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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers in true crime, history and the authors that have written about them: Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week. Another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan Zupansky good evening, when you think of serial killers throughout, three, the names that come to mind or ones like Jack, the Ripper John Wayne Gacy and TED Bundy. But what about Tilly Kilmac, Moulay Hassan Kate, Bender, the narrow,

we're comfortable with is the one where women are the victims of violent crime, not the perpetrators. In fact, serial killers are thought to be so. Universally overwhelmingly male that in ninety ninety eight FBI profile. Roy Hazelwood, infamously declared in a homicide conference. There are no female serial killers, ladykillers, based on the pop online series that appeared on Jezebel and the hairpin disputes that claim and offers fourteen gruesome examples as evidence, the largely forgotten by history female serial killer, such as is a Bathory. Ninety dos Mary Ann cotton, and Aaron Icula Vina Saltykova rival, their male counterparts in cunning, cruelty and appetite for destruction. Each chapter explores the crimes in history.

A different subject and then proceeds to unpack her legacy and her portrayal in the media, as well as the stereotypes and sexist cliches? then inevitably surround her the first book to examine female serial killers through a feminist lens, with a witty and dryly humorous tone. Ladykillers did This is easy explanations. She was hormonal. She did it for love, a man made her. Do it entire tropes. She was a female foot, offend. They tell a black widow a which delving into the complex reality. A female aggression and predation featuring fourteen illustrations from Dame Darcy Lady Killers is a blood curdling, insightful and irresistible journey into the heart of darkness. The book they were featuring this evening as lady killers deadly women throughout history,

With my special guest journalist and author Tori tell for welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing this interview. Tori Telfer, hi Thang So much for having me. Thank you so much. This really is quite io opening we more than alluded it to it in the introduction. I want to ask a little bit about 'cause. We put it in the introduction about Jezebel and the hairpin the online series and how this was based on the popular online series and where you dispute the claim that there are no female serial killers. So tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to this writing ladykillers and tell us a little bit about Jezebel in the hairpin, and this. Idea that you wanted to spell in this book, lady killers sure well, I before I started writing about female serial killers. I was just kind of start

bring out as a freelance writer after doing work. Being publishing and doing some time in an Mfa, and I really want the column. In my mind, that was like the coolest thing ever so when I saw that this website called the all was looking for historical call. I racked my brain to think would be fun to write about, and I thought of female serial killers because I've always liked creepy, history. I've always liked weird history and I've. With like sort of deranged individuals that history has overlooked. So I pitched the idea to the all and they shot it over to their sister site, the hairpin and that's where it started and I was really pleased how much people liked it. I think you know As you probably know, women love true crime, and absolutely I just just had all these

Amazing readers who, who real I enjoyed reading about these killer women and then the reason it ended up on Juggalos because my editor at the hair can move to just about. So she took her home with her, which is nice and I only ever did four installments of those and then I started working on the book, but all of those columns are in the book, but in a more uh dated format with new research, and I think so, charter conclusions, so it was a fun process. Absolutely so, came to write lady killers and tell us the criteria for inclusion in this. What you were looking for, what was the sort of breath of variety that you were going to display in this book? Tell us some of the criteria for stories that were included in this book

I'm so glad you asked that, because I thought long and hard about it, and no one ever asked me that so I had many criteria in my head. I only wanted to do quote unquote: vintage serial killers, because I wanted to keep it have a spooky book rather than at oh man This world we live in is so depressing book. So stop it. I stopped in the nineteen fifties. You know the world is very different back then serial killers in the fifties just. Just feel different than Aileen Wuornos or so so I had that. I also tried to make it as diverse as possible in terms of Time period, country of origin instead of killing class, you know serial killers. Both Male and female are very white, but I manage

find a little diversity there, and so I was kind of looking at when I had my women when I had some of the women I would have to like whatever else I wanted to include had to sort of fit into the ones that are already in there. If that makes sense, sure, and then I just I also just kind of looked for ones that just made me excited and intrigued me, and that's really. You know you just sort of know when you come across, A serial killer that you want to learn more about that kind of a personal criteria that I can't really articulate, but just all the women in this book. There is just something about their stories that I was like ooh, that's, she sounds complicated or something. So I think that was all you also.

Hello really go out of your way to find stories, while not only that had a huge myth and the mythology grew you and the story as they often do grows and a lot of misinformation comes from that. So there's a lot of myths and then the spelling of the mists this book is in there, so there's a lot of really what we thought was a story is not the story and what that's going to be illustrated in the first story. Talk about with this is a bit bathory. What we get to that is there some other theme like when you talk about in one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight, you know the famous profiler Roy Hazelwood, declaring that

There are no female serial killers and you say what we can find fourteen there's a little bit more discussed in this book. Then you just happen to find fourteen female serial killers. So respond to that statement I have and compared to what Roy Hazelwood said in nineteen ninety eight and what you found. Oh, I found way more than fourteen female serial killers. I think what Roy Hazelwood was saying, I mean, People use that quote all the time to to show that he was wrong, so I do feel sort of bad for him, I think what he was saying is. I think he was thinking of serial killing. In a more narrow sense. Like you know, the serial killer, who kind of stocks rapes violently, kills strangers

there are. I mean aside from Aileen Wuornos there. There really aren't too many women who kill like that, but all that serial killing is is you know, I would say I think the FBI says to killing three or more people with a cooling off period in between. So just because women are poi. Sending people and less, maybe not, as quote unquote, scary, doesn't mean they're, not a serial killer. I mean you poison, three people with a cooling off period in between your Totale, a serial killer, and so I think that's why people you know have thoughts

there haven't been any historically. Does that answer your question? Yes, certainly now, let's talk about the first subject here, and this is the one where you talk about- that eight black metal bands there's been movies, there's been so many things and there's such a mythology about earth. Avett Bathory. You dispel some of the myths, but let's go go back to what you knew about her because you say: she's been memorialized sexualized an vaporised since records of her trial were discovered in the 1720s and you say: she's the Grande Dame a serial killers, so talk about, she was born in one thousand five hundred and sixty talk about her life. Some of the things that shaped her talk about, as you do but the peasants an you talk about at some point where they have even less rights than they did when we open this story. So tell us a little bit about as you do

about her early life and the society that she was born into and was surrounded by great sure so earth with that battery was born into a very, very wealthy, very noble hungarian family in one thousand five hundred and sixty she was a lucky girl in a way she was highly as kated. Just given the best of everything, but she had issues of young chow child, and you know we can speculate. We don't really know exactly what they were. Some people think that her parents might have been cozens, so she might have had some sort of. I don't know, noble illness that happens in that way. Some people there are rumors, that she had epileptic fits. Of course. None of these are things that turns

