Justice, equality, accountability. These are the values we need in our leaders to bring us together and be the America. We know we can be Joe Biden and Harris. Are those leaders, Joe Biden, has experienced a fix. Our broken economy he's done it before and you'll. Do it again, and our own Camilla Harris is ready to leave as Senator sheet shape in education, health care and criminal justice reform and with Joe Biden Uncommonly Harris in charge. We know the White House will be accountable to our for four years, our country has been goin back inexperience and corruption, but we have the chance to turn it around with them

I use rooted in our common goals and the leadership of Joe Biden in calm alike errors paid for by black pack and unite the Country W W W that black that content, W W W that unite the country back, which are responsible for the content, has advertising not authorized by any candidate for candidates, commend justice, equality, accountability these but the values we need in our leaders to bring us together and be the America. We know we can be Joe Biden and Harris are those leaders. Joe Biden has experienced a fix, our broken economy, he's done it before and you'll do it again. And our own Camilla Harris is ready to leave as Senator sheet shape in education, health care and criminal justice reform and with Joe Biden Uncommonly Harris in charge. We know the White House will be accountable to our

for four years, our country has been goin back inexperience and corruption, but we have the chance to turn it around with them, I'll use rooted in our common goals and the leadership of Joe Biden, comma lockers paid for by black pack and unite the Country W W W that left, that calm and W W W that unite the country back, which are responsible for the content? Is advertising not authorized by the candidate for candidates. Community law

You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about him. Gaiety, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker BT came every week. Another fascinating offer talking about the more shocking, an infamous killers into crime history through murder, with your host journalist, Ann Arbor Dan. Have you get evening What scarier than a murderer, someone but the charisma compel others to kill for them or to kill themselves, meet these current leaders and get it inside look at their beliefs and how they

controlled others, some called led by it is like Charlie, Manson, Jim Jones and David Garage are notorious, but Those are less well known, such as shook awash Sahara and is doing today, option Rico, who August later the Sarah gas attack on the Tokyo, Subway or Joseph remember, when Luke Drake who founded the order of the solar temple, doomsday called that led to the at the fifty one members by murder or suicide, Then there is Marshall, Apple White leader of Heavens, gate, who alone what thirty eight followers killed themselves in the belief that the hail Bob Comment signalled the arrival of a spaceship. There were transport them a higher plane of existence. What makes coldly you're so compelling as their often unfathomable power over their adherents. Why do people he'll. Others are themselves for a questionable set of beliefs, killer calls.

The stories behind both famous and unfamiliar courts and the people behind them a closet. Teresa profiles. We learn the jaw dropping truth behind some of the most mystifying and deadly calls and their leaders. Oliver lead their followers down a dark path. The book giver featuring this evening is killer, calls stories of charisma, deceit and death with special gas journalists and others. Joys and Stephen Singular welcome back to the programme thank you so much for this interview. I think you having a good so much it's a real. It's always a great pleasure to have you both on talking about this latest book killer cult. Let's this talk loads of what is contained and in this the stories that we mentioned both familiar and not so familiar, can you tell us what some of the chapters are

in this book. Nineteen over them at all. Right. Well, we we start with Keith Veneer, who is become quite well known and notorious with his next him too, that has had emerged in the last decade and had got he's gonna. He gonna trail in New York and been convicted, received a lengthy fountains of that story brought in several celebrity, library. There were one movie, Alison MCA with a tv actress and there were than air to the sea grooms for transfer Brockman showed we made off with that. We go to an obscure, called radical full of aliens. A particularly thought. This was very fascinating because there is a tendency to believe that may be called only dry and uneducated people, people who are worldly people who don't have many resources, but this was a call founded on the Upper West side of Manhattan

in the seventies- and it was filled with very intelligent, very worldly people, people with resources who were drawn end of a year, I d a basically the fundamental idea of how do we make betters human beings basic? way through psychoanalysis, their heavy, and I met and in particular, called even Judy Collins, the singer right, a member for a while. So that's all we found fascinating about, and we had them specifically asked me- be publishing house to specifically put the slovenian right next to the next college that we profiled Magdalena, so Leif a woman called leader in Mexico because, as you said, we found it fascinating from the psychological I view that very well educated breed people with resources from all socio economic groups would going calls and Cuba could be

to be totally on on the opposite side like in Magdalena, Silesian Yorba, Bueno Mexico. In the sixties, these people were very insular isolated in a little mountain town in Mexico, uneducated, very, very poor we found. You know that across the board, people from all walks of life have been pulled into cults throughout the history of the human race apparently, right and it's always what hits the deepest emotional needs. I and a number of the ones that will be talking about. There's there's this idea of improving the human race. That's one of the themes that runs through a lot of it, how to make people better how to do. Issues like racism or poverty, and things like that. So in numerous cases they start out with high ideals, and they certainly don't am that way. The next one is Bagua wrought, rush, niece, fascinating story that unfolded

No. I haven't even eighties and and Oregon origination, spiritual leader guru in India, and he ran into some trouble there and decided to come to the American West and bring his flock with him and start over and again it it appeared. That means they had good motives, at least at one time, but he sort of descended into somebody who wanted to have a hundred rolls Royce London. A million dollar watch all kinds of things and they send out his minions too, produce him really nefarious things like trying to Take over some towns through voting rules by poisoning some of the local populations. Are those people wouldn't be around to vote and that particular story was very well documented in a Netflix documentary called Wild wild country, which I would highly recommend just to see the depths to which these people were. To control their group.

