« True Murder: The Most Shocking Killers

LIST OF 10-C.L. Swinney

2017-05-25 | 🔗
A narcissistic professional photographer lived a dangerous double life as a serial killer. He'd focus his rage on prostitutes mostly. It wasn't uncommon for him to bring them home then try to explain why they were there to his wife.Sexual urges met, the killer would strangle his victims and dump their bodies in places he knew the police would eventually find them. The evil murderer needed the world to know that he was smarter than the police and women meant nothing to him but a necessary sexual inconvenience.Then, by a stroke of chance and aggressive police work, the wheels of justice stumbled upon a lead. It was nothing more than a lined sheet of paper that read, "List of 10," but shortly after its discovery, a task force was created and a serial killer was nabbed. This book is about the victims he left behind, not the person who took their lives. I will never condone such actions, nor will I try to rationalize his behavior. He will go to the grave, hopefully sooner rather than later, knowing the identity of four women from his fabled List of 10. It's his sick way of showing people he's still in charge.His name is Joseph Naso, and this book will grip you from the beginning and won't let you go until the final word. LIST OF TEN: The True Story of Serial Killer Joseph Naso-C.L. Swinney
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking killers and true crime history and the authors that have written about Gacy, Bundy Dahmer, the night stalker Dgk every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers crime, history, true murder, with your host journalist and author Dan good evening, a narcissistic professional photographer live the dangerous double life as a serial killer. He focuses rage on prostitutes. Mostly, it wasn't uncommon for him to bring them home, then try to explain why they were there to his wife
Sexual urges met the killer, would strangle his victims and dump their bodies in places. He knew the police would eventually find them. The evil murderer needed the world to know that he was smarter than the police and women meant nothing to him but unnecessary sexual inconvenience, then, by a stroke of chance and aggressive police work, the wheels of justice stumbled upon a lead, nothing more than that line sheet of paper that read list of ten or shortly after its discovery, a task force was created in the serial killer was nabbed. This book is about the victims. He left behind not the person who took their lives. I will never condone such actions. Nor will I try to rationalize behavior. He will go to his grave, hopefully sooner rather than later Knowing the identity of four women from his fabled list of ten
it's a sick way of showing people he still in charge. His name is Joseph Nazo, and this book will grip you from the beginning and won't let you go until the final word. The book tour featuring the evening is list of ten. The true story of serial killer, Joseph Nazo, with my special guest journalist and author, see well Swinney. Welcome welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Cl Swinney. Hey thanks a lot for letting me come on your show, I'm a big fan, so it's kind of cool to be to actually be on the show. Well, thank you very much. This is is an incredible story of serial killer. I knew nothing about so thank you for
little story and introduction to a very, very colorful serial killer, Joseph Nazo, now, let's start with without giving anything away. Just briefly, how did you come to be the author of this book? How did you come to want to write about Joseph Nazo, close about that, so I've got written in several other books about serial killers and had just come off my eight book- and I was looking for targets to write about in the San Francisco Bay, the area and I've been in the Bay area for almost twenty five years now, and I had never heard of this case myself, but basically I was doing some research on serial killers in California and this Mister NASH.
Those name popped up and as soon as I started reading some of the details of the case, just that I could glean from the internet. I was hooked on the case, mainly because what I kept reading was his victims were prostitutes and a lot of stuff that came out about the case, That was just kind of categorizing women in it and a light that I wasn't a fan of a specially prostitutes. My background is in law enforcement, and so I've dealt with and worked with prostitutes in the past, and I know them to be people, and so this case is it mostly about victims that were prostitutes, and I thought to myself. You know it's a local case. I have access to data and stuff, but I'm gonna need to to write a
good, solid book, but I could also try to track down the victims, families and try to paint a picture of the victims and give them a voice. I mean that was my goal all along. So that's kind of what drove me to get involved with this case, And you certainly do bring to life pardon the expression, but you bring these victims to life into terms of creating real characters rather than what you might get from the newspapers. So you start off this book. You open the book in Oakland CA in January, nine. One thousand nine hundred and seventy seven and you introduce rock scene, rogue ash and- and she has a boyfriend named Benjamin bennett- boyfriend, slash pimp so tell about her about her son change, Shane and just what she was really like. What
she had experienced in her life and how she was how she got to this position in January, one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven yeah, so rock theme, kind of became. The focal point of the book was largely because I just compelled to dig deeper and find out about her life and every time I learn something new about her in her life. It just kind of made it. It was sad. It was sad to hear it was sad to see how her life played out and ultimately led to her demise in being a victim, but she Also, the first victim of Joe that so, and so her story is, is pretty sad as far as our family life. You grew up in a home environment that was described by her brother and half sister at
this violent. There was a lot of violence in the house. Her mother beat the children quite a bit. She beat all the kids who didn't really single out any of her siblings, but rock scene was the victim of quite a bit of physical abuse, not sexual, that I could determine but physical for sure and then her biological father passes away and then her mom remarries, and this guy is just as abusive as as her by law. Uncle father was so. She was a fighter. She found herself leaving the house and eventually running away, home trying to get away from the physical and mental use that occured in her house and then what happens a lot of times when kids leave their homes they end up on the streets, an you know. It sounds crazy to
say this, and I've been in law enforcement for seventeen years, but sometimes the streets are more, for bearable than their own homes, and that was kind of rock scene stink. She felt more comfortable. On the street than she did in her own house some. Yet that was her mom and her biological father had passed but sure Silva, Are there so she kept coming back to that chaotic in via so she had a childhood that was extremely difficult. Then she was exposed to abuse both physically and mentally. She experienced her father passing away and then a new man came in her life and adult figure, and he was also physically abusive there was a lot of drug abuse in the home lot of alcohol abuse in the home, so rock scene just basically struck out trying to
make her way in life. Unfortunately, when she did that gentle up becoming a prostitute and running into what just what you mentioned earlier Benjamin strangely enough, though, is then then actually really actually loved rock scene and this whole story when it starts to open up- and I started digging into her murder. Benjamin was involved with the case. At one point he was considered a suspect maybe later helped actually with the investigation. So it went full circle for Benjamin, but when she was a prostitute, she ended up being sorted by this Joan Asshole character and at the time he had already been with numerous prostitutes. He had committed hundreds of rapes across
United States and landed in the Oakland area. The Bay area proper, an end up with rock scene, and that was Joe's first murder. He he paid her for sex, but they add sex Joe needed to, was strangled women to get himself aroused and to reach an erection. I was one of them. You know more disgusting things about him. Was that need to do that and overpower women to reach orgasm, but with rock scenes case, he did that uh and then he strangled her and then took her body away, but he did all matter of factly very calmly. He knew of a place out in Fairfax, which is n end of the San Francisco Bay Area and literally Dispo,
most of her body in the side of the road. Let's go back. Just a little bit because I think it's much more dramatic the introduction of your book because we talk about again. You you capture the complexity of this relationship with Benjamin Bennett. You say the Mps tempt other women. However, he really cares for her it's different she's? Eighteen years old she's got this son Shane when she was pregnant from prostitution and at that night Benjaman as doing his job? He knows where rock scene is there's an address where he's going to go to Foothill Boulevard here, so she gets there and you describe what she sees in this strange place
