special guest judge, SAM Emirati and Danny Broderick. Thank you, gentlemen, for agreeing to be on this program and welcome to true murder. Thank you, Dan thanks Dan hi. Thank you very much. This is going to be a great program for our audience in a big thrill. For me, this is, as always, intrigued me. John Wayne Gacy
he is definitely one of the most to me in characters in history, I would say never mind through crime history. Now, let's get down to the set up here we are talking about Chicago in a little place in Chicago is called the planes. Let's go back to the Nissan Pharmacy, Larian filled, torp business and young boy named Rob peace, and what is John Wayne Gacy just go back to that moment, and what is it first tell us who John Wayne Gacy is just roughly who he is basically in that community. What type of person is he and take us back to that fateful night on December 11th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight? I'll start with their and Darwin Gates. He was a painting, but well a contractor of some with some success. He was, he was always work,
He began his business Pdm contract contracting, which was stood for painting maintenance and what was the other painting reading the eighty eight debating desert decorating amendments and he started to specialise somewhat in doing pharmacies and drugstores Newfound pharmacy was drug store and he had. He went there to bid a job to the torque brothers, who are the owners of drug store. He was also pressing precinct captain in his precinct. He was also on the mission for the lighting district. He was local politician of some notes. He was very good precinct captain he brought in the boats, etc. So he was, he was a clone.
He was also a clown, that's correct and he was very, very well known, he used to have parties at his house that four hundred people block parties and very well like and that believe it or not. And he would have parties at his house that were theme parties year after year. He would have you know four hundred people or thereabouts in attendance. So this is the guy that we, Talking about someone that everybody knew and the mayor knew him or knew who he was here yeah he was. He actually ran the Polish Day parade and not a scary guy, and it was the scariest thing about him. He was not a scary guy yeah. He wasn't intimidating nerve. Ok, you wouldn't scare you as a matter of fact he was. He was
kind of guy that would volunteer for just about anything and everything. If somebody said I need somebody to pick up around here, he'd be the first one with his hand up. So this is the guy and on that night December 11th, one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight. He was in the pharmacy to bid a job for you know some remodeling in the pharmacy. Now they were fringes. Now you might arise with the with the owners Larry and and fill poor. Now, who is rob peace? He was working at the store. Tell us how He may have came more how he did come to come in contact with John Wayne Gay see John Wayne Gacy had come, there had visited and had left, but apparently had left his address book behind. So tell us about that interaction and also about Kim Barnes, because it'll be important Lee a little bit later Robert.
It was a really good kid. He was a hard working kid. He was a good student uh, the athlete the job here and the firms you trying to raise money. Perversely, special you have to get a new car that he wanted and that night was his mother's birthday in his mom came to pick him up at the pharmacy and he ran across in case you run across them in the pharmacy that night, which initially Gacy denied that he ever saw that given the pharmacy. But then he finally admitted it in Amerika a seminar in he told the kid some working out in the end they might be the fit in with his country, aping quotation contracting company. You come and go with me to play for job first adversity the boy was hesitant because his mom was waiting from who's getting out of work, but he he really wanted this new job Gacy problems. They can make more money than I was making at the pharmacy and then basically
for them in the way of his car. He forget, you went out first yeah, he went home, he left and he went home and he forgot his fate would have it. He forgot is this calendar book is diary and affirmatively went back there and when you went back east, the sky, this conversation with peace to be sought through a throwing garbage out in back of the pharmacy in any I do believe your gate. She was the consummate can mean the world, its chief manipulative and he was able to manipulate and con piece then they're getting into his car, and it should truck in his truck. Come back with that right now we would normally wouldn't do that. Then then he did his typical ragged, those type things in peace. Time he could do this, don't do that, then, what a great guy he was and how much peace would like to work for and eventually took him back while Robbie's mother was waiting for him in front of the store. Gacy took piece back to his house, which was probably about one thousand five hundred and twenty minutes.
From the pharmacy and uh. Ultimately, as you read in the book, he he killed Robert Piest after showing him this rope trick and just different things that they see that yeah and the depiction in the book we've gotten some questions about how we could in such a vivid depiction that depiction was given to us by John Wayne Gacy, given this damn during some of the confessions, we also had access to all the statements that he made to the police. We had had access to all the books that have been written and so there's there's some but very little artistic license. We know for a fact that that's what happened when he When they got back to John Wayne Gacy's house there were gay, she talked to me. He was very very specific about what happening he was specif by the conversations about his murder victims, how he killed them. Why kill them and
robbing basically can put them all, because a lot of cases which threaten be there worked from already or he picked him up in a place called account square which his ear. What such whistler's rather train also make some money. Now embody book bribery broken about was the same. It was so engaged. He did a little differently than it was all victims right now they didn't happen now, while the mother is waiting for for the sun. You he disappears. Basically, he disappeared and we can say John Wayne Gacy. The con men talks this kid into going back to his home on the promise of GS want your mother be surprised, and is this to be a nice present, ditch EL the car, because he you something get really knew and was very responsible and wanted to get back and knew how important this this birthday was. Yet he still talk this kid into with the law
other five dollar age rather than two hundred and eighty five, that the kid was making and he played upon that manipulated the kid with that. Now, what happens back at the pharmacy with the mother Ann with Rob Pistes, father and family? Tell us about what happens back at the pharmacy. Meanwhile, with uh, well she waited waiter. While it wouldn't look affirming, he was gone and everybody assumed he had just left and maybe forgot. She was there or something and went home by himself and she went home to get him and he obviously wasn't there and she was it was her birthday. People were waiting, our family was waiting for them and and Robbie never showed up in in because was so unusual. I mean I could never do anything. I did the immediate, immediately contacted Swains place where they live in and when all your record displayed should be that the plan,
what we call it displayed in them and she can take them. It is usually the case with missing teenagers. Please at first, you know said: ok will be home things like that, but they hounded the parents hounded the police. I mean they wouldn't take no for an answer. They wouldn't take he's not criminals. He's is a runaway teenager and they were so. And I don't need them so much and so serious about the kids lack of doing this. In the past If, though, the police really gonna case right away and they went to he Gacy, but again, Gacy was the year. It was a monopoly, he was able to the kind, the police they have made to. What did what John Wayne Gacy say to police when he was questioned about whether he had spoken to rocky storied, whether it seen him and what did the police do shortly afterwards after they had question John Wayne Gacy?