And then others around them and to control the voting block in the towns that they started occupying and again and when they were young woman who is running move. My name, my Sheila vibration, a sort of backed off unjust, lived, the life of splendor or took a vow of silence, but there were several very powerful women who basic he took over this called and then get alot of activities that we're talking about the next one was Joseph demands on sharing. As you mentioned, Damn bay, they decided to recreate the seller tempo in modern times and again, if it did, it started

sort of new ideas, and maybe new idea would actually I'm not started out with some a cult types of stories like based on rose, a crucial and then the Knights Templar. At another aspect, we found very compelling about writing about all these different types of corpses. It'd spanned from offshoots of Christianity, to show TAT it calls, and new age calls and called calls in our eyes in a just. There was no end of that group. Did it. It seemed a prey upon it, infiltrate into all aspects of religious belief, right The next one is one people heard about Jim Jones, the people's Temple again. What I found fascinating about John, that he started out in the midwest that move in Indiana and he was very kind added to civil rights to racial equality too? to relieve some social ideals, and he wanted to do good in the world.

Eventually moved to California and started re, recruiting members to his people's Temple and up the strain that you sort of fine here is that once people start to accumulate power yet said, has a very often has a very corrosive and debilitating effect and with him that certainly true- and I have also found that you know- even though we profiles in these very well known called flight, Jim Jones, in people's Temple and Charles Mansion and branched obedience. I found in doing the research that we were. Can details that I had never really gone deep into a. Maybe you know when you heard the accounts of these crimes, being committed at the time. He mostly, I think most people just saw what was on television or they heard on the media. But, as we have looked closer, it was you stay to find and where we ve always been interested in, where we

religion intersects with violence. I mean three of the books that we worked on have been primary that would the decay serial killer, they doktor tiller, assassination Jennifer Reality, a woman in Colorado Springs. It was called by her lover to kill his wife. Based on that she would be. Given in redeemed. If she just embraced Christianity, we ve found that particular, or in any oh and Bird book writer yeah that what you so so we ve always found that an interesting area to explore and with the young, Jim Jones P the temple. An interesting fact on that one was that the Congress man that went what that was murdered in right, and they all the airstrip in Guyana, when they went down to investigate, based on that, people in his district telling them that their relatives were complaining about the living conditions

Can you remember his name? We are willing to get that well. The interesting thing about I was at his aid was Jackie. Spear who was shot multiple times, and now she does a Congress, one congresswoman from California, and she has spoken publicly about what that was beyond that airstrip when they when they were attacked and an ambushed by the followers of Jim Jones right only around. That was an angel and again it it just shows the power that John had over these people, one of the things that struck me I didn't know before writing this, one that he had three times previous to the actual mass suicide that occurred. Nineteen, seventy eight he had asked his followers, which were about a thousand down there too

drink something and drank a concoction which he said was poison just to see if they would actually drank the thing and it wasn't poison, but every time he ass, they actually went when I hadn't drank it. So he had a pretty good idea that you know that when the time came to actually conduct the mass suicide, they would do that. So again, a lot of these people held high ideals. Alot more were more educated, but they, at this minute profound weakness in its desire to follow a leader who is gonna, give them absolute answer and in many cases a charismatic leader, yeah he was an interesting looking. Man- and I am the soup of Dark well Spoken- spoke like a preacher. You now have the ability to draw people, and we also found that, as a parallel with some of the serial killers that we written about, like John, Having said the man who entombed his victims in fifty five Gowan Beryl drumbeat,

outside of Kansas City. He biggest had an ability to be a real, fast, talker think fast on her feet to know. Had a charm people to disarm people, if I were naming quality of a car, later turned identify one in particular. If somebody who can get people who have never engaged in criminal behaviour, people who would shut criminal behaviour and most circumstances to commit crimes their behest. I mean they have that ability to in case after case they don't actually commit the crimes, but they get timidly and our normal people to do their will, and they also get people to turn over their financial resources and to dissociate themselves with their family the core unit family unit. That's him to be one of the driving principles with

are these caught leaders that we discovered and they also tried basically to take over their sex lives or their sexuality in certain cases? By determining who can sleep with home open Mary home, you know who should have facts and at what time, and in what circumstances coming they go for the most you know animate and vulnerable parts of people, their resources, their family, their sexuality, but then continuing down the worse than the next Persano Listers James, Arthur re. Who was self help guru and he was featured in the book, the secret, which became a huge best seller worldwide and in India. Same thing about him was that we are here counted on both the Ellen Degenerous Show and upper when free course didn't know at the time that you know what he was doing would lead to three peoples: death outside of Sedona Arizona in a native american sweat,

large share. So. He brought people there. It costs a lot of money to go. He him Our problems are trying to put people in extreme circumstances, to see they could endure them, apparently as a way of building there. There after their endurance, and he had these people go into account in Arizona, very hot time that the spaces I can't get up to a hundred and twenty two degrees. People were gasping for air begging to get out and he Vienna essentially said they needed to go and he was conveyed could not on murder, but unless your charges insert couple years, I don't do it yet, but do they use in any got out and now he's trying to reinvent himself a guide, but again these people were not were not unsophisticated at all. You know they were just willing to to do what