and into a serial killer, but she also seems to have a penchant for violence. It was a violent time back then and she would have seen a lot of violence. You probably would have seen the public executions there's a rumor that she saw a peasant who had been accused of stealing she saw him being sown alive and should be belly of a horse which is almost first for the horse and she laughed and tackled. You have to be really careful with these things, because it's like it's sort of hindsight, is twenty thousand twenty with serial killers type of thing like how do we know she actually tackled diabolically when she saw this peasant being stone into the belly of a horse. Do we just think that? Because we know about her later crime, but there are a lot of there's a lot of rumors and folk

more about her early life as kind of troubled and violent, but also very privileged and wealthy. So. She got engaged when she was four know when she was ten she had engaged in. She is ten to a fifteen year old son of another incredibly wealthy family. So they were like this superstar match. And there's a rumor that, while they were engaged or Sabet, took a lover, this peasant boy and became pregnant by him in the peasant boy got caught and got thrown to the wolves by her fiance to that's all oh, very violent, stuff and, as you'll see it's starting to get kind of sexual, so anyway, her fiance was named fairing, not not. Does the I'm not not Amy's name out loud, just writing them so

he was a violent man himself. He was sort of Korra dear warrior and he was constantly going off to battle. So that- them, didn't see each other very much during their. In their whole marriage. It took them ten years to have their first child, which was really unusual for the time. You know that wasn't that wasn't what a wife was supposed to do and I hate to keep saying rumor says. But a lot of this is rumor rumor? Has it that her husband, Frank was would learn torture and just sort of terrible crew things when he was away at war and would come back and teach these things to his wife, who also who was developing a sadistic streak. So He would. He would teach her how to torture. Her sir ring girl that he would teach her very creative punishments where he would

over a girl with hunting and force her to stand outside naked and just get stung by bees and bugs. He also apparently gave her this romantic gift of a glove with closet hatched that she could wear an just splash at her servants if the mood struck. So I think we kind of had this is two sociopath who happened to get married to each other and encouraged each other, and it was for their way of bonding because they didn't often see each other um and while all this is happening there getting incredibly wealthy, because fairing is going off and he's fighting. Let's see, I think, he's fighting the ottomans and so he's like sending back these streams of treasure, Baxter ourselves,

and it turns out that they get so wealthy that the king of Hungary actually have to borrow from them. So there not only rich but they're sort of in this very powerful political position where the king is in their debt. So you can sort of imagine how that could go to the head of someone. Who's already got some socio pathic narcissistic tendencies you talk about. He is called because of his great valor and his ability to always be in war at war. He was called the black knight. You say that no matter what, if some of this stuff is exaggerated, you don't get that name the black knight for nothing, comfortable as well was that there was an nun payable like would not only did they, borrow money to the king over and over again, it wasn't unplayable debt when the black knight finally died in one thousand six hundred and four But you talk about, there was some people that moved into the house.

And a double yeah. They also had this. You talk about and again this is some of the stuff that this is why this woman is so infamous talk about a torture chamber, in this castle that he has given her his wife- Then she has this this distant door hola. So then, also what we haven't explained is: how is it that the you know the time is that the peasants are so dispensable? What is it d, as explained in the book, the status of the peasant enables this person not only to be able to do whatever they want, but literally do whatever they want, no matter what happens so explain that as you do in the book. Yes, so that is, I forgot about that. That's an important thing, so hungarian peasant back, then they just they just, had no right, nobles had all the rights, so a noble could do do whatever they wanted to their their service,

and it wasn't just that blah I would look the other way. It was just totally fine because the peasants were the property of the nobles and you can do whatever you want. Your property said the law so or Sabet had all these servant girls. She had several castles, you can imagine, the huge staff that it would take to run all those places and she had all these servant. Girls and she had this one castle input circular that was given to her as a wedding gift. Now the torture chambers, I don't think started until her husband, died, and she was in her forties, but the violence was definitely wearing before then and yeah before her husband died. She had this this kind of. I don't know what to call her. This cream, be friends. Slash present woman move in named Anna Darvulia and the logo,

all of the town really didn't like her. They described her as a wild beast in female form and she was the bad influence on the bat and she moved into the castle and the servant. The servant started seeing auras best personality start to change. And then her husband died. Should I move on to that time in her life. Certainly- and you also talk about as well- that there's a not only were the parents finding and knowing that their their present daughters, that something was going on at the castle after castle with Bathory, but also that a local pastor had enough got to confront her. And you say that the dusky, the Dasty had enough influence the common at that time. But it was well known what was going on

It seemed at this castle. Yes, yeah that the rumors were flying and people were being right now in sight, like girls, with marks on their faces girls with black and group black and blue bodies. Just these terror fide abused girls coming in and out of our so that's passel. So yes, a local pastor at one point actually his goal and the bravery to pull her aside and just remember how powerful she was and how little power local pastor would have, and he just kind of said like listen, you got it. This isn't right, you know, you can't, you have to say, doing this like this, isn't right in the eyes of God, She got really angry and just hit at him that you know she was powerful. She was untouchable. He couldn't do anything and yeah

husband did manage. While he was alive to kind of watch those rumors and keeping things under control uhm, but that all ended when he died. Uh in sixty, you know for when are Sabet was forty four years old and uh it was one thing that is getting really. Oh, go ahead, no go ahead. I was just going to say: that's one thing started getting Terrible terrible awful awful for her servant, girls and that's when you know the rumor the in the confessions that servants who helped her torture in the combat, and that they gave at the end of their life. They say that this is like a real changing. In her personality- and you know, maybe it was that her husband, was gone and she suddenly had all this pressure completely on

your shoulders to manage all these states manage all these people. You know, may She was mentally crack king in some way and then there's also speculation that she would be getting older and wanted to stay young forever. I mean that is mostly just rumors but in fact another thing to Toronto pot. What do you would you write about is that she had assembled over will torture squad with this Alana Joe, a woman named darker, wash woman named cattle,

and and some young boy then sits, go and double yeah. So what torture did they specifically like you talk about the mess and what people think they know, and we talk about the blood baths and and her wedding for you. But what did you find out? Because again, this is public with us was records that surfaced in the seventeen twenties. Like you say, these people testified So tell us what these servants said about the kind of torture and the things that they did do in reality to these women sure so yeah she had these trusted servants who would help her torch and these were not these women definitely enjoyed it.