and what she sees the photo so tell us a little bit more because it's fascinating as introduction of your book to find out Benjamin is so close. People are so close to apprehending him on this. One first murder tell us, as you do in the book a little bit about this incredible scene yeah, so so, Joan Apple shows up on this. Tipped over there in Oakland, and you know that was in the late 70s and you still can find prostitution in that same area today in two thousand and seventeen, so not alot of changed their but a deal struck. Basically Benjamin gives the God to the John, and at that time they didn't know who he was. They just do that. This John, which was Joe Nasso John being the term you
for people solicit. Prostitutes had been on, the street had been around and looking for the women to pay for section. So he wasn't. He was a stranger, but not a stranger and so Ben gives the signal. Yes, you know it's it's fine, and then he takes he Laos Rock scene to go with Joe, and he knows he lives over on foothill but he doesn't know or he thinks he knows where it is, but he ends up kind of making a mistake. So so, like you said, rock scene shows up. She gets into this apartment and she's starting to see stuff. That in mind you she's, she lived on the streets, she's been a prostitute, she's been exposed to things that the average person hasn't seen or heard of, and she gets into this department and she started to see stuff that just are the maker kind of wonder and so the description of what was in the the apartment specific
the mannequins women's building, like pantyhose photos on like the coffee table, women that appear to be partially dressed, some may to be unconscious. She starts to get kind of a feeling. There's there's got to be that that, oh, my gosh, you know what am I doing here. This doesn't seem right, but at the same time she seen a lot in her life, her short life and so and she's also trying to close the deal if you will, as far as making this transaction I think she gets to a point where it's like I gotta get out, and it's too late, Jo Nasos figured it out she gets hit over the head and his for may shun I'm giving us from the autopsies and stuff. So you know it's backed by medical support, but she basically gets knocked out over the head and
so have his way with with her body. Basically, allows her to kitty gilder. He he's now excited. He has his way sexually with her and then he he was hoping to get this the shot. What do you want? What Joe was talking about when he says that the perfect shot was you right to capture what a woman's face look like when they knew that Dactylis work near that kind of a fear of concealed concern, panic that kind of that kind images what Joe was trying to capture and what, in what was in a lot of photos on that coffee table. So he doesn't kill right away, but she ends up rock scene regains consciousness. Uh and now she's, trying to just survive and in I will do a lot to try to survive. She knows she's in a bad spot. She knows
This is not a joke. She knows it's not a sexual thing. This is the danger like I need to get out and she considers in things about her kid You know she's she's, trying to get out Joe starts yelling there are a lot and he's he's just basically at a point where he hadn't really considered murder before, but he did this time and he has a rant and rave telling her how she's it's like all the other women he's better than them. That kind of thing which was kind of an undertone throughout his the rest of the murders that he would commit. But at some point he decides that I've gotta kill this girl, so he basically strangled her to death uh and it's just you know so release for Joe, so he end up murdering rock scene and now he's got to figure out what to do with her body. But before you can even get that far then, because time has passed, then,
is looking for rock scene ends up getting over under foothill, shows up and he's demanding that Joe open the door, but the problem is bins at the wrong spot and that, unfortunately, because he didn't know exactly where Joe lives or where he was had this little kind of flop apartment gave Joe the opportunity to get away slip away, uh and that was what you were talking about being close. They they would have discovered her killed and Ben probably would have killed or brutally beaten, Joan Asota Because of what you have discovered. Have you gotten into that house and it would have been the end. Hopefully they are theoretically have a rain of murders committed by Joni. So so it was just one of those things where destiny connected rock scene to Joe and then then almost trying to save the day and almost did it and it just kind of opened up this whole case or two,
to years and years of him, tracking these girls and killing them. You talk about that because Ben is got an outstanding warrant. He ends up in the lockup for a month an rock scene is not even reported missing for quite awhile, and then you talk about him dumping the body in this ask Francisco Bay area up and then tell us what he does with police himself at the gas station. Tell us what happens after this in terms of what he does with the body and his interaction with police, so the the the disturbance of Ben trying to break into this apartment, to find his is prostitute, Slash lover. Obviously the police are call please show up Joe slips out the back with the body in his car, and the police arrive and they they detained,
then they run 'em out. He, not telling him a lot. He's obviously not being upfront with everything as far as nature of what was going on and what he thought might be going on. Obviously, because of his quote unquote career, and so they run him out find out. Anything warrants will take him away, but the mean time Joe is going north he's going northbound on the local major freeways he crosses over five hundred and eighty, which is a major the way in, on the Bay area. He's heading towards Fairfax, which is just kind of north. If you can imagine a San Francisco and he's making a decision hey, I need to get rid of his body but but one of the main things he did quite a bit in this case all be all, except for basically one of the victims that he left the
fine. He believes that he smarter than law enforcement and he's better than law enforcement, and he wants to leave the body in a spot where he knows will be found, and so he actually has a little location office, Sir Francis Drake Blvd. He takes it out. He goes travels w towards the Ann there's a road out there called log Anita's an he. He drops rock scenes body there and she's making and she's got some panties those wrapped around her an stuffed in her mouth, which will come back to full circle to help actually identify and convict show of these cases. But then he makes a phone call so easy dispose of the body. But he puts it in a spot where he knows law enforcement or somebody will stumble upon it and call law enforcement, but then he makes a phone call. I did not one hundred
percent confirmed that the phone call was Jonah. So the investigators, in this case from nineteen seventy seven from twenty ten tried but and Joe's never admitted to anything so he's never going to admit to this phone call. But what happens? dispatch received a call from a male caller advising hey, I think, I see what looks like a body dumped on Sir Francis Drake near Lagunitas, road and obviously from there. That's when this whole thing takes off so. Joe leaves, the area law enforcement is called. A deputy comes out to the scene. Insured must be finds rock scene in that. Just was the catalyst for the rest of this case right. Now what this Joe Nasso do has a habit of moving after he thinks
It might be a little bit of and he feels it necessary to move. But does he move an what's his next step in the life of Joe Nazel yeah, so he'll he'll move around in this part search Casey Cott Estate in the Bay area and in that he's married during this time, so yeah He has a wife, and so he living a double life, and we we often find in serial killer case is that these folk live double lives. And when you, when people find out you know, they just can't possibly believe that this person is the same monster that you know, law enforcement is saying they are so at the same time he murdered rock. He was still living with his wife. But he also stayed in the Bay area. He wasn't uh. He wasn't overly concerned that he's going
we caught because he thought he had left. No evidence behind and he was very meticulous and how he disposed of rock scene, and so he was under the impression that he wasn't in danger. So after a few after a few months go by. He actually decide hey. You know, I'm gonna go out and see. What's going on, you know on the strip looking for another prostitute and in this case he stumbles across another girl named Carmen Cologne in Carmine. Was another prostitute kind of working, the same general area that rock scene had been working and remember that, throughout probably from the early 70s, even into the 60s, when local prostitutes go missing, not a lot of done, and you know I'm in law enforcement.