Well, it was, it was actually twenty four hours before they actually went. It was almost to the hour one day later that they went to his house they had questioned him over the telephone next morning. They I worked with the parents all that night and look for him and the parents went out and look for him as well, but then when morning came an officer, I believe his name, Rogers CALL gaze. In the morning gaiety, I was actually in the middle of a meeting. He seemed to get tat the night having ever seen the given. This is after the night that he killed him rob peace was still in the house, so that was in the morning and then later that night about nine hundred o'clock, four
ranking officers from the DIS, Plaines Police Department went two Gesees house. Two stayed outside right because one of gays these employees were happened to be outside happened to arrive at the same time that the police did so they stayed outside with the kid kept him occupied and two went to the door and gaiety invited them in and talk to them as if nothing had happened, and the Erie and grotesque thing that is true is that all the while they are Rob peace was in the attic and he wandered about. Seven bodies were under foot and he talked to them as if nothing had happened now they got a little insistent, and at that point he got a little belligerent. He said the kind of famous words: don't you have any respect for the debt ass he had
were word that his uncle his his mother. His brother had passed away We had to go and see to that. You know funeral arrangements and everything. So he said these words to these officers at a time and after some prolong questioning, they didn't have any other evidence. They didn't have anything else to go on. They left, although they suspected greatly they all left and after that he disposed of the body. You got the data though he was a user businessman, is the a day at the time. They didn't know about his background that he had a here four sodomy ten years before that, and they were beginning the investigation. They only think about a mother and his upstanding members of community, and these people were complaining about, so what they would. He told them, although they suspected he might
I've been lying, the tended to believe him a little bit too. When did when? Did it come at? What point you say they went in question before had checked out his previous record for sodomy in his ten year sentence and the pending court cases that as well and then the other the other case where well was wasn't acquittal war. There was something wrong: the trial, my memory on that one, but when did they look into his background and his criminal record and then further suspect him when everyone on the states, Tories, gonna Bosnia, the investigation became more more heated and they get the states attorney's office. The prosecutors involved than I did. It start looking into is in those criminal background, yeah and as soon as they found out that he had a prior conviction for sodomy they in on him justifiably so, and they were convinced that he had something to do with the disappearance of Rob piece, but they don't know if
was hiding him right. I didn't know if he was dead or or if he was just being hidden, nor what to think at the time. Nobody, but nobody at that time suspect agenda when Gacy of up anything other than his invite his potential involvement with Robbie peace. Now, how did police proceed? Will you say now so once they they looked into his record. That's once Terry Sullivan got involved. The state attorney prosecuting attorney, now tell us what the police did in in terms of these. They didn't have enough evidence for warrant, I'm suspecting. So how did they proceed with this investigation? and how do they gather information and tell us how they proceed? With this case,
I started telling him they put a unit on an Gacy twenty four hours a day. They had two police officers following him everywhere he went watching. We movie made an that's when you went to get. We called me to see me. They were him to come in to give statements He had a lawyer who is a civil lawyer, really do nothing about criminal defense work and he really wasn't helping him too much so gay. She decided to call call me, HU. We knew where I was a chief public tender only in the northwest suburban area and he called me, because they were tailing him so much they just they put a constant tailing him to see what he would do. We He was going and he was actually playing games with them. He would, he would tell him things like uh, clouds could get away with murder and playing little cat mouse games like a lot of these serial killers do and but they were looking for but even though they were tailing and they simply couldn't find anything, he actually invited them into his house.
And here are some promptly used to working across space. Were mostly bodies were and he turned off the sump pump to create a slowly. It turned out the forced air heat and at the time he did that one of the police officer said he smelled when he was in the in the house. He smelled a smell that in his experience. He knew was similar to that of putrefying bodies, and that was one of the basis of the first search warrant that the officer smelled- that's, Casey invited them into the house and actually to me it seemed like he was trying to get caught. They wanted the property just come out and say he did something. Actually, there was another search warrant. There was another search warrant that they did, that they did execute while Gacy was with them, I'm pretty sure, and
that was when the officer smelled that smell and then they got the second search warrant when he was in custody and what did they find in that the first search warrant? They they found something in the garbage and it turned out to be very important at the trial, something there is a receipt. There was a receipt from photos that received was in Robbie. Peace jacket is gruffly. Kimberly mentioned earlier. We have given given her the receipt in when the police are doing the search warrant they found they looked in. A garbage can and found this receipt in. The garbage can yeah Kim Barnes, as an employee at the actually, I don't think they. No EU buyers and buyers, and she she liked rob. He had gotten her own pictures. She took her own pictures in to be developed.
She was wearing Rob's jacket because it was cold up front at the you know where the cash register was because the doors and if you go back there today, that Building is still there that parking lot still there and and its eerie, but it happens to be a nursing, no like a nursery or nurse nursery school and on the doors their own with there were no revolving door. When you open the door that there be a blast of air coming, so she was during Rabbies jacket and she had in a bird. She well actually wasn inadvertent. She put she remembered specifically that she put that ah seat for the photos into the packet, then went, then she forgot about it. She gave the coat back to rob because it was the end of their shift
and rob war. They are called into Geishas House Benazir Bhutto about that later, without as being one of the more important to bits of evidence that trial at least using the prosecution rights keeping yes, yes, now, let's get back to the soul. Now it first so the investigation with Terry Sullivan being involved. They have got a couple police on him, tailing him. John Wayne Gacy knows that he has a tail on him and he basically drives around like a madman through the city, keep playing games and then inviting police in for into his home, like I'm. Maybe an innocent person would certainly you wouldn't think of guilt. Person would be inviting police into the home. Continue with what John Wayne Gacy does an what the prosecution does after this. Well, I'm trying to think
at what stage you're talking about here. They had been telling him for awhile and all for a while. The police are trying to build evidence for a final search warrant. They wanted. They were more and more sure that they were correct, strangled him, any sort of as the other missing curtailed rights associated Gacy. They were coming up with some evidence and statements from people and they found at about his sodomy background, then another key bit of evidence is that one of gay sees employees was driving a car that once was owned by a person who was missing, and so they they put together. Hello, hello, hello, heard something on the line they put together the it's a car was
owned by a kid who had been reported, Miss sing and they they literally went to the Department of motor vehicles and found that the car looked exactly like the car that this kid They found that the two vin numbers were identical, except for one. Or two letters or numbers. Therefore, they were sure that damn this kid was driving the car that was on by this missing kid. So so now they are starting to realize that there may be other kids who are missing, who are linked to Gacy. At that point, they start getting together the evidence sufficient to get a second warrant and they are going to go in that house for sure now all the while well Gacy is being held. Not only does it invite these officers into his house, he goes out, bringing with them
