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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky Good Amanda Howard is a best selling true crime, author fiction writer and violent crimes consultant who was written nineteen books over the past fourteen years, including to

and books on a wide range of true crime cases. She is also interviewed some of the world's most heinous serial killers over two decades and his collected a vast pool of information on various types of killers. Though motives and rituals in killer minds. Amanda Howard investigates sixty cases of serial murder from around the world using primary. Resources and the actual words of the serial killers, Amanda reconstructs, both infamous and lesser known crimes, and provides an insight into the minds of serial killers. The book is broken into the following chapters: child killers strangers. We know three thrill killers, killer, kids, poisoner's group killers, black widows and parents who kill the book. The rift featuring this evening is killer minds and insight into the minds of serial killers. With my special guest journalist and author Amanda Howard welcome to the program

Thank you very much for agreeing this interview, Amanda Howard, hi, Dan and Welcome from Australia. Thank you very much for calling all the way from Australia. Thank you very much incredible book. Let's get to a little bit about why this, why you wrote this book, you talk about the purpose in the a new definition, you say a new definition, because the other definitions is far six, one capsule weight varying types of multiple murderers and therefore you want to show that there are many possible sub categories that are more definitive than the all encompassing term. A serial killer tell us a little bit about that. That's right Dan! What we actually have the ease everyone thinks of the serial killer and we think of you,

Gacy in Bondi in all of these big cases, which are actually more of a sub species, all the S, six zero killer, but as as you mentioned my book as you guys into sort of different sorts, because we have a child killers. Now the child killers tend to sort of look at Pacific victim top, obviously, but the white I kill children is often very different to the white that Bundy killed his his victims we go into the nine strangers, and that's these men and and and in case you fit into this category way. They, you know the Hari Functioning, great members of of the community, and everyone knows a minute and a great friends with everybody, but to tell you how but the secret service that gives them a sort of different sort of on the is as well, and then we go into the killer's. What the thrill, the thrill killers who like on

he's a local case he out on that actually killed, because they just want to kill it's not about the sexual element so much about the hunting, so it is as if you kill is that that that go into that category actually, kids again, it is a very different categories that are. Probable it. Actually, I think I didn't write a book, but in this case, but there's a lot of children who go on to kill that tend to be due to an arrested development and so why they kill at such a young age is just a fascinating topic and again they're very different to our sexual killers are poisonous of. Obviously that's about a quick dispatch often, and it's about getting rid of people who are in their way or for the pure joy of it and a couple of other sort of category

we have a hidden killers and, and on my own podcast, we do a lot of of the titular cases, because there's that best nation of that that dynamic that happened between on that the stronger killer on the Wiki killer and how they can interact and function and how these people come together in a type of fixed dome and how they can create a a motorists campaign. That may not happen if they didn't get together and then, of course, we have the courage to kill, which is on very graphic topic, that I'm goes into these parents who you know as as a parent myself. I I understand, but I try to understand how they decide that they would have these babies and just continually kill them. Over years I mean we had uh very best cheating who just died recently, who likely killed. I have heard her nine children and it's just shocking that they that

You can go that far and carry these babies and and just end up deciding that that's what's going to happen within a very few, sometimes hours, sometimes days, sometimes months, but it's it's it's quiet it just it just shows that the serial killer term is far too broad days died. I mean what, when the FBI started day date, they researched out that would looking at people like him, who was very much in this very small sample size, they were all the same age. Most of them were white. They all had pretty much for female victims, and so it was a very concentrated sample. But since that time we've seen him like Derrick Todd. Who are who killed across racial lines and all of this sort of stuff. That sort of breaks down that profile and

I'm sorry, I'm going you've got we talking now dead, I'm so sorry, but it just shows that that we need to sort of go into more depth and and write down that umbrella of the two zero Kayla. He did have a couple issues before we get into some incredible dramatic examples in these categories that you have in this book in the sixty stories that you have featured. You also talk about that. You cite the an author, Stephen Agar in nineteen. Ninety eight did did a re at different classifications for serial killers, and then you say that as well that there needs to be more of a definition. You say a further definition to be able to include all kinds of other killers as you do. What where