Well. If somebody comes a report that their family member, who is a prostitute, is missing. We take the crime report or we take the missing persons report, but we really don't do much more. After that I mean it's just these people are adult They have traveled that can travel. They have access to money, it's very difficult to find them, so we don't lift them as as Endangered or suspicion that kind of stuff so with Carmen Harmon is the same thing but Norman had known it seems that she had known or had relations with uh Joe a few times because she was getting involved with the photographs, so Joe also paid women and did not always have sex with them, but he paid them to take provocative photographs. And that kind of tied in is staying with, the mannequins, the partially dressed mannequin, the pantyhose
status thing that he had, and so we kind of these photographs that we learned later were part of you know his his fascination with with women and stop these prostitutes. Most of them are a lot of photographs, and so he he picks up Carmine. He convinces you know they have a strike a deal for sex, but he also convinced there they can give her a little bit more money if she takes photographs these, what he called provocative photographs, and so again Joe has made made a deal basically with this girl with the car and then he takes her out and to kind of it, location up in the Oakland Hills, kind of a place not like lovers lane, if you will but a place where cars typically pulled,
so we need to find some juveniles, maybe kind of having their first kiss or whatever right and so Joe takes carbon out there. She has no concern at that point an they start to have sex in his car But Joe as he's messing with you know, other having lay Tiens is thinking. You know. I think this girl is probably going to look good if I can get her in lingerie and rapper and panties, doesn't get her in those provocative photos that he's he's kind of always infatuated with, and so he takes her home. He convinced her to do that he takes her home and, while he's posing her, for these, photographs is also kind of. He's very manipulative, and he was also very, very gifted at speaking, and so he would kind of manipulate these girls and convince them of what he was doing and because they're getting paid not much resistance. Was there
and so in this case with Carmen he he he is having photographs with their. They start kind of having relations again sexual relations, and he's working on tying her up with pantyhose an app one point: she's unaware of the situation because of the moment because of the situation and stuff she does. Really realize it, but he has been able to get pantyhose wrapped around her neck, an an as their as chose just about to climax, with her a second time George Lincoln on those pantyhose is with all of his might. He was in pretty good shape being an ex military guy. Instead any strangles Carmen with those pantyhose and once again he
the takes photos of her she's body nominees. Photos are later found. When is this case is finally get some wheels. You know thirty plus years later, but then he's he's. The difference between rock scene in Carmen is there's no pain coming. No, we look and for her, and he takes a little bit of his time. He goes and showers and then he heads out with another body that he's gotta get rid of now. You say August 13th, nine in seventy eight in the Contra Costa County, the naked and badly compose body in one hundred degree, temperatures animals insects taking their tool a lot of decomposition but they're trying to take fingerprints and skin from underneath the fingernails and the police speak to her sister. So what is the next step,
for police and what do they get little tidbit of information that they get from the sister regarding photography? So the so what happens is there's a report of a there's, a higher patrolman, their heads out to Contra Costa area, which is off of one of the major freeways in the San Francisco Bay Area, you know it would be e well e of where rock scene was dropped and there's a report of a cattle been shot and it at that time. There was a lot of ranches out there in a higher patrolman is not really geared to deal with cattle shootings, but it's supposedly a prominent cattle. Rancher type person and he's making a call until somebody basically orders this this higher patrolman out there, and he he thinks he's looking for a county ends up stumbling across Carmen.
And she is naked, like the first victim she's wrapped into have pantyhose on her and stuff, and so, so but memory after a year later and it's on a different side of the Bay area and it wasn't immediately connected to rock scene. But when their friends folks come out, they are able to grab some evidence from underneath her fingernails, which they believe is going to be skin fragments from the attacker 'cause. They believe you can murder. Obviously the way she's been found, it's pretty obviously she's been murdered and they also are able to find out that when they bring her back to the corner office. They were able to get her fingerprints and find out that she's been a state final. She has a dental cars Carmen either it's been able to find a records of her being booked in the Contra Costa County jail for prostitution. Charges of
kinda start looking at prostitution and and those kinds of things and then through those records they find her sister when somebody is put into a jail, they often leads are leaving emergency contact GEO requests that so that, if something happens to this person while they're in trustee, they can call him and advised him and what's going on with their family member, so they officers or I'm sorry detectives are able to track down. Carmen sister Anne. She almost immediately knows when she sees these detectives that something drastic has happened to Carmen and she knows at Carmines. You know she knows: she's a prostitute
You know Carmen's been given a black eye a few times, but she knows by the fact that the detective show up that there's probably more to it during the course of their discussion with her after breaking the terrible news of about Harmon turned her sir asking her about harming. She starts telling them about how her sister was meeting with the guy. That was not paying her to take provocative photographs and that she had a creepy feeling about the guy's house. You described it, but you know she need the money and Carmen sister kept trying to convince her not to and said she would help her and you know kept working on that karma kind of like the license? So that was a lead, though, for for the detectives 'cause. Now they know that she was a prostitute, they might have some dna from
skin underneath her fingernails and then you know there there's a possibility that there's somebody out there taking photographs of provocative photographs of prostitutes, so they thought they might have some leads there now, regardless of what they thought at that time. Of course, as you say in people might realize the case went cold and they ruled her death inconclusive so now Joe believe, the needed to move, and so he heads to San Francisco he attends photography classes at San Francisco State University in the late 70s and you talk about his wife Judith and she wanted a divorce, and you also work about his schizophrenic son. Charles
There is any thing that person that he may have had some sympathy or empathy, for it seemed to be his son, Charles, so tell us what he manage is to do and what kind of employment he gets in his new life or his life in San Francisco. So yeah a lot happens after car men's bodies discovered Joe decides that, although he believes he's well ahead of law enforcement, he's gotta leave the area in this fact that he was leaving, the area was used to, him to show that he knew what he was doing this wrong and it kind of went against his some of his tactics. He tried to use in court trying to represent himself for this capital murder case ends up getting a job. You end up divorced from from Judith. She knows he's up to no good, doesn't know about the serial killer stuff at all. But she knows he's up to no good they've had a struggling marriage for years.