introduces his bodyguards. It was one of the most bizarre situations known to man. He come out to their car in the morning and tell him where he's going, just in case whose him in triumph and then as they did, lose any good at it. Our phones, Baker need get quite a pay phone call. The police station and let the police station where he was, and he he left himself dumb and stupid. They work as they they lost them. Very strange now, with armed with the evidence that they had about other missing kids, the smell one of the officers felt it felt he was sure enough to sign in an affidavit that said that he smelled a smell that was challenged extensively in court by Salmon Bamada, but uh, because the smell,
the smell of rotting bodies is no different than the smell of rotting carcasses of any other animal. That's the one thing that makes that Piece of evidence, not that important, instead of a similar to a good right, all the pc instead about anything and but they did have a keep- that key piece of evidence which was the receipt for the photographs and that put rob piece in their house that at that evidence for the judge, they were saying basically judge. How did this piece of evidence get into his garbage and with that they got the warrant and allowed them to go in in search extensively, and at that point they went down into the crawl space, the first stone she for this all happens. You get involved the sam- and this is this- is your first client in your private practice, says? Is your venturing out here from them from a step of far
years or more in the public defenders office? Tell us about the meeting with John Wayne Casey initially in what he told you and what you believed about the case, and why side to get more, Initially, he came in and just said that he was being tailed and he was being harassed and please rolling his business and he had no idea why anyone- define find out is waiting, I can do about it and I believe them I believe, you're because to me, which is this some standing guy in the community, who was a contractor and a crown of political you talk about a political will, wipe political figure and so I was gonna- find out there and he came to me really. Because I was a lawyer because you want what this he was a Chicago cloud. Kind of guy who is looking for influence For that, I was involved with these displaced police department, because my office and I was chief public defender
was in the same building with them, and I know a lot of those guys. I had tried a lot of cases with them and I knew Terry Sullivan, so I figure I have the inside scoop of what was going on. Try to find out an I simply couldn't find out. I mean I went everywhere trying to find out. I went to Sullivan, I went to the mayor, The town I went to the chief please sit down, they tell me anything. I get a little bit bits and pieces of things here and there, but it really seemed like it was a victim of circumstances. Even when I found out about the sodomy conviction in this case is the wrong place at the wrong time and their targeting him. For some. They didn't do you. That was my feet. When he came and we actually prepared a lawsuit a federal lawsuit against against the police department to restrain them from harassing him, but before the opportunity finally suit suit. It ass a sort of a paragraph from he came into my office late one night after telling me the same
garbage story over and over again, and I started to just think that he just wasn't being frank. He called copy one night and at the same time I, my older son, was in hospital himself. Real fevered even has paralysed for about a week, and I was spending now to the hospital my days working the Gacy case, and I never slept for a few days after he called me in the eye is really aggravated me. He got to the point where he was just just really rotating make the but ass blue copy constantly. He would tell me the same old stuff and I start suspecting that he was lying to me and I set up this polygraph, and we supposed to take it. The next day calls me by one thousand one hundred o'clock at night. He said he want to talk to me meet with me. Had some new things, Tommy and I yelled at him and said it looked China for something and he wanted to be fine. Although I don't hear about it, I don't have the same old crap all the time. I don't want you,
you know come in and just tell me the same thing. It's Christmas time and kids in the hospital like tired. I've been working for days. If it's something though yes, it's something new. I want to tell you. I agree to meet him at my office late at night, but the other lawyer was involved at the time we were Stevens engaged. He was late as usual. That is why I, with him that he comes in talks does Tells me the same old story. He was. The pharmacy. He may have seen the kid you ve anything anything it, though that Burma, I couldn't, take it anymore a newspaper sitting on my conference room table and on the front page newspaper was the picture of taste. I looked at him and I started screaming at him and I start pounding my fist on the table. An ISA Jan look at this picture. This is a good kid. This kid is missing. They think the police think of something though it be strictly Tommy. Tell me the truth, and he looked at me
in case he was not an intimidating guy. He was just a calming liquor, amato, sort of Santa Claus gonna get and he looked at me like a puppy dog, and he said he looked at the rob's picture. He said this boy is dead, he's not the boy that was in the drugstore but he's dead. I said what are you talking about? It was he's in this boys in DIS, Plaines River. He said what now my heart star pounding. I said what are you talking about and he asked me if I had anything to drink and I happen to have some bourbon in my car other active God. As a Christmas present from somebody I ran out, the girl doesn't get me outta your point. Little drink myself, a drink Stevens had regular whenever post. Support for the classic product coffee cups, who's that when he went out to the car, this is an interesting sidelined. When you want the car he saw the poor, the coppers
who were terrorism, freeze, freezing to death because it was winter, I know you guys have real winter. There were you are, but we are pretty good ones here do, and so he invited them into the Reese function area only you know so, but they were inside the office divided bye, a glaring partition, the anatomy we were not in the hallway down in the office, so I put a drink it down the whole coffee cup for whisky and he asked for another one down another chugged, another full cup of whiskey. Then he look dear me eyeball to eyeball. Never forget this like it was just yesterday, and he said SAM I've been the judge, jury in execution of many many people. Now I you want to be my own judge, jury and executioner. I'm going to tell the story from beginning. I want to do things my own way.
I don't want you to rob me and will tell you everything that happened. It's what are you talking about? My heart was like it might throw it at this time, and I said what are you talking about it? He said started in one thousand nine hundred and seventy two. I was driving past the Greyhound bus station downtown Chicago, and for that statement it went out for the day five or six hours. He never stopped. He told me that he had killed thirty four young men the boys gave me names. Why killed? How he killed them. Told me about this thing: called the rope trick really treat them in the pudding. Hank assign them and put a rope around the neck, told me that they were greedy, the damage to create a reason for every one of them, and he knew exactly where everybody was where there were multiple bodies and in a grave. You know approximately when he killed them. Any one of the show me the the cross base and I want to see. If I may I I was just
stay, I was beside myself. I I didn't, return at the time we were Stevenson know which way to turn anyway, and that is this thing for five or six hours and then he fell. Asleep or we could do, is we were screwing around trying to find phone number for psychiatrist to try to even commit it and try to keep off the law enforcement authorities keep her from arresting and give committed, try to put him in a secure environment and we actually set up an appointment with early in the morning. Three fall. Asleep leeway took off any early worry told the police, the shooters tyres are when a year. If we try to leave returned, If I look at it, we could be talking about him. Then I I I Just keep your watch them. You sleeping in my my room across the table from me. A couple hours later. Maybe an hour later, he woke up he started, he has got a rule.