He said all right up to the point of causing them their lives. How one of the common threads, though, is that as well as the offering these people this incredible advantage with whatever the philosophy of cultures as well. When you mentioned James up the ravages Heather dimension as well that he had the endorsement, people like Opera, Winfrey, and so with its did it seems that a one the common thread, is that it's easier to attract the liberty and then a lot of that recruiting has done because of the celebrity itself. That's definitely true in this case, Now he he again, he was charismatic. He was good looking here, he was successful. He had the backing of those celebrities. Again people I mean if there's any lesson

care that runs through so many of them. I mean at some point: you have to listen to yourself. You know you can't give away your personal power to somebody who's charismatic once they cross that line into very questionable, even criminal, behavior and again, he had something of a track record of putting people in dangerous circumstances. Ending up in a tragic situation so Yeah I mean you, you have to pick your guru very carefully The next man on the list is a man from Japan. Name shall go Sahara, He was. He grew up in Japan in a small village started showing chinese medicine, but he was eventually rested for peddling take drugs. Then he travelled to bed and Nepal where he claimed that he

if the enlightenment, by studying Buddhism and Hindu ISM you are back to Japan and he formed a group called the arm, Schwinn Rico and I'm opium not mingling that name but where he combined eastern philosophy with apocalyptic teachings, and this is another threat that we ve found. Your many of these calls this apocalyptic end of times using that tactic to scare P, going to say you know this is when the this is, where we're going to send it to Heaven, or this is Winnie, the rapture is going to occur, or this is when the great earthquake in California is going to occur, and that was part of the driving force, as we were leading up to the year two thousand and two to twenty twelve. When the mayan prophecy it went to my calendar supposedly ended, a lot of groups were built up that foundation and that feared the other, especially the end of the millennium, that that's a theme that runs through through much of this yeah and with that should go.

The horror he is the one that his followers and lay still staring nerve, grab nerve gas in the subway in Tokyo and ended with what I counted you seen about him was that he had recruited in very educate, it chemists and engineers and journalists, and I mean people in the legal system Kaliko indications people that worked for that with joy, Maghreb, Edward for IBM in Japan, Toshiba Hitachi other major companies they gave thousands and thousands of dollars. But his own innovation? Now this plan and putting their nerve. Yes in their wish to kill thousands of people. I didn't turn out that way with a much smaller figure, but the plan was for absolute mass destruction, there is probably the biggest was the biggest sort of mass the tantrum, destruction. Events in Japan

at the end of world war. Two and people were very, very shaken by it and besides sexual manipulation, he subjected his followers to sleep in food deprivation, sensory probation hallucinogens, to induce visions? We saw that in other sects and cults could maybe dirty mind control. Sometimes people were allowed to leave the SEC, but only after they had agreed to turn over their property to him and his son that refused just disappeared or died. Yeah. So he were a handful of his followers. I think about six or seven were eventually executed. It took a long time to go through the Japanese,

you go first them, but when I believe I was eight years, the drought, eighty he pretended or actually was insane at that point, the just talk a lot of jubilation the court. I beg you to him by hanging in July of twenty eight may survive. It wasn't legally resolved until very recently show too at the At the same time, it is interesting that at one time, Japan japanese government considered hit hit his this fact a religion, So it's interesting to solve the go from legitimacy to outright being executed. Is interesting to see the way. Also interesting. Well maybe you know maybe pretty stand about that absolute power. You know religious beliefs. Absolutely it did. He went

put somebody's given that much control and that many resources they can they start to get adopted, especially if they had any any bit of sociopath EC or narcissistic site the tendencies to begin with Do you think about sending men are sending people out too, poison, their fellow citizen and people, being willing to do that, just to follow the orders and go and create the circumstances that could have been far worse than they were absolutely Amazing to me that you, his network, jumped like four point: three million to one billion dollar. Six years later he had people throughout the world Russia New York, you know all over Japan. It is incredible that he got. He had that many followers at one time.

And the people I mean them there should then this hunger running through all these stories of people to find somebody. You can give them absolute answers toward really our life mysteries. I mean if, if that's the hook also, I dont have to think for myself. I don't have to solve these problems. In many cases I dont have to earn a living and make money- or maybe I am unable to family life- wasn't that greater. I wanna join up with a better family above a larger purpose. Ride we, someone who retain Reverend Moon Organization, and he didn't displayed in any criminal behaviour, anything that is that, basically what he said looking for a family, and this at that time was the best alternative for him until Rivermouth decided to decided Pickering

would marry, and that was sort of the thing that pushed him out. I really like his quote. He was in there for twelve years and he said I felt myself at loose ends. I had a deep longing for connection for overriding spirituality. I gave myself completely to this extended nuclear family. We wanted to make a better world if I try Didn't God gave myself completely to it. What could go wrong? I the thought that was really a pivotal to put at the very beginning of the book definitely a mindset that ran through much of this attack called was it was in Massachusetts, fall river cover just River called. I gotta run really really interesting as one of the shorter industries in the book, but it was basic Just this group of criminals how did the underbelly of far River, who The gaps in practice got in two

harder, satanic, colder than created what was locally known as the satanic panic, where people were bearing and being mutilated out in the world things like that, but did yeah? We research, the story, wrote the story when you get to the end of a view on. I, for one didn't know exactly what happened, because they were all blame each other for doing this, and some of them extended their original statements, but I believe they are making a movie of that one. I have made it. I believe it might be called satanic panic at right right in terms of criminal. I mean again these these people are involved in criminal behaviour and they wanted to me it's one of the most powerful and compelling an interesting of the entries in they anthology. The next one is, of course, Charles Mass, in which everybody is heard so much about so Worden. What,