So Joe takes up a job for an apartment manager in Sanford, Cisco, and he knew the area the mission district area very well because uh he had been picking classes out. There Photography and Joe was or Joe is gifted with the cat, camera. But he just chose to take pictures of things that you and I find we find it disgusting. We wouldn't you know the normal person wouldn't like to see these kinds of things, but that's what Joe was taking photographs of, but never allowed he gets a job at a place, an apartment building at eight hundred and thirty nine eleven worth ST in San Francisco, and why that's important is because interconnects Joe to the capital murder case against him, the while he's there, while he's still going to class, is he still
his nose is still attuned to the street life and he still trying to get prostitutes take photos with them. He still trying to sleep with prostitutes. You know that's what he knows he's been doing it for quite a long time and so he's he meets these people he's running this apartment complex. He actually has a opening for inner part and while he's there, he gets that somebody come to the store, pretty much sharia. She comes the door and often inquires about the apartment for rent and it just something about her. Just really got Joe excited and, and that was just the opening to another one of his killings. Now she's a little bit older woman and, and so tell us a little bit more about sharia and the predicament that you find yourself in in this apartment.
So she so Serena had just moved from from Lake Tahoe area. She was living with her daughter, and her daughter got engaged and they kind of had some some disc. It's about some stuff, and so she was like it's time for him for me to move and also she wasn't really She she didn't want to get in the way of her daughter and her her fiance and stuff. So she thought you know I always wanted to move to San Francisco. So let me go to San Francisco, so she moves out there. She meets Joe Joe gives her the apartment agrees to rent it her and then treated starts. Looking for jobs, you know she's looking for any kind of works, you can find she's retired from a career as kind of a secretary. If you will in the LOS Angeles County Sheriff's office actually, but she just kind of a free spirit. She like to go out. She like to interact with people
is now in San Francisco. She's got herself a little apartment, but she's not I have a lot of money to spare, so she applies for various jobs. Point, though during this time Joe starts wooing her. He starts and, of course, her she's, not interested, in that kind of relationship with him, but she's also slightly becoming desperate, because she's falling behind on rent, and she doesn't have the money coming in and Joe capitalizes on, that in his his way that he could. He manipulates the situation. It convinced is Sheree to take photographs and he would pay her, but not provocative at first. He just convinces her that they'll, be you know, professional photography, headshots mostly convinces or probably be. She could use those too
To help her find a job, and so she agrees hesitantly. She agrees The money was too too good. That drill was offering an over the course of a period of time. She starts letting Joe take photographs up her. In suits like professional outfits, nothing. Sexual nature at all. Now he's a persistent person so tell us what happens to her and how do friends discover that she is a victim, so Joe convinces her to take photographs. He keeps trying to give her a lot of wine he's trying to get her to get drunk. He starts developing feelings for her. You know basically There's some characteristics about her that reminds him of his Ex wife. She's older, though,
all the prostitutes in the area she sophisticated in Joe just really keeps trying to commander her relationship with her. She keeps shutting him down, but she does eventually pose and he does pay her for some slightly provocative photographs and and Joe's just head over heels for her and while they're taking these photographs- and some of it was provocative- she she's falling for her and he wants to be with her, but she keeps denying him and eventually Joes starts to get frustrated. He he have several sessions with her. He starts thinking about having relations with her and if she won't willingly do it that he may have to either put drugs in her wine or maybe have to take. It
from her unwillingly on her half so uh they go back and forth. They keep working Joe keeps working on trying to get with her and then eventually, he just basically wants to pay her for sex, and she just gets extremely pool. Doesn't want to do that at all, and he sees like he's getting close so having relations with her and she looked at it Options, she leaves and says, hey I got to go and she just lives up the upstairs, and so it's pretty easy for to to get home, and so he her her go so she's kind of like with a with a potentially dangerous situation that she's not completely aware of so. She makes it out of the house that day or that apartment that day then he starts working on getting her to take photographs with these pantyhose, which was similar to
What he was doing with Carmen an rock scene and then finally, he basically tries to get the upper hand on her. If you will start to tighten down on some pantyhose and strangle her, but she fights it pretty well, she makes it to the floor, but Fortunately Joe just overpowers her and strangled her to death and once again he's he finishes what he's doing uh he doesn't take a shower, and then he concocts a plan on how to dispose of her body. Ok, we're going to use this as an opportunity to stop just for a second to talk about our sponsor smile, direct club, smile, direct club, straightens and brightens most miles for
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an off the cost of that impression. Kit and the evaluation. Pardon me by visiting smile, direct club, dot com, slash true, that's smile, direct club, dot com, slash true And this is unavailable in North Carolina. That's Smiledirectclub, dot, com, slash true. Chris. We were talking about Joe Nasos next move he as the manager of this apartment building. Naturally he is questioned by police, he's, evasive and nothing. He says nothing that he has done, no information leading the police to lay any chargers or suspect them in this murder. So what does he do next yeah? So he skated that because he was actually interviewed by detectives about that murder because sure his body was found later
close by in Tiburon, which is just across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco uh. And so but Joe because he was questioned once again believes he's completely in charge of the situation nobody's going to figure him out. He's left no evidence. They got enough: an army kind of mentality, uh and so he he basically, although he's a little bit, hesitant he decides I'm going to leave the area first. He wasn't, but he decides to leave the area in this relocation. He ends up in a place called Yuba City, which is now source of Sacramento, so he's traveled, a good amount of time, east and north it's about two one, slash two hours or so from San Francisco, so he- moved on and he's he's found a place to stay, and he's kind of getting routed to the Yuba City area and.