Sounds like a growing. He stood up like a movie frankenstein What kind of open it's gonna put his arms are street and his eyes were, as I lives were fluttering his eyes were set back in his sack its you see the way to his eyes, walking toward me I'm calling single job. We gotta get Goin Frankenstein Walker. I picked up a baseball three enemy, my my conference and I'm holding it in my hand and he's walking to army I'm backing up. I went out the door of the conference room into the ways, library of my my office, which were separated by a glance partition please and they see this happening and I'm walking with his bat my hand backing up in case he gets in the front part of the office there and he stops walking. I push him with the bed with end of the bed and he pushed him down on a couch and he sat down and fell asleep again in
and I put his feet up before next flower hours. So I I was sitting there watching him again reading a book in waiting for Leroy to come back because we're going to try to get Casey to a psychiatrist and then he wakes up. Like nothing happened. He said I have to get outta here. I gotta go ahead things to do places to go. We join. Would we go. We previously caters is not going to see a greater say in what he talk. Emma Jane, You told us everything that happened in those where the cross base, but the show is. She told us this day at about the murders he said provided, but you know what the interesting thing you said it I told you wanna. Do it my way, which made me think you start is manipulation and his cunning and and he was going to just do something crazy and he took off and ran out of my office to jumped in his car and drove about seventy miles an hour on down industry, followed by tomorrow by low wages aperture in any step
in delivered a dagger marijuana to some kinda gas station and smiled at the police took off again. Ultimately, they stopped him. I could do anything at their point. Containing a psychiatrist, stop Stockholm immediately. They waited a while he made some stops along the way he stopped and saw this kid named David CRAM. Who is one of his employees are terrible sidekick of his enemies. Pre eminent created such great all the police that jungle- she told you it always wears. He killed all these people and the police to study was talking because it manner blunder, mafia or something and maybe even think anything of it. He took off again and even We stopped at a for delivery of marijuana right, sorry, you're, according to the police station. Now the reason why some reason why Terry Sullivan finally decided to bust him, for he said he was still a felon
for the marijuana, was that your efforts to get a tea, I wrote emperor restraining order, we're gonna complicate the key I would like coming up without a Thursday for hearing the next day next day and you have to remember day. He was driving down the street. Called Milwaukee Avenue, and there was hum chatter, and there was some concern that he I was heading for cemetery. His father was where his father was buried and they started to believe that possibly he was going to go and try to kill himself and they weren't. They did not want him. To do that, and so they were trying to figure out a reason they still didn't. Have the evidence sufficient to arrest him for murder? Ah soda,
We're trying to figure out a reason, and then somebody remembered hey wait. We just watched him give this kid a bag apart so will arrest them, which is another subject of our emotions. To exclude evidence, suppress evidence because- The police, really have no authority to Russian for that offence where they arrested and they want their own jurisdiction at that time and they were not in hot pursuit. And it was one of the things that we are, which eventually change the law on it. They had his officers fiction, Illinois. But not very, you know, Terry Headaches, because you know Terry, and I are good friends now we're great friends. I saw him this morning and we run excellent tv show together, but at that time Terry, we had a lot of respect for each other, but he was a chief price. He dropped their arms, the chief public defender in ways that constantly lack horns. They never greet everything we constantly like when you were both vicious advocates. Sir, replied: it's your own site, so he knew I was a step
and I was going to go ahead and get that Troni was going to screw up his entire investigation, so he had to do something very had to do something he's a bright guy, sharp lower. He just had to do something now before we get any further into this case, and is this wonderful book that you were talking about right now as well? Is that a big theme in this book is your duty, your obligation and you're willing obligation to defend even this evil dirtbag, this river wild human being regardless, and so, let's spend a little bit of time in the a lot of people that read true. Crime probably are on more on the prosecutors side and many true cry books, maybe is a vast majority of true crime. Books are written from that perspective of the prosecution's perspective, that people are evil and that they deserve to spend the rest of their life in prison and there there is a fair amount of people that probably leaving the the death as well and you
Mention that you're not opposed to the death penalty by principle, tell us what one is that the big theme in this book is and tell us what your position is in terms of the defence. Of everyone, and why you think it's important that you would and do everything you can for your client. Despite being John Wayne Gacy, therefore our constitution and in the states, we have an amendment, the sixth amendment, which was basically written by John Adams. Our second president, who defended the British, show soldiers in the from the thing we call the Boston massacre he stepped forward and said they had, no, old man in a free country should be with no accused. Man should be without counsel, and he was just one person step forward. His his cousin, SAM Adams, was the leader of the Patriots and John Adams took,
because they represent a british soldiers who fired a ban. The young colonist at the time and it basically the the notes that every every boiled takes every president. We have takes every to defend and protect our constitution and to seek a right that a lot of people. Eight four and people exist. You know why do you defriend somebody who did? How do you defend something like that? It's principle we defend a person accused of such a heinous crime. Everybody is judge, grip, settings. We said in the book. Everybody is safe, everybody could get a fair trial. Anybody could get a fair trial,
doesn't matter who they are in our constitution, doesn't always say citizens as persons are protected under the constitution yeah, it's the hard cases, the test that concept. It's like the easy cases, it's very easy to say one. When asked, how can you define a person like I will? First of all, it is a poor there's. A four hundred page answer to that question is called Darwin Gacy defending a monster. That book is the answer to that question. But people say that SAM they say it. They said it often to me when I was practicing and people hate us for doing it. So yeah. That's the strange thing that people don't you know sometimes the people that wave the flag, the hyest are the ones that criticize are you the mouse and they don't understand that the constitution requires that it requires that it there's that otherwise, but you know we would ask you know I would ask, do you know any?