To. These are not servants who she was necessarily forcing to do this I mean I'm sure she is forcing them to some extent, but they got the sadistic pleasure from the torture. An what they confess to years later was that Earth Avett was very creative and her torture. So if someone was snowing and made a spelling mistake, she would start by maybe smashing their needle and shoving it into girls hand, and then she would say that it hurts the horseshoe and pluck it out, and then the girl pluck it out and are so that would come at her with shears or something and cut her fingers did. She would play these mind games with her girls and do these quoting

what little things for them to hurt them compared to what happened later. But a lot of what went on in these torture chambers was truly torture to the point of death. She would beat and beat and beat them all. I heard for sure squad would help. They would beat the girls with irons, they would burn them. There's there was testimony that they would use pinchers to rip out. Chunks of flesh they would lash them just allow lot of brutalizing the body to the point where wasn't recognisable a lot of bloodshed, and it was just like an obsession for her so that she couldn't she she would get very anxious after socializing and she would need to come home and torture or one of her servant. One of the torture squad servant said she couldn't eat or,

think until she had seen one of her maids killed in a bloody way, so very scary, stuff. Yeah you talk in the book that it gets so bad that everybody knows. What's going on and she's, throwing the bodies to the wolves. And the peasant women in the town are hiding their daughters, because when she comes in town looking for workers, so in her again somewhat madness, certainly she has this gymnasium plan where people don't care about the the peasants and then there's the nobles, but she still, regardless of that, decides to create this gymnasium. So tell us about this him and what her plan is and this is the beginning of the downfall with this idea. Yes so, the gymnasium is her. The world's worst startup idea basically

You said she's running out of girls to kill she's running out of peasants to kill, so she decides. Huh the last well. I could get some of the daughters of my noble friend, but of course, she's gonna have to come up with a sneaky plan to get them both daughters, noblemen aren't just gonna, let their daughters go wherever so she should tell the room and she's opening the finishing, school. It was called a gymnasium, and you know she lures the these young mobile women in and she's promising that she's gonna, I don't know, teach them good posture and which forks you use and how to sit up straight or whatever and she hasn't really thought out, the plan passed that she didn't the plan. Clearly doomed, because you know the wall might not protect peasants, but the lawsuit. Only protects nobles and noble parents certainly have resources that peasant parents did

so she doesn't bother plan through she's just got this bloodlust happening, so she ushers these young, noble girls in kill them all and then she's sort of like whoops, the Para I'm glad they're wondering where their daughters went. I've got a I've got thrown off the fence, so you can. Polish is really cracking because she, comes up with this elaborate story where she says: okay, here's what happened the girl still every jewelry, because she was really shoes really jealous about it and or sorry that's not it's even worse. It wasn't that the girl stole the jewelry is that the girls- One of the girls was jealous of everyone's jewelry, and so she murdered everyone else. 'cause she couldn't have their jewels. She was so jet and then she was so sad that she murdered everyone that she herself committed for the pair, here the story in there like that, definitely

to happen. We have a mad woman on our hands it you can just imagine hearing some. You know trembling pale, based hungarian countess telling you that story and how terrified he would be so that wasn't exactly what led to legal action being taken against her, but that didn't help like you said her downfall was starting. You talk about how this man named Thurzo has the authority to look into it as it comes to his attention, but he happens to be in the

asked these best friend. So he has to proceed very cautiously and respectfully about three, his friend's wife. So he what he does. He writes a letter to about three sun on how to proceed. So what is very telling, as you read the book, what is Bathory son say about her guilt or innocence and how to process, and how does he choose to proceed? How does he suggested they that Thurs all proceeds. The one says the sun doesn't protest. The sun doesn't say anything like how dare you bring these outrageous accusations against their mother? It's actually her son in law. He just the family members, the children, they just say. Listen. You can investigate her. You can do what you need to do.

Don't bring her to trial. We don't want a public spectacle, we don't want her standing up there and Ranting on about the girl and the murder suicide, you know we just we don't want to be shamed so yeah, the son in law, literally wrote public punishment would shame all and, as I say, I think that's telling because to me it says that they suspected or they knew 'cause. They were they weren't flustered. They were almost resigned to this idea that she was going to get caught and they just Didn'T- want to be embarrassed. Pretty damning. I think you talk about the the four at thirty the victims. The king had heard that there was three hundred tell us a little bit about this trial and tell us about watt.

The public at this trial or what was she depicted as so the trial, so what happened was or so that was Never you know to stand or whatever, but her torture squad of four was and they were tortured and they were confessions or extracted and then Then they weren't the only ones all in all. Three hundred and six people testified against her. This wasn't necessarily that they got up on the stand and testified, but then Thursday, who you mentioned earlier, who is sort of leading the charge against her? He, I guess you can call it due diligence, fifth, one thousand eight hundred style. He went around and collected all the evidence he could before bringing an accusation against her. So three hundred and six people gave evidence so, but as we touch on earlier. The most absolutely the most damning. Testimony came

her torture squad and they were the ones who are saying you know: she's tearing out chunks of flesh she's beating these girls until they're bought bloody bodies burst she I am so hard that she herself was covered in blood, she's, torturing them ten times a day. This is all coming out of her surance mouth. It's very damning and. Yeah there's. No, there was no. Number of dead girls that was ever really officially decided upon. The rumors were flying one young, witness that there were six hundred and then the accomplices of the door squad did put it lower around thirty to fifty still huge number of victims for a serial killer, so so that what happened on the witness stand, and then, let's be three of the torch, squad were executed and then. Then one woman cartoon,

and who had always been a more soft hearted and always some more locked and she was thrown into jail. And then then what happened to Earth Avett was She was never taken to trial, as was promised, or her son and son in law, but she was imprisoned in her own castle and she was literally bricked up in a room with a little slot to get food through, probably is it. It was a gothic gothic punishment very fitting are gothic hungarian countess yeah and she always maintained her innocence. You say, and she was depicted as a beast. Basically memorializes. That is a beast and you say, one very interesting thing that her crypt in nineteen ninety five tell us about her crypt in nineteen. Ninety five sure so her crips her body was moved at least

because at first she was buried in holy ground and the residents were, like, oh know, know, know, know, know. Your body was moved to the battery crypt and it was open in nineteen ninety five and they didn't find a single sign that her body was ever So she could be among us today. We don't know how yeah you talk about the myth that everybody has heard about will just get to it the blood bass that she was right, killing spilling the blood bathing in it to remain young forever. It was about what you thought about the Miss and and yeah as you do you offer reasons why this myth may have emerged? Yes, so the popular myth is yes, she did it all for vanity because she needed virgin blood to in. I don't think I even met

in this in the book. But one of the reasons that can't be true is because this is so gross, but a pair play blood congeals very fast, and you you can't like collect it in babe in it. But basically what happened was the guy who rediscovered trial transcripts in the 1720s with the judge. Caller and he sort of the one. We have to think that You know about her at all, but he's also the one we have to not thank for some of these legends. So he bloodbath rumor. I don't know why, but it first appears in the book he wrote and it does not appear in the trial, transcript, um and but people have watched on to it. I mean it's compelling it's fascinating. It screen

be. It makes it explains why she did what she did. You know well hope she she was vain. She needed virgin plus and the bloodbath rumor is become like, part of her symbol. So in there a lot of black metal songs about her and they mentioned bloodbath, there's a lot of about her and and she's, always in a bloodbath that sort of become the number one. I think people think about when I think about first about Bathory. But there's? No there's, no proof that it's true there's a lot of there's a lot of proof that it's not true, like the fact that it's not mentioned in the trial or like the fact that some of her torture squad mentioned.