Spending time in the downtown area, and this was in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three. So we went from seventy seven to seventy eight. Now we jumped into the 90s and now earns one thousand nine hundred and ninety three. So we're talking time is going by and law enforcement's gotten nowhere with three cold homicide cases. So you get them to Yuba City, and he knows how to pick out prostitutes. He knows how to find that the the underbelly of a of a community, if you will and in April of ninety three he ends up. Meeting a gal named PAMELA Parsons in PAM was uh a woman that was it was a local and she was actually a waitress uh but Joe when he saw her believe that that she may do other things on the side and he convinced stop that she may actually be a prostitute,
or at least somebody that he could film 'cause he's still looking for. One shot that perfect photo. It's similar to this. You know the surface. Talk about that the wave you know they call it that one way that was just the most perfex way for them chose looking for that perfect photo. So over the course of a couple of weeks he starts going to this restaurant quite a bit and strikes up conversations with PAMELA and they or to become friends, but the whole time Joe, is trying to figure out what's PAMELA's real story which she maybe take money for sex he's attracted to her. Or maybe he would let her she would let him photograph him so he's locked into another target. Basically, he's he's
investors out that one way or another he's gonna have relations with her and what goes wrong. What? What, if anything, is, is the motivation for him to kill? What, with all these women was, is this feeling that women are superior to men and their especially inferior to him. The strange part is, he was married and he he never abused his wife and then she divorced him taking the power and control away from him? So you would think that that would have been one of the key some reasons, but we don't know precisely why he did these killings other than what he's been willing to, to share, but he's very circular when he talks, I communicated with him over several months, I was going to meet him personally but
he's in San Quentin and that's a short ride for me, but you started trying to learn delete the situation. He started wanting to have money. And he do it. Obvious. He wasn't and actually tell me anything that I I could use to help me with my list and ultimately what I was trying to do before this book was to find out who the other four were on his list and try to get some closure for some families PAMELA she's. She makes the mistake of telling him that she's had a down on her luck, she hasn't paid her rent. So he ends up convincing her to take money for photographs and saying he's done before with the other girls And once again, basically he he does the same thing. If, he's he's on repeat mode he eat those PAMELA and then decides. He needs to get rid of
body as well. Now he just continues. They fight The body within a few days, four days later, you say, and what does that give police? We know these things are going call but tell us what police get if anything for any leads from that whatsoever. Yeah, I didn't get a meeting get a lot of weeds because she was kind of in a desolate area, but it will wasn't it was sort of off the beaten path which was uncharacteristic of Joe because before it was very up front, so I think subconsciously. He was probably realizing that he needed to be careful with the with what he was doing, so he wasn't spotted, but even I tried to do everything you could do to make sure that there was no evidence. There When the forensic folks came out to the scene, it was. It was
This, unfortunately frustrating for everybody involved, because there was a human in female body there- and she was obviously deceased- but there just wasn't like tire tracks or red or dna or just you know nothing that the investigators could could grab and give to a and say here you go, go get him and so didn't really get a lot with hers as well and with PAMELA's case an because They didn't they didn't, have a lot of leaf chase and it left Joe out there get it. You know able to strike again. If now you go to August. Ninety four will come back to SARA Dylan, But- and he is watching this woman for two weeks is another thing: he's he stocks these women. He watches these women and then he
Ki Ki, Ki Keys in on these women, and has it in My name is to have them. So you talk about a Tracy Tafoya and again, he's talking about photo so tell us about Tracy the Fauria and her photo session yeah, so he he doesn't similar to some of the other patterns he does move from. You like, but he just goes a little bit north, basically over the Yuba River, which is a short distance to town called Linda he's just over there and he's just he's just lurking, I mean that's. What Joe did he would sit and lurk, he would watch people for hours and then he would just somehow pick something about these girls. That would make them targets so he's in Linda California, which is just north of where he had just disposed of uh.
Pamela any he's Hughes king on the main drag for prostitutes Earl evening. Hours sunny outside and all that kind of stuff and hands up being this gallon. He didn't know her name at all, but he Tracy wasn't one that he was watching for quite awhile we also decided that he wanted to have sex with her. He did not and silly or in the beginning, decide that this is somebody that he was going to kill. He was merely just basically trying to have sex with her and he assumed- and it was correct that she was a prostitute, so he he sizes her up. If you will they kind of start talking about having sex, but then Joe has that thought about the perfect photo again, and he just instantly start talking to her about letting him tie her up. It take these provocative photos.