That's ever gonna a you I worthy drunk at the time and the state. The answer to that is well, that's different, because that's not this heinous ugly, terrable satanist stick person. The fact is is that if you don't defend the satanist IC person, eventually people with the DUI's and the traffic tickets and the smaller charges don't get defended either because the concept gets eradicated, it gets eroded and eradicate. You know civilized society, you know, that's that's what we do and you know if tire to handle it. Myself is a dead, and I have two boys and I have a little girl now and I have a stepdaughter and dad. He has two sons and your if anybody the hand and might any of my kids I'd, be the first in line to grab this guy myself to make sure it inc the trial. I'd want agreeable. Might idea, though we might want to torture and everything else in daddy would do the same thing, but we do want to govern
to feel the same way we want to government like a victim like I reckon I put in your life, so you see people still in line, and I tried like I'm the same way when it comes to that you know. I sit on the bench along time too, and, and I had to enforce the laws just for both sides for the state in for the defense, but the. The thing is when you're representing somebody: it's not that person it is that individually representing, but it's the premise of our whole country, it's the basis of our constitution of Cornerstone and that's the way we wrote the prologue in the book, the prologue about the Boston massacre about Johnny Adams, stepping form representing the british soldiers, because that was the right thing to do and he did it at his own expense. He did his own cost. He did it because he believed in those principles, it always fight for it our soldiers, memories and sailors, and everybody now forces. If what for in a free society,
that for centuries, yummy depends on their debts, are we fight for one of them was a marine? I was in the army, we, I don't know what it's like to be to be in position to have to defend and those rights in our judgment about you know you know you may not like your client. I certainly didn't like John Gacy, but just like a doctor who takes the hippocratic oath to preserve and protect life were takes a similar to preserve. Like somebody's individual rights, and we would never expect or even think, that a doctor would treat I guess you might be dying in pompously what I'm dying, because he was like the guy you, because he did something anus a doctor that you would never expect an ethical physician to do something like that. So the same thing lawyer. You would expect, would lawyer to just lay down and die in his client, because he doesn't like the quiet because acquainted something so
and everybody hates the quiet for because a wired like it that there is a professional in is duty bound to follow his own. And that's what we do and we believe in that truly believe that we truly believe in what we do and in that really protects us as a free society. Free peep. Yeah, we don't agree on a lot of things salmon I, but we agree on that. We disagree on many. Many Dan is the old hippie liberal against the death penalty The more the John Mccain Conservative going now. The thing is, the thing is, I think, where some people have a problem, we won't spend too much time on. This was got to get to this incredible trial. The sensational trial and- and your experience throughout this is that the information you got from say well, just just wrote a scenario and and so that I think people can understand your position. If John Gacy were to come to you and leave voice even for those as it is there in his council. If he would occur,
come to you and you only and give you that confession of the thirty three murders we you then do everything in your power to go to court and say that my client is not guilty of the crimes that he is accused of and suppress in, practicality. All that information that he gave you that's exactly what I did I mean he did tell me everything and and we certainly have to come up with a plan. We have to come up with the theory of the fence in his particular case, because he did tell the police are only defense was insanity, but you always a lawyer always puts the state, the government that their burden of proof, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, and if the government prosecutors do not have that evidence that is sufficient to prove somebody guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Then they failed in the defense lawyer doesn't go in there and say his client innocent, but the fact that the government needs that that evidence sufficient to connect those dots to prove somebody go
beyond a reasonable doubt and so the front store. Does that he's like? I don't want to reclaim innocent declaring not guilty. There's a difference between somebody being innocent and somebody being not guilty not guilty, simply means. There is not enough evidence to prove the person guilty beyond reasonable doubt. I think Oj Simpson was a perfect people that in states where were you know, there's no doubt in my mind, is a is a retired judge. As a lawyer, daddy was guilty in all the evidence there prudent guilty, but the system broke down in oh geez case number one because we had it. First of all, our criminal justice system came in disrepute because there was a judge who handled the case initially, who didn't have the courage, in my opinion, that throw out evidence that the judge should have thrown out, because there was a bad search of OJ's house that particular evidence became the
buddy glove which show that the funds were made. A mockery of it made a mockery of the police officer who discovered a bloody you're gonna because was racism in every out figured he went in there. He lied about. Why would in how we went in if the judge initially called the prosecution Please answer how they appeared evidence the OJ trailed there would have taken place, but because it took place the judgment, coal mining. In that it became a media spectacle. The jury called him on it. The jury called him on it and they said you know what state you don't have enough evidence to prove he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. These are twelve people who aren't lawyers who come out of society from different backgrounds, different economic backgrounds, different racial backgrounds. When I picked it up, they come together unanimously and say state. You didn't have enough evidence to prove this guy. You ll be better reason about state you screwed up in its back in their brings our whole system into disrepute. That's why you're falls down. We have another example: the White Corona cases go for you.
It was another serial killer. In that case, his lawyer did did not defend his client properly. He didn't do anything for his client corona killed. Twenty six migrant farmworkers buried him in the fields and his lawyer was more interested in writing a book at the time of the trial defending his client corona was convicted, but you know what, in our appeal system here in the states that conviction twenty six convictions were overturned because the lawyer was incompetent it's way lawyer, there's somebody built and safeguards or system, so we here- have to do the right thing, no matter what our guys accused of no matter what he tells us he did. We enter a plea in if we think a guilty plea could mitigate the sentence. We do that, but if we think the state, what is the fishing evidence to prove our client guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? We have to assert their rights and assert the right of the defendant. They have proof beyond reason without product some because in the states is presumed innocent. Now, frankly, we don't execute crazy people.