Her beating me the girl so badly that her blood that her shirt we get drenched in blood and she would have to stop the torture and go change. So you know she's, clearly not collecting the blood, if that's what she's doing she's just it's just sort of like a growth side effect, so yeah the blood bath they're, not true as much as you now. It would make first through the story. And what do you conclude with this story? What did you come away with? I guess, and what you leave for the The reader is sort of a conclusion on this incredible again, the Grande Dame of serial killers. What do we take away from this story? Well, a humans are terrifying histories, weird, but mostly what I took away was that.

People we tend to sexualize are female serial killers as a way to deal with them to make them less scary and to understand them. Arse about within credit is incredibly sexualized. You know her legend, I mean if you just So I say in the book, if you just run a Google image search on her she like nude in all the images, so she's just become like this actually vampire. Maybe she was alive. The end like this to the lighting figure and I think that the trial transcript you know if you read them, they didn't. That is not what she was. She was the status. Then she was the take a class and she was a terrible person and to me it's like you, you don't have to

sexualize her to make her story compelling or interesting or creepy. It's terrifying as it is, it's even scarier for me, if she's just if we just treat her as the evil countess that she was the blood countess rather than like this symbol of what kind of a vampire and kinda hot. I think we should just like state the potential three all there dead in the eyes and that's terrifying enough, certainly certainly toy we're going to use this as an opportunity to stop for a second to talk about our sponsor, which is blue, apron. Blue apron is the number one fresh ingredient and recipe delivery service in the country and blue aprons mission is to make incredible home cooking accessible to everyone, away from the this: by supporting a more sustainable food system, setting the highest standards for ingredients and building a community of home chefs.

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Very lousy holiday, the worst woman on earth and tell us a little bit about Lizzie Holiday and why on earth she be called the worst woman on earth. I thought: well I love lovely holiday story in a morbid way. She's called the worst by many newspapers, including the New York Times. So when we meet living holiday in this chapter, she is doing time for our And, as you said, and she's doing, just fine she's a two year sentence and right before she's about to be released. She just kind of switch flips and she starts acting insane, and so she gets transferred to an asylum and does the rest of the sentence there when she walks free. Gets out of the asylum go straight to this little town in Pennsylvania, called Newburgh and me an older man who is looking for like a housekeeper and she kind of

farms. Him, even though she's definitely a weird person. Her whole life people were both interest. In her and repelled by her. She and then she gets the job and then soon enough he's like well. If I marry her it's cheaper, I don't have Pay for the forty dollars a week or whatever he's paying her so they get married and there she may get married, and this guys name is Paul holiday. He already has it Your kids, his kids, do not like Lizzie, they think she's, weird. They don't understand why she's suddenly in their lives, they're just very confused Paul holiday, also has a son who is hand. Happens, still lives at home with him. Uh. And Lizzy comes into their lives and It is the worst thing ever. One of many crazy things she did well PAL holiday was still alive, was burned down his entire house with his poor son inside

and when they came racing back and saw the rubble Lizzie, standing there and she had she claimed, so he died. Trying to save me. He went back into the fire to try and save me, but somehow they could tell from the sons, bedroom door, it was locked and Lizzy had the key with her, so they can well. She had locked her locks, this poor son in there and he had died. So that's like her fur, murder that barely even mentioned, because she there are so many more but Basically, Lizzie is from Ireland very originally as a young child. She came over to the US when she was young and Family kind of lost touch with her because she was always difficult troublesome too much to get very angry at you. She would she attacked some of her family man.

Especially also loves him very deeply. She was just unpredictable and wasn't that much fun to have around. I think she was married with it five times she went through. All these marriages often with older men that ended really poorly. No one died yet, but they were just filled with drama and screaming and and some of those marriages. They were both terrified of each other and bad news all around so and over this period, there's so many details in her story. So please stop me if I'm getting down, but she had a son with one of these men and he was taken from her when she went to jail for arson. This is a separate thing of ours and the weapons are summer. She killed Paul how they son and while she was in jail, her son was given away to foster I should never able to find him, so that was one of the early tragedies of her life

You say there was only it was only a month after she had burned down the house. She burned down the barn and the mill and declaring that he needed a new one anyway, and then she ran off with another man yeah she was apprehended thrown back in jail. Where apparently again, she was acting insane pulling out her hair and screaming. And that got rid of those charges. And then go ahead, so so That was sort of a classic Lizzie thing: do something really wild that didn't really make sense, get thrown into jail, start screaming, get transferred to the asylum and while that happened, her husband Paul this latest husband was like. Oh no she's, perfectly saying: don't listen to her so she stayed at the asylum for a year and then the doctor said she's cured and she got out

and another year passed and then Paul holiday goes missing and Lizzie says that you've gone on a business trip so he's gone, he's gone will be back soon, but everyone is precious her neighbors have heard really strange sounds coming from the farm at night, Paul Holidays, kids were never caught with her so instantly there. Like. I don't like this, we don't know where dad is so. Basically what happens? Is these neighbors decided that they were going to search an arm and see if they can find? and poor Paul holiday anywhere and what happens. Is they search the farmhouse they'd find anything they searched the barn and they find this big pile of straw and underneath the straw there's like garbage. And then underneath the garbage they find to nobody's there,

four for one hundred and two and neither two bodies of women. So that was when the town and the police quickly got quickly, of the news that they had sort of an exceptional case on their hands. This wasn't just one of your husband. You know, wife kills husband in a fit of rage, but this was a far bigger crimes. Now what happened with the search for Paul holiday after the find these bodies? How does it how do police proceed and what happens with this reality? So the police, let's see hi line, they live, live they get thrown into jail. But what happened before that? After when they're searching for when they're searching the farm right before they find the few female body is that was used is acting really strange.