Found interesting on that words, some of these little details were we really had to dive deep and I didn't realize I may I was to end I miss. I must have been about seventh grade when that crime occurred and it was sort of the end of the year. Free love, hippies benevolent type of hippy movement. That crime is kind, stop all that and that this darker side emerged, but remember it I had read. You know tuberculosis seminal book on it Helter skelter years ago and gas. But I didn't realize that the group, had not always targeted in the house. They thought was Terry Melter Doors day. Sun who lived in the house, the churn, Paden and were, and Roman Polanski had rented, but they had also had on a death list of celebrities. People like Richard Burton Steve, Mcqueen Tom Jones, Elizabeth Taylor, Frank Sinatra, both

little details that where you re really had to dive deep into the story, I found fascinating yeah the demonic nature of Charles Mass and, I think, really comes through in this peace, and I mean he was somebody who is sort of fits the stand. Profile. The psychopath damage at a very early age excited cast aside in many ways: institutional I gotta in out of prison very, very often any sort of any sort of comes out. Their number of stories in this anthology that that dovetail kind of with the nineteen sixty all that he wanted to right songs and get in the music business sort arrived aware of of all of those things, and he tried to do that, but he kept getting robust in that world is well. You was that talented and he just descends further and further and criminal madness and again preyed on young guess in August,

people that were on the street that we're doin drugs that work disenfranchised those for his target after a lot of not all of these call members, but a lot of them that they would prey on people like that that they could tell were we're. Looking for something are needed, some something larger to belong to right there. One is a fairly well known, one I'll Darfur Constanza who in forward- and I believe in Miami- am in the drug tarried therewith becoming very, very intense. It was the time of which that far yet he sort report, Paolo Escobar's, Ray temperature in Colombia says estimated tomorrow may have been responsible for about five thousand death

this guy's a study that looked at it. He also with his mother. I believe that government to rear witches, the form religion and Al Qaeda video, yeah kind of like voodoo, and so he eventually gravitated into the dread world himself. Recruited people partner up with this young woman name, sir, oh great day- and she is interesting because she was a model student. She was the sixth when she began President ever soccer, booster club and and she'd have received the national collegiate Help physical awarded, but she also had a fascination with the dark arts and black magic, and I came up when she took up with this Constanza and then she devoted myself to his cause, again. This is another interesting aspect of of studying these calls in instances it takes two people too

former other entity that will actually take carry out these types of crimes. Maybe one or the other alone would not have ever done that, but the two together form a different entity, where they can feed off each other and some sort of like gum and Harris Dead, Harrison to kick in Paris and Perry in cold blood? You thought Dick Hickok was the really bad guy with the criminal. Mind in the plans. Perry ends up being being the killer, chemistry in envy awful Constanza case. Only one of the things I found interesting, Rivivi They were, they have property and Mexico where they were doing a lot of drug dealers. And other criminal activities, and they were killing people and chopping them up and bearing them, and all of that, but one an american

young american man with their cross border from taxes in Mexico? for some sort of action, probably and ends up and it was that killing. The American set off the investigation. I mean something Are you fine and other stories as well? When you kill an american citizen or somebody Can the government the FBI, any of that it is up to the anti for an investigation by a lot and that sort of the unleash the authorities honor and on on thorough and that's what brought them down so he was he was later killed or he killed him somewhere from count, but she was sentenced to thirty years in jail, run, run sheet, disorder wiggle out of her responsibility and the case, but it didn't work so yet again of it

fascinating tale that most people don't know that much of the ones in Mexico, like Magdalena Salif and this one I found you ass an eighty I did. I did too that they were thing, The next one is something again: people are probably heard of. Martial apple, widen heavens, gave a ninety ninety seven, again. They thought that they were Their purpose was to really ascend to a higher plane of existence from what we have on Earth Andy. I had talked about this and plan this for a long long time and they took it as a sign that when the Hale Bopp Comet Pass by the earth and- and I believe in the spring of ninety seven- there would be a spaceship behind it in that spaceship. Wood, push them away into this other dimension. So again they were. These were not unsophisticated.

People at all. They were very much ahead of the curve in terms of computer technology and the early work on the internet, and they were in them ninety. They were putting out information about their belief system and what they thought was going to happen in recruiting people to their paws and bringing in money and all of those things they moved to them very wealthy suburb, Southern California, Rancho Santa FE Rachel Saturday and then in April. Of ninety seven. They laid the final plans. Dont should have. The internet is banned, an interesting factor also in some of these costs, because the ability to recruit grew exponentially once they were able to go online and reach vast vast numbers of possible recruiting right That's how they finally decided Cannon April. Ninety seven

to have their last meal. Marie calendars, restaurant. How they all the same thing any all, dressed in the same clothing addresses and closing may put like five dollars in their pocket ideology and thirty five cents for further third could have transit fair to the next place. They were going and and named tipper concoction, win win them some but he came by the house and, of course the smell had gotten very bad. I believe there were thirty nine bodies. Later their dark clothing, with their ten issues on and their veils over their faces and it was a man. I was a shocking, shocking store. I believe president Even talked about it at a national level yeah, he did so again tied into the new millennium coming only three years away. The apocalypse was at hand the another.