So, even if you like in this case, where you admit that the crime occurred and that your client did the act you, the defense of insanity, is that he was incapable of knowing what he did was wrong. He was incapable, at the time of conforming his axe to the and that is another that that is a defense to crime, because you don't execute crazy people, country variable inflated, disputing a child very beneficial to save his life in this particular case threat. Now huh we do. How did you go about? You said the only option left for you was the insanity defense. So obviously you believe you had some. You had some form of case here to prove
that that that he was insane. So how did you go about and what kind of evidence did you use specifically to try to explain to the jury and prove to the jury that he was insane? There are a lot of time. The only thing we needed to do in our patient chief was to raise the issue concerned and then once it's raised, then the state of the burden of proving the defendant is saying beyond a reasonable doubt in the DES initiative insanity is there a person suffering from illness or mental defect and because of their mental illness or mental defect? He cannot oppression, create the criminality of his act or be able to conform his conduct to the requirements, a law, that's the league definition of insanity. It was a legal definition sanity and only the time. So we did is put on psychiatric governance, and we put some late touched me some of the basic victims who testified. He was crazy victims that more
murder chickens were victims of privacy were alive and in that way it will be found and make us to further Gacy was totally crazy in it. Testimony is allowed in our trial system here. So we raise the issue and we put on some psychiatrists. Then the state came back and they put on other psychiatrists to say that he was saying at the time of the offense thirteen in total, but thirteen doctors testified at different times on different issues, most of them psychiatrist or psychologist- very dramatic, very dramatic customer e1. One doktor described the receiving an onion skin personality with it take away layer after layer after layer after Layer Indiana. Which cheese alter ego, digital conscience. He was a psychotic neurotic psychopath would like you, but a hundred and six sixty and sixty five
he was a consummate manipulator, a kind man because reserve psychopathic associated personality and because you know, conscience Yet he was psychotic a borderline psychotic because he suffered from delusions he suffered from play, narcissistic personality disorder. I suffer from hypochondria most Syria. He believed he had sit down. You believe here, these host of medical fiscal illnesses that didn't really exist physiologically. He was a necrophiliac you like to sleep with the dead. I mean he wouldn't leave sexually, but to sleep next to yes, he was a pedophiliac like having sex with children. He was such a complex human being. That is probably one of the most complex human beings. I'd ever imagined meeting in my life for anybody could ever imagine meeting in the scariest thing about this complex person who everybody perceives as a monster and of course he was my client
but the scary thing is the guy was scary it on all those. Almost horrible things are wrong when he was not scary it all. He could be anybody's brother or father, or uncle or or so Georgie boy, you're doktor any. He was just that a scary guy. You would never think he was capable of doing those sort of things he was the classic. He was. Classic Jacqueline hide? He was. He was a check on I'd out of the book when he was good. It was the best of good and when he was Betty was the worst of evil in that evil was taken over the good, more and more and more and more and the man was just incredibly incredibly complex, You use actually the Jekyll and Hyde story to illustrate the insanity or let our joint she was not seen in what I thought interesting was your especially was you're delivery
into the jury. And then the rebuttal John, by Bill Kunkel and He had said that he countered a lot of what you have said. He explained that John Buck, of which one is the threatened, acquit Gacy work and he instead of killing, in front of witnesses. He went out in the middle of the night and brought him back to the home. He said condom. Has he had done many others in the past he was guy, Elinor use cutting and he talked about premeditation instead of a psychotic break and he said- counted what you had said will how could eat food with the cops upstairs and our cop with the police and with the body nearby? and he said well, how does it an uncle said what the coroner eat lunch at these done, an autopsy so bright, its edge
resting volley because you know both of you state. Your case is very eloquently as well as those Terry Sullivan, but basically it was hard for the jury, and they only deliberated for an hour in fifteen minutes gratefully it becomes a brilliant lawyer is an absolute go easy. You judge compromise. He sits on the pensioner cook audio and always it is a great Georgian. It is a tremendous sideways too he's a big man. Other tremendous trust, you're, a wonderful cross, clear, a great example of what prosecutors should be an because the state has the burden of proof he gets. The last word in his last word was left with the jury in his last word was throwing all of the photos of the the boy
Who were killed in the same opening of the cross base? The original real opening in the cross race? That was put right in the middle of the courtroom and he threw the pictures in the crawl space and have surgery to do the same thing that they see that he did all these kids and it left jury spellbound. I mean, after that you could hear a pin drop in the courtroom. People urges just how about closing argument and he did an excellent job. Golly direction, job. Everybody aren't sandy this insanity defence, but I think about their argument. They said Casey was even he knew what he was doing. There's a big difference between guys like Jc, and I don't know if you know, I'm sure you don't know, John Hinckley would try to Your present Reagan Share President Reagan meeting, because he was suffering from obsessive, compulsive disorder. Try new were impressed Jody faster, I think at the time or whether they will and he did it for the whole world. He shot at the president tried to kill him and nothing was going to stop him and that's insanity,
because he could not conformance contacted requirements of law and he was found not guilty of reason and sanity and he'll probably be locked up for the rest of his life same thing with the guy who killed John Lennon yeah people like that, just don't get out of don't get out of that that environment, although everybody's afraid they will, they never do and that's a classic insanity Gacy. On the other hand, and there's something that's going on in our news right now we're going in a Gacy killed people all over the country and they're looking for bodies all over the country which I could tell you is on true and I would be very surprised, They were similar body associated gonna because people we think reindeer house if it truly it was crazy. The way I argued if he truly was crazy, he the care he would have done it anywhere in front of any What are you there was? I think uncles best argument that he was able to control the garden. He was able to confirm his conduct requirements in law. He was able to appreciate the criminality object because he buried his victims because he hid the evidence. So all those things voted against the
the very believable insanity argument that that we gave in the theory of our case, but uncle in his brilliant way was able to to. We got it and- and I think, relief, the state is right. They want many bodies anywhere else because Gacy kill everybody. It is. It is the other thing. What I thought was interesting, who was- and maybe you can tell Us- because this is part of the story that we have left out and I to me This was more evidence of him not being insane in that. Tell us about the ruse, but tell us what happened once a victim got back to John Wayne Gacy. What did he actually do? what the more we talk, how he was wrecked rigour in the handcuffs how'd Hollywood. I thought he was a cloud in these two is sometimes over. The clown out. Finance sometimes do without delay few boozer, maybe smile some. We together have one
important movies, get him in a good mood. Let me say here: I want to show you a trick and they trickle you show is John and show us and he took out his hand. Company would put handcuffs on himself. And go well, they also to be we'd be out of woman. They say how to get to that. His lawyer, you try you give them our support. Think of cider, he put among them in any state, are looking smile and they see what it's a trick on which a trick in that he would take the key out of his hand, open up and say the trick. Is I M the key, and I was able to get out because I have the key. You don't have the key, you're, dumb and stupid. Now try to get out of this. Any would put the rope you'd ever Robin with a rope around their neck. What you called the rope trick, They were struggling to get out of here because he would put the rope around the neck and twist the rope like a turn, a kid with a hammer handle but he didn't say the rope