there are still some controversy, we've we've seen in the last two years from the definition, I think it's the FBI, this set it from three murders, adjusted down the two murders with that same kind of psychopathology, evident where is there some controversy? But today about serial killing and its definition, and and where do you in this book see a difference? Well, I mean that one of the first thing is that they talk about that they killed the victims in different locations, so instantly Casey doesn't fit. I mean yes, he wrote his last three victims. He dumped because he's call space was was full, but had it not been, for he would have continued to kill it at his own house. So this this there's always exceptions to the rule. So we really need to make sure that we can put it right down these classifications and change it to suit various subspecies of the

we'll kill it, because you know I had cats phobic, who is a child killer here at destroy? It does not fit into the same category as a temp PA we killed how with in in in the nineteen seventies. So we need to sort of break it down, because the the the profiles that we have a very very basic and it we need to sort of create these sub categories. With that we can have the child killers. We can have the killer children, we can have the tandem killers we can have the poison. Is that the black widows all all of these sorts of cases, because the date a current speak together and you know we we expect to just say a serial killer and we think Bundy. But we know

this sort of thing, all market trial and all the cases that that we're going to go into today. So I think it is extra pros falling sections, the each of the different sub sub categories, right down the child killers category and- and we talked about this before hand.

And I thought it was just me losing like I said I my edge a little bit, but you have includes, I can't see you absolutely have to be the worst examples of child killers in the history of the world and as you then, as we explain to the audience, this book is a collection. So you you have held back some of the details, and yet this is incredibly hard to read. Let's talk about Mark Nutro and also just as you mentioned before, the show tell us about the research done to be able to write about MARC Dutroux and what that research meant in terms of.

Up your health, well not to try. I actually wrote a book on a few years ago, called predators and the to try cases, one that I thought all yeah. He killed a couple of kids of all at him in and then once I started researching the case on we now MA to Terry was incarcerated, said it only five victims value, there's a bit of controversy about that, but going into this case what they found was. He was largely as a small fish in a very, very big pond. This massive pedophile ring that was happening in Belgium at the time and I she went all the way to boil tea. Those judges involved police, local, parliamentary member as its it was. It was this massive Rossen underbelly of of belgian and they actually put out a call for the people who believe that the victims of

of this pedophile ring to come forward and give their statements. So what I read during that is some of the most horrific gray, that I have ever I but even imagined it. There is, evidence of young girls have babies and I killed the babies as they born like that. We are talking graphic horrific stuff, I'm including photographs of children in in submissive houses and sexually explicit sm in and all of this sort of horrific stuff that I threw my laptop across the room and stop riding it edge. It sent me to a therapist. I couldn't cope with what I have I just seen and read? I mean we as as as we try to keep a distance, but sometimes the darkness. Getting and I had a young daughter at the time. Shoes should now attain

a, but at the time that there was one picture, this one little girl who looks like her and it just broke me, and I thought why am I doing this? What's going on I've just read the most horrific stuff that these people are evil. There's not worst and then the information that I read that I I had to go see a therapist. I had to stop riding a had to leave the line on the publisher didn't really like that, but they had to had to deal with that bought it was about me realize that on we think that we can keep the distance We we place human and we need to be able to feel that these emotions and they fall victim to these girls that you are now on in the thirties and Audison and what they went through in the torture and what they saw and being passed. Around all of these pedophile groups and and

You know it involved the parents and the grandparents and all of these sort of her receipt date. How that I read that I couldn't put in in the book- it's just it's it's just too horrific arch. It's just sort of created this. This feeling in me that able and then lives, does beyond able, and if it was a tough case to get through. I eventually did return to the book and not to try, then also, if he's in, kill monsters well, but it it's just it's a case that we'll always be up. They with just a few others that created not miss for me, and you know we go to bed and we try and think about the nice things and about our families, but there's some cases that do get in and Mark Control was one of them. I hate to ask questions about that case, aft

that, but I'm not a story of two days that don't go into too much graphic people's. Like I said this is this story to me, as I mentioned to you, is some stories real the our visual and I can really visualize them, because they, are so incredibly movie. Ask in my mind- and that means somewhat, if not almost completely like a horror movie plot and I've seen a lot of horror movies. When I was a kid, so this stuff is of the true murder. True horror, variety: you talk about this. We won't get into his early life. Everybody says they had a horrible things happen to them when they were young, but needless to say, when he was twenty years old, he was married and had a couple of sons and then he was divorced and she claimed horrific spousal violence and sexual abuse of the children. At that point he had an affair with