She she screamed at the police. That you can't come in then she starts talking about how she has. Bugs crawling all over her and she's trying to pick them off. She just like, starts acting weird, but people report that she had. It's is clever, look in her eyes, so they aren't convinced that she's not acting. So she gets locked up, good and Well, where she starts immediately doing her thing, where she screaming and she's being very performative, and meanwhile Paul holidays. Kids are still worried about their father. So one of the boys goes over to search the farm with a friend. Very worried about what he might find. What he finds is that there's a floor board in the kitchen. And it looks a little unusual phillips he lifted up the dirt underneath has been disturbed and they sort of he and his

friend, put up like a metal rod down to kind of see what's down there and they hit something that sort of firm butt, also soft in a way and I think they went careening out of there and their worst fears are confirmed, were confirmed when it's dug up and it the body of Paul holiday, their dad and he's been shot and he's been hit beaten in the head. So hard that is less, I had fallen out of a socket so now she's. Three bodies kind of around. So she in jail. Now and there's these three bodies that have been found around her home and her farm and People immediately start questioning whether or not she's insane, because I mean we still,

will have. You know the insanity plea people People are very conflicted by her because she's doing me things that we think of as what someone who's, not in their right mind would do like she's raving and screaming and picking it her clothes and dropping of them mouth more or less, but then people also some who's capture in moments where she seems like she knows, what's going on like if she doesn't know anyone's watching, she'll just sit on her bed very quietly once she knows someone's watching she'll start to scream and tearing her hair and stuff and she has this. Knowing look in her eyes, sometimes that people point at so people don't know why to make of her and people really never never do it's the theme that haunts her whole,

whole career as a serial killer is people don't know if she was insane or not yeah so the the bodies of the women are identified and there, sort of random, like they're, not even really her neighbors, they live in the nearby town and if the mother and a daughter- and she basically We were to them over to her house, one after the other on the pretense that she wanted to hire any woman, and she said her name was MRS Smith and um you know, we don't there- there are no witnesses from the night they died. So we don't know exactly what went but she had shot them in the heart and wrapped them up put input cloth around their head, which is so creepy, and wrapped them up and drive into the barn and put them under the hay. So all that is their identity comes out and as the as she's being held in jail, on the trial is getting underway,

and then the trial is a lot of speculation about her mental state. And you know the the prosecution. Has doctors go in an examine her and she flies at one of them with she picked up the lid off her toilet in her jail cell and tries to crack his head open and she ran visit them and she talks about the Holy Spirit and the number thirteen and she says, there's a river running outside of her her Tell door and they're not convinced. One of them says that she's overdoing the art which I love, it's just like. No you're trying too hard um, so basically what he but she has a great lawyer. I love her defense lawyer. There are a lot of wheat well, meaning diff lawyers in the book. Her just like you can just tell they were very empathetic people

and her defense lawyer is just like. Everyone look she's completely friendless, she's, she's silent she's, not speaking for herself she's, completely silent in this courtroom? She's. Just this pitiful figure and she's clearly insane, because there's absolutely no motive for this crime of the two of killing the two women, and a motiveless crime isn't insane. Crime is basically his argument, but. The jury does not buy that argument. The jury debates here couple of hours and then they come out and they say guilty of murder in the first degree and not insane in the slightest, and I think I think that. No, I know for a fact with that verdict came the electric chair. And that would have made her the first woman to ever die in there,

chair, I believe and in fact the sort of the the monumentous nosov that idea that she would be the first woman in the electric chair change. People mines immediately after the verdict was handed down people all of a sudden. We're like we wait. Ok, we weren't sure that she was insane, but we didn't actually think she should get the death penalty. It suddenly started seeming too serious and just too terrible to people and so people started petitioning the governor, the governor, New York. I think too take another look into her case and he listens and he he actually appointed the special commission of doctors, who are you know, I guess, less biased than prosecutions, doctors to inspect movie holiday, Inn sort of hand down a new verdicts on her sanity.

New. These doctors are also really great. They were appalled at how the trial went down. They were trial was way too sensational. They said It was just too much of the public screaming that she was saying and she needed the death penalty and just too much drama, and it wasn't like a fair scientific examination of her mental state and basically, what these new special commission of doctors decided, and this is What I believe to a bluesy holiday is that she was a smart. Woman. She she was not completely She knew what she was doing, because not only could she maintain sort of a normal life and social appointments and pay her bills, but the crimes were well executed. She hid the bodies she killed, multiple people, this

of the work of someone just kind of rating around with a gun in her hand, no idea where she was the big knowledge that she was smart and she was with it in some way, but they said that she had something called conscious and cope with insanity, which is kind of violence, the Jews and burst from her, and that she couldn't help and she was sort of yeah. She was helpless in the face violence. So they couldn't. They said that they couldn't decide if she knew that what she was doing was wrong, but they were positive that she was unable to stop herself from doing it, and so they declared her insane, which got her off the electric chair out of the electric chair and got her life in the insane asylum at this town called Mattia one. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. You talk in the book, though, and I found it very interesting with the parallels today that people were at that time. Despite do

description of insanity, the lot of symptoms of sanity or characteristics that would be linked to insanity or that the they were really afraid that she be deemed insane, and it was just a dodge. Her and in it she would be somehow let out and, as you just said, she was sentenced, to never get out of the insane asylum, so people, even at that time, we're afraid that people might dodge justice by the insanity defense. You also talk about very interesting character. It also was a intrepid girl reporter uh, the chief was already did

investigations into the women's lunatic asylum on Blackwell's island and she was named Nellie Bly and she had interviewed Lizzie holiday. So what is some of the stuff? As you write the book that she got Lizzie to say or what Lizzie did say to her no yeah yeah, Nellie Bly is amazing. Maybe some of heard of her before she's kind of like a cult figure in journalism he's very cultural and yeah. She scored these. In this two part exclusive interview with Lizzie. So it's awesome because it's one of the few cases where we have quotes from the killer from the source that we can trust. So, Basically, she finally got with to talk about the crimes it took her a long time living just wants to talk about the finance. She won to talk about. You know, make sure you get my horse to go. You know she just wanted to talk business in a weird way, but now

they finally got her to talk about the crimes and what they did was, and she does this a couple times in her life. Is she kind of it colleges that she was bare, but she's a very positive language and says that some shadow, we other figured it. It's really weird, because you know it, We were going to. If you completely with it. You would just deny that you were anywhere near the scene of the crime I assume, but she says she says that there was this quote unquote gang she doesn't really say. Who or why? But this gang came by and killed these two women, and Livy didn't even know that it happened because she was chloroformed but when she woke up the win, we're gone an even though there were no blood stains on your carpet and bullet holes in her walls, she's just like. Well, they probably left and went on with day and so of course journey