he would just sit there and watch them die in the EU would carry on with this. Business. He would make phone calls, he would do paperwork while they would be suffering and dying right in front of him, and he had no here no feeling about it at all, it was just it's just unbelievable thing. I could talk to him about children who are dying. In a children's hospital. Cancer and John Gacy would cry like a baby authentic tears that crocodile tears authentically feel compassion for these children. We didn't know we never met and then, in the same breath I could ask him about a victim anymore. Talk about them as if they didn't exist, as if they were garbage that you put on the street that he just didn't didn't have any feeling for it all it never any feeling of remorse. I was hoping that when he was executed, His final lawyers would be able to convince him to apply guys who show some remorse in the
have some respect for the victims in the victims, families that there would be a good way for him to go out. Instead, he was such a con man. He actually convinced the warriors representing him at the end of its case. We forget the death penalty. Then he was innocent is gauge. They give us the only convince them of that. He gave it himself by the time I try to get the death penalty. Nineteen. Eighty four: did he really completely innocent, a committee which lends itself to the fact that he might might just have been crazy. I mean he was crazy. Let's put this way John Wayne Gayle. He was crazy, whether or not he was insane insanity rose to the level of passing the smell test for the law in the state of Illinois? It didn't Jerry did not agree. The dead, but he was a yet even when he's laughing at court. When terrorism,
when confront some trial, and he laughs at in the face of Terry Sullivan is there was some evidence that that is a that's a pretty good, easy gesture, actually, like crazy gestures at the imminent trial did. I was right We were crying tiers of exhaustion, tears of whatever I mean just the ugly. If you like, a balloon with your went out of you I would urge your crime judge, look ripple, brilliant jurist heat, were coming out of his eyes when he was talking about the justice system, that we everything if the jacket The work of her crowded everybody. Our country is safe. If you get a fair trial and engaged, he was ignored He had no emotion, demographic. He asked me to call the prosecutors back to the boy. February was being held. The jail always be now anyway,
gradually? He congratulated Bill concretely congratulated theory, Solomon. He congratulated Bobby Gettin Jim Progress for the great job they did in prosecuting the case, the guy with Justice, crazy he's crazy, but, my dear he said three the level of insanity, as the friend in Illinois. I the jury, said no in all the he has won the way said. No, the jury was right in the thing is it France where's by Madame I did our job to defend all those rights and you go to sleep. Every night know that I did everything I could for that man and protected his rights and justice was served, and you know it's funny, and I know we don't have a lot of time left. But I have to say this: it was the defense counsel. It was. The defense attorney. It was this guy sitting across the room for Maine. That did something ultimately about the fact that you know that kids, when they first went to look for John Wayne Gacy they,
It was the that that got them involved in the case immediately at the time. However, if you reported somebody missing you would they would wait? Forty eight hours, sometimes twenty two hours, because they would assume that the kids were runaways. So often they were, and so this a policy which SAM rode, along years later, one thousand nine hundred and eighty four one thousand nine hundred and eighty four called the I search law and that stopped that policy and the I search law became the precursor to what we now know is the Amber alert right. The controversy Charlie could make ready for it the seventy two hour waiting period that place would routinely use before they start. If runaway missing children, it started local local agencies that special eyes in locating and finding lost, missing runaway children, and it this is a statewide central computer,
is the all information regarding runaways missing. Kids would go into the system and profiles of peace who would be suspects in in print causing. The fact that they were missing in its day came has resulted in a silver lining behind the behind the Kc cloud. As a result, they have law, thousands and thousands of missing children have been we located in the state of Illinois at all over the states. Well, that's great! That's great news, great development. You were recommending at the trial and especially in May the wrap up that did she did. Only Jc should not be put to death that people should study John Wayne Gacy extensively study now for those people that think that when somebody is recommending or advocating or fly waiting for somebody to not receive the death penalty or life, without the possibility of parole that people are suspicious that psychiatry,
then their ultimate wisdom will let a guy like John, we Jc out on the street again to recommit or just let him out without thinking that he didn't get his new punishment. What are you? What are you recommending, ideally with with John Wayne Gacy, ideally that he be kept in a secure environment where he would because every doctor would agree that he was always a danger, if not them after the somebody? I didn't think you would ever been lit out if he was found guilty by reason of insanity. He had been kept in a secure environment. We were told by our own doctors. If he ever were let out of a secure environment, structured environment, he would kill again if Gacy ever got out of jail using to kill again, so we were looking for. Is it keep of any structured environment where he could shut white answered wishes, or maybe we could prevent
future serial killer from doing something like that, I told the jurors there's other people out there like that. If we study him, if we find out what makes him tick, maybe just maybe we could stop it before he had been to get it sure enough to prevent other serial killer mass murders since that time, and I would just hoping and praying that the jury would accept argument in studying. If we could take one kid, we could save one kid by doing it. Why put this guy the death- I mean it- I told him I would join answered them go if we could bring one child back to life again. The goose the joint answer my put case to death, but if we could save one child one child, by keeping my life isn't worth it and that's what I was hoping to do, but obviously it fell on deaf ears, because what you do is bill. Kunkel said John Gacy was the poster boy for the death penalty. If you don't put John Gacy today, who do you put it? That is an interesting now that the Illinois has abolished. The death value is going to abolish the death penalty, has elapsed,
he has about media the Gacy case brought about another war. I guess you're such a fear that he would be found not guilty by reason. Sanity. A law was actually put through the letter. What you're doing the case? There is called don't be, but mainly on which the silken wanted. Dahmer was prosecuted on there in Wisconsin Ryzhkov personally, guilty? You know, and I think it spoke at their help, the male solution, but then they have to be punished to serve their conservation. Really punishments been imposed after their they serve time. Animals which doesn't make any sense to Maine the reason that the laws of the death penalty has been about in the state of Illinois is because they found thirteen people, then on death row who had not committed a crime. Now. Imagine yourself driving down the street one day and you get stopped for a traffic ticket and you happen to look like
someone suddenly you're in the system. You've done nothing wrong, but as the ball starts to roll and people start pointing their finger at you in lineups, etc they find some kind of evidence that links you wrongfully to a crime or the problem with that. That can't be reversed right now, and so, and they you know through DNA, they found thirteen people who did not commit the crime that they were convicted I agree that for governor boasted that families in jail. So yeah yeah it'll do that, but he he didn't. He didn't have enough courage to say no to some of that. Cash right matching is a lot of friends in jail now citizen to worry about any interesting yeah. No, that's the. The reason why I don't believe in the death penalty is because I don't want to have blood on my hands for the.