this, Michelle Marten and it became a second wife. I'm not correct. Do you up yet he he used to have a white band and we talk about. He starts stalking children at swimming centers around Belgium in his White Van who was just to outline the horror of this story and why it, it's. It's so horrific is. Can you tell us who is in company? Who is it who is in company with when he does this and then introduce some of the couple of his friends? That of that he is associate with? We talked. You talked about and alluded to the pedophile ring, but how's it start with these four members. As you said, that is full, so his his wife, shuttle actually becomes part of all of these gang and I'm she was often used as a ruse to get a lot of the girls towards the the van

you know she would do like for calling him a multitude in Canada. I'm asked the directions and in the days that these children are always happy to help, and so I would get them towards the van and I'm in the band was Michelle. I'm going to stuff name, I'm sorry, it's Livi, which is a French. So so that you wouldn't probably do better than, and he was actually a main partner to that row and the two of we do a lot more and there was a few others that helped including a Geico one thing who ended up being a victim of that rose because he was boasting to people in everything until market or actually killed him

sorry he is one of his victims, which sort of confuses that several can attend again because he's chosen victims with a mild, but he did kill one of his companions. It was on other people involved that we're in portion Minister of society, and so they would say grabbed the girls. They will tie them up in the van to sexually assault. Women often dump them, and they did you see he's in using the into they decided to make it a bit more of permanent arrangement and what they did was marketer under one of his homes and he had multiple homes and he was unemployed and people knew that he had all the times and he had all of these construction equipment and big. John excavators. And all this is no one questioned it, which sort of suggested that

people knew what was going on, because I were members of the police and all of these that were involved that I just turned a blind eye and what happened was that he actually I'm a doctor to I you're all girls, so diligent and Melissa Ryszard. I'm sorry about the pronunciation of some of these nine on and he took them back to his his home in the ocean and that we produce videos and all of these sexual assault of these twenty eight year old girls. Now how they actually die was Detroit actually went to jail for car theft and he told his wife to keep them alive and she was too scared to go. Into the dungeon to to save them, and so they ended up stopping today, yeah, it's just absolutely who

what those two little eight year old girls went through, and I read the case file and it's pretty horrific. What the last couple of months of life would like yeah, yet the going on from there they actually the lives and did her actually then arrest on, objected to in my cell and if the lead bricks. Now they were eighteen year old girls, but they Looks a lot younger, and so it was almost an accidental abduction because they want to girls and they were kept for any on very short time and then that would drug them buried alive and they were very besides one stain because he had sort of stuffed up with the deduction of those to go. Also going so it's actually quite shocking, but that they would. For a short time- and then I'm in Oh, I think, was one thousand nine hundred and ninety six to show ended up kids.

Being asked to be in today- and he was a twelve year old girl- and there was a big outcry about that. That was building a doctored and this girl had disappeared and she's actually gone for quite some time and they kept looking for them and place that you've been to to try his house several times to that had had heard children. RON yeah asking for help, but I could never find them because the white is that what you do in this dungeon, which is very much lot lot different location. Austria, a couple of years ago, are on that They don't show within all of the sort of stuff so that I could he, then you did that with it. I didn't find them and didn't keep trying to find insight that they could probably save the first two girls and and then save the others, but thankfully, on the brain, and there was- and now the girl that was abducted on just before that were captured on location Dell has

and they were kept and right repeatedly during the day captives period, but then date that the press and the public can cause such a great outcry. That they knew where to find them, because someone had same date, the speech he what they and when he had a objected to the Tate shot so they able to go and get them within a couple of weeks of her abduction. So the last two goals did survive and buses and spoke at length at at the trial of the chart on who went on with the whole on just a small fish had a follow group, but Sabine, and the technician said that they only who raped by him, and so that way the cal wins and they refused to investigate further. They were was judge that wanted it to go higher and that's where all of the witness testimony come from all these other victims, but he was actually sacked and told to now

look into this and to leave it alone, and so I need to troll and his gang of. Michelle Martin and Michelle LIVE went to prison for these cases. You say to millions of Belgians watched on live tv, the sentencing Yes and then it was a massive outcry. It was called the White Mans they all dressed in White, and had what balloons to choose to sort of represent all of the in of Detro end of the disgusting mess, That was happening in Belgium at the time, because nine being thrown around. As I said, it went into the royal family and there is is one person in the royal family that day night was very important in his pedophile ring, but it's he. Ever going to be charged or in castrated for these, but the Belgians, the belgian people, try to have it changed in fixed and and they did a lot, but it it just come down to