And she agrees, she's she's looking to make money. She gets to this guy's house and it's set up inside. Like almost you, professional, there's lights and it's clean, but she also sees what Rock scene had seen on the table, which is just hundreds of photographs, laid out It's just pictures of women. And there's you know partially dressed summer naked and she sees these photos, but she doesn't really give him too much weight because she's there to make some money and it was good money that Joe was offering an agreed to wear some lingerie. She agrees to be tide up uh an they kind about barter back and forth. If you will
he didn't, tries to offer a little money for sex. She has no problem with that, decides to do it, and then he started trying to really work on getting those getting some pantyhose You know in a position that you could drop him around her body, specifically her neck. So that if you wanted to or so and came across his mind to to try to strangle or what those pantyhose that he could and sure as heck ends up strangling Tracy as well. And then dumping her body near near, Emma Terry in the town of Marysville, which is just n NE of Linda I. So this fast food word here to this. It's interesting to the house he's on probation. This is again very, very
to this story, the role of probation officers and probation itself in this so tell us the situation that he is wise on probation and how it comes to be that he is in violation of that probation. So Joe's been a he's, also been arrested for minor, very minor misdemeanor things actually start. From the 60s in the 60s. There are major in the 1960s. He was arrested twice for one for once for a pen one for sexual assault, both of which the police, basically let him go, and this is the sixty so So you can dash police all you want, but in the 60s things were done a lot differently than they are nowadays and they basically ran him out of town. And now is the end of it, but
uh later on a life Joe becomes. He has money, he's had some investments he's made some money as a photographer, but he has this thing where he just can't stop stealing stuff. It's stuff stuff, so he ends up doing several misdemeanors and he finds himself on probation because he commits enough petty theft misdemeanors to basically be the equivalent of a felony, and this is before laws things in California, so that you could commit pretty much any crime and walk free now in California, but he's placed on probation he's in California. He's now killed two girls and he decided that it's time to go. And he puts in a request to have his his Probation transferred to Nevada and what was happening unbeknownst to his probation jobs here in California and to anyone else Joe had been sneaking off if you will to Nevada and bought a place out there
I think it was on Medgar St Street, which is on the outskirts of Reno and so through a request he made. His probation was transferred to re, no well in Reno the Department of Public services, there super aggressive. And they started doing spot checks on Joe quite a bit, and it was it really rubbed him wrong because he he loads. He really loves law enforcement. Hates law almost as much as he hates women and really sorry and frustrated by the surprise visits by his shop. Sir. Well, one of these visits, probation officer, shows up unannounced and checks on Joe and when he finds Joe to have He starts looking around the house seeing some things that are kinda, make it a
What's going on here, the house would be something if you wanted to paint a picture of I'm of the Hoarders house where there's stacks of things all over, turn in corners on tables in bookshelf and stuff, but he discovers that Joe has a advertisement in his shirt pocket for the sale or the purchase of a firearm and that's prohibited by somebody who's on the operation officer actually makes a phone call to the number on the the advertisement and the person on the other end says yeah. I talked to that guy he was trying to buy my fire. With that information, the probation officer arrest Joe, and put some on a violation. It takes him to the to the local jail for some reason, and I wasn't able to get exactly why
or a really good, solid answer as to why, but I wasn't probation officer at one time and all I can Hey is that when you work in law enforcement, you get you get these hunches or gut feelings, but something about the situation at Joe's home in Nevada, batter his probation officer wondering if and he asked his coworkers workers do, a a spot, search like a full search of Joe's house. We- not completely out of normal, but he was, being charged with trying to buy a firearm, and so the probation officers looking for more evidence to support that charge which be a new the only charge for jokes all right, so he calls because his buddies what the probation department they show up in a star search in the house
While they're searching the house or finding things that you and I just wouldn't keep in our house- mannequin is partially dressed, mannequins rooms locked from the outside like going down the hallway in the rooms locked from the outside piles of women's clothing piles of any hose just stuff that you you know you really. Wouldn't see in a normal person's home, which starts kind of getting the hair on the back of the net of these investigators, these probation officers and stand up because of that they did further well as are searching the house for evidence of more crimes. Because now they're they're, convinced that shows up to no good one of the probation officers find this piece of lined paper. I'm kind of in binder a paper binder. If you will or paper folder I misaligned piece of piece of paper scanned. It's handwritten notes
They don't know for sure at the time. But the issue was Joe's writing and it literally said on top of the the peak piece of paper, the list or I'm sorry list of ten. That's what it says on top and then it just list stuff like girl, Neil near Helds, Mendocino, county girl, near Port Costa, girl near log in so you have these things that list one of a Seven was lady from eight hundred and thirty nine eleven and these officers look at that list and look at the house they're standing in and they instantly feel like something Is really bad with this list they instantly assume the worst. They call Joe's probation officer at the jail and say hey, you need to finish cooking Joe and need get back out here, and that was the catalyst for this entire case being cracked open and what
Add to the actual apprehension of Joneso for six known murders. You talk about the task force was formed quickly after this, and also what you call Joes Rape diary tell us where they found this and just we won't give it away, but what they found in there are calling it rape diaries. So. What was and what was going yeah so so, obviously when they found that list and when his probation officer showed up back at the house, the toward the house up, I mean they just went through it. The open or they unlock doors. They went through a lot of the stuff in that house because it can. Mission information allowed them to do that, plus he was being arrested for new charges. In the same area where they found that handwritten written note. They found a Brown
add, a leather book that would later be called or termed the rape diary, imma, kill, Nassos rape Diary and this thing had over two hundred entries of great oceans of what Joe is doing to women and young girls, basically throughout the country and even abroad, when he was in the air force back in the fifties. I mean it was very damaging device, I'm sorry no device but book that was used against throw in court and with that with that rape diary- and it was very gruesome, it was very descriptive- and I didn't put any of that in the book is eight at some point you just got to stop. I don't. I just have a tough time. Writing some of these things, so I just
don't include that some of the details, I feel, are just not appropriate. Even for a true crime, author, unfortunately, but couple you know what that book or the diary if you will and that list of ten that they discovered basically kind of panic, sunk in and everybody that was involved with the Nevada dpa Yes, essentially called in everybody. They up calling FBI. By the end up calling law enforcement, they put out kind of a an email. If you will to the detective girls throughout the California into Nevada, saying hey we, This guy. This is sort of what we found. What do you guys think
Does anybody have anything to add to this, and although they had assumed that the list might be for for victims, they just didn't have any proof at that time, uh. So what ends up happening is uh. They they start this. They called them asshole task force, and so they basically try to make sense of that list of ten, and so they start assuming the worst it's probably murder victims and they start trying to figure out what that little list. What little bit of information he put in that list? You know that I read to excerts from and that are in the book. They basically were able to do the case and one of them that you should that kind of should Kroger memory. Is he live the row on that list, the one
that you wrote it says Oh lady, seven, lady from eight hundred and thirty nine eleven works. Well, if you remember Joe, is the apartment manager three thousand nine hundred and eleven worth, and that's where Sharia live when she was found murdered so that kind of that research and that kind of connection may the task force believe that this was a list of ten murder victims. What's fascinating about this, and this is. Somewhat unusual and get this all the time is that nozzle was in jail on a probation violation and doesn't know anything about the investigation? That's going on at the same time and his Narcisse