Nelly is like very skeptical, because it's just a crazy story. I mean Cora form in a mysterious gang showing up to murder, Anne. She pushes and pushes, to get a confession out of Lizzie? And finally, she can't get a compression, so finally Nelly says Bible, so that you and you alone, killed your husband and these women and buried them. I don't believe you're ever insane one moment in your life and that you are the shrewdest and most wonderful I'm in criminal, the world has ever known and creepy Lizzie just gave her big old smile and didn't, say anything and then goes. Did you did you not kill these people and he says some other time. My head feels bad now, some other time. And then now is about to leave. But she decided to try one more time and she just asks. Do you repent of your crime. You think you did something wrong and Lizzy says: God

will send you back to main that well ask line to Nelly, which is so creepy and in the article Nelly says she left the prison with a little chill running to her body. You talk about her time in the sane asylum Amatha one material one, and you talk about a woman named Nelly Wicks, one of the attendants. Only twenty four years old, so tell us about the continuing sag of Lizzie Holiday once she's law Stop. There's all kinds of incidents sees in solitary confinement for attacks, but tell us about them, and then what happens yeah so by the time Nelly Wicks comes into Lizzys Life Lizzy's been in in prison for a law. Sometime couple decades. She mid forties and she is gained weight. She used to starve herself and be really skinny, and now she just kind of like double and peaceful and

It's like. Oh that's, that old, murderous Lizzie holiday. You know that's sort of the vibe in the silent people, aren't scared of her she's given selling privileges, so she is a little basket of supplies and Nelly. Wicks is the head attendant of the women's department there and she's, just a great the great girl, great worker, and she has dreams of leaving the essay element training to be a nurse. In the mean time, doing great she's doing great work asylum, soul, Izzy and Ali get very close and Nelly just trust Lizzie. She thinks that for violent days are over an she thinks they have a special bond with they do. But it's a special creepy bond so finally Nelly. It's the news that she's She gets in nursing, school or whatever. So she comes into the s and she tells everyone yeah I am leaving to pursue my dreams and Lizzie really does not like this and Lizzy begs her not to go bags or not to go and Fenwick says

to go over. Everything is going to be fine, um and Lizzy starts murder, uh, sorry, freudian slip, Lizzie starts murmuring. Oh I'm gonna kill her if she goes but that was only the people were used to her making threats. She should talk about murdering people under breath all the time and she never did anything. The people didn't think anything of it, which is a huge mistake so one day before Nelly's last day at work Lizzie takes her, gets her basket assuming supplies and she gets the scissors out of it and she followed Nelly into the women's bathroom and she, Now he doesn't see that she's there and Lizzy springs up behind her and starts beating her to the floor, and an grab. The keys and locks from nellies bell. Or whatever and locks the door from the inside and being

stab and Ellie and she stabbed her over two hundred times in the face in the heart in the neck and by the time, the the other attendants. The asylum here screaming and managed to break down the door she's on and bleeding out and she dies twenty minutes later than actual. The Nally, became because of that Nelly became the first do not female lawn. Officer in the US to be killed in the line of duty and someone why, and why did you do that? She was your friend you guys got along like how could you do something this awful and was he said, I tried to leave me yeah, credible terrible now. What did they think and what and now that she's in the same asylum kills a law enforcement. Person a twenty four year old person with her life ahead of her uh huh.

How do they do now at this asylum and what do they think about her inside? now, is that they believe she's insane now and then what do they do?. Well, I'm pretty sure you guys back in the fall is here you can find and she's already done then, and there for attacking another. You know attendant years before, but yeah they believe she's insane. I think the people at the asylum always thought that she was insane, but they had thought that she had just almost down and she wasn't violent anymore, but you know she's already in the she's already in their silence for life, so there's really not much. They can do and she This was out the rest of her days. There Nelly with her last murder, I think that makes her fist murder. She had attempted to kill a sixth person, but So in a was the last murder and something that unique about Lizzie is that

the randomness of her killing, I mean there's, no, you know a lot of people kill. Family members or like TED Bundy like Burnett girls, but Lizzie was just such a random killer. You know a husband here there are some neighbors there. You know What would you call not only like sort of a almost a supervisor figure there, just really scary, but yeah? She she stayed in the asylum for the rest of her life and she died. I mean look up where she died. I forget. I think she was a nurse they 60S choose just fifty eight, so she was in the asylum after killing Valley for a decade and a half. I think. And just all that road is there. You talk about the title that evolve the worst woman on earth. Then you talk about the meat yeah sensation. It was a newspaper headlines, tell us a lot it about how big this story was and again where this

first woman on earth and how big was that? How important was this story? How far did it go around the world? It was a huge huge story, a special say when she was captured the first time for killing her the two neighbor women and her husband. It was people panicked. People thought she was just the most tear verbal freak, show, horror, they'd ever seen, and it got so bad that people rumors started flying around that she was actually jack the ripper and that she had just you know done for crimes in England and then come over to America to kill more people so yeah. It is absolutely huge story and then she, you still fame. I mean she became a celebrity like serial code,

is often do, and she was still famous when she was doing her years in the asylum before she killed. Nelly journalist would occasionally come out there and check up on her kind of write, an update, but by the time she was dead, she was pretty much forgotten so this worst woman on earth- I couldn't find you know the first publication to get for that title, but it was so. It was at least ubiquitous enough that when the New York Times, reported her death. They referred to her as someone who had been called the worst on an so. I think it was just kind of sitting around in the back then- and I think that's an interesting title because I mean we've just talked about Bathory, who you know probably killed more people. If her story is true- and so it's like she wasn't worst woman on earth. If we're going to rank killing.