do small group of four people and in ninety three were incarcerated and Michelle. Martin is actually out of prison. Now bot it's not I knew something was happening and that there was too many rooms for that not to be evidence box if it was just shut down. But I mean a lot of the information is online. You can actually look up the ecstasy as an and rage. These transcripts of these interviews with these girls who'd now it thirteen forty what they had experienced as do three four five fifteen year olds, just being her Rific Box, I'm not alone. No. Into it and actually one of the victims who spoke out RIP, Regina Louf people, On on news, programs and current affairs shows, but he

discredit her and just say, honest she's, a crazy crackpot lease didn't happen that didn't happen, but she was able to take people to the places where these things happen, where bones were found and blood splatter was founded everything and they still chose to ignore her case. You talk about some of the outrage with that. Was there outrage, we talk about judicial systems in the US and Canada, Australia, UK different in Belgium was there outrage to the sentence is because you see Michelle Martin didn't do a

the time was released because you have to care for a child, and then this Michelle Nyole, I probably didn't pronounce that property. He was acquitted of all charges, but he did get five years for drug related charges, so he a scape from charges. Essentially, two of this again seemed like a big pedophile group, but only a few people convicted in those sentence is, was there outrage at that leniency at those sent, this is or any of those decisions. Well, there was a little bit, but there was more outrage that did that role was allowed to go to the law library by himself during the trial and after the trial, to look at dealing his case and was able to walk out of prison and a scape for quite a few weeks. I mean this guy was so protected,

that he had such freedoms, and even now he he's actually he's been contacting the families of his victims, claiming that he wants to apologize, hoping that it will let him out of prison. I mean he's only been in prison for about twenty years and he wants out. I mean they, the judge that that was digging into this case. He was sacked purely because he had a dinner with the victims, families and they said on a node. This is instantly conflict of interest. You can't look into this case and then they brought in someone who, just basically just wash the case away until yet market rose He go to prison, go away, everyone else, so I mean everyone knew that that was corruption involved. Even a million people marching in the streets, wasn't enough to to change the outcome or to create enough balls to make them

there there and and to get the real ring leaders involved, because I mean it's still going on and that's the scary part not to try might be imprisoned about Instead of offering is still going on, that is incredible. Let's talk about another, are you do you? Do you sub, like you and you break things down into sub categories and, and you say no strangers versus the unknown, stranger or the stranger, I should say serial killer. Why that? Why that distinct? Difference in terms? Sorry, now, that's ok, because we have these people that

We always led to believe that serial killers are these scary monsters, with a limp and a scar and all of this sort of stuff, but they're actually very much a part of our community. But we have those who take the opportunity to just grab someone off of the street and take them so so there are stranger killings that they're the ones who said the opportunity and take it. Whereas the known strangers, like John Wayne, Gacy and Dean call their members of the community and people actually flocked to them and so to to pick to procure that their victims on both gaitian and call used younger boys to actually entice people to their house, and they would often go a couple of times before they were actually killed. So they got to know their victims and their victims got to know their killer,

for a reading ended up terrifically wrong. Sorry that stud distinction there. Sorry it's about building relationships with the victims. It might just be a few Alice that often Casey will call when I she has people come to their home in that unit, and it's MIKE wait for a while in that watch is old, hi a couple games of pool, so it wasn't about get in the house and attacking and killing them where's. The stranger killings often do that they actually go and grab a victim take them time and that they did pretty quickly, often often sort of a shorter of torture. These nine strange's take that time and they're able to create an environment with a comfortable enough to do the killings being cold used to boys so Brooks and Henley to entice some of the teenage boys to come.

He's harm in Houston and Di Di will play pool for awhile and then get drunk, and you know it can age boys, but I'd be happy to to do that. Coming most teenagers will want to go and get drunk and said: that's what what would happen is is that that would go and and Hadi until they would often white cop hard to Dingell's Torture Board and then that I'd be sodomized. I'd be basin on that be taught kids and didn't that that be killed and buried in a boat should that he taught store it's it's very different to the open kitchen. If you kept close that we have- and this is how the sources of nine strangers like it and coal get up to more on the whole

twenty eight victims and Casey had to thirty three in this is how they do it, because Danko had a local candy business and people knew him and he was part of of of the society He was a veteran and it was, it was just not well would have suspected him. So this is how he was able to get to at least twenty eight victims. Let's see this as an opportunity amounted to stop for a second to hear from our sponsor me: isn't muezzin as a kitchen cookware company that makes high end kitchen necessities for a fraction of the price, just like any job having the right tools can make all the difference and cooking is no different. A solid high end, this is essential for any home chef. The problem until now that your only options were cheap and low quality or something expensive. Until now, my wife and I received our to me and knives a butcher knife and