Better existence out there somewhere and if you just follow me and take your life will find it extraordinary message that people would be willing to follow my let's just pause for a second for these messages: justice, equality, accountability. These are the values we then our leaders to bring us together and be the America we know we can be justified, CAN Kamala Harris, as are those leaders. Joe Biden has experienced a fix. Our broken economy, he's done it before and you'll. Do it again, and our own Camilla Harris is ready to leave as Senator sheet shape in education, health care and criminal justice reform, and with Joe Biden Uncommonly Harris in charge, we know the White House will be accountable to our. For four years. Our country has been goin back inexperience and corruption, but we have the chance to turn it around with values rooted in our

common goals and the leadership of Joe Biden, com alike, errors paid for by black pack and unite the Country W W W that black fat Content W W W that unite the country. That cuts, which are responsible for the content is advertising not authorized by any candidate for candidates, commend justice, equality, accountability. These are the values we need in our leaders to bring us together and be the America. We know we can be justified, camel hair, as are those leaders. Joe Biden has experienced a fix, our broken economy, he's done it before and you'll do it again, and our own Camilla Harris is ready to leave as Senator sheet shape in education, health care and criminal justice reform and with Joe Biden Uncommonly Harris in charge, we know the White House will be accountable to our.

For four years, our country has been goin back inexperience and corruption, but we have the chance to turn it around with values rooted in our common goals and the leadership of Joe Biden, comma lockers paid for by black pack and unite the Country W W W that black fat Content W W W that unite the country that which are responsible for the content is advertising not authorized by any candidate for candidates commence. Now, Joyce and steal you were talking about Marshall Papa whiten Heavens Gate and talking about Also, it's incredible the things that people will do We talk about the up I'll doubtful Constanza. Any human sacrifice called than what those people were capable of doing ripping out hearts. Other organs and dismemberment. And then the Marshal apple white. He cast

it himself and then convince members other members that they should come. Raise themselves. Well, it's time I get up to Stephen. I were discussing that yesterday and I set out in the research we couldn't find. If, hopefully, Zimbabwe. He went to a medical facility to have that done. I I don't know how one could do that to South Korea because he was unable to stifle his sexual urges Well, he was also deeply can forget about being gay or in any area. This woman has Joyce alluded to earlier. She sort of the two together, you know, began delay these great plans about There are transferred into the next into the next room, but again it sort of took the combination of people to get it off the ground. Right now,. In all these cases do their theirs The combination of things where there is a complex events in sort of like you say that

the turn of the millennium or the oh Bob comment boards Stan unrest in society in the late sixties. That is part of the lure the feeds into the allure anyway. Ryan. And you know what you think about that. Some of those. Gave them in one of the things they are known for his somewhat the disintegration of the nuclear family. I mean people were getting a lot more divorces, kids were growing up when maybe more without two parents, I mean all of that. Slow unravelling of the fabric was going on. You have kids, too in our maybe it loose ends and looking for something I mean there There are examples here: where are you now? People start coffee houses with their religious undertones, start drawing the man again through the music of the sixties, and things like that am

You know I was around the situation like that myself once and I could see how vulnerable people were and how much they were look into a leader evening about that minister in years, not here right with varying in young men, he live man, but then he went to a much more populated area in New Jersey they just outside of New York City, a kind of how well these people and more sophisticated, but they weren't you know they were looking for someone to basically show them the way and again it said that may be redundant, but it to me is just one of these themes of not sort of being willing to take responsibility for your life figure out, who you are find. Your own answers. Take your own steps being willing to sort of for yourself. If the absolute common theme of all of this, if you just hand over that personal power, you know your life will get better. It's a very dubious thought,

I have two very. It was enough for us writing. A book was not Why did we educate ourselves vastly on a lot of these details that we, neither one of us, remember no about, but we do think it's really a good, a good thing to put out there for people to read about so they can see how vulnerable people can be preyed upon. How quick we can descend into something horrendous, out of control spiral totally out of control and putting your trust- into someone and I'll just blindly, like that, nowhere at all saw three of us are very familiar with searching and writing about criminal behaviour a call and this runs through most of this, You know you can believe anything. You want up to a certain point. You can do anything you want, but when you cross outline into criminal behaviour, whatever. That is it. It not only changes dynamic of the cold, but it things and law enforcement

I mean on the rashness case. It was. It was really true, for example, they would go into these tiny towns in Oregon and and they were to make a point of having sex on the launch of these people. Not ass, a fairly a crime, but when you start poisoning their food and people start getting sick and could potentially die and you cross that line into criminal behaviour. That's what brings method brings the ring some of the frustrating things for me anyway. Reading about these people is that some of these people died. Natural death, Sheila the one involved with the bug why Sri Raj niece Group in order she's living in Switzerland right now, Did she did do a little bit of time here in the state, but not very long and David Byrne, we'll talk about a little bit later. He he asked oh, died at ninety two of natural causes and you just earth

its frustrating to see that some of them actually get away with this and furthermore we I gotta them for a long time. Reassuring, yes, tell us about. The Chris Court in the church of euthanasia like a set of very well, I have a very interesting one. He still alive today as well. He was born. He was born a man in nineteen, sixty two New York and would later transform into a giant chance. Gender software developer, Flash musician, Flash DJ with a deep attacks, to the dirtiest movement of it had started. In Europe and nineteen fourteen after the start of world war, one He also is like a multi media artist, electronic music concept art but started it. Church called the church of euthanasia.