cystic overly confident, behavior, wouldn't allow him to consider it so, but, as you say in there that this, this is really as a circumstantial case, so they're trying to build a strong, a circumstantial case, trying to build the stronger cases they can in this year in this very short year to be able to take this to make capital cases out of the evidence, so tell us about what goes on behind the scenes in that one year an what does NAS. Oh no, About that yeah so you're absolutely correct. He had no idea. He was just kind of hanging out in custody. He knew that on the new violation of probation violation in the new charge that he was going to stay in custody for a year he took it to trial and he lost, and so he was he was given a year basically has
probation violation that was the max amount of time and you're right there Geordie of what they had with law enforcement had was circumstantial evidence, but as they start picking apart, that list of ten a lot of people by the way a lot of people are involved, in this case listen to them in the book and try to give everybody to credit, but you're talking about a massive investigation. So I may have missed a few people, but my main contact was a Marine County sheriff's detective at the time name. Ryan Peterson is now a sergeant there, but he took the reins, because Marin County took a lot of ownership in this case, because rock scene was the first victim that they uh we're able to forensic Lee Thai Joneso two, and
so because she was the first murder and your first Murray that they tied to Joni's those list of ten line of those guys took over. Did it let's say take over, but they had a stronger lead in to this case and Joe ends up meeting actually rest in the moment he comes out of custody, but Ryan's able to do is in a lot of telling a lot of people are apologist case but Ryan in his in that task. Nasso task force were able to uh bring enough evidence law actually circumstantial to the to the Marin County District attorney's office. Specifically, one primary da rosemary and convince her, that Joneso was a murderer and that this list consisted of these victim
that they were able to connect, and so it starts with Joni so's wife's dna is located. On panty hose that were found inside rock scenes throat, and so that was like the deal breaker, how is the thing that, just through Ryan, in the whole task force kind of in a friend If you will 'cause now they had what they believe confirm. Murder victim in serial killer. Identify ride? It was his wife's dna, but obviously it was you a connection to Joni, so it was his wife
So it turns out the pair that you used to study stuck down rock scene, throw it was actually a pair of his wife's pantyhose, but as they work down that list, they start putting together. You know girl, near Port Costas, Carmen Cologne little Mirror Lagunitas, although it was misspelled, was rock scene. The levenworth address United talked about. There was it's a girl would lane, which was a girl we did discuss, but Sir Dylan, the girl from window, which is number nine, which was you the county and then a girl from their usual cemetery, which was traced to four. So that's how he did it, but in this they had to scramble. I know it sounds like a long time. A year is a long time, but when you're putting together a homicide case in this case, you know a serial killer case that started in nineteen. Seventy, seven
I mean you have ten victims unless it's definitely not a lot of but they were able to get Rosemary the DA to Marin County too secure an arrest warrant for Joe for four murders, so Joe sitting in jail to bring this thing full circle Jostyn in jail. His release dates coming up. He has no dear what's about to him, but he's released from the county, jail and walks out and meets Ryan, detective Ryan Peterson, and about eight other law enforcement officials and he's just like peaches. These dumb families like what you know. What do you guys? Who are you? What are you doing here and Ryan looks at him and says? Well, I'm arresting you for murder and he said: do you Joe responds with a chuckle? Well, do you have cause.
And Ryan says yeah. We have caused an. We have interest form for any place, handcuffs on him and put some macaron and Joe doesn't say anything for quite awhile, so he was very smug. Very flippant thought he was you are going to be free. Definitely thought he's going to get away with these murders and now the moment he's released from custody for the formation violation is now being arrested and charged with four murders. It's incredible to that dramatic scene that you have, and he doesn't have any idea that it's amazing now you capture that, but also in this once he's arrested police believe that you know the ultimate would be have a confession: have the person not ask lawyer explain the situation, though, that this guy has a key and they did a lot of monies made enough money that he could certainly represent himself, and then you talk about two for two it if things that he decides to
do one at trial an one affecting his his bail? So his own representation tell us about his decision on who to represent him at trial and how that impacts. This case dramatically yeah as a as a as an officer or I'm a I'm, a deputy sheriff, I'm actually it's urgent now as well and I've seen a lot of cases. I've been involved a lot of cases over the last seventeen years and Joe made a critical error. He made a critical mistake. He is, he is an intelligent guy. He still alive he's on death row that guy is actually intelligent, but that sentiment that he was a boy. Of and above law enforcement in above women was actually his demise, and it was kind of interesting for me when I was looking at this case and corresponding.
Can. I was just thinking you know this guy was very close, extremely close To getting away with murder with one thousand and ten plus murders, he does not give a confession. He adamantly denies everything call. The case he's in later, because evidence is brought up, will change his story, but me, really he throws a curveball too Brian Peterson in the DA any marches into court. He has the money to afford attorney. He could a high paying attorney, but he surprises the court by telling him after they tell him, he's being charged, In a capital murder case and with the murders of four women, he says thank you very much and I'll be representing myself. It just kinda trying to shock the whole courtroom. I mean you're talking,
Seasoned investigators, you're talking about a judge, he's been around awhile DA's, been around a while it's very uncommon for a person being charged for capital murder case to represent themselves, and that was a crucial error for Joe, because some of the more damaging evidence actually came against Joe. During the preliminary hearings at the infancy of his court case. So how do you add a normal attorney? Probably any attorney at this point: opinion. If you had just any attorney at all, he likely would have been released on bail because the case was all circumstantial so because the dna from rock scene was not known at that point,
They would get it just a few weeks later, but Joe had ability to hire an attorney did not. He wanted to represent himself 'cause. He thought he was what he said was. He was representing himself because he had a few small claims. Courts, appearances and he won. So you felt like you could handle capital murder case when asked that his mind set. That was his mentality, so you know small claims. Court cases are vastly different in capital, murder cases and so at Pappas attitudes. What are really her show so consequently stayed custody the entire time, and in doing so his lack of knowledge of how the court proceedings work.
Prolong the case, which then gave law enforcement even more time, and they even did things like the exam, the the body of Hi Tracy. I believe and we're able to conclude that Her death was actually a murder and then some evidence and stuff from that scene was was used against show it just all worked against him by simply not letting normal attorney represent. Him now Some people fare pretty. Well, obviously, we know the end result here, so he didn't do well at all, but you say that he was rather even surprisingly, despite his intelligence, incredibly inept at trial missing all kinds of other opportunities, again very fortuitous for the
district attorney and everyone else involved yeah. He he totally blew seeing this in court and then what happened? What a one, also one other thing that really hurt Don Joan Court was because the reactions of the. People in a courtroom to when Joe was making these blunders and when he was Munich, eight ing with the judge or with witnesses. 'cause remember he cross examined witnesses for this case and he brought in some people that he thought would be character witnesses for him, because people were kinda so
you'll chuckle. We kinda like rolling their eyes like look at this guy. Look, you know Joe sorry to get angry and the violence and anger that he had when he killed his victims began to show up in court and he would have violent, extremely violent outbursts and called the district attorney. The detectives in the room and the judge, just terrible names go on a rampage in screen a call names being a space, and so it actually was another example of how he had no control and the one thing Joe Nast so always wanted. How was control, and so it kind of crumbled, his whole kind of how much she these MOE and the narcissism and all that stuff started to fade away because he thought he was in control and he was losing
in the court room, and so it really worked against him. The jury saw that and just was convinced without a doubt that this guy was was violent and angry enough to kill somebody. This is obviously dramatic for police and all the police that the live with this case for a long time, and also people like scenes. Brother Larry and you talk a little bit about larries journey through this as well. So just tell us a little bit about little bit about Larry story in this yeah, so Larry Larry was a huge proponent of rock scene. It was big kid sister. He loved her tremendously when detectives came and talk to him when they figured out who she was. I would she was found. You know he knew something was wrong with his baby.