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into and dive into the story of dean, coral or the candy man Whitehead Lee was actually meant to be a victim. He was, he was recruited by David, Brooks who being enticing victims to call time since the age of twelve. Now family was just a young teenager with when he was brought to the home and he ended up being a better accomplish. That then Brooks was who was starting to get old, so cool begin using Henley as as his, turn on the end into the stick: to get other victims in at least been in prison. Since the late 1960s and he was and seventeen then sorry do the math use his

quite old now, and he has spent his entire adult life in prison as an accomplice no on die. We don't feel sympathy for these people who mid at children old or kill anyone, but I'm you have to wonder if there's something David, it's even at seven saying, I'm Henley was under the under duress from coal and its days as I said that you, you company, said sympathetic, but you have to wonder that he was. Just a pawn in Kohl's game, and you know He has spent all of this time in prison as as an accomplice to a horrific serial killer, and I don't know if a lifelong sentence was was the right sentence in this case IBA,

save that had he not come into cold home, he may never have killed and I don't think he he's a serial killer. He is someone who was just in into that environment, where it was kill or be killed, and on. I don't know it just it. Just messes with my head. A bit and am Brooks is the same. Brooks was think incarcerated to and as far as I'm aware, he still in prison as well, actually are not. He is still in prison, but I there is a twist to to Henley hey in that on one day sixty. I think it was hundred and sixty I female victim was and cold got really really upset by it, because his preference was between age, boys and so Cole, drug them all and hand the white cop tied to the board, like the other victims were, and he sort of combined cold

would let him go and together he he would kill the female victim and call would kill them AL victim that he had bought and they sort of cold late, Henley GO and he pretended to wrap his girlfriend that he bought to the house and then sort of cold taste him about something and and and the two got into a fight and cool, become angry and said to Henley. Will you could? If you like this? Well, you are just going to have to kill me and going anyone going at him and Henley actually grabbed a gun, and shotting called dead. So there's actually there's uh recording out there of of Wayne CALL and his mom and saying I shot dean, and it's it's a weird moment because her her responses is, you know him

I'm. Just run her and said admitted someone and it's not shy. She doesn't know what happen help. What what's going on it's just all night, it's it's actually quite and it it sort of side just to make that change is something wrong was going on, and this was the outcome that she wasn't surprised by so then Henley and Brooks, took the police to the boat shape with Assad, to dig up all of the boys. Sorry and that that

two of them have been in prison ever since and and cold of the face justice because Henley shutting dead. You also talk about with this case again again something out of a twilight zone. This Rhonda Williams, if you were talking about that, was brought here- that precipitated coral being shot by handily, was incidently the girlfriend of a previous victim of dean, Coral Brooks and Henley, or at least Dean Corll Isn't that correct, yeah, that's right, she's, actually, finally being able to not move on from this, but I will check

you speak out about it. She actually wrote a book a few days ago about her experience, because she was there when the serial killer was shot dead by two of the by one of the several killa, and you know a real quick books is protein very quickly after that on it. Yet she was. There was a lot of relationships with a lot of the victims. I mean what we talked in a small geographical area, so a lot of them knew each other, and this all these boys disappearing and the place do with guys he just assume that all run away so now, once or as a spy old that there was an issue going on old, you know it does. It was just too great a coincidence that all these hate age boys a sub not being found, but the investigations would happening. So now the boys run away. We're not going to looks so all of these families still around his boat shed and saw their boys get get pulled out

and twenty eight victims at least what what way was could have the place stop. This from happening way they have to hang the six. Let's look into this in a row because all the last place that those same day cold place, but no one did did that until until Henley shot doing hold it. This is going to continue yeah. The other again Twilight Zone moment is that to further how diligent the police were. Is that Billy Ball Sh Seventeen year Old was killed and less than two years later, his brother, Michael Walsh, is another victim November. Seventy two again what what's the odds of Rhonda Williams connected to a victim and then two brothers in this

Four yeah exactly and you know it even if the place had looked at at the post family, they would realize that these boys had no reason to run away, and it might, we, you know Billy, early. He was early early, seventies acting and you know he's brother was a few years after that, yeah that that there is all of the opportunities that this could have been stopped it just it just continued and my two boys in win one family or just the heartbreak. I filled with those parents. How did people reconcile and then how do you? How do you explain again I've seen a lot of x nations for people participating in things, people normally when they're charged will say that that person, the partner, forced them to do the things that they did.