And when he was ten, he had read an article in your times about climate change. The deeply impact at him he interpreted to mean that global warming was irreversible. The human race is doomed unless some sort of radical action was taken immediately. So when he in twenty years later, when he formed this church of you the nature. It promoted mass suicide right there there Save the planet, kill yourself when he went to the great extreme of thank him at the human population needed to be Lord significantly, an order for further species, the average ass to survive and the planet. You know to be healthy as well: So some of it seemed like sort of way Theater of the absurd I mean the data were known for serve of embracing absurd chart that an early twentyth century and and some of it was young absurdest theater, but I think the message bind it was. Was

by serious, so track at a certain following me. They would go. They were a big big supporters. Abortion, which were don't be away again of lowering the population. Am I attended a number of events? I fattened did some some absurd pediatrics around all that the church was eventually sued by the parents and children who are considering suicide and then right, Missouri woman was found dead with a printout from the church urge lying next to her so then a prosecutor in Saint Louis Missouri threaten the church with voluntary, manslaughter flatter charges and, and he took down those instructions off of his website- yeah yeah yeah again, it's it's a very bizarre story. I wasn't known to me before we started before me. I wasn't aware of it, so I think people would find it. You know very entertaining just to find out.

The extremes, the riches individual went to make a boy, and I bought. This is interesting about him. The idea for the church of euthanasia came to him in a dream according to his website, where he was fronted by some alien intelligence, known as the beam who spoke to fully and evidence of the earth and other dimensions. I mean you know you, you can't make this stuff up That is still alive and well living in Europe. I believe you he still has a facebook page up again just This is to tell listeners Amin again. This is an anthology. It is not necessarily something with a momentary, beginning Dan Bob you can just dip in and finally very fascinating, stories that are you forty five thousand word entries and they're easy to piano. Two can him so

a different type of project, and we ve ever worked on before I went away narrative rude or right. We purposely interspersed longer what the law the stories about say like Manson, with the shorter ones, just so that it would be easier to read not one. One again is a well known when no the David Crash Grant Brass Dravidian group in the early nineties they had gun. Together on this ranch, the ranch had been there. The branch divisions have been around for some period of time, David, her I showed up again. He was carrying a charismatic. He had natural leadership abilities play guitar, a rock dark look about him the ground. Through this the following and had their own lives there on the branch Dravidian Compound near Waco taxes, this

the complicated story in do the ultimate truth of it is something people have to decide for themselves. But the federal government showed up there and, I believe, is in February nineteen Ninety three- and they were looking into illegal arms on on the branches video ran should ATM said that they had sold weapons. He again shows an inverted semi automatic fire aroused automatic without proper permits, which was one of those of the reasons for going to the compound in the first right. So I wasn't eightieth issue originally there was a t f and there were four age there were initially killed, something many people don't know about a man in gunfire and then the standard started would go from February. Two April, nineteenth on March twelve new attorney general came in the United States, China, Reno and She was

We don't know exactly how well informed she was, but after on twelve April 20th, Twenty nine April find sheen's negotiations went back and forth in the authorities were constantly trying to get caress too stop to stand, let the children go whatever they can negotiate with them, and you

I thought why the interesting part in Europe you see, but one of the interesting aspects of that during the fifty one day stand after I had never heard. Before till I had to do this big dive into the research? Was it the agents had put up spotlights around the property with joy and speakers at broadcast around the clock, different things like tibetan monks, chanting, telephones ringing Christmas carols, the sound of rabbits being killed, Nancy Sinatra, singing these boots are made for walking readily, would tall olive and making it harder and harder for the followers of correct to get any sleep. Not Adele is an interesting tat. Could I packed I had never heard about it's so eventually on that morning, as April 19th, one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, the federal government, made the decision to shoot into the compound and you know try flushing. People out. There were

included in our and our story that you know there were people in the in the religious community. I mean scholars and people with knowledge that TED The government doesn't really understand what perish believes, what these people are doing, and you don't have to push it out to this extreme I mean they have the right to is their religion under the first amendment and so there that argument was made. The government decided to go in what we say cap and is a crash followers set fire, and that caused the conflagration that ended up with. I believe seventy seventy seven people dead, including twenty fight, your well. They actually had a report filed by a man named Dan Worth. It concludes conclusion. Was that the correct followers had actually started right, even though the inner, the FBI and in general

later said that it is possible that some of the work? happens if they shot in, could have ignited something there always will be. That's where you have to make up your own mind, I suppose, and re and January, on the cumbersome later on. They were somewhat of a miracle burn thing. We have but to do over. We might do this differently. The outside that went on for years over congressional investigations and other things. Buddy I mean obviously an overwhelming tragedy. There are the children, all those poor children, the guy on the horrible. And another and another story, we'll get you later. I mean this cloud of Waco is hung over a number of other situations where The federal government does not quite now,

What to do when the when there is a stand, offer people armed they have bombs. Are they gonna blow themselves? Why every tendency and the damage to the government's credibility at that point, at least in some people's eyes, it was had already been done because now there are reports of a growing militia movement spreading across the country and part of what happened in part because of what happened at wake up there, Two years later today, Timothy Mcveigh, went glamour city with his dreadful explosives. Very much making the point that it was the same day just two years later and drawing up the former a building in Oklahoma City and killing a hundred and sixty eight men, women and children. So the repercussions of this have rolled out. I mean crashes seen a sort of her