Let me right it does their killed in our name and, I think, basically, life without the possibility of parole. Unless somebody can tell who has never been in prison that it's cake walk. I think I should suffice. The run. Why shouldn't I was on a bench. I had the opportunity here. Only once I had a death penalty for me in rather a big put a jury out for the deaf hearing, lawyer chose to have that feeling in front of me as a judge and say this young eighteen year olds, life in my hands and he committed a we vicious murder chopped off his victims had desired, spend it wasn't it. The assassination pig murder was so horrible thing. I close, although I am not you know, is you know you and Annie are you know unequivocally opposed to the death penalty? I think you better be damn sure before you send somebody at that, because it is first of all
but this particular kid I felt there was a harsher punishment. The sense of natural life without parole, that's what I did is only eighteen years old. I'll never forget it. I saw appears to. I saw tears down his eye and ask me anything to If you say to me- and I just give me some hope judged, I thought I'm going to give you the same hope that you gave your victim that night on the railroad tracks and soap at all, and so I like them up forever, and you know I think about this kit all the time and it's it's it's uh. What is more, they send me like that. I'd rather be rights. I think if I will look up there, long I'd rather be put to death. So I think the tougher sentence is life imprisonment without Bro and less expensive yeah, it's less expensive to keep somebody alive in the jail there is put in the dock. He was put him in a room and feed him. Instead of pay for all the lawyers and all the armies of lawyers and all the repeated and continuous
appeals that go on which our safeguards and they belong there. So it's actually cheaper to sentence him to life. Incredible. If you find out ten years later, the guy didn't do it, you can fix it. You can't fix it if he's already in the ground, yeah yeah. So this experience for both of you, the John Wayne Gacy defending a monster. How is the press been so far, how's the? How is the what what seems to be the public's interest? Are they still? fascinated with John Wayne Gacy and Anna. They very interested in this book that you're you doing We were really happy because we ve won Amazon that calm and we ve actually been at three or four different number one bestseller list for Amazon for quite awhile under which were happy by legal history, its sub category biggest, american history
which is what we want, but we wanted a classy classy, but it's a difficult subject to write out true crimes, difficult to begin with, and- and we wanted to make sure this was a book that would become a classic it. All indications are now at the end of the year. The books have been flying after shows the bookstore, Indians Bookstores are Barnes and Nobles Amazon that can't kindle look. We ve got great receptions. We read books things all around the immediate area. We've made all the local media, it's still going into media. We run California in Hollywood, that book signing at book soup on Sunset, Blvd, Laguna, each and every sooner vague and everywhere we ve gone. We ve been accepted, interestingly enough in Vegas way we stopped their protest are one of the victim
family members was protesting, Aghasi art show over there and we appeared as speakers, and we actually diffuse the process after they heard us and give our thought. We defuse the protest situation. They realise that their dinner, we get a job to do in the EU. Presenting this book is the character this book is a constitution. Is the criminal justice system Only by busy suddenly doesn't glorify Gacy now and it's been while alibis forgot about it very well. It's been very well. We see that often you hear the site of the defence lawyer in them. Now everywhere we go, we ve got offers were movie, options are by producers and in Hollywood one do big screen movie and Classic Movie filed ram, and I, like the bloody Gore murder me am, I think, but I tried your luggage anguish complaint from trial, except in this case is that fiction. It say
real than the genre of in cold blood or helter skelter. It's the true story, in its riveting story in its fishermen were still were still fine. I came on August first, and we haven't made the New York Times bestseller list which we'd like to do. We've been selling some books up in can no, which were really happy about and what I d give showing up there like come up their visit. You guys and uh things have been been really great were appearing. I was on tv this morning. I was on radio this morning. I'm we're going to be on radio tv again next week, So the media's been absolutely wonderful. Wonderful to us and we really appreciate it and you've got you've got the approval of Terry Sullivan, the author of killer clown, which he wrote the definitive book before this book came out.
So now you have is the definitive book yeah. This is a true story carried I rent movies. Talking about that this morning were kidding around he's. Talking about my booking so yeah, but I have the better book your killer clown, and so we start locking horns again, as we once did as prosecutor defense lawyer, but killer cloud is an excellent book to Antares an excellent lawyer and in a very, very good friend of mine yeah. Harry- gave me an office for a period of time and complete access to his files. You have to realize that you know lawyers don't dislike each other. Just because they go up against each other and uh. It's sort of like playing football or you know I mean that's why, as kids, we played football and play sports so that there can be competition and you don't wind up hating, each uh, and so Terry, not only you know, agrees that this book is a good book. He get. He part
dissipated in some small way in that he gave us access. It is vital, in theory, is regularly respect. In other words, like I said I can t you know Vancouver in the hawks. No, you wanna see them. Players lay down and die against. Each other wants him out there fighting and trying to win for their themes and football players. You don't have respect for a quarterback who has a phony knee injury. The game is supposed the guy who who really your place through Injuries are talking about someone specific, I'm talking about Cutler here in Chicago, and you respect the guy who's. Tough, you respect the guy goes in air flights for his team, and that's where is that? I respect Terry Sullivan and I respect bill Konkel and I respect all the police officers are involved in a Gacy case because they did their job and they did it well and
in turn I like to think that they respect me for doing my job, because I did my job well and that's it's about in. So I respect her and I respect his book. I think killer crown concert great book and in where you know for defending a monster, we're getting great great. It looks kinda compliment each other and we're getting great reviews. All over the country over here and great views out of Canada, those I think we've been getting some great reviews out of Canada. Well, you know, the thing is is that this book is got a completely different perspective, but because of your position as his defense lawyer, the axis that you have the incredible conversations if you have the Gacy confession and just what you were privy to and then not so memoir ask, but just basically who you are and what you were doing in your life at that time, your very first real. How could you get a bigger this? I mean it. This is quite the baptism by
wire to say the least. That's it that's a story in and of itself. That's what makes this such a story. That's what made you grab me. It gets its this amazing story, and it's like a Grisham story right down to the fact that he was a young lawyer who was confronted with this monumental case, then confronted with a confession that hit him like a map rock and then went on to be involved in a case where he is suddenly thrown completely into the limelight than in front of cameras and all that kind of stuff, and so he handled it. So it reads like a Grisham novel, except it's all true story. It sets the record straight. It is the true story and we wanted the truth. No one, and I think this would you me too. I really when you made the point about legal history. I think a lot of people who have it read who who
and had the pleasure of reading. True crimes are, why don't we true crime- and I say well its history, in every are missing history, an important history, because you do go back in time to them feelings and emotions of that time and maybe even perceptions at that time. So it is really historical document in the book looks great. Is it's out in hardcover? It's it's got fantastic, those in it and it serve a fantastic thrill right of a red. So I wanted you, gentlemen, for coming on Judge SAM Body and Danny Broderick a great book, and thank you for a great do an I wish. You guys the best of luck with this and I'm sure you won't have any problem. It has to be turned to a film, and this story will continue fascinating case, fascinating story and fascinating book. Thank you very much. Do thank you. They re able to say for Amazon. Thank you. Much elements have a good evening. Thank you to night goodnight,
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Transcript generated on 2019-12-05.