Usually proven otherwise in court, you talk about these, you know David, Brooks and Henley. Luring these other boys to this to be tied to a torture, rack and we're talking. I won't even get into the details, but incredible torture of these boys. How do you reconcile that these boys would go do that for any, regardless of any motive station north Rhett? How I think that they were under threat? I think that Cole said you know if, if you don't bring a boy this weekend, you'll be strapped to it, I mean CALL Henry, white cops strapped to it and he knew that he had to survive it it it come to a head, but I think you know it die. They brought over that thirty boys in.

So they need what was gonna to happen to these boys, and I mean it's twelve when he first started to type victims. Twelve so I mean you also have after getting about the Why are you letting your twelve euro, Boy hang with this man day after day week after week. I know I don't know, I feel sorry for books in Tinley. But yes, at the same time as you said, they knew what was going to happen. They would they participated in what happen.

And today he helped kill the victim? Sorry, they equally as culpable, but I think that I wouldn't have become so killed themselves. It's just under the guidance of of cold. At this happens. You have so many fascinating cases here, including the dean coral. You include Albert FISH, John Wayne Gacy a Thomas Piper and and Re Kira Marty. You have up again. We talked about the killer. Kids, maybe we can talk about this of particularly sad case this merry and a very odd cases. Well, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your story about Mary Bell.

Mary Bell is currently out in the world. Some way with her daughter should be on not right now in his sixties out. So I know she is one of the the youngest children ever charged with murder, and not only one, but she had two victims now Mary Bell in England in the 1960s strangle two young boys, so there about four years old, but not only did she strangle them, she actually is stabbed the corpses and- and it's two nine into into one of the boys checks. Now this was a bad child bought again we talk about the horrific upbringing and rich how to kill it Han It's been a horrific journey to that point. She had been prostituted by her mother, am she'd been abused by so many people

I'm keeping in and out of of of gold coins and all of this on it when I did it in a very short gray as of two killings, and she actually had a friend helped her with what one of the victims on his system was also Bell, which is quite surprising, but as she was actually slightly older, but it was Mary who was the instigator and she actually but the hey before her 11th birthday. She lowered a fire or boy called Martin and to an abandoned house, and she did this herself and she took the boy there and strangled him and and sort of harms he's cool and then a couple of months later, with the normal bill on a talk with three little boy to salute Weiss Lane and the tools

in sort of attack him and she it's big m across his his stomach and she sort of I mutilated, his genitals and how these hair off and basically just sort. Did a lot of anger harm. So she sort of acted out all of her, probably pent up anger, and and frustration that that she had a point on on these three year old boy and the scary part is- is that when she killed her first feature, The family had eighty a viewing and that I prepare In fact, the funeral and everything in marriage turned up and said, I want to say, he's dead body, just just just as plain as that. You know and then you're in an eleven year old girl plays. You know this is very sad and she did not know now want to see you know she was. She was that so blase about it.

Sorry she she was put in prison for quite some time and she actually escaped when she was about sixteen fell pregnant. She she went through, the waitress had a wild ride, yeah and went back to prison, but in in England like we have he be on, can be held for lot. So why Henley. What have they released under you hi in australian law, I'm so at the age of eighteen and she was released? Given a new and she's been found? A few times over the years, but basically the people who night night she's the way she is and she's being kept life, because I mean it eight. It comes in the culpability of a ten year old girl being responsible for what she done on the inside. Yes, I chaise lives and the homeless lawsuit

sorry on that the case is, it will nine, but it often comes up because of the two ten year old boys who killed the two year old toddler in in the U K in the nineties, which is another big. To happen and both of those boys were released. Also, I think that one of them is now back in prison, said about the fifth time. So it's it's a case. It does come out because of that it makes you wonder what creates a ten year old killer and and it's something that's had a plexi and they quite hard to actually interview get too: I'm actually interviewing a child killer in Australia. He he was eighteen when he begin, and she is the suspected of two other, so I've been actually dealing him for he. So far as I said there, she hot two two four

an interview, but I'm I'm trying to delve into this a bit further to see what creates a child killer. So what child, who killed so absolutely yeah. On the subject of child killers or kids that kill, I should say, children who kill you talk about William Heirens if and we're talking about November 15th, one thousand nine hundred and twenty eight. He was born tell us a little bit about William herons, because I think it's an indication of of or a really good example of stopping people before they become killers and there was all these indications very early on that. If this, this person could have been stopped, so tell us a little bit about William herons and how old was he when he began his killing spree? Well, he was, he was sixteen.