Did you sure right wing martyr ever so? Why? Because Timothy Mcveigh had studied this white supremacist novel, the Turner Diaries, which was about it? It's a fictional account of a revolutionary named Earl Turner, who blows up a federal building. You know I mean that world that's gonna, get high until later. Another arson across ties some of stores, one is again. I wasn't that well known to me David Bergen, the children of God, and this one released from my point of view. Just seems like somebody who is it criminal and justice. To get into the business of men our salvation and religion. And trying to offer people answers to the impending answers where he found his

little niece there in the counterculture movement in Southern California, in eighteen, sixty eight and he was a game notoriety for incorporating sexuality into his spiritual message in recruitment methods. So you know I was interested to me about him. Was it he hit upon this idea to lure young people who said they were they for his christian message. He opened the coffee shop he brings in rock music. He hands out free, peanut butter sandwiches. You know his timing was good because those Activities were coinciding with the happy Movement in Vienna and the music thing really was one of his inroads guitars an event. Evangelism evangelism work gaining ground at that time, so he capitalized on that on that going communal lifestyle and did. He became began to dress the part it over. Addressed, so that he looked so that young people could relate to him right, but certainly in our example,

As with him, addressing the look like what Jesus we ve been given. If you know what it s accurate or got You know the long hair all of that now too, Very well on people, a and rural Phoenix, the actors, their parents. Were drawn into. This arose Mc Gowan, Andrea down, as well as part of that they were young and they were exposed to some of these ideas and activities. River Phoenix most people, how incredibly promising young actor killed himself in the early to end his early twenties and his brother, came in interviews is talked about thinking that maybe some of this influence you know on him was very bad from a young age, so so again death. Has attached of to discourse David, bearing with very out spoken about

having sex with everybody at all times. That was his idea revolution. That really really really disturbing me, particularly. This call disturbed me the most because they were having sex with young children, and promoting sex with young children, boys and girls, and they He would reach have his followers some of the younger women. He would get go to bars and he used this technique called flirty fishing, where he would go to bars and try to get men at the bar to sleep with them and then recruit them into the group or at least take their money so that they could be financed. Group and now is another called it made. Incredible amounts of money so that he can Spain is why style he lived in seclusion. Apart from his followers who are here, he was a spouse in his humble lifestyle for his fault followers, but he lives in a nice home with a swimming pool.

So he ended up in Europe. I believe joy said away from the legal troubles yeah. Exactly that's how he escaped his legal troubles here in the station died peacefully. Age. Ninety two in the book is a nanny Bob Matthews. I have written about by Matthews, starting about eight hundred and thirty five years ago with the assassination. The torturers in Denver named on bird, but I thought the Matthews and his group. The order were against it is a classic example of a criminal court they headed I studied this book that we referred to earlier called the Turner dietaries riches about my power, revelation that swept across Amerika and gets rid of my minorities, gay people, feminist, liberal judges, etc and math is was bold enough to think. Let's take

novel and use it in an actual blueprint for real activity, but for a start, the fashion, people in and eliminating minorities they they did commit two hundred and forty crimes. They did something in the neighbourhood of four and a half million dollars. They did come to Denver and On bird again. He had recruited among the sort of dispossessed, it working class man Some of them were Vietnam Bertram. They were very disaffected. They were very angry and but they had many of them, had never committed or contemplated criminal behaviour, and he got them that line and a very serious criminal behaviour, so he is considered something he'd him at the end of nineteen. Eighty four he He died in a shoot out with the F B. I would be island, wonder mercy and he

Consider something of a godfather of the right, quite nationalist movements that we see today, They refer to two his activities, his attempt to bring them and the government in a society the crimes that he committed. So here that runs right into the present. If you go on the far right, websites you'll, see that well yeah, so the next. One is again for my purse are not well known. Young man soon filled with it. Providence, again, he ever he was something of a spin off from the Moon Organization, Reunification, Desert station Church, and I and my view reading about him. He again fell into the category

as somebody who is effects, criminal and just sort of used. All of these other tool. Religion on him, pending doom etc. To say. Himself sexually yeah actual He was so eventually happens in case after case. You know. Somebody eventually comes forward and blow the whistle on on these people are civilians, do at her outside the group, as in this case, happened and here the eventually brought down. So story of Orange and the fundamentalist latter Day saints is next to the last entry on the book, many people are probably familiar with foreign just by now, but it's something that we had researched study in two thousand and six

when men become God about the sun came out in two thousand and eight and why we, when we went down, we drove down to the compound on the border of Arizona and you talk Utah called Colorado City where your job and his followers lived, and at the time jobs was on the FBI's ten most wanted list. And it was rather, it was a woman nerve racking driving around that town, because it at that point in time people didn't know if they have the upheld the US, the fundamentalist latter day, saints head stockpiled munitions on the edge of town much wake up the way Community authorities were nervous to go in they didn't if there is going to be a conflagration, are mass suicide or what was going to happen when we were investigating that particular story? What started?