You know she didn't claim the most victims and she was insane in her way. She had this conscious impulsive insanity, You know, I don't know I I don't I didn't want to diagnose or with like a a term. We would use today, but she wasn't saying so: it's just in resting that she got called the worst woman on earth and I think it shows how just horrified people were of her and how grossed out they were of her there's a lot of referring to her as an animal or this sort of wild feral beast, which they said about battery too, actually so yeah. I think, there's a lot to say about the fact that she was called the worst woman, or with another. Absolutely when you take this now to a story called viper, so we talked and tickets to Egypt

Alexandria and you talking about the two sisters or two women Reya answer Quina. So tell us a little bit about the time in Alexandria and where what what time period we're talking about your first and tell us a little bit about sort of a little bit of a background there, it would set up the situation for a an Sakina at that time. Sure and yes, one ended there. Yeah so World WAR, one is just ended. We're in Alexandria, in Egypt and times- are very tense. Not only are gender roles changing as they were, they many you know many countries across world at that time, but huge devastating war. Just ended, and the egyptian people are thinking. Okay, the british troops are set leave now we're supposed to become a self governing nation. This is what we promised and they don't see that happening

so this is like nineteen. Nineteen, I think and Alexandria is very tense. There's a lot of variety, there's a lot of friends, breaking out. There strikes going out the egyptian peace for the alexandrian. People are very angry at the authorities and because of all this violence, the police are kind of distracted, and so our tale takes place in the poorest. This active Alexandria just called Alabon, and not only are the police distracted by these riots and demonstrations, but the police were never paying that much attention to the district in the first place, because I mean we've, you know we see now this go the the you know, the the poorer districts the poor places tended, just sort of slipped through the cracks. The authorities don't really care. If the dead body turns up here or there, so Ryan Sakina Arcis, sisters and we

there is one I don't know it's funny about their early lives. I will say there is a great book about them. That is very well researched and it is in Arabic and I cannot find a translation of it, but it in the footnote, or it is in the end as of this chapter. So if anyone wants to dive into them there, but basically they came from a broken home the narcissistic mom, and they just kind of moved around upper Egypt a lot and live this sort of transient lifestyle with full of petty crime. So they were just there petty criminals. From early on, but they were all So very well, it's not easy, or they are petty criminals and their very enterprising. They were kind of like entrepreneurs, they were hustlers, they always had a scheme going to make money.

And they got into the brothel business because it was lucrative because they were they live near. These british camps and the british soldiers were happy to frequent these brothels so for a while they're making a lot of money and they had the husband who are kind of secondary characters, because It honestly seems like Ryan Sakeen over the brains behind the operations, but what happened after World WAR One an all this tension was that, they started making less money with these brothels and basically they just power dynamics were shifting. Both in the world and in the city and in the microcosm of their neighborhood in there brothels- and it's. Complicated, but that lead to violence, because they Especially RIAA, the older sister was very

paranoid and was very what's the word for when you just you think every about to get. I guess literally paranoid. She just was suspicious. She always thought people. Owed her money or that people are trying to con her So what happened? Was there girl? You know the sex workers, the girls that works at their brothels were back in the good old days of world war, one when they were making a ton of money, they were able. To buy their girls gold bracelets, which was sort of the thing to wear, as you know, to advertise yourself to the John, you wanted as many gold, bracelets and gold jewelry as possible and then asked when time started getting tougher after World WAR one when they were making less money riot started. Getting really suspicious like chew. The girls had to buy their own bracelets and she would get really suspicious that maybe they'd

got money for an encounter with a client hadn't given ryer haircut. So it all kind of happen around gold and the rumor that's endured. That I don't really think is true is that Brian Sakina would so start hunting down women who were wearing a lot of gold like in the marketplace random right in. And lure them back to their apartment and ply them with drugged wine. Should I get, crime. There is there anything you want to talk about before I. Well, we can just seems like very similar again because the you talk about people looking the other way and not noticing, and there is a society at that time. At the time there was people that went unnoticed. And so they're able to do that so and it seems like

Would you talk about the raision Sakina had been hauled off to the police before for questioning, And have been numerous times, numerous missing but they had always. They had always managed to convince the police, had nothing to do with the cases. So tell us how everything comes undone sure so yeah women start to go missing and people start to complain. Maybe a family member here, a neighbor there and yes, the police, do Occasionally, oh, what happens if there's the common thread in a lot of these missing cases or their last name is Sakena? Were there last thing with rhia, but the sisters managed to talk their way out of it, especially Sakina, who is just kind of the more outgoing, clever brave one? exactly like you said. I mean the police didn't hey there are about the inhabitants of this neighborhood. They do this all a bond was a poor district and it was also kind of if you were like in

P and sailor is where you went to find vice. You know you could find some drugs and some do's and some women and the been here, and I mean we see this throughout history in cases where the victims are prostitutes are sex workers. You know it you just they. People don't care as much as when it's like the cheerleader from the Chicago suburbs or whatever, there's a sense that these people are disposable and there's a sense too. I think that Ryan You know we're disposable, so yeah, the police are not doing a good job here. There's a lot of shady stuff happening and they're, just kind of ignoring it and what what's really happening or ok, so I'll jump I'll jump ahead to how it really started. Raval, basically neighbors. This is so gross, but never start Complain that rise house smell.

Really awful that there's this decaying stench coming from it. And no matter how much and since you burn you can't hide the stench and rise like well people drink. Here we have parties here, a good thirty. It will like the police are going to complain about. That that and then simultaneously in a house that Sakina used to live in the own the decide to redo the pipes and so they're digging into the floor and the guy who they've there, 'cause and they've hired to dig up the floor, hit something hard and it's a human arm, so sort of at the same time, Tina's old apartment or is dug up and they find bodies under it and then rise apartment with all the maquis is that it's not bad, is dug up and they find bodies under the floor and they even fine couple of bodies under the floor of their old landlady. So all of a sudden it all kind of snaps into focus.

And I like okay, we've had all these missing women. Then we would have these. In women and now we've got like these seventeen bodies and there and they are all connected to these sisters. So the sisters get dragged in for questioning and and sixteen and manages to deny deny deny, apparently riot, the older sister ends up breaking and that kind of dooms them both and she confesses. You talk about to the media response. The newspapers even published photos of the Vict. Then they find some of these victims are skeletal, remains only uh, huh yeah that that's really sad to me because up Well, I mean: can you imagine, seeing a photo of skeletal published in the papers today but it really really shook the neighborhood, because it was