Seventeen with when he started to kill merciful will know him as the lipstick killer, because one of the crime things are written on. The wall was uh for Heaven sakes catch me before I kill more. I cannot control myself, so it's but one of the first cases. I remember- and I think it's purely because of that lipstick, scroll and there's evidence to suggest that he might not have been the killer. There's it's one of those cases that you're your on solid defense, all the other. When I write these cases, I go from the point that people have been incarcerator. Then they've gone through a pales if they're still in prison is such as it is enough evidence to put them there. Now hearing was convicted of three victims, so there was a a female victim sour middle age, most of them around forty, five or so, which is age. So I can say

let's say that and they were stabbed and attacked, but there was sort of- no suspects and it was only that on here and had a criminal record and he was actually captured on the breaking into a home in and had a gun that they believe that he was the killer guy police at at the time. We're looking for several of the suspects, including a female one of the scenes, and we don't know why, but we know that they believe that the second victim was actually killed by saying also it's actually quite strange, but I'm when her and was arrested. They actually kept you awake Sis six days. I refused him through the water and they use that in pencil call on him as well as detectives. Now this is a seventeen year old boy. In a room with all of these police officers. No lawyer and after six days hate he confessed. I think you would have confessed to being Jesus Christ at that point,

and so it's it's actually quite I mean it's. It's quite shocking that this is how he was sentence was based on his own config. And I mean he was Chicago's longest serving prison he'd Try to eighty three in prison, so he was in there for an terrible at math. So don't make me work it out at sixty, argues and and- and you always seems that he had been railroaded by their tactics to confess so he may have been innocent, but he went to jail for the case, and so he had three victims. As I said, they were all stubbed also a basin and day with right that that I did struggle, which would their attacker at which I think might suggest what I thought one the victims killed by a female because there was such a struggle that happened and

I don't think it. A male would grab lipstick as as quickly as a female would choose to write back, but that they'd bring other witnesses that had had seen, in the area and he's been in and out of boys times. Had that point this is the law attack, so he had only people health to the end and taken similar things that that what was taken at these three kill side to side, that sort of

evidence against sorry, it's like high, since it quite interesting and one that I keep coming back to, because I think that we can do you can find more on these. What with the to prove or disprove, he is the chill out that seven saying to id three. He was in prison. That's a very long time. You have examples of thrill killers. Marcel Bravo clause, Guardsmen Richard Mark CAT, Ivan a lot from Australia, famous or infamous Anatoly on all three ankle briefly tell us a little bit about. This serial killer operating in Ukraine. Ok with that, this is a guy that, from about eighty nine to nine thousand six hundred and ninety seven and he killed fifty two victims so very similar to under Chikatilo, who killed sort of

I real longer it of Thomas thing to to like kill for about twenty five years on our part in code. Did the same kill right in only nine or ten years, so here's his first killings were ten victims, so he an accomplice, his Emma's Ruggles and went into a family's house on, were robbing the place family came Hime and rather than trying to help this guy pull over get away. I'm on a printer Messi kid the end. I felt really sorry lot. They take Hey stocks with with with a massive killing, and I was in the next couple of years. He would do this. Hey would go into their hind, and he would breaking still what he could and then kill the entire family. Often he would to do that first and then rob the place, the off It was the other way around that he would tie them all up and make them watch him sort of defy

all the homes and then once they were dead, he would burn the house either grounds out. So we had a very distinct signature to what he did and it. You do this over and he got sick of using complex and things up, just just going it alone, and he would kill Matthew families. You know: hey we're going kill family for family of ten of family of eight- and he would do this over and over and over again and burn the place is down so not only was easy. Ocala and a burglar. He was all so uhm an arsonist. So he's one of these he was who just enjoyed what he did did the fur I'm just kept doing it over and over and over again until hey, he was finally captured on and I'll be free with. When you have such a distinct passion, police were able to

to quickly link them all together in music. If it was the work of the serial killer on and off, did that to buckle up that you could see like cat. What would I believe that that that the Ukraine and Russia don't have serial killers? Because that's a US thing, they were able to quickly link all of that together believe it I had a serial killer and so on. A pre encode was actually court quite quickly, but after a massive counter, fifty two victims in another case where he wouldn't have been stopped other than again just luck in terms of his uncle evicting him and then finding a cache of weapons and then calling police if his uncle had.