about this story and again whom I thank for these people were isolated and educated, or whatever I found many of the people who had been thrown out of the failed he asked by one just be quite intelligent, choir on form before Jeff. They had all forms of media. They had the internet. He the governor and nearly two thousand, so they had all that technology, but he did things it, To my knowledge, no one else did then the people that we wrote about, such as he would take me and held them, you you send against the church or you send against me. So what you need to do is go away and repent for yourselves go away to Saint George, nearby town or some other town. I don't know your soon stairway until I tell you to come back while they were gone. He were here they they all had multiple wives, I mean they might have twenty wise and forty children. He would take their wives and their children and just

first them among other men who were in his favour just give their kids away. I'm here and every extraordinary to me that these hard working in these bright people want this go along with us until they realise that he was a monstrosity. But I have to make a point here about worn Jeffson felt the s similar to, people that were born into called like Save II, that the children of God, David Byrne, some people are actually born into called. They don't know anything else, until maybe they're old enough to start thinking for themselves or like, as we found in the instances of the warrant judge case, there are always people that are renegades are always people that will chase the bit and pushed back against authoritarianism. And that's what happened in the war Jeff's case, these women stood up against him and When some of the men failed. These women stood up. They went to court

and eventually help bring him down substantially the state of Arizona to investigate him. Now bringing the FBI the women at the Joyce are referring to had been forced into Young marriages- you now remains marriages, and finally, they just carefully they said we're going to fight back many cases in a marriage to men that are quite older than now, where no man is where seventy or eighty see now and there, like, maybe fourteen or sixteen it out. There was eventually bachelor picked up when he was on the FBI. Had most one of the things we went to trial and you time two thousand and seven was convicted on to re, charges are accomplished. Re bet that verdict was overturned, but then the most probably more spectacular. Part of the story is that he had built this here,

toy limestone Temple in Texas started moving all of its people there. When the heat got too much in Arizona Utah and eventually there was a raid on that on compound and they found but he was marrying eleven year olds are twelve year old and the evidence was there and am he went to trial and taxes and got what is essentially a life sentence, so he has been dragged down, has painted permit. There are tendrils of that fact that are still in operation in Canada, in Colorado and other parts of the country. Again they like to move into places that are isolated incident. Where they can hopefully infiltrate the local politics, so they can Heineken have some control in that regard.

And he who still try to leave people from his cell and taxes, but his hold is far less than it once was, and then finally, This is one of the publishing company asked us to do most of them. People on the list, and we are, we offered a few suggestions of our own, but we we really wanted to end with this cult of Columbine, because we thought this is one that current is ongoing and visit young people who have suffered or do you know the shooters and combine case cable the saw them is martyrs, and started emulating them and trying to outdo them or trying to replicate what they did in several schools that they were involved in,

and again the rise of the internet has been. I mean anyone any young person who wants to access. For example, while the tapes that Harrison Creole made leading right up to their crime crimes. Those things are out there. The authorities had a lot of mixed feelings about releasing some of this material, but ultimately they did and other people around the country have studied at an and taken these guys on their role models. We provide number examples of people who are planning to do some sort of Math killing. In some cases it didn't come off because I think the authorities have gotten better at detecting these things and stopping them.

The authorities, but people are beginning to see the warning signs and taking it seriously when their classmates are people they know or making statements on social media or exhibiting some kind of strange behaviour and actually seen something insane. Something thankfully run run. So again it's if this idea you now are you willing to sacrifice your life for either I'm saying or some one that you believe in example after example, in these called people are willing to do that. Interesting in these cases, not that they all share the same characteristics but many of the stories. They share the same kinds of characteristics in terms of how they were lured into these calls and then made to do things like given your property give up secrets to be able to stay in the car. Personal success, peace of mind, supernatural powers,

higher power for people in the cold the credible all these similar characteristics to learn some of these same people, three types of people into these groups. Yes, absolutely and again sterling in you know the end of the second millennium, the arrival of the new millennium. If we all remember the y2k scare me that went through the general population of the computer world is going to crash, you have to stockpile food I mean that was pretty common idea and these people just took it to the next two or three levels. Thank you very much, Joyce and Stephen for coming on and talking about killer cults stories of charisma deceit and death for those I want to check this out or Facebook page. A website tell us, a website is, is W W W Dutch

even singular dot com and Stephen STD P, h e, and as I and II you L a are dot com which we always update, that dance of its people could see when things are coming out or when there's can be television, appearances or in part, castor. Anything. Any developments we always put on the website of great wealth. He very much. It's been an absolute pleasure, killer, cult stories, charisma deceit and death You re my having to stand by like you, Goodnight justice, equality, accountability, These are the values we need in our leaders to bring us together and be the America. We know we can be justified

can Kamala Harris, as are those leaders. Joe Biden has experienced a fix, our broken economy, he's done it before and you'll. Do it again and our own Camilla Harris is ready to leave as Senator sheet shape in education, health care and criminal justice reform and with Joe Biden Uncommonly Harris in charge. We know the White House will be accountable to our. For four years, our country has been goin back inexperience and corruption, but we have the chance to turn it around with values rooted in our. Common goals and the leadership of Joe Biden, com alike errors paid for by black pack and unite the Country W W W that black fat Content W W W that unite the country. That cuts, which are responsible for the content, is advertising not authorized by any candidate for candidates, commend justice, equality, accountability

These are the values we need in our leaders to bring us together and be the America. We know we can be justified. Camel hair. As are those leaders. Joe Biden has experienced a fix, our broken economy, he's done it before and you'll do it again. And our own Camilla Harris is ready to leave as Senator sheet shape in education, health care and criminal justice reform, and with Joe Biden Uncommonly Harris in charge, we know the White House will be accountable to our. For four years our country has been goin back inexperience and corruption, but we have the chance to turn it around with values rooted in our common goals and the leadership of Joe Biden, com alike, errors paid for by black pack and unite the Country W W W that black pact that content W W W that unite the country. That cuts which are responsible for the content, has advertising not authorized by any candidate for candidates, commence