Mister and it hit him really hard. I mean it's everybody hard, but Larry kind of wish that he had been the victim. You know he was Is that distraught about the situation? He came to court every day. He did provide information to law enforcement Dallas helpful, but he also became kind of a at times when he came to court because he would he would posture, he would do things, he would say things to the to the media and stuff is, he even went as far as he had this large Banco, a full size bronco where he would write messages, um. He new media would be coming to the hearings, and so he would write these messages on the side of his bronco and stuff, but he was there every day he gave testimony. He was a huge proponent of the justice system and
enforcement wanted closure for his his family. And then, when Joe was found guilty, you know he he had a quote of just you know: hey they asked him. What do you think Now- and he said I hope he just kill- turn it off. So he says everybody a bunch of money and in grief Bob speak. He was speaking about nice. O Leary was a. He was a huge asset for law enforcement, I lost a little bit during the trial, which can happen at any at any. I'm especially when you lose a family member and details come out about these cases, but overall he was a big help for law enforcement so and he felt he felt a pretty strong sense.
Closure when Joe was found guilty, so that was kind of a good thing to see and hear about this case. So you talk about the list of ten and he was convicted for six or four that was convicted of four. He was convicted of four, and two of them were tide to him and used for the sentencing phase of his case And that's we forgot to mention that one of the circumstantial evidence very strong evidence that the passport for a woman named Sarah Dillon who was murdered in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two was at at his property, so tell explain how these two women were not solved murders but yet influenced his sentence, NG yeah! So so strangely enough, Shourya patent, even though she
that part that apartment complex with him. She she was not Joe, is not officially charged with her murder. Officially. He was charged with rock scenes, Carmines, PAMELA's and Tracy's so Sharia was not used as a charging, but use at the scent hearing the other one was Sarah Dillon and Sarah sort of fit the mold of the girls that he was interested in. She was. Out in the area where when he moved to you be in Linda in that area. She was out there. She was. Sarah was a huge fan of Bob Dylan found. Her real name was actually Renee Shapiro, but she she went by the name of Sarah Dillon, which was the name of Bob Dylan's wife.
So she was a huge fan. Some would say a little bit little bit over the top, but she was she's harmless. But she was a huge fan. Sure school was found. Law enforcement was able to figure out the identity of this goal by tracking down Sarah's biological mother and then, when this case broke and the police served a search warrant on a couple saved. Closet boxes that Joe had over one hundred and forty thousand dollars in one of them, but in one of the other safe deposit boxes, they found her passport and they also found a bob. Dylan came that she wore religiously, like every single day all day and so those two pieces of evidence, although circumstantial. We knew Joe kept trinkets from his murders were used to
convinced the jury to seek the death Tony against Joe and so the faith of the other suspected cases from the list. Any progress at all any hope for progress. What's the status, there's no hope- and I hate to even admit that, but I've swallow that pill for awhile now Oh nice, oh sits on death row believing that he is innocent, believing that you had nothing to do with these murderers and believing that uh, oddly enough that he still in control it's my belief that he holds on to those four victims, because
yes, that's the way it is he's kind of like that kid. It takes his ball and walks away is pouting. He's sitting on death row still shocked that he was convicted of these murders and he, my intent when I was sending letters back and forth and when he started to get uh less less when he started to get I don't know if this is makes sense, but it seems like the way he was talking to me in the letters became more agitated. When I was trying to get information about these cases. Sure one thing that was noted by Ryan, the detective who arrested Joanne, testifying brought that case to court was the angle of Saying: hey Dro, just tell us, you know who these girls were, because we need closure, absolutely backfired. When Ryan
try to use that with Joe, and he had interviewed him for four hours at one point and then two hours a second time when they got to that point. Where Joe would connect himself circumstantially to these some of these victims and then they would try to plead with him about closure and about the victims. Joe, would instantly stop talking. So I think when I started asking him about these other girls on the list, it turned him off completely. In fact, He stopped talking to me the letter stopped he stopped talking to me shortly after I tried to figure out who these girls were. I had visions of grandeur. I had hoped that I could figure it out and close some cases for some agencies and bring some closure. But I failed. Unfortunately, was one of the tougher parts about this story that I had to deal with and live with, but Joe knows absolutely
Oops absolutely knows where these girls are at knows who they are and This won't give it up um. So it's a shame, yeah. Well, it's not ashamed that you've written this find book shed light on a incredible series of murders and rapes, history, a lifetime of rape and violence and then murder and certainly looks like he could be responsible for a lot more than even ten Certainly I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about list of ten for those people that might want Look at your other work. Do you have a facebook page website tell us so people might contact you or check out your other stuff yeah. If you typed in my name's C L Sweeney on Amazon, the only person with that name, you'll see my work come up and then on a use me on Facebook, it's backslash he,
Cl Swinney, and I use that for everything, Twitter Linkedin everywhere, I'm at social media wise, it's Cl Swinney and then uh. I do a lot of giveaways and stuff on Facebook. So if you follow me or connect with. Facebook. I tend to give out paperback and Kindle these are my books and usually I'll sign 'em. So right, if anybody is interested, look me up yeah. It sounds great. I want to thank you once again coming on talk about list to ten the true story of serial killer. Joseph Nazo. Thank you very much else when he hope to talk to you again soon good night, all right, sir. Thank you so much. Thank you and now I thought from Geico Motorcycle. It took fifteen minutes to take a spirit, animal quiz online. Please be the cheetah. These be the cheetah and learn your animal. Isn't the cheetah, but the far appealing blobfish.
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-31.