Chinese at death full with much worse with absolutely. He would have kept going yeah with a lot of these serial killers, it's about how they get caught, and it's often asleep up like that. I mean it's obvious what he was doing and they would have probably been a geographical passion, but they get slow because the thrill is like a drug and they keep going and keep going, and I need more and more and more that they s guide. To such a point, I mean he was killing once a month towards the end.

And and escalate helplessly pop in and what he did that yeah, you have a clue, H, H, Holmes in as poisonous, why? Why is included in with poison there's I'm will he even want to use gas to to kill some of his victims and and some of the victims that we know is that he killed with poisons now he was working as a pharmacist, so that made it very easy for him to get any sort of poison that he wanted. Sorry oftentimes with poisonous they're able to get away with it for a very long time, and they often dispatch of the victims quite quickly die. Some do you do do it I'll be using these needs as slowly taking?

entire families out but unharmed he's he's almost a standalone case, because he is so different and you know it he he he bent down his castle in Chicago. And he had used a lots of different methods of killing and and there was some financial gain when he killed Benjamin paid and is evidence to suggest that there wasn't sexual elements of some of his victims spot. He he's just a case that he is, it was almost. Where can I put him because he can fit in so many different cases on mean. You could also consider him a mass killer, because his victims could

in in in in the hundreds. As far as where way, right now, with this collection, you, we talked before hand that there is plans for a a volume to win in volume two, but what would be covered in that new edition? I have to go look at some. I know it Actually, I cannibals in that I know volume. Three is almost going to be in Holly, Essex, so at TED, Bundy's and the like, but in the next I think I've got my medical killers as well. So when you look at how Harold Shipman and a couple of cases like that so AL nurses who kill the Colin in cases involving

This is on the web weight loss in in in Canada, which is just come through. So it's it's going to be just just that next section of killers that don't fit under that umbrella, they will keep as easily as as we'd like them to survive. On about eight different categories, in that I would have to look it up approves I haven't looked at it for a couple of weeks or so I've been working on some other projects. But yeah. I know that the first chapter is is cannibal them, I'm opening with Dama, which is probably people, say he probably didn't eat a lot of his victims, but I mean those papers in the fridge for a reason.

Sorry, sorry he's he's he's. Definitely the opening saying absolutely yes, yes, this is an incredible. I don't know what to call it a collection but an incredible look at serial killing and this and the way you categorize this and the and the dramatic examples. And again I can't even imagine you having to hold some of the stuff that you held back with some of the stories like mark your trolling dean, coral, and we left a lot of those details out for the reader to discover because again hard to hard to read hard to read the incredible evil that these people perpetrated on their victims and when you see other children and put into servitude with this

evil person, it's just again it it's visual to me yeah the images that were created with this book. So I want to thank you very much Amanda for coming on and talking about killer mines. You mentioned earlier, and I forgot to mention you also are a podcaster, so why don't you talk about your podcasts and how people might be able to find it, and also, if you have a website for your books or four of what personal website? Let us know about that. Okay, well, my put classes could monsters humid sits. There will come a confession. We just done SS two seasons. Basically, I use a lot of my first hand experience with a lot of these killers, so I use their own words recordings information in letters and all of that sort of stuff. So it's so basically the words of the killers, and then I breakdown not so much the killings themselves, but the motivations and the psychology behind it. So that's monster to murder.

We also have a month's who murdered dot com website as well. Amanda, DOT, com, dot, AU website, which is sadly out of date, because I'm busy people can also find me on twitter at Amanda how seventy three and Facebook, and in Gram and all of those are you. Just imagine how it all throw something like that. I'm pretty easy to find an I'm often on this, so I'm in lots of Facebook groups, I'm in dance group and all these sorts of places, so I'm around and and I'm happy to talk to people about these cases. So this is what I do. They call me the serial killer whisperer, because I seem to get some information, that is some killers that no one else does I've had a couple of marriage proposals over the these and a few things like that,

since some very interesting gifts that I do talk about on on the podcast. Sorry, please come and find me absolutely going to check that out. Absolutely thank you very much. Amanda Howard for coming on and talking about the killer, mine's an insight into the minds of serial killers. It certainly has been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Amanda Howard. You have a great evening and hope to talk to you again real soon, thanks Dan. Thank you. Goodnight six.

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