Ok, not only did this horrible crime happen right here under our noses, but the fact- These bodies were there for so long that they've turned into skeletons or like some of them, it's sort of started to mollify I mean that's so that show that was just graphic visual evidence of how long the police had not care How long the police had not been doing their jobs. They had I've been doing their jobs for long enough female body too. Turn into a modified skeleton. With just a little hair After this call, I mean it was like this really the gruesome, obvious um sign of the police, not caring, so the journalists at the time there were some impassioned and very sad editorials, written and one then said, the common refrain was just like where the police were the police. One where is the police when these crimes are committed? Some of these bodies have turned into skeletons show

at the victims are murdered along time ago, so yeah it was that sense. If abandonment by the authorities. In that sense, that no about his victims, and no one cares about us, the neighborhood, where these crimes have been happening. You also say that it seems that the time nineteen twenties Egypt, the glaring it was a glaring symbol of everything that was wrong with a society where women walked unveiled through the streets. Yes, that is that is what the papers thought like. That is what society thought that or yeah. Let me back up. Basically, the sisters became so infamous so fast, even though there's plenty of evidence that their husbands were involved in the killing and that these two

men who are kind of the bodyguards of the brothels were also involved, so there were six or people accused of the crimes, but the men were just totally forgotten because it was like these killings, sisters were I mean there are so perfect for the headlines and yeah. They turned into these symbols. The case ballooned beyond the facts of the crime and they turned into these symbols for this decline in female morality, so these editorials were written. That was like that really blamed the victims for sort of getting them to the point in society where they would even encounter a riot or a claiming that victims for moral failings for walking down the streets where people like Ryan, Sakina lurked, and so it was like. You know, Egypt, Alexandria, was already in a place of anxiety about the fact that women role

those were changing, and women are walking around and being little bit more free and maybe even frequenting, cafes and bars, and so this case was like a perfect warning sign. I guess people who wanted to argue that women shouldn't be allowed to walk around the streets because of like well look at what happened, you walk you walk around the street, the ball a bonnet, the woman. You get yourself murders. So it yeah it became this. They became this Paul in a cultural battle. I guess you can hey about female morality. We also talk about them being portrayed as beast with claws, towering over trembling girl in hissing no escape for you. From my talents and then all kinds of inhuman depiction beasts. The foxes in wool

and you say that there was even a rumor that the 3in Ryan Sakina were being displayed at the zoo, and people ran to the zoo you know to see if that was the case. But you also talk about the women's crimes. Generally demand an element of mercy. Was that the case in this case that was this was not the case, so the prosecutor was arguing that The sister should get the death penalty, even though no woman and you just had gotten the death penalty before and what? he said was ok, we had reason, we're not giving them the death penalty in the past. First of all, women's crimes generally demand an element of mercy, and he, he meant he was talking about crimes where you know sort of you kill uh. Well, his example was

when a woman is when women are driven to kill their husbands. Second, wise, which sort of Adele example- you know he's talking about things where sort of an emotional reason or something like jealousy or abuse or abuse is an emotional reason, but he's saying: ok, women I'm is generally demanded an element of mercy, but Ryan Sikinos crimes were not done in self. And jealousy or anything, and so they don't have their compassion, and he also said that the death penalty used to be a public thing, and so that was reason enough not to give it to a woman because we didn't want to have society, the woman be home But now the death penalty had been taken, sort of pulled it inside the prison, and so he was like so reason, number two for not killing a woman is gone, so we should give them the death penalty Ann. And indeed they did get the death penalty. His argument was affective and people were so

if I buy them, and actually all six of them got the death penalty, so the sisters and their husbands and these two body guards who were implicated in the crime. You say that, right after the sisters were hung or hanged. They entered into public mythology almost immediately six months after their death talk about some of the things that how they entered mythology by virtue of sure. So to this day there there they kind of haunt Egypt. You know I've spoken to a couple: people from Egypt. Said that ranking or like the still these figures and the they immediately started or people immediately started, putting them in plays or poems or books. So they immediately became characters. There's a film from nineteen fifty three

CALL Ryan Sakina that showed the police as these heroes who caught the sisters just in time, before they're about to do their final murder. Obviously, that's a little propaganda, ish 'cause, as we know, that's not what happened with. Please they were in a t we show in. I want to say two thousand and five and and my friend has watched it and I've just seen. Apparently it's just like really pulpy and hilarious so that, yeah, they were in a lot of a lot of sort of popular culture. And their legend definitely spread all across Egypt and I think remains that way. To this day. You have some quotes from her as well that Sakina one of the guards.

When they were taken for their execution, is a tough enough be strong. What did Sakina say to him, which is demonstrative of her defiance? Sakina, when the guard told her that she kind of snarled- and she said I am a strong woman- if I can take on one hundred- I can take on one thousand and then a little bit later, she said I murdered I murdered, but it's okay, because I fooled the government of all bonds and then, as she was nearing the called in the gallows. She said this is the place or strong woman. There is a place where strong people stand, I'm a strong woman and I've done things that even men can't do and and me Very impressive, bold fiery words, and oddly enough, when those words are published people a certain type of person who is maybe a little bit more antiestablishment, look like oh,

I'm kind of liking, the Sakina now she's sort of this anti establishment hero, And other, although the man bears thing final words for the police and the government to because that's exactly what happened she did for the police she did Will the government for a long time? By being this. Strong woman, I mean you know, I don't want to praise what she did at all, but she did. She did kind of con the system and so So I think people were weirdly impressed by her final words and the like. Ok she's, not just some. You know shrinking violet, whose husband manipulated her into killing or something she um she's, a strong woman as she said, defiant to the end. Absolute anything right becomes the they become Boogie man in there.

Home country the riot and seeking a will, get you, though mother still their young daughters to this day. Yeah. Thank God. In fact, and. Absolutely now we don't have anymore time to go into the other stories, but maybe you can just tell us how we might be able to get this book if you have a facebook page. I know this is Harper Perennial release and if you do any twitter or how people might find out about this work and also, if you do any so media at all. Let us know about sure thanks. Yes, yes, you can. Pre order. It comes out October tenth and you can pre order it now on Amazon, the Noble Indiebound Harper Perennials website apple. Really anywhere. I think if you google it it should come up pretty easily

and then yes, I would for social things. They're just go to my website. Tori Telford Tom, which I'm redoing, but it's still there and I have a newsletter- and you know you can follow me in read their instagram or whatever. And yeah that would be great and if anyone's in Chicago I have a the launch is happening on October tenth and the details are on my website. So I'm excited about that. Absolutely, and, and also you have some we- we just talked about in the introduction to have some very, very interesting illustrations by Dame Darcy that are included in your book and also I wanted to thank you very much for coming on and talk about, lady killer Deadly women throughout history. It's been a real pleasure and I want to thank you very much. Oh thank you

I appreciate it yeah and then I hope to we hope to talk to you again and thank you very much for coming on and talking about lady killers, and you have a great evening goodnight you too goodnight. Thank you like to Corey, didn't join us for the two Corey takeover happen: Nori Jewelers Wednesday. Through Saturday, the sixteenth, through nineteenth, been nori, will unveil more than five hundred to Corey Engagement rings, direct from California, you'll see rings from every collection and diamonds of every shape and size, and you get interest free financing for up to thirty six months, while you're here enter for a chance to win twenty thousand dollars to Corey Jewelry, only at the Norrie Jewelers in Exton and Newtown Square, or at the Norrie jewelers dot com. And now I